Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 06:05 AM

We have drifted a bit from MacColl to Brecht ~~ tho there is the connection of their being both avowedly left-wing propagandists with an avowedly didactic purpose. What I always feel so off-putting in Brecht {alienatory in a sense quite other then the Verfremdungseffekt at which he claimed to be aiming}is that he never seemed to know when he had made his point, but would pertinaciously go on making it over and over and over again, and then make it once more, & then one more time: till one could scream. Was it because he thought the proletarian audience at which he was aiming was too thick to get it the first [or even the second or third or nth] time? How patronising. And this from one who prided himself as a thoroughly professional man of the theatre. I always valued the story of his rehearsing the Berliner Ensemble while there was some sort of anti-authoritarian riot going on outside. A few rioters threatened by Soviet tanks crept into his Schiffbauerdamm Theatre for refuge and disturbed the concentration of his cast and himself. "Get those bloody amateurs out of my theatre," he yelled. Perhaps apocryphal, but se non è vero, è ben trovato & all that.

~M~

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 05:42 AM

That didactic old fraud Brecht - unAmerican to boot! From Ronald Hayman's biography of him - another didactic old fraud maybe?
"Bertolt Brecht is the most influential playwright of this century, and probably the greatest writer to emerge from the confused cultural milieu of Weimar Germany. Though he had only spasmodic success during his life, he has, since his death in 1956, been the subject of increasing study and acclaim. His plays are constantly being produced; his verse is considered some of the best of its time. Yet the complex and interesting character behind this resonant literary voice has remained an enigma.
Mischievous yet earnest, unscrupulous yet idealistic, exploitative yet compassionate, Brecht was a man of contradictions who recognized the value of ambiguity as a deliberate means of artistic expression. He saw literature as an instrument of change, and many of his ideas were rooted in practicality; yet his social and political commitment always accorded with his sense of fun and entertainment. Brecht's personal and artistic development took place against a background of violent changes, both private and national -from his carefree early life in Augsburg, through political storms in the Germany of the 1930s, two marriages and countless affairs, the traumas of exile, to his role as East Germany's literary figurehead."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 11:47 AM

Vic, thanks for that! The more things change, the more they stay the same, eh?

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 11:33 AM

Vic,

1966 would indeed be most likely year of publication. I used to have a copy and was surprised to find how much of that article I could recall after 45 years. Davenport and his woolly use of terms.....

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 10:46 AM

Fair piece indeed ~~ tho I can't quite unquestioningly accept the description of that occasionally cogent & mordant, but more often sententious and didactic old fraud, Bertholt Brecht, as "the most incisive analyst of modern times"!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 08:54 AM

Serendipity being what it is, I was looking through my huge collection of old folk music magazines this morning for something else when I came across this editorial article in a long extinct magazine called FOLK MUSIC BALLADS & SONG. This issue (No.2) is not dated but it appears to come from 1966. Neither is the author of the editorial named but we read that the managing editor is KARL DALLAS. The writer admits that he was not at the (mainly) Davenport / MacColl discussion which is referred to above in this thread, but to me he seems to sum up the known positions of the two main protagonists quite well and calls for a sensible middle group between what he sees as two extreme positions. The article has the title:-

"TIME FOR A TRUCE"
THE SINGERS' Club of London recently organised a con­frontation between Ewan MacColl, Alex Campbell, A.L. Lloyd and Bob Davenport on the subject of the future of the folksong revival.   We have heard various reports of the occasion, from the fans, followers or disciples of the various protagonists, which show the others up in various shades of black.   -But, frankly, we did not go. There have been similar discussions before.    The old Lon­don Folk Music Centre had MacColl and Davenport at it, along with Leon Rosselson, Stephen Sedley and John Marshall.    Nothing very constructive emerged from that particular meeting and there was nothing to indicate that the Singers' Club meeting would be any better.    From what we hear, it was worse.
What did emerge from both these meetings was that the basic divergence of opinion is not between the Dylanites and the traddies, nor between the purists and the commercialists, nor yet again between the serious students and the entertainers.
The only argument of any significance is between the intell­ectual dissection wing of the revival, headed by MacColl and anti-analytical primitivism, represented by Davenport. To an outsider, there would not seem to be much quarrel between the two.   Both profess, sincerely, to be passion­ately concerned with the tradition.   Both, in their quite different ways, are performers of tremendous stature.   One can quarrel that MacColl's analyses of the sound of tradition are over-intellectual on the one hand, or based on insuff­icient evidence on the other.
One can complain that Davenport does not appear to make any real distinction between popular music and the folk tradition, and that anything "of the folk" can be considered as traditional.
One can point outh that MacColl sounds like no traditional singer in the archives of recorded song, and yet still be chilled to the marrow by his rendering of one of the great old ballads he has brought back into the common repertoire. One can become impatient at Davenport's obscurantism, his woolly use of terms like "middle class" and "working class" which are used to mean simply "bad" and "good", or "them" and "us". Yet when he sings The   Lambton Wairm followed by Hanging   on   the   old   Barbed Wire, it is still possible to learn something from him about living traditions.
The real point about MacColl and Davenport is that they are not contradictory, they are complementary. Folksingers have never been the brainless noble savages Davenport would have us believe.    If literacy dealt the first great blow at the tradition, then what of the broadsheet ballads, which used literacy to spread folk songs throughout the land in the greatest explosion in folk culture before the present day?
Davenport refuses to let his songs be printed, and yet many of the music hall songs he professes to love were born in print, and were sold to the semi-literate classes that created the popular culture of the music hall. What of the Catcheside-Warrington songbooks that can still be found in colliers' front parlours throughout the north-east?   Like many great artists, folk musicians of any calibre find it difficult to talk about their art in any other way than the music itself, so it s hardly surprising, especially with a tradition that has been bashed about like ours, that not many folk musicians or singers are articulate about their work.   But you do have the occasional stylist like Joe Heaney, who can analyse his own technique of decoration. And Jack Elliot of Birtley was no mindless child of nature, unaware of what he was doing!
MacColl's antagonism to the depredations of the mass media have blinded him, perhaps, to the valuable and creative effects of enjoyment in the appreciation of folk music. Cerebral analysis is not the only way to approach culture. Bertholt Brecht, the most incisive analyst of modern times, found room for the belly laugh while still cutting away with his intellect at the ills and follies of modern life. Great theatrical craftsman that he is, MacColl has the technique to become one of the great popular performers of our time, who could use the mass media on his own terms, without sacrificing his integrity, which is unquestioned. He could also be criticised for his love of the exotic, which colours his comparisons of nativeborn traditions with those of Central Europe and Asia.   Complexity for its own sake is no criterion of cultural vigour; many a great society van­ished up its own anus in a great flourish of arabesques. If debaters in this still infant revival of ours were willing to define their terms, confine their discussions to what is rather than what might be, listen to what the other fellow was saying and consider it on its merits, avoid falling back on personal abuse when the argument started going against them, consider their own positions as critically as their opponents', there would be room for polemic.    Indeed, "Folk Music" magazine was started with the aim of promoting discussion.
But the time has come for calling a truce.   What unites us is more important than what divides us.   What we can learn from you, whoever you are, is probably greater than what you can learn from us.   The real enemy is the mass media, which will try to kill folk and popular culture, and if they cannot kill it they will emasculate it, and if they cannot emasculate it, they will pervert it,   and if they cannot pervert it they will feed on it.
MacColl and Davenport, and anyone else who is in the re­vival for more than just personal glory or profit, have a com­mon interest in building up something that can resist that sort of onslaught.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 06:23 AM

Derek Schofield wrote:-
"(Though hopefully the Bert Lloyd biography will eventually be published.)"

Gosh! I have just seen some pigs with DA tattooed on their backs flying past my window.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 04:55 PM

Jim wrote:
When Ben Harker interviewed us for his book (which also has a fair number of inaccuracies BTW) he commented ....

Harker's biography and MacColl's Journeyman complement each other. The former often fills in the details of what the other ignores.

But Harker's biography will be a standard work on this very important figure of the folk revival.

It would be very useful, therefore, for Jim to identify and publish the inaccuracies (here, if no-where else).

Incidentally, although there are many biographies of the key, and not so key, figures in the American folk revival, the only biography of the English revival is the Harker one on MacColl. (Though hopefully the Bert Lloyd biography will eventually be published.)

Keeping to the theme, I saw MacColl several times at folk clubs and at the celebration of his work in London (when the Stewart family book was launched). Can't remember a conversation with him - when he came to the folk club in Crewe, it was Peggy that did all the 'business' - that was in 1975.

Derek

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Brian May
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 04:51 PM

Just to pick up on something mentioned a few times above.

This thread is about 'first-hand anecdotes'. My personal experience of Ewan WAS that he was aloof and distant... that's not an attack on the guy at all - it's simply an observation.

He was already a giant in my folk world but probably saw exactly what I was - a brash kid with an attitude (I'm not a kid anymore but the rest fits).

I don't dislike him, I never did. But my personal one on one observation was just that. He spoke but was laconic and Peggy took over.

I think important enough to clarify.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 11:11 AM

Thanks a million Bryan and Vic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 10:52 AM

Others have made the point that many other geniuses and inspired creative people had/have 'difficult' personalities or personal flaws.

I can't help pointing out that Ewan MacColl is often portrayed as having been difficult and tempremental while his contemporary, Bert Lloyd, is usually portrayed as having been rather saintly and avuncular.

Neverthless, on the occasions when I met Ewan he was always polite and friendly whereas Bert was (quite unjustifiably, in my opinion) rude to me on one occasion and quite aloof and stand-offish on another. I still have a high regard for his work and achievements though.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 10:06 AM

Dick,

I don't know what rank you reached in the army but during my time serving my country I was often addressed by my surname but never by any one that I was over familiar with.

Ex Pte Hoot

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 09:10 AM

Jim Carroll

(not shouting - still haven't learned italics on Mudcat - despite Bryan's advice, if you're in on this).

<i>You do italics like this.</i>

Just keeping an interested watching brief. I never met Ewan MacColl nor heard him perform but I know many who did and they seem to be divided between those who loved him and those who loathed him. He seems to have generated deep loyalty in some while severely getting up the nose of others. Surely any analysis of his influence has to look at all aspects of the man.

I don't fall into either of those camps (perhaps because I'm a musician not a singer). What does concern me is that it seems to be considered fair play by the pro-Ewan lobby to disparage those with whom he fell out in his lifetime, some of whom I do know.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 09:00 AM

Well I've always thought ewan was a brilliant bloke, and you only had to chat to someone like Ian Campbell to gain an idea of the high regard he was held in, by those who knew him well.

I shouldn't worry too much about the negative anecdotes, Jim. His achievements speak for themselves. i can appreciate it might be hurtful - people who barely met him, like myself giving our three pennyworth. But its a bit like having met Elvis - people want to know about the experience. And I suppose some people spice up the stories to give them more impact. ( I mean seriously - a fight between Ewan and Davenport, neither of them looked as though they could make it twice round round the park, without taking a rest.)

I used to do a gig at a pub called The drill Hall Vaults in Salford. I introduced Dirty Old Town - saying it had been written about salford. Several people in the pub were quite surprised to hear that. Further amazement when I said I had met the chap who wrote it.

Thats the nature of fame and recognition - you can't really tell which way the firework will go off. At least Ewan never had one of his songs on a compilation cd called 'Complete Shit of the 80's' - which happened to one of my songs.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 08:32 AM

On the subject of electronic tuners, yes I do use them but not for my concertina, i use them for the guitar, and then i use my ear, Tom Paley Is right they are not entirely accurate, i find them useful to get close, quickly.
please do not adress me as Schweik, it is impertinent and over familiar and possibly rude, if you wish to use an abbreviation please use GSS.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 08:25 AM

The 'what was he like' thing seems to be taking over the original question. Having met people who knew him it seems he was both 'difficult and inspired. Why you you British/English put so much store by whether someone was 'nice' or not. Only the British have this mania for judging my personality over achievement. I'm a huge fan of Brendan behan, who by all accounts was a hopeless drunk, criminal, womaniser etc, yet he's given the reverence in death of a saint. Ewan McColl was surely the greatest Britishy Folk artist ever, and did as much for the British folk movement as any, and more. Had he kissed the right arses and foregone his principles (like Nick Clegg and Co) he'd surely have been knighted. You should be erecting statues and unveiling paintings of him, and bugger his character

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 08:17 AM

Jim Carroll wrote (or should I say wanted to write):-

it does not happen with any other figure on the folk scene

I wonder if this is true, Jim? Since Bob Davenport has been mentioned in this thread, how about all stories that say alternately how volatile, amusing, mercurial, loving, argumentative, interesting, belligerant, fascinating he is? Then there is Alex Campbell, for similar reasons.

On the other hand, why do people not talk about (let's say) Martin Cathy's personality when they talk at length about the doings and scrapes that Dave Swarbrick got himself into (and I would include Swarb as one who circulates such stories)

I believe that what we are talking about here is human nature; people don't talk about the personality of an even, predictable, totally admirable character like Carthy because we feel we always know where we are with people like that. On the other hand we do talk about those whose actions and reactions are a bit more unpredictable and more difficult to fathom because we want to find out a bit more about how they tick.... and I would put both MacColl and Davenport into this latter category.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 08:05 AM

Bob Davenport could be accurately described as the Epitome of Impetuosity.
I think MacColls vocal exercise warm ups and singing exercises could be very useful to a lot of singers. What a pity he never wrote any books on the art of songwriting , has Peggy Seeger?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 07:55 AM

"I really don't understand all this resentment about about curiosity about the man."
Alan; there is no resentment - certainly not from me, about genuine curiosity about the man, he was a fascinating individual.
What I object to is the imbalance and the (often deliberate) inaccuracies and the snide that often accompany, and usually dominate discussion - (take a peep at the Harry Lauder nastiness).
I also become extremely frustrated at the fact that his work and ideas on singing are NEVER discussed. This is the reason why Pat and I embarked on our six month interview with him – to put the record straight and to fill a hugh gap.
When Ben Harker interviewed us for his book (which also has a fair number of inaccuracies BTW) he commented that most of those closely associated with MacColl were very defensive about him. I suppose that's true; MacColl was a human being with human frailties, but we appear to exist in a milieu where people are only interested in his weaknesses and none of his strengths. I suggest you root through the threads on him listed here and point out some which deal with his work and ideas rather than his finger-in-ear image.
Also how come we never discuss the attacks on MacColl – for instance, how many people know about the deliberate attempt to sabotage the Travelling People radio ballad which led to Sheila Stewart being excluded from the programme?
So far this thread has been reasonably positive – let's keep it that way, and let's see how long it takes......!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 07:13 AM

Davenport was not a very good person to interview to get an impartial view of MacColl and his relationship with the Elliots, particularly as he had a track record with Ewan.,and has been noted on more recent occasions misbehaving in an excitable aggressive and eccentric manner.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 05:37 AM

About a year before he died I experienced, what must have been, one of Ewan's last performances at a folk club in North West England. Before the performance started I got into conversation with him. We discussed my adopted city of Manchester and I told him of a book I had been reading about its history - he listened with interest. I was also able to tell him how much I admired his Topic LP, 'The Manchester Angel' and what it meant to me. I asked him if he would sing a particular song from it ('Black Dog and Sheepcrook') and he agreed and sang it as part of his set. This was all very civilised and a treasured memory for me. It's not often that you get to tell a favourite artist what their work means to you and, in this case, particularly poignant because he died so soon after. I usually find that if I meet someone I admire I either can't think of anything to say or I say something embarrassing - thankfully, neither of these things happened on this occasion!

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 05:14 AM

I really don't understand all this resentment about about curiosity about the man.

Of course people are interested. As for it being a long time. Go to Stratford, see how every disputed half fact about Shekespeare is fascinating. That's a long time. Ewan still around and gigging afew years ago. It seems no time at all to me.

People are always interested in artists and their style. Particularly young people - they are looking for a way to comduct themselves and their lives.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 04:34 AM

=my concern is that with Ewan, one seems to cancel out the other, and, as I said, IT DOES NOT HAPPEN WITH ANY OTHER FIGURE ON THE FOLK SCENE==

As I suggested in a post a bit back, Jim, this surely may be seen as a compliment to Ewan, & to the impact he had and to the rare but fascinating contradictions in his so engaging [in both a favourable & a pejorative sense] personality, that so much interest should remain, and should persist so long, in him as an individual as well as as an artist.

Would you not agree? (Just to show that I can do them, so yah-titty-yah-yah and snubs!)

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 04:21 AM

Jim ~ The fisticuffs were scarcely 'youthful'. Ewan was surely in his 40s before he abandoned the theatre in favour of folk ~~ to the expressed contempt, as has been mentioned, of Joan Littlewood; & also, as he mentions in "Journeyman" & I cited in my review, of Hugh MacDiarmid and Louis MacNeice. And Dominic and Hamish were hardly in the first flower of youth either,

Bob Davenport was much younger, mind: certainly one of the finest examples ever of the dangers of over-indulgence in the demon rum. {Drift-alert: One of my fave quotes from Damon Runyon: "Her parents often warn her of the perils of the Demon Rum, and indeed rum is very terrible stuff, except in cocktails"}.

I agree that all that about the Elliotts is most fascinating, enlightening and germane; and would thank Vic sincerely for his having drawn attention to those excellent extracts from what is clearly a most distinguished book, previously unknown to me, by Pete Wood.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 04:08 AM

"Not so: both can quite reasonably co-exist,"
Sorry cross-posted Mike.
Yes, they certainly do, but my concern is that with Ewan, one seems to cancel out the other, and, as I said, IT DOES NOT HAPPEN WITH ANY OTHER FIGURE ON THE FOLK SCENE (not shouting - still haven't learned italics on Mudcat - despite Bryan's advice, if you're in on this).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 04:05 AM

Kevin: in interests of accuracy [someone once wrote on another forum "MtheGM, your pedantry is legendary", which I think she meant as a put-down but I took as a great compliment] ~~ as I was saying, it's "Don't COME the cowboy with me, Sunny Jim".

And how delightful that Ewan should have recognised and appreciated his beloved daughter's somewhat different sort of achievements.

This is not in any way to belittle the fascinating insight of your anecdote. I am reminded of the photograph Ewan [or, perhaps, posthumously, Peggy?] chose to have included in "Journeyman", of Ewan giving Kirsty away at her wedding, clad faultlessly and correctly in morning suit and tall hat! I can imagine he might have jibbed a bit, but submitted to it to please her; tho this is of course mere speculation.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 04:02 AM

Hoot,
Not heard the story of Ewan's fight with Davenport at the Horshoes, but I have a wonderful recording of the one at The John Snow some time in the mid-sixties - I wonder if this is the one the Cap'n is referring to. Perhaps the two are not unrelated.
Ewan and Bert had organised an open forum on the state of the clubs in Britain; Bert, Alex Campbell and Bob Davenport were asked to give short assessments of their experiences and opinions, then the discussion would be thrown open to the floor; MacColl made no statement but was to chair the proceedings.
Bert gave a historical analysis of folksong and the revival, a little scholarly and middle-of-the-road, but that was Bert.
Campbell, a little the worse for wear, opened with how he "loved the auld folk" and complained bitterly about "young singers who hadn't been on the scene five minutes" being booked in preference to him at equal, and even higher fees.
Davenport, it seemed to me, set out to prove that folk song didn't exist and went on at length about how working people's music was art with a small 'a' and not Art with a capital 'A'.
There followed a fairly lively discussion which was interrupted continuously by Davenport cutting across the speakers from the floor, despite Ewan's (fairly restrained, I thought) attempts to shut him up.
Ewan, as chairman, then began to sum up what had been said, constantly and increasingly interrupted by Davenport's attempts to talk him down.
It becomes a little difficult to hear the last five minutes of the proceedings, but at one point Davenport shouted "Jeannie Robertson's a terrible singer", followed by loud protests, sounds of scuffling and furniture being moved! I understand that Ewan and Davenport went for each other - I wasn't there but, as I said, I do have the recording.
I make the point about Davenport in relation to accusations that Ewan was "unapproachable and aloof" - I never found him anything but friendly, helpful and ready to listen, (a little reticent with subjects out of his comfort zone perhaps).
On the other hand I found Davenport, one of Ewan's bitterest critics, ill mannered, aggressive and unhelpful.
Our last encounter with him was at the Musical Traditions club in London about a dozen years ago when we had gone along to hear two Irish women singers. One, an Irish speaker from the Aran Isles, made a point of giving brief translations of her Gaelic songs, during which Davenport, sitting in the row behind us, spoke loudly and pointedly across what she was saying, until it reached the point where Pat turned around and asked him to shut up.
His reply; "I thought we'd left this shite behind us in the sixties; I came here to listen to singing, not talk".
Several people came over and thanked Pat for her intervention, at the end of the evening.
"And Jim: lighten up..."
Sorry Mike - that was me being 'light' I'm afraid. I'm far more interested in why Brian chose not to pass on his song than I was the 4d.
Despite the shit heaped on them, I never saw either Ewan or Peggy refuse to pass on one of their songs.
I was hoping somebody would take up Vic's story of the Elliots; far nearer what Ewan was about than hot-blooded youthful fistcuffs IMO.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 03:57 AM

"Maybe we should concentrate on Grainger's S & M fetish rather than his Lincolnshire collection - what do you think? Jim Carroll "
===
And no doubt to those that way inclined, or even to those just interested overall in Grainger as a personality, this would be a legitimate and reasonable field of interest in considering the man as a whole.

You talk, Jim, as if interest in a distinguished person's overall personality is incompatible with consideration of his/her main contributions and achievements. Not so: both can quite reasonably co-exist, and in many cases even be mutually enlightening, surely?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Kevin Littlewood
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 03:51 AM

With the surname Littlewood, I did get a few odd looks when I first put my name down to sing as Ewan and Peggy's club, but they were very friendly and encouraging; they published one of my early songs 'We're the men making the missiles', in their New City Songster (I lost my only copy, so I can't tell you the date).
Anyway, one night I got there a bit early, and Ewan was sitting at a table on his own in the bar,sorting out his song list. He had his back to me and didn't see me come in; I approached tentatively and I could hear him singing a song under his breath as he wrote down his list. As I got nearer, I realized it was Kirsty MacColl's 'Don't play the cowboy with me Sunny Jim'. He knew the words too! but stopped when he saw me and put on his serious face.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 02:54 AM

The point is, he was an exceptionally interesting personality of many facets, in whom considerable interest remains. There are surely worse legacies?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 01:19 AM

I remember also Dominic taking a punch at Ewan in the bar of the Princess Louise, after Ewan had denounced Dominic upstairs in the first half, having heard he had been insufficiently respectable of 'The Tradition' in another club earlier in the week. I was there! I mentioned this to open my review of Ewan's autobiog 'Journeyman' in The Times; & asked Ben Harker years later why he had not mentioned it in 'Class Act', as internal evidence there showed that he must have read my review; he replied that he had thought he wouldn't do so as he had no independent corroboration, which he would have preferred to have before including such an incident; adding that he had also heard of a bit of a puch-up one night between Ewan & Hamish Henderson.

So the Davenport incident doesn't seem that unusual, & presumably, like the others, would not have led to any permanent hostility.

I go on in my review, which seems a relevant point to make here, that Ewan always reminded me of the lit critic Dr F R Leavis, under whom, in part, I had recently studied at Cambridge: he regarded it as a mission to set everyone right about Eng Lit, which he seemed to regard as his sort of bailiwick; while E MacC appeared to have something of a similar view of Folksong. I have dug out the review from my file: what I wrote was "MacColl was the self-appointed guardian of the folk revival, a responsibility he jealously preserved. He reminded me in many ways of F R Leavis... In each case, along with a single-minded, rather self-righteous devotion to a cultural cause ... went the ability to inspire a new generation with knowledge & principles" [The Times, 16 Mar 1991]: a summary I think I would still stand by.

And Jim: lighten up. There are lots of threads on Ewan's musical abilities and contributions. This one calls, OTOH, for personal anecdotes, which may be hostile or otherwise as we have seen; so there is no point in your constant objections to the resultant content, which is just as much pro as anti, & largely simply straight anecdotage which is neither.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 06:48 PM

As the good soldier mentions a wish to fight with Ewan by Bob Davenport I can add that he was not alone. I am sure that I mentioned this on a previous thread, but one night at the Ballads and Blues Club when it was held at the Horshoes in Tottenham Court Road. Dominic Behan was there. I can't remember if he was a guest that night or whether he had just dropped in as many did in those days. Anyway the subject of Alan Lomax came up and Dominic was of the opinion that when Lomax was collecting in Ireland he would often pay his informants by giving them a bottle of guiness. Ewan took exception to this and the upshot was that Malcolm Nixon had to jump in and keep them apart. All part of the night's entertainment.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 05:55 PM

oh well, its not Pete Wood from Petts Wood then.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Grampus
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 05:52 PM

Sorry original link didn't work
Try this:

Pete Wood Website

G.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 05:51 PM

But with respect to all concerned, It is well known that Bob Davenport, tried to have a fight with Ewan MacColl, in view of that ,Bob Davenport's statement can hardly be called impartial.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Grampus
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 05:49 PM

Pete Wood Website

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,folkiedave
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 05:46 PM

Keeler's Pete Wood.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 05:26 PM

Vic Smith, which Pete Wood is that?
Is that Pete Wood, that used to sing with the Keelers, or a different Pet Wood.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Brian May
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 05:19 PM

"Doubt if he would have cheated you out of 4d though, or asked for it in the first place!!!!!"

Ah well, perhaps if you understood the humour of the song then the humour and fun in the request, Peggy was more than on my wave length.

There was certainly no intention to 'cheat' them. I realised that my friend's dad had written the song, I only wrote the last verse. It wasn't mine to give. Which I realised when my mind had 'cleared'.

So pray tell me how a young teenager sends the price of a stamp back? So, I might as well laugh about it.

And Yes, he was aloof - didn't seem to be a warm character at all, and that with anybody in the hall.

Still, believe what you wish - this thread asked for first-hand anecdotes, this was one whether anyone likes it or not.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Bert Lloyd
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 05:08 PM

I never met him.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 02:57 PM

"I must admit I found him a bit aloof or distant"
Doubt if he would have cheated you out of 4d though, or asked for it in the first place!!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Brian May
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 01:54 PM

I met Peggy Seeger and Ewan at a college gig in Bognor Regis in the late 60's.

I had done a song called 'Talking Bognor Regis Sewage Blues'. Peggy approached me after my spot and asked if she could have the lyrics as they were collecting 'modern' English folk songs.

Being a cheeky sod, I said I'd send the lyrics by post, but surely they didn't expect me to pay for the postage . . .

Bless her, she got her bag out and gave me 4d (4 pence - which was the price of a first class letter in those days - which usually arrived next day too).

I never sent it - I owe Peggy and Ewan 4d. I must admit I found him a bit aloof or distant (seemed to be somewhere else), Peggy was nice though and I liked her brother of course.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 09:34 AM

Thinking about Belle Stewart after what I wrote in the posting above, it made me think of the times in the 1960s and 1970s that I used to organise folk club tours for the Stewarts and a number of other traditional Scots and Irish performers who had found acceptance in the one sort of folk club. I always used to contact the Singers' Club when I was organising these tours and invariably they would either book the people that I suggested or give me a very good reason (already booked etc.) why they would not. As our club met on the night after the Singers Club, it meant that the Stewarts would come to Lewes after staying with Ewan & Peggy in Beckenham. Belle was never neutral about that pair. She would either arrive telling us that they were the most kind loving couple that she had ever met or she was "bliddy glad tae get oot o' that awfa' hoose." though it was usually Peggy rather than the pair of them that raised her ire. Belle was always contrary in her opinion of the folklorists she worked with; Hamish Henderson was alternately a saint or a devil according to Belle.
Writing this has made me remember the extensive coverage that Ewan gets in that marvellous book The Elliotts of Birtley by Pete Wood (Herron Publishing ISBN 978-0954068233). Here are two of the more relevant quotations; once again we get a mixed view of Ewan MacColl:-


When MacColl met the Elliotts, it must have been like all his birthdays coming at once. I think that in Ewan's mind, the working man had been endowed with dignity, fierce pride, great honesty and openness, a keen sense of the unfairness of the capitalist system, and a political drive to replace it with a fair, humane, and sensitive brave new world in which the workers would be at the same level as the bosses. In doing this, it would be the community culture that would make it possible, and songs, particularly those of protest, would put the fairy on the top of this idealised Christmas tree. The Elliotts, although far from typical of their community, had quite simply fulfilled all his dreams.
Accordingly, Ewan, Charles (Parker) and Peggy (Seeger) became the first of several teams to set up their cumbersome recording gear in Brown's Buildings. During the course of a week in March 1961, they recorded their 'actuality', mainly from Jack and Reece Elliott, pitmen all their lives. As we saw earlier, there is wonderful material here about the traditional games the miners played, the terrible conditions, wriggling through a 16-inch seam, the dangers of roof fall and water in the pit, Jack's two accidents, and living conditions at home.
A great deal of this was used unedited in the ensuing radio ballad, The Big Hewer. The programme had as its theme the pit's superman, the one who outshone all his mates, could fill two tubs to the others' one, and hold up the dodgy roof with his back. MacColl had come across this in several of the coalfields, and thought it a myth, a John Henry figure. However, there were real men who were like this, and most pits had one. As with every job, there was always somebody who could do it better or faster than the rest.
Pages 53/54

Some time in the early '60s there was a Club trip to the Singers' Club in London at the request of Ewan and Peggy. A 40-seater coach was duly filled and down they all went. Some have mixed feelings about the trip, saying MacColl was arrogant and didn't let them sing. They had thought they were taking over the Club for the night. In fact, however, it was just the Elliott family that had been asked to go. Imagine the effect of these boisterous Geordies, all het up and raring to go, on the staid Singers' Club audience of that time!
However, as Bob Davenport, the Gateshead singer long exiled in London, comments, Jack was told what to sing at the Singers' Club. It seemed he was there as a performer, obliged to pop up from time to time in order to illustrate a point from MacColl's 'lecture'. He was delighted to find that when invited to sing at the Fox Club in Islington, he could sing anything he liked when he liked! (Different approach, different people, the Folk Revival had it all.)
Jim Bainbridge, long-exiled singer and musician, and member of the legendary Marsden Rattlers of the 60s and 70s, has this to say:
"Tolerant folk clubs taught many of us that, given the opportunity, most singers improve with time and experience, and that this serves the tradition much better than the quality control exercised at Ewan MacColl's Singers Club. MacColl was a wonderful songwriter and promoter of the tradition as he saw it, but as a man of the theatre -with little time for imperfection - his ideas for improving the quality of singing were applied via technical advice and analysis rather than absorption by exposure to the perceived inadequacies of unbelievers. No less a singer than old Jack Elliott of Birtley was once castigated by this crowd - after a return visit to the Singer's Club, disappointment was expressed that his singing hadn't "improved" since his last visit -What a damn cheek!"
There was also apparently a comment by either Ewan or Peggy that Jack "hadn't moved on", implying that they expected him to develop a stage act, much as they had done. It's sad that they didn't see the true value of such a natural singer who had such a wide appeal without artificial devices.
Pages 81/82

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 09:32 AM

Ewan did this with a number of his songs, most of which, not surprisingly, became classics.
The songs from The Travelling People were based on some of the actuality recorded from not just Belle, but other Travellers, Minty Smith and Caroline Hughes for instance.
Similarly, if you listen to the recordings of Sam Larner and Ronnie Balls made for Singing The Fishing you will hear phrases used in Shoals of Herring. Sam said of the song that he felt he'd known it all his life.
Peter Keenan's song (The Fight Game) drew from recordings of a Glaswegian boxer.
Elsewhere the much neglected 'Shellback' was based on field recordings of mariner Ben Bright.
The also neglected 'Tenant Farmer' came from a conversation about an eviction in the Scottish borders.
It is why his songs reflected the subjects they dealt with and were not pastishe copies
His least successful Radio Ballad songs (IMO) were those where he stood remote from the people he was dealing with (Body Blow and On The Edge); the actuality was fine but the songs don't seem to have stood the test of time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 07:56 AM

Vic,

What you are describing is something which poets and songwriters all do to some extent. IE., taking the speech and sayings of people around them and working same into their compositions.

Like Bert, I've always regarded it as one of MacColl's great song writing strengths, and a measure of just how close he could get to the people he wrote about.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 07:30 AM

Not a direct Ewan story, but relevant here I think.....
Very quickly after getting into folk clubs in the early 1960s, I was smitten - still am - by the magnificent singing and repertoire of the various Scots Traveller families. This was before I heard the radio ballad The Travelling People which remains a favourite with all those magnificent songs. Soon after hearing the album, I started to spend summers in Scotland and was in contact with various traveller families, mainly the Stewarts of Blair who were so wonderfully welcoming. I started to find in long conversations with Belle that lots of the phrases and constructions that she used had also been used by Ewan in his compositions for this radio ballad. Somehow, this made me feel uncomfortable.
About this time we booked Bert Lloyd at out folk club and he stayed with us after the club which was the usual pattern. I used to love talking to Bert, who I always regarded as a very wise man. I mentioned the fact that I had found many of Belle's phrases in Ewan's songs and that I felt that this was in some way a form of plagiarism.

Bert listened carefully to what I said and then answered, "Perhaps what you are describing is the great skill of the man."

Hmm... oh yes....hadn't thought of it that way.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Anne Neilson
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 07:17 PM

I first met Ewan and Peggy in the summer of 1962 when they came up to Glasgow to record material for what eventually became the radio ballad "On the Edge". I had just left school and our English teacher Norman Buchan had organised a group of young people to be available for recording. The two females stayed with Peggy at Norman's house -- for the whole day, fuelled with snacks by his wife Janey, who disappeared for the rest of the time -- and the lads went with Norman and Ewan to Matt McGinn's house, where they were left alone with Ewan.

Peggy was a most empathetic interviewer and the other Anne and I relaxed until it seemed as if there was the equivalent of a 'stream of consciousness' release. The two of us came away feeling valued, vindicated and more in touch with our feelings than either of us expected!

It was quite a few years later before I saw them again (in performance at Kilmarnock Folk Club). I was well aware of Ewan's contribution to traditional and political song, and Peggy's background in American tradition -- but I wasn't prepared for her recognising me when I went in a bit early, and quoting me one of the lines from our long-past interview that had made it into the Radio Ballad! They did a great night, as you would expect, but at the end I was in awe of Ewan's skill and depth of knowledge -- and stunned by Peggy's ability to relate on a personal level. (Truthfully, I doubt I could have hacked it at a Critics Group meeting, being too insecure at the time, so Peggy's 'softer' approach was more acceptable to me.)

The last time I saw them both was a performance in the Washington Street Arts Centre in Glasgow, when they must have known that Ewan was dying, and there were rumours about. There were no obvious compromises in their programming (although, with hindsight, Peggy was probably quite protective), and the evening ended with 'The Joy of Living', which was completely unknown to us. I looked along the row and saw Norman Buchan with tears on his cheeks, and he wasn't the only one.

A major figure whose influence has yet to be adequately measured -- but I do wonder how readily I would have recognised his importance without Peggy's 'mediation'? (Have to explain that my main influence as far as traditional music is concerned was the aforementioned Norman Buchan, who set up a Ballads Club at our school Rutherglen Academy in 1957, and who introduced us to singers like Jeannie Robertson. Jimmy MacBeath, Pete Seeger, The Weavers etc.)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 06:59 PM

How about Oscar Wilde Jim?

I think his name has been dragged through the mire somewhat for some reason or another. I don't know much about him but I think he wrote a play or two.

Regarding Ewan and Laban, you could always start a thread on the subject.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Tim Stevens
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 06:18 PM

Back on track slightly, I met Ewan MacColl once back in the early seventies. My father had taken me to a folk club somewhere on the Royal Mile in Edinburgh and had been rather surprised to discover that he'd known Ewan at Bletchley - although he wasn't calling himself Ewan Macoll back then. Indeed, it was my father who'd initially nursed him back to health after he'd had the slight breakdown. That sort of thing wasn't uncommon, apparently, due to the obvious pressue and my father dealt with a number of cases. When we bumped into Ewan outside the club he looked at my father as though he'd seen a ghost, but after the initial shock I remember them shaking hands and having a quiet pint together whilst the band played on. I don't remember ever seeing him again and my father seldom talked of those days until his final few months.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 05:40 PM

well, Jim, if people worried about what others might say, or worried about philistinism or trivialism, then a lot of academic works would get published.
I seem to remember, from reading, that Ewan was ridiculed (by Joan Littlewood for example) for giving up the theatre for folk song. Thank goodness, he took no notice, and carried on!
Derek