carol thatcher death threats

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:24 PM

"Daily Mail Reader"
Private Eye reader, surely - he's pulling our string!!!!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 09:48 AM

"If she had called the black French tennis player a 'frog' or a 'cheese eater', would that have been rascist?"

No, because she would have been referring to nationality, not race.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 08:15 AM

"some arsehole in a woolie jumper with unwashed hair"

What exactly do you have against farmers?

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 07:32 AM

"some arsehole in a woolie jumper with unwashed hair tells me to do so."

Back to dangleberries again.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:46 AM

I think DM reader obviously needs redirecting to that thread about "Isn't it bloody brilliant that all these illegal immigrants are flooding into the country, completely bumming off the state and destryoying our English culture to boot!! Yay, down with the English (or anyone who isn't a bit brown-skinned), we hate our own cultural traditions, and we want Muslims or Jewish people or other 'ethnic' types to rule the whole world, 'cos that'd be totally fab!" Rather than this one which is actually about a journo calling a tennis playing a gollywog... ;-)

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Gedpipes
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:33 AM

DMR Thats the spirit. Well done! and keep that upper lip stiff.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Daily Mail reader
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 05:05 AM

I am British, I am proud to be British, if someone from another country decides to come live in m country I expect them to respect me and my traditions. If they arrive and decide to live off my tax (which many do) I will speak out. If they get involved in serious crime I will again speak out. It they accept the British way of life and work for a living and keep their head down, well and good. If they decide to turn my country into the land they left and introduce their traditions,faith and crime I will not sit back and keep my bloody mouth shut because some arsehole in a woolie jumper with unwashed hair tells me to do so.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:51 AM

If she had called the black French tennis player a 'frog' or a 'cheese eater', would that have been rascist? Are images of rotund French men in striped jumpers, berets, string of onions etc rascist?
Or just a bit of harmless fun in context.
Incidentally it's a criminal offence (apart from being futile) to tell a speed camera to f--- off in the UK. That's the way free speech is going.
Doc John

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 03:47 AM

"She did not "think" it "amusing to say that a black tennis player looks like a golliwog" did she?? She referred to a black French tennis player the one with the hair that looks like a golliwog."

Hmmm . . . so you're suggesting what she actually meant his hair resembled some particularly intricate, impressive and inappropriate display of barnet topiary?

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:09 AM

"Listen, see if you can understand this.

She thought it was amusing to say that a black tennis player looks like a gollywog.

Mutiple choice; do you think she was,"

One point Lox, before you start asking multi-choice questions, a minor one I know but it is important to the discussion to actually inform the person you are asking the question of what was actually said.

She did not "think" it "amusing to say that a black tennis player looks like a golliwog" did she?? She referred to a black French tennis player the one with the hair that looks like a golliwog.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: kendall
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 07:38 PM

I was raised with a modicum of manners. When George Washington was a young man he wrote a book of manners. They were very important in his day.
The meaning of manners is simple: Doing what makes others feel comfortable. I have no need to call attention to myself, like a 4 year old, by spouting racial slurs, using profanity in public or calling women by degrading nasty names such as John McWar did.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lox
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:42 PM

I'm glad you don't follow sheep ...

... I bet you gracefully accept their rejection of your advances.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 03:20 PM

I can and do speak whatever why I please Mr.C. No one tells me how to think, speak or act. I don't follow sheep and if I don't like something I will say it. All this silly talk about considering feelings of "touchy" people is a load of cobblers. It would appear people use such crap to promote leftwing politics in our country. It is a sad place since my growing up days. May I add, I support Carol and consider her to have done no wrong.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:56 PM

And that's the very same *false* presumption (that it's obvious and reasonable that everyone else must think and speak like she does), that has bit C Thatch on the bum.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:06 PM

"for speaking in a manner you and I do on a daily basis. "
You may do pal - only bigots do in my experience.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:03 PM

Kendall, that is all well and good. Dealing with the value of current market share prices doesn't relate to the current thread. The thread looks at the fact that Carol received a death threat for speaking in a manner you and I do on a daily basis.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: kendall
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:50 PM

There is, and should be a limit to free speech. Our supreme court ruled many years ago that yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater is not free speech.
Neither is yelling obscenities in public.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:15 PM

her brother is a villan

Now then... even as a Saddler by birth I wouldn't wish that fate on Aston Villa...

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 11:37 AM

oi! My new guitar case, strap and capo are from Dangleberries Music

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 11:33 AM

"anyone who doesn't think so can go and furtle with their dangleberries!"

Lol! Thanks for that one Sugarfoot...

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Big Andy
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 11:24 AM

well there's one here who wont piss for a week, just so i can let the lot go on her mother's grave. Nothing personal Carol

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 11:16 AM

"well I have an answer to get a life life is tough get used to it"

Goddammit, you're right Goatfell - I'm with you on this one. Sod the lot of them. Speak your mind without fear and hang their accursed pompousness and self-righteous flam and flatulence!

I'm gonna do it, I am . . . here goes . . . I'm going to say it . . .

Carol Thatcher says racist things and her brother is a villan (sorry Villan!) and her mother is an old bag and anyone who doesn't think so can go and furtle with their dangleberries!

My god that's better . . . cathartic or what? Now that's what I call adequate debating skills.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: goatfell
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 10:53 AM

Political correctness there is too much in this country where you are not allowed to speak your mind just in case you upset someone well I have an answer to get a life life is tough get used to it

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:24 AM

"Certainly an oxymoron. "
You got that half right.
"and allow them to find jobs here"
As Police Constables maybe?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: goatfell
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 07:02 AM

I agree to a point with Dail mail reader I agree that there is too much PC in this country but we should welcome vistors to our shores and allow them to find jobs here

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 06:49 AM

Certainly an oxymoron.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 06:33 AM

Is "Daily Mail Reader" a deliberate pastiche!?

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 06:19 AM

Who let the Daily Mail reader in?

Hmmm, Daily Mail reader - can they read?

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:55 AM

There, now look what you've done - now she's joined the argument - she'll get her mother started next - then the police - then she'll dig up Pinochet and his mates - and then where will we be????
Can't we just stick to talking about Bob Dylan???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Daily Mail reader
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:13 AM

We will not put up with mediocrity and we've had it for too long. The British people would not put up with this silly PC. This country has had enough, we've not had good leadership. The Labour party may bow it's head to every Tom,Dick and Harry landing on our shores but I dam well won't. I'm worried about this country falling between the cracks because we've got a PM who's sort of brain dead and we got dope smoking old hippies now calling themselves "pressure groups" to cuddle these people arriving in "feeding bowl Britain" I am sick of those politely tip-toeing around the problem.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 03:39 AM

"Not irritated that a discussion is going on, just irritated that so many threads are hi-jacked by people with agendas, and with seemingly inadequate debating skills."

Don't we all have agendas? Don't well all have a vested interest in the matters we discuss here (even those inarticulate and uneducated souls who are to crap to debate properly - whatever that means)?

I am a licence payer to a public service broadcaster, so if someone who is receiving remuneration from the BBC says something inappropriate, I'll comment on them as I see fit. I am a tax payer, so seeing as my money goes supporting the Monarchy which they accept, despite the fact I would much rather it didn't, I have a right to air my view on her and her family how I see fit. I was actively involved in Tory party politics as a Young Conservative and understand the machinations of the Senior Association at the time of Thatcher (around the time of the People's March for jobs) and therefore have some right to comment as I see fit. In fact, I will comment on any aspect of our life, culture or society, local to global, as I see fit.

We have a history a robust, vigourous and sometimes heated debate in this country which seems to be gradually being eroded into some sort tepid slimepool of mediocre discussion. It saddens and depresses me to see some of the responses to these debates ("stop calling him/her names! They're not here to defend themselves" etc etc) as if this absolves these people of some responsibilty to they way they behave at our expense and when beamed into our homes; it seems we're losing sight of the fact as a nation our iconoclasm and recalcitrance are some of our strongest traits, and expressing these feelings is becoming increasingly frowned on in this society and in this forum. This would be understandable were there a cultural reason for this; I think the Americans are very different in this respect in that they come across as less cynical of authority and celebrity (they are more positive towards success as a culture than we are to be sure), but the truth is in this country we are becoming less likely to speak out vehemently on issues criticising public figures that ever before, and that's not a good thing.

In the end, many people seem to forget these debates are not personal either and although we all loose our rag occasionally and type something we later regret, what the heck - simply admit you were wrong.

So I think Carol Thatcher is an unthinking, boorish lout and her mother is a contemptible old harridan who disgraced our country and was instrumental in destroying the feeling we all belong to the same society.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lox
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 06:39 PM

For a history of "the golliwog" look
here.

folk le

Please note the six paragraphs that come before the one you referred to and take care to pay attention to the Enid Blyton and Agatha Christie references.

And add to the whole picture the fact that the term "Gollywog" has been used deliberately as a term of abuse.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lox
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 06:00 PM

To modify an earlier comment,

Ake, you are not personally beneath contempt, but your comments on this thread are.

More so because I am surprised by them, having read comments from you on other issues that have been interesting and enlightening.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 05:59 PM

"Racist remarks are wrong"
No; one and one equals three is wrong.
Racist remarks are racist, demeaning, arrogant, mindless, inhuman and potentially lethal - ask Stephen Lawrence's parents.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lox
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 05:55 PM

Folk le

Thanks for your post.

I made the following point in a PM to another catter with an equally enquiring mind.

"I do believe in drawing clear distinctions though, and characters like the golliwog are caricatures of racial stereotypes as opposed to individual characteristics.

That is how they can be defined as racist.

Just as discriminating on grounds of race as opposed to other more legitimate grounds is considered racial discrimination.

The humour value in racial caricatures is racist humour as it hones in purely on racial characteristics.

Big lips, fuzzy hair, white teeth, white eyes ... etc ...

There is a distinct lack of individual characteristics, as these are unimportant. All blacks are the same - they don't have individual characteristics and the dolls therefore don't need to caricature them to be funny.

Piccaninies, gollywogs etc are to black people what nazi propaganda films are to jewish people - as funny as a kick in the teeth and representative of nothing more than contempt and derision for black people.

I hope that helps you to understand why there is so much anger towards carol thatcher."

The Gollywog is just one of the many forms of the same caricature of black people.



On a seperate tack, Here is an interesting link.

Blue clicky

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: folk1e
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 04:50 PM

"The Upton Golliwogg was adventurous and sometimes silly, but, in the main, gallant and "lovable," albeit, unsightly." .... Quote from the Jim Crow book.

So the race hate figure of history started here .... Lovable, Gallant ..... how times change!
Thanks Lox .... now that I am informed I can say that, as racist comments go it is hardly the worst, is it? As per usual a phrase has evolved into something different for each person hearing (or saying) it.
So if the meaning of the phrase is determined by the hearer it doesn't matter what you mean to say, only what I want to hear?

If you wish to be literal then I am a racist! I have expectations of people that are dependant of their race, so what else can you call it? It does not mean that I would treat anybody differently, but that I would expect certain differences to be forthcoming! My expectations are on the whole based on my encounters with people of different races. I think it is only fair to say that I am also classist! This would probably be better understood by those on the eastern side of the pond! I would expect different attitudes and actions from people dependant on their social and financial background ...... and I think many of you do too!

If you don't believe me just think what the following names mean to you :- Gypsy, Irish, Sicilian, Scot, Tyke, Southerner, Trailer Trash, Ivy league, .... need I go on?
I suspect that some of you may have stronger opinions on some of those groups than me, but we do have opinions (and you will note that I have not said that any of those opinions are bad)!

We are all different I think it is sad that we can't, if not celebrate, then accept our differences in a positive light.
Jo Brand getting "upset" about a golliwogg comment is about as plausible as Marget Thatcher having a conscience ....... both are theoretically possible ................

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 04:06 PM

Did someone mention Azizi? :0)

Here's her fabulous Myspace page...and check out this month's videos, which she moves over to her blogs, month by month. The Drakensberg Choir one is just wonderful, (note the rainbow skin colours, great to see!) as are all the others. Check out the two little guys with their drums..Absolute magic! :0)

Azizi's 'Cocojams' myspace page

And now....I'll leave you all to continue the rantings.. ;0)

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 04:05 PM

Address to the Unco Guid and the Rigidly Righteous.
Robert Burns.
   

My Son, these maxims make a rule,
An' lump them aye thegither;
The Rigid Righteous is a fool,
The Rigid Wise anither:
The cleanest corn that ere was dight
May hae some pyles o' caff in;
So ne'er a fellow creature slight
For random fits o' daffin.



O ye wha are sae guid yoursel',
Sae pious and sae holy,
Ye've nought to do but mark and tell
Your neibours' fauts and folly!
Whase life is like a weel-gaun mill,
Supplied wi' store o' water;
The heapèd happer's ebbing still,
An' still the clap plays clatter.

Hear me, ye venerable core,
As counsel for poor mortals
That frequent pass douce Wisdom's door
For glaikit Folly's portals:
I, for their thoughtless, careless sakes,
Would here propone defences--
Their donsie tricks, their black mistakes,
Their failings and mischances.

Ye see your state wi' theirs compared,
And shudder at the niffer;
But cast a moment's fair regard,
What makes the mighty differ?
Discount what scant occassion gave,
That purity ye pride in;
And (what's aft mair than a' the lave)
Your better art o' hidin.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: meself
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 03:56 PM

People, please stop bandying the name of a certain member about; it can only cause her embarrassment, if not distress.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 03:07 PM

Thanks Rosie (see - I was still lurking!) :-)

Not irritated that a discussion is going on, just irritated that so many threads are hi-jacked by people with agendas, and with seemingly inadequate debating skills.

Interminably challenging others to somehow draw lines in the sand, or ranting on about this or that celebrity, or this or that Royal, or in this case CT, being a fuckwit (yep, I already knew what it meant - Terry Fuckwit is my wife's pet-name for me!), slagging off her mother (who, had she been of a different political stamp, had the strength and courage to be perhaps our greatest-ever PM, instead of the worst), posting abusive stuff regarding the parentage of people who can't answer for themselves, or abusing people who don't share someone else's personal opinions, is not a discussion or a debate. And, sadly, it seems to be becoming something of an epidemic, particularly amongst the UK membership.

Thanks again for your response. It's a pity that tone of voice, and facial expressions, are pretty much impossible to convey in print. But I'll try...    :-)

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 03:00 PM

Oh so that wasn't your final word then ake?

Listen, see if you can understand this.

She thought it was amusing to say that a black tennis player looks like a gollywog.

Mutiple choice; do you think she was,

a) right
b) wrong
c) don't care

If c) then whats your problem? why are you bothering to post?



Now here's the real interesting point.


You posted further back "just wait till the yanks wake up". You referred to Azizi.

Why?

Later you commented that you don't need to be lectured by Azizi and others.

I haven't seen any evidence in this thread of Azizi lecturing you.


So again, why have you referred to her?


looks like you're picking a fight with somebody because ... they are black?


You've busted yourself good and proper.

You have deliberately singled someone out based on their race to serve your own purposes, in the process potentially humiliating them.

Bit like Carol Thatcher.

Ake you are beneath contempt.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Will
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 02:41 PM

Backward by name, backward by nature.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM

Apologies Backwoodsman, the Azizi reference was in response to another poster. I didn't make that clear in my post.

I'm sure some threads on fora such as these, become tiresome and repetitious to many of us, and yet they still remain potentially interesting ground for debating and discussing thoughts on matters relevent to us all.

As a relative newcomer to Mudcat, I'm still interested in reading and responding to some of those issues.

My response to your two somewhat irritated posts that this debate is even going on, was not unpleasantly intended. I'm almost always wearing a wry smile when I post something which may be read as a little challenging in tone.. I should use emoticons more frequently to illustrate this.

Goodnight to you too.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM

Just had to come back to say ....Backwoodsman 12:17 post...I'm with you!!

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 02:22 PM

Rosie, I didn't make any kind of "silly provocative jibe directed at Azizi". Read again. No mention of Azizi. Why would I seek to insult someone whom I hold in very high esteem?

And what I'm trying to say, Spleen and Rosie, is that this thread, like the 'Folk Awards' thread before it (and many others, I daresay) has ceased to be a discussion. It's simply certain people with entrenched opinions going round and round and round, ramming those opinions down each others' (and everyone else's) throats and making wholly unreasonable demands that we all make declarations of what statements we do or don't consider racist. And it's getting nastier and nastier, just like the 'Folk Awards' thread.

The crazy thing is that most people (me included - I've said it twice) agree that CT's a waste of space and certainly not worth our licence-fee, and that she was absolutely wrong to say what she did, but banging away over and over does not constitute a discussion. And various people getting nasty isn't going to help. It's unnecessary, and it's ruining what should be a good discussion on a fine forum. That's my opinion. Like every other member, I'm entitled.   

Now I'll take your advice Rosie (although I don't believe it was well-meant, and neither do I care). Night-night.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 01:47 PM

And I wonder why Backwoodsman doesn't take his own advice...?
Lot's of other threads to post to.

If you don't like a thread, don't read it, and don't continue to post there. Pretty simple really.
But don't hypocritically demand or expect that other people do, what you refuse to do yourself.

And I really don't know why a silly provocative jibe directed at Azizi was required, she hasn't posted here. She may not even be aware of this thread. She is however one of the few posters onlist who might be qualified and well informed enough to speak intelligently on some of the associated issues.

Unfortunately rude personal comments like that, are not likely to encourage her to want to engage in any kind of discussion. Which I guess from the censorious tone of some "I don't want all you people discussing this subject any more!" comments here, may be thought as some kind of playground victory.

IMO Carol Thatcher is a bigoted, racist fuckwit. An opinion I am content to repeat as frequently as it pleases me. If you dislike other people expressing their personal opinions, in a legitimate debate on a public forum like this, then it might be advisible to not bother 'contributing' to it yourself and thereby helping to keep it going...

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:19 PM

Backwoodsman, what exactly is it you're trying to say? ;-)

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:17 PM

"Racist remarks are wrong"

Jim lad, what don't you understand about those four words?

Many have said, on this thread and others, that racism is intolerable. It's not necessary for each and every member of Mudcat to make a public statement detailing exactly which expressions they believe are intolerable just because you wish it to be so. It's a matter for each individual's conscience, and it only becomes an issue for the public domain if and when an individual transgresses the law of the land. It may be your personal cause celebre, and good luck, but we don't all have to state our beliefs in every minute detail just to give you a warm-fuzzy. We are still entitled to our privacy. 1984 came and went, and there are still no Thought Police.

So, all together now........

Racism is wrong.
Death threats are wrong.
Abuse of one human being by another, for whatever reason, is wrong.
Carol Thatcher is a snotty, spoilt, overbearing public-schoolgirl with a nasty gob and no obvious saving graces.

Now FFS, move on.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:10 PM

Sorry Backwoodsman.....final word from me.

Would the brave opponents of racist comments about hairstyles, uttered by a woman who is obviously not the sharpest tool in the box, like to go and find some real racists to fight.
You certainly wont find them on this forum, no matter how much you try to provoke!

For myself, as a Communist Party member for many years, I've participated in demos where we had to face bricks bottles and boots in support of the AFL, and shed real blood fighting real racists.

So you may appreciate that I need no lectures from Lox,Rosie, or Azizi, on racism and how to fight it.
This particular issue is bullshit hyped by the media because it's a good story.

Get a life or get out on the fuckin' streets.....Ake

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:50 AM

I've always believed racists, be they the ones that rove in packs looking for victims, those who shoot their mouths off in pubs among fellow non-thinkers, those who exploit their positions of authority and celebrité to spout their bile (whether they believe any of us unimportant outsiders are listening or not) and those bottle-less apologists closet dwellers who come to the defence of their particular 'superstar' - to be a somewhat spineless hypocritical breed.
The fact that nobody has been prepared to say where, or even, if a line should be drawn in abusing others, whether it is aimed at race, religion, colour, gender, or just differece, has done much to confirm that opinion - thanks for that!
Jim Carroll