BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 09 - 06:20 PM

And of course, the first thing that would need to be done would be for Israel to be forced to end its illegal occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights, and to end the blockade of Gaza, all of which are in violation of international law.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 09 - 06:17 PM

Currently, the ONLY people who are NOT being punished for their violations of international law are the Israelis. Which has pretty much been my point all along. NOBODY has suggested that only Israel should be punished. At least I have never said that. However, I have yet to see anyone who has been making the kinds of arguments that we see in the above post call for the government of Israel to be sanctioned in any way for their many violations of international law, and any time people call for sanctioning of any sort against the government of Israel, people like the above poster respond with hostility.

So let's see who the hypocrites are. Show of hands... who thinks that the government of Israel should face the exact same consequences as groups like Hamas and Hezbollah for violations of international law? I say they should all be held to the exact same standard. Anyone else?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 03 May 09 - 05:03 PM

"The UN recognizes such fighters as having the same legitimacy as any country's military, and it says they should be treated no differently than the military personnel of any government."

I agree. It then means that 'soldiers' who kill civilians willingly deserve to be tried for that crime. That should apply to the Palestians, Hezbollah and Hamas, et.al., and NOT just Israel.

Nice to see there is at least SOME agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 09 - 12:47 PM

According to this, from the UN, it is Israel that is practicing terrorism, and it specifically recognizes what the Palestinians are doing as legitimate resistance...

http://www.i-p-o.org/GDT.HTM

"...we mention the ongoing struggle of the Palestinian people for their homeland in the face of Israeli and United States military and paramilitary policies throughout the entire eastern Mediterranean region...

...As repeatedly recognized by the United Nations General Assembly, peoples who are fighting against colonial domination and alien occupation and against racist regimes in the exercise of their right of self-determination have the right to use force to accomplish their objectives within the framework of international humanitarian law."


The UN recognizes such fighters as having the same legitimacy as any country's military, and it says they should be treated no differently than the military personnel of any government.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 May 09 - 08:37 AM

Carol and Teribus,

This may help.

Right to self determination and implied right to resistance

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 03 May 09 - 08:13 AM

Can you quote us this "International Law" that you seem to put so much faith in CarolC??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 May 09 - 10:19 AM

My record here in the Mudcat shows that I have always condemned the tactics used by Hamas and anyone else when they target people indiscriminately. It's right there for anyone to look up. Even right here in this thread.

However, while I condemn the use of rockets that don't discriminate between civilians and military, I nevertheless, don't condemn their right to fight occupation and genocide.

International law recognizes the right of everyone to resist occupation. So the countries that list Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorist organizations are doing so in contravention of international law.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 02 May 09 - 05:45 AM

"I always condemn the killing of civilians, but what Hamas does is not terrorism according to international law, nor Hezbollah, for that matter." - CarolC

Bloody odd therefore that both organisations are listed and recognised by many countries and by the UN as being terrorist organisations.

And no CarolC you do not "always" condemn the killing of civilians specifically if they are Jewish/Israeli civilians killed by anybody purportedly championing the "Palestinian cause". To your mind the indescriminate rocket attacks on Israeli civilians are fully justified - thankfully everybody with more than a single brain-cell bimbling about in their heads know that they are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 11:28 PM

Some excellent commentary on the Durban conference.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 08:21 PM

...and, as I said before, the very people who are always going on about terrorism against Israel are the first to try to shut people up when they try to talk about the terrorism that has been committed by the government of Israel and those who became the government of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 08:10 PM

Hardly. If Israel and the other Western countries really gave a shit about what Ahmadinejad had to say, they wouldn't have guaranteed that he would have center stage in order to say it. They wouldn't have guaranteed that he would be the only head of state at the conference, thereby giving him the podium according to the protocols of those kinds of conferences. They did that in order to give them yet another excuse to whip up hatred towards Iran in an effort to create justifications for military aggression against that country.

On the other hand, I don't consider people defending themselves against occupation to be terrorist activity. And neither does international law. So what the governments of Israel and the US are calling terrorism is not terrorism under international law. I always condemn the killing of civilians, but what Hamas does is not terrorism according to international law, nor Hezbollah, for that matter.

The only hate being spouted on this thread is coming from the people who are helping the government of Israel with its apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and genocide against the Palestinians and its planned military attack on Iran, by trying to silence those who speak out against those things.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:32 PM

More of your hate. You use that as an excuse NOT to talk about the wrongs of terrorist activity against Israel. That shit don't fly, ma'am.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:32 PM

Most definitely people are suggesting it is. They're saying that because of Ahmadinejad, all of the White countries had to boycott the racism conference. And by doing that, they are avoiding having the finger pointed at them as well, where it also belongs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:30 PM

By the way, the cherry pickers who are defending the Israeli government also don't mention the many terrorists who populate that government, either. If Western countries didn't support the terrorists in that government, there wouldn't even be a state of Israel today.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:30 PM

Someone suggested it is?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:27 PM

No, it's not ok. But it's not an excuse for us in the West to not do any better.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:23 PM

"Ahmadinejad's human rights record is no worse than those of the US and Israel."

And because it is no worse it is ok? Leopards/spots.

With your usual cherry-picking, you neglect to mention the human rights record of the terrorist organizations that 'support' the Palestinians. I'm sure it was just a minor oversight . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:12 PM

Because she says it, it is so.

Latte anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 06:09 PM

Whether or not Israel feels backed into a corner is irrelevant. As the Israeli soldiers in the Breaking the Silence organization have said, the only way to make any change in the behavior of the government of Israel towards the Palestinians is to change the perceptions of the voters in the US, because it is we who are bankrolling Israel's activities.

Arafat didn't blow anything off. He was still at the negotiating table after the Israelis left it.


Ahmadinejad's human rights record is no worse than those of the US and Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:51 PM

A fair assessment could be presented as follows

Pot (Iranian administration) <--> Kettle (Israeli administration)

Or vice versa.

Both are arguably identifiable as governments that at worst have a racist approach to faces that don't fit - and at best as turning a blind eye towards such attitudes against minorities in their respective constituencies, which makes them complicit.

So such criticism is indeed rich coming from Ahmedinejad, but it is not inaccurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:43 PM

The attempts to paint Israel into a corner are not helpful to the Palestinians in any case:

1) If you believe that Israel is earnest in its attempts at peace, then it's inaccurate, wrong and hurtful to the overall process to boycott Israel or portray her as a racist State.

2) If you believe that Israel is an outlaw state with an apartheid agenda towards the Palestinians than boycotting and demonstrating conveys the message to the Israelis that they have nothing to lose and if anything should accelerate this 'supposed' agenda.

The negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians that occurred toward the end of Clinton's second term were the last really direct contacts and Arafat simply blew off some real progress. Life has gone from hell to worse for the Palestinians and they and their leaders have been the major part of why.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:35 PM

From his speech.

"My presence in this conference indicates my respect for this important issue, and the essential issue of human rights and support for nations' rights against the evil phenomenon of racism and cooperation with you, the thinkers."

******************************************************

For those who support Ahmadinejad

Rights groups challenge Iran leader at racism meet
Apr 19, 2009

GENEVA (AFP) — Human rights groups on Sunday challenged President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to eliminate severe discrimination in Iran, ahead of his arrival at a UN conference against racism and intolerance in Geneva.

The International Federation of Human Rights (FIDH), the Baha'i International Community (BIC) and the Iranian League for Human Rights (LDDHI) said Ahmadinejad must tackle discrimination against religious and ethnic minorities, women, and halt incitement to hatred.

"By coming to the Durban Review Conference, President Ahmadinejad signals a commitment to the conference's goals of eliminating all forms of discrimination and intolerance," said Diane Ala'i, the BIC's representative at the UN in Geneva.

"His first move on returning home, then, should be to address the severe discrimination and persecution that have flourished under his tenure," she added.

Ahmadinejad is the most prominent head of state scheduled to address the opening of the UN review conference on Monday, which is being boycotted by the United States, Israel, Canada, Australia and the Netherlands.

His virulent anti-Israel statements and comments casting doubt on the Holocaust have prompted fears that his speech could overshadow the primary aim of the conference, to take stock of racial discrimination, xenophobia and intolerance around the world.

The rights groups said religious discrimination was widespread in Iran, notably affecting Baha'is, Christians, Jews, Sufis, Sunni Muslims, and other minorities, through arbitrary arrests, intimidation and harassment.

They also accused Iranian government-controlled media of fomenting hatred against Bahai's, and warned that repression against activists belonging to ethnic minorities including the Kurds was "rising dramatically".

"Human rights have sharply deteriorated in Iran under the presidency of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Discrimination against ethnic and religious minorities, as well as against women, are of grave concern," said Karim Lahidji of LDDHI.

The human rights groups called on governments taking part in the conference, as well as the media, to hold Ahmadinejad accountable for violations in Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:31 PM

Ahmadinejad's no saint. But he's not the devil people are trying to make him out to be, either.

And by the way, the Palestinians were completely shut out of that conference, and were prevented from being able to present anything they had to say, while Israel was very well represented, and took every opportunity to promote its agenda. So Ahmadinejad, flawed as he was, was the only person who actually spoke on behalf of the Palestinians at that event.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:19 PM

'Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad did not win friends among the Palestinian delegation at the United Nation's anti-racism conference in Geneva last week, even though he championed their cause on its opening day.

"He [Ahmadinejad] made from it a show and used it as an election campaign for his country," said Khraishi. [Palestinian rep.]

Although Ahmadinejad spoke of the "Zionist crimes of aggression, carnage and other brutalities" against the civilians in Gaza, the overall thrust of his speech, which called for the eradication of Zionism, did not fit within the goals and aims of the Palestinian delegation in Geneva. '


From the Jerusalem Post

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:03 PM

The hatemongers are also the White/European supremacists who think that the White folks get to dictate policy to the rest of the world, like the ones who are spreading hate towards Iran so they can whip people up into a frenzy of hate to support their military aggression and hegemonic ambitions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:02 PM

Latte anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 04:59 PM

It wasn't a hatemongering speech at all. The hatemongers are the ones who are supporting the policies he was criticizing in that speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 01 May 09 - 04:26 PM

According to what I've read, it was all planned and staged beforehand.

The walkout was planned before the speech because Iranian officials distributed the text of Ahmedinejad's hatemongering speech well in advance.

CarolC, of course, is on the record as saying agreeing with his hatemongering in that speech (save for his Holocaust denials, which, BTW, he didn't do in that speech).

And just as most western countries either boycotted the conference or walked out in the face of Ahmedinejad's hatemongering, I'm walking out of a thread filled with her Ahmedinejadisms.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 09 - 03:38 PM

According to what I've read, it was all planned and staged beforehand.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 May 09 - 05:09 AM

Carol,

The guardian article you posted on the subject of all the white countries walking out of an anti racism conference is very illuminating, and at the very least demonstrates an embarrassingly contemptable attitude by white europe towards the rest of the nations involved, regardless of the matter of Ahmedinejads views on Israel.

All the other non white, non Iranian and non Israeli countries must have felt really valued when all the important issues they wished to talk about were rendered meaningless in the blink of an eye.

And all the money that was spent hosting the event, presumably provided by taxpayers went the same way as the issues.

I'd love to know if the walk ouit was staged before or after the dinner.


Interesting how Europe acted en masse like that. Why were they so afraid of listening to someone express his political views.

Could it be blackmail? Surely not ...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 03:25 PM

Man, nutmeg. Best spaghetti I ever had was with a good tomato sauce and then grate fresh nutmeg on it, add some hot peppers and WOW.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 03:20 PM

I shouldn't be giving this out, but at Kaladi's in Anchorage, it's only 1.25 for a double shot of espresso, and as I said above, call it a 'con pane' and they put the whipped cream on top for nothin' extra. Now that Costco does not carry bulk nutmeg, the cheap S O B's don't either, but they do make a good cup and they're friendly.

time to go out, now, my unlimited love to y'all (quoting Barry White from The Simpsons)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 03:14 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 03:01 PM

Beautiful weather here in Saint John too .... was up and out early this mornning ... stopped into Tim's and paid a $1.29 for a medium coffee ( 4 milks and 1 sugar) ... and I didn't leave a tip !

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 02:50 PM

Two bucks for that? Sheesh . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 02:19 PM

No latte, can't afford paying an extra two bucks for an ounce of froth. (They put whipped cream on top for nothin'!)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 02:10 PM

Stop being so repetative. Make it taunts and smears for a change.

Now, back to coffee . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 02:05 PM

I think I would add, about those who resort to smears and taunts in discussions like these, that while those tactics do nothing to actually further their arguments, I guess I can understand the appeal of that approach and the masturbatory sort of pleasure it obviously gives them.


It's a bit on the warm side here today (sunny and 82 F), so I've been coming in for breaks every now and then. As the shade takes more of the yard, I'll be taking fewer breaks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:49 PM

No comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:47 PM

Latte? PLEASE say no . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:42 PM

Hey, we're all weekend posting. I appreciate ya'll's prompt responses. Hope you're having some good weather as we are! I'm at my usual South Anchortown coffee hangout. It's soon going to be too warm for me to bear being indoors and I'm going out and rake the volcanic ash out of my still sleeping lawn (along with last year's leaves, I'msolazy). So I'll be posting just a little more staccato like. I appreciate that people are arguing a bit more than mere abusing, just wanted to register my caffeinated well-being to you ALL.

Fondly,

robo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:38 PM

Damn. There's the trouble. He's a closet Christian . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:35 PM

My, oh my.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:33 PM

Smears and taunts...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:33 PM

Some interesting commentary on the walkout at the Geneva Conference on racism.


"The 23 countries that walked out of the Geneva Conference during Ahmadinejad's speech are: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and the UK.

The 27 EU members are the above plus Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Poland, which had already decided not to send delegates at all. The other 5 countries which had already decided not to send delegates at all are Australia, Canada, Israel, New Zealand and the US.

So the formula for the bloc claiming that Ahmadinejad is 'racist' is: EU, plus Israel, plus the surviving 'Anglo-Saxon' or 'English-speaking' — i.e., white colonial — states: Australia & New Zealand, the USA & Canada. It seems then that this bloc is no more nor less than the white, western colonialist and imperialist nations, with Israel acting as their convenor, and that to be opposed to white, western colonialism and imperialism is the real definition of 'racism' in their eyes."

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/mohammad-of-vancouver-on-the-antiahmadinejad-bloc-.html


And also...

What credibility is there in Geneva's all-white boycott?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:27 PM

. . . and cut and paste, lest we forget.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:20 PM

Good advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:20 PM

Smears and taunts is all they've got.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:19 PM

And now,

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:19 PM

And the people in Iran have said many times that interference from Western countries, strengthens, rather than weakens the hard-liners in the regime.

The motives of people who are using the rights of Iranians as an excuse to attack Iran are very transparent. They won't listen to what the Iranians themselves say about what they want, but rather, they think they are entitled to override the desires if the people of Iran and impose their own agenda on the people of that country. This has nothing whatever to do with the rights of the Iranians, and everything to do with a desire to establish and enforce Israeli hegemony in the Middle East.