BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:16 PM

April 5, 2009

(CBS) Much of the attention on Iran over the last few years has focused on its mysterious nuclear program. Another mystery that has received far less attention is torture in Iran's prisons.

It's a story the Iranian government doesn't want you to hear; a story a man risked his life to tell. His name is Ahmad Batebi, and quite by accident he became one of the most famous dissidents in Iran.

He says he endured years of torture in an Iranian prison, after his picture appeared on the cover of The Economist magazine. He escaped from Iran last year, and told CNN's Anderson Cooper how he did it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:14 PM

June 6, 2004

Claims that reforms in Iran have put an end to torture are simply false. More than ever, journalists, intellectuals and activists are afraid to voice opinions critical of the government.

Sarah Leah Whitson, Executive Director of Human Rights Watch's Middle East and North Africa Division

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:09 PM

I think it is also obvious that those who support the government of Israel overlook the forest for the trees. For instance, we have, above, someone who thinks that only a direct quote from the prime minister of Israel can suffice to show what Israel's actual agenda is, rather than looking at the large body of quotes from many members of the Israeli government over the course of Israel's history, and also Israel's actual track record of what it and the individual members of its government have done. It's true, this is a tactic, and those who support the government of Israel are masters at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:05 PM

I didn't blame Jews for the absence of Jews in Arab countries. An Arab Jew, however, has laid the blame, not on "the Jews", but on those Jews who formed the Zionist movement during the formation of the state of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:03 PM

I have been accused of cherry picking my quotes. I would suggest that this is precisely what those who are arguing the other side are doing. For instance, they are completely ignoring anything members of the Iranian government are saying that doesn't support their view of Iran and their desire to wage war against that country.


I never said they have freedom in Iran. I said they have free and open elections, and I said that the people in Iran want to sort out their problems themselves without the interference of Western governments. I think they have more of a right to decide that than Iranians living in other countries, since the ones living in other countries don't have to live with the consequences of that interference. The ones still in Iran do have to live with those consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:55 PM

We are discussing Iran (a Persian country), not Arab countries. In Iran, as was observed above, candidates must be approved by a council that represents the revolutionary regime. In Israel no party can stand for election that hasn't been approved by the government. For instance, a candidate belonging to a party that calls Palestinian right of return is not allowed to stand for office.

There is no meaningful difference between these two things.


The Hamas charter doesn't recognize Israel. Hamas has said that they don't recognize Israel because Israel will not declare its borders. I think that's perfectly reasonable. However, Hamas has also said that they will not try to stop a two-state resolution to the problem if the Palestinians vote for that in a referendum.

The government of Israel has never recognized a Palestinian state, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:55 PM

Lady who cut my hair a few days back was kind enough to tell me about herself. I asked where she was from. She said, "Persia." She follows the Baha'i belief. Said that it was brutal in her home country for people who were not Muslim. So much for freedom in Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:52 PM

Carol, it is quite definite that there are all sorts of quotes that can be found and excised and held up for comment. You are cherry-picking your quotes, your situations, and overlooking the forest for the trees. And this is a tactic. A rather obvious one that loses traction with overuse, as you are clearly doing with your self-successive posts.

What is obvious about the Israeli forest is that it contains many Arab trees. What is obvious about the Arab forest is that it contains NO Jewish trees. And you are trying to blame the JEWS for this!

BTW, The Iranian forest has a dungeon in it with a freshly imprisoned Iranian-American journalist sequestered there on trumped-up charges. Ahmedinajad wrote a letter suggesting that when she appeal she be allowed to defend herself (!!!!!!!!!!!)

As for the Iranian Guardian council they approve only those candidates that they approve. This assures them of an unopposed domination of the Iranian people. I suspect the Iranian people do not like that and would be aghast at your portrayal of their 'free elections'. (FREE? You get arrested for NOT voting?)

The operating rule of HELL is that which is not prohibited is mandatory !

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:44 PM

Wait up!! When you lot have stopped dancing on the head of a pin square away what the President of Iran said with the declared aim of Hamas as written in their Charter clearly states. Hamas is backed by Iran YES or NO.

By the bye CarolC can you tell me how many Jewish members of any legislatitive council ther are in the the 22 Arab countries in the world. I know for certain that there are freely elected Arab members of the Israeli Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:37 PM

Their disagreement is whether the term "wipe" (away or off) is used as opposed to "vanish". There is no dispute about the fact that what is predicted to be wiped or to vanish is not Israel, or Jews, but the political "regime in Jerusalem", which are entirely different things.

And there is no dispute from the Iranian translators about Ahmadinejad's meaning - that he is predicting that it will happen, rather than threatening to make it happen.

It is quite obvious to anyone who isn't trying to spread lies about Iran for the purpose of drumming up support for an attack on that country, that Ahmadinejad is saying that the "regime" (government) of Israel is going to cease to exist at some point in the future, without any help from Iran, and that he, Ahmadinejad, sees that as a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:15 PM

"despite never having uttered the words "map." "wipe out" or even "Israel."

It seems that translators who work for the president's office and the foreign ministry disagree with that.

"All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad's statement, including a description of it on his website, refer to wiping Israel away. Sohrab Mahdavi, one of Iran’s most prominent translators, and Siamak Namazi, managing director of a Tehran consulting firm, who is bilingual, both say “wipe off” or “wipe away” is more accurate than "vanish" because the Persian verb is active and transitive."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:05 PM

Direct translation here. The only semantic ledgerdemain is coming from those who are trying to twist his words to mean something that they clearly do not...


http://www.antiwar.com/orig/norouzi.php?articleid=11025

Across the world, a dangerous rumor has spread that could have catastrophic implications. According to legend, Iran's president has threatened to destroy Israel, or, to quote the misquote, "Israel must be wiped off the map." Contrary to popular belief, this statement was never made.

On Tuesday, October 25th, 2005 at the Ministry of Interior conference hall in Tehran, newly elected Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad delivered a speech at a program, reportedly attended by thousands, titled "The World Without Zionism." Large posters surrounding him displayed this title prominently in English, obviously for the benefit of the international press. Below the poster's title was a slick graphic depicting an hour glass containing planet Earth at its top. Two small round orbs representing the United States and Israel are shown falling through the hour glass' narrow neck and crashing to the bottom.

Before we get to the infamous remark, it's important to note that the "quote" in question was itself a quote – they are the words of the late Ayatollah Khomenei, the father of the Islamic Revolution. Although he quoted Khomeini to affirm his own position on Zionism, the actual words belong to Khomeini and not Ahmadinejad. Thus, Ahmadinejad has essentially been credited (or blamed) for a quote that is not only unoriginal, but represents a viewpoint already in place well before he ever took office.

The Actual Quote:

So what did Ahmadinejad actually say? To quote his exact words in Farsi:

"Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad."

That passage will mean nothing to most people, but one word might ring a bell: rezhim-e. It is the word "regime." pronounced just like the English word with an extra "eh" sound at the end. Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime. This is a vastly significant distinction, as one cannot wipe a regime off the map. Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase "rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods" (regime occupying Jerusalem).

So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want "wiped from the map"? The answer is: nothing. That's because the word "map" was never used. The Persian word for map, "nagsheh" is not contained anywhere in his original Farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase "wipe out" ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran's president threatened to "wipe Israel off the map." despite never having uttered the words "map." "wipe out" or even "Israel."

The Proof:

The full quote translated directly to English:

"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."

Word by word translation:

Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).

Here is the full transcript of the speech in Farsi, archived on Ahmadinejad's web site

The Speech and Context:

While the false "wiped off the map" extract has been repeated infinitely without verification, Ahmadinejad's actual speech itself has been almost entirely ignored. Given the importance placed on the "map" comment, it would be sensible to present his words in their full context to get a fuller understanding of his position. In fact, by looking at the entire speech, there is a clear, logical trajectory leading up to his call for a "world without Zionism." One may disagree with his reasoning, but critical appraisals are infeasible without first knowing what that reasoning is.

In his speech, Ahmadinejad declares that Zionism is the West's apparatus of political oppression against Muslims. He says the "Zionist regime" was imposed on the Islamic world as a strategic bridgehead to ensure domination of the region and its assets. Palestine, he insists, is the frontline of the Islamic world's struggle with American hegemony, and its fate will have repercussions for the entire Middle East.

Ahmadinejad acknowledges that the removal of America's powerful grip on the region via the Zionists may seem unimaginable to some, but reminds the audience that, as Khomeini predicted, other seemingly invincible empires have disappeared and now only exist in history books. He then proceeds to list three such regimes that have collapsed, crumbled or vanished, all within the last 30 years:

(1) The Shah of Iran – the U.S. installed monarch

(2) The Soviet Union

(3) Iran's former arch-enemy, Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein

In the first and third examples, Ahmadinejad prefaces their mention with Khomeini's own words foretelling that individual regime's demise. He concludes by referring to Khomeini's unfulfilled wish: "The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time. This statement is very wise." This is the passage that has been isolated, twisted and distorted so famously. By measure of comparison, Ahmadinejad would seem to be calling for regime change, not war.


Also relevant is this quote from Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei...

"We have no problem with the world. We are not a threat whatsoever to the world, and the world knows it. We will never start a war. We have no intention of going to war with any state."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 11:48 AM

Commentary on this semantic legerdemain is available here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel.

In essence the subtleties of meaning vary with translation, a clever way of threatening by insinuation just as some posters who implicate by insinuation then challenge those who challenge them to show where they said that which is being challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 11:06 AM

By the way, there are no quotes anywhere (not accurate translations, anyway) of the president of Iran stating that Israel should be wiped off the map. This is because he never said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 11:04 AM

If, in a democracy, anyone who wishes to stand for election is free to do so, then Israel is not a democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 06:24 AM

Terribus,
The soldiers' statements included at length observations on how they regarded and were trained to regard Palastinians - "Less than animals" as one so eloquently put it, pretty much the same as the Nazis were trained to regard the Jews.
Their statements also included their own behaviour towards the Gazans - perhaps they were somewhere else while they were shooting civilians (not forgetting, shitting in their cooking utensils).
Of course - it's all a leftie plot anyway!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 04:54 AM

Michaelr requested that someone address his post of - 24 Apr 09 - 06:53 PM

1.        "Human lives are of equal value" appears to be the consensus. Given that, does it not then follow that these human lives should be treated and protected equally? The government of Israel and the Western powers are clearly not dealing equitably with the Palestinian people. Ahmedinejad is correct in pointing this out."

Agreed human lives should be treated and protected equally. Can you now tell us michaelr how Hamas Charter squares with that concept? You didn't mention it in your post but I am sure it was foremost in your mind when you wrote your condemnation of the Government of Israel and the Western Powers. Can you provide us with a quote from the Hamas Charter whereby Israelis Arab or Jew will be treated and protected equally? Tell me does the United Nations recognize the Palestinian Authority or Hamas? They cannot recognize Hamas under the terms of their Charter as long as Hamas calls for the destruction of a recognized member state (Israel) so it is not just a matter of the Western Powers is it michaelr, even although it is from the EU that the Palestinians receive the lions share of their international aid.

2.        "The origins of the state of Israel are another case in point. It should be remembered that anti-semitism was not invented by Nazi Germany, but had been a paradigm throughout Europe for centuries. Britain and the other WWII victors involved decided cynically that "we'll dump the Jews (who we don't want) on the Arabs (who we don't care about)". This was clearly racist, and Ahmedinejad is correct in pointing it out. Whatever you think of the man, it is intellectually dishonest to demonize him in the way I've seen here."

Much of what you state above is irrelevant twaddle. The bare facts of the matter with regard to the origins of the State of Israel (May 1948) are that the UN proposed a Plan involving a two-state solution in 1947 as the old League of Nations Mandate for Palestine was ending. The Jews of Palestine accepted that proposal; the Arabs of Palestine rejected it. Had they accepted as their Jewish neighbours did there would have been no displaced persons Jew or Arab, therefore no "Right of Return" question to resolve. The Palestinian Arabs would have in terms of territory far more than they say they are willing to settle for now.

I particularly liked your "Britain and the other WWII victors involved decided cynically that "we'll dump the Jews (who we don't want) on the Arabs (who we don't care about)". Perhaps you could give us figures for the great Jewish exodus from the United Kingdom post 1945 michaelr? Quite the contrary to what you suggest, it was the express desire of European Jews themselves that they migrate to the newly formed Israel after the Second World War, understandable considering their treatment at the hands of the Germans and lack of protection afforded them by what they, at the time, saw as being their native Governments and fellow countrymen. As to the British not caring about "the Arabs", we didn't care enough about them to the degree that within five years of the start of the Palestine Mandate Britain had handed over 77% of it to "the Arabs" for their exclusive settlement which by 1926 they ruled as an autonomous state within the mandate. Of the remaining 23% of the Mandate this was open to settlement by all.

Therefore michaelr if Ahmedinejad based his remarks on what you have laid out, then the man is clearly a racist and deserves all the approbation heaped upon him and the regime that he represents. We are of course talking of the regime that backs Hezbollah and Hamas both terrorist organizations who for years have been guilty of maintaining the Palestinian people in poverty and despair despite the millions upon millions that have been donated in aid to ease their suffering.

3.        "I don't support Hamas. I support the right of the Palestinian people to peace and self-determination.

Very commendable of you not to support Hamas michaelr, neither do I, and while I likewise support the right of the Palestinian people to peace and self-determination I also support the right of the people of Israel to peace and self-determination. Interesting to see that you apparently do not, as they don't merit a mention in your post.


CarolC, 24 Apr 09 - 09:33 PM.

"On the subject of Iranian elections... since the Guardian Council do approve moderate candidates, the people in Iran do have a choice between moderates and right-wingers."

If memory serves me correctly CarolC in a democracy anyone wishing to stand for political office is free to do so. They do not have to present themselves for a selection process in front of a committee of 12 non-elected people who adjudicate as to the "suitability" of candidates. Your words quoted above are "weasely" in the extreme and you damn well know it, were the same system enforced in the USA you'd be up in arms about it.

"The government of Israel does not want Iran to correct its problems - what they want is for Iran to be destroyed as a viable entity just as was done to Iraq."

Now then CarolC I have sources for quotes from the Iranian President stating that Israel should be wiped off the map – can you please provide any source where the Israeli Prime Minister or president has made similar statements about Iran?

Jim Carroll, 25 Apr 09 - 02:40 AM

"It's hard not to notice that Israel has just found itself not guilty of targeting Palestinian civilians during it's recent 'adventure' in Gaza, despite Israeli soldiers' statements to the contrary - now there's a surprise!!!"

Bit like the "Indian rope trick" Jim, everybody can tell you what it is and swears that it exists but no-one has ever actually seen it done. The "Israeli soldier's statements" you seem to put such faith in were all thoroughly investigated and guess what Jim? None of them actually saw what they stated, they had heard it from somebody who knew somebody who had seen it, and hear-say is no evidence at all – is it??

By the bye Jim had those Israeli soldiers said that such incidents definitely had not happened would you have accepted it?? Something tells me that you would not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 02:40 AM

It's hard not to notice that Israel has just found itself not guilty of targeting Palestinian civilians during it's recent 'adventure' in Gaza, despite Israeli soldiers' statements to the contrary - now there's a surprise!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:16 AM

Here's another interesting quote from the Palestine Remembered site...


A month after the Nazi pogrom against Germany's Jews, famously known as Kristallnacht, Ben-Gurion provided an interesting mathematical formula for saving German Jewish kids. He stated in December 1938:

    "If I knew it was possible to save all [Jewish] children of Germany by their transfer to England and only half of them by transferring them to Eretz-Yisrael, I would choose the latter----because we are faced not only with the accounting of these [Jewish] children but also with the historical accounting of the Jewish People." (Righteous Victims, p. 162)

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story696.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:38 AM

Heh. I figured that I had already answered that question in any number of posts of mine right here in this thread.

Of course they should all be treated and protected equally.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:22 AM

I wouldn't hold my breath on getting that question answered.
Not even by you, Carol? You're breaking my heart now.

I'm on your side, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:21 AM

"Not unexpectedly, nobody answered "yes", because in doing so they would have branded themselves racists."

That is solipsist bs. Michael. I answered your question, but I'm maybe too old to get sucked into Socrates and his 'answer my question in the way I want you to answer it' crap. Nice try but no banana.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:05 AM

Here's an interesting quote from that Palestine Remembered site...


During the course of the 1948 war, reports of WAR CRIMES perpetrated by the Israeli soldiers reached the Israeli Cabinet. Such atrocities shocked Aharon Cizling, and during a Cabinet meeting he said:

    "I've received a letter on the subject. I must say that I have known what things have been like for some time and I have raised the issue several times already here. However after reading this letter I couldn't sleep last night. I felt the things that were going on were hurting my soul, the soul of my family and all of us here. I could not imagine where we came from and to where are we going. . . . I often disagree when the term Nazi was applied to the British. I wouldn't like to use the term, even though the British committed Nazi crimes. But now Jews too have behaved like Nazis and my entire being has been shaken. . . . Obviously we have to conceal these actions from the public, and I agree that we should not even reveal that we're investigating them. But they must be investigated. . . ." (1949, The First Israelis, p. 26)

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story697.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 11:57 PM

LOL!!!!

That is a letter from the Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations (an employee of the government of Israel) that he or she addressed to the Secretary General.

There can be no more biased source than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 11:48 PM

"Global Security dot Org is not a legitimate news outlet."
Well, maybe they are untrustworthy rat bastards, so how about this source with the 'complete transcript' of Rafsanjani's speech. By the way, I'm not enthralled with citing them, but I believe you've used them a time or two over the years.


http://www.wwan.cn/documents/ga/docs/56/a56790.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 11:25 PM

I wouldn't hold my breath on getting that question answered.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 11:23 PM

Just as I thought. Some people are willing to accept information that comes from websites with a political axe to grind that coincides with their own particular political axe, but if someone else posts something from a website with a political axe they don't happen to like, they refuse to accept it.

What's good for the goose, as they say...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 10:45 PM

Anyone care to address my post?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 10:38 PM

"the reality of the quotes contained in this website...

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story637.html "


"the only sites that come up are ones with a political axe to grind. Not a single legitimate news outlet comes up."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 10:34 PM

However. Having said all of that, I will consider accepting that speech as legitimate if the people who are trying to convince me it is will accept the reality of the quotes contained in this website...

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story637.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 09:33 PM

Not only does it not fit my point of view, it doesn't seem to fit the point of view of anyone other than a small group of people with a rather large political agenda.


On the subject of Iranian elections... since the Guardian Council do approve moderate candidates, the people in Iran do have a choice between moderates and right-wingers.

The people of Iran want Western countries to leave them alone and let them correct the problems in that country themselves. They don't want our interference. They have said this many times. They have said that they can take care of what needs to be done, but not if the US and other Western countries (and Israel) keep interfering. They have said many times that when other countries interfere, that strengthens the hard-liners in Iran rather than weakening them. This is, of course, exactly what the government of Israel wants, because the government of Israel uses the presence of right-wingers in power in Iran as an justification for attacking that country.

The government of Israel does not want Iran to correct its problems - what they want is for Iran to be destroyed as a viable entity just as was done to Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 08:43 PM

CarolC writted:
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 09:22 PM

"Also, Iran's elections are free and open, and moderates do get elected. It is not a particularly controversial thing to say that"

Iranian elections are subject to nominees not getting certified due to a clique of religious officials who are not elected.
"All candidates have to be approved by the Guardian Council."

Not unlike Soviet Elections where the ruling clique determined who could be- well, the ruling clique.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 08:08 PM

"I am disinclined to believe that it is legitimate."

Of course you are...it doesn't fit your point of view.



"Little wheels spin and spin...", B. Sainte-Marie

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 06:53 PM

In support of CarolC, I asked a simple question.

Q: Is the life of an Israeli civilian worth more than that of a Palestinian civilian?

Not unexpectedly, nobody answered "yes", because in doing so they would have branded themselves racists.

"Human lives are of equal value" appears to be the consensus. Given that, does it not then follow that these human lives should be treated and protected equally? The government of Israel and the Western powers are clearly not dealing equitably with the Palestinian people. Ahmedinejad is correct in pointing this out.

The origins of the state of Israel are another case in point. It should be remembered that anti-semitism was not invented by Nazi Germany, but had been a paradigm throughout Europe for centuries. Britain and the other WWII victors involved decided cynically that "we'll dump the Jews (who we don't want) on the Arabs (who we don't care about)". This was clearly racist, and Ahmedinejad is correct in pointing it out. Whatever you think of the man, it is intellectually dishonest to demonize him in the way I've seen here.

I don't support Hamas. I support the right of the Palestinian people to peace and self-determination.

Peace is not only the absence of war, but the presence of justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 05:02 PM

Hell, even the major news outlets, which have a very clear bias in favor of anything the government of Israel wants, aren't putting their names on that one. That tells me a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 05:01 PM

They could be passing it along from the people who did make it up. It's not like such things haven't happened many, many times in the history of the hasbara narrative. People with an interest in preventing the emergence of or eliminating the existence of any major powers in the Middle East besides Israel have been making up stuff like this for a very long time. Unless I see that speech from a source that doesn't have an obvious axe to grind on this subject, I am disinclined to believe that it is legitimate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 04:00 PM

"Global Security dot Org is not a legitimate news outlet."

From which one is, I suppose, to infer they are making-up the whole translation of the speech? Are they more suspect in culling information than, say, CarolC, if someone desired to use her as a cite from a paste here at Mudcat? Are they less of a news outlet than, perhaps, the Huffington Post or Little green Footballs?

They sourced the the material--who gave the speech, when, why, and the origin of the translation--and they indicated the additions of sub-headings not in the original speech. I would think that is pretty open and aboveboard. And perhaps worth a read.

"Little wheels spin and spin...", B. Sainte-Marie

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 03:21 PM

Global Security dot Org is not a legitimate news outlet.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 03:18 PM

None so blind indeed. The Jews of Iran don't share the thirst for Iranian blood of the commentators in the above posts...


An American rabbi reports on her visits to the 'oldest ongoing Jewish community in the world:' Iran

Roger Cohen's recent editorial in the New York Times about Iranian Jews continues to reverberate. Below is a reflection by Rabbi Lynn Gottlieb (pictured below). Rabbi Gottlieb led a delegation to Iran last April and visited again in December. A Middle East Program Associate with the American Friends Service Committee in San Francisco, she will be visiting Iran again this August.

Rabbi-Lynn-Gottlieb Reading Roger Cohen's piece in the NY Times confirmed my own experience in Iran. I have had the pleasure of meeting the ancient community of Jews from Esfahan, Shiraz and Teheran on two separate occasions. I attended services in each of the cities, met with the official representatives of the community twice in Shiraz and Teheran and had several private conversations in hotel lobbies and private homes for hours on end, with youth and elders. I was also surprised at the depth of study of Jewish sources by Muslim scholars at Mofid University who quoted Maimonides, Rashi and Torah with ease and were anxious to learn more. As in any culture there is a diversity of attitudes. The condition of Jews is really no different than the condition of others who are in the 'reformist' camp. There is a need for interfaith civilian diplomacy so that those relationships can be explored and nurtured.

The Jewish community of Iran has been present in their society for nearly 3000 years. They object to the attitude by non Iranian western Jews that we want to save them, or educate them, or in any way interfere with their cultural and religious life. Before we make assumptions about what they need or who they are, it would be well to acknowledge that they are the oldest ongoing community of Jews in the world continuously associated with one place. They are not Jews of exile. They are deeply rooted in the land of Cyrus. They can visit the graves of Esther and Mordecai, Daniel and Habbakuk. They possess a Torah that is over 1200 years old. The Jews of Esfahan have their own language! The Jews of Iran are deeply proud of their own heritage, even though they, like other Iranians, may struggle with the limitations imposed by the Islamic Republic on freedom of expression.

The second delegation I led to Iran in December 2008 composed of 10 Jewish participants and four non-Jewish participants, included two rabbis, a rabbinic student, and six other members who identify as 'religious' Jews. During our visit to Yusef Abad, the largest of approximately 22 synagogues in Tehran, I was invited to speak from the bimah (for the second time). Like the first time, people clapped and shouted in appreciation for our visit. When I identified the members of our delegation and asked them to stand, and pointed out that Sarah Bassem was also studying to be a rabbi, the congregation cheered again. Many people came up to me and began asking me 'rabbinic' questions, regardless of my gender.

Obviously, there are limitations on life for non-Muslims. There are limitations on life for minorities in the States as well. Still, the Jewish community is extremely proud of its heritage, and views the Iranian American Jewish community as somewhat lost. They point to the increase in divorce and inter-marriage as an example of the impact of assimilation which they do not feel in Iran.

The idea of Israel attacking Iran is an anathema to the Jews of Iran. Certainly, it would endanger them. We should cease and desist all bellicose language that threatens military action toward Iran immediately. For those of us in the Jewish community who have had the pleasure to visit the Jews of Iran, we understand the preciousness of that community. Any actions taken by Israel that would put the Jews of Iran in danger is a travesty.

Finally, I look forward to my next visit which will occur this coming August. I pray that the gates will remain open, and I will have the profound pleasure of deepening my experience with this ancient and honorable community.

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/02/a-rabbis-reflection-on-iran.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 02:51 PM

There are none so blind . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 01:48 PM

CarolC--You are much more computer literate than I. You are able to find some of the most obscure information to cut and paste in support of your arguments. However, as you have not been able to find the source of Bobad's posts, please let me help you. It took me fewer than 10 minutes to find the comments cited.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iran/2001/011214-text.html

It is in the third paragraph of the section headed, "US-British support for Israel."

Good reading.
JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 01:08 PM

And yet, when I google a quote from the text, the BBC does not come up, nor does any other legitimate news outlet.

Look, anyone can create a headline like that. That doesn't make it real.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 12:27 PM

Voice of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Tehran, in Persian 1130 gmt 14 Dec 01
Translated by BBC Worldwide Monitoring

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 12:23 PM

Again, when I Google a quote from that text, the only sites that come up are ones with a political axe to grind. Not a single legitimate news outlet comes up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 12:15 PM

Qods Day Speech (Jerusalem Day)

Chairman of Expediency Council Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani

December 14, 2001, Friday

Voice of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Tehran, in Persian 1130 gmt 14 Dec 01
Translated by BBC Worldwide Monitoring

"If one day ... Of course, that is very important. If one day, the Islamic world is also equipped with weapons like those that Israel possesses now, then the imperialists' strategy will reach a standstill because the use of even one nuclear bomb inside Israel will destroy everything. However, it will only harm the Islamic world. It is not irrational to contemplate such an eventuality."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 01:04 AM

That web page clearly is not a media organ of the Iranian government, or even the Iranian press. The website itself is located in France, according to the IP number.

So who made that page? When I google text from the page, I find a lot of anti-Iran, anti-Muslim hate sites, and the comments sections of blogs, but nothing else. I don't see any reason why we should accept that page as actually coming from, or containing any actual quotes from any members of the Iranian government.

I think it's probably a page that has been fabricated specifically for the purpose of it being used in precisely the manner it has been in the post above. To help spread hatred of Iranians, and to create a pretext and soften people in the West up for an attack on Iran, and not only that, one that was fabricated back in 2002 or before.

I found this in the Council on Foreign Relations website...


Iranian Expert Banuazizi: Rafsanjani Only Presidential Hopeful Who Can End U.S. Nuclear Standoff

Authors:         
Bernard Gwertzman, Consulting Editor
Ali Banuazizi

May 11, 2005

Ali Banuazizi, an expert on Iranian politics, says that of the various candidates for the next presidential election in Iran on June 17, only former President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani has a chance of ending the standoff with Washington over Iran�s nuclear program. Rafsanjani, he says, has held every position of authority in the Islamic Republic, and therefore �has the credibility, much like Nixon did vis-a-vis China, to cross that bridge.�

Rafsanjani, who is considered a pragmatic politician...

http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=8099


Here are some recent articles about Rafsanjani in some actual news sites...


In the Iranian press (lots of criticism, but no talk of a nuclear attack on Israel) -

http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=180820


And elsewhere -

"'Using the language of threat, and unfriendly rhetoric will not help resolve the problems. Iran is truly ready to settle issues through negotiations without preconditions and within the framework of international law,' Rafsanjani told French ambassador Bernard Poletti in a meeting on Sunday."

http://www.payvand.com/news/09/jan/1168.html


Spreading lies is vicious, and also murderous, if people end up getting killed because of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 10:49 PM

RAFSANJANI SAYS MUSLIMS SHOULD USE NUCLEAR WEAPON AGAINST ISRAEL

TEHRAN 14 Dec. (IPS) One of Iran’s most influential ruling cleric called Friday on the Muslim states to use nuclear weapon against Israel, assuring them that while such an attack would annihilate Israel, it would cost them "damages only".

"Jews shall expect to be once again scattered and wandering around the globe the day when this appendix is extracted from the region and the Muslim world", Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani warned, blaming on the United States and Britain the "creation of the fabricated entity" in the heart of Arab and Muslim world.

Observing that despite the fact that Israel is believed to have more than one hundred atomic warheads and the necessary technology to transport them to the very heart of Iran and elsewhere, but no Israeli official nor any newspaper have ever raised the slightest possibility of an atomic threat, "even in defence of their very existence", Mr. Salamatian wondered the reasons behind Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani’s declaration, which he said should be taken seriously "considering the rank of the man who pronounced it".

http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles_2001/dec_2001/rafsanjani_nuke_threats_141201.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 09:22 PM

Also, Iran's elections are free and open, and moderates do get elected. It is not a particularly controversial thing to say that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 09:15 PM

I should clarify that. He is specifically referring to what he calls the "Zionist regime in Israel". And this is what he has consistently said.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 09:14 PM

That's not a threat. It's a prediction. One has to really torture and distort his words to make them mean that he is threatening Israel with annihilation.

What he is saying there, and what he has consistently said, is that Israel is rotting from the inside out, and eventually it will collapse of own weight just like the Soviet Union did. And I think he has a very good point.