Folk Against Fascism

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:57 AM

greg ,
cant you read,there are three posts,the first is yours the second mine and the third, guest silas,all clearly headed.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:59 AM

Well captain, I'm not altogether certain that 'integration' is the right way to go. In fact, I think it is the wrong way to go.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:06 AM

Cross-cultural (especially youth) folk musical projects - especially in cities with high levels of immigrant cultures, is a perfectly sound and sensible idea IMO.
A space for kids to both learn about, exchange, and forge fusions of, their own different traditional musics.
Can't see any problem with the suggestion myself. And while we all debate this stuff, in the spirit of err 'positivity', I hardly see just calling an idea 'bonkers' very useful..

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:08 AM

Well, bonkers is as bonkers does.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:10 AM

Oops, now I'm somewhat misinterpreting things The Cap'n said! Eh oh!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:15 AM

It would make Mudcat vastly easier to read, and make arguments less likely to go in the wrong direction, if it was easier to change bits of text into different colours, or bold or italic. Then it wouild clear when the Cap'n is quoting, and when he is writing as himself. Writing an email, you can change it instantly as you wish. Writing on Mudcat, you have to understand some weird computer stuff first,which many of us find difficult to master.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:26 AM

Andrew Wigglesworth. "Fred, are you disagreeing with me?"

No. I'm just trying to explain that their present inactivity in folk music, and in other areas, probably stems from a lack of willing participants. Present BNP membership stands at around 13,000, of which only 250 are listed as activists, and they are the ones who are supposed to be litter picking, decorating old peoples houses etc., as well as running local branches.

If, God forbid, the BNP ever becomes a mass party, that is when they'll start organising corporate activities along the lines promoted in the Acitists Handbook. Can't you just envisage it? BNP Youth camps, with healthy Aryan members sitting around camp fires, singing suitably doctored Aryan folk songs. BNP decoration teams. 'You can have your house painted any colour you want as long as it's white.' BNP litter picks. A couple of dozen blue eyed blonde haired Aryans with bin bags and mechanical grabbers singing the John Tyndall song and chanting Heil Griffin as they go.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:44 AM

well i go away for one day and i have to spend an hour just catching up!!!

FRED, you ideas are scary but if the BNP get their way i don't think it would take thm long to get like that.

as for 50/50 grants, i have heard somewhere that U.K festivals get more funding if they book foriegn artists or groups(not foreign in a bad way) i can't beleive i just had to quantify the word foreign.

i think the only way to stop them infiltrating folk clubs and culture is to keep a freindly eye on strangers,especially if they happen to be recording the performance..it's a sad world when we have to be suspious of a new face.

GREG, your' idea of making colours and text easier is welcomed, i have had it explained to me but still can't figure it out,even when i write it in differnet colours in a new page it won't transfer. you are not alone!!!!

so how else do we fight without becoming preachy? i have no idea, but to know that there are so many people out there that feel the same as i do, makes me feel that now anything is possible.
i haven't been on the FaF yet, does anyone know how the merch situation is going? i can't wait to get to do something possative instead of bitching about this problem.

take care all

jade x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:48 AM

If I were from the UK, I don't know that I would be in agreement regarding a proposal that the English government provide grants to folk clubs that have a booking policy of "50 per cent english traditional,and 50 percent traditional/contemporary asian music. Once you start doing percentages, then "folk" (meaning "people") will start arguing about how the percentages were figured out-for instance, instead of 50/50 what if some people argue for 70/30 or 60/40? What would the percentages be based on?

And, for the sake of helping me (and maybe others)correctly understand this line of the discussion, what is meant by the term "Asian" in the context of that suggestion?

Does "Asian" used here mean the same thing as it does in the USA-people who are of Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and/or other ancestries from that geographical area of the world? Or does "Asian" in that comment mean the same thing as "BME"-a term which means Black, Minority Ethnic (which I just learned from this thread or another recent Mudcat thread)?

I hasten to say that the meaning of the term does not matter to me in the context of the suggestion which I can't support since I don't live in England/Great Britain/the United Kingdom. But I'm just wanting to make sure that I'm correctly interpreting what that referent means.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:50 AM

Crow Sister

With respect Snail, your posts on this thread are becoming increasingly unconstructive IMO.

Then, perhaps, I am not expressing myself very clearly. I am in (almost) complete agreement with your second and third paragraphs. The "almost" comes from the quote "indigenous (thus specifically *not* immigrant) folk music of the British Isles.". Nobody stands up in a folk club and says "This is from the singing of Walter Pardon. It is specifically not immigrant folk music."

Folknacious's attitude strikes me as dangerously wrong headed. You say "That is why we must be careful about the language we use. Folknacious says that it's all but impossible to get it right without running close to the BNP manifesto. Which essentially means "Don't do it." The BNP will have no such inhibitions so, if we follow that policy, they will be the only ones singing British songs and playing British tunes. (Well, English anyway. I don't thing the Scots, Irish, Welsh, Cornish or Manx will give up their music so easily.)

The only reason I quoted it again was because Vic seemed to be taking up the same idea. (It might help you to know that Vic and I have known each other for going on for forty years. He's not someone I'm going to snipe at.) As for me not being constructive, apart from Folknacious's spectacular progress from "If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music" to ,"close to the BNP manifesto", nobody has come up with any examples of dodgy language or offered examples of how to do it properly.

The solution I have offered is that as many people as possible who are demonstrably not racists and fascists should sing, play, dance, listen to and watch the music. Nobody has responded to that.

If you have anything constructive to offer, I'll be glad to listen.

Bryan Creer

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:55 AM

I meant to say that besides what the percentages would be, I'm not sure that I would be supportive of the idea that folk clubs receive any grants to integrate their performance bookings unless those folk clubs are publicly supported and not private organizations.

But, again, I say this knowing next to nothing about English folk clubs so maybe I shouldn't have posted anything about this line of the discussion.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:01 AM

"publicly supported" meaning "receiving government funding".

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that while I support the mission of the FaF, (being an American) I should stay out of this discussion mostly because there's too much about the cultures that I don't know and understand. I'm just speaking for me and not anyone else who is not from the UK.

Because of that conclusion, from now on I'll be lurking and not posting to this thread.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:09 AM

as matter of fact,I am in favour of encouraging all traditional contemporary folk music as well as English.
As the BNP hostilty seems primarily to be anti muslim,it would seem a good place to start,in an attempt to break down barriers,and build friendship.
yes, I know some Asian people are not muslim,but there has to be a starting point.
50 /50 booking policy,50 per cent english , 50 per cent muslim choice,if two parties are to integrate,it has to be[IMO] a two way equal process,so if a club books a guest artist,40 weeks of the year,20 English performers 20 asian performers.
However there is no reason,why a promoter should not apply,for grants and book Chinese and English performers,on a fifty/FIFTY per cent ratio.THE WHOLE OBJECT OF THE EXERCISE BEING EXPOSING TWO MUSIC CULTURES TO ONE ANOTHER.
I am not against money being given to clubs that book purely English traditional music,or purely Chinese traditional music.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM

OK Bryan, sorry for becoming mildly intemperate - I find myself often frustrated with the arguments that I see on Mudcat - and feel that *here* is at least ONE place where folk enthusiasts could give that extra leeway to each other in support of a collectively endorsed cause.

So just to clarify: "The music the BNP are targeting, is what we would collectively generally recognise (though the specific criteria which determine what 'it' is, might be debatable - THAT is a side issue) to be "indigenous (thus specifically *not* immigrant) folk music of the British Isles.""

Of course no-one describes their musical taste by 'what it's not' (ie in this instance 'non immigrant folk music) And yet THAT is the specific reason it's been targeted by the BNP. Because to a Nationalists eyes (even if they hate music), it is 'pure and unadultarated'. It is in the eyes of a right-wing Nationalist, not valuable for what it IS as such, so much as for what it can be defined as NOT being.

So, I mean that the threat is being very specifically directed AT traditional *indigenous* (thus by default white) music of Britain and England in particular, in contradistinction to 'British' folk musics belonging to immigrant cultures.

Simply because it is what it is, it becomes a possible 'banner' for those who would wave it to promote ends which could damage it badly by association.

Anyway, I'm sure we are all on the same side here. So I'm going to do my best to avoid tangling with contentious issues on this thread in future myself! ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: IanC
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM

Azizi
Does "Asian" used here mean the same thing as it does in the USA-people who are of Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and/or other ancestries from that geographical area of the world?

Basically, yes ... though in Britain most of the people called "asian" will have originated from the Indian subcontinent as that's where most of our ties historically are.

:-)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:17 AM

Well Captain, I still can't see why or how this would work, or even if I would want it to.

With all due respect, i think the idea is nuts. There must be much better ways of spending tax payers money than this.

No, bugger the respect, the idea is barking mad.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:19 AM

Azizi: on a technical point, your query about British usage of the word Asian. It is confusing, as people here use the word in two incompatible ways. (1) People from the continent of Asia(or with that racial/cultural backlground).
(2) People fron the Indian sub-continent (or with that racial/cultural background).

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:26 AM

as crow sister says the BNP believe that english folk is exactly that, " pure and unadulterated".. the very idea!!! yes alot of our music comes from english writers and singers but people are influenced in many ways throught international media. they might write them as set in england but the idea may have come from anywhere. do they not think that anywhere else may have had factories, woods river banks, mills? who knows where these stories started off before being sung instead.

take care all #jade x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM

I had come across common ballad themes running across Europe, for example a Czech ballad that follows the story of the Two Magicians.

I would like to research how much folksolg is Bohemian in origin, and how much crossover their has been through Roma communities bu tthat I think should be another thread.

The term pure and unadulterated is totally meaningless in respect of folksong as the 'folk process' is a process of adulteration as songs migrate from community to community, and at the point of collection we don't know how much adulteration has already taken place.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM

Just a bit of light relief from the heavier side of the thread. My mate Dave and I went to a multi-cultural event in Salford a couple of years back. It was at Peel Park for those that know it - for those that do not it is a nice venue but also houses an art gallery and museum to give you an idea of the general 'feel'. It was very pleasent but, to be honest, quite dull. We all sat and sipped a glass of Chardonay while watching showcased acts from recent immigrant communities. We politely clapped and when it finished we wended our way over to the Crescent public house. Which is where the real integration started:-)

After a few pints of very fine assorted real ales we were amidst the most amazing music session I had ever come across. It was definitely not just the beer either. We had a Bosnian guitarist, a Polish accordian player, a fiddler from somewhere I could not pronounce, a couple of Somali percusionists, an opera singer from Russia and beyond that it all gets a little vague. Living proof, if anyone needs it, that music is the true international language. I am preety sure there were no facists around:-)

On the subject of funding for ethnic minority (do we still use that term?) performers. Why not indeed? If it helps us break those barriers and repels the invasion of the B(NP)ody snatchers then I am all for it. I am as sure as I can be that it will not be to the detriment of more traditional clubs. In fact, I am convinced that a few clubs showcasing other talents will be a good gateway for immigrants, recent and otherwise, to discover English folk as well as the other way round!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 11:59 AM

Another bit of light relief.

I am quite proud of how Sheffield United were at the forefront of the camapign to Kick Racism out of Football, partly because of Arthur Wharton who is regarded as the first ever black professional player and he spent some of his career with the Blades.

Anyway the "black bastard" cry came up from behind us at a game and a number of us shouted "It's the colour of the shirt" at the offender.

Sheepishly he admitted he was referring to the referee!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:04 PM

Two of the downsides to public funding are, all the hoops you have to jump through AND all the bloody paperwork....

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:09 PM

Two of the downsides to public funding are, all the hoops you have to jump through AND all the bloody paperwork....

I know exactly what you mean but the alternative is to give monety away to whoever asks first and/or loudest! I think we can afford a to learn few circus skills when we are asking for taxpayers money:-)

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:17 PM

"to learn few circus skills when we are asking for taxpayers money:-)"

Hoop jumping has become a speciality fgor me..not that I do it while performing....wait though, now that might be a good.....nah.. *LOL*

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:50 PM

Silas ,please, explain why it is nuts,Enlighten us with your erudite Etymology.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 01:06 PM

Well, its bleedin' obvious really. If people want to go and see a trad english act, they will, if they want to see an authentic Asian folk act they will. You don't need to have a club put one act on one week and another act on the next week, cos guess whaty will happen? The people who like Trad english will go to the trad english session and the folk that like Asian stuff will go to the Asian session. Why on earth do you think that people will go to both sessions?

Jeeze, its hard enough to get trad club members to go to Watersons concerts AND Kate Rusby sessions, they have very strong preferences.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 01:35 PM

Why on earth do you think that people will go to both sessions?


I would! Does that make me nuts as well? What about festivals? Seen the line up just announced for the Dent festival? Been to Fylde in tha last few years. Acts from all over the world and hundreds of people enjoying them all. Are they all bonkers?

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM

I would too.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Scotsman Over The Border
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM

I don't think you can enforce integration, you can make it easier, but I'm not sure a booking policy at folk clubs is the way to go about it. BTW, if anyone can tell me what the "English government" mentioned earlier is, I'd be grateful.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: brezhnev
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 02:16 PM

anyone got any suggestions for appropriate songs to sing at an FAF gig/rally?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 03:09 PM

"Silas ,please, explain why it is nuts,Enlighten us with your erudite Etymology."

"Well, its bleedin' obvious really!"

Silas, to most people it is obvious, but to the few you have to explain things verryyyyy slowly and very carefully, using LOTS of pictures.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 03:46 PM

Of course, Silas is entitled to his opinion, as I am entitled to my experience. On the occasions when I have been to folk clubs and pub sessions with my Zimbabwean friends who are singers, as far as I have observed people are very happy if the visitors sing a Zimbabwean folksong. Lovers of English traditional song have not walked out, neither have the Zimbabweans walked out when someone sang "Pleasant and Delightful". No compulsion, no fighting,no unpleasantness. The vast majority of people on the folk scene actually like this sort of thing, I am delighted to say. Though clearly not everybody, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 03:59 PM

FAF can be an organization that exists to reclaim English folk from the BNP.

And when it organizes a FAF night, it can feature English folk acts, but also include non English folk styles on the lineup.

This welcomes 'other' styles to be involved in the English folk scene and to discover it for themselves, and it allows English folkies to witness other forms of folk too that might make the noght more interesting.

It can also feature a solely english lineup.

None of the above are incompatible.

As long as the banner is held high and the message resonates - oh ... and the night is fun and the music is entertaining ... - then get busy doing it how you wanna do it.

I will be on the look out for FAF nights and i will be recommending that promoters I know go out of their way to organize such nights.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 04:28 PM

All very noble, I'm sure.

"It can also feature a solely english lineup"

talk about playing right into the hands of the BNP, some people just ask for trouble.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM

So, what does the BNP think about sea shanties?(Or what do the people think about them who just "prefer indigenous English music"?)
England's most sucessful musical export? Or universally loved black folksongs? Or maybe just a fabulous mongrel mix of both?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 05:03 PM

[Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman - PM
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 04:28 PM

All very noble, I'm sure.

"It can also feature a solely english lineup"

talk about playing right into the hands of the BNP, some people just ask for trouble.]
Rifleman,Really,I would say the opposite.I reckon you play into the hands of the BNP,by abandoning English Traditional music,and letting them take it over.
Rifleman,how you doing with your Carter family repertoire?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 05:26 PM

why don't we alternate the acts at folk clubs? seems like a simple idea to me. does anyone know if foreign acts get more funding i would love to know.

RIFLEMAN, when do we get the link for your youtube clips? i have absolutely no idea what i would be looking for otherwise.

i have run out of steam now so will come back tommorrow.
have a great day/ night all

take care
jade x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 05:57 PM

Go to

http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/page/invite/notinmyname

and sign the petition

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 06:37 PM

Rifleman: "It can also feature a solely english lineup"
talk about playing right into the hands of the BNP

Of course if a concert was organised by FAF or specifically to promote its aims, it would make far more sense and reinforce the anti-raccism message for it to have an international content.

But if we all have to have mixed British and other music every time we have a folk club or concert for fear of being viewed as aligned with the BNP, the BNP have won that round. We can do what we bloody well like, and part of what FAF is there for, I hope, is to allow us to celebrate British folk music without being labelled racist by association.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:41 PM

we don't have to mix and match the musical styles but if somewhere wanted to that would be cool by me, i think the best way of doing that would be to alternate on the same night so you wouldn't get just one sort of listeners turning up.

howevr that is entirely up to the club/festival organiser.i agree that the best way to fight the BNP would be to change NOTHING.i think we have a good mixture of people and most of them are reasonable and approachable(?) so why change something that works well?


jade x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:47 PM

Well done Greg Stephens. The whole idea of 'English' folk music is about as absurd as the idea of a true born English person. This 'fact a fiction' was exposed over 400 years ago. Despite some peoples' attempts to exclude 'irish ' music ( but include Breton and Eastern European)in their 'English Music' sessions, hundreds of traditional tunes appear in the repertoires of players and singers from many communities, having been largely spread by travelling people. Of course, having found a foothold in a local community the song/tune would have taken on the characteristics of the local players, and probably a localised title ( Rakes of Mallow/Rigs of Marlow) but to suggest , e.g Smash the Windows/Roaring Jelly, or Garryowen/Walk of the Twopenny Postaman, or Lass o'Dallogill as EITHER 'Realy' English or Irish is ignorant beyond comprehension. To do so you would have to set the clock at a certain date, like Sharp and co often did, blissfully unaware of tradition and evolution.
The same can be said of the collectors who recorded 'traditional'musicians and attempted to ditinguish, in their repertoire, those tunes/songs which were traditional, and those that had come from 'sources' ( music hall, radio , sheet music etc).Jeez, they all started somewhere, some thought that if they knew WHEN and WHERE, the tune originated it wasn't traditional. sometimes called anon. Well, it is theoretically possible to discover the first edition of every song, does this mean that none of them are traditional?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:00 PM

Oh thank you, thank you, Anahata. I was beginning to feel I was alone.

The BNP are trying to appropriate British music. Don't let them.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:19 PM

"We can do what we bloody well like, and part of what FAF is there for, I hope, is to allow us to celebrate British folk music without being labelled racist by association.

Anahata"

BRAVO!

Do NOT ever back away from those racist bastards. I just finished reading--for time number 15 (or something like that)--Leon Uris' "QB VII". Scary how the 'good' Dr Kelno thought so much like the BNP.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:07 PM

Y'ain't alone, Snail. Not at all.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:59 PM

i don't think anyone was saying we should back down or have to justify why we do what we do.

i think the idea was if we wanted to broaden our horizons how could we do it.. i think anyway.

there is nothing wrong with how things are and i don't want it to change becuase we are scared of how it COULD be seen. if that was the case for everything, we wouldn't post here at all. the NOBLE BNP will not change my lifestyle in any way shape or form, except if they somehow make petrol even more expensive.

i agree that i have felt the need to justify some of my remarks but that was so others who are only just reading this know where i am coming from,it suprised me that i felt the need, okay maybe i was having a paraniod moment, think of it in terms of when someone falls over and you laugh, but then feel abit guilty.

i'm okay now just had a bit of a rant head on me.

take care all

jade x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 03:28 AM

"The whole idea of 'English' folk music is about as absurd as the idea of a true born English person."

Precisely. What I find worrying is that the BNP seem to be adopting a similar spurious, straight-jacketed and self-serving approach to folk music to that which Ewan MacColl invented to support a diametrically-opposed political perspective. Phrases like, "we should be pursuing some kind of national identity" and, "If we subject ourselves consciously or unconsciously to too much cultural acculturation, as the anthropologists call it, we'll finish with no folk culture at all. We'll finish with a kind of cosmopolitan, half-baked music, which doesn't satisfy the emotion of anybody." would be equally at home in a BNP manifesto as from MacColl. This sort of approach to folk music never has been and never will be acceptable to those of us who take a broader view of the genre, and it just comes back to bite us all on the arse.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 03:40 AM

I am sorry, but that is too much. FaFFing horse definitioners AGAIN.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:08 AM

"The whole idea of 'English' folk music is about as absurd as the idea of a true born English person"
I agree with most of that post. However I am also a "English Music" enthusiast and perpetrator of one of those "anything but Irish" sessions and I think I should explain why. It's true that you can't pin down the origins of some tunes or songs to one country or another, but there are recognisable current repertoires and styles of playing that are typically English, Irish, Scottish and even more regional than that. And there's also a balance or perception to be restored: many English people outside the folk scene don't think there is such a thing as English music at all. They hear a tune played on a fiddle or a penny whistle in a pub and assume it's Irish. I've had several conversations about that with onlookers at pub music sessions. Why do they attach a national label to it at all, and why not just call it folk or traditional music (like they would in Scotland)? The reason is because the whole concept is so unfamiliar that it's assumed to be foreign, and because Irish (or "Celtic" or Scottish) music has been better marketed)

MacColl was dealing a similar and quite specific problem in his time. When I was a clueless kid I thought folk music was an American invention. UK folk singers were singing American songs (and in a fake American accent) and MacColl was just reminding them that we did have some indigenous music of our own and why shouldn't we include at least some of that in our repertoire?

(English music has had some media recognition in the last 10 years, so I suppose I can be a bit more relaxed about things now. It's still what I enjoy playing and researching)

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:36 AM

What are people disagreeing about? Most of the posts on the thread have been suggesting that there is nothing at all wrong with celebrating, performing or listening to English folk music or any other folk music. The point is that it is not to the exclusion or detriment of anything; and other music should not be to the detriment of trad. English. Whether the two are mixed at one venue, one night, across seperate events or completely integrated is irrelevent. Facism is about forcing other people to share your views. Folk against Facism should be showing that we can do what we want. By staging trad. English events, 'foreign' events and mixed ones we can show that the restrictive views of the BNP are not welcome. Is everyone was agreed on that?

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 04:56 AM

The point is this.

If you do have other folk cultures on the bill it doesn't harm english folk in any way.

It's just an option that you are free to choose or not depending on what you fancy.

Likewise, if you don't have other folk cultures on the bill it doesn't follow that you have created perfect petri dish style condiitions for the BNP to infect and consume the event.

The point is, people being free to put on whatever night they want and keeping the BNP out.

In both cases a simple anti nazi point is easily made by denying ownership to them and keeping a lid firmly on their politics.

Any FAF night is already making a political statement by simply occurring in the first place.

The banner advertizes a celebration of music at which Nazi ideology is not welcome.