BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 11:30 PM

Insane Man - the is no "F-Toupee" in this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 10:30 PM

I'm still listening to BOTH sides, because if Bobert's claim was right, OK..but Bobert, and F-Toupee, could you please come up with something to substantiate your claims...besides, "BTW, Saws... The stuff yhou put up is exactly the stuff I said you'd put up...".. with something a little more than rhetoric.

As it is, right now, Sawzaw, is putting forth a far more convincing case.

Oh, and Tia's links, were more what I had in mind, as so far as presenting the 'other' side...but that was for the debt, and what I was inquiring about were the 'Weathermen'....you know, that group who rose to some notoriety, while protesting the Administration of LBJ (D-Texas), and his policies....even though they spanned a couple of administrations.

So come on, give it your best shot. I'm all ears(or eyes, as the case may be).

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 09:46 PM

Heck, F-troupe... The FBI knew all about me... They prolly have a hundred pictures of me which I'd like to have 'cause I had some nice dark hair back then and lots of it... Hey, we had two FBI guys who made no bones about who they were... I mean, they'd ask me questions about stuff... You, dumb stuff, like "What time is that demonstartion??? Are you gonna set up a PA???" Like who cared??? There's a picture of me in the Richmond Chronicle talkin' with them about an event... Wish I had a copy of that one... No big thing... Sometimes they'd just show up at my flat and ask me dumb questions??? Couple of losers...

BTW, Saws... The stuff yhou put up is exactly the stuff I said you'd put up...

No matter...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 09:45 PM

1969
    * June 18-22 - Students for a Democratic Society SDS National Convention held in Chicago, Illinois. Publication of "Weatherman" founding statement. Members seize control of SDS National Office.
    * July - Members Bernardine Dohrn, Eleanor Raskin, Dianne Donghi, Peter Clapp, David Millstone and Diana Oughton travel to Cuba and meet representatives of the North Vietnamese and Cuban governments.
    * August - Weatherman member Linda Sue Evans travels to North Vietnam. Weatherman activists meet in Cleveland, Ohio, in preparation for "Days of Rage" protests scheduled for October, 1969 in Chicago.
    * September 3 - Female members participate in a "jailbreak" at South Hills High School in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, where they run through the school shouting anti-war slogans and distributing literature promoting the "National Action." The term "Pittsburgh 26" refers to the 26 women arrested in connection with this incident.
    * September 24 - A group of members confront Chicago Police during a demonstration supporting the "National Action," and protesting the commencement of the Chicago Eight trial stemming from the 1968 Democratic National Convention.
    * October 5 - The Haymarket Police Statue in Chicago is bombed; Weathermen later claim credit for the bombing in their book, Prairie Fire.
    * October 8-11 - The "Days of Rage" riots occur in Chicago, damaging a large amount of property. 287 Weatherman members are arrested, some become fugitives when they fail to appear for trial in connection with their arrests.
    * November 8th - Sniper attack on Cambridge Police Station. Two shots were fired. Two Weathermen, James Kilpatrick and James Reaves, were indicted and then subsequently released when a witness recanted his testimony.
    * November-December - Karen Ashley and Phoebe Hirsch were among the few Weatherman members to join the first contingent of the Venceremos Brigade (VB) that departs for Cuba to harvest sugar cane.
    * December 6 - Bombing of several Chicago police cars parked in a precinct parking lot at 3600 North Halsted Street, Chicago. The WUO claims responsibility in Prairie Fire, stating it is a protest of the fatal police shooting of Illinois Black Panther Party leaders Fred Hampton and Mark Clark on December 4, 1969.
    * December 27-30 - Weathermen hold a "War Council" in Flint, Michigan, where plans are finalized to change into an underground organization that will commit strategic acts of sabotage against the government. Thereafter they are called "Weather Underground Organization" (WUO).
1970
    * January - Silas and Judith Bissell placed a home-made bomb under the steps of the R.O.T.C. building. The bomb was made from an electric blasting cap, an alarm clock, a battery and a plastic bag filled with gasoline and explosives.
    * February - The WUO closes the SDS National Office in Chicago, concluding the major campus-based organization of the 1960s. The first contingent of the VB returns from Cuba and the second contingent departs. By mid-February the bulk of the leading WUO members go underground.
    * February 16: A bomb is detonated at the Golden Gate Park branch of the San Francisco Police Department, killing one officer and injuring a number of other policemen (one seriously). No organization claims credit for either bombing. (See San Francisco Police Department Park Station bombing.)
    * On February 21, the house of Judge Murtagh, who presides over the Panther 21 trial, is fire-bombed by a WUO cell in New York City. The same night, molotov cocktails were thrown at a police car in Manhattan and two military recruiting stations in Brooklyn.
    * March - Warrants are issued for several WUO members, who become federal fugitives when they fail to appear for trial in Chicago.
    * March 6 - WUO members Theodore Gold, Diana Oughton, and Terry Robbins are killed in the Greenwich Village townhouse explosion, when a nailbomb they were constructing detonates. The bomb was intended to be planted at a non-commissioned officer's dance at Fort Dix, New Jersey.
    * March 30 - Chicago police discover a WUO "bomb factory" on Chicago's north side.
    * April 1 - Based on a tip Chicago Police find 59 sticks of dynamite, ammunition, and nitro glyerine in an apartment traced to WUO members. The discover of the WUO weapons cache ends WUO activity in this city.
    * April 2 - A federal grand jury in Chicago returns a number of indictments charging WUO members with violation of federal anti-riot laws. Also, a number of additional federal warrants charging "unlawful flight to avoid prosecution" are returned in Chicago based on the failure of WUO members to appear for trial in local cases. (The Anti-riot Law charges were later dropped in January, 1974.)
    * April 15 - The FBI arrests WUO members Linda Sue Evans and Dianne Donghi in New York with the help of WUO infiltrator, Larry Grathwohl.
    * May 10 - The National Guard Association building in Washington, D.C. is bombed.
    * May 21 - The WUO releases its "Declaration of a State of War" communique under Bernardine Dohrn's name.
    * June 6 - In a letter, the WUO claims credit for bombing of the San Francisco Hall of Justice, although no explosion has occurred. Months later, workmen locate an unexploded bomb.
    * June 9 - The New York City Police headquarters is bombed by Jane Alpert and accomplices. Weathermen state this is in response to "police repression." The bomb made with ten sticks of dynamite exploded in the NYC Police Headquarters. The explosion was preceded by a warning about six minutes prior to the detonation and subsequently by a WUO claim of responsibility.
    * July 23 - A federal grand jury in Detroit, Michigan, returns indictments against thirteen WUO members and former WUO members charging violations of various explosives and firearms laws. (These indictments were later dropped in October, 1973.)
    * July 25 - The United States Army base at The Presidio in San Francisco is bombed on the 11th anniversary of the Cuban Revolution. On the same day, a branch of the Bank of America is bombed in New York.
    * July 28 - Bank of America HQ in NYC is bombed around 3:50 AM. WUO claims responsibility.
    * September 15 - The WUO helps Dr. Timothy Leary escape from the California Men's Colony prison.
    * October 8 - Bombing of Marin County courthouse. WUO states this is in retaliation for the killings of Jonathan Jackson, William Christmas, and James McClain
    * October 10 - A Queens traffic-court building is bombed. WUO claims this is to express support for the New York prison riots.
    * October 11 - A Courthouse in Long Island City, NY is bombed. An estimated 8 to 10 sticks of dynamite are used. A warning was given around 10 min. prior to the 1:23 AM blast by the WUO.
    * October 12 - Around October 12 eight bomb explosions occur, Five in Rochester New York, Two in NYC, and One in Orlando FL. Despite WUO bomb warnings three persons are injured.
    * October 14 - The Harvard Center for International Affairs is bombed by The Proud Eagle Tribe of Weather (later renamed the Women's Brigade of the Weather Underground). WUO claims this is to protest the war in Vietnam. The bombing was in reaction to Angela Davis' arrest and was the first action undertaken by an all-women's unit of WUO.
    * October - Bernardine Dohrn, Katherine Ann Power, and Susan Edith Saxe were put on the FBI's Ten Most Wanted List
    * December - Fugitive WUO member Caroline Tanker, who fled the country for Cuba, is arrested by the FBI in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
    * December 5th - Five Weatherman are captured for trying to bomb First National City Bank of NY and other buildings on the anniversary of the death of Fred Hampton. These individuals subsequently plead guilty.
    * December 11th - Vivian Bogart and Patricia Mclean from the WUO are arrested after throwing an incendiary bomb at the Royal National Bank in NYC around 1:30 AM.
    * December 16 - Fugitive WUO member Judith Alice Clark is arrested on the Days of Rage indictments by the FBI in New York.]

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 09:43 PM

1969
    * June 18-22 - Students for a Democratic Society SDS National Convention held in Chicago, Illinois. Publication of "Weatherman" founding statement. Members seize control of SDS National Office.
    * July - Members Bernardine Dohrn, Eleanor Raskin, Dianne Donghi, Peter Clapp, David Millstone and Diana Oughton travel to Cuba and meet representatives of the North Vietnamese and Cuban governments.
    * August - Weatherman member Linda Sue Evans travels to North Vietnam. Weatherman activists meet in Cleveland, Ohio, in preparation for "Days of Rage" protests scheduled for October, 1969 in Chicago.
    * September 3 - Female members participate in a "jailbreak" at South Hills High School in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, where they run through the school shouting anti-war slogans and distributing literature promoting the "National Action." The term "Pittsburgh 26" refers to the 26 women arrested in connection with this incident.
    * September 24 - A group of members confront Chicago Police during a demonstration supporting the "National Action," and protesting the commencement of the Chicago Eight trial stemming from the 1968 Democratic National Convention.
    * October 5 - The Haymarket Police Statue in Chicago is bombed; Weathermen later claim credit for the bombing in their book, Prairie Fire.
    * October 8-11 - The "Days of Rage" riots occur in Chicago, damaging a large amount of property. 287 Weatherman members are arrested, some become fugitives when they fail to appear for trial in connection with their arrests.
    * November 8th - Sniper attack on Cambridge Police Station. Two shots were fired. Two Weathermen, James Kilpatrick and James Reaves, were indicted and then subsequently released when a witness recanted his testimony.
    * November-December - Karen Ashley and Phoebe Hirsch were among the few Weatherman members to join the first contingent of the Venceremos Brigade (VB) that departs for Cuba to harvest sugar cane.
    * December 6 - Bombing of several Chicago police cars parked in a precinct parking lot at 3600 North Halsted Street, Chicago. The WUO claims responsibility in Prairie Fire, stating it is a protest of the fatal police shooting of Illinois Black Panther Party leaders Fred Hampton and Mark Clark on December 4, 1969.
    * December 27-30 - Weathermen hold a "War Council" in Flint, Michigan, where plans are finalized to change into an underground organization that will commit strategic acts of sabotage against the government. Thereafter they are called "Weather Underground Organization" (WUO).
1970
    * January - Silas and Judith Bissell placed a home-made bomb under the steps of the R.O.T.C. building. The bomb was made from an electric blasting cap, an alarm clock, a battery and a plastic bag filled with gasoline and explosives.
    * February - The WUO closes the SDS National Office in Chicago, concluding the major campus-based organization of the 1960s. The first contingent of the VB returns from Cuba and the second contingent departs. By mid-February the bulk of the leading WUO members go underground.
    * February 16: A bomb is detonated at the Golden Gate Park branch of the San Francisco Police Department, killing one officer and injuring a number of other policemen (one seriously). No organization claims credit for either bombing. (See San Francisco Police Department Park Station bombing.)
    * On February 21, the house of Judge Murtagh, who presides over the Panther 21 trial, is fire-bombed by a WUO cell in New York City. The same night, molotov cocktails were thrown at a police car in Manhattan and two military recruiting stations in Brooklyn.
    * March - Warrants are issued for several WUO members, who become federal fugitives when they fail to appear for trial in Chicago.
    * March 6 - WUO members Theodore Gold, Diana Oughton, and Terry Robbins are killed in the Greenwich Village townhouse explosion, when a nailbomb they were constructing detonates. The bomb was intended to be planted at a non-commissioned officer's dance at Fort Dix, New Jersey.
    * March 30 - Chicago police discover a WUO "bomb factory" on Chicago's north side.
    * April 1 - Based on a tip Chicago Police find 59 sticks of dynamite, ammunition, and nitro glyerine in an apartment traced to WUO members. The discover of the WUO weapons cache ends WUO activity in this city.
    * April 2 - A federal grand jury in Chicago returns a number of indictments charging WUO members with violation of federal anti-riot laws. Also, a number of additional federal warrants charging "unlawful flight to avoid prosecution" are returned in Chicago based on the failure of WUO members to appear for trial in local cases. (The Anti-riot Law charges were later dropped in January, 1974.)
    * April 15 - The FBI arrests WUO members Linda Sue Evans and Dianne Donghi in New York with the help of WUO infiltrator, Larry Grathwohl.
    * May 10 - The National Guard Association building in Washington, D.C. is bombed.
    * May 21 - The WUO releases its "Declaration of a State of War" communique under Bernardine Dohrn's name.
    * June 6 - In a letter, the WUO claims credit for bombing of the San Francisco Hall of Justice, although no explosion has occurred. Months later, workmen locate an unexploded bomb.
    * June 9 - The New York City Police headquarters is bombed by Jane Alpert and accomplices. Weathermen state this is in response to "police repression." The bomb made with ten sticks of dynamite exploded in the NYC Police Headquarters. The explosion was preceded by a warning about six minutes prior to the detonation and subsequently by a WUO claim of responsibility.
    * July 23 - A federal grand jury in Detroit, Michigan, returns indictments against thirteen WUO members and former WUO members charging violations of various explosives and firearms laws. (These indictments were later dropped in October, 1973.)
    * July 25 - The United States Army base at The Presidio in San Francisco is bombed on the 11th anniversary of the Cuban Revolution. On the same day, a branch of the Bank of America is bombed in New York.
    * July 28 - Bank of America HQ in NYC is bombed around 3:50 AM. WUO claims responsibility.
    * September 15 - The WUO helps Dr. Timothy Leary escape from the California Men's Colony prison.
    * October 8 - Bombing of Marin County courthouse. WUO states this is in retaliation for the killings of Jonathan Jackson, William Christmas, and James McClain
    * October 10 - A Queens traffic-court building is bombed. WUO claims this is to express support for the New York prison riots.
    * October 11 - A Courthouse in Long Island City, NY is bombed. An estimated 8 to 10 sticks of dynamite are used. A warning was given around 10 min. prior to the 1:23 AM blast by the WUO.
    * October 12 - Around October 12 eight bomb explosions occur, Five in Rochester New York, Two in NYC, and One in Orlando FL. Despite WUO bomb warnings three persons are injured.
    * October 14 - The Harvard Center for International Affairs is bombed by The Proud Eagle Tribe of Weather (later renamed the Women's Brigade of the Weather Underground). WUO claims this is to protest the war in Vietnam. The bombing was in reaction to Angela Davis' arrest and was the first action undertaken by an all-women's unit of WUO.
    * October - Bernardine Dohrn, Katherine Ann Power, and Susan Edith Saxe were put on the FBI's Ten Most Wanted List
    * December - Fugitive WUO member Caroline Tanker, who fled the country for Cuba, is arrested by the FBI in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
    * December 5th - Five Weatherman are captured for trying to bomb First National City Bank of NY and other buildings on the anniversary of the death of Fred Hampton. These individuals subsequently plead guilty.
    * December 11th - Vivian Bogart and Patricia Mclean from the WUO are arrested after throwing an incendiary bomb at the Royal National Bank in NYC around 1:30 AM.
    * December 16 - Fugitive WUO member Judith Alice Clark is arrested on the Days of Rage indictments by the FBI in New York.]

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 08:00 PM

"The 3 that I threw out of a meeting at VCU wanted to fire-bomb the house of Warren Brandt, who was VCU's president at the time"

You should have reported such people to the FBI ... :-) of course that would 'confirm' that you were a member ....

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 06:59 PM

See page 14

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 06:49 PM

National Debt

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 05:56 PM

Won't matter, TIA 'cause the Repubs are hell-bent on only cumulative deficits rather than annual budgetary deficits... That's where they want to keep the discussion because, yeah, the cumulative deficit hiders the facts that they don't want people to know and that is the last 3 presidents who actually cut annual budget deficits were Carter, Clinton and Obama!!! No Repub has done it in 30 years...

BTW, before Saws gets on his high horse about Obama here's the facts which are readily verifiable...

Bush's last budget was the '09 budget... That's the way our system works... The outgoing president the incoming one with a budget in place...

Bush's last annual budget deficit was $1.4T...

Obama's first budget was the '10 budget and it came in with an annual deficit of $1.3T...

That means that Obama cut $100B in annual defict with his fgirst budget...

But righties and repubs don't want anyone to look at it that way because it doesn't fit their revisionist mythology...

Normal...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: TIA
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 04:32 PM

Horsepucky

The charts you need to analyze Sawz are here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Debt_Trend.svg

here

http://www.lafn.org/politics/gvdc/Natl_Debt_Chart.html

here

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html


Then let's talk deficits and debt.

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 03:24 PM

Clinton ran deficits throught all 8 years of his term, and one can go to the US Treasury Department and looking through the history of the total outstanding debt through Clintons term.

Every year Clinton was in office, the total national debt continued to climb.

How Clinton managed to claim a surplus was that while the general operating budgets ran deficits but Clinton borrowed from numerous off budget funds to make the on budget fund a surplus.

For example, in 2000, Clinton claimed a $230B surplus, but Clinton borrowed
$152.3B from Social Security
$30.9B from Civil Service Retirement Fund
$18.5B from Federal Supplementary Medical insurance Trust Fund
$15.0B from Federal Hospital Insurance Trust Fund
$9.0B from the Federal Unemployment Trust Fund
$8.2B from Military Retirement Fund
$3.8B from Transportation Trust Funds
$1.8B from Employee Life Insurance & Retirement fund
$7.0B from others

Total borrowed from off budget funds $246.5B, meaning that his $230B surplus is actually a $16.5B deficit.
($246.5B borrowed - $230B claimed surplus = $16.5B actual deficit).

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_surplus_did_the_US_have_when_Clinton_left_office#ixzz1Fl6APO6q

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 02:59 PM

Dohrn was a principal signatory on the group's "Declaration of a State of War" in 1970 that formally declared "war" on the U.S. Government, and completed the group's transformation from political advocacy to violent action. Dohrn also co-wrote and published the subversive manifesto Prairie Fire in 1974, and participated in the covertly filmed Underground in 1976.

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 02:21 PM

The problem here, GfinS, is that when it comes to the actual $$$ going to the Dems v. Repubs since the "Citizens United" ruling that for every dollar going to the Dems, 5 go to the Repubs...

I'm not excusing Soros... I'd like to see all corporate $$$ out of politics... And no "rangers" or whatevers that fleece/bully workers to contribute... This is a terrible way to try to run a democracy... Bring back a "Fairness Doctrine" and "debates" and "documentaries" and take the $$$ and propaganda outta politics...

But right now, the Repubs are winning the $$$ grab in a big way... No contest!!!

BTW, the so-called financial crisis in Wisconsin has been fabricated... Scott Walker came into office with a $100M surplus which he turned around and ***gave*** (as in welfare) to corporations (trusty Repub donors) in tax breaks and subsidies... If he hadn't done that then no crisis... Same game as Bush... Surpluses turned over to Boss Hog???

You may think that tyhje Dems and the Repubs are alike but the Dems have been much better stewards of the tax payer's $$$ for a long time now...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 01:54 PM

For ALL those 'ballyhooing' about the Koch Bros. and their funding of the 'opposition', I think it would be wise to consider George Soros, and what he funds...unless partisan bullshit is OK with a double standard!!!! Note: That I, too, very much disagreed, along with a lot of you about the Supreme Court's decision about campaign contributions from large corporations, blocs which, of course, means unions as well... but some of you are changing your tune. To those, maybe you can get into 'disco' and still claim to be folk and bluegrass, and blues players.
Sorry, to have to point out the obvious, AGAIN, as to some of your partisan double stands...but there it is, again!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 01:36 PM

Exactly, Strings...

"2nd amendment remedies" were not at all part of The Movement... The movement was a war of ideas, not a war of bullets... The right wing cannot fight a war of ideas because it loses those so it sidesteps those, uses propaganda (lies v. ideas) and threats of violence...

If anything the Tea Party Movement is the exact opposite of The Movement... 180 degrees different...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 01:28 PM

The only thing in my opinion that defines the Tea Party as a terrorist organization is that some of its members are packing heat to intimidate others. In this, they are like "Operation Rescue", an Orwellian title if there ever was one.


Otherwise, they are really stooges for the Koch Brothers and the Chamber of Commerce.

The use of labels such as Communist or Terrorist have always been thrown around to intimidate others. It's the weapon of smear merchants.

The 60's were pretty much about the Vietnam War as B says. Now it's time to question
the foreign policy toward Iraq and Afghanistan (not to mention Pakistan and Yemen)
and tie that into the so-called deficit. Reduce money for the "wars" and raise taxes on the rich and problem solved.

I hate to mention this though it could come true is that the only presidential candidate the Rethugs have that could beat Obama is Ron Paul. Libertarianism is a political disease that has infected conservative America. It drives the Tea Party with Rove and Norquist behind the scenes.

In the meantime, The Tea Party has little to do with the historical episode in Boston Harbor where the "Indians" were protesting against the corporate East India Tea Company.

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 01:05 PM

Why not any of the Chicago 7 on that list, Sawz???

Or. Dr. Benjamin Spock...

Or Martin Luther King...

Or Ralph Abernathy...

Or Malcolm X...

Or Dick Gregory...

Or Emmett (Fred) Shorter...

Or Stokley Charmickle...

But, heck... Even if you take the list above and not cherry-pick their speeches and writings but present them as an entire body of work in the context of the 60s, you won't find any who's body of work would constitute terrorism...

There was extreme speech back then on both sides and aa lot of it has to be taken in the context of the times... If you weren't part of the 60s then it's difficult to understand alot of it... Just as if you were not part of Greenich Village in the 50's then you might not have a clue what Gregory Corso, Laurence Ferlingetti of Lenny Bruce waer talking about (okay, I'll admit that as hard as I tried I never got Corso)...

I mean, everything has to be taken in the context of the times...

As for "communists"... Yeah, in order to have the shock value and the negotiation power some folks did advocate publicly communism... I know that lots of my commune friends were all about "commun"ism and some are still out there living their own little brand today... But even that has to be taken in the context of the 60s...

I mean, the 60s was a war of ideas... And those within the Movement were as diverse as folks are today... It's not like The Movement was 100% all about ____________ or_____________.... It was about all the "isms"... It was about a sneseless war... It was about corrupt government... It was about romanticism (classically speaking) where we each had the power of self-actualization (Mazlo) within us... And it was no walk in the park for those of us in The Movement because we came up an "ism"istic society: racism, sexism, ageism... Those were hard to overcome because they were3 so ingrained into us... I had a very hard time with sexism... I mean, I was still being taken aside by strong women for these little chats as late as '70 when I finally got that one internalized and made the fundamental changes... And, no,
those chats were no fun but we "pulled each other up"... That was part of the entire consciousness raising that we all went thru... And some made it, some faked it and some never gave a shit bacause they thought it was all about smokin' weed, gettin' laid and loud music...

But I can see how someone who wasn't there could easily miss the entire lesson, story and now want to rewrite what it really was about...

I'm sure that others here know exactly what I am talking about and can maybe retell the same story with different words but the main thing that came out of it for those of us who bought in was that peace needed a chance...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 12:15 PM

Prarie Fire by

Bernadine Dorn
Jeff Jones
Billy Ayres
Celia Sojourn

We are Communist Women and Men

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 12:13 PM

I'm still listening.....to BOTH sides....need more, and NOT just hearsay! Fair enough?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 11:08 AM

Bernardine didn't speak for The Movement... She spoke for herself and a small group of folks who real a tad over-radicalized, or FBI plants... It was hard to tell sometimes...

Might of fact, tho I knew *of* her she never attended any of the organizational meetings that I attended... The three I mentioned were all biggies... The one in Philly was probably the largest of the entire decade with well ove4r 1000 people representing various SDS or SDS affiliates...

BTW, The Movement has for decades been characterized as violent but with the exception of a few incidents, given the number of demonstrations and events that were organized it was 99+% non-violent...

I mean, even the murder of Fred Hampton has been sanitized to protect cops who shot him to death as he slept!!! But in the minds of those who refuse to accept The Movement as non-violent in order tom justify the gestapo tactics that were used against it there was this big "shoot out"... Shooting a sleeping man does not quite constitutre a "shoot out"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 10:25 AM

Hello. This is Bernardine Dohrn.

I'm going to read A DECLARATION OF A STATE OF WAR.

This is the first communication from the Weatherman underground.

All over the world, people fighting Amerikan imperialism look to Amerika's youth to use our strategic position behind enemy lines to join forces in the destruction of the empire.

Black people have been fighting almost alone for years. We've known that our job is to lead white kids into armed revolution. We never intended to spend the next five or twenty-five years of our lives in jail. Ever since SDS became revolutionary, we've been trying to show how it is possible to overcome the frustration and impotence that comes from trying to reform this system. Kids know the lines are drawn revolution is touching all of our lives. Tens of thousands have learned that protest and marches don't do it. Revolutionary violence is the only way.

Now we are adapting the classic guerrilla strategy of the Viet Cong and the urban guerrilla strategy of the Tupamaros to our own situation here in the most technically advanced country in the world.

Ché taught us that "revolutionaries move like fish in the sea." The alienation and contempt that young people have for this country has created the ocean for this revolution.

The hundreds and thousands of young people who demonstrated in the Sixties against the war and for civil rights grew to hundreds of thousands in the past few weeks actively fighting Nixon's invasion of Cambodia and the attempted genocide against black people. The insanity of Amerikan "justice" has added to its list of atrocities six blacks killed in Augusta, two in Jackson and four white Kent State students, making thousands more into revolutionaries.

The parents of "privileged" kids have been saying for years that the revolution was a game for us. But the war and the racism of this society show that it is too fucked-up. We will never live peaceably under this system.

This was totally true of those who died in the New York townhouse explosion. The third person who was killed there was Terry Robbins, who led the first rebellion at Kent State less than two years ago.

The twelve Weathermen who were indicted for leading last October's riots in Chicago have never left the country. Terry is dead, Linda was captured by a pig informer, but the rest of us move freely in and out of every city and youth scene in this country. We're not hiding out but we're invisible.

There are several hundred members of the Weatherman underground and some of us face more years in jail than the fifty thousand deserters and draft dodgers now in Canada. Already many of them are coming back to join us in the underground or to return to the Man's army and tear it up from inside along with those who never left.

We fight in many ways. Dope is one of our weapons. The laws against marijuana mean that millions of us are outlaws long before we actually split. Guns and grass are united in the youth underground.

Freaks are revolutionaries and revolutionaries are freaks. If you want to find us, this is where we are. In every tribe, commune, dormitory, farmhouse, barracks and townhouse where kids are making love, smoking dope and loading guns fugitives from Amerikan justice are free to go.

For Diana Oughton, Ted Gold and Terry Robbins, and for all the revolutionaries who are still on the move here, there has been no question for a long time now we will never go back.

Within the next fourteen days we will attack a symbol or institution of Amerikan injustice. This is the way we celebrate the example of Eldridge Cleaver and H. Rap Brown and all black revolutionaries who first inspired us by their fight behind enemy lines for the liberation of their people.

Never again will they fight alone.

May 21, 1970

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 10:18 AM

Thank you, f-troupe... I'd love to see that video... I mean, I was in on a lot of planning sessions and one of the things we talked about over and over was the "FBI plants" who were trying to not only infiltrate to gather information but also to try to get people to do stupid stuff...

The 3 that I threw out of a meeting at VCU wanted to fire-bomb the house of Warren Brandt, who was VCU's president at the time... And they had a couple folks who were with them until cooler heads prevailed...
These agents were everywhere...

And...

...600!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 09:10 AM

I have seen TV documentaries here in Australia some years ago about 'the Weathermen' with interviews with some of those 'in the movement' that backs up what Bobert has said.

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 08:33 AM

.....Appellant, Jerry Dale Lowe (Lowe), appeals his conviction and sentence for three violations of 18 U.S.C. Sec. 33 and one violation of 18 U.S.C. Sec. 924(c)(1). For reasons that follow, we affirm The events giving rise to Lowe's criminal prosecution occurred on July 22, 1993, at a picket line during a national strike by the United Mine Workers of America (UMWA)...

....As the vehicle driven by Kopplin approached the area where the pickets were waiting, his Ford Bronco was pelted by rocks, smashing the windshield. Hensley's vehicle suffered the same attack, with his windshield being broken. When York saw the rock attack, he initially slowed down and then sped up. As York was approaching the rock throwers, a bullet, fired from the creek side of Slab Fork Hollow Road from the area Lowe had positioned himself, entered the rear window of his pick-up truck, striking York in the head and killing him instantly. York's vehicle came to rest on the side of Slab Fork Hollow Road opposite the creek. The Chevrolet Club Cab's back passenger window was also struck by a bullet from the same area on the creek side of Slab Fork Hollow Road.

When Kopplin attempted to aid York, the pickets continued to throw rocks until Woods realized that York was seriously injured and told them to stop. At that time, the pickets complied. The pickets then began running in a direction away from the vehicle in which York lay dead.

Following the report of the shooting, the West Virginia State Police appeared at the scene with Corporal Bob Johnson (Johnson) taking the lead in the investigation. Statements were taken that night from a number of the miners who were present at the picket line. In his statement, Lowe admitted to participating in the rock attack, but specifically denied that he had been drinking.

The continuing investigation in the case revealed that the bullet that entered the back of York's head had a "left-hand twist," which immediately suggested to the officers that they were looking for a Colt-manufactured pistol. A Colt Trooper Mark III pistol was known to be a pistol that could produce a "left-hand twist" marking on a bullet. It was later learned that Lowe, on a day previous to the day York was killed, possessed a Colt Trooper Mark III pistol at the picket site, having transported it to the picket site in his truck. On two occasions during the investigation, Johnson and FBI Agent Brad Hoffert asked Lowe if he had ever owned, traded, or possessed a Colt Trooper pistol. On each occasion, Lowe denied owning, possessing, or trading such a pistol.....

More Here

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 07:54 AM

I can only testify to what I was part of and what discussions took place at the various meetings I was part of which included one high level one with William Kuntsler and Jerry Rubin organizers from about 30 colleges and universities from the Mid Atlantic region which ocured at UVa... Or one with Abbie Hoffman and others and reps from organizations from all the SDS chapters in the east coast which was held at Temple in Philadelphia... Or another one that I attended with SDS, White Panther and Black Panthers at Ann Arbor, Michigan...

My memories are vivid (I know it was the 60s but I remember them well)...

That's why I suggested tan "independent film company", with no dog in the race, doing a documentary while folks like me and the folks who are still around can testify as to what was really going on... There has long been this mythology about what SDS, SOC, the Weathermen, Yippies, were all about... I mean, there is still a wealth of resources that still available... Another 10 years??? Probably not so...

I mean, I met John Sinclair about 5 years ago an' he ain't getting no younger... He alone has alot of the story to tell...

Anyway, I'll stand behind my statement that the Weathermen were about terrorism...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 01:41 AM

Bobert: "...I mean, I was there and part of it... Terrorism wasn't our bag, GfinS... But that is exactly what J. Edgar Hoover wanted people to think was our bag so he planted his boys who tried very hard to make it our bag but his plants stuck out like sore thumbs and we threw them out of groups from campus to campus all across the country... "


My first re-action was..... "W-H-A-T??????!!!!????"

But, instead, can you back up your post??...with facts??...verifiable??
That's fair, isn't it?

I will take an off topic, partisan rant, as a "No"....
So, give it a shot. I'll be open minded...because I remember the history, too...so let's compare notes...fair enough??

Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 10:33 PM

No, not like the Weatherman...

The Weather Underground was 70% into anti-war and split evenly 15% about civil rights and 15% miscellaneous...

I mean, I was there and part of it... Terrorism wasn't our bag, GfinS... But that is exactly what J. Edgar Hoover wanted people to think was our bag so he planted his boys who tried very hard to make it our bag but his plants stuck out like sore thumbs and we threw them out of groups from campus to campus all across the country... Every organizer I knew told me about the plants... I threw 3 of them out... I mean, these guys hadn't even had enough time to grow enough hair before trying to infiltrate... And all they wanted to do was talk about violence... We put 'um out... Most other chapters did, too...

One day I'd love to see a documentary done by an independent film company on the Weather Underground... I mean, while there are still folks who can testify to what was real and was is mythology... It would be very nice to have the real story told rather than anecdotal stuff that really had nothin' to do with "the movement"...

Square business... I was there and I know...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 09:43 PM

The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??

You mean, like the 'Weathermen'???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 04:13 PM

Reagan was a tax and spend Republican. Today's Greedy Old Party wants to expand government to get into your bedroom and control women's bodies.

Republicans want to tax you for their goals and try to fool you that they are in favor
of cutting taxes. They are not in favor of cutting taxes for wealthy corporatists. They are not in favor of cutting taxes to support failed wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Republicans like taxes. Don't be fooled.

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 04:04 PM

The Tea Party is a concoction by the Koch-coction brothers. It's a "brown shirt" organization funded by corporate businessmen who want to keep the money they have
stolen from the tax-payer. (The Koch Brothers)

It is not a legitimate grass-roots movement although it pretends to be.

Packing heat is a method of intimidation but not different from the union-busting
scabs and goons by company reps in the past.

The Tea Party is a union-busting corporate sponsored organization that portends a
putsch-type takeover in Congress.

It is the extreme wing of the Republican Party.

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 07:42 PM

Tea Parties are for little girls with imaginary friends

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 07:43 PM

The Tea Party aren't terrorists, they're Robber Barons.

Mike Lee: Federal Child Labor Laws Are Unconstitutional (VIDEO)

Oh.
My.
God.

These people are unbelievable.

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 02:12 PM

New post-Giffords bumper sticker:

Guns don't kill people
The Tea Party Kills People.

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 01:03 PM

Are the Tea Party a terrorist organisation? possibly.

Are the US and UK governments terorist organisations? Definitely!

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:41 AM

Cross hairs on a map of Dems to be defeated/assasinated...

Second amendment remedies...

Don't retreat, reload...

Organized goons terrorizing town meetings...

Guess after yesterday's events we have have a definitive answer and stopping the vote count can't change it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: GUEST,Bobert, on the road...
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 08:53 PM

No one ever said the Times-Dispatch had a clue... Their news department has always left a lot to be desired...

BTW, who bailed out the banks???

Oh, and for the record... Any comment from any poli-sci professor from U or R is going to be slanted toward the Repubs as U of R is Repub territory...

The Tea Party is a clueless batch of dupes bought and paid for... Nothin' more and nuhtin' less... I mean, you look at the pictures of them... They very much resemble the demographic makeup of the KKK...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 11:27 AM

Richmond Times Dispatch:

Richmond, Va. --

Amid the Great Recession, passage of the federal stimulus package in February 2009 sparked a fire of discontent that spread rapidly across the country.

Fanned by bank bailouts and health-care legislation, what began as protests became a movement. Less than two years later, a federation of tea-party groups across the U.S. has become a potent political force united in distaste for taxes, big government, big spending, and the political elite.

"It's a mixture of conservative ideology, a return to founding principles, and this really vehement anti-establishment piece -- and all three of those strands have come together and given this its scope of power," said Daniel Palazzolo, a professor of political science at the University of Richmond.

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 11:05 AM

Narrow minded as in just focus on Reagan and ignore the inflation and unemployment he inherited from Carter?

Any time you want to present some data to support your "facts", I am ready and waiting.

Until then you remain someone who does not back up your claims.

You are missing an opportunity to prove me wrong.

By the way I never said you were wrong about Reagan. I went to check your claim and posted what I found. I also said I could be wrong but you refuse to prove anything. You would rather call people names and accuse them of lying than to back up your end.

Did you go to the tea party convention?

Richmond Tomes-dispatch:

While the overwhelming majority of attendees at the Greater Richmond Convention Center were white and older than 50, there were signs of a growing base for the tea party.

Daniel Cortez of Stafford County, for example, is half Hispanic and half Native American and considers himself "a tea-party guy."

Cortez, 59, is a disabled Vietnam War veteran and immigration activist who has been both a Democrat and Republican but never felt at ease on either side of the aisle. That changed when the tea party came along.

"What's inviting to me is that the tea party is representative of democracy at its true core," he said. "There's no partisanship. It's about who best can serve following the tenets of the Constitution -- responsible government, responsible spending and responsible taxation."

Cortez said the tea party is "absolutely not a conservative movement," calling it instead the "party of America."

To Cortez, the tea party is about patriotism and a renewed hope for the future.

"I was losing faith in my country, and the tea party gave me that faith back," he said. "I know my ethnicity, I am proud of my ethnicity, but I am more proud to be an American. That's what the tea party is all about to me."

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: GUEST,Bobert on the road
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 09:29 AM

Sorry, Sawz... But homey don't play yer narrow minded ball-games... I mean, I put up my sources then you bombard me with right winged blogs/lies and then next ting ya' know there is no longer any measningfull discussion but a war of right winged blogs and twisted stats coming from you... Sorry but I have a real like that isn't one that resmembles yer obsessive compulsive one...

BTW, iinteresting day in Richmomnd yesterday at the Richmond Folk Festival... Tens upon thousands of people who look one heck of alot like what "real America" looks like and then a pic on the front page of todays Richmond Times of the Tea Party Convention... The festival was a mix of cultures and races... The Tea Party pic??? More of the same old white people... Could have been a Klan rally, sans the sheets..

Gotta go...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 02:11 AM

So where is the data that supports "wages have been stagnant during the entire duration of Reagan's little experiement"?

How did wages do under the Carter administration with 38.9% inflation? Remember stagflation?

If my numbers were correct that means income went down by 40.46% during the 4 Carter years,

Still looking for your indexed numbers or whatever you have. You do have some data tho backup your claims don't you?

Other wise my numbers must be right.

By the way I have never called you a dumb ass or stupid or anything except a person that makes claims and is unable to back them up with facts.

What do you call someone like that?

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: GUEST,Bobert on the road
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 07:49 PM

No, Sawz... Most wage stats are tied to an index... Mostly inflation... If a guy gets a 2% raise, fir instance and the inflation rate fir the year is 4% then he's out 2% in purchasing power... This is what has occured since the early 80's... Okay, there may be some years where there were modest gains, after indexing... These weere mostly in the late 90s but they were, at best, very modest... If we look at the entire 30 year period we see that wages for the working class (indexed) have been stagnant...

Here the rub... If we look at household that are in the upper 10% they have done exceedingly well...

That may not be a problem fir you but it it is a major problem fro our economy... Yeah, I am sure that most people who are rich would love fir the economy to just bounce back and that the working class would do better... The problem is that these folks are not being asked to participate in the recovery... They weren't asked to ante up for a war that many of them profited from mightially... And now they are funneling unprecidented amount of cash annoomously to defeat those who might ask them to be good neighbors... In other words, these folks are "takers"... They really don't give a shit about thwe working class if it means the slightest inconvience for them... They are sitting on hundreds of billions of dollars in cold, hard cash they they won't even invest in their own country???

Maggots!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Sawzaw
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 09:42 AM

lest I be accused of not answering questions, no I did not index them.

I assume that means to index them to inflation. If my assumption is wrong, let me know.

However no one has provided any evidence to the contrary so they must be correct.

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 08:22 AM

Jus' a qucik note: leaving for Richmond Folk Festival now and then on to NC so ya'll gonna have to fight with Sawz until I get back on a pudder, whenever that is...

BTW, did you index yer numbers yet, Swaz???

Gotta go...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Sawzaw
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 11:35 PM

"I don't want to present myself as some sort of singular figure. I think part of what's different are the times. I do think that for example the 1980 was different. I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it. I think they felt like with all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s and government had grown and grown but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating. I think people, he just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want clarity we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing."

I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Sawzaw
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 02:59 PM

Did you index yours perfesser? Where is the information about "wages have been stagnant during the entire duration of Reagan's little experiement"

I produced mine. Where are yours?

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 02:35 PM

And you shouldn't, Sawz... But what we do need to at the very least think about how some every civilized societies ended with homes burning and people killin' one another...

"Those who don't know history tend to repeat it"... Voltaire...

Lotta truth to that and to poo-poo the reality that these things can happen is being an irresponsible participant in a democrarcy...

As for your stats, Sawz... Now go back and "index" them... That is if you know what that means...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Sawzaw
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 01:49 PM

Sorry but I am not basing my life on a movie or a figment of someone's paranoid imagination.

That is a scare tactic.

If we don't pass this stimulus bill, the unemployment rate will go over 8% That's a scare tactic.

"wages have been stagnant during the entire duration of Reagan's little experiement"

After analyzing the data from the U.S. Department of Commerce
Table A-3: Selected Measures of Household Income Dispersion: 1967 to 2003 pages 36-37 which can be seen here

I find the following average income decreases and increases:

Up by %5.54 during the Nixon / Ford administration

Down by %1.56 during the Carter administration

Up by %5.29 during the Reagan administration

Up by % .12 during the Bush I administration

Up by %6.92 during the Clinton administration

That is if I am adding up the percentiles wrong. Maybe someone could check my results. I could be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 08:41 AM

BTW, this blind support for a failed economic system is "terrorism" in itself... Ask the folks who are seein' their American dfream run thru Boss Hog's dream-shredder... Lotta of that going on now with unprecidented evictions and foreclosures, homelessness, elderly folks having to take their adult children and their children in, poverty rates on the rise, etc., etc... Lots of different kinds of terrorism but this is one that the Tea Party has signed onto... That what I mean by "dupes" 'cause in the end most of the Tea Party folks will be victims of the failed system they are out beating the drum for continuing...

Go figure???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 08:18 AM

A 35 year old terriby flawed economic/political system won't/can't be overhauled with one party hell bent on using every concievable trick to prevent the changes that are needed to create a new and workable system...

It is apparent tickle-down voodoo economics has been bad for out working'middle class as it's wages have been stagnant during the entire duration of Reagan's little experiement...

And if left in place, there is a very real possibility of seeing the country fall into something that resembles "Madd Max, After the Thunderdome"... Or into something advocated by Ayn Rand in "Atlas Shrugged" (refernce of John Galt)...

Google up "Mad Max, After then Thunderdome" and you'll get my drift...

BTW, change isn't continuing to move wealth to the rich... That is voodoo economics...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Tea Party a Terrorist Organization??
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 11:02 PM

So Lobbyists did not write the Health care reform bill? Is that what you are saying B?

I think Obama said lobbyists would not have any influence any more. That was one of the main reasons people voted for him. He was going to change things. Hope and change.

Did he change anything or was he just bullshitting us to get elected?

Saddest part is he had the vast majority of the people behind him. A majority in the House and Senate. Politically like minded cronies abounded.

I was hoping he would change things. I was willing to cut him some slack. I think we need a change.

And what the hell is Thunderdome? Where is it at?