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The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout

Related threads:
The re-Imagined Village (946)
BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew (1193)
The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.) (1465) (closed)
The Weekly Walkabout (273) (closed)
Walkaboutsverse (989) (closed)


Gervase 11 Dec 08 - 02:42 AM
Paul Burke 11 Dec 08 - 03:12 AM
Sleepy Rosie 11 Dec 08 - 04:16 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 11 Dec 08 - 05:32 AM
Paul Burke 11 Dec 08 - 06:16 AM
Ruth Archer 11 Dec 08 - 06:35 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 11 Dec 08 - 06:35 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 11 Dec 08 - 06:38 AM
Ruth Archer 11 Dec 08 - 06:43 AM
Jack Blandiver 11 Dec 08 - 07:12 AM
Ruth Archer 11 Dec 08 - 07:20 AM
GUEST,Smokey 11 Dec 08 - 12:58 PM
Don Firth 11 Dec 08 - 01:59 PM
Don Firth 11 Dec 08 - 02:08 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 11 Dec 08 - 04:11 PM
Gervase 11 Dec 08 - 04:17 PM
GUEST,Smokey 11 Dec 08 - 04:51 PM
Sleepy Rosie 11 Dec 08 - 05:19 PM
Ruth Archer 11 Dec 08 - 05:38 PM
Don Firth 11 Dec 08 - 05:46 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 11 Dec 08 - 06:13 PM
GUEST,Smokey 11 Dec 08 - 06:25 PM
Ruth Archer 11 Dec 08 - 06:27 PM
GUEST,Smokey 11 Dec 08 - 06:30 PM
Don Firth 11 Dec 08 - 07:03 PM
Don Firth 11 Dec 08 - 07:37 PM
Don Firth 11 Dec 08 - 08:02 PM
GUEST,Smokey 11 Dec 08 - 10:06 PM
Don Firth 11 Dec 08 - 11:02 PM
catspaw49 11 Dec 08 - 11:20 PM
GUEST,Smokey 11 Dec 08 - 11:25 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Dec 08 - 03:01 AM
Paul Burke 12 Dec 08 - 03:10 AM
Ruth Archer 12 Dec 08 - 04:29 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Dec 08 - 06:52 AM
Jack Blandiver 12 Dec 08 - 07:06 AM
Jack Blandiver 12 Dec 08 - 07:26 AM
Stu 12 Dec 08 - 08:03 AM
Paul Burke 12 Dec 08 - 08:33 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Dec 08 - 09:20 AM
Paul Burke 12 Dec 08 - 09:32 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Dec 08 - 09:53 AM
Paul Burke 12 Dec 08 - 10:19 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 12 Dec 08 - 11:03 AM
Phil Edwards 12 Dec 08 - 11:06 AM
catspaw49 12 Dec 08 - 11:33 AM
Stu 12 Dec 08 - 11:37 AM
Sleepy Rosie 12 Dec 08 - 11:44 AM
Jack Blandiver 12 Dec 08 - 12:00 PM
Jack Blandiver 12 Dec 08 - 12:05 PM
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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Gervase
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 02:42 AM

Jesus can certainly be found in some strange places for them as want to find him.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:12 AM

From s&r's link: There is the additional problem of having neither a skeleton nor other bodily remains to probe for DNA. In the absence of evidence, our images of Jesus have been left to the imagination of artists.

Surely we can get a DNA sample from his Touring Shroud? I bet it turns out he was an all-American boy from Ohio.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 04:16 AM

Spleen Cringe - so glad you found my contribution to the discussion 'improving'.

"Feed me!" Well at the risk of prosylatising, you might like some of the profoundly inspiring religious art here.

>poster gets her coat...<


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:32 AM

Whether you believe in Jesus, or you don't, one thing's for sure, in my outlook at least, and that's that Jesus would be pretty sad at what's going on in this thread.

His teachings were about love.

I don't see much of it in here.

I see narrow outlooks, humiliation, bullying, lack of concern for other people, lack of understanding for how the world is changing, and needs to change, along with ridicule, and at times, hatred.


Tell me, would those of you who are ridiculing Christianity, also ridicule Islam or Judaism in the same way?

Would you talk about Mohammed, or Buddha, in the same way you talk of Jesus?

Whether you believe or not, you should respect the belief of others.

The Dalai Lama says that his religion is Kindness.

Perhaps THAT is one Religion that many in here should join, be they the starter of this thread, or those who have come in here to lambast him.

The Four Noble Truths

The Dalai Lama would not be doing what is being done in here. He would, I've no doubt, hold out his hands, take David to those who have to leave their lands, to those who have no choice, let him feel their pain, get him to help them start a new life, in a country that they feel they could love, almost as much as their homeland.

He knows what it's like to have no country anymore, but...in a way, losing his country to the Chinese has given him The World, and it has given The World, the Dalai Lama.

"My Religion Is Kindness"


Four words which speak a thousand thoughts.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:16 AM

I come not to bring peace, but a sword (Matthew 10:34)

Don't sound like love to me. And whatever, most Christianity since before 50AD has derived from Paul and conjuring tricks with bones, not the Sermon on the Mount.

Criticise Buddha and Mohammed? Yes. Buddha didn't mean to perhaps, but his teachings set in place a different sort of feudalism, in which vast monsateries sucked the peasants dry. Not a great deal better than being screwed by the aristocracy.

Mohammed is unforgivable in that he sought to force people's consciences- believe or die, or at least be a second- class citizen. But then almost every other religion has done the same at one time or another. Even Quakers.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:35 AM

Religion...yadda yadda. I'm an equal opportunity blasphemer.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:35 AM

None of us will ever know who said what, where, or when. All we have is books written by people at the time. People write many things in books.

As Mick said a while back, when people come to read these threads, what will *they* think of the words that some have posted. Yet, most of them would regard themselves as peaceful, loving people, who'd reject no man, or woman, of any colour or religion.

And yet.......


"Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone"


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:38 AM

If you have no respect for the feelings of others, then what the heck are you doing having a go at David for exactly the same thing?

It makes no sense, other than to those who persist in doing it, I guess.

I'll leave you all to draw your swords and wound, if that is what brings you pleasure.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:43 AM

Oh Lizzie. Get. Over. Yourself.

Do you not get bored with your own sanctimonious, self-righteous, shallow, airy-fairy, intellectually bereft proselytising? I know I bloody well do.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:12 AM

Jesus would be pretty sad at what's going on in this thread

Well, here's something to cheer him up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NPuNPy9GbY


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:20 AM

That's one of God's creatures, IB. You're going to hell now.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:58 PM

Whether you believe or not, you should respect the belief of others

It's possible to respect people without necessarily respecting their beliefs if they are prepared to let you.

Jesus would be pretty sad at what's going on in this thread

I've often wondered what he'd think about millions of scale models of him being tortured to death.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 01:59 PM

The problem with the idea that the image on the shroud of Turin is that of Jesus is that various tests have been performed on the shroud, and it was radiocarbon dated in 1988 by three independent teams of scientists whose results were published in Nature. Their findings were that the shroud was made during the Middle Ages, approximately 1300 years after Jesus lived.

Advocates of the idea that the shroud of Turin actually was Jesus' shroud squawked like a flock of angry ducks and they still carry on the argument, but science is science. . . .

The only "evidence" they have is that the image on the shroud resembles the Renaissance painting depictions of Jesus—and nobody, including the artists, knew--or knows--hat Jesus really looked like.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 02:08 PM

And Lizzie, with all due respect, rather than just knee-jerking, you might notice that a lot of people on this and other related threads have been attempting to offer good musical advice to David—in vain, unfortunately, because he simply rejects it. But most of the people are objecting to David's rather despotic political ideas.

If someone advocates bigotry in my presence, I speak out strongly and immediately. Not to do so can be construed as agreement.

This is not necessarily the hate-fest you seem to think it is. Perhaps you need to re-read some of the posts.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 04:11 PM

Yup, I guess you're right, some are free to be as bigoted as they choose, whilst verbally hanging, drawing and quartering their prey. Let them bash Christianity and ridicule Christ, to hell whether it offends anyone.

But if their prey dared to do the same about Islam and Mohammed, then he'd probably find that hanging, drawing and quartering was the *easy* option.

One rule for the hunters, another for the hunted.



There is bigotry on *both* sides here.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Gervase
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 04:17 PM

Tell me, would those of you who are ridiculing Christianity, also ridicule Islam or Judaism in the same way?
Er, yes. As an atheist, to me they're all fair game.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 04:51 PM

Where is the bashing and ridiculing of Christianity?
In the eye of the beholder, I suspect.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:19 PM

There are some excellent guidelines to living decently to be found within the writings of many religions, including the New Testament. And also some extremely beautiful and moving mystical writings too. Try the deeply spiritual writings of the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart for example. Unfortunately for him the Pope tried him as a heretic. Bummer. Jesus amongst others is of course a good example of a guy who made some pretty decent suggestions, much of it in line with Buddhist philosophy. Such a pity that the Church went on to completely ignore those dead simple guidelines in favour of centuries upon centuries of monstrous policies of hatred, torture, extortion and murder. May Christ forgive me, for not really liking some of the organisations that chose to lay claim to him as a figurehead, and the crimes they went on to claim to commit on his behalf. But then, I don't think Jesus had a lot of say in all this, after all I always had the idea he never even wanted to start a new religion at the time he was alive, let alone posthumously. Spiritual people can also have a sense of humour. And personally, my guess is that after all the unbelievable bullshit that's been perpetrated in his name, Jesus could no-doubt do with a bloody good laugh, just like the rest of us...


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:38 PM

I'll repeat:

"Do you not get bored with your own sanctimonious, self-righteous, shallow, airy-fairy, intellectually bereft proselytising? I know I bloody well do."

But raise you a "tedious" and a "pompous".


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:46 PM

Motes and beams, there, Lizzie.

For the things that have been done in His name, there is ample reason for the weeping of Jesus.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:13 PM

Yes, indeed there is reason to weep, Don. For God also, whomsoever your God may be. But some weeping is also caused not in the name of Jesus, but in the name of those trying to score points, come up with the cruellest put down or the most spiteful words. To be honest, it's like water off a duck's back to me, as I've had it hurled at me for so long, particularly by one poster in here, that it ceases to upset me, but I know what it's like when the situation becomes 'All Against One and One Against All' Those who choose to join the bullying pack, baying for blood, do so of their own free will.

These threads would stop if you all stopped, or haven't you worked that one out yet? But maybe neither side wants them to stop, because, as Mick said, just like in the playground, each side gets something out of the situation. I personally don't think anything good is coming out of either side, that's all.

But...it's still a free country, so you all carry on, for as someone so sweetly stated above, I am 'intellectually bereft'....and if that means that I am unlike some of those in these threads, then all I can do is get down on my knees and thank my God.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:25 PM

There seems to be a distinct whiff of burning martyr on the air this evening.

Participation is not compulsory.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:27 PM

Sorry - did someone say something?


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:30 PM

I can almost hear WaV laughing his socks off from here..


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:03 PM

Be of good cheer.

A heavy dose of Christian Indignation allows one to lash out angrily and vent a measure of pent-up free-floating animosity, while at the same time letting one enjoy the hubris of feeling self-righteous.

I've seen this manifest itself many times. To the habitual victim of this condition, it's kind of like a drug fix. . . .

But being a fairly regular church-attendee myself (a fairly liberal Lutheran church), I know that not all that many Christians are given to this kind of self-indulgence.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:37 PM

Lizzie, there are two persons whom I admire very much for the stands they took. They were undeniably Christians (both pastors), and when confronted by manifestations of tyranny and despotism, they spoke out against it with vigor and with considerable danger to themselves. It would seem that one person's firm stand against the promulgation of a philosophy of bigotry and oppression is someone else's "hanging, drawing, and quartering" of some poor hapless "prey."

The persons I refer to are Martin Neimuller and Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I find both of these men very admirable for the firm stand they took. It cost one of them his life. It cost the other eight years in a concentration camp. But they stood firm.

As a Christian, you should educate yourself about them. As my pastor said, "They were willing to embrace the cross to stand by their principles."

When one hears certain ideas being advocated, it is never too early to speak out.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 08:02 PM

Let me be clear about this, however:   David has the right to advocate whatever philosophy he chooses. But I, and anyone else who disagrees with him, has the right to present a refutation of his ideas.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 10:06 PM

I know what you mean about 'Christian Indignation' Don - I see it as a rather blatant sign of insecurity about one's beliefs, but to be fair I've seen the same thing from atheists too.. I'm an aleprechaunist by the way.

Thanks for the links, sound chaps, the pair of 'em. Often wondered who wrote that bit everybody(?) knows.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:02 PM

Well, actually, I'm an atoothfairyist as well. And I have serious doubts about the existence of Bill O'Reilly.

My concept of God? That would take a little explaining, but certainly not the cranky old man with a beard in the bed sheet living up on Arcturus 12 who keeps list to see who's naughty and nice, marks the fall of every sparrow, and hurls lightning bolts at sinners.

The reason I started going to the church I do is because the pastor and I can have some very good discussions. More often than not, I play "Devil's Advocate," and he seems to enjoy the conversations. Believe me, I ain't no evangelist!

As to knowing the mind of God? If there is such an entity, He, She, or It is so far beyond our comprehension that there is no way we can "know the mind of God." In some circle's I'm notorious for telling evangelical and fundamentalist types, "Your God is too small!"

These folks have to have everything cut-and-dried. They can't stand mystery, and that's what religion is all about.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:20 PM

Not to be too Carl Saganish here, but considering the billions of stars in this galaxy and the billions of galaxies and the distances between them and all that, how the hell can anyone have ANY concept of god?

Faith you can have if you desire and indeed is necessary for any religion but a concept and knowledge of some god? Gimmee a break here..........

Yet this is where the true agnostic and the atheist may well disagree. I have no more proof that it is impossible to have a god than proof it is possible. Either stance must rely on and be supported by faith.

I ain't got none...........

Whatever your religion or belief I hope it makes you feel good and brings joy or at least adds to the meaning of your life. That's the role of religion it seems to me. My small request is that none of it be inflicted upon Ol' Spaw...............

Thanks in advance,


Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:25 PM

An atoothfairyist? Come on Don, you'll be telling me Santa doesn't exist next. Wicked heretic. I suppose you get your kicks out of persecuting poor young toothfairyists - does it give you a smug warm glow of superiority to see their tearful little faces whimpering with disappointment? I'm surprised you can sleep at nights. Monster.

On the other hand, there is no conclusive evidence for the existence of leprechauns. And they're not English.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 03:01 AM

I don't have 'religion' Don, never have had. I have faith, but one that belongs to only me, not to any category. I simply don't like the ganging up that goes on in these threads, that's all, nor the hypocrisy I see, in that some people feel they have the right to say whatever they want, and yet have the view that others don't. You can argue a point without becoming vicious. This is *not* directed at you personally, but generally, to those who've perhaps got a little carrried away in the past, that's all.

The reason I picked up on the Christianity bit was to make a point. That point being that for some strange reason Christianity has become the *one* religion that so many feel they can kick, insult and make fun of, yet if the very people *they* are belittling dared to behave in the same way about *other* religions, all 'racist' hell would, I have no doubt, break loose.

*That* was the point.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 03:10 AM

Bollocks Lizzie. As I pointed out, all religions I've been able to think of so far have similar flaws- their morality only applies when they haven't got the power to dominate. Christianity just happens to be the one that's trying to dominate the USA, and therefore impinges most on the world. And "honest simple believers" play the role of the "useful idiots" who really believed in Soviet communism.

Smokey- you're treading on dangerous ground. Not believing in leprechauns? I was banjaxed by them once, I only saved myself by turning my coat inside out and reciting five Hail Marys, an Our Father and a Glory Be.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 04:29 AM

"That point being that for some strange reason Christianity has become the *one* religion that so many feel they can kick, insult and make fun of, yet if the very people *they* are belittling dared to behave in the same way about *other* religions, all 'racist' hell would, I have no doubt, break loose."

Oooh, I feel another Daily Mail headline coming on...


"Whatever your religion or belief I hope it makes you feel good and brings joy or at least adds to the meaning of your life. That's the role of religion it seems to me. My small request is that none of it be inflicted upon Ol' Spaw..............."

Loving your work there, Spaw. I'd add "that none of it be inflicted on my child, especially while she is being educated at a state-funded school," but in the UK that's a bit of a conceptual leap.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 06:52 AM

"Bollocks Lizzie."

How eloquently put, Paul.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 07:06 AM

but considering the billions of stars in this galaxy and the billions of galaxies and the distances between them and all that, how the hell can anyone have ANY concept of god?

Too right - and yet scientists still speak of the overarching laws of physical nature, none of which make any sort of sense to my non-mathematical brain. To what extent is science the new religion anyway? It seems to operate on similar levels of faith and dogmatic certainty and occult mystery that might justify the billions spent on the Large Hadron Collider which I imagine future generations puzzling over much as we might puzzle over Stonehenge.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 07:26 AM

PS - When I was a kid I used to work myself up into knots with various paradoxes, the most persistent of which was do with why things work. For example, if televisions, remedies, steam engines, trumpets, and loudspeakers (for example) aren't found in nature (and are therefore unnatural) - why do they work? Then I thought that because such potentiality existed as part of the natural scheme, then that fact alone betokened the existence of some benign creative force who had inbuilt such wonders, albeit hidden away, much as we hid Easter Eggs from the little ones, so we might delight in the look of joy upon their faces when they discover them. Then I thought that it's all a myth anyway, given that the only absolute is the anthropocentricity which will forever forbid us from attaining a position of True Objectivity, no matter what...

These days I might use this as an argument against homophobes who justify their irrational hostility by maintaining that homosexuality somehow isn't natural and therefore represents a perversion of some Holy Law of Naturalness, God-given of course. I think it was Huysmans who wrote God might well have created Man, but Man, Sir - Man invented the steam engine!

I'm just off to open today's door on the advent calendar...


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 08:03 AM

"It seems to operate on similar levels of faith and dogmatic certainty and occult mystery"

Not really. Scientists are taught to question everything, even their own findings and never take anything for granted. They are of course subject to the very human failing of occasionally being wrong, opinionated or political but the who isn't? The reason scientists are so dismissive of religion generally is that it doesn't question all (Buddhism being an exception but relies on blind faith and ignorance).

I do believe that humans are spiritual creatures however and I once read something that for me summed it all up (I posted this here back in 2006):

We know the universe thinks because we think. Our very being is made from the raw materials the rest of the cosmos is made from - the same molecules and elements that make stars, comets, planets and galaxies. If at the most basic level we are simply the result of self-replicating molecular chains coalesing together to form complex biological machines, if our thoughts and emotions are simple a series of electrical impulses firing neurons and jumping synapses, we can think, see and feel.

We and life on our planet are the universe made conscious - and we can contemplate ourselves and our environment. This thought in itself is quite awesome in the truest sense of the word (as opposed to Bill and Ted's sense). It doesn't require a divine being to create us, it provides a far more sound basis for a moral and ethical framework than any religion which by it's very nature is trying to forward it's own agenda. It respects the sanctity of all life whilst acknowledging the role of science and the arts in our development.

This whole idea is based on what many would call cold, hard science, but the spiritual dimension to the concept is evident, and far more powerful that anything you could be told to believe by an priest or vicar or imam or rabbi - it is self-revelation in it's purest form. It provides a context for everything that has occured since mankind first contemplated the moon and sun and wondered what it all meant. This concept provides a context to our place in the great scheme of things that religion struggles to provide but strangely enough, sounds very religious in it's own right.
*


* I can't take credit for this idea, as I originally read it in a Carl Sagan book.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 08:33 AM

Good quote Stig. Note though that "spiritual" is very much a weasel word- it can easily change meaning in mid- argument, or even in mid- sentence. Being "spiritual" isn't the same thing as claiming that the "spirit" is somehow a separate entity from the body. The soul as a process working within the mind is worth thinking about. Like the religious soul, it has no weight, it isn't made of anything (it's really just movement), yet it contains all we are as humans. The main difference is it doesn't continue after death (ion movements and neurotransmitters need a living brain), and it can't be saved or punished except when the body is alive. There- that's one "is" that implies an "ought"!


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:20 AM

"...The soul as a process working within the mind is worth thinking about. Like the religious soul, it has no weight, it isn't made of anything (it's really just movement), yet it contains all we are as humans. The main difference is it doesn't continue after death (ion movements and neurotransmitters need a living brain),...."

Really, and you know this, for certain, that the soul does not continue after death?

How do you know?

Evidence, if possible, please.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:32 AM

Evidence?

- that the soul can be damaged by simple chemicals, like ethanol, and that the removal of those chemicals sometimes allows the soul to recover its previous characteristics.
- that people whose brain has been damaged mechanically can also have aspects of their intellectual ability damaged, and their behaviour sometimes completely modified.
- that electrical and mechanical impulses can induce feelings, including religious "visions".
- that no one has ever produced evidence of contact between extracorporeal spirits and humans, though many have tried and many have pretended to do so. If you can, or know someone who can, there's a million dollar reward waiting for you.

No doubt someone will say, ah but, it's the brain that gets damaged, not the soul. OK, show me a characteristic of the soul which can't be explained as a function of the brain. And living-after-death won't do, unless you can show it. And OOBEs won't do, because they can be induced in the lab. We are all to willing to be fooled at times.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:53 AM

The whole point of faith, Paul, is that *nothing* can be proved in the science lab.

You cannot prove there is life after death, True.

You also cannot prove that there is not. Also true.

Science does not hold all the answers, and it never will, ever, no matter how much money is poured into it, or intelligence, or knowledge. There is, quite simply, some knowledge that is beyond even our reach, as humans. There are things we are never supposed to know about. It's driven those with scientific minds crazy for centuries, because the **need** to know ALL the answers is the most important thing in the world to them.

But sometimes, the answer is....that there are *no* answers.

Faith is learning to accept the unacceptable, and knowing that sometimes, we are not *supposed* to know. Once you get your head around that, you're almost there...And once you let go of science, and learn to *listen* to what your soul tells you, you're there completely.

Faith does not live in the Laboratory.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 10:19 AM

. There are things we are never supposed to know about.

Who does the supposing?


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:03 AM

Lizzie. What is this soul of which you speak?
I wasn't here until 1954.....I am here now(for a bit), And then I wont be here. Whenever that will be.
What's a soul got to do with that?
When I'm gone, I'm gone...Thats it.
There is no afterlife. Deal with it!
If there is a God, Why does he/she/it allow wars?


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:06 AM

The reason scientists are so dismissive of religion generally is that it doesn't question all

Yes. I have periodic arguments with my son, who's 13 and (in his words) a theist. He thought the Big Bang was his trump card (something must have caused it) - but, as I pointed out, scientists are quite happy to say that something caused it and we don't know what. To say we don't know what caused this, so it must have been God... well, to me it just takes all the wonder out of life. Something started it all, and we don't know what - isn't that amazing?


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:33 AM

The essential element of the happy agnostic is the wonderment of NOT knowing and being satisfied if that is forever the case. Should a definite proof source for "no god" show up or if he one day popped up out of the pea patch, that would be just fine. But if neither happens its okay with me. Many theists and atheists alike seem determined that my happiness can only be complete by whichever they support. Reality is sorta' like the Gordon Liddy story........

Remember Gordon Liddy? One of Nixon's minions of Watergate fame? Liddy did this thing to prove his machismo to those he would employ by holding his hand over a candle flame until the flesh burned and charred. Someone once asked him what the trick was. Liddy replied, "The trick is not minding."

I don't "KNOW." I don't mind.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:37 AM

"But sometimes, the answer is....that there are *no* answers."

Ignorance is bliss.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:44 AM

Just had random echoes between 'myth' and 'mirth', resounding through my head. Bluddy 'ell, only Trickster Gods know why...


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:00 PM

I wasn't here until 1954

An auspicious year for a folkie to be born, Ralphie. I myself didn't get here until August 1961, only a month or so before Chico Marx departed, but it's nice that our paths crossed however so briefly in this realm of shadows. Before her stroke, my mother let slip that she once saw Chico at the Sunderland Empire, though not, of course, during November 1960 - what I wouldn't give to be the bastard son of Chico Marx.

Twice in my life Don Cherry smiled at me; I've also smoked cigarettes with Marshall Allen; when I was 15 I received a letter from Daevid Allen; when I was 5 I shook hands with Jimmy Clitheroe; during his reading at the Durham Literature Festival a few years back Vic Reeves used one of our Handy Andys to stuff up his mouth to do the voice of Inspector Fowler, The American Eagle. For those of us without religion, such bessings are worth counting.


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Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:05 PM

200


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