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Folklore: Define English Trad Music

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GUEST,OP 16 Nov 11 - 09:40 AM
Sailor Ron 16 Nov 11 - 06:33 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 15 Nov 11 - 12:47 PM
Paul Davenport 15 Nov 11 - 12:19 PM
Paul Davenport 15 Nov 11 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 15 Nov 11 - 08:17 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Nov 11 - 07:02 AM
Paul Davenport 15 Nov 11 - 05:18 AM
GUEST 14 Nov 11 - 01:44 PM
greg stephens 09 Jul 08 - 12:46 PM
greg stephens 09 Jul 08 - 12:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Jul 08 - 12:37 PM
TheSnail 09 Jul 08 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,ALex Fiddle 08 Jul 08 - 03:17 PM
greg stephens 08 Jul 08 - 08:19 AM
greg stephens 08 Jul 08 - 08:10 AM
GUEST,eliza c 08 Jul 08 - 07:33 AM
GUEST,Swarbrules 08 Jul 08 - 05:08 AM
GUEST,Joe 08 Jul 08 - 03:52 AM
GUEST,Swarbrules 08 Jul 08 - 03:01 AM
The Sandman 29 Jun 08 - 03:20 PM
Valmai Goodyear 29 Jun 08 - 06:24 AM
Lynn W 28 Jun 08 - 05:18 PM
The Sandman 27 Jun 08 - 07:14 PM
GUEST,martin ellison 27 Jun 08 - 07:02 PM
The Sandman 27 Jun 08 - 06:22 PM
Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) 27 Jun 08 - 02:06 PM
irishenglish 27 Jun 08 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,eliza c 27 Jun 08 - 01:40 PM
The Sandman 27 Jun 08 - 01:38 PM
The Sandman 27 Jun 08 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,eliza c 27 Jun 08 - 12:55 PM
TheSnail 26 Jun 08 - 12:56 PM
Stu 26 Jun 08 - 05:05 AM
GUEST,Fiddle PLayer 26 Jun 08 - 04:17 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 26 Jun 08 - 04:15 AM
TheSnail 25 Jun 08 - 10:41 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 08 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,Jon 25 Jun 08 - 08:39 AM
Stu 25 Jun 08 - 08:17 AM
greg stephens 25 Jun 08 - 06:45 AM
GUEST,Joe 25 Jun 08 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 25 Jun 08 - 04:56 AM
GUEST,Alex Fiddle 24 Jun 08 - 07:51 PM
GUEST,Jon 24 Jun 08 - 05:31 PM
TheSnail 24 Jun 08 - 05:13 PM
TheSnail 24 Jun 08 - 03:28 PM
GUEST,Valmai Goodyear 24 Jun 08 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,Alex Fiddle 24 Jun 08 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Alex Fiddle 24 Jun 08 - 01:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,OP
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 09:40 AM

This old chestnut again.

Wonderful photos of the Minster Suibhne! And they got to keep their bagpipes! In [I think] Sherborne Abbey, round my way, someone removed the bagpipes as they were the devil's instrument (quite possibly due to those devilishly good Scottish pipers, but that is conjecture)

'disregard for tonality'

Certainly this seems apparent from recordings.

However (all just my opinion) it doesn't seem to fit with the village band model where fiddlers would also be playing in the church. (i'm thinking Hardy in particular) 2 out of tune fiddles and a (presumably equally off-key) cello would sound just awful when accompanying comparatively tuneful voices.

There is the argument that without the frame of reference for the twelve-tone equal temperament music that we are all bombarded with today, that they wouldn't judge all other music on this scale. Hmmm.

They certainly were not just slumming it, they played all the time and took great pride in it and played in all manners of keys. There are loads of tunes in Winters MS (Somerset same period as the older Hardy MS)in Bb, F, Gmin.

The tunes in these keys actually are great on the fiddle, but they're not an easy option, if you have poor intonation due to skill-level, you would naturally stick to G, D, A major (& relative minors) as your open strings keep you rooted better (and there are plenty of tunes in these keys too), to venture off into F, would sound worse to the player if they lacked this skill.

The fact that they did, i think, suggests their intonation was exactly what they wished it to be (or at least the same as nowadays , where we all strive for that little extra)

On the wider issue. Over the last 3 years I have enjoyed playing with lots of great players from all over England. I have my own style and the tunes I am particulaly enjoying playing at the momement are my local ones .... from 200 years ago. Lucky enough to have 3 great MS, Hardy (well actually that's a BOGOF), Winter and very soon Rose from just a few miles from my house. Tim Laycock and Colin Thompson are due to release a Facsimile of Rose's book over the next month or so!   Yay In fact I'm going to see them playing some of the tunes down at the West Country Christmas Carols Weekend this weekend! Wahoo.

Anyone else going?

Cheers, A


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 06:33 AM

"13th Century post card from York Minster" didn't know they did post cards in the 13th century, if they did I'd sack the post man, that's some late delivery!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 12:47 PM

He does make the point, however, that its only for beginners.

If it's good enough for Jordi Savall, it's good enough for me, though Savall is a dedicated gamba player, even on his medieval vielles, which doesn't tie in so good with the iconography. I'm happy fiddling over the elbow, but the vielle was played up high - often way up on the shoulder. Seriously, I reckon frets died out as the differentiations between guitar and vielle became more obvious: higher bridge, greater curve, increased neck angle, and the fact that high playing is more a matter of feel than sight. Those vielles you see fretted (such as the York postcard) I reckon were plucked as well; the more violin-like the vielle gets, the harder it is to play it plucked with any degree of dynamic.

I'm currently in a bit of a dilema because the violin doesn't readily lend itself to my pluralist approach to fiddle playing (all four of my fiddles require radically different playing positions) but it remains essential to the scheme of things in it's fretted form. What is a boy to do? Easy - live by the idiosyncratic rule until such a time as one may afford one of THESE.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 12:19 PM

Oh yes, forgot…'Apollo's Banquet for the Violin' by John Playford begins with a short instrucion as to how to play the violin. He recommends tying frets made of gut onto the neck and gives instructions as to how to do it. He does make the point, however, that its only for beginners.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 12:16 PM

'and in Beverly Minster it seems that the fiddle & guitar was, in fact, one and the same instrument played by one and the same player.'
My theory, for what its worth is that the Beverley sculptures were done by the same sculptor as did the Gothic Hall figures in Bruges. The faces and style are virtually identical. That being the case I guess you should go to Bruges to check out the Musical Instrument museum. If this fails to enlighten there's always the 400 + Belgian beers to sample before the ferry comes back.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 08:17 AM

Firstly there is nothing like a 'school' of English fiddling, each player is idiosyncratic and most usually, self-taught. Secondly, there is a uniform disregard for tonality, even in the most accomplished players such as Ned Pearson.

That will be my fiddle credo from henceforth, Paul. Being a string player more accustomed to fretted instruments, I've fretted my fiddle with the same 16lb fishing line I use on my crwths & medieval fiddle, thus bringing myself more in line with the first clause than the second. I take heart that fretted fiddles are illustrated on a 13th century post-card from York Minster - and in Beverly Minster it seems that the fiddle & guitar was, in fact, one and the same instrument played by one and the same player. Check out pictures 2 & 9 in a bunch I took there back in the summer.

Medieval Musicians : Beverley Minster

In both, the sculptor (and the restorer) has gone to pains to feature strings rather than frets, but I reckon this is a low-bridged fretted instrument, and it's the same chap playing it, bowed in one and plucked in the other. I also reckon the idiosyncratic fiddle style is a folk memory of such musicians and the uniform disregard for tonality is most likely due to an absense of frets. This begs the question as to why English fiddlers didn't fret their fiddles. I reckon the answer is the same as today - in fear of being sneered at by more accomplished musicians. Myself, I have no such qualms; both my crwths are fretted, likewise my violins and medieval fiddle, though my Black Sea Fiddles / Lyra remain unfretted because it's never been an issue. Oddly, I never had such problems on the double-bass, fretless electric bass likewise...

Meanwhile, I still study the old unfretted fiddlers in awe and deference however idiosyncratic & out-of-tune they might sound to modern ears - and Jim Eldon too, of course, whose playing is examplary in every respect; Michael Hurdley likewise, and that old Catskill fiddler on YouTube, circa 1929, none of whom seem to the same intonation problems as I do. I have an old unfretted fiddle I pick up from time to time; domestically it's no problem at all, but I know if I take it out I'll quickly regret it...


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 07:02 AM

De fine English Folk Music is great.

De rubbish English folk music - really is rubbish.

Simple really.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 05:18 AM

I once attended a workshop at the National Folk Festival at Sutton Bonnington run by Paul Burgess. I found the comment made at the time, 'there are very few recordings of English traditional fiddlers' a bit of a challenge. Since that time I've collected every recording I could find and have come to two conclusions which, although probably observed elsewhere in this thread, always cause younger musicians some annoyance. Firstly there is nothing like a 'school' of English fiddling, each player is idiosyncratic and most usually, self-taught. Secondly, there is a uniform disregard for tonality, even in the most accomplished players such as Ned Pearson. What there is, however, is a strong pulse. This is analogous with the playing of many eastern European players. (for what its worth)
I added this merely to point out that there is a world of difference between 'repertoire' (the actual melodies) and the actual tradition of playing the fiddle. Clearly the repertoire is available to any instrument that will play a melody, the fiddling tradition, such as it is, seems to be different to this.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 01:44 PM

Can someone suggest one or more websites that have free downloadable sheet music and audio files of traditional English Folk music?

I play an Irish pennywhistle and have mostly played Celtic tunes. This weekend I listened to a fiddle/mandolin player perform some 18th century English tunes , and I'd like to learn to play some of them.

Thanks,

Frank


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 12:46 PM

My definition looks a bit ambiguous on re-reading. Perhaps it should be "instead of a crotchet, playing the same note three times. Generally occurs on the beat, ie 1 and 3 in the bar".


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 12:43 PM

Trebles( I think the term triples is also used) means playing a triplet with the bow on a crotchet when playing a reel. (It may mean other things to other people, that was what I was talking about). It is sometimes notated as threee quavers with a line and a 3 over them, sometimes as two semi-quavers and a quaver. The third note is often taken in one bow with the note that follows.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 12:37 PM

John's previously referenced Village Music Project should give you a few more as well, Bryan. Try some of 'Billy Tilts' as well - Dunno if he plays grace notes but he did play in what is now our folk club:-)

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 12:23 PM

greg stephens

There is a also a followup from the Snail to my earlier remarks about English fiddlers and rolls, trebles and decorations: he asked for chapter and verse on this in MS collections. I suggest a look at the copies of William Irwin's notebooks,

I asked for examples. I want to know and learn. William Irwin's MS on the VMP has quite a few grace notes, one tune with trills marked and one (Lal(Little) Schottische,The. WI.092) with some trills and something that might be called rolls. (I've never come across the word trebles used for a decoration before.)

That gives me something to work on.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,ALex Fiddle
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:17 PM

INteresting points, thanks people,

I guess coming from a different angle shold make my way of playing English tunes individual anyway....

I've experimenting with differnt rhythm ideas in English trad but it's hard to translate musical ideas from the written page to actually playing it, however ... it's getting me really enthusiastic though for one project i'm involved in at the moment; recording short tutorial videos demonstrating a particular technique with differnt tutors a bit like the Ayepod site but covering a wider range of trad music from the UK and Ireland. Could be  a very useful resource, it think.a x


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:19 AM

Re lack of recordings of traditional fiddlers: a lot of people forget that Fellside put out an LP of Geoff Purvis and his band called "Border Fiddler", and it is out on CD again.Just because Geoff was young at the time(1970 maybe) doesn't mean that he wasn't traditional! That sort of fiddling didn't become part of the canon of "English country music" when that genre got going in the 70's....Cumbria and Northumbria were written of as part of Scotland by that fraternity, as far as I could judge. But self-evidently traditional music in the north is surely just as traditional as music in the south.
Isn't it a shame there isn't much recorded trad English fiddling? And, as far as I am aware, no recording whatsoever of trad Welsh.Maybe somebody could point me in the right direction if there is any, but I've never heard any yet. (I mean trad, not reconstruction trad, there is loads of that getting going now, and very good too).


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:10 AM

There are a couple of references to Tony Weatherall and Neil Brooke's Whitchurch Hornpipe CD, earlier in this thread. Here is the Musical Traditions Magazine review I wrote. I strongly recommend the record, and the remarks I make in the review about Welsh fiddlers are, I hope, also relevant to the stuff about Welsh music earlier in the thread.
   There is a also a followup from the Snail to my earlier remarks about English fiddlers and rolls, trebles and decorations: he asked for chapter and verse on this in MS collections. I suggest a look at the copies of William Irwin's notebooks, which you can find at the Village Music Project website (I hope the decorations are reproduced, I have't actually checked). There are many other examples.This is not the place for a long discussion on the value of notebook evidence as a relibal guide to performance styles, but that is something you obviously have to consider with care.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 07:33 AM

Spot on, Swarbrules. People forget that it wasn't called "folk music" in the past, it was just music, and people played with whatever there was to hand.
I think the huge body of printed collections can be used in conjunction with the styles of what remains of recorded music from the turn of the last century onwards to create a new tradition. The best English fiddle players are individuals, ploughing their own furrow with whatever they can find. The same can be said for the Welsh styles, they can be reinvented with the little there remains and the imaginations of the new players. It's really quite exciting at the end of the day.
x e


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Swarbrules
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:08 AM

"As for styles etc, I believe that we have become far too academic and removed from the original source. "

Perhaps I should have used the word "precious".

Of course there are original sources available in the form of old collections and old recordings. Steven Baldwin has been mentioned and I have fiddle collections from the North and from East Anglia. In all of them it is difficult to define a style owing to the poor recording and, let us not mince words, the less than brilliant playing. However, because these exist are we to take them as the pardigms of English style and so shun any modern playing that differs from these set models?

I prefer to look at more abstract sources, like Hardy, that can give us clues. There was a great furore when Fairport and Steeleye came on the scene because traditional musicians did not use electric instruments. Of course they didn't: for obvius reasons but, you can bet your life that they would have seized on any instrument that would have helped them get more beer for their night's work. Hardy, as well, gives us an insight into the competence (or otherwise) of rural musicians. We are, perhaps led astray by memories of Swarb playing for the dance in Far from the Madding Crowd or from the professionals in smocks and breeches who turn up in costume dramas. Go back to Baldwin and other early recordings to see what our forebears listened to.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:52 AM

"Although I can usually spot a Bampton tune played by a Bampton musician, there is something unique about that."

I'm intruigued...


"As for styles etc, I believe that we have become far too academic and removed from the original source. "

Are there not still 'original sources' still in existence?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Swarbrules
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:01 AM

This is not going off topic so, please bear with me. I play Welsh music, where the fiddle tradition all but died out for many years, only reviving in the 50s and 60s. There is, therefore, no traditional style. Does this then, make the music less authentic? Of course not. Look, as well, at the collection of John Thomas, an eighteenth century Welsh fiddler, and you will find, among all the traditional tunes, snatches of Handel's Water Music. Then there is John Clare's collection from deepest Northamptonshire with several Welsh tunes included. Why are these anomolies there? Because they were popular and the fiddler or whoever, got paid to entertain. And music can travel a long way. Listen to the Welsh tune On Tredegar Moor http://www.ukmagic.co.uk/song_welsh/ar_ben_waun_tredegar.html
and compare it to Waters of Tyne. Should one country, therefore, have it removed from its traditional canon? And who can lay claim to Soldier's Joy? Isn't this so universal that every country can accept it as part of their tradition?

As for styles etc, I believe that we have become far too academic and removed from the original source. Thomas hardy talks about the village band playing for dances and church services. A mish-mash of musicians of varying competence playing whatever they could lay their hands on. There may have been individual players who rose above the ranks and brought their own style to the music but, most of the time it would have been a group of amateurs helping their fellow villagers to dance and get drunk.

All hail these fellows. We all them our existence. Somewhere in the mist of time, one of our ancestors was probably the direct result of the dancing and drinking.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 03:20 PM

I hope they have their own style.
EastAnglia has notable differences in style,Percy Brown was quite different from OscarWoods,who was different again from Font Watling,CyrilBarber was instantly recognisable and couldnt be confused with anyone else.
Walter Bulwer was different from Eely Whent,and Billy Bennington was different from BananaCooper, Reg Reeder differed from both Bennington and Cooper,vive la difference,if they all sounded the same,it would be boring.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 06:24 AM

Ah, yes, Neil Brookes is another excellent English fiddler.

I should have mentioned that Roy Clinging and Neil Brookes are doing an all-day workshop on Cheshire and North Shropshire tunes for any instrument at the Lewes Arms on Saturday 22nd. November. Like all our tutors, they perform at the club in the evening.

Also, Mary Humphreys and Anahata are doing one on Fenland tunes for any instrument on Saturday 20th. September. They don't play fiddle, but they do have an English regional style.

Will Dukes's all-day workshop on the tunes of Scan Tester for any instrument on Saturday 5th. July is sold out, but we have some tickets left for his performance in the evening.

We meet every Saturday night as a folk club and don't stop for August. Only Christmas, New Year and Bonfire stop us if they fall on a Saturday.

Valmai (Lewes)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Lynn W
Date: 28 Jun 08 - 05:18 PM

For anyone wanting to abuse their credit card a little, there is a new CD out, The Whitchurch Hornpipe, with Neil Brookes on fiddle and Tony Weatherall on melodeon. All the tunes are from Shropshire manuscripts and many don't appear elsewhere. I got a copy at Beverley and it's not been off the CD player since!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 07:14 PM

she is very good.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 07:02 PM

If we're now talking about English fiddle then I have to cite Paul Burgess and Floss Headford (both of the Old Swan Band) as being my idea of the epitome of English fiddle - dignified but with dirt under it's fingernails. I don't have the academic knowledge to assert that it's authentic but it sounds and feels right. So exciting - I love it.
Hi 'Liza - you're not bad either. Need a melodeon player??
Martin


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 06:22 PM

hi Eliza,sorry about the caps locks.
my biggest regret is that Julia Clifford offered to teach me the fiddle,this would have been about 1982,when she was living in Norfolk,and I didnt, partly because I thought I was too old ,and partly because I was obsessed with the concertina.
I think the fiddle is the most expressive instrument,and Iam still trying to learn it,when I am about eighty,I might get it and then ill drop dead.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 02:06 PM

So as an interested non-fiddler, can anyone post a few recommendations of "definitive" (or at least "so-called definitive") recordings of the different styles, please?

My sorely abused credit card is throbbing with anticipation...

Cheers,

Nigel

PS: Eliza - "The hinterland of what-the-fuck"... priceless!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: irishenglish
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 01:46 PM

Would have given my right foot for more recordings of English trad fiddlers when I was growing up, and now. Not my right arm though, because I need that, obviously...

Can't imagine why Eliza! Very interesting point though.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 01:40 PM

hiya dick
   And more emphasis on the CAPS LOCK it seems too! Do you know, I have never studied and very rarely play any Celtic music at all, so my experience with the Salsas may just be particular to that clique of people. The fiddle styles in Edinburgh, the Irish and Scots musicians that play there, do seem to meld a lot.
I love the Quebecois triplet on the bow, that's more like a hiccup than what you hear over here-me and Nancy K spent a lot of time learning the up-down-up of that rather than the down-up-down we were used to. It's all the little distinguishing things, isn't it?
Of course, what has survived to a much greater extent in Ireland and Scotland is the tiny differences in regional styles, if you don't live in a place like Edinburgh. I can really only differentiate between Northern and Southern in England, North-Western and North-Eastern at a push if I don't know the tunes already. Although I can usually spot a Bampton tune played by a Bampton musician, there is something unique about that.
Would have given my right foot for more recordings of English trad fiddlers when I was growing up, and now. Not my right arm though, because I need that, obviously...
x e


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 01:38 PM

go to web tv tg4,then ceol cartlann,then canuinti ceol for 4/ 5 /2008,and at about eight minutes 38,you have whatIam referring to.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 01:26 PM

Eliza,that is interesting ,because only last week on tg4,there was a programme about Sliabh Luchra fiddlers,and one of the fiddlers was saying thatSliabh Luchra style was different from other Irish styles in that there was more emphasis on the up bow,certainly KERRY POLKAS are often played with an emphasis on the off beat.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 12:55 PM

The difference between Celtic styles and English styles for me as a fiddle player is definitely rhythm. While a lot of the tunes have the same roots the lilt is totally different-I had real trouble playing with Salsa Celtica because the tunes are constructed for several notes per bow and around finger patterns that repeat rather than melody as such (making the phrases almost like decorations in themselves, decorations made up of several bars), whereas English tunes sound better with only one or very few. Also the emphasis seems to be on the up-bow rather than the down, although this does vary between the Northern style which tends towards the faster and more fluid, say for Longsword or Rapper, and Southern Morris and country tunes.
x e


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 12:56 PM

GUEST,Fiddle PLayer

Who is Ian Salter?

Is that you, Alex? It gets very confusing if you don't post under a consistent name.

Ian Salter is a fiddler (from Hastings, I think) who turns up to the Trevor occasionally. He plays in a somewhat idiosyncratic style with the fiddle held against his chest, strings pointing to the right. He seems to keep the bown moving along the same vertical line and turn the fiddle to change strings. He is well worth listening to.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Stu
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 05:05 AM

"I do indeed attend that Cheshire session!"

Nice to see you - I'm the fat bouzouki player that treads on your foot five times an evening on my way to the bar : )

Not been for a while due to developing bad tinnitus, but hope to be back soon.

Stu


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Fiddle PLayer
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 04:17 AM

Who is Ian Salter?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 04:15 AM

I do indeed attend that Cheshire session!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:41 AM

Several people have cheerfully stated that there is evidence that English fiddlers did use rolls and trebles and such Or, perhaps it is more accurate to say there is plenty of evidence that they wrote them down. (Greg) but can anyone guide me to some actual accessible examples? I'm not doubting it; I'm genuinely interested.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 09:08 AM

I'll get you after school Jon
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:39 AM

Here's some good folk music for you, Jim Carrol.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: Stu
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:17 AM

Howard, do you by any chance often attend a session at a country pub somewhere in Cheshire?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:45 AM

Well, I'm off to Glastonbury this minute, where the sessions round the campfire often run till breakfast (whenever that may be).


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 05:33 AM

Joining a morris team would be a good way to get the feel for the southern dance rhythm and feel - although, IMHO, to be a good Morris musician you need to be at least a reasonable Morris dancer


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:56 AM

Festival sessions can be very polarised, a lot of people who mau not know each other very well all trying to play their own music, as you say, and reluctant to see it diluted by other styles. In a regular session where you get to know the other musicians you also get to know what is acceptable, and once accepted you can perhaps introduce something different.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Alex Fiddle
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 07:51 PM

well the really -ve experiences have been at festivals... where there are, i suppose, a lot of different musicians jostling for time and space to play their own music...so tensions are high.... i'm pretty thick skinned though.....

session list looks good, i'll try and make some.... same goes for the workshops...great stuff!

morris.. maybe... my dad played and danced for many years.... i'm prob too busy to commit to anything else at the moment, though..

oh and 10.30!!!!!!! i quite regularly arrive at sessions at this time.... quite a few that i go to occasionally in london go on 1 2 3 even 4.....! a bit rough if you're working the next day, granted....

thanks again,

alex


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 05:31 PM

Hmm... Both Irish sessions I go to finish at 10:30. I've a feeling the English session in the same pub as one of the Irish ones finishes at 11:00 (I think they only have the earlier finish for music on a Sunday.)

Of course there's no shortage of players who would go on a lot later...


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 05:13 PM

GUEST,Valmai Goodyear

see the Snail's excitingly dynamic page

She gets excited over the smallest things.

I meant to say -

my only complaint is that it ends at 11. That's just when I wake up.... afterwards I went down into Brighton where the Irish session continues on 'till 12.30!

You may have spotted one of the significant differences between English and Irish sessions. Another which has now passed into history is the never smoked but permanently smouldering roll-up in the ashtray.

Another thought; have you considered joining Brighton Morris?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 03:28 PM

In that case, Alex, I owe you an apology for implying that you were knocking Will's session at the Trevor. The next one will be on Monday 14th July. For that and other sessions in the area, see here. I don't think anybody had any problems with you fitting in apart from a little envy on the part of some of the other fiddlers.

I have been told in no uncertain terms that I 'don't belong' in other English sessions!!!!

Now you've got me intrigued. I certainly wasn't at THAT session. I go to quite a few and can't think of any where that would happen.

I have to tread carefully for fear of offending others, but I don't think we have anyone round here of the quality you are looking for. (I have no problem with the "been a novice for a long time" tag for myself.) This is more concertina and melodeon country but several of the fiddlers have a lot to offer even if they aren't technically brilliant. As Greg says, you can learn a lot about English traditional music by spending plenty of time listening to Will and Dan. Dogan may be horribly young but he has an instinct for English trad. (Approximate quote "English traditional music is great and if it takes a Turk to tell people about it, so be it."). I've known Matt and Mike since before they were born amd to see them develop (and leave me choking in their dust) has been a delight.

Try and get to hear some of the people that John Adams and Dazbo have mentioned (I'd add Paul Sartin and Kathryn Tickell and Emma Reid.) I don't think Chris Bartram plays in public these days which is a great pity. Get his recordings if you can.

It's there if you look but Lau's way isn't the only way of doing it.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Valmai Goodyear
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 03:02 PM

Alex, it's good to hear from you. I've been at the Trevor when you were there and thoroughly enjoyed hearing you play. I'm absolutely sure you'd be more than welcome at all the similar sessions in the area. Are you free to come to the John Harvey Tavern in Lewes on Tuesday 1st. July? Dan and Matt Quinn are leading.

For broadly English sessions in Sussex and Surrey, see the Snail's excitingly dynamic page here .

For more guidance on English fiddling from someone definitely beyond the novice class, come to Paul Sartin's all-day workshop at the Lewes Arms on Saturday 6th. December this year. Paul Hutchinson leads an accordion workshop at the same time, but not in the same room, and the two perform at the Lewes Arms in the evening as Belshazzar's Feast.

Another fiddler whose name I haven't noticed in the thread is the excellent Emma Reid, who plays as a duo with Rob Harbron and in the quartet Methera. She did a workshop for us last November.

Next year's fiddle workshops at the Lewes Arms will be led by:

Tom McConville (Saturday 28th. March - I think you came to his last one)

Nancy Kerr (probably the first or second Saturday in June - this is going to be a monster full weekend with five all-day workshops from Nancy on fiddle, James Fagan on bouzouki, Rob Harbon on English concertina, Nancy and James on vocal harmony, and Rob on tunes from the Winter manuscript for any instrument; they'll perform as a trio on the Saturday night)

and Tommy Peoples (Saturday 12th. September).

I think you'd enjoy all of these for different reasons.

Tootle pip,

Valmai


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Alex Fiddle
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 01:41 PM

I should add....that actualy at the Trevor I thought the people there were very welcoming! Believe me Snail, if there were views on me not fitting in that night, they were very subtle because I didn't notice... I have been told in no uncertain terms that I 'don't belong' in other English sessions!!!! Which is why I was rather quiet... didn't want to put my foot in my mouth incase it led to someone else's foot joining it!

Anyone thinking of going to that session should, my only complaint is that it ends at 11. That's just when I wake up.... afterwards I went down into Brighton where the Irish session continues on 'till 12.30!

best regards,
Alex


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Define English Trad Music
From: GUEST,Alex Fiddle
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 01:27 PM

Hey Snail,

well yes it's the right Alex, although I wasn't really thinking of the Trevor Arms, only went there 1 1/2 times and didn't want to play because of previous experience of other English sessions. (if people thought I was good, I could just be good at pretending to play!!)

I actualy enjoyed it a lot, and picked up a number of new tunes, but if I play them now, they'd sound a bit differnt in rhythm emphasis.

I knew that "novice for a long time" comment was gonna come back to bite me! That was just to get my point across, I meant "lack of experienced mentor" rather than 'bunch of beginners'! And I do like Mike's, Matt's and Doe's fiddle playing, but again they do not fulfill the 'expereinced mentor' role in the same way as.....
...well...
.... I've been very fortunate to have sat in, on occasion, (alas not regularly...mostly at festivals) in various Irish/Scottish sessions with the likes of Chris Stout, Aidan O'Rourke, Sam Proctor, Brendan McGlinchey, Ben Paley, Clare Mann, Alisdair White, John McCusker, Oisin Mac Diarmada....and more... where I can watch and listen and see clearly what I have to work on... something I haven't been able to do at an English session.

I'd like to come over to the Trevor again... when is it?

Al


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