What do you consider Folk?

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: GUEST,Otis Luxton
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:58 PM

Hello Richard, thanks for your reply.

I'll be honest with you, without wanting to sound arrogant or rude, but your reply has confused me. Where did the 'folk metal' bit come from? - I know i made reference to German Death Metal in my post, but i didnt expect for someone to ask me to look at the roots of 'folk metal'.

But in response, I have experienced and looked at this kind of music. Like you say, you can compare it to Wagner and Nationalism (which can easily be confused with Racism/Facism) and historical/mytholocial kind of stuff. Its quite a popular trend in Scandanavia and northern Europe - for example music such as 'Viking Metal' which exists in Sweden. But just like the 'folky' scene, 'folk metal' it takes a highly stylized music, and encorperates it into another highly stylized music. - im not sure its much to do with roots, rather i feel its to do with mixing two sounds of music to create a 'quirky' and i feel gimmicky kind of music. Still though, you can argue the roots of 'folk' and 'metal' all day long.

Im not sure we can divide 'folk metal' so simply into the two classes of it either being racist/facist or historical mythological though. Although Wagner is known to be Hitlers favourite composer, I feel his music has alot of artistic merit, and is possibly a highlight in the Renaissance of Germanic Culture. - Just because Wagner made what we now call Nationalistic music, it doesent mean he was a Facist. ( which he actually probably might of been, considering his social group/context )

What does IMHO mean?

Otis.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: JHW
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:54 PM

Who pays for all this?

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:51 PM

I came across this in another forum. I thought the person concerned had something interesting to say so I kept it. It refers to instrumental music rather than song, but much could be applied to song:

Traditional music, in my opinion, harks back to a time when communities were a horse ride away from each other and styles were localised. Tunes would be played at celebrations and would be known tunes within a particular community or group of communities. At weddings and other celebrations, dances would be a form of community bonding. Knowing the steps would be a form of cohesion, of belonging. New dances and styles would be slowly absorbed from the periphery, variations from the next village etc. Occasionally a newcomer would bring something new – a new instrument, a new dance a, new tempo, a new variation. This would be absorbed into the culture and molded into the repertoire. The industrial revolution started to distort traditional music, through mass migration, and the opening up of even the most isolated communities to the world. At the same time collectors with wonderful foresight started to gather tunes from areas, preserving in aspic many of the old traditional tunes, before they were lost. Mass communications, firstly radio, then TV, allowed music traditions to be both preserved, and diluted and distorted and marketed. New tunes in the tradition, so to speak, were composed in their thousands.
Lastly, the Internet has allowed musicians to communicate directly with each other, and express their own views on the traditional music, they can hear tunes from around the world. On the one hand all these modern innovations (from transport, through mass communications to the internet) have diluted traditional music and spread it to the four winds to be played by any musician with a whim to play it. Here in Scotland I can happily collect Appalachian music, Northumbrian music or Japanese music and add them to my repertoire of local tunes. Some I meet will only play local tunes, others have their specialities, cajun, bluegrass, shanties etc etc etc.

The important thing to me is that these tools have also allowed people who care about the traditional music of a locality to study and preserve it too. There will always be people who believe that the music should be preserved at all costs while others are open to any and all influences. One day, with the passing of oil, and mankind being thrown back onto the resources of the local community, the time may come again when a style of music and dance will identify us with a particular locality. Meantime we live in a time of unbounded richness of music, and I for one will play anything if it is a good tune and stirs some emotion in me and those who will listen to me.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:38 PM

Otis, IMHO you need to read a lot of the linked threads here before accepting what WMD (oops, WLD) says - he has opposed the linkage of "folk" as a concept to what has gone before ever since I first online met him, and it is contrary to the ideology of a "folk art" however you slice it.

If you want to conceptualise the ideology of "folk" from a modern perspective, it would be useful to investigate the roots of "folk metal" which I at best imperfectly understand (but for an old fogey I am learning) but which I understand largely divides into two classes - the racist/fascist on the one hand and the historical/mythological on the other (funny, I wonder where Wagner goes).

I have a view that differs from yours (and his) but at this stage I urge you merely to review the old phrase "analysis before synthesis".

BTW old as I am I have pretty recently done sound for grunge postgrunge and metal bands and I am not unreceptive to re-invention, but we all have roots.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: GUEST,Otis Luxton
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:19 PM

Weelittledrummer - i guess there will be more of the otherside, being Mudcat and all. but thanks for reading though. Im glad you think its the truth too. :)

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:15 PM

ps the other side always win the argument though - there are more of them!

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:14 PM

No Otis. Its very reassuring to hear from a young person like yourself that the accepted 'truths' and truisms of the folk revival are being questioned somewhere other than on the threads of mudcat.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: GUEST,Otis Luxton
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:04 PM

In my belife...

Peoples ideas of the word 'folk music' are a romantacised myth. Its the same with the word 'traditional music'. You cant define a tradition of an art form- its simply a contrived style as is all musical and art 'styles'. Of course you can say that this contrived style is what we now call 'Folk Music' or 'Traditional Music' - but you have to ask yourseves should people really be attaching the word 'Folk' or 'Traditional' to this style of playing or singing. I find It hard to say that 'Folk Music' is in other words the 'Peoples Music' because then you seperate it to any other stylised form of music, claiming that such genres such as pop, rock and classical arent the 'peoples music'- people made this music, and therefore it belongs to them.

As for tradition, all music is traditional. All music follows patterns, cliches, contrived forms, even if the maker of that music is trying to make something completely new. Hip Hop is a traditonal form. There isnt a certain age or popularity something has to be to become traditional. It becomes traditional through continuity, which I feel all art forms have; so why link it to only one style of music?

Call me synical, but I feel many 'folkies' as they like to be known can be very snobbish on what they feel folk music is. I think they they feel 'folk music' is a more pure, true and honest form of music. - Infact i feel the contrary about what they would call 'folk music' Ironically, I belive its stagnant and has lost any continuity because of that and thus looses its status of being a Traditional form. - of course many would argue that this type of music isnt stagnant, and is ever evolving - in my honest opinion, i dont think it is evolving (not enough to call itself 'traditonal' form anyway)

Maybe on their folk festival line up next year, these so called 'folkies' should visit an illegal techno rave in thetford forest or maybe a three day german heavy metal concert because I feel these are the truest forms to a 'folk festival' today.

I have no problems with people playing/singing 'folk' music or 'traditional' music - I would just rather that it not be called folk/traditional because I belive this is a bastardisation of words which carry alot of meaning and weight. Furthermore much 'folk' music also carries alot of meaning and weight, so we must treasure this like all other forms of music and art which also carry alot of meaning and weight. - No art or music form is superior to another, because they all have meaning and a social/historical context - wether it be Harry Cox singing 'what will become of England' or Girls Aloud on MTV.

In conclusion, the way I see 'folk' music is that is that it is like a medieval re-enactment society. - We perform what we thought music was like many years ago. Often idealising it, or romantacising it. A theatrical performance of History. We treat the music like a play, as the re-enactment society does - a spectacle for others to observe. As Antonin Artaud would put it - Deadly Theatre.

I happen to be studying a Degree in Folk and Traditonal music at Newcastle University, which doesent make me superior or educated in any way. I dont want to give the impression that because I am studying 'Folk and Traditonal' music it makes me more knowledgeable than anyone else in any way because i dont feel like this - But if anything, it has made me look more critically at the 'folk' scene. Maybe not coming from a 'folky' family, its all a bit of a shock to the system.


I hope what i have said isnt too dysjunct or intelligable - ive just had too much coffee.

Please feel free to send me hate mail at [e-mail]

Otis.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:45 PM

Goodness me! I thought everyone knew what I thought was folk. 1954 definition.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:02 AM

I couldn't agree more with Bill D.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Jayto
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:51 AM

Not everyone was raised up around alot of folk music. They may have came to it and "discovered" it later in thier musical journey. Then they have to play catch up with others that may have grew up hearing it and/or been into the scene longer. In turn alot of times they will take songs they are familiar with and try to make them sound folk. The whole time they are discovering and learning true folk music. I always try to give people credit on this and really I think everyone should. Kind of like a learning curve you know. I might get upset if someone comes up saying " I am going to play a folk song." and then busts out Metallica on an acoustic guitar. Unless they were joking about the folk nature of the song then I would laugh. Hell I'd laugh one way or another on that one lol. Metallica did do a version of Whiskey in a Jar though lol (at this moment I a ducking from flying debris being hurles at me from members on of this board lol). We can't expect someone that wants to play and sing or someone that already does play or sing to stop playing or singing until they build up a large volume of "True" folk songs. Even if they did we can't even decide what folk really is or is not and have ran across more ultra talented folk singers,writers, and musicians on this page than I have anywhere else ever. Just wanting everyone to keep that in mind and be something this world is not very much of anymore----tolerant.
cya

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:34 AM

as one of the most insistent 'trad' defenders, I find I kinda like the definitions offered by " llareggyb "

" anything goes for us so long as it has entered the general cultural consciousness, at least that of the "folkie" community (definiton of folkie: people like us)

This is the basic attitude I 'put up with', as long as newish, songwriter, commercial stuff doesn't become the majority. This IS how various music becomes folk/trad, so it needs to be recognized. Unfortunately, for some of us...(like me)... the process goes much too fast these days, and people want to include everything THEY liked or were familar with as kids...so the Beatles and Dylan are being offered status in just one generation.

Anyway, if an evening includes ONLY a few such things that have recently"entered the general cultural conciousness", I'll survive.
(unless the evening/event has been specifically planned as a trad/folk event!)

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:32 AM

It all depends on how you punctuate the question

1) what do you consider folk? (do you know that one by The Spinners?)

2) what...... do you consider folk?(how is your sense of social rsponsiblity?)

3) What! do you consider, folk? (do you think a lot?)

4) What do you? consider folk! (what are you up to? give it some consideration!)

As someone said there seven types of ambiguity, people aren't aware of the layers of profound meaning that lie hidden in these seemingly dull repetitious questions.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:27 AM

Actually, the line Dylan used in ONE TOO MANY MORNINGS, was 'she was right from her side and I was right from mine" is a direct steal from Woody Guthrie who was talking about his divorce from Mary Guthrie. It's in AMERICAN FOLKSONG, ya could look it up!


Mark Ross

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:10 AM

Songs from the bygone age which has been passed down through the ages to the present down or you have modern folk which most people listen to at festivals through bands and groups.I prefer the earlier version.

Scooby

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:05 AM

"One Too Many Mornings" is a Bob Dylan composition, hence the witty footnote "trad., arr. Zimmerman" when WLD quoted that line about "you're right from your side and I'm right from mine."

It's one of Bob's earliest published works, but I did not realize it was old enough to have been recorded by the Kingston Trio.

**********************************

The range of opinions among Mudcat members on this topic ~ strongly held opinions ~ is absoutely astounding. I remember reading a message from one of our British brethern that any music played on the guitar is phony modern non-folk tripe! That would probably sound pretty crazy to a new member from Kentucky ~ huh, Jayto?

My own opinion, already expressed too many times, is pretty radically at the other end of the spectrum. I believe that folk music for the folk of today's electronically-interconnected world includes anything I could sing and play on a streetcorner in front of a bunch of strangers that they would recognize, enjoy, and perhaps even be able to sing along with. That would include Beatles songs, Dylan songs, composed-in-Nashville numbers like "Long Black Veil" or "You Don't Know Me," Motown classics, even garage-band faves like "Louie Louie" and Hey Joe" ~ but NOT necessarily all of the the more obscure and mostly-forgotten numbers so loved by the more "purist" wing of the folk-music community.

Just my opinion, of course. I certainly do not begrudge anyone the right to enjoy whatever they like.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:43 AM

Marilyn,

If you're still out there. I seem to have missed your gracious reply to my somewhat facetious comment about HMV.

I always have to smile when I go into one of their shops and contemplate their 'musical categories' - especially when I contrast them with our endless, tortured debates about 'what is folk?'.

You see, to an HMV marketeer it's very simple:

"Folk is anything 'acoustic' but includes 'Folk Rock' whilst excluding anything in the categories, 'Blues', 'Country' or 'World' which happen to be acoustic. Anything that doesn't easily fit into any other category is also included under 'Folk' - for example Welsh Military Bands"

It's so simple, really, I don't know why we get so 'hot under the collar' about it!

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Fidjit
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:28 AM

He often forgets the words to the songs, sings da da la la . . . . .

As collected by C#

Chas

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:31 AM

In my opinion folk is a song having been passed down through generations , telling a story that used to while away the hours either working on a farm, walking long distances, riding in a trap to market (maybe) or being sung in the ale house at the end of a long day, sitting in the warmth of the inglenook fire so that the fuel is saved in the home. I'm sure a lot of the songs were much cruder than the versions sung today that have been 'cleaned' up by 19th century vicars. I also think they were the news papers of their day, hawked about the countryside by balladeers and storytellers; words changing and stories being embroidered.

My observations and my opinions are that these days the Male of the species sings with a finger in the ear and with eyes closed; other hand in the pocket. Quite often the balding, yet also pony tailed male, wears a 'T' shirt, with previous festivals on it, trousers tightly strapped with a belt (under a large, real ale paunch). On the table is a pewter tankard, filled with the favourite brew. On his feet he is wearing the proverbial socks and sandels. He often forgets the words to the songs, sings da da la la and carries on to the next chorus.   He'll very often sing a song with 32 verses because he knows he won't get another look in, and/or as the song drones on he gets slower and slower.

The female of the species usually wears elasticated brightly coloured skirts from the local charity shop, yes another 't' shirt with a previous festival printed upon it, sometimes socks and sandels. when told it's her turn, she looks surprised, can't remember what she's going to sing, says I haven't sung this for ages, starts to sing, voice crackling and clamping her throat or patting her chest,She again sings with her eyes closed and very often forgets the words, and with apologies,giggles with embarrassment and meekly sits down. This song is tollerated by the male of the species, he uses it as a bog break, a time to replenish his pot, and to watch the breasts heave up and down. These comments I feel fall into the traditional meaning of folk and have gone on for generations. Shame we can't go back in time and be flies on the walls of the ale houses where we would see what actually happened. I dare say it's not a lot different, although clay pipes would have been allowed and there wouldn't be a mobile phone or crib sheet in sight.

S

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:57 AM

I have been made to see the error of my ways. I don't do folkmusic.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: llareggyb (inactive)
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:42 AM

For our family open house singalongs, we use a very broad definition: "anything two or three people like to sing and can remember the tune to". Since I sometimes overcomplicate things, my ex has added "and that you can sing in the kitchen while making dinner". We don't make a distinction between "folk" and "world" music -- our song book has songs in at least 8 languages -- but that's a personal choice.

In other words, besides traditional (usually anonymous) folk music, anything goes for us so long as it has entered the general cultural consciousness, at least that of the "folkie" community (definiton of folkie: people like us). That includes commercial &/or contemporary thorough-composed folk music (e.g. Dylan, Ewan MacColl, Stan Rogers, Tarika), old Beatles favourites, Sesame Street counting songs, other children's songs, pop songs of the swing era, you name it: but only if you can sing it a capella or with just a guitar or two, without studio equipment/click track/conductor/session musicians/six rehearsals etc., and if it meets the "you can sing it in the kitchen while making dinner" criterion.

So some of (e.g.) Stan Rogers' songs make the cut, but others fall by the wayside because they are too technically tricky for most of us to remember the tune right or fit the words in. "Mr. Tambourine Man" gets a special dispensation even though it's tricky: getting the words & the tune together in the l-o-n-g last verse often reduces us to giggles, but we like it too much to not include it.

The great thing is, since we are all "folk", you too can have your very own definition of folk music. Leave the arguments to the purists and lexicographers, and just keep on singing!

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Kampervan
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 07:11 AM

Jayto, as others have said, 'Welcome to the world of Mudcat'

It's a great place, but one or two topics always strike a dissonant chord with some members.

When you're thinking about starting a new thread, it always helps to do a site search first to see if the topic has been aired in the past, and what the general tone of the thread was.

If you've got something new to say or ask then fine, go ahead and open the subject up again.

Good luck

K/van

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 07:11 AM

Good folk is folk getting together in a pub and playing/singing & having a drink instead of sitting on their arses vegitating in front of the telly.

PS ..and not agonising over definitions (1954 etc) and "traditions"

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 07:04 AM

The Rolling Stones are great too.. :0)

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Marilyn
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:49 AM

GUEST,Shimrod
in your post of 11 Aug 08 - 12:23 PM

" ... for me, the words 'folk music' mean folk music from the British Isles. Folk music from other cultures is, to me, World Music."

Do you work for HMV by any chance? Do you also consider Welsh Military Band music to be folk music?

I'm not sure whether your question is serious or meant to be a joke but, just in case it's serious, I don't want to be rude and not answer.

No, I don't work for HMV and I don't think I've ever been into one of their shops.
You actually made me think a bit deeper about what I'd written (good thing, yes?). I never actually use the term 'World Music' in my head so traditional Swedish tunes I would think of a Swedish Folk Music, French as French Folk Music etc. What I meant to say, but didn't express very well, is that when I think of 'folk music' I think of traditional British music and I further subdivide that into music that sounds Irish or Scottish or Welsh or English. The more modern stuff isn't folk music TO ME (emphasis because I'm not trying to tell anyone else what to think).

Whether some of the modern stuff will become folk music in the next hundred or two hundred years is irrelevant to this thread because the question is 'What do you consider Folk?' and well, we won't be here in a hundred years time!

And no, I don't think that Welsh Military Band Music is folk music at all - but you don't have to agree with me.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:54 AM

"the fun will really start, when J C arrives."
"101, and no J C,and we are all gettin on politely."
Off topc somewhat:
Cap'n,
That's twice;
I am not involved in this thread and the last thing I need at my time of life is a cyberstalker - please leave me alone.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:24 PM

Weelittledrummer: Didn't John Stewart also use that phrase in "One Too Many Mornings," a song he did while with the Kingston Trio?

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Jayto
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:26 PM

In Ky we have a VERY heavy concentration of English,Irish, and Scottish families. We have always been an economically challenged region (read that as broke broke broke lol) and more years isolated. It was hard to get in because of the mountains and once you were here uh why? No jobs or money were to be had for years. I understand exactley why is would remain pure. I think the term Folk is like the word Mom. Everyone knows what I mean they just think of something different when they hear it.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:30 PM

101, and no J C,and we are all gettin on politely.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:57 PM

100!




(I just thought I would get that out of the way early!)

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

Amen to that WLD

Don T.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:48 PM

You're right from your side and I am right from mine.....

I think Abraham Lincoln said that.
(trad. anon. arranged Zimmerman)

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:39 PM

""That is how I started thinking about it years ago. I am from Ky and to me Appalchian music is my Folk.""

Jayto, there are those who say that to hear REAL English traditional folk songs, you have to listen to the songs that are sung in the Appalachian mountain region of the USA.

There are those who do not, because they truly believe it, and those who do not, because to admit it would be to admit they could learn from Americans (heaven forfend).

It's a minefield of toes with very sensitive corns, and stepping lightly is not just advisable, it is essential.

As a songwriter in the STYLE of the tradition (mostly),who sings and accompanies his own compositions, I am not acceptable to the devotees of traditional folk song in the UK, as either a folk singer, or indeed a folk musician. To the REALLY traditional folkies, I am not accepted as a singer/songwriter, but rather derided as a "Snigger/snogwriter".

None of this affects me in the slightest. I still write what I choose, and sing what I choose, and a sufficient portion of the average audience likes what I do to enable me to get a few paid gigs, and a welcome at most festivals.

What is folk? How the hell would I know? I just keep going and hope that one day someone will say "Your Great Grandfather was one HELL of a folk singer, and I love the songs he left us".

Trouble is, I'll never know.

Don T.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM

It's difficult to imagine any sensible definition of the word that would exclude Roscoe Holcomb and Clarence Ashley.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:06 PM

"now I cant really explain why,but personally I consider blues singers folk music"

You have a very good reason - blues is a folk music tradition!

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Jayto
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:44 PM

lol oh I see lol I read it wrong I thought you included him as folk sorry lol

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:41 PM

cos,I cant stand him.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:23 PM

" ... for me, the words 'folk music' mean folk music from the British Isles. Folk music from other cultures is, to me, World Music."

Do you work for HMV by any chance? Do you also consider Welsh Military Band music to be folk music?

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Jayto
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:10 PM

Captain Birdseye I have a question. Why Barry Manilow? I don't mean any disrespect or anything I just didn't expect to hear him mentioned. I am not real familiar with his work well really at all. I remember my parents had alot of his albums but I never listened to them. Just wondering.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:00 PM

the fun will really start, when J C arrives.
now I cant really explain why,but personally I consider blues singers folk music,singers like Roscoe Holcomb and Clarence Ashley,and also singers like Harry Cox,Roy Harris,Burl Ives[but not always], Ewan Maccoll,PhilTanner,Nic Jones.The Original Carter Family,but not,Johnny Cash, DanielO Donnell and Barry Manilow.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Jayto
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 11:48 AM

That is how I started thinking about it yrs ago. I am from Ky and to me Appalchian music is my Folk. Because that is the music played by my ancestors. My family has a very rich and long history in folk music in this area. The more I traveled around the more I noticed how much the idea of folk music changed. I defines the people in the area your in. It tells thier story as a people and how they came to be. To me that is the magic of folk music. It is the music of people and history.

Severn I know your not putting me down I appreciate your response and I am enjoying reading all the posts.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 11:35 AM

I think there is a big difference between folk song and folk music. You can have non-folk songs be folk music, as Severn noted - and as Marilyn pointed out. IF you accept that the "folk club" scene in the UK is part of your folk heritage, a song like "Summertime" can be offered as folk music, even though it is not a folk song.

This is where the arguements begin, and I will say that I do understand and accept that not everyone will agree with my first paragraph.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 11:34 AM

I know some of the other "seasoned citizens" on this thread can relate to the following.

In the late 1950's, when I really began to be heavily involved in my local coffee house circuit, the argument was usually between the "ethnic" or "traditional" wing and the more progressive one, for which musicianship, stage presence and good arrangements were of great importance as well as the source music.

Some of the traditionalists (most of them from comfortable middle-class families) wore eastern european garb, affecting the neo-Bolshevik look, or dressed like seedy "street folk" or just sat in the corner, tuning their homemade dulcimers or playing chess and smoking gnarled briar pipes, affecting a sort of esoteric superiority. Sometimes, they would deign to teach us a song or two, which we joyfully accepted and often adapted to our own style.

Most of the rest of us, young and often apolitical, just wanted to play music and have our shot at performing on stage. What the hell, there were pretty girls there, and we were full of what ardent young folk are full of. We shared songs from The Weavers, Burl Ives, Bud and Travis and Bob Gibson or Terry Gilkyson to The Kingston Trio. We wanted to "sound good." If a traditional song worked for us, we used it. Many of the songs we favored were composed in the 20th century, not in the middle ages.

Of course, boundaries were crossed. The purists taught us some reverence for the origins of songs and the countries and traditions from which they came, though they were sometimes heavy-handed about it. Both camps got into the endless discussions about finding and tinkering with guitars and banjos, chords, strums and finger picking, etc.

In the end, I don't know that there was any resolution. Folk song is what any of us perceives it to be. There is no "snapshot in time" which forms boundaries for what constitutes folk music. I believe it is endlessly being created, composed and performed to this day, whether by trained musicians or creative amateurs speaking to their life experience through music.

Lou Gottlieb, of The Limeliters, was a musicologist with a PhD. He obviously had a reverence for the academic side, but it did not keep him from realizing that, if you want wider acceptance, it doesn't hurt to be well-rehearsed and to use good musicianship and stage presence. I wish he were still around. I would like to pose the question, "What is folk music?" to him.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Marilyn
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 11:31 AM

What you consider 'folk music' seems to be such a personal thing - it means something different to each person I think.

I'm English and, for me, the words 'folk music' mean folk music from the British Isles. Folk music from other cultures is, to me, World Music. Going further, again for me personally, folk music is Traditional British Music. This is obviously a VERY PERSONAL DEFINITION and I don't want to be attacked for it as I'm not trying to stuff it down anyone else's throat!

A folk club I go to has a very good regular who sings Gershwin's 'Summertime'. It's a gloriously lovely song but, for me, it definitely isn't folk music. Do I therefore object to her singing it? Well, no - but I still don't think it's 'folk' so I wouldn't sing it at a folk club.

As soon as I hear the words 'here's a song that I wrote ...' I have to confess that my heart sinks and, usually, I just endure the offering that follows and hope that the next person will play a Morris tune or sing a traditional song. There are exceptions (Virginia Barrett comes to mind as a young singer/songwriter of great talent who is always worth listening to).

So my own personal definition of folk music is quite specifically British Traditional. I don't insist that you agree with me - find or create your own definition (or accept the 1954 one if you like). The important thing, I think is this: please, don't try to tell others what they should like!!

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Severn
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 11:08 AM

There are songs that came up through the Folk Process and we can argue what that is, but as to "When does a non-Folk Song become at least temporarily a Folk Song?", the answer would be "When it's used in the manner a real folk song (whatever THAT is) would be used"

Using anything as a work song might give it the temporary right to sign on as a GUEST.


The same would be true of Lullabyes. When that infant just won't go to sleep and you've sung up all the traditional lullabies you know and you start singing just ANYTHING soft and slow ten THAT can be considered, at the moment, a true Folk Song, especially if it's the one that finally does the job! And I've heard several people use "I Can't Help Falling In Love With You" to sing babies to sleep. It actually was a French folk song to start out, but even with Elvis as the "source singer", it can be folk at times.

Remember, if an audience walks out before hearing the end of a song, the song may be bad, If a child falls asleep before hearing the end, it just might be a goodun.


So in this, or any day and age, context can be as important as the song itself.


And Jayto, I'm not putting you down by any stretch for starting this. In fact, we're always game and it's always seemingly in season.
You just tapped into a sacred Folk Ritual, is all.



.....Lizzie, you refer to Deep Purple as "they". So it's not yet still another nickname for Bruce Murdoch?

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 10:57 AM

Look then at the various blue links to other threads at the top of this page.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Jayto
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 10:55 AM

This topic may have been dicussed alot in the past as several of you have pointed out to me (remember I'm new I didn't know).There seems to be alot of people still biting at the bit to discuss it though. I am enjoying reading others take on it.

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: GUEST,guy Wolff On Lap top
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 10:15 AM

Sorry I hit the wrong button again . All these years on Mudcat and Im still hitting mac return and away goes my note .
       Folk music is of the people by the people and for the people . I do love the phrase Home made . The Japanese have a folk movement called Mingai meaning "The unknown Craftsmen" . We have a lot of known folk musicians of course but on the whole folk music s comes from the back porch and it's strength comes from that .. So why record or pay to hear people?? ::: because we love it done beautifully . I couldnt live without hearing Finest Kind or Bruce Malsky or Martin Carthy or or or or
            So one of folk music's most incongruent properties is that ware it comes from is not always where it ends up being found . Ha   
    All the best to all here . Guy

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Severn
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 10:15 AM

Hey! There was but two posts when I started typing and there were 14 by the time I posted. I know, I'm a slow typist, but it looks like the folks, if not The Folk, are rarin' to go again.

Stand Back!

We'll roll the rock up the hill THIS time!

Sys-a-fuss is back and boulder than ever!

Subject: RE: What do you consider Folk?
From: Severn
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 10:09 AM

Are you SURE you want to open up this can of worms once more so we can all go fishing in this hole again, baiting and de-baiting each other, and give all the appropriate angles from all the appropriate angler's stories (including those from out of ye olde angle-o-files) about the exact length and bredth of said slippery beast?

We can have Joe Offer post a long, long list of previous related attempts at the top to show you how much talk has already been expended through the years and how far we still have to go for the answer. Luckily, all this has been done here on computer, so that several forests have saved from the ravages that would be caused by those of us who care most about them and love to mourn about their demise in song, had we chosen to do this all on paper.

Why, WincingDevil of the FSGW has named it a topic of the next Folklore Society of Greater Washington themed Open Sing, so that many of the greatest minds here in the Nation's Capital (minds that President Bush SHOULD want to die for, but would have a better chance of politically dying FROM) will meet in song at this possibly historic forum,

(or against'em as the case might be)

Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?....


....and if WE solve the question, a paper might be presented at the Getaway. If not, it's just more fish stories of the "gotaway".


But, hey! You just might be the stimulus to finally nail this one for good! So leet's have one more go at it!



"TO DREAM THE IMPOSSIBLE....."

Wait! Wait!

THAT's the one we decided was was actually NOT a folksong!






Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

.....or DID we?