What do you consider Folk?

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:41 PM

"Just because a professional (i.e., "commercial") performer makes his/her living on a relatively modest scale, rather than by playing huge arenas, does NOT ipso facto make them folk performers."

I agree, that is not what I meant. As you noted "a performer might well learn to reach using a very calculated, strategic approach" and that is a different perspective, reason AND tradition that separates them from the community.

Many of the source singers that we can thank were paid - that does not negate that the song came out of a folk tradition.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:48 PM

With no offence to anyone on this thread, I have come to detest the term 'folk music'.

Folk songs have informed and thus helped me write the non-folk stuff I do these days. They are songs from my past that my grandfather taught me. But he played harmonica, piano and had a wonderful tenor voice. He sang songs he liked. That's all. He was never hung up on what 'kind' of song it was. His musical tastes were many and varied. IMO, he would not have understood what all the arguing is about.

BTW, he was English--from the UK.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM

ah well! blody English! they're always causing trouble. getting pissed and fighting with the Irish, calling the Welsh taffys and the Scots a load of mean gits.

you were off to shakey start with such disreputable antecedents, Bruce.

better off where you are, I'd keep quiet about the English. they're not popular, and many of them have strange sexual habits.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Penny S.
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:10 PM

I've been worrying about songs I grew up with which came from Community Song Books published by newspapers for crowds to sing together in halls in the 20s and 30s. And the National Song Book, published for schools. Some are not what I would think of as folk, having named authors, such as Arne, but others are clearly rooted in a folk tradition, while edited for polite society. (Sometimes not what we would think of as polite when the source is south of the Mason-Dixon line.) Some are like Villikins and his Dinah, which has passed through the music hall.

Are these songs folk?

Penny

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: GUEST,Jayto
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:11 PM

I never really stated the reason for starting this thread. For years now I have ran into VERY biased musicians and fans. Die hards for whatever genre they prefer have always gone out of thier way to point out why I am not thier particular favorite genre. Now almost everyone has been cool about it with some exceptions but in general they have been cool about my playing and cool to me. After years of hearing from different people "your too rock." , "your too folk.", "your too country." I thought well I'll just ask what folk is. I think this was one of my first posts on here. I have really enjoyed reading everyone's posts. Musically I am just going to be me and play what I like to play. Out of curiosity I just wanted to ask. Thanks for the posts
JT

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:10 PM

Well, if you've learned anything from this, it's that there are as many definitions of "folk" as there are people wanting to offer definitions.

I've argued for my particular point of view pretty often, probably too often. I've seen these "What Is Folk?" thread title pop up over and over again, and often tell myself that I won't even open them up and read them, let alone participate. But sooner or later, I usually yield to temptation and start shooting my big mouth off.

Every time I do so, I seem to learn at least a little something, and/or to develop a little deeper insight. Here's my latest musing:

My usual argument (or "hobbyhorse"), that the "real" folk music of today's world includes a wide variety of well-known stuff not all of which meets most other folks' meanings of "Folk," is based on my idea of the function of folk music ~ i.e., what is the commonly-known music shared among people who play and sing for their own edificaton and amusement, and who are alive today?

Folk music as a label is an entirely different concept. What meaning of "Folk" serves the useful purpose of identifying one style of performance, one binful of recordings, one concert series, one festival, etc., from others? In this context, a much narrower meaning is called for than that of my vision of "what functions as our folk music today."

However, there is some danger, or more preceisely some futility, in arguning for TOO narrow a defintion for the label of "Folk." Labels, indeed words, have no meaning at all beyond whatever meaning is shared by everyone involved.

Some people may wish that the word "folk" would apply only to one tightly restricted category of music ~ the one that they prefer ~ to the exclusion of all others. Unfortunately, widespread agreement on any really definitive meaning is unlikely to ever occur.

We simply have to be satisifed with the status quo, where "folk" has many diverse meanings, but where most of us can perceive the general idea of its meaning in different contexts. We also should be able to recognize circumstances where we won't be sure what meaning is in force.

For example, a given event may be advertised as a "folk concert" or "folk festival." Surely, we should all realize that all different kinds of music may or may not be included when that "magic word" is invoked ~ but, depending upon our knowledge of the context (venue, region, promoter, past history, etc., etc.), we certainly should be able to determine whether the proceedings will be to our individual taste, OR, we should realize that we won't be sure without asking around, doing research, etc.

There is certainly no excuse for showing up for a "folk" event and then protesting that "This isn't folk!" (i.e., "This isn't MY idea of folk!) if you didn't do your homework first.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 06:14 PM

Of course, if you have to depend "...upon our knowledge of the context (venue, region, promoter, past history, etc., etc.), we certainly should be able to determine whether the proceedings will be to our individual taste, OR, we should realize that we won't be sure without asking around, doing research, etc.", you're saying that the word "folk in the "folk concert" or "folk festival" is essential;ly meaningless. Which makes for difficulties in going to hear people of whom you're not familiar, unless you have a lot more spare money and time than I do.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:05 PM

: the musical culture that we all share as "folk" of a common group includes, yes, the best-known
: traditional songs of older English and Celtic English-speaking cultures ~ but it also includes
: the best-known and deservedly enduring songs of the British music-hall and the American
: musical-comedy stage and movie screen, jazz "standards," blues, rock "oldies,"
: country-and-western classics, Stax and Motown, "British Invasion" pop, "singer-songwriter"
: pseudo-folk, etc., etc., etc.

Who is this "we"? I'd never heard of "Stax" until you mentioned it there, I've heard less Motown than Balinese gamelan and a *lot* less C&W than 20th century chamber music. I don't see any point in that random assemblage of genres - are you saying that if you like one you'll like them all? Certainly not true for me - more than half of that list are things I've never paid money to hear and some are things I actively switch off or leave the room to avoid.

Other people have made this point before, but if you aren't a member of the north-east North American middle class your exposure to singer-songwriter music is going to be pretty limited.

You have also left out techno and its descendant genres, which are FAR more prevalent in the public sphere where I am than any of the forms you mention. Just listen to what leaks out of iPods on the bus.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:36 PM

Poppagator-
What you're using as a definition of "folk" is the sociological/cultural anthropological one...how artistic expression fitS into a particular culture. A good and useful definition...but by no means the only one.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:17 AM

"but by no means the only one"

"we should realize that we won't be sure without asking around, doing research, etc.", you're saying that the word "folk in the "folk concert" or "folk festival" is essential;ly meaningless. Which makes for difficulties in going to hear people of whom you're not familiar, unless you have a lot more spare money and time than I do."

Dick, I'm not sure what you are driving at here. You seem to acknowledge that the are different definitions of "folk" based on different positions, but you seem to still argue for a singular definition. Earlier you acknowleged that there are many definitions and that "If anyone really wants to get serious about defining "folk", he should recognize that there are several definitions currently in use: a sociological one, a literary one, a stylistic one, a performance one...and so on and so on."

I think Poppagator's assessment of the "issue" is a very good summary.   We are talking about art and culture, and to force it into pre-sized cubbyholes does a disservice and ignores the infinite influences that make up folk music.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: TinDor
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:01 PM

To me "Folk" music is any nations/ethnic groups, roots music which all of their there forms are roots in. So Appalachian, Blues, Calypso, Samba, Cuban Son etc... are all Folk

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: TinDor
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:06 PM

**To me "Folk" music is any nations/ethnic groups, roots music that all of their forms are rooted in**

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:30 PM

Songs about people and where they live, I don't know, maybe things like this
Songs about love life like this

I'm not sure either would fail content rules some explain to me about what a folk song is. I like them btw but they don't form part of my own "folk music enjoyment".