Bertsongs? (songs of A. L. 'Bert' Lloyd)

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 05:16 PM

Jeff - my problem with Bert Lloyd's "Skewball" is that until I saw that page I never for a moment thought it was Bert Lloyd's "Skewball". You expect a bit of tidying-up, but not new rhyme words or entire new verses. What I don't know is how up-front Lloyd was about the changes he'd made to it. I guess "Trad. arr." could cover a multitude of sins.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: JeffB
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 12:26 PM

Sorry Phil, I don't quite follow you. You seem think it's a better song than the broadsides which inspired it. What more need you think?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 12:19 PM

I know what you mean Phil.

I guess it would make more sense for somebody to write a more academic article trying to draw together a conclusion on the hypothesis that Bert was trying to build.

Whilst I think this thread has shown what that was, it would help to separate the songs that have been simply drawn from a range of known sources to those that were altered to make them fit the hypothesis.

Who's up for the challenge then?

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 12:11 PM

Looking for something else, I happened on this page, which juxtaposes Bert Lloyd's "Skewball" with a couple of the broadside versions it derived from. The differences are fairly large - it'd almost be quicker to list the similarities.

I honestly don't know what to think about this. Bert Lloyd's version (as sung later by Steeleye Span and Martin Carthy) is much more the finished article than the broadsides, and almost certainly sings a lot better - but I can't help feeling it's a different song.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 11:41 AM

Thanks Greg, a brilliant summing up.

I guess we will celebrate his work without much of a quibble but in the longer term it would be much better if we could sort out what is Bert and what is real?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:30 AM

Pete Standing says:

"If Bert did adapt rural songs to make them industrial, I for one think that was a valid thing to do, however, if it was at the expense of the original song being lost, then that is lamentable".

Pete, I think you are missing some of the point a bit.Bert (or anyone else) can adapt songs from rural to industrial, terrestrial to Venusian, what does it matter? We all have total artistic freedom. His changes may make original songs get lost: well, fine, the world would get clogged up with songs otherwise. These are not problems. What people are objecting to is that Bert appears to have faked historical evidence. And because he was so good at it, it's very difficult to spot.
Most people are incapable of writing an old song that is convincing: Bert was the only bloke who could do it consistently. And faking historical evidence is a sin, becaue it can lead people to base their lives and philosophies on a total lie. He really should not have done it, it was a disgrace. Rewrite a song fine. Rewrite a song, and claim it was collected in 1936, or it was discovered in an old manuscript, and you've stepped over the line.
   The big question is, did Bert do this? And if so, how often? And when, exactly? That is what people are trying to find out. My impression is that he did deliberately fake from time to time.And when he wasn't deliberately concealing, he sometimes ommitted to explain what he was up to, even though he knew people were being deceived.
    I have a huge admiration for the man. But he was seduced into conning people because he wanted so hard that people should believe that the proletariat had always shared his particular political opnions. So if the proletariiat had ommitted to leave evidence to this effect, Bert was prepared to fill the gap. You can understand his motivation, on the scale of sins it's not very deadly, but it was a bad thing to do.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 10:29 AM

I for one think that was a valid thing to do, however, if it was at the expense of the original song being lost, then that is lamentable.
agreed,
but didnt some of the early song collectors do this,was it Baring Gould or Sharp.I believe Sharp kept the originals.please correct me if I am wrong
however they both had agendas,they didnt collect everything that was sung to them,and both seemed to concentrate on rural rather than urban songs.
the bowdlerisataion of songs,to make them acceptable to schools,has to be seen in relation to the prevailing attitude of the time.
perhaps LLoyd should be seen in this context.
I am sure LLoyd would act differentlyif he were active today .today.DickMiles

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: John Routledge
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:27 AM

A great thread indeed

It is becoming an appropriate contemporary memorial for Bert's Centenary.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 04:54 AM

If we were to present a scholarly introduction to every song sung, or tune played, in a session or club, there wouldn't be much music played.

I'm grateful to the many thoughtful contributions to this thread, it has been one of the best I've seen on many forums in a long time. One can only at best make educated guesses as to Bert's motives. No doubt we are all glad for the great contribution he made and I have no argument with his re-arranging, we all do that, but I would have preferred it if he had been open about what he had done.

I've just acquired a copy of "The Imagined Village" on which there is a version, by Billy Bragg, of "Hard Times of England". It has been very much brought up to date with mentions of the Countryside Alliance and people buying second (holiday) homes and closures of post offices etc. All very relevant to today's listener. However, we still have an original. If Bert did adapt rural songs to make them industrial, I for one think that was a valid thing to do, however, if it was at the expense of the original song being lost, then that is lamentable.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: BB
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 12:35 PM

Richard, Topic's Voice of the People series (twenty of them!) are probably the best, having a terrific variety of songs, styles, etc. of traditional (i.e. 'source') performers, with information galore, and helpfully, the words of the songs as well, so you don't have to 'translate' from the recordings, just get the tunes in your head. You can find them on the Topic website here , then go to the 'Voice of the People' page. One or two of them are just music I think, but you can trawl through and decide which ones are most suitable for you.

And I think that perhaps that folk clubs, singaround and sessions are not the places to demonstrate this sort of knowledge and scholarship - that doesn't necessarily mean that none of the people concerned have it. The Folk Music Journal, and to a lesser extent English Dance and Song, both received automatically by EFDSS members, as well as such places as the Musical Traditions website mentioned above, will give you plenty of reading, and may also lead you to other publications that are available. If you see earlier books that you think might be interesting, they can often be found through sites like this
, which we've used so many times to find out of print tomes.

One other place to discover expert knowledge would be workshops, at festivals, or some clubs run them. Near you, Lewes would probably be the nearest, or Cecil Sharp House if you're prepared to brave the Great Wen.

See you at Broadstairs, I hope.

Barbara

Good luck on your voyage of discovery.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: meself
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 11:04 AM

Richard: If you haven't already, I would go to the aforementioned Musical Traditions site http://www.mustrad.org.uk/ and take a look through the reviews. There is much coverage of traditional English singers and songs; often sound clips are included. Lots of interesting reading there, as well.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Dave Hunt
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:51 AM

As someone who is a late entrant to this discussion there is an interesting parallel with the idea that we all alter/adapt songs for our own use - adding/subtracting a little or changing words here or there . On the Musical Traditions website Rod Stradling has started putting togethere a record of how people have changed songs, and why. Makes interesting reading

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/songbook/s_index.htm

DAVE

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 03:22 AM

It is so nice to see the knowledge and scholarship demonstrated in this thread.

Why do we see so little of it demonstrated at folk clubs and singarounds and song sessions, at least as far as I see in Kent?

And since my reading of dots is so poor, if I were to start adding to the repertoire of old songs that I can do, with which recordings available from where should I start?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 11:43 AM

I use to see Paul Graney on a regular basis around the clubs in Manchester and I always wondered what his collection consisted of.
The nearest I ever got to finding out was through a friend, the late Terry Whelan, who had been promised some recordings by Paul.
This was in the days when new songs where not that easy to come by (outside London), so Terry looked forward to receiving them with some anticipation.
One night Paul turned up at The Pack Horse with a tape for Terry, and when we all got back to his home, the tape recorder was dragged out, the tape put on, and we all say in great expectation.
Paul's voice came over the speaker, "Hello Terry, I know you're an animal lover, so I thought you might be interested in this".
There followed a magnificent, 20 minute recording of - Siberian timber wolves.
Any disappointment we felt was more than made up for by the expression on Terry's face.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Martin Graebe
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 04:09 AM

Jim

Paul Graney's recordings are in very safe hands. Johnny Adams and team have big plans for them, that he talked about at the last Traditional Song Forum meeting (see notes here - and apologies for the mis-spelling. Note taking is another oral process).

Back to the thread (OK - I'm a late-comer, as usual). I only once saw Bert perform live (at the Jolly Porter in Exeter) and it was a wonderful experience. Throughout the 70s he was a source of inspiration and object of admiration. Without his example I suspect that I would never have developed that interest in 'where songs come from'. In time I came to realise that many of my favourite songs, from many of my favourite singers had his fingerprints on them. Later still I found the 'dodgy' aspects of his scholarship and, yes, I have to admit was a bit disappointed and, to a degree, disillusioned. But his contribution was, as has been said on this and the other threads, outstanding and permanent. Thanks, Bert.

Martin Graebe

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 03:06 AM

Hi Bryn
Whatever happened to Paul Graney's collection of recordings?
Was checking the map last night; Royton and Shaw are adjecent and Duckinfield (or Dukinfield) is not too far away - wonder if Harry was right?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:27 AM

I remember well (one night at the Waggon & Horses, Bridge Street) Harry commenting that someone [he mentioned the name, but as a contemporary of Jim C and FolkieDave, the memory ain't what it

was :-)- might have been Paul Graney] said that there was a variant -

Aw've been blint at Dukinfield
An' Aw've been deaf at Shay [sic - dialect pron 'Shaw']
An mony's the reet an' willin' lass
Aw've bedded in the hay.'

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:09 AM

who wrote the OilyRigs,BobRoberts?,he never claimed authorship.
maybe this passing off into the tradition,of modern pieces was more common in the fifties and sixties.
Dominic Behan has been criticised for passing off traditional material as his own compositions.
now Bert is being criticised,for doing the opposite.
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 07:48 AM

That's a VERY good idea Barbara - and one I wish I'd thought of 6 years ago. From now on, for me, it shall be thus!

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:39 AM

I seem to remember a "Come all ye", made up by Stan Kelly, from all those floating verses from other songs, does this ring a bell?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: BB
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 04:50 AM

Artful Codger said, some way back, "How about telling us what "arranged by" really means?"

I would suggest that "adapted by" would be a more truthful description, and one which we use when we do such a thing. "Arranged by" should apply, surely, to the musical arrangement.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 04:05 AM

Never known about this one - that's what the man said.
Duckinfield - Shawe - Royton makes perfect sense to me
Ah well - I don't suppose we'll ever know.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:52 PM

Jim,
Looks like a perfect example of a Mondegreen.
Steve

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:46 PM

I have just listened to Harry singing on a record to the original tune but needless to say I cannot tell "Royton willin" from "Reet and willin" the latter being from Mike Harding's book Folk Songs of Lancashire.

I guess the second more in tune with the dialect but I bet Harry sang both.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:33 PM

A slight aside; when Harry Boardman sang 'To The Begging' he often claimed that the Blind-deaf verse was not, as I believed at the time,
"and many the right and willing lass.....", but
"I've been deaf in Duckinfield,
I've been blind at Shawe
And many the Royton (one of the mill towns) willing lass
I've bedded in the straw.

Does anybody know f this is accurate?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:15 PM

contemporary was meant in the sense,friend or well acquainted with,
I get the impression Jim was well acquainted with Maccoll and Lloyd.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:43 PM

So far I have seen no mention 9although I may have missed it!) of one of Bert's finest achievemnts, his editorship, with Ralph Vaughan Williams, of the 'Penguin Book of English Folk Songs' (1959).

This, of course, has recently been revised by Malcolm Douglas and re-issued as 'Classic English Folk Songs' (efdss, 2003).

In his introduction to the new edition, Mr Douglas tells us that, "The [original] editors made it perfectly clear that they had collated, and amended, song texts where they felt that this was desirable ...". He then goes on to discuss these interventions, and Lloyd's "creativity" in general, in much more detail, and rather than me trying to precis him, I would recommend that you read for yourself what he has to say.

Finally, may I remind you that we also have available a CD: 'England & Her Traditional Songs: A selection from the Penguin Book of English Folk Songs' (Fellside, FECD173). In my opinion these recordings represent Bert at the top of his form as a singer.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:35 PM

"It is well within British social habits for neither to have had a higher status, but both to be looked down on by the other."

Good point, Santa (in fact the verses posted by Malcolm suggest exactly that). Reminded me of Harry Boardman singing 'I'll have a Collier': 'Collier lads get gowd and silver, Ferranti's lads get nowt but brass'. What did the Ferranti's lads say to that?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:11 PM

About 18 months ago, I was enjoying a drink with Martin Carthy in the Railway Inn at Greenfield. We thought we'd have a bash at singing Jone O' Grinfilt in its place of birth. Musically, I have to confess it was a disaster, but an abiding memory none-the-less.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 11:35 AM

If Jim was a contemporary of Ewan's he'd be 93!

Phil (contemporary of Kirsty)

And if he was a contemporary of Bert he would be 100 - the clue is in the centenary celebrations at C# House later this year. The exact date is February 29th so I suppose there could be a case for pedantry on the number of years!!

Dave
(contemporary of Jim I guess)

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Santa
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 11:30 AM

This fascinating thread is moving so quickly this comment may be too late, but I think perhaps too much has been made of the factory/weaver status differences in different versions. It is well within British social habits for neither to have had a higher status, but both to be looked down on by the other. A weaver's parents may well look down on a mere factory maid: the evidence that she dresses like a queen shows only the higher pay available in the factories, but her contemporaries probably did think themselves better than the old-fashioned weavers.

I'm sure you can think of modern equivalents.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 11:26 AM

Yes, Sid is definitely the man to speak to about Jone O' Grinfilt ballads.

"Grinfilt", by the way, is the local pronunciation of "Greenfield", a village (now somewhat commuter-colonised) about three miles from Delph.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 11:15 AM

"Beckett, far from being the unlettered weaver of common portrayal, was a highly self-educated man, expert and enthusiastic about local dialect, history and geology ..."

I suspect that that description would fit a lot of traditional singers. I believe that Henry Burstow of Sussex was a similar self-educated polymath.

Also Sid Calderbank (of Chorley - possibly?) sings a version of the 'Four Loom Weaver' which is much closer to the version posted above by Brian Peters. Sid sings it in dialect and the first time I heard him all the hairs stood up on the back of my neck! I swear I was, for a few moments, transported back to Georgian Lancashire. If you ever meet Sid beg him (nicely, of course) to sing it for you!

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 11:02 AM

Brian's ref. to "Lucy Wan" sent me to Ken Goldstein's notes to the influential "English and Scottish Popular Ballads" recordings for Riverside. Lloyd sang only two for which he did not offer a traceable source:

"Lord Bateman" (53): "[M]ainly from his own family tradition. He writes, however, that 'over the yers I have acquired so many bits from other singers' versions that I woulod be hard put nowto sort out which was which.'"

"The Cherry Tree" (54): No source given.

On the accompanying "Great British Ballads Not in the Child Collection" are

"The Bitter Withy": "Primarily a family version 'which has been amplified by printed versions over the years.'"

"The Bramble Briar": "The version sung by Lloyd, part of his family tradition, appears to be one of the finest versions yet reported."

"The Shooting of His Dear" [i.e., "Molly Ban /Polly Vaughn"]:
"[L]argely from his own family tradition,...expanded from various printed sources."

The remaining 32 songs performed by Lloyd are attributed to identified sources. Most are acknowledged collations of more than one source.

The attribution of four songs in outstanding versions to "family tradition" is fascinating. Did Lloyd ever write much about this tradition?

No version of "Lucy Wan" is included in the Riverside series.

I'll start a similar thread about MacColl's contributions when I get a chance.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:21 AM

If Jim was a contemporary of Ewan's he'd be 93!

Phil (contemporary of Kirsty)

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:58 AM

Cap'n
Contemporary my arse - both Ewan and Bert could comfortably give me 25 years plus!
Ewan's main purpose was to encourage singing - traditional songs and new songs created using traditional models. Unlike Bert, he made no claim to being an academic in the field of folk song, though he did possess a great knowledge of the subject.
Bert on the other had, was somewhat schizophrenic, wavering between being a singer and an academic.
I didn't know Bert as well as I knew Ewan, so I can only go on passing impressions.
A friend of mine is working on an interview he did with Bert for a magazine he and I were intending to publish, but which never got off the ground. Haven't had time to dig it out and listen, but I seem to remember there's some interesting stuff on it.
Brian,
I too would have loved to hear 'Collector' and 'Landscape with Chimneys, 'Scouser', 'Pit stop, 'St Cecilia and the Shovel' and all the other programmes that were lost to us.
I think Ewan and Joan were sent off with an open brief and the programme was designated 'Teesdale' when what they collected was assessed.
By the way, I apologise for my date discrepency - I always thought 'collector was made much earlier than 1948.
Don't know if this is any interest to anybody - it is from Prospero and Ariel - a critique of the BBC by one of its great feature producers.

PROSPERO AND ARIEL. (The Rise And Fall Of Radio).
D.G.Bridson.
Victor Gollancz Ltd.1971.
The voice was a new one on the air, the voice of Ewan MacColl, but there was no mistaking the message of the tramping feet behind it.
Ewan MacColl was himself a victim of the Depression. The son of an unemployed Glasgow steelworker, who had moved to Salford in search of work during the twenties, he had suffered every privation and humiliation that poverty could contrive for him from the age of ten. His memories of his early years are still bitter-like his recollection of how to kill aimless time in a world where there was nothing else to do: "You go in the Public Library. And the old men are there standing against the pipes to get warm, all the newspaper parts are occupied, and you pick a book up. I can remember then that you got the smell of the unemployed, a kind of sour or bitter-sweet smell, mixed in with the smell of old books, dust, leather and the rest of it. So now if I pick up, say, a Dostoievsky-immediately with the first page, there's that smell of poverty in 1931. MacColl had been out busking for pennies by the Manchester theatres and cinemas. The songs he sang were unusual, Scots songs, Gaelic songs he had learnt from his mother, border ballads and folk-songs. One night while queueing up for the three-and¬sixpennies, Kenneth Adam had heard him singing outside the Manchester Paramount. He was suitably impressed. Not only did he give MacColl a handout; he also advised him to go and audition for Archie Harding at the BBC studios in Manchester's Piccadilly. This MacColl duly did. May Day in England was being cast at the time, and though it had no part for a singer, it certainly had for a good, tough, angry Voice of the People. Ewan MacColl became the Voice, a role which he has continued to fill on stage, on the air, and on a couple of hundred L.P. discs ever since.
Shortly after May Day in England went out, a letter appeared in the correspondence column of the Radio Times over the signature of one George Potter. It gave high praise to the programme and ended: "Broadcasting produces, or displays, a creative writer of real force, and the critics continue to retail nothing but the latest band-room and bar-room gossip. It is high time this particular temple is cleansed." I was surprised, when I met him a year later, to find that 'George Potter' had been a discreet pseudonym for Laurence Gilliam, who had just moved over from the Radio Times to become a London feature producer himself We were to see a great deal more of each other.
Perhaps it was no coincidence that a vital new theatre movement was born in Manchester at the time when Cotton People and Coal were giving new vitality to radio. For it was there that Joan Littlewood first gathered together the group that was later to form the nucleus of Theatre Workshop. Known at the time as Theatre Union, that body of young enthusiasts had something they wanted to express in movement no less than in voice. Ewan MacColl was one of them, for in those days Joan and he were married: they had first met up in my broadcast Tunnel. Others were recruited by Joan from among the hundreds we got to know in all parts of the North.
I asked her in a broadcast recently what the North had meant to the movement she had founded there in pre-war days. She admitted it had meant everything; that what she had been able to start in Manchester could not have been started then in London. As the seed was later to bear such splendid fruit, I like to remember where the seed was first nurtured. So does Joan Littlewood.
Jim Carroll
PS Thanks - Brian parcel arrived today

Subject: Lyr Add: THE WEAVER AND HIS SWEETHEART
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:26 AM

The Bodleian collection lists umpteen JO'G variants (though knowing which search-words to use takes some imagination) -
here's one.

Plus there's one in the Axon Collection.


RE: Weavers and Factory Maids

THE WEAVER AND HIS SWEETHEART

I am a weaver by my trade,
I fell in love with a servant maid,
If I her favour could but win,
Then I shall weave and she shall spin.

Her father to him scornfully said,
How can you fancy a servant-maid,
When you may have ladies fine and gay,
Drest like unto the Queen of May.

As for your ladies I don't care,
Could I but enjoy my only dear,
It makes me mourn when I thought to smile,
And I will wander the woods so wild.

I went unto my love's chamber-door,
Where oftimes I had been before;
But I could not speak nor yet go in,
To the pleasant bed my love lay in.

How can you tell what a pleasant bed,
Where nothing lies but a servant-maid?
A servant-maid altho' she be,
Blest is the man that enjoyeth she.

A pleasant thought came into my mind,
I turned down the sheets so fine,
There I saw two white breasts hand so low
Much like two white hills covered with snow.

My love she lives in the country of North,
And I myself live a great way off;
And when I weave for the county of Down,
Then I will weave her a holland Gown.

My love is sick and like to die,
A most unhappy young man am I;
But at length the Weaver's joy was blest
And he got the servant Maid at last.


Published: LATER ENGLISH BROADSIDE BALLADS - Holloway/Black
Source: Madden Collection, v6, slip sheet 1909

Subject: Lyr Add: POOR COTTON WEAVER
From: Brian Peters
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:49 AM

Yes, Dave, 'Poor Cotton Weaver' is one of the Jone O' Grinfilt ballads, sometimes known as 'Jone O' Grinfilt Junior' (Harland & Wilkinson 1875). I think it's mentioned somehwere in Mrs. Gaskell as well. All of the 'Jone' broadsides were, to my understanding, intended to be sung to the same tune that you mention.

I've pasted a copy of the words below. You can find pretty much all of 'Four Loom Weaver' in there, although Bill O' Bent's role in the proceedings is a bit different. It doesn't take a great leap of the imagination to believe that 'Four Loom Weaver' is a well-executed rewrite of the dialect poem, set to a particularly good tune. Did Beckett Whitehead or one of his antecedents construct this (he was a dialect expert and would surely have known about the poem), or did MacColl?

Either way, you can't accuse the rewriter of making up bogus words for the sake of agit-prop - all the pain and anger are right there in the old version. The big tune adds a lot to the impact, of course.

I'm a poor cotton weaver as many one knows
I've nowt to eat i' th' house an' I've wore out my cloas
You'd hardly give sixpence for all I have on.
My clugs they are brossen an' stockins I've none.
      You'd think it wur hard to be sent into th'world
      To clem an' do th'best ot you con.

Our church parson kept tellin' us long,
We should have better times if we'd but hold our tongues.
I've houden my tongue till I can hardly draw breath.
I think i' my heart he means to clem me to death.
      I know he lives weel by backbitin' the de'il,
      But he never picked o'er in his life.

We tarried six week an' thought every day were t'last.
We tarried an' shifted till now we're quite fast.
We lived on nettles while nettles were good,
An' Waterloo porridge were best of us food.
      I'm tellin' you true, I can find folks enew
      That er livin' no better than me.

Old Bill o' Dan's sent bailiffs one day,
For a shop score I owed him that I couldn't pay,
But he wur too late, for old Bill o' Bent
Had sent tit an' cart and taen goods for rent.
      We had nowt bur a stoo', that wur a seat for two;
      An' on it cowered Margit an' me.

The bailiffs looked round as sly as a mouse,
When they saw aw things wur taen out o' t'house.
Says one to the other: All's gone, thou may see.
Aw sed: Lads, never fret, you're welcome to me.
      They made no more ado, but nipped up t'owd stoo',
      An' we both went wack upo' t'flags.

I geet howd o' Margit, for hoo're stricken sick.
Hoo sed hoo ne'er had such a bang sin hoo wur wick.
The bailiffs scoured off wi' owd stoo' on their backs.
They would not have cared had they brokken our necks.
      They're mad at owd Bent cos he's taen goods for rent,
      An wur ready to flay us alive.

I sed to our Margit as we lay upo' t'floor:
We shall never be lower in this world, I am sure.
But if we alter, I'm sure we mun mend,
For I think i' my heart we are both at far end,
      For meat we have none, nor looms to weave on,
      Egad, they're as weel lost as found.

Then I geet up my piece, an' I took it 'em back.
I scarcely dare speak, mester lookit so black.
He said: You wur o'erpaid last time you coom.
I said: If I wur, 'twas for weavin' bout loom.
      In the mind as I'm in, I'll ne'er pick o'er again,
      For I've woven mysel to th'fur end.

Then aw coom out o' t'warehouse, an' left him to chew that.
When aw thought again, aw wur vext till aw sweat.
To think we mun work to keep him an' aw th'set,
All the days o' my life, an' then die in their debt!
      But I'll give o'er this trade, an' work with a spade,
      Or go an' break stones upo' th'road.

Our Margit declares if hoo'd cloas to put on,
Hoo d go up to Lundun an' see the young Queen,
An if things didn't alter when hoo had been,
Hoo swears hoo would fight, blood up to th'een.
      Hoo's nought agen t'queen, but hoo likes a fair thing,
      An' hoo says hoo can tell when hoo's hurt.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:20 AM

Brian, Is there some confusion here between the version of "Four Loom Weaver" which MacColl has recorded on various albums, published in Singing Islands (I think)and is sung quite widely in the folk clubs and "Poor Cotton Weaver" as recorded by Bert on "The Iron Muse" and a longer set of words published in "Folksong in England". Certainly the latter is set to the same tune of "Jone o'Grinfilt" and the ensuing songs of that family. I have never heard that particular variant sung in a folk club except from a chap to whom I passed the words onto.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:02 AM

Whoops, I'd already said half of that in an earlier post. The back pain is rotting my brain.....

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 05:55 AM

"1948 - The Song Collector. The record of a folk song-collecting trip in Teesdale, Yorkshire. Produced by Olive Shapley"

How I would love to hear that programme! Although since Delph (home of Beckett Whitehead) is a long way from Teesdale I'm a bit puzzled by the title.

I've always wondered whether Mr. Whitehead actually sang 'Four Loom Weaver' at all, or perhaps showed MacColl a copy of the old 'Jone O' Grinfilt' broadside in a book (Beckett, far from being the unlettered weaver of common portrayal, was a highly self-educated man, expert and enthusiastic about local dialect, history and geology). At any rate the tune to which the J. O' G. broadsides were traditionally sung bears no resemblance to the superbly dramatic beast that we now associate with 'Four Loom Weaver'. But it seems that this programme did indeed include footage of B. W. singing it....

It's also worth mentioning for those not in the know that Mr. Whitehead's 'A-Beggin' I Will Go' goes to that jaunty tune you can find here in the DT (and in the Folksongs of Britain and Ireland book) rather than the moody modal tune that most people now would recognize. It doesn't contain any reference to being 'blind at Dukinfield' either.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 05:36 AM

He re-wrote songs - so?
He created songs and tunes from various sources - so?
He wasn't entirely up front about what he did - that is what, from an academic perspective, dis-credits all the rest of what he did - so?

So he lied. So he 'collected' material that he'd written himself, and lied about how he'd collected it and who he'd collected it from. Collecting is partly about getting songs down and putting them back into circulation, and partly about tracing songs back to their roots (or a little closer to their roots). Bert Lloyd did the first part extraordinarily well, but his contribution to the second part seems to be, well, a bit mixed.

If anything, he made it harder to document songs like Reynardine, The Recruited Collier and the Blackleg Miner: was there a pre-1808 version of TRC? was there a J.T. Huxtable who was singing it in Workington? was there a Tom Cook who was singing Reynardine? The answer seems very likely to be no in all three cases, but at this distance we can never be sure. (And was there a W. Sampey of Bishop Auckland who was singing the Blackleg Miner in 1949? I'm starting to wonder.)

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 05:27 AM

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards - PM
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 01:18 PM

Most people who are driven by a desire to change the world,be they Muslim fundamentalists ,Fascists,communists, socialists,are prepared to try and camouflage scholarship,to further their own beliefs.

I don't think that will work. Les, Ruth and I are (by our own admission) pinkoes of the deepest dye, who might be supposed to sympathise with the kind of line Lloyd was trying to get across. But we've all expressed concern about scholarship being 'camouflaged' (or rather distorted).

this very day Muslims have managed to get the holocaust removed from the english school curriculum[so I have been informed by email].

I think your source is probably mistaken - more on this well-circulated story here. (But let's minimise follow-ups on this non-musical but highly contentious topic.)
FOLKIE DAVE,the link is in this post,further up the thread .

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 05:18 AM

Folkie Dave,it has been corrected earlier,and I apologise for printing something that came from a fellow mudcatter[I wont print their name] in an email.,and that turns out to be incorrect.
Jim,as a contemporary of Ewan and Berts,did Bert ever discuss with you,or give you any idea why he altered songs,and passed off his own songs as traditional?

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:55 AM

Oops - sorry. Add Bonny Black Hare
Tom

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:54 AM

Brian Peters "some of 'Industrial Folksongs' cited by Lloyd and others may not have been sung as widely as the rural folksongs that turned up all over the place."

Considering the context of the thread - this isn't really drift!

A lot of 'rural' stuff is 'one-off': to some people that means it's 'rare': to another it means that only one silly bugger throught it was worth remembering long enough to be collected (e.g Who Owns The Game?). Many songs in the revival over the last 40 years may well have enjoyed a far greater currenct than they did when first created - the same is true of morris, and urguably many 'traditional' dances.

Bert was one of the primary creators of the folk revival - sorry, that should be the mid-to-late-twentieth-century-folk-song-revival (see Harker - but carefully - for some others).
He had political motives - so?
He re-wrote songs - so?
He created songs and tunes from various sources - so?
He wasn't entirely up front about what he did - that is what, from an academic perspective, dis-credits all the rest of what he did - so?

Tom

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:53 AM

Dave - already done. Here's the link again: no, they haven't.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:47 AM

Les,
I assume that you are asking about the collecting done by MacColl and Littlewood - I'll go and get me book....... (exits left).
Here we go...
"1948 - The Song Collector. The record of a folk song-collecting trip in Teesdale, Yorkshire. Produced by Olive Shapley"
I have no idea what the programme included and how faithful Ewan's later renderings of the songs collected were (nor did Harry - he told me he'd never heard the programme, which was presumably junked by the Beeb).
When I asked him about the trip he said they'd recorded Four Loom Weaver, To The Begging, Drinking, Fourpence a Day, Scarborough Fair and an obscene version of Seven Nights Drunk (T'Ould Chap Cam' O'er The Bank), all of which MacColl sang himself at one time or another. Apart from Beckett Whitehead, he mentioned as an informant, retired lead miner Mark Anderson, from whom they'd got 'Fair' and 'Fourpence'.
As I say, I have no idea to what extent he re-worked the songs; but knowing his general approach to his traditional material, possibly quite extensively.
Unlike Bert, I never heard Ewan make claims of 'authenticity' for his own sung versions, though he quite often couldn't remember what he'd done to them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 08:07 PM

From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 01:08 PM

this very day Muslims have managed to get the holocaust removed from the english school curriculum[so I have been informed by email].

I'd hate this to go unremarked.

It is nonsense and the history of it can be found on the internet.

It's late now and I don't have time to post a link.

Subject: RE: Bertsongs?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:57 PM

If you perform or (particularly) record a "traditional" song obtained from a Bertsource, how do you properly attribute it? What about copyright and royalty issues? What about the impact to your own credibility when others find that you've passed on spurious facts? How many of us have the wherewithal or time to research each and every song personally, double-checking every source (especially when only one is known)?

The sort of "evolution" performed by revivalists is radically different from what would occur naturally in informal transmission. Usually, they're well aware of all significant changes. So why don't people just detail changes they've made to traditional songs, particularly when they record them? How about telling us what "arranged by" really means? How about posting source materials on your web site, for comparison? Modern technology makes this so easy.