Folk Against Fascism

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:28 AM

If you want to see what a British fascist looked like go to "google images" and type in the name of the founding leader of the British National Party,John Tyndall. You can see him there dressed in full nazi uniform posing in front of a swastika flag while a photograph of Adolph Hitler looks down from above.

His successor ,Nick Griffin,can also be seen on google images.He is there in front of a National Front banner wearing his white power Tshirt.He looks more porky these days.

When a BNP electioneering squad were out in force in my home town a few weeks ago they were all dressed up in their shiny suits.They really didn't like it when photocopies of Tyndall in his nazi getup were produced. After being " megaphoned " for an hour by anti fascists they obviously sent for reinforcements because a group of boneheads came waddling down the street.One was covered in enormous swastika tattoos   including one on top of his shaven head. Scary! He was obviously not used in any of the BNP publicity material.

Its not easy but they do have to confronted about their nazi past and their nazi present.
ifor

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM

In a Venn Diagram, Fascism and racism can intersect but not always.

Any authoritarian governance is probably associated with some form of racism.
It doesn't matter what you label it.

As I understand the BNP, it is an authoritarian "my way or the highway" group and
must as a result maintain a certain prejudice and xenophobia.

Fascism is alive and well here in the US. It is not a stated official policy of the government but corporate takeover of our political system is evident. For this reason, ample criticism
has to be expressed by Americans who take our Bill of Rights and Constitution seriously.
We have to deplore any group that favors a fascistic point of view including the BNP.
They should not be morally defended in any way.

Free speech is their right as long as it doesn't cross the line. My experience with fascistic right-wing groups is that they invariably cross the line into violence. At this point as far as I'm concerned, this abrogates their right to free speech.

Frank

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:44 AM

my point is:that most ,countrydances/ceilidhs that people dance to in England ,contain all these dances and some of them are from the England Ireland Scotland Wales .
secondly,that the origins of the dances should not be important when dancing,people, should be dancing for pleasure.
that is why I dont care a toss, when I am dancing a polka [that it comes from middle europe].
but of course it might concern BNP MEMBERS ,presumably they think its ok to dance hornpipes but not polkas,how ridiculous.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM

For myself, I think the term is appropriate, as the issues implied go beyond racism alone.

And this from Wiki makes the direct relationship between the BNP & fascism more clear: "The current use of the name British National Party is its fourth appearance in British politics. The original BNP emerged during World War II when a handful of former members of the British Union of Fascists took on the name."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM

"fascism" is now little more than a generalised term of abuse. It's original sense was essentially right-wing, ultra-nationalist, corporatist, authoritarian governance. Unsurprisingly, racism was often part of the package, in practice. (It's not stretching things too much to regard Franco's attitude to the Catalans as essentially racist, BTW). On the other hand, authoritarian left-wing states are just as capable of being racist (complete your own list...). So let's not confuse the two.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:14 AM

Remember the next time you go and dance to a polka played on a melodeon and hammered dulcimer that NONE of those things came from 'here' originally

was answered by

the English concertina is English,The Hornpipe,Reel and Jig,are generally considered to be from these islands

Well yes, but that's a complete non sequitur! Your point is?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:52 AM

Correction-
In my 11 Jun 09 - 07:36 AM post I wondered if romany man meant " "im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is not against fascism".

**

Also, I wasn't suggesting that the "Folk Against Fascism" name be "Folk Against Racism". My point was (is) that the group should be clear what we are for. I would assume that some things are core, but that every FaF friend (member) may not agree with other things that are part of British traditional folk culture that other friends (members) list that they are in favor of.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:51 AM

Fascism ,is[imo] easily defined,it involves IN PRACTICAL TERMS [as it has been practised,by Mussolini and Hitler] the persecution of people because of their race colour and creed,so one of its principles as it has been practised is racism.
yes ,this includes Mussolini.
Mussolini in his earlier years appeared not be anti semitic,but in his later years changed his policy,and for whatever reasons used racism to maintain himself in power.
however, Folk against Racism,might have been a better title,just in case some pedant,comes along and argues that Franco[Fascist]or Duffy[Blueshirt] was not racist.
However the situation is further complicated,Franco was supported by other fascist /nazis states.,as he accepted their support,does it not follow that he accepted their racist attitudes?
anyway well done,to all the people who have helped set up folk against fascism.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:30 AM

The whole Kick Racism Out (of football) has been succesful in league football. I can confirm that racist chants etc are also now never heard at Sincil Bank (Lincoln City).

I haven't been to an England game for more than 10 years but the last one I was at was scary. Lots of anti-Irish chants.

At Lincoln, the 3 of us who turn up are now impeccably behaved. (I always was, it was the other 2). Thought I better make this joke before someone else did.



I think the issues were different for football in that it was kicking out people/ behaviours who had already infiltrated the game...... I don't perceive that the BNP has a strong grip of Folk Music yet. It's therefore looking at how to prevent it (or at least put out the ember before the fire catches) rather than kick it out.

Might be something we can learn from the football experience though.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:26 AM

Azizi:
Yes, of course we're all against fascism, but the reason why the folk music community in particular is upset is because the BNP have been exploiting British Folk music (in particular its "Britishness") as an emblem of nationalism and selling compilations of their recordings to raise funds. Now folk musicians and singers are in danger of being tarred with the same racist brush, so it is very much a fight "against" the BNP because we are under attack. Imagine if you were a singer (maybe you are) and you found your music was being sold to raise funds for a racist organisation...

As for "Folk against Fascism" vs. "Folk Against Racism", it's a more alliterative and hence memorable name, and it is relevant to the BNP. For me it's also a plus point that it potentially covers some of the invasions of personal privacy and freedom perpetrated by the existing government, with its talk of ID cards and having all our internet activity monitored.

Perhaps we could have called it "folk for freedom" but I don't think anyone would take any notice if we did...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:14 AM

Haven't yet decided whether this fact shows that they have been unsuccesful in the country's football gorunds so they are trying elsewhere, in which case it is an indicator that we should feel reassured by it, or whether it suggests genuine infiltration into the middle classes.

As a season ticket holder at Sheffield's finest football club (I refer to United of course) I am very aware of the efforts my club has made to discourage racism (especially chanting) and it is now totally unaceptable at Bramall Lane to make references to the colour of a player's skin.

So we don't hear it. This didn't arise by accident but by extremely hard work by FURD (Football Unites, Racism Divides). http://www.furd.org/ will show you some of their work.

It has been a very successful organisation.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:38 AM

Ruth/lox,
It is quite true that in the seventies the NF sought to recruit members from football supporters since "they would welcome robust young men into their ranks". However it must be stressed that over the ensuing years the football clubs themselves have worked very hard to combat the stigma, especially the violence and racism, which attached its self to the game.Most clubs that I know of have a definite policy against racisim(Kick Out Racism) and any form of racist chanting is punishable by expulsion from the ground and membership revoked. A lot of clubs openly declare this on their tickets.
"Alternatively, now that football stadia have become the preserve of the middle classes and the real fans watch their games in pubs cos they can't afford tickets". I saw my team, Nottingham Forest, on television twice last season so I would suggest that since football is not the sole property of the big four Premiership sides that the real fans still go to the grounds (and if being middle class means being continually on the bones of ones arse then that must be my status; I'll remember that when I clock in at the factory in the morning)
It was very encouraging to see the anti - BNP leaflets being haded out at our last home match v Southampton.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:36 AM

>i>I think it might be worthwhile determining what attracts groups like the BNP to British Folk. Some of these issues have come up on other threads, and it might be worthwhile taking a fresh more integrated look at some of those issues, in relation to this thread?
-Crow Sister, 11 Jun 09 - 05:22 AM

I find your comments to be very interesting, Crow Sister and believe that it is important to know what attracts the BNP to folk. And it seems to me that a corollary question is "Should every thing that is considered to be traditional British culture or which has been grafted onto traditional British culture be supported and efforts made to retain those things? I'm specifically talking about the songs with the "N" word (which certainly wouldn't be publicly sung nowadays in my country, the USA)? But I'm certain that there are other perhaps more controversial customs that could (should?) also be considered in that category of indices of traditional British culture that could be reviewed in this regard.

**

I aslo find romany man's 10 Jun 09 - 07:47 PM entire post interesting. But in particular I'd like to to focus on this point he raised "what next folk against commies, or against rock and roll , im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is against fascism..."

(I'm wondering if he meant) "im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is against fascism)

But the point that I want to make is that it seems to me that Folk Against Fascism should be clear on and should clearly articulate what it (we) are in favor of. I think our efforts would be weakened if we are only seen as being against something-and that "something" is a political system that a lot of "folks" (with "folk" here meaning people) can't easily define. Furthermore, it seems to me that we are missing a wider audience and membership/supporters if the "folk" in "Folk Against Fascism" is only narrowly defined as "folk musicians and folk vocalists and folk dancers (such as morris dancers)".

To echo what Peace said in one of his posts to this thread, I'm not folk musicians and folk vocalists and folk dancers (such as morris dancers). But I am a folk (a person). I understand that FaF focuses on Britain and the British hate group, the BNP. But I'd like to think that people from outside of Britain with our "own" hate groups and hate crimes have some role in the FaF-and maybe we are sometimes the gadfly that pushes you to widen your focus and consider the wider world of racism/hate/fascism.

I guess I should have said that "maybe my role is a gadfly". But gadflies can be lovable sometime.

:o)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:56 AM

I just looked at Anahata's site, that link page is just right.

I'd add something very similar to mine, but a question. My involvement is mostly with Scottish music, and I haven't seen any sign of the BNP trying to exploit that. (Near-fascist Scottish organizations like Siol nan Gaidheal have been trying for years and got nowhere in particular - but the BNP would have to take them on before trying to move in on the Scottish folk scene). Anyone know what they're doing up here?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:22 AM

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious - PM
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:40 AM

Maybe it should have been called Folk Against Racism, but that sounds like a schism with Rock Against Racism which would have been silly. The logo they've got based on Woody's guitar ties in very nicely. I don't think it helps to nitpick about definitions.

About Facebook v. MySpace. MySpace is a terrific marketing tool, a free place for putting music and biogs etc into the public realm, the floor spots of the web. Facebook is much more used for social networking, and there are lots more people who don't have music to promote than do so naturally it will have more users.

Re discussion above about English music, I think it's summed up quite nicely by a quote on the FAF Wall which says "Remember the next time you go and dance to a polka played on a melodeon and hammered dulcimer that NONE of those things came from 'here' originally, they've just been naturalised a bit longer than most . ."
I agree with this sentiment,however it is not accurate,the English concertina is English,The Hornpipe,Reel and Jig,are generally considered to be from these islands[scotland ,england ireland wales]polkas originated in middle europe[butIrish polkas have evolved to something different.]
yes ,correct about Polkas and mazurkas,but not other dances.
still the most important thing is not to be concerned about origins ,but to enjoy the dancing.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:14 AM

Expanding this list outside of Britain, Folk singers sang songs during the civil rights movement in the USA.

It might be a good idea to include such a listing on the FaceBook/MySpace pages or at least on the upcoming Folk Against Fascism website.

What else can be added to this list?

Mikis Theodorakis (and a lot of other Greek musicians) opposing the Greek colonels

Victor Jara, Inti-Illimani and a whole bunch of other Chilean musicians opposing Pinochet

Zulfu Livaneli, Selda Bagcan, Melike Demirag and a whole bunch of other Turkish folkies opposing fascism around the time of the 1980 coup

You'd be hard put to find a country with a significant fascist movement that didn't have folk musicians in the front line fighting it.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:06 AM

"Another thing that strikes me, is the possible parallels with Nazi appropriation of German folk music. One wonders to what extent current BNP tactics are knowingly echoing the Nazi example? Or is this simply another example of universal Nationalist political tactics?"

I find the BNP fascination with 'British culture' alarming because they are echoing nazi ideology in a way that even the National Front never did. The nazis believed that national culture was a product of genetic determination, and it was for this reason that they embraced German folklore. to them, it was pure and it was Aryan and, once cleansed of degenerate influences, it was both symbol and affirmation of Aryan superiority. The product of the master race, no less.

I think the BNP's assertion of British folklore (and various other symbols of 'Britishness') shows that they are thinking along similar lines. I think they are proposing a Britain purged of all alien influences. I think they are planning a programme of ethnic cleansing, the intensity of which has not been seen since the days of the holocaust.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:03 AM

"But it's interesting that whereas the National Front, as thugs and bully boys, targeted the national game (so much so that football has still not overcome the racist taint of 20-30 years ago) the new-look BNP, with their softly-softly approach, are targeting something that is much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture."

Interesting point.

Haven't yet decided whether this fact shows that they have been unsuccesful in the country's football gorunds so they are trying elsewhere, in which case it is an indicator that we should feel reassured by it, or whether it suggests genuine infiltration into the middle classes.

Lets remember that the number of BNP voters did not increase, so perhaps we can deduce that the footbal stadium campaign has been unsuccesful.

Alternatively, now that football stadia have become the preserve of the middle classes and the real fans watch their games in pubs cos they can't afford tickets, maybe the campaign has followed them into the pubs - and is just giving itself a soundtrack and inventing an new found identity with a new found air of respectability ...

... Great to see that when it matters, the overwhelming majority of Brits are disgusted at the idea of Griffin in office.

He won't last more than 1 term.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:59 AM

"Before anyone has the eggs at the ready, I should probably qualify one of my statements above: "

Phew, you had me reaching for the nearest chicken, there. LOL!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:40 AM

Maybe it should have been called Folk Against Racism, but that sounds like a schism with Rock Against Racism which would have been silly. The logo they've got based on Woody's guitar ties in very nicely. I don't think it helps to nitpick about definitions.

About Facebook v. MySpace. MySpace is a terrific marketing tool, a free place for putting music and biogs etc into the public realm, the floor spots of the web. Facebook is much more used for social networking, and there are lots more people who don't have music to promote than do so naturally it will have more users.

Re discussion above about English music, I think it's summed up quite nicely by a quote on the FAF Wall which says "Remember the next time you go and dance to a polka played on a melodeon and hammered dulcimer that NONE of those things came from 'here' originally, they've just been naturalised a bit longer than most . ."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:38 AM

Before anyone has the eggs at the ready, I should probably qualify one of my statements above:

"targeting something that is much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture."

should read

"targeting something that is PERCEIVED as much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture."

Referring to morris, maypole, village greens etc.

And this is all about the perceptions of the wider public, not what we as folkies may or may not feel is true.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:34 AM

I think the main thing is that they're national.


But it's interesting that whereas the National Front, as thugs and bully boys, targeted the national game (so much so that football has still not overcome the racist taint of 20-30 years ago) the new-look BNP, with their softly-softly approach, are targeting something that is much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture.

It's all about appropriating these things seen as primarily English, and making them a part of their very narrow and exclusive definition of identity.

I would hate to think of folk culture, 30 years from now, suffering under the taint of racism in the way that football still does, because we weren't vigilant enough until it was too late.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:22 AM

The issues ultimately raised by this thread are going to be numerous, but in forging any approaches to begin to attempt to counter what has been ocurring regards the appropriation of British folk music and customs, I think it might be worthwhile determining what attracts groups like the BNP to British Folk. Some of these issues have come up on other threads, and it might be worthwhile taking a fresh more integrated look at some of those issues, in relation to this thread?

For example: One thing that strikes me from memory, was a story (I can't recall the poster) discussing a bunch of skinheads at a folk gathering rather enthusiastically singing songs containing the 'N' word.

Another thing that strikes me, is the possible parallels with Nazi appropriation of German folk music. One wonders to what extent current BNP tactics are knowingly echoing the Nazi example? Or is this simply another example of universal Nationalist political tactics?

And a further thing which immediately comes to mind, is of course the somewhat exclusively middle-England nature of attendees of folk clubs. Not a criticism of the British folk scene, merely a reference to prior discussions.

I'm sure there are other things which make British folk highly attractive as a tool for nationalist and fascist propaganda, I just wanted to throw open discussion about what they might be?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:17 AM

I have a particular fondness

Particuular, not exclusive. My own repertoire includes Irish, Scottish, French, Scandinavian and Italian tunes; because I like them.

This is an aesthetic/artistic statement, not a political one.

OK?

Thanks for the link Ruth. Dogan has played at the club several times in Too Many Strings and as a duo with Matt Quinn. He is on record as saying something like "I think British traditional music is wonderful and I want everybody to know about it. If it takes a Turk to tell them, so be it."

Bryan Creer

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:51 AM

Thanks, MartinRyan.

That meaning of "To cock a snook" is somewhat disappointing. But it is what it is.

;o)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:48 AM

On a serious note, it occurs to me that it's usually acceptable for people who know each other well to engage in light hearted play on words about the other person's non-standard name and other cultural things (such as some posts on this thread that Bruce [Peace] and David el Gnomo 's wrote that refer to George [Yorgos Papavgeris]'s name.*

But that same play on words would likely not be acceptable among people who don't know each other well.

I mention this because I think that one of the goals of the Folk Against Fascism website, Facebook page, and MySpace page would be to foster greater understanding among people of different backgrounds. Which doesn't mean that I think there should be a "social etiquette among people of different backgrounds" page. But some features that help populations of people know each other better may do a lot to reduce the pull of fascism.

* I mentioned Bruce's name "Peace" because people who might visit this thread from Internet search engines might not know who the heck "Bruce" is. And I'm presuming that George didn't take any offense to Bruce's and Dave's remarks because I (kinda) know them through their postings on Mudcat. t also seems to me that George's 10 Jun 09 - 10:00 PM shows that he accepted these play on words about his name in the spirit that they were given. However, the point I'm trying to make is that people who don't know each other can take offense and be offensive when joking about different personal names and about words from other languages.

Also I want to say that I think that Bruce's 11 Jun 09 - 12:13 AM comment and David el Gnomo 's 10 Jun 09 - 07:00 PM and any comment about George's name and the Greek word for "Peace" (Irene) were probably posted to add some lightheartedness to a very serious thread as was the intent of my 11 Jun 09 - 04:15 AM post).

I think these serious, emotionally gut wrenching discussions need a careful, sensitive light touch some times- or speaking for myself-I know that I need a careful, light touch sometime when I read these "heavy duty" threads. (Why did that phrasing about careful, sensitive touch cause my mind to go someplace else? Never mind that.)

:o)

Moving right along, thanks Bruce, and George, and Dave and any other play on word-er that i failed to mention.

Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:44 AM

plenty of people are joining, there were 6 members when i joined, now theres over 1000!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:43 AM

Azizi

To cock a snook means to show derision. Origin debatable!

Regards

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:15 AM

I don't think Greg is asking us to book acts just to cock a snook.
-David el Gnomo


"Cock a snook?"

Does that mean what I think it means?



Never mind. I don't really need to know.


But on second thought...??

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:04 AM

Personally, I don't think anyone should book anyhting except really good music.

Take this lot - they make really good music:

Dogan and the Deerhunters

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 03:20 AM

"Actually, I don't think it is. I don't think they set out to instruct people on what sort of music they should play or promote."

Fair enough Snail, rereading my posts, I was jumping the gun somewhat there. Possibly based on thoughts drawn from prior threads on surrounding issues, and the fact that JC has a foot in a few camps which, I would guess, ideally means that there doesn't have to be any either/or approaches. For my own part, I'd guess that all options of awareness raising and encouraging inclusivity are possibilities. At least I would hope so.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 01:32 AM

The music for which I have a particular fondness is the traditional music of the British Isles with a preference for the folk music of England.

I agree entirely, Bryan, I have a particular fondness for English and Scottish Dance music in particular but would pose this question. When did it become English or Scottish and what makes it so? When I listen to some of the dance tunes are there distinct east European influences or did English music influence that of Romania or Hungary? Some of the tunes of the Scottish small pipes sound earily like those played by Bretons in France. Now we have influences from further east and west in pop, classical and folk so is what I am listening to really English anyway? I would give an overwhelming YES - Just as Chicken Tika Masala, French wines and, unfortunately, MacDonalds burgers are part of English cuisine.

Anyroads - back to the point. As club organisers we should not be just promoting music that we find interesting, but that that would interest a wider audience maybe? I don't think Greg is asking us to book acts just to cock a snook. But if we can help derail the BNP while booking acts representing ALL cultures of these isles then it is an added bonus:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:13 AM

I am humbled by your remark, Yorgos. Best wishes to you.

Irene

(I don't mind the name, but I ain't getting the operation to go with it.)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:24 PM

At this time Folk Against Fascism's Facebook page has 1,116 friends while the Folk Against Fascism MySpace page has 168 friends.

This may reflect the fact that Facebook is more popular than MySpace, at least according to this article:

Facebook Overtakes MySpace as Most Popular Social Networking Site
BY LEE BAINS — JAN 27TH 2009 AT 3:35PM

"Undergoing a growth spurt of 127-percent over the course of 2008, Facebook finally overtook social networking giant MySpace by drawing 222 million users to Facebook.com in December. Facebook's first month to beat out MySpace was last April.

Not limited to the social networking arena, Facebook's success is impressive even in the most general category; Facebook.com registered as the Internet's seventh most popular destination in December, trailing only Web giants Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, AOL, Wikipedia and eBay."

http://www.switched.com/2009/01/27/facebook-overtakes-myspace-as-most-popular-social-networking-sit/

**

It should be noted that the Folk Against Fascism (FaF) Facebook page was launched one day before the FaF MySpace page. Maybe one of the reason why so many more folks signed on to the Facebook page rather than the MySpace page is that some people have both a Facebook and a MySpace page. Perhaps their reasoning is that if they sign up with one of these FaF pages, they don't have to sign up for the other. Or maybe the truth of the matter is that there really are more folk social networking though Facebook than through MySpace.

Personally, I like the aesthetics at MySpace better (I'm referring to the color backgrounds, the music sound clips, and the different types of friend photos -the logos, the moving pictures and more). Actually, I don't really use my MySpace page for social networking. MySpace seems to me to be a modern version of the custom of exchanging business cards. I launched my MySpace page to promote my website and to feature some creative videos of children that I find on YouTube. Because I like learning about different types of music and cultures, I purposely search for interesting friends throughout the world. And I admit that I often send friend invites to people and groups mostly based on their colorful, eye catching member photos. I enjoy visiting those friends pages, checking out their music, and learning about their cultures. MySpace is a cultural experience for me.

This has little to do with the topic of the thread except to say that I decided not to think of there being any competition between the number of people who sign up as friends with FaF Facebook and FaF MySpace. Maybe that's because if there were a contest, Facebook would win which means "my side" would lose. But I know that's not the point. It's just that this subject is so heavy duty, that my spirit wants to find some way to lighten up. And this was one way I thought about doing so-until I saw that MySpace was bound to lose. Now I'm pushing the "We're all in this together" slogan. That's why-with all due apologies to Rodney King-I ask "Can Facebook friends and Myspace friends get along?"

And I answer "When it comes to Folks Against Fascism-Absolutely!"

;o)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:20 PM

"....fascism is not necessarily racist, in monocultures it finds expresion in highlighting some other ( any other) difference. "(Tug the Cox)

Fascism is "Dictatorsh[p of the Capitalists" according to GB Shaw (1922).

Put these two quotes together and a few more things emerge.

Fascism is a phenomenon of Capitalism - not something on its own. It enables Capitalism to operate without the 'trappings' of Democracy, Rights at Work, the Right to Strike, Rights to Protest - things that were RELUCTANTLY permitted to citizens and workers progressively over 150 or so years.

And we all know Western Capitalism is in deep trouble right now. Though the scapegoats picked on by a given Fascist movement may be racian ones, they may not be and one should be particularly aware that a Fascist partiy of today may spotlight its multi ethnic, and socially Liberal spectrum of supporters.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:00 PM

Irene (Greek for 'peace'), my tub runneth over. I'll raise a pint to you (a drinking Yorgo). Seriously, thanks and well done.
My name will be reinstated in a few days, after the kerfuffle over MBSGeorge has died down.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:48 PM

I am amazed at the response FAF has received in so brief a time. I have been guilty of getting into some fights with people from the trad folk scene in England. My apologies. Many people have joined ('become friends' on the Myspace site that FAF has). I wish to applaud people like Bryan, Ruth A and George P (who it seems wishes to be called yoghurt for some strange reason) and that takes courage. I posted the following on my own MySpace page:

"To my friends on Myspace:

There is a very important Myspace site I hope you will consider joining. Its name is

Folk Against Fascism

In the UK, there is a very dangerous group of people called the British Nationalist Party. They sleep with the likes of the KKK, Aryan Nations and other hate groups. Please consider giving them your support. The garbage hasn't gone away: it's still out there, and now it's getting elected based on lies, distortions of truth and intimidation. WE are stronger than they are--together. Please, let's show them that.

Bruce"

I hope it helps. I have always admired people with guts, and you folks have plenty of that.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:38 PM

greg stephens

I think a practical way for folkies to express their anti-racism would be to be a little bit more inclusive at the level of the organisationm of their own venues.

I'm sorry, Greg, but, speaking for myself, the prime motivation for being involved in a folk club is the music. The music for which I have a particular fondness is the traditional music of the British Isles with a preference for the folk music of England. This is an aesthetic/artistic statement, not a political one. I am more than happy to share my enthusiasm with anyone and everyone, regardless of race, colour or creed.

I do what I can to oppose racism to the point that I have been concerned for my own physical well-being (look through my Mudcat postings) but that is not why I commit my time to helping to run a folk club.

Are you seriously suggesting that folk club organisers should promote music that they don't find interesting just to cock a snook at the BNP?

Bryan Creer

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:09 PM

romany man,

i have no problem at all with anyone who camps somewhere they shouldn't be as long as they have done no damage to the site and clean up after themselves.

i am sure that you have often been tarred by the same brush as new age travellers most groups of whom i have ever met or seen i have dispised as troublemakwers, thieves and litterers, who make no effort to look after the site they are on or respect the locals wherever they find themselves.

we have a batteredvan and a poorly second hand caravan and we can arrord the caravan club here in the u.k, so why can't travellers who have big posh vans and posh 4x4 that pull them.

whenever we have stayed off site we have always made sure we spoke to the locals with respect and left no trace that we were ever there,as i am sure you do.

sorry for ranting at you when i know that it is not the romanys' fault but i get very angry at just the mention of the new age types.

typical example,, stainsby folk festival, it is only on a small feild and there are bins everywhere. in the mornings you will see o laod of glass bottles along with the metal lids right beside the bins....this is a cow field where the cows have been know to get the bottle tops stuck in their feet, very environmentlyfrindly i am sure.


oops i did it again i shall go before i get shot.. lol

take care romany man and be careful it is a nasty world we live in   x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:07 PM

Romany man, all those incidents were cerainly prejudiced, probably racist, they may or may not have been fascist.
   fascism is a political belief in having absolute power to order society as the fascists think fit. Which is normally to do with state control ( certainly not right wing, economically)elimination of other voices, and extermination of those who don't contribute. The word facism comes from the fasces, a bundle of twigs and an axe which was the symbol of power, including punishment and death, of the Roman magistrtates.
facism is not necessarily racist, in monocultures it finds expresion in highlighting some other ( any other) difference. If we were all of the same race, fascists would find other distinctions. Why? because inorder to gain absolute power they must invent an 'other' who is to be feared, whoo must be guarded against, which means the guardians must have full power. ( think Mc Carthy in the 50's and Bush's 'War on terror) This means, in the emergency state, civil liberties must be suspended, never to return.
Facism is an attack on us all, not just the Jews, blacks, communists, islamists who are taking the brunt at any one time.
Wishing you well , Romany Man, just don't call me Gorgoi.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tyke
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:48 PM

All You Fascists

I'm gonna tell you fascists
You may be surprised
The people in this world
Are getting organized
You're bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose

Race hatred cannot stop us
This one thing we know
Your poll tax and Jim Crow
And greed has got to go
You're bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose.

All of you fascists bound to lose:
I said, all of you fascists bound to lose:
Yes sir, all of you fascists bound to lose:
You're bound to lose! You fascists:
Bound to lose!

People of every color
Marching side to side
Marching 'cross these fields
Where a million fascists dies
You're bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose!

I'm going into this battle
And take my union gun
We'll end this world of slavery
Before this battle's won
You're bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose!


Woody Guthrie

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: romany man
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:47 PM

a simple question the old "what is fascism" i could say i daily face racist remarks cos of me birth race,is that fascism?, I still cant find anywhere to graze my horses with tempory stables? yet people i share the present field with, (non gypsies) were granted grazing rights localy? is that fascism? when i go to my local shop, the staff wander about behind me but not others, is that it, yet how many of you have said the old, bloody pikey comment or bloody gypsies, how many of you have objected to sites being opened for us, perhaps thats it, how many of you would jump to defend your local romanies ? perhaps thats it, so i ask how many of you non romanies know the difference between romanies and non romanies, thats just one part. Who decides what is patriotic and what is fascist, anyone who can deny the holocaust is off thier bloody head,( but then so am i, and i got a certificate) how long will it be before the patriots are classed as fascists, sadly its a thin line in my opinion, what next folk against commies, or against rock and roll , im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is against fascism , a much greater number, cant stop it what can we do.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:14 PM

Thank yopu Frank Hamilton.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:05 PM

I find it a little sad that the minute I started talking about people being a little more welcoming to a spot of cultural diversity,we get comeback from people saying "What's wrong with sticking up for Brit folk?".As if they were opposites.Actually, the two are perfectly compatible. I referred to my own work in recording refugee/asylum seeker music in England. I don't expect many people to be familiar with what I do, but I can assure anyone that I have also been researching, publishing, promulgating,recording, teaching, performing and generally enthusing over indigenous local English music with considerable vigour since the 60's.And if you don't know my own music, you are probably familiar with people who have learnt tunes and songs off me. I love folk music. That's what I live and breathe.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:02 PM

And hopefully, there will be a Preview feature for comments-not that I would use it. LOL

Here's the corrected sentence from my post before this one:

"...like that above linked blog, [the policy of that site could be that] comments/essays/articles could have been posted elsewhere before being posted on the FaF website (or the FaF blog) or be cross posted on the FaF site and another site at the same time."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:00 PM

Hey George - When did you become Yorgos?

Whatcher mean- You always was?

I have enough problems with your surname. How come you can't have a good English name like Polakow or Mistry or Li or Abedoye or... :-P

On a more serious note, I do agree with Greg. I have tried my best to get a good mix at Swinton but only been sucessful with Tuup (Ghania), Orleck Dance Troup (Ukraine), Boat Band (Stoke) and some Greek bloke who sings wonderful songs, about anything and everything, in English:-)

The trouble I find though is the difficulty getting good world music at the same sort of deal we do for everyone - Ie - The door and raffle with the occasional subsidy from meagre club funds. I know I have talked to Greg about this before and the trouble is that I realy do not know how to get the music deriving from other cultures into our club. I do hope and pray that eventualy we will get floor singers and 'jobbing' musicians from other traditions in our mix. As has happened in other aspects of life, food being the prime example, surely we will eventualy get all cultures represented in the 'folk scene' (whatever that is). Won't we? After all, I genuinely believe that there is a general acceptance of other cultures to our shores, with the primary execption of those of the BNP persuasion. It is what makes English culture so strange!

As to freedom of speech. Yes, well. As well as the aforementioned crying of fire in a crowded place we should also remember that freedom cannot and should not cross the laws of the land. If that freedom of speech is inciting racial hatred it is already illegal. Anyone who cannot see the difference between freedom of speech and restriction of crime deserves all they get.

Anyway, off to join FaF right now.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:57 PM

I look forward to visiting the Folk Against Fascism website. And I hope that that website will include educational essays such as Frank Hamilton's (Stringsinger's) 10 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM post. Hopefully, readers' comments could be posted in response to an essay, similar to what is done on a number of blogs such as this one.

Here's another suggestion for the content of the FaF website-like that above linked blog, comments/essays/articles, it could have been posted elsewhere before being posted on the FaF website (or the FaF blog) or be cross posted on the FaF site and another site at the same time.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:27 PM

More power to the FAF.

And FAFing about could gain a whole new respectability!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM

My instinct is that the egg throwing was a set-up. During demonstrations of the Vietnam War in the US there were right-wing political operatives acting as rabble-rousers to incite violence.

A little history for some folkies here. The Left-wing movement of the US championed the
folk music collecting, archiving and the development of folklorists and folk song collectors. Pete Seeger spearheaded an approach to folk music which was ultimately the foundation for the commercial folk music revival in the US and abroad as well. Some would call that a political act. Although it involved some politics, it was more of a movement like what is being promoted here.

Actually, politics can't be separated from the arts any more than it can from any other expression or endeavor in life. Even the idea of anti-politics is a political statement.

The BNP is a dangerous right-wing organization that threatens real democracy. Like the
Operation Rescue movement in the US it could be a platform for violence. So far, it may not have crossed the line but it could easily become a so-called "terrorist" platform.

Folk Singer Against Fascism has venerable historical roots here in the US. We had People's Songs, Broadside Magazine, and People's Artists in New York. Paul Robeson was a champion of the political expression of anti-Fascism through song. Woody Guthrie was a songwriter who spent his life writing songs about anti-Fascism. Josh White, Leadbelly, Big Bill Broonzy and Richard Dyer-Benett supported left-wing causes in the early days to speak out against anti-Fascism. There is a strong connection with anti-Fascism in the roots of American folk music which was nurtured by the Left-wing in the Thirties and Forties and onward.

Like Operation Rescue, he BNP might be metaphorically in danger of "yelling fire in a crowded theater" which is an infringement of free speech.

More power to the FAF.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 05:48 PM

Greg,
Have you taken a look at the line ups for various Off The Tracks Festivals, Castle Donington, Derbyshire over the years?