BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 09:25 AM

Comment by Israeli sniper re that T-Shirt:-


""I mean it's not like someone is gonna go and shoot a pregnant woman.""


Yeah, RIGHT!!

Gives a whole new slant on the high moral tone of the IDF, doesn't it, and not out of some Hamas propaganda publication, but straight from the horse's arse.


And incidentally BB, while we're watching the Israelis wriggle, with regard to your earlier comment about Hamas war crimes, tell me how many Israeli civilians were slaughtered during that campaign?


Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 07:58 AM

A reminder that today is World Water Day

On the occasion of 2009 World Day for Water the ICRC call on governments to ensure safe water and decent sanitation for civilians in conflict zones. In many conflicts, disease kills more civilians than bullets

"The Centre on Housing Rights and Evictions has released a report entitled Hostage to Politics: The impact of sanctions and the blockade on the human right to water and sanitation in Gaza. The report is available at www.cohre.org.

The report shows that sanctions imposed on the Gaza administration by both Israel and western states and Israel's closure of Gaza's border crossings has left more than 250,000 people without adequate water supply and the restrictions on fuel may leave 1.5 million people without water and sewage services.

The report shows that financial sanctions imposed on the Gaza administration have caused the near collapse of basic service provision in the water and waste-water sectors.

The blockade has prevented the entry of essential materials required to operate and maintain water and sewage services as well as the entry of chemicals and filters necessary for water purification, putting the people of Gaza's health at risk.

The sanctions imposed on the Gaza administration by both Israel and western states and Israel's closure of Gaza's border crossings have caused a humanitarian crisis which includes the widespread denial of economic, social and cultural rights."

EMWIS* report 2008

*EMWIS is an initiative of the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership. It provides a strategic tool for exchanging information and knowledge in the water sector between and within the Euro Mediterranean partnership countries
All the countries involved in the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership are concerned:
The 27 EU member states
The 10 Mediterranean Partner Countries (Algeria, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Palestine, Syria, Tunisia and Turkey

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 06:47 AM

"No, that would be a good thing."
Then join us in condemning ALL abuses, outrages and massacres instead of hiding behind "He hit me as well sir!!!"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 04:21 AM

From Haaretz. Boys will be boys, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 01:43 AM

Israel seems to only investigate after they've been caught with their dants down & are embrassed by exposure. They should allow the UN investagator to go in & do their own independant investagation & I got just the man for the job, Blix!

Or else we invade

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 12:49 AM

"Meaning one autricity justifies another Bruce?"

NO.

But it seems that Israel at least investigates, while Hamas rewards.


"There is a call out to investigate ALL war crimes and abuses in Palestine by an independant body - can't fault that - can you?"

No, that would be a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 05:51 PM

"they were judged by these to be unfounded (see Jenin, and others).

That is somewhat of a distortion of the findings of the various independent inquiries held into what happened at Jenin - See here - with links to various other inquiries, including the United Nations report, which had some difficulties in getting access to information.

The UN Secretary General in the introduction to the report: "The report was written without a visit to Jenin or the other Palestinian cities in question and it therefore relies completely on available resources and information...

...The Under-Secretary-General for Political Affairs wrote to the Permanent Representative of Israel and the Permanent Observer of Palestine to the United Nations requesting them to submit information but only the latter did so."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Diggory Venn
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 11:49 AM

'There is a call out to investigate ALL war crimes and abuses in Palestine by an independant body'

That can only be good. Independent bodies investigated such claims of 'war crimes' and autrocities (sic) before; they were judged by these to be unfounded (see Jenin, and others).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 08:56 AM

Meaning one autricity justifies another Bruce?
There is a call out to investigate ALL war crimes and abuses in Palestine by an independant body - can't fault that - can you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 05:58 AM

jim,

And the reported war crimes by Hamas have been investigated... when???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 03:37 AM

Reported war crimes and abuses by Israelis have been investigated in the past - by Israel - they were overwhelmingly judged to be unfounded.
Now there's a surprise!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 05:00 PM

"Dead Palestinian babies and bombed mosques - IDF fashion 2009"

A nightmarish story - for example "A sharpshooter's T-shirt from the Givati Brigade's Shaked battalion shows a pregnant Palestinian woman with a bull's-eye superimposed on her belly, with the slogan, in English, '1 shot, 2 kills.'

The only good thing about it is that the story was published by the Israeli paper Haaretz. "For the sake of even just ten good people, I will not destroy the city..."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 03:26 PM

"the testimonies will be checked carefully"

I hope that isn't a coded way of indicating that the whistleblowers are going to be leaned on.

Pretty clearly the Israeli Government and the IDF should be the last people to be in charge of any investigations into these allegations.

But pretty evidently they are going to be in charge - as always happens in this kind of situation, no matter which country is involved. Which means that even if the allegations were in fact exaggerated or false no one will believe any finding to that effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:43 AM

Rights group names 1,417 Gaza war dead

AP - Thursday, March 19, 2009 3:16:08 PM
By KARIN LAUB

The final tally of Palestinians killed in Israel's recent war on Gaza's Hamas rulers is 1,417, including 926 civilians, according to a Palestinian human rights groups that published the names, ages and other information about the dead on its Web site Thursday.

Israel disputed the findings by the Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR), saying it believes the majority of the dead were combatants or legitimate targets, but offered no evidence. An Israeli think tank said its analysis of the PCHR's data suggests the number of civilians is lower than the rights group claims.

Israel waged a three-week war in Gaza, ending with a unilateral cease-fire Jan. 18, in an attempt to weaken the Islamic militant Hamas and halt persistent rocket fire from Gaza on Israeli border towns.

After a week of air strikes, Israeli tanks and ground forces entered the territory, flattening several neighborhoods and industrial areas near the border. Some 15,000 houses and hundreds of businesses were destroyed or damaged, according to independent assessments.

Human rights groups have accused Israel of using excessive force, noting that heavy civilian casualties were inevitable in densely populated Gaza. Israel said Hamas militants intentionally operated from residential areas in order to use civilians as human shields.

The PCHR said in a statement that the large number of civilians among the dead is proof that Israeli troops "used excessive and random force through the entire period of aggression, violating the principle of distinction (between combatants and civilians)."

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev rejected the allegation. "Israel, during the military campaign, made every possible effort to target enemy combatants only," he said.

The PCHR said its list, including determining the number of civilians, is based on thorough research. It said among the dead were 926 civilians, including 313 minors under the age of 18 and 116 women. The group counted 236 combatants and 255 members of the Hamas security forces.

Of the security forces, 240 were killed on Dec. 27, the first day of the war, when Israeli aircraft unleashed massive strikes on Hamas security compounds, the report said.

During the war, the group's field workers were deployed at seven Gaza hospitals, recording names and other information about the dead as the bodies were brought in, said the group's deputy director, Jabr Wishah. After the war, researchers checked all those initially listed as civilians, interviewing their family members and neighbors and collecting ID numbers, medical records and death certificates, he said.

Researcher Mohammed Ghannam said he would sometimes change a classification after a follow-up visit.

For example, the Dughmush family in Gaza City insisted Hamdan Dughmush, 19, was watching clashes between Hamas gunmen and Israeli soldiers when he was killed near his home.

However, neighbors told Ghannam that Dughmush was planting a roadside bomb, and the researcher said he moved the young man from the "civilian" to the "combatant" column.

In another case, a 16-year-old initially listed as a civilian because of his age was later labeled a combatant because of circumstantial evidence, Ghannam said.

In a reverse example, one member of the Hamas military wing was listed as a civilian because he was killed at home, along with 21 other members of the family, when an Israeli airstrike flattened the building on Jan. 6, the researcher said.

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said after the war that more than 700 Hamas members were among the dead and Israel had their names. However, Israel has not released its own list of Palestinians killed, and hasn't said when it would do so. It remains unclear how the military, without access to Gaza, would compile a thorough list.

Still, Regev said that "the overwhelming majority of casualties were Hamas operatives and others who were, under international law, legitimate targets."

Also Thursday, the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism, an Israeli think tank, presented its own analysis of the PCHR data, based on preliminary lists, not the final one published Thursday.

Researchers Yael Shahar and Don Radlauer said they did not dispute the final tally, since they have no access to Gaza, but they believe the number of dead combatants is higher.

They said they found 314 confirmed combatants -- 78 more than PCHR listed. Their figure is based on checking the PCHR's list against those claimed as dead fighters on Web sites of militant groups.

The researchers also classified 518 of the dead as unknown, arguing that not enough information is available to put them in either category. They noted that about 80 percent in the group of unknowns were men, including many in their 20s.

This gender and age distribution refutes allegations that Israeli forces targeted Palestinians randomly, the researchers said. "We are being accused of not aiming, of indiscriminate attacks, and the demographics clearly contradict that," said Radlauer.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:23 AM

From CNN:

Israeli military to probe Gaza campaign allegations

Story Highlights
Claims made by Israeli graduates of a pre-military course at an Israeli college

First reported in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz on Thursday

Case refers to Israel's recent military campaign in Gaza

One soldier claims an elderly woman was shot on orders of a commander

   
JERUSALEM (CNN) -- The Israeli military plans to investigate claims by Israeli soldiers that Palestinian civilians were killed and Palestinian property intentionally destroyed during Israel's recent 22-day offensive in the Gaza Strip.

Many Palestinian civilians were killed after being caught up in the 22-day conflict in Gaza.

The claims were made by Israeli soldiers who were graduates of a pre-military course at an Israeli college. They were first reported in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz on Thursday.

At a gathering at the college following the Gaza operation, the newspaper reported, soldiers gave testimony that ran counter to persistent claims by the military that "Israeli troops observed a high level of moral behavior during the operation."

The testimony was taken down by the head of the college's pre-military program, Danny Zamir. He told Haaretz that he did not know what the soldiers were going to say and that what they heard "shocked us."

According to Haaretz, Zamir passed on the testimony to the Israel Defense Forces chief of staff, saying he "feared a serious moral failure in the IDF."

Contacted by CNN, Zamir said he would not comment to the foreign press on the matter and that the full testimony would be appearing in Haaretz newspaper. Portions of the testimony appeared in the Thursday edition of Haaretz and more is expected in coming days.

In one account, a squad leader from a brigade serving in Gaza described an incident in which he said an elderly Palestinian woman was shot and killed at the orders of a company commander.

According to the testimony, the squad leader protested the rules of engagement, which he said allowed soldiers to fire on Palestinian homes without giving residents a warning. After the rules were changed, his soldiers complained that "we should kill everyone there [in the center of Gaza]. Everyone there is a terrorist."

According to Haaretz, the squad leader went on to testify that, "You do not get the impression from the officers that there is any logic to it, but they won't say anything. To write 'death to the Arabs' on the walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can. I think this is the main thing: To understand how much the IDF has fallen in the realm of ethics, really. It's what I'll remember the most."

In a statement released Thursday, the Israeli military spokesman's office said Gen. Avichai Mendelblit, the Israeli military's advocate general, had ordered an immediate investigation be opened that will "examine" what was said by the soldiers.

Israeli Defense minister Ehud Barak told Army Radio Thursday that "Israel has the most moral army in the world" and that the testimonies will be checked carefully.

In addition, a coalition of nine Israeli human rights groups called on Israeli Attorney General Menachem Mazuz to reconsider his refusal to establish an independent investigative body to examine the military's actions during the Gaza campaign, known as "Operation Cast Lead."

The groups -- The Association for Civil Rights in Israel, Bimkom, B'tselem, Gisha, Hamoked, The Public Committee Against Torture, Yesh Din, Physicians for Human Rights, Rabbis for Human Rights, Adalah, and Itach - Women Lawyers for Social Justice -- said accounts by Palestinians raise the possibility that acts by the military were worse than previously suspected.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Every case should be looked at, and if illegal acts were commited the responsible parties should be held accountable.







Now, waiting on the investigation of Hamas war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:00 AM

Report from Financial Times, via the Irish Times.
Prosecuting ranking soldiers for their behaviour in war without holding the officers or the Government to account is equivilent to blaming the camp guards for the Holocaust - whatever happened to 'The Buck Stops Here'?
Jim Carroll

Israeli soldiers admit Gaza abuses
Criminal inquiry ordered in wake of soldiers' testimony
TOBIAS BUCK in Jerusalem
ISRAELI SOLDIERS have provided the most damning indictment yet of the army's conduct during the recent Gaza war, claiming they committed serious abuses against civilians, including the shooting of unarmed women and children.
One incident, in which a Gaza woman was killed by Israeli sharpshooters, was described as "coldblooded murder" by a soldier who served in the conflict. In response to a string of testimonies compiled by an army training school, published in the media yesterday, Israel's military advocate general has ordered a criminal investigation.
The revelations are likely to further undermine Israel's image, already dented by the war in January. Palestinian and international human rights groups, have long claimed that Israeli forces operating in the Gaza Strip committed grave violations against the civilian population. More than 1, 400 Palestinians were killed during Israel's three-week assault on the Hamas-controlled strip.
Claims of war crimes, as well as the mounting international effort to prosecute Israeli officials and soldiers for alleged violations, have met angry denials from the government and army.
Speaking on the night Israel ended its offensive, prime minister Ehud Olmert applauded the army for its "great sensitivity in exercising its force", adding that few countries would have behaved with such restraint.
That claim has been undermined by the testimony of Israel's soldiers. In a 35-page eyewitness report compiled by the head of a military preparation programme, soldiers reported cases in which troops shot civilians and vandalised homes. Several said there was a general disregard for the safety of civilians.
"I felt there was a lot of thirst for blood, " one soldier is quoted as saying. "This is the beauty of Gaza. You see a person walking down a street or path; he does not have to be with a weapon. You just have to see him with something, and you shoot him. " Another soldier said: "The atmosphere in general - how should I say this? - the life of the Palestinians is much less important than the life of our soldiers. " One officer described the behaviour of soldiers occupying a Palestinian house, highlighting abuses including "writing sentences on the walls like 'Death to the Arabs', taking family pictures and spitting on them, burning everything that reminds us of the family.
"Talking about the IDF being a 'moral army' - that's not the case in the field. " - [Financial Times)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 04:51 PM

If one tenth of that is true then the Israeli Armed Forces and Government have to prosecute the guilty to the full extent of the law in as clear and transparent a manner as possible. If permissable under Israeli Military Codes of Justice the worst offenders should be executed by firing squad, like Admiral Byng - in order to encourage the others never to act in such a manner ever again.

They must also address the vital importance of teaching their conscript soldiers what are, and what are not, lawful commands. They must drill that same instruction into the very souls of their officer cadets in order that such things never occur again. It is quite simple:

"Thou shalt not do murder"

As for the roles in this played by the Rabbi's as reported, clear instructions must be given to Commanding Officers and passed to the troops of the Israeli Defence Force under their command if it ever occurs again - Shoot the Rabbi on the spot.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 12:56 PM

An interesting link about Israeli soldiers giving some pretty worrying testimony about their own officers.


Click here


Note, this is testimony coming from Israeli jews, being reported on the BBC.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 11:20 AM

Palestinian reconciliation talks break up, no deal
         

Salah Nasrawi, Associated Press Writer – 46 mins ago

AFP CAIRO – Egyptian-mediated talks between the rival Palestinian groups Hamas and Fatah broke up Thursday, without a deal on a national unity government, participants said.

The break-up of the talks came just two days after negotiations in Cairo between Hamas and Israel over a prisoner swap ran aground.

The deadlock in both negotiating tracks raises questions about plans by the international community to rebuild parts of Gaza, devastated in Israel's recent military offensive against Hamas. Gaza's borders have been virtually sealed since Hamas seized the territory by force in June 2007, and international aid groups have said reconstruction of the war damage is impossible without open borders.

However, reconstruction plans hinged on the success of parallel negotiations — on a Palestinian unity deal and on the release of Israeli soldier Gilad Schalit, held in Gaza, for hundreds of Palestinian prisoners.

Without progress on either front, Gaza's borders will likely remain closed.

In the unity talks, Hamas and its moderate Fatah rivals were trying to agree on the terms of a joint coalition for an interim unity government that would set the stage for elections by January.

The key sticking point was the program of the new government. Another unresolved issue is to what extent Hamas would abide by past accords with Israel.

Fatah negotiators said the new government must commit to the program of the PLO, which recognized Israel in 1993. Hamas refuses to recognize Israel, and only wants the new government to "respect" the PLO commitments. Earlier this week, Egyptian envoys sounded out U.S. and European diplomats about whether they would be willing to accept something less than a commitment to the PLO agreements.

After the break-up Thursday, Hamas official Fawzi Barhoum reiterated that his group will not agree to "commit" to the accords or recognize Israel.

Samir Ghosheh, a negotiator for a tiny PLO faction, said Egyptian mediators told the Palestinian representatives on Thursday to pack their bags. The Egyptian hosts did not set a date for a new round, he said. Negotiations had begun last week.

"Personally, I don't think there will be a resumption of talks unless there are clear indications that the problems will be solved," said Ghosheh.

However, Fatah's Azzam al-Ahmed said the talks will continue after an Arab summit at the end of March.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Mar 09 - 06:53 AM

Terrorists raising funds for the assassination of leaders

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 01:03 PM

"They are not acting like people who are negotiating from a position of weakness,"

That's statement that says exactlly how Israel would want the situation to be!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 08:40 AM

Hamas not budging in Israel, Fatah talks
         
Karin Laub, Associated Press Writer – 2 hrs 1 min ago

Reuters KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip – An opening of Gaza's blockaded borders, access to billions of dollars in foreign aid, a popularity boost — Hamas would have much to gain by working out a prisoner swap with Israel and a power-sharing arrangement with its West Bank rivals.

Instead, Gaza's Islamic militant rulers have been clinging to their demands and displaying a stubbornness that would seem irrational considering the enormous stakes.

But Hamas apparently believes that time is on its side and that its adversaries — Israel, moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and the West — will eventually fold, analysts say.

"They are not acting like people who are negotiating from a position of weakness," said Robert Blecher, an analyst with the International Crisis Group think tank.

Egypt has been mediating parallel sets of talks involving Hamas — with Israel on exchanging a captured Israeli soldier, Gilad Schalit, for hundreds of Palestinian prisoners, and with Abbas' Fatah movement on a transitional government that would pave the way for new elections.

Hamas wants Israel to release 450 prisoners with lengthy terms for Schalit, and resists demands by Abbas that the unity government commit to the Palestine Liberation Organization program, including its recognition of Israel.

In both cases, Hamas is refusing to make concessions that could lead to a lifting of the Gaza closure, imposed by Israel and Egypt after Hamas' violent takeover there in 2007.

"Hamas is sticking to its demands," spokesman Ayman Taha said after the failure of the prisoner talks Tuesday, even adding a threat that Hamas would try to capture more Israeli soldiers. On Wednesday, Hamas' military wing said it might harden demands in future talks.

Such swagger comes, in part, from surviving the border blockade and Israel's recent military offensive in Gaza, which served to emphasize how hard it would be to bring Hamas down.

Ending Gaza's isolation has become more urgent since the war — reconstruction requires open borders and huge sums in foreign aid, already promised by donor countries. But Hamas seems in no hurry.

In the final stage of negotiations over prisoners this weekend, outgoing Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert offered to free 320 prisoners of the 450 Hamas was demanding.

Compromise on the prisoners might be seen in Gaza as inadequate compensation for the hardship that befell the territory after Hamas-allied militants captured Schalit in a cross-border raid in 2006. Israel closed Gaza's borders, bombed Gaza's only power station and unleashed military strikes that killed hundreds.

Hamas is also under pressure from the families of prisoners not to leave any lifers behind.

"Getting the prisoners out is more important than open borders," 70-year-old Khadije Salameh said Tuesday, flanked in her living room in the town of Khan Younis by the gold-framed posters of her imprisoned sons Hassan and Akram.

Hassan Salameh is among the 11 prisoners Israel says it will never free. Arrested in 1995, he is serving 48 life terms for masterminding several suicide bombings that killed dozens of Israelis.

The release of the 11 names and Olmert's pledge not to lift the blockade without Schalit will tie the hands of his designated successor, hard-line Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu. Hamas could have a tough time getting a better deal from Netanyahu.

The deadlock complicates the international community's plans for Gaza reconstruction.

"We are not able to bring anything in for rebuilding Gaza until the case of the Israeli soldier Schalit is resolved, and that's what the Israelis are telling us," Karen Abu Zayd, who runs the major U.N. aid agency in Gaza, said Tuesday.

Donor countries are ready to give billions of dollars to fix the war damage, including repairing or rebuilding 15,000 homes, but can't do so without open borders and won't give the money to Hamas.

The purpose of the Palestinian unity talks is to form an interim government made up of both rival factions until new elections are held by January 2010.

Such an arrangement would let funds start flowing, but would force Hamas to soften its opposition to Israel. And Hamas can't afford to compromise on its principles, especially with the possibility of elections in less than a year, said Hani Basoos, a Gaza analyst now based in Europe.

Hamas is committed to Israel's destruction, in contrast to Fatah, which seeks a Palestinian state alongside Israel. An implicit recognition of Israel would also undercut Hamas' main argument in any election campaign that Fatah's 16 years of peace talks with Israel have been a waste of time.

Hamas has shown that its stubbornness is not a negotiating tactic, Basoos said.

"If they wanted to compromise, they would have done it last year or the year before," he said. "It is a waiting game."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 02:34 PM

All depends whether he is alive

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 02:29 PM

JotSC

Maybe one IDF soldier is the equivalent of 500? Maybe Israel's getting a deal!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 01:33 PM

I hope Robomatic is right on this, but I'm not so sure....

Last update - 16:02 12/03/2009                           
Hamas condemns Gaza rocket strikes on Israel
By The Associated Press

"Gaza's Hamas rulers issued rare criticism Thursday of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel from the strip, saying now is the wrong time for such attacks."

The implication of that statement is there is a right time to attack Israel...when Hamas is ready to do so.

I note that today Israel has agreed to exchange 450 Palesinian prisoners for one kidnapped IDF soldier. Another victory for Hamas!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 11:55 AM

A hopeful development, if it is not mere window dressing:

"Hamas, which runs Gaza, said it had nothing to do with the attacks and would act against those responsible."

I heard it on the BBC

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:21 AM

"I called the consequences in Iraq some 7 years ago."

Bobert 20 Jul 07

    Anyone else notice that every day the Bushites push back the date that ***The Surge*** will work???

    Seems like it's been moved back twice this week from Septmeber to next summer??? At that rate, give the Bushites another week an' it will be sometime in the next century...

    Face it folks... The surge ain't gonna work... This is a civil war we are now in the middle of... We ain't gonna win this one... Might of fact, this is alike rootin' for the home team late in the 4th quarter and down by 4 touchdowns... Yeah, I think we can all relate... Yeah, we hope that we just get one more touchdown but understand that the game is lost...

    Iraq is lost...

    The folks sayin', "Oh geeze, we just can't afford to loose" won't change this very simple truth...

    Iraq is lost...

    Better just dig in, bite the bullet and make the most of it...

    So I would think the question at hand isn't about whether or not the war can be won but what to do now...

    That involves a major paradyme switch...

    There are things that a militarially defeated US can do... Lot's of them... BUt they can't do them until they give up this false hope that **the surge*** will bring victory, or stability... That won't happen...

    Bobert

Obammer on the surge: "It's succeeded beyond our wildest dreams."

Andrea Mitchell: "clearly, the surge has worked, and not only in terms of security. There is some level of political reconciliation. The Sunnis rejoined the government"

Peter Mansoor - How The Surge Worked - Washingtonpost.com
The arrival of additional U.S. forces signaled renewed resolve. Sunni tribal leaders, having glimpsed the dismal future in store for their people under a regime controlled by al-Qaeda in Iraq and fearful of abandonment, were ready to throw in their lot with the coalition. The surge did not create the first of the tribal "awakenings," but it was the catalyst for their expansion and eventual success. The tribal revolt took off after the arrival of reinforcements and as U.S. and Iraqi units fought to make the Iraqi people secure.

New York Times: The surge, clearly, has worked.

Bartle Bull: How we’ve won the war in Iraq - Times Online

Michael Yon: "we’ve won the war in Iraq and all that remains is clean-up"

Bobert enjoys living in the past, denying the present and boasting about his non existent facts.

I am still waiting for him to get back to me about that M16 that he swears Rumsfeld gave to Saddam, the bad gas that the US sold him to gas the Kurds with, the booty he got from the US for doing so and the source of these "facts" but he hightailed it out of that thread real quick like, rather than answer. A real drive-by stink bomb toss.

"Heck, the US even provided the bad gas that was used against the Kurds... Even rewarded Saddam ****afterwards**** with all kinds of booty, including a gold plated M-16 rifle..."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 12:18 AM

OK. Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 10:20 PM

Israel currently has more than enough weapons with which to defend itself. It doesn't need any more from the US taxpayers. Israel is also perfectly capable of producing its own weapons without handouts from the US taxpayers.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 07:08 PM

I read that also. Thing is, Israel ends up with no way to defend itself against people who want to exterminate the Jews in that country. So I don't think Israel will go for it--nor will the US admin.

I DO know I wish the killing on both sides would stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 06:32 PM

The report said that Hamas is getting its weapons (some of which are Iranian made, and also Russian and Chinese made) on the black market, not from Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 06:23 PM

'The human rights group said that those arming both sides in the conflict "will have been well aware of a pattern of repeated misuse of weapons by both parties and must therefore take responsibility for the violations perpetrated".'

Even if the US does withdraw weapons aid, will Iran?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 06:14 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/23/military-aid-israel-amnesty

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 06:46 PM

I don't often find myself wanting to amplify the words of Fareed Zakaria, but in this case, I'll make an exception...

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/fareed_zakaria/2009/02/israels_existential_dilemma.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 05:52 PM

What the hey...

..1200...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 05:40 PM

PS That ain't the whole article. I coulddn't make a link to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 05:40 PM

"Al-Qaeda founder launches fierce attack on Osama bin Laden
One of al-Qaeda's founding leaders, Dr Fadl, has begun an ideological revolt against Osama bin Laden, blaming him for "every drop" of blood spilt in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Sayyid Imam al-Sharif: The terrorist attacks on September 11 were both immoral and counterproductive, he writes
Sayyid Imam al-Sharif, who goes by the nom de guerre Dr Fadl, helped bin Laden create al-Qaeda and then led an Islamist insurgency in Egypt in the 1990s.

But in a book written from inside an Egyptian prison, he has launched a frontal attack on al-Qaeda's ideology and the personal failings of bin Laden and particularly his Egyptian deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri.

Twenty years ago, Dr Fadl became al-Qaeda's intellectual figurehead with a crucial book setting out the rationale for global jihad against the West.

Today, however, he believes the murder of innocent people is both contrary to Islam and a strategic error. "Every drop of blood that was shed or is being shed in Afghanistan and Iraq is the responsibility of bin Laden and Zawahiri and their followers," writes Dr Fadl."

Maybe the assholes in Hamas and Hezbollah could learn from this.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 03:32 AM

You're right Carole, thanks for redirecting me. I thought it was John quoting his usual Rush job

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 11:49 PM

I think the charlatan being referred to in this case is probably Dr. Phil.

(Thanks, though :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 11:17 PM

Why in the world would you think that Carole's quoting charlatans John??? When so many of near 1300 dead were an awfully high percentage of children. Some one killed the children & the next thing I can hear you say it was done at the hands of the people of Gaza & that they themselves were responsible for the deaths of their own children.
When children, women & innocents of any other community get killed in these high numbers by a military force there's usually blood to be paid but here in the shadow of Israel it's somehow the victum whose at fault. Yes the people of Palestine are the victums, they may be wearing suductive clothing which has the blind thinking it's ok if they get raped & murdered, that they had asked for it & had it coming but there is not excuse for murder, even if they were asking for it, as the Israeli's would have the world believe, when it is Israel that's the wolve hidden in the skin of sheep. Thery are no better than dogs.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 02:03 PM

I wasn't screaming...I was just differentiating my post from yours.

I do know that all caps is a screaming convention...but I don't do hotmail with italics or color or that sort of thing, but you interpret anyway you want to.

Keep on quoting charlatans...that really impresses me!!!! But I've told you that already.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 01:45 PM

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=56368&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 11:29 AM

I must be havin' a better one than you, John, cause my blood pressure is a steady 110/70 and SCREAMING doesn't really appeal to me as a way to communicate...

Way too much SCREAMING going on in the Middle East and in the words of Doctor Phil, "How;s that workin' for ya'???"

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 10:30 AM

Bobert -- having a stream of consciousness moment are we?

I might be an amatuer in yer little narrow minded view but I called the consequences in Iraq some 7 years ago...   OFF POINT

And my observations on the Isreali/Palestrianian conflict is not at all out of mainstream thinking of peace advocates... NOT SOMETHING TO BE BRAGGED ABOUT IN THIS INSTANCE

Just not the thinking that perpetuates the conflict... JUST THE THINKING THAT ELIMINATES ISRAEL AS A NATION

You are a very angry person...PERHAPS, WHEN I READ SOME OF THE BULLSHIT HERE

Have a nice day.

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 08:12 AM

John on Sunset Coast- 18 Feb.09, 10:23

Who appointed you see're of all truth???

I might be an amatuer in yer little narrow minded view but I called the consequences in Iraq some 7 years ago...

And my observations on the Isreali/Palestrianian conflict is not at all out of mainstream thinking of peace advocates...

Just not the thinking that perpetuates the conflict...

You post is representative of that thinking... It is very George Bushish... Very dogmatic and very self centered...

You are a very angry person...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 02:00 AM

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/ips.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:50 PM

Promising Freedom, Hamas Pressures Journalists

New York Times Sept. 4, 2007

GAZA CITY, â€" During the first Fatah protest rally at Friday Prayer here late last month, a number of Palestinian journalists trying to cover the event were beaten by the Hamas police force. Some journalists were arrested and their cameras seized, prompting complaints from the Gaza branch of the Palestinian Journalists Syndicate.
    The next night, at about 10 p.m., Hamas police officers entered Sakher Abu El Oun’s courtyard, preparing to arrest him. Mr. Abu El Oun, a reporter for Agence France-Presse and head of the union here, telephoned a colleague.
    "I called one journalist who sent out an SMS," he said, referring to a text message, "and within minutes, about 70 journalists and some human rights activists came to my house and prevented them from taking me away. My kids were crying. It was a very ugly picture."
    The police told him, he said, "that they had instructions to arrest me, I had refused, and I would be responsible" for any consequences.Hamas seems confused about how to quash Fatah protests and simultaneously deal with the news media. Trying to nurture a reputation for honesty and legal behavior since they conquered Gaza in bloody fighting in June, Hamas’s leaders promise journalists freedom of action while the police intimidate them.
    One result is a kind of self-censorship, local journalists say, that goes beyond what they traditionally practiced under Fatah, which also tried to pressure, manipulate or own the Palestinian press.
    Mr. Abu El Oun, 42, is a good case in point. The immediate crisis for him ended when a Hamas government spokesman, Taher el-Nounou, a former journalist, arrived at his house with a message from the former Hamas prime minister, Ismail Haniya, telling the police to leave.
    Later, speaking for the union, Mr. Abu El Oun talked about the broader problems journalists were facing. "We are asking for the freedom to cover the protests," he said. "They can prevent the demonstrations, but not the right of journalists to cover them. We are under self-censorship because we don’t know what is allowed, what isn’t. There is no clear policy. All the journalists are worried, scared."
    He has since been asked by his employer not to speak to journalists.One Hamas leader, Mahmoud Zahar, called Mr. Abu El Oun "one bad guy" in an interview and accused him of "presenting himself as a Fatah leader," in part because of his role in what was a Fatah-dominated union. But in 2001, Mr. Abu El Oun was badly beaten with an iron bar by members of the Fatah-dominated Preventive Security Force and nearly died. He underwent significant reconstructive surgery but returned to work.
    Palestinian journalists describe a confusing situation, in which Hamas, as a fundamentally religious organization new to politics and used to obedience, is putting undue pressure on the news media, especially with regard to the use of television images and photographs. Hamas is in a fierce political struggle with Fatah, and both factions are using the media at their command â€" the official Palestinian television and radio by Fatah, which also has its own outlets and newspapers, and Hamas’s newspapers, radio and sophisticated television channel, Al Aksa, which is modeled on Al Minar, which is run by Hezbollah.
    Each accuses the other of being infidels and in the service of outsiders â€" Fatah says Hamas serves Iran; Hamas says Fatah serves Israel and America. In addition to children’s shows urging war against Israel and the Israeli occupation, praising martyrdom and attacking Jews, Hamas television runs a news scroll underneath devoted entirely to Hamas-flavored news. The official Palestinian Authority television, hard to see now in Gaza, is only a little more balanced.
    Fatah in the West Bank has closed Hamas-affiliated media outlets and charities and prevented Hamas-supported newspapers from circulating or Hamas television from broadcasting. Equipment has been confiscated or destroyed, and six Hamas journalists have been arrested, Mr. Nounou said, and 12 more beaten. But here in Gaza, Hamas has done the same to Fatah and the Palestinian Authority-controlled media. At least eight outlets were closed, including three newspapers, and many Fatah journalists have fled.
    Ahmad Odeh, of Maan news agency, said: "This government came into power by a coup, and in Ramallah, there is an emergency government that rules by decree. There’s no democracy on either side. What do you expect?"
    Local reporters, including those working for international news agencies, have been pressured, as they used to be pressured under Fatah, but now with a degree more menace. Yet Hamas leaders say they are committed to freedom of speech, while demanding that journalists report "objectively."
    After the first Fatah rally, Mr. Nounou, the government spokesman, said in an interview that the police were ordered to leave journalists alone unless they engaged in the protest themselves. A few days later, Hamas said it would no longer work with the Palestinian journalists union that Mr. Abu El Oun leads because it was supposedly pro-Fatah, dissolved it and threatened to prosecute its leaders.
    Similarly, Hamas at first said the prayer protests were fine if peaceful, but then decided to ban them, causing further clashes. As some protesters were beaten, some more journalists were beaten and arrested, too, before being released. One policeman told reporters, according to The Associated Press, "If a single shot is on TV, you know what will happen," then drew a finger across his throat.
    Mr. Zahar said, "There have been mistakes, but they are decreasing." Mr. Nounou has been an important mediator between police and journalists and has usually secured their release. "We follow every complaint," he said. "We respect freedom of expression and even allow Fatah here to hold press conferences and demonstrations, which Hamas cannot in the West Bank."
    Under Fatah, "the rules were essentially clear," said another local journalist working for a different news agency. "Don’t attack Yasir Arafat or Muhammad Dahlan or Rashid Abu Shbak," all prominent Fatah figures, "and don’t touch the issue of corruption. That was basically all. Now, of course, it’s Abbas and a few other figures."
    But Hamas, he said, "isn’t used to criticism and doesn’t like it." While Fatah is essentially a broad, secular movement and disorganized, "Hamas is less accepting of advice or criticism, and it’s less experienced and open to the world."
    Since June, he said, Gaza is under a kind of military rule, and everyone is wary.
"People aren’t sure what the boundaries are, and Hamas tries to reassure them, but people feel a little afraid," he said. "Self-censorship is more devastating than censorship laws. And the self-censorship, especially for journalists, is more depressing and complicated than before."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:25 PM

Hamas spokesman, Tahar Al-Nunu said on 31 October that no journalist can continue working without obtaining a new press card from the information ministry. Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip on 14 June 2007, six months after its legislative election victory. Since then the Islamist party has regularly obstructed the work of some journalists. Media viewed as close to Fatah have suffered attacks. Arrests and closures of media have become the daily lot of journalists not aligned with Hamas.

“Since dissolving the journalists’ union last month, Hamas is now trying to impose official measures which could lead to serious restrictions,â€쳌 Reporters Without Borders said. “A press card is above all a tool which should facilitate media work and the coverage of official events. The Hamas decision however appears to have been prompted by political considerationsâ€쳌.

Since June 2007, the press freedom organisation has recorded at least nine assaults and 21 arrests of journalists by members of Hamas armed wing, the Executive Force.

The Hamas announcement of a ban on journalists working who are not accredited by the information ministry, under the control of the Islamist party, prompted a wave of protest within media and professional organisations on the Gaza Strip. Many of them refused to comply with the order and only Hamas-affiliated media have accepted it.

Hamas police on 6 November searched the home of Hisham Saqalah, of the online newsletter al-Rassed al-I’lami seizing his computer, his archives, mobile phone and scores of CDs. The journalist had been warned that a complaint had been made against him but not the identity of the plaintiff or their motives.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:06 PM

Hamas honeymoon ends with torture

The Guardian 26 Aug 2007

With both legs badly bruised from a vicious beating, Shaher Abu Oda can only move around with a painful shuffle. In the town of Beit Hanoun, on Palestine's Gaza strip, however, he is just one of many young men bearing limps, plaster casts, and stitches - the black and blue aftermath of an unprecedented crackdown on dissent by the strip's new rulers, the Islamist group Hamas.

Its officials snatched Mr Abu Oda off the streets two weeks ago as he was trying to find his younger brother Miqbil, himself badly beaten after club-wielding Hamas policemen broke up a wedding party. The revellers' crime had been to sing a few songs associated with the Fatah party, the rival Palestinian faction which Hamas ousted from the Gaza Strip two months ago. "They threw me in a room," said Mr Abu Oda. "From 11.30 to 3.30 in the morning, they came in every 15 minutes and beat me with sticks, fists, kicks, and a black leather crop."

As many as 50 people are thought to have been arrested in Gaza's Beit Hanoun district around the night of the wedding, and similar sweeps have taken place elsewhere in Gaza since then. The detentions and beatings appear to mark the end of a relative honeymoon period for Hamas, which seized control of Gaza after five days of battle in June.

The early days of the group's reign saw aggressive crackdowns on drug dealers, theft, and violent clans, as well as the freeing of BBC journalist Alan Johnston from the clutches of a criminal faction aligned to al-Qaeda. Such moves led to calls for Britain and Europe to open formal dialogue with Hamas, despite its commitment to the destruction of the state of Israel.

Now though, human rights groups and ordinary Gazans say Hamas is committing exactly the same crimes as its Fatah predecessors, whose corruption and brutality were one of the main reasons why support for Hamas grew. "We are receiving reports of political detentions every day," said Mahmoud Abu Rahma, of the Gaza City-based Al Mezan Centre for Human Rights. "Hamas is conducting wide sweeps and interrogations to collect information. The interrogations include harsh treatment, and in many cases, torture and beatings."

At a protest in Gaza City on Friday, Hamas gunmen broke up a demonstration by Fatah loyalists by firing on the crowd and smashing journalists' cameras. Similar treatment is often meted out in the opposite direction in the Fatah-controlled West Bank, where dozens, if not hundreds, of Hamas activists have been jailed - but since Hamas has long portrayed itself to the Palestinians as an upright alternative to decades of corrupt Fatah rule, such behaviour rankles all the more.

"Fatah arrested and tortured people too," said a senior official from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, an independent political faction. "But during Fatah's rule we could give our opinions, and say anything we wanted about the Fatah leadership. Today people are afraid of saying anything about Hamas."

At least two detainees have died in Hamas custody since July 11. In the most recent case, Waleed Abu Dalfa, 45, was arrested on suspicion of collaborating with Israel. Thirty masked militants from Hamas' armed wing, the Ezzedine al-Qassam Brigades, arrested him and his two brothers in the night. Seven days later his dead body was dumped at a Gaza City hospital. The doctor on duty reported "bruises on the hands and the legs, haematomas in the legs and signs of stranglehold on the neck."

While the Hamas crackdown has focused on its long-standing nemesis Fatah, other factions have not escaped their wrath. On August 13, Hamas broke up a peaceful protest rally that included a number of different Palestinian political groups, beating protesters with sticks and confiscating cameras from journalists. Newspapers have been banned, critical television talk shows have been pulled from the air, and a new Hamas decree prohibits demonstrations and even outdoor weddings without approval.

Even Islamic Jihad, a fellow militant group traditionally close to Hamas, has begun to turn against Gaza's new rulers. Hamas attacked an Islamic Jihad wedding on August 1, killing three people, and wounding at least eight. In an unusual public rebuke, Islamic Jihad issued a statement calling on Hamas to stop political arrests, release political prisoners, and to stop curtailing freedom of speech.

Hamas founder Mahmoud Zahar is untroubled by the rumblings of dissent: "Life is much better in Gaza than before," he said, insisting that the justice system, police, and internal security forces were undergoing total overhauls. "I don't deny there are some violations but this is not a policy. It's personal excesses … sometimes they resort to violence when they shouldn't, but it is not a policy."

He also accused Fatah activists of fomenting discord, but warned: "But we are watching their every move."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 03:27 PM

When the Palestinians accept the last set of internationally accepted borders (1923), and move out of the West Bank into Jordan ( the Arab Moslim Homeland), there will be peace in the region.

Any violence until then is due entirely to the refusal of the Palestinian Moslims to abide by those borders.