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Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?

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Subject: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Big Ballad Singer
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 05:16 PM

For me, it HAS to be either Robert Johnson or Leadbelly.

I can understand Robert's success in the 20s as a 'race' artist with the one or two popular records he made. He borrowed some guitar and vocal stylings from other popular blues singers and got lucky.

I can even understand why a bunch of stiff white guys from the UK and US would get all bothered by Robert's music... it's by turns spooky, moody and ribald.

But a LEGEND? Seriously? There were better guitarists and better singers by the score in his time. I think the mythos of the selling-to-Satan bit and the mysterious murder made a lot more of a legend out of Robert than his musical abilities would ever have.

Leadbelly... where do I begin? It's kind of creepy that a small enclave of white Yankee folksingers all found this mediocre guitarist and whiny singer so enthralling... I think it's because he was "AN AUTHENTIC NEGRO FROM THE SOUTH WHO WAS IN PRISON" and basically sold himself to the people.

I mean, really... I have a recording of Leadbelly singing "Haul Away, Joe" that is downright laughable. The guitar is out of tune, the lyrics he makes up make no sense half the time, especially not in a seafaring context, and I am sure that anyone who tried to haul sail to his off-tempo wailings would still be adrift at sea today.

But you take the "authentic negro guitarist who went to prison" and give him to whites with money, and WHAM! He's the "king of the 12 string guitar."

King, my foot.

All of this is, of course, and with apologies to anyone I un-necessarily offend, my own humble opinion.

Who do YOU think is the MOST over-rated folk artist that is regarded as some sort of "legend"?

Regards,

BBS

P.S. I don't discount the idea that one's "story" makes for a good part of their ability to sell themselves to people... Woody, for instance. But compare Woody's writing, poetry, painting, drawing, activism and downright counter-cultural bent to ANYTHING that a Robert Johnson or a Leadbelly ever did, and there's just no comparison. Someone like Woody Guthrie is a legend because he influenced the way America thought, sang, acted as citizens and entertained themselves. Someone like Johnson or Ledbetter simply made ignorant whites go "ooohhh!" at something they thought was some unattainable mysterious "mojo" that they didn't have... until their record labels paid them good money to ape the blues guys and get rich.

Anyway, carry on...


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 05:24 PM

I think your post says more about you than Johnson or Leadbelly.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 05:28 PM

SOrry to say it, but I am inclined in Will's direction here. I have a lot of respect for Leadbelly, as an example, and I believe that the description you proffer of him indicates you are suffering from a tin ear for the genre.


A


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 05:29 PM

There were better guitarists and better singers by the score in his time.

It might be interesting if you were to say who they were, and why you think they were superior?


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 06:00 PM

I agree with Crow Sister. I'd much rather hear you praise the 20 guitarists that were better than Leadbelly, than hear you denigrate Leadbelly.

That way, I might even learn something.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 06:03 PM

What is the point of this thread? We can all boast about our musical taste and how it's clearly better than other peoples' taste, but why do that?


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 06:14 PM

Johnny Cash or Bob Dylan.

I like Robert Johnson, but can see the OP's point about Leadbelly.

Captain Beefheart is an acquired taste too. Was very underwhelming live.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Smedley
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 06:22 PM

Bruce Springsteen (if he has achieved legend status, which I fear he has, to some).


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 06:25 PM

No offence (offense) meant to anyone, but this kind of thread denigrates us as people and musicians.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 06:28 PM

These threads are nonsensical.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 06:31 PM

Find the most legendary legend, and there's your answer.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 06:39 PM

I think leadbelly was the best 12 string guitarist[of that era] i have heard,however I think Blind Lemon Jefferson[6 string guitar]was even better.
leadbelly is surely excused one or two duff songs.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:03 PM

Life is too short to waste time on this sort of nonsense. "Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow ..." you know the rest.

Praising musicians whom you believe to be unjustly ignored or under-rated may serve some useful purpose. But denigrating artists whom you regard as over-rated is just a roundabout way of boasting about how superior your own taste is to that of the common herd.

Why not just enjoy your favourite music - as player,singer,dancer or listener - and leave categorising and classifying to the librarians, who at least get paid for doing it.


Wassail!


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:25 PM

Surely we all think our own taste is superior? The problem is getting others to acknowledge it..


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:39 PM

These threads are complete bloody rubbish, so let's just say Dylan and leave it at that, eh? ;-)


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:50 PM

Xanadu


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:51 PM

Well, re: Robert Johnson and Leadbelly and other such early singer-guitarists, they were the ones who showed the way. Others, coming along later, learned from these "legends" and some managed to go on to exceed their skills.

Let's put it this way: compared to a 747 or a modern jet fighter, the first "aeroplane" that flew at Kitty Hawk in 1903 wasn't much of an aircraft. But it showed that it could be done!!

I had a friend (dead now) who heard Leadbelly live at one of the Swarthmore College folk festivals back in the late 1940s. He said that, on stage, in front of a audience, nattily dressed in his bow tie and dark pinstripe suit, Leadbelly was like a Force of Nature!

This same friend once heard someone putting Leadbelly down in much the same way the OP is doing. My friend remarked, "That guy, criticizing Leadbelly like that, doesn't know what the hell he's talking about! He's like a Chihuahua yapping at a lion!"

Don Firth

P. S. Now there is one well-known singer from the Sixties whom many people frequenting this web site seem to regard as some kind of god. But all things considered, I'm of the opinion that he's grossly overrated. Wrote a few good songs (stole some others and claimed they were his--this is documented), phony as a three-dollar bill (made up a whole fictional personal background), and can't sing for sour applesauce (based on a good ear and sound musical judgment). In addition to this, he was notorious for having walked all over people who had helped him early on.

But not wanting to be stoned in the streets by his legion of worshippers, I'll leave that for your speculation.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:52 PM

There are several, and thankfully I've completely forgotten who they were.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:55 PM

Well, sorry but I think he has a right to his opinion. He may be wrong in a lot of our books, but he gave reasons why he felt Johnson and Ledbetter were overrated. The point he makes about legend being an important element to greatness is well made. I do think some of the hero worship of RJ as The King of the Delta Blues gives influences like Son House rather short shrift. The criticism of Ledbetter as "AN AUTHENTIC NEGRO FROM THE SOUTH WHO WAS IN PRISON" walks the racism line, but I do think there is some accuracy to that point, enough to keep from crossing the line.
I think The Kingston Trio were about as faithful to the folk tradition as Faith Hill is to the country-western tradition and Celtic Woman to Irish Trad music. Nothing wrong with saying who you don't like...long as it aint everybody.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 08:12 PM

Of course he has a 'right to an opinion' ( though I've never been sure from where this right is to be verified) however, There's absolutely no reason to express opinions....unless there is a good reaon.This is just a silly thread, I'll only think about it every time i hear 'Midnight Special'.( there are many more , of course, but that one on its own deserves immortality.)


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 08:25 PM

Atlantis is the most over-rated legend.

Or maybe the unicorn.

Bigfoot however is everything they say he is - and more.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 08:25 PM

Of course he has a right to his stupid opinion, and we have the right to say it's stupid.

But Leadbelly, whiny? Somebody buy this man a dictionary.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Big Ballad Singer
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 08:26 PM

Anyone who read racism in what I wrote is just laying for a fight. I am nobody's bigot. I get marginalized enough to know that it hurts, no matter what characteristic of a person is being discriminated against. So let's please just drop all the racist insinuations. Now.

My point about Leadbelly is NOT that he was not talented. He was.
My point is NOT that he was unskilled. He was, as another poster said, the Wright Brothers' plane before the jets. Well said.

I simply meant that the "legend" thing is at least due as much to some people's need for "authenticity" and "the real McCoy" as it is due to his playing, singing, writing, arranging or whatever else.

Take a group like the Carolina Chocolate Drops. They never picked cotton or were owned as slaves... does that make their excellent musicianship and carrying-on of their musical legacy any less "authentic"? What if they sucked as musicians? Would they still be welcomed as "authentic" whatever? No, not today, because there are multi-millionaires out there who can't play, but they can sell. The modern recording industry doesn't need "authentic", they need "marketable".

In the "folk boom" era, however, "authenticity" was going to sell a LOT more (to the earnest folkie crowd) than musical excellence alone.

Oh, and as far as a certain curly-headed demigod goes, I think he flat-out USED the folk boom and the earnest kind-heartedness of those who were trying to build up the Village scene to his advantage. Wrote some very memorable but TOTALLY derivative songs (the ones that weren't plain stolen) and made his millions being whatever the times wanted him to be. Earnest young Woody-ite, rebellious 60s iconoclast, 70s grizzled road vet and then Jesus Freak, 80s sit-on-my-ass-and-collect-royalties, and then into the 90s and beyond, taking on the "classic rock legend" costume and writing some decent roots-rock.

Legend? In terms of pop stardom and the ability to navigate nearly 40 years' worth of fickle radio and consumer attitudes, YES.

Legend as a writer, singer, or what have you? No.

Willie Nelson... Now, THERE'S a legend for you.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 08:32 PM

Erm....still know and enjoy many songs by Leadbelly....enjoyed them before I knew they were by, or had even heard of Leadbelly. Your other Icons...trying hard to think of anything memorable.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 09:25 PM

Compare and contrast -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCf60f_sAA0&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj3s8qq3kU4&feature=related


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 09:38 PM

That Little David play on your harp guy.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 09:52 PM

Sid Vicious


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 10:20 PM

Within the last year, PBS did a special with James Taylor. I have never liked James Taylor, but I did watch and listen through four songs. I tried; I really tried to enjoy the performance. Those twenty minutes or so re-confirmed my opinion--James Taylor IS the most over-rated performer, legend or no.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 10:40 PM

Aw hell John.....You just needed to have some insight into JT and you'd have had a good time watchin'..........If another thing pops up on him, here's some good info that'll make it more fun for you: Did you know you can sing "Fire and Rain" to almost any James Taylor song?

Also, if you're unaware of it, The Mudcat Cafe has for many years operated th Neil Young Center for the Terminally Screwed out in Montana. Really....try a search on it or just NYCFTTS. A few years back we were able to add a new wing which also houses the James Taylor Catatonic Blandness Rehab Clinic.

Admission is free for 'Catters and the Insanevac helicopter is available for emergency cases.   Everyone admitted gets a kazoo and learns the Oscar Meyer wiener ditty!!!

Tell ya' what.....Big Ballad Singer might want to check the place out 'cause he seems a bit overwrought about Dylan.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Big Ballad Singer
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:21 AM

Spaw,

Nah... he's a great one. I just like to call 'em as I see 'em. I have been behind the scenes AND on the stage for too long to be star-struck by anyone that passes for a "legend" these days.

Tug... what other Icons?

Anyway, again, not trying to say that anyone's NOT TALENTED. Just trying to say that I think there are a lot more things turning people into "legends" than their playing and singing. Money, for one. Marketability. A willingness to be the "you" that sells... the "you" that someone pays you to be.

All just my opinion and not scanned for absolute coherence nor for compatibility with what anyone else thinks.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:00 AM

They may well be overrated legends Big Ballad Singer, but it's something you will never be.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:45 AM

Surely the subject line was supposed to be:

The Who are THE most over-rated 'legends'.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:54 AM

To a certain - and large - degree, to appreciate Robert Johnson's guitar playing it is helpful if you also play the guitar and have tried to play it his style. I've tried, and I can tell you that it's near impossible to capture the way he plays with all the subtle nuisances. I'm a pretty good guitarist but I can't come close. And as for Robert's singing...well!
And don't start me on Leadbelly. He is fantastic!


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 04:16 AM

I first heard Leadbelly when, back in 1960, a friend played me a record called "Grasshoppers In My Pillow". I knew absolutely nothing about Leadbelly - the "legend", the events of his birth, life, death - sweet f.a. Let me tell you that I was instantly hooked - by the voice, the guitar, the overall sound. As Don Firth so aptly put it above - a force of nature. I played it again just now, and it has lost none of its power.

Quite apart from any of that, Leadbelly had a huge repertoire of very varied and different material - a goldmine for folklorists such as the Lomaxes. In that sense, I think he was unique. If he was taken up by the white intelligentsia and folklorists, that was none of his doing - I'm sure he found being taken up by those people infinitely preferable to sharecropping or labouring or playing endless nights in juke joints and bars. Or being in prison again.

I agree with you that there are many modern performers about whom the word "legend" may be a misnomer, but I think you picked two very poor examples of that with Johnson and Leadbelly.

However, when you start threads like this, what are you really trying to achieve? Do you want it to turn into a long list of musicians being dissed by a long list of 'Catters? If so, why? In the end it's pointless because all taste is personal, and such a list is merely a series of personal negatives. How much more positive to start a thread which celebrates your heroes, your favourites - or one which analyses technique, performance, musical skills so that we can all benefit. To say that performers may be subject to the hype of the media of the time is, quite frankly, to state the bleedin' obvious.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: alex s
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 06:21 AM

Here here, Will (or is it hear hear ? - that's another thread).
How about closing this thread - Will has said it all.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: cetmst
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:08 AM

I was at Leadbelly's Swarthmore College performance which Don Firth mentioned in a previous thread and remember being impressed by the powerful personality - as well as the physical power - of the man.
I was also impressed by the folks who sponsored (some have said exploited) him and made a music genre, otherwise obscure, avaliable.

I also agree that ratings of best, top 40, 10 worst, etc., are useless. The performers and performances are there. If you like them, listen; if not, go elsewhere. Have you ever noticed how the media speaks only in superlatives - newscasts, weather channels,reviews? - Charles


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:15 AM

BBS. Since no-one else appears to have mentioned it, far from being a success (minor or otherwise) in the 1920s, Robert Johnson did not record until 1936; a fact you would have picked up on if you'd bothered to listen to him ast all closely.

As for your attack on Leadbelly. Anyone can tear an artist to pieces with a few badly chosen adjectives, as you chose to do. The trouble is they just don't mean anything.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: dwditty
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:22 AM

Pretty much anyone who has achieved "legend" status is overrated. There are countless "unknown" musicians who play better and sing better than the legends. The Legends have put together a package that puts their music across in a way that reaches many (but by no means all) people. Each of us is free to assign our own suckability rating to them, as you have done BBS.

Side note on JT. I, too, have never been a fan, but found myself at a JT/Carole King concert recently. I still do not like JT any better, and it would not occur to me to put on a Carole King record, but I must admit, I thought their show was great.

dw


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:30 AM

Elvis.

There, I've said it. Fire at will.

Peter


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:30 AM

was that Frank Hamilton singing with the Weavers[ MUDCAT String Singer], in Snails post.
Ithought both versions of Irene were good, but LEADBELLYS WAS REALLY POWERFUL.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 10:21 AM

GSS, I'm pretty sure that's the original Weavers lineup: Ronnie Gilbert, Lee Hays, Fred Hellerman and Pete Seeger.

I misread the OP's screen name as Big Balled Singer and thought now there's an over-rated legend in the making.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: meself
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 11:09 AM

Tunesmith (above): "it's near impossible to capture the way he plays with all the subtle nuisances"

I don't know if that's a mistake, but I like it.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 11:18 AM

"Here here, Will (or is it hear hear ?"

For what it's worth, it definitely is "Here here!", and not "Hear hear."
But for some reason most people get it wrong and the other way around. Not sure why.



Otherwise, I really don't know enough (anything) about the early Blues to have an opinion on either the validity or otherwise of the "legend" appellation ascribed to Leadbelly & Robert Johnson.

So I'd still genuinely appreciate it if BigBalladSinger would offer us a smattering of the dozens of other singers and guitarists around during that era, that he thinks were greater artists.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Big Ballad Singer
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 11:25 AM

Dave H,

"...something [I] will never be."

And you know me or a god-damned thing about me, how, exactly?

Fred Mc:

How would LISTENING to Johnson's music closely inform me that he recorded in 1936? Oh, and that was an honest mistake... I know a ton more about Johnson and a lot of other Delta artists than you are wrongly assuming. I was at my desk and not near my altar to Robert. SO sorry.

DWDitty, THANK YOU. I don't know why several assholes have decided that THEIR opinion of Leadbelly not only negates mine, but gives them license to attack me personally.

Joe, or whoever, go ahead and close this f-ing thing. I never realized how wrong it was to have an opinion different from the obviously exalted personages who have poured out their wrath on this poor sinner.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 11:33 AM

"I know a ton more about Johnson and a lot of other Delta artists than you are wrongly assuming."

I'm not assuming anything myself. But I would appreciate a response to my request... Eh?


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 11:40 AM

No I don't know anything about you Big Ballad Singer, except that you have come here to slag off two popular singers who are both dead and can't answer back, and do it without the courage to use your own name.

Dave Hanson, my real name by the way.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 11:58 AM

I am amazed at the amount of indignation that Big Ballad Singer has created with this thread. Is it sacrilegious to say Leadbelly and Johnson are overrated? Do we have to tiptoe around when saying the same about Dylan? Why should BBS have to provide a list of people he truly admires to counter the ones he doesn't? And why in hell are people suggesting this thread be closed?

If you disagree with BBS, why not just say why and give your reasons as he's done? I don't see this thread as trolling, and I think you set a dangerous precedent by calling for censorship by the moderators because BBS had the nerve to badmouth Leadbelly. It seems to me Leadbelly's achievements can contradict his opinion on their own merit with just a little help from his admirers here.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:01 PM

Dear Big Ballad Singer, whoever you are - of course other people's opinion will "negate" yours, because they don't share yours. Why should your opinion be the only one that counts? And I'll ask again what the point of this thread is ...it is ALL subjective. My taste is my own, yours is yours. I love tomatoes, my husband doesn't - what does that say about us as human beings, or tomatoes? Nothing of any value at all. HE would say tomatoes are over-rated, I wouldn't.
If you don't like a particular singer there's no reason why you should subscribe to other people's valuation of them, but there's also no reason to start a Mudcat thread about it.
But hey, I've been around Mudcat long enough to know that some people just love this kind of nonsense so I'll bow out of this thread (and others like it) permanently. Oh - yes, that's my real name, too. I don't mind standing fully behind my point of view.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:06 PM

Why should BBS have to provide a list of people he truly admires to counter the ones he doesn't?

Because I asked politely in response to a statement made, and I'm curious! I wasn't throwing down the gauntlet!

'And why in hell are people suggesting this thread be closed?"

I don't know! I really don't agree with censoriousness on Mudcat which is a music discussion site. And I don't agree with personally directed attack either, because someone airs a (perhaps challenging) view about music - which is in theory what we're all here for...


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:06 PM

Little David and his harp.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:12 PM

Crow Sister, I personally think RJ and Leadbelly WERE legendary but here's a list of some contemporary bluesmen worth looking up on Youtube for the basis of comparison: Skip James, Son House, Blind Lemmon Jefferson, Lonnie Johnson, Big Bill Broonzy, Blind Blake, Tommy Johnson, Mississippi John Hurt, Bukka White and my personal favorite, Charlie Patton. There are many, many more but this is a good start. Note that I confined the list to other guitar playing male performers but there were some wonderful blueswomen of that era as well, Ma Rainey, Bessie Smith and Memphis Minnie, and vocal groups like the Mississippi Sheiks.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:13 PM

Hey, Crow Sister, I'm with you on all of that!


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:23 PM

Overrated "legend"?

Umm, I don't like Dylan. But I can't argue the case that he's not a "legend", other than quite simply I don't like his music.

For me the biggest FAIL for the award of "music legend" in modern times has to be Oasis. Pleasant but average melodies, smothered in swaggering Scally 'wannabe Beatles' bullshit production and propeganda.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:31 PM

Thanks Neil D. In fact I do recognise one or two of the names there! I'll see what examples of those artist's work I can find online..


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:40 PM

Eric Clapton.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:47 PM

Dick Miles.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Big Ballad Singer
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:49 PM

There's a few of you that still don't get it...

I COULDN'T CARE LESS WHAT ANYONE THINKS OF RJ, LEADBELLY OR MY OPINION.

I asked who YOU thought was over-rated. YOUR opinion about music and musicians, not your opinion about me or my choices.

Jeez... some of you just HAVE to argue.

It was a question of opinion. I gave mine.

Fuck the real-name thing. I don't care to use mine. I don't give a shit who thinks that demonstrates some lack of integrity. What, I'm less of a "man" now because I picked on poor, old, dead blues singers and didn't use my real name? Waaah. Get over it; you're just not that important.

And, yes, for the record, I enjoy Blind Blake a LOT more than RJ or Leadbelly.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:50 PM

I have read some half-baked claptrap in my time on Mudcat, but I think the original post on this thread is possibly the finest example ever.So I'm afraid I shall just continue worshipping Leadbelly and Robert Johnson, whatever the pseodonymous driveller thinks.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:55 PM

A recent Times leader wondered why Ringo Starr hadn't got a knighthood. Ringo Starr?!!? I could hardly believe my eyes. I have thought for 47 years that he was, & is, the luckiest man in the world: to have happened to be the at-the-time drummer {& not a particularly talented one as that, as Lennon famously said; & no, I don't believe he was joking} when that otherwise outstandingly talented group happened to make it, which might have happened at any time round about the early 60s.

Even 'Sir' Paul is a bit lucky, as the real talent belonged to the one who died who always let him share the writing credits. Come on now, what song did Wings, or has McCartney since Lennon died, produce[d] to compare with all those great Beatles'"Lennon/McCartney" credited #s? Go on. Name one...

But "Sir" Ringo!? Don't make me laugh, Mr Editor of The Times.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:58 PM

Little David and his harp.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 01:08 PM

damn it, Q, stop goin on about Dave and his Harp!


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 01:23 PM

A recent Times leader wondered why Ringo Starr hadn't got a knighthood. Ringo Starr?!!? I could hardly believe my eyes. I have thought for 47 years that he was, & is, the luckiest man in the world: to have happened to be the at-the-time drummer {& not a particularly talented one as that,...

I read a quote somewhere, to the effect that the Beatles were dying off in inverse order of their musical talent, and, therefore, Ringo might live forever.

Peter


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 01:24 PM

I've linked this thread to a number of other threads covering the "worst" of whatever in music. I don't know exactly how you'd describe this classification. If it's the "best," then it's a superlative. If it's the "worst," is it still a superlative - or is it a negative superlative.
Anyhow, I've found in my nearly 14 years at Mudcat, that threads on superlatives don't usually work very well, since it's all mostly a matter of pure opinion, not information. So, then they end up being squabbles.
That being said, I have to say that I don't really listen to Leadbelly or Robert Johnson for pleasure, although I agree that they made significant contributions to folk music. But their recordings grate my ears, as do most old recordings. Recordings did not become listenable until the 1940s, and even then sound quality often left much to be desired.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 01:54 PM

Recordings did not become listenable until the 1940s, and even then sound quality often left much to be desired.

What? What? (!) I've just been listening to the Original Dixie Jazz Band playing "Palesteena" - a little rough and ready around the edges in sound quality (1920s), I grant you, but still highly delightful. Think of all the wonderful music you'd miss if you listened to nothing before, say, 1950s...

Actually, some marvellous work was been done by people by John R.T. Davies in England (d. 2004) in sound restoration of jazz classics from old, original 78rpm recordings. But even without the likes of JRTD, I still love old shellac recordings.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 02:06 PM

RingoStarr , replaced PETE BEST, as I understand it because he could keep time, Ringo Starr, had a dry turn of wit, it was he who coined the phrase A Hard Days Night
Ringo was an ok drummer much better than Dave Clark., and better than PeteBest, Ithink he was also the peacemaker in the group.
PaulMacartney has written some great songs, Yesterday , ALL MY LOVING, and a few others.
Macartney wrote more than Lennon, but a lot of their best work were joint efforts,so can we stop this childish rubbish, about who was the best.
there were three good writers in the Beatles,Paul John George, assisted musically by George Martin


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 02:35 PM

Back in the mid-1950's, a friend of mine (non-singer, but an appreciator) got an extraordinary set of records:   Leadbelly's Last Sessions on Folkways. A boxed set. I don't recall how many LPs, but it contained several. Recorded by Leadbelly just a year or two before he died (1949).

Several of us sat around one evening and listened to the whole set. Force of Nature indeed! Leadbelly talked some about his life and experiences and sang a lot! I coveted like crazy, but at the time, I couldn't afford to get a set of my own.

I do sing a few selected songs that Leadbelly sang, but I'm primarily a singer of British and American ballad-type songs. When I attempt a hard-core Leadbelly song, I sound like a bass-baritone version of Richard Dyer-Bennet trying to do the same song, so discretion is the better part of valor. Besides, I can't do blues for s**t, so I don't (although Leadbelly is a whole lot more wide-ranging than simply sticking to blues).

I used to do "Black Girl," and a pretty good job of it, too, or so some people told me. I didn't try to imitate Leadbelly, I just sang it straight out (but I did use Leabbelly's guitar work, especially the bass runs). Then a couple of white acquaintances took me to task for singing it, saying that they didn't think it was appropriated for a white guy like me to sing it and that they found it offensive. Hmmph!! (I had a black friend who used to ask me to sing it!)

On one of the records, Leadbelly expressed an admiration for Gene Autry and proceeded to sing "When It's Springtime in the Rockies," trying to sound as much like Gene Autry as he could. Pretty funny, but a darned good attempt!!

A couple of years ago, I wandered into a used record and CD store and stumbled on a CD boxed set of "Leadbelly's Last Sessions" and instantly reached for my wallet. But I'd already bought a couple of things somewhere else and didn't have enough wampum with me. I came back the following day, but the set was gone. Someone had beat me to it.

But—I just discovered that the set is still available!!    HERE.

Thanks for reminding me!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:00 PM

I found the Leadbelly Last Sessions recordings on Spotify, and I'm listening now. I think the sound quality is far better than earlier recordings, and that makes this set a pleasure to listen to.
Having Spotify makes me wonder if I should stop or curtail buying recordings. Spotify doesn't have everything, but it has a whole lot of wonderful music - including what seems to be the entire Folkways catalog. But gee, I'd hate to have this source dry up and deprive me of my Folkways access.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:05 PM

I think the term "legend" as used in this thread and in other similar contexts is totally meaningless. It strikes me as being in the same category as "celtic music" a term dreamed up by marketing men, originally applied to performers seen as influential but all to often simply popular. It is also now so grossly overused as to be essentially meaningless.

It is much more useful to refer to someone as influential as that tells you more about their importance and I think that Leadbelly was and is influential.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:06 PM

By the way, CS, I would add Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee (both separately and together) to the list you were given earlier.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Banjiman
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:07 PM

Joe,

Spotify pays artists almost nothing........ which I guess makes it a good deal for the listener but a crap deal for the artist.

Please don't stop buying recordings or artists will starve!!

Apologies about the thread drift but I've got nothing to add to such a negative thread.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:13 PM

Well, Banjiman, I found myself buying a lot of CDs I've listened to once...or less often than that. I like Spotify very much for exploring music, but don't mind buying music that I'm going to listen to in the car and other locations. I suppose Spotify works well for performers who have tens of thousands of fans, but not for those who appeal to a limited audience.
But Spotify is an excellent place for historic recordings that I'm going to listen to only for research - and for most of them, the performers are long dead.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 04:22 PM

There is a Scots singer/songwriter that I just can not listen to..I had to leave his concert. I thought I just didnt' like his voice for some reason, but then I have heard other people sing his songs..they have what sounds to my ears like a built-in whine..not in terms of words but almost the tunes themselves. They truly hurt my ears. But I don't want to insult him because other people are quite fond of him. mg


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 05:02 PM

God, Jesus and the ilk.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 05:15 PM

Leadbelly's "Fannin Street" is a tour-de-force that proves Leadbelly's worth all by itself. And there were so many more.

The unaccompanied side of his Last Sessions, from the night he didn't bring his guitar, is a musical revelation. It proved the depth of the man


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 05:57 PM

Might as well weigh in....First of all, some of the legends named were because of FORM....had the technology of recording been what it is today, back then, the singing and the ear, of how to sing may have been a lot different. Back then, it was mostly just the song form!

Today we have more sophistication in the recording end, but few leaps in innovation, as to form.....(except yours truly, of course)....as far as Ringo, he was/is a lot better drummer than you might think! Just because he doesn't do a bunch of flashy solos or fills, you might think he's not that great, BUT, you could set a clock to him...plus, he made a transition from being left handed, to drumming right handed, and unless....you know the subtle difference in what he was/is doing, and unless you are a drummer, you might not appreciate some of his little nuances.....Knighthood???...well that might be for the revenue brought by the Beatles, who were innovative both to form, and recording techniques!!...not to mention influential in the music, and cultural scene!...I mean to say, along with that, ..How many of us all began playing guitars, as a result of the Beatles' popularity??

Taylor??...Not impressive, especially when he's doing some of Carol Kings songs...but that is just a personal preference. King??..Not too crazy about her voice, but ya' got to cut her slack, for the song mill she worked..during the late 50's and 60's. At that time she was churning out songs, for other 'artists', for the measly price of $25.00 a song...with no residuals or royalties!!! So she later did her own album.....which never knocked me out, but their are some 'considered classics on there.

Other than that, one has to point out, that sometimes its not a matter of 'TASTE'...but rather 'PERCEPTION DEFICIT DISORDER'!!!!!!!

Oh, speaking of which, Dylan??....I thought other people( Byrds Turtles, Peter Paul and Mary, etc etc) doing his stuff was often better, or at least 'easier' to listen to, but a legend?...absolutely!

and the harp player the 'Q' keeps referring to...don't know him, so how much of legend could he be??

Oh well, happy listening!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 06:10 PM

I'm Big Dave and I blow harp and I'm definitely over-rated.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:21 PM

Lonesome, I keep hearing about this little David, but no no one can name a single song written by him.
He is definitely over-rated.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:23 PM

For what it's worth, it definitely is "Here here!", and not "Hear hear."
But for some reason most people get it wrong and the other way around. Not sure why.

I am unconvinced this is right. I always assumed it to mean a shortening of hear ye year ye..and a quick google search shows several sites saying hear hear is the correct spelling..I don't have time to do an exhaustive search. Perhaps someone can but I do not believe here here is right. mg


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: frogprince
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:26 PM

Songs by "Little David": Psalm 1, Psalm 2, Psalm 3....
(At least that's how the legend goes).


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:41 PM

He was small but...oh my! He slew big Goliath, and so on...


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:51 PM

I always thought that was one of the more suggestive lines in music:
    Little David was small but...oh my!


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:52 PM

According to Oxford it's "hear hear", no mention of "here here".


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:56 PM

It means he knew how to handle his sling shot, Joe. I would have thought you'd have learned that at the Seminary.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 08:49 PM

He sang no goodnight song for Goliath.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 08:55 PM

Well, that's what they say it means, anyway. But. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 08:57 PM

The beatles are way over-rated. At least I think so.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 11:44 PM

In regards to Little David, to some, he is over rated, to others not even rated enough....like I said, "It's not a matter of 'taste' but of perception deficit disorder!"....Goliath and the Philistines underrated him, and look at where it got them!......

...........and 4000 some odd years later, we're still talking about him!.........Critics!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 01:54 AM

"I do not believe here here is right. mg"

Yes, good point. I was sure it was the other way around for ages after reading something about it.. But it seems I've been wrong!


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 01:56 AM

It's always an ego boost to piss on something other people really like, isn't it? And the more people like it, the bigger the ego boost. That's why I love threads like this. It helps us all feel better about ourselves, and in these days of ubiquitous declining self confidence, that's a real public service.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 03:37 AM

I think most modern music fans - raised in the "rock era" - would relate to Robert Johnson's - and Leadbelly's - music more than Blind Blake's is because their music ( i.e. Johnson's and Leadbelly's ) is more intense and, indeed, was a lot more of a inspiration for modern rock musicians.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:44 AM

Q - I heard there was a secret chord that David played and it pleased the Lord.
'nuff said


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: matt milton
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 08:09 AM

Massively stupid thread.

Robert Johnson invented it. End of story. Sure, he didn't come from nowhere - nothing does. But that doesn't mean he isn't in all likelihood the most 'sui generis' guitarist ever. I've never heard a guitarist with such uncanny and precise separation between melody and harmony, between bass part and lead part. This aspect of his playing invented the rock'n'roll band.

If you can't hear that, well, I just don't think you can claim to be hearing music with any kind of discernment.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 08:26 AM

It is always a little dangerous to go after others legends. For instance, I was pilloried a bit because I mentioned once that I thought Jimmie Rodgers was not a particularly great yodeler and that Robert Johnson was not a fabulous guitarist. Those were opinions for which I was hammered, called names,and reviled. Jimmie and Robert weren't particularly great as either a guitarist or a yodeler, they were pretty good and I stand by that. There were at the the time better. They were pretty good and played some new stuff that was unique to a large extent.

But that isn't what make them legendary. What makes them legendary is how their individual take on music effected the course of things musically and the musicians that followed.

Don


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 01:50 PM

Son House thought that Robert Johnson was very great guitarist! Nuff said! Or if that isn't enough for you, so did Muddy Waters, Eric Clapton, Buddy Guy etc.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Big Ballad Singer
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 02:08 PM

Tunesmith, read what I posted above. I don't care what anyone else thought or thinks of RJ or Leadbelly or anyone else.

That was MY opinion. I am not here to convince anyone to it, nor am I interested in arguing.

I asked who YOU thought was over-rated. If you don't like the idea of a thread like this, then ignore it. If you don't like my opinion, fine. Offer your own, or not.

But seriously, stop attacking me or anyone else who has an opinion that you don't like.

Makes me think there's people out there who just HAVE to have heroes who are somehow "untouchable". Somehow, there HAS to be some "mojo", some thing that makes them special...

that's not folk at all... that's the antithesis of folk as clearly demonstrated as I have ever seen it.

Funny thing... I listen to Robert AND Leadbelly... I perform their songs in concert at times and have for years.

All I said was that the "legend" thing was over-blown, unnecessary and misapplied when it came to those two men, IN MY PERSONAL OPINION.

George Formby... now, THERE'S a legend. Have at it.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 02:21 PM

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: matt milton - PM
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 08:09 AM

Massively stupid thread.

Robert Johnson invented it. End of story. Sure, he didn't come from nowhere - nothing does. But that doesn't mean he isn't in all likelihood the most 'sui generis' guitarist ever. I've never heard a guitarist with such uncanny and precise separation between melody and harmony, between bass part and lead part. This aspect of his playing invented the rock'n'roll band.

If you can't hear that, well, I just don't think you can claim to be hearing music with any kind of discernment.
sorry, Matt,I likeRobert Johnson, but tome the most important blues guitarist is Blind Lemon Jefferson, MATCHBOX BLUES was copied by meny ro ck and rollers including theBeatles and carl perkins.
Early life

Lemon Jefferson was born blind near Coutchman, Texas in Freestone County, near present-day Wortham, Texas.[4] Jefferson was one of eight children born to sharecroppers Alex and Clarissa Jefferson.[4] Disputes regarding his exact birth date derive from contradictory census records and draft registration records. By 1900, the family was farming southeast of Streetman, Texas, and Lemon Jefferson's birth date is indicated as September 1893 in the 1900 census.[5] The 1910 census, taken in May before his birthday, further confirms his birth year as 1893, and indicated the family was farming northwest of Wortham, near Lemon Jefferson's birthplace.[6]

In his 1917 draft registration, Jefferson gave his birth date as October 26, 1894, further stating that he then lived in Dallas, Texas, and that he had been blind from birth.[7] In the 1920 Census, he is recorded as having returned to the Freestone County area, and he was living with his half-brother Kit Banks on a farm between Wortham and Streetman.[8]

Jefferson began playing the guitar in his early teens, and soon after he began performing at picnics and parties.[4] He also became a street musician, playing in East Texas towns in front of barbershops and on corners.[4] According to his cousin, Alec Jefferson, quoted in the notes for Blind Lemon Jefferson, Classic Sides:

    They were rough. Men were hustling women and selling bootleg and Lemon was singing for them all night... he'd start singing about eight and go on until four in the morning... mostly it would be just him sitting there and playing and singing all night.

By the early 1910s, Jefferson began traveling frequently to Dallas, where he met and played with fellow blues musician Leadbelly.[9] In Dallas, Jefferson was one of the earliest and most prominent figures in the blues movement developing in Dallas' Deep Ellum area. Jefferson likely moved to Deep Ellum in a more permanent fashion by 1917, where he met Aaron Thibeaux Walker, also known as T-Bone Walker.[9] Jefferson taught Walker the basics of blues guitar, in exchange for Walker's occasional services as a guide.[9] Also, by the early 1920s, Jefferson was earning enough money for his musical performances to support a wife, and possibly a child.[9] However, firm evidence for both his marriage and any offspring is unavailable.
[edit] The beginning of the recording career

Until Jefferson, very few artists had recorded solo voice and blues guitar, the first of which was vocalist Sara Martin and guitarist Sylvester Weaver. Jefferson's music is uninhibited and represented the classic sounds of everyday life from a honky-tonk to a country picnic to street corner blues to work in the burgeoning oil fields, a reflection too of his interest in mechanical things.[10]

Jefferson did what very few had ever done; became a successful solo guitarist and male vocalist in the commercial recording world. [11] Unlike many artists who were "discovered" and recorded in their normal venues, in December 1925 or January 1926, he was taken to Chicago, Illinois, to record his first tracks. Uncharacteristically, Jefferson's first two recordings from this session were gospel songs ("I Want to be like Jesus in my Heart" and "All I Want is that Pure Religion"), released under the name Deacon L. J. Bates. This led to a second recording session in March 1926. His first releases under his own name, "Booster Blues" and "Dry Southern Blues," were hits; this led to the release of the other two songs from that session, "Got the Blues" and "Long Lonesome Blues," which became a runaway success, with sales in six figures. He recorded about 100 tracks between 1926 and 1929; 43 records were issued, all but one for Paramount Records. Unfortunately, Paramount Records' studio techniques and quality were infamously bad, and the resulting recordings sound no better than if they had been recorded in a hotel room. In fact, in May 1926, Paramount had Jefferson re-record his hits "Got the Blues" and "Long Lonesome Blues" in the superior facilities at Marsh Laboratories, and subsequent releases used that version. Both versions appear on compilation albums and may be compared.
[edit] Success with Paramount Records
Label of a Blind Lemon Jefferson Paramount record from 1926

It was largely due to the popularity of artists such as Blind Lemon Jefferson and contemporaries such as Blind Blake and Ma Rainey that Paramount became the leading recording company for the blues in the 1920s.[citation needed] Jefferson's earnings reputedly enabled him to buy a car and employ chauffeurs (although there is debate over the reliability of this as well); he was given a Ford car "worth over $700" by Mayo Williams, Paramount's connection with the black community. This was a frequently seen compensation for recording rights in that market. Jefferson is known to have done an unusual amount of traveling for the time in the American South, which is reflected in the difficulty of pigeonholing his music into one regional category. [12] It was Jefferson's "old-fashioned sound and confident musicianship that made him easy to market. His skillful guitar playing and impressive vocal ranges opened the door for a new generation of male solo blues performers such as Furry Lewis, Charlie Patton, and Barbecue Bob. [13] He sticks to no musical conventions, varying his riffs and rhythm and singing complex and expressive lyrics in a manner exceptional at the time for a "simple country blues singer." According to North Carolina musician Walter Davis, Jefferson played on the streets in Johnson City, Tennessee during the early 1920s at which time Davis and fellow entertainer Clarence Greene learned the art of blues guitar.[14]

Jefferson was reputedly unhappy with his royalties (although Williams said that Jefferson had a bank account containing as much as $1500). In 1927, when Williams moved to OKeh Records, he took Jefferson with him, and OKeh quickly recorded and released Jefferson's "Matchbox Blues" backed with "Black Snake Moan," which was to be his only OKeh recording, probably because of contractual obligations with Paramount. Jefferson's two songs released on Okeh have considerably better sound quality than on his Paramount records at the time. When he had returned to Paramount a few months later, "Matchbox Blues" had already become such a hit that Paramount re-recorded and released two new versions, under producer Arthur Laibly.

In 1927, Jefferson recorded another of his now classic songs, the haunting "See That My Grave Is Kept Clean" (once again using the pseudonym Deacon L. J. Bates) along with two other uncharacteristically spiritual songs, "He Arose from the Dead" and "Where Shall I Be." Of the three, "See That My Grave Is Kept Clean" became such a big hit that it was re-recorded and re-released in 1928.
[edit] Stories

As his fame grew, so did the tales regarding his life, often personally involving the teller. T-Bone Walker states that as a boy, he was employed by Jefferson to lead him around the streets of Dallas; he would have been of the appropriate age at the time. A Paramount employee told biographer Orrin Keepnews that Jefferson was a womanizing sloppy drunk; on the other hand, Jefferson's neighbor in Chicago, Romeo Nelson, reports him as being "warm and cordial," and singer Rube Lacy states that Jefferson always refused to play on a Sunday, "even if you give me two hundred." He is claimed to have earned money wrestling before his musical success, which is further claimed as proof that he was not blind at the time (something of a non sequitur). Victoria Spivey elliptically credits Jefferson as someone who "could sure feel his way around."
[edit] Death and grave

Jefferson died in Chicago in December 1929; neither the exact cause of death nor the exact date are known. For many years, apocryphal rumors circulated that a jealous lover had poisoned his coffee, but a more likely scenario is that he died due to a heart attack after becoming disoriented during a snowstorm (i.e., he froze to death). More recently, the book, "Tolbert's Texas," claimed that he was killed while being robbed of a large royalty cash payment by a guide escorting him to Union Station to catch a train home to Texas. Paramount Records paid for the return of his body to Texas by train, accompanied by pianist Will Ezell. Jefferson was buried at Wortham Negro Cemetery (later Wortham Black Cemetery). Far from his grave being kept clean, it was unmarked until 1967, when a Texas Historical Marker was erected in the general area of his plot, the precise location being unknown. By 1996, the cemetery and marker were in poor condition, but a new granite headstone was erected in 1997. In 2007, the cemetery's name was changed to Blind Lemon Memorial Cemetery and his gravesite is kept clean by a cemetery committee in Wortham, Texas.[citation needed]
[edit] Discography and awards
See also: Blind Lemon Jefferson discography

Jefferson had an intricate and fast style of guitar playing and a particularly high-pitched voice. He was a founder of the Texas blues sound and an important influence on other blues singers and guitarists, including Lead Belly and Lightnin' Hopkins. The white North Carolina performer Arthel "Doc" Watson credited listening to Jefferson's recordings as his first exposure to the blues, which would powerfully influence his own style.

He was the author of many tunes covered by later musicians, including the classic "See That My Grave Is Kept Clean". Another of his tunes, "Matchbox Blues", was recorded more than 30 years later by The Beatles, albeit in a rockabilly version credited to Carl Perkins, who himself did not credit Jefferson on his 1955 recording. Given this influence, it is unfortunate that many of the details of his life remain shrouded in mystery, perhaps forever; even the only known picture of him, shown here, is heavily retouched, with a fake tie painted in by hand. However, at the time, "race music" and its white cousin, "hillbilly music", were not considered to be worthy of consideration as art, rather as a low-cost product to be sold and soon forgotten.

    * Blind Lemon Jefferson is the featured musician on a State of Texas license plate.
    * B. B. King has always maintained that Jefferson was a huge influence on his singing and guitar playing.

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame listed one song by Blind Lemon Jefferson of the 500 songs that shaped rock and roll.[15]


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 02:59 PM

Big Ballad Singer you can have an opinion but in this case your opinion doesn't make sense! Robert Johnson was a great guitarist and that is a fact! You might not like what you hear, but that doesn't change the fact that Robert Johnson was a great guitarist.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: beeliner
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 04:56 PM

Leadbelly's "Fannin Street" is a tour-de-force that proves Leadbelly's worth all by itself. And there were so many more.

Dave Ray recorded a very credible version of "Fannin Street" but lamented in the album notes that he was unable to achieve Leadbelly's SLOWNESS!

If you mean overrated in ANY genre, I would have to name Frank Sinatra and Michael Jackson; I have no doubt that many would disagree.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Tootler
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:03 PM

Big Ballad Singer,

If you are not trying to convince anyone and are not interested in arguing, then why did you start this thread in the first place?

Your OP was clearly provocative. Surely you must have seen that and realised that it was bound to lead to controversy.

If you didn't see that, then maybe you need to think a little more before starting a thread like this in future.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Tootler
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:04 PM

Oh! and 100 up


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:22 PM

The OP may have the right to post about whatever s/he likes in whatever way s/he likes (do long as it conforms to basic MC rules), but s/he doesn't have the right to impose upon others what they may or may not respond to, or in what fashion they do so.

BBS, do lighten up, eh? ;)


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:23 PM

I hate to have to denigrate any legend, but I must disagree with Wesley S's high opinion of Bigfoot. I mean, have you ever heard Bigfoot sing? Strictly amateur! And what did he accomplish, really? I mean let's face it: the guy's entire legend is essentially based on his being camera shy. He never even had any good adventures like, say, Peter Rabbit.

Back to reality, my vote for most underrated musical legend: Moondog


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:26 PM

Ooer, I just got some Moondog last weekend. Coolio.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:52 PM

"I just like to call 'em as I see 'em."

There's something about that expression that always seems to indicate something less than attractive about the way the person saying it is regarding themselves.

I think greg stephens at 29 Jul 10 - 12:50 PM got it about right. I don't think it needs saying twice.

......................
Incidentally I understand from a recent thread that they now think that the version of Robert Johnson we think we know is a bit distoreted, because they speeded up the records, which made the voice higher. Still sounds pretty good at what's reckoned to be the correct speed - in fact I'd say better. I don't know if it's made any diffeence to the legend part of it.

A "legend" - surely that means something that's good to pass on and remember and from which people can draw inspiration. Who cares of Robin Hood actually ever lived?

To quote The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend ..."


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 08:31 PM

Legends? You want legends?

How is THIS for a legend!??

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Gail
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 05:28 AM

and here's some of Moondog's music

Moondog 1969 (I think)

New Yorkers may like to know that Moondog was also a legend at Hull University (UK) when I arrived in 1971. This album was THE album to own among us philosophy students.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,JonR
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 08:12 AM

I agree Robert Johnson is over-rated, but not by much. He happened to tick all the boxes required (by white blues fans) of a "legend" - died young, made few recordings, all seemingly uniquely accomplished, got linked with the idiotic story of the devil and the crossroads.
Those can be the only reason he became better known than his mentor Son House, who had a similar intense personal style - which became the template for the archetypal Delta blues singer: the tortured individual at war with himself and his demons. (Rather than the all-round entertainers, also performing gospel and dance tunes, that most of them actually were.)
IOW, he's achieved iconic status because someone had to, and he had all the qualifications - non-musical as well as musical.

His guitar-playing was certainly not satanically gifted, but it was pretty damn good. I'm still waiting for the OP (though he's probably gone now) to name some of those he considered better. Blind Lemon Jefferson? Blind Blake maybe? Who else? (I'd genuinely like to know if there's some great players of that era that I've somehow missed. Especially if they can wipe the floor with Robert Johnson. Which I doubt...)

I shall tease the OP by saying I think Willie Nelson is over-rated as a legend.;-) (Great singer, writer and performer, but legend?)


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 10:03 AM

Being a "legend" isn't necessarily a matter of being the greatest musician, or the greatest anything. It's more about putting a face and a name in a story that needs telling.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 10:36 AM

Guest JonR says re Robert Johnson "Those can be the only reasons he became better known than his mentor Son House" (referring to various non-musical bits of the story). Well, I disagree. I think the main reasons are the recordings of Robert Johnson, and the recordings of Son House. We have all made up our minds, and the balance has tipoped the Johnson way. I say recordings, as I doubt if anyone writing here saw Robert Johnson live. The lucky ones will have caught Son House(I did, a great thrill. But I still rate Johnson higher!!).


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 12:19 PM

I must be the most "under rated" legend.

In fact, so under rated that nobody outside my mirror knows I am a legend really...

Sorry, but not sure about this thread. the original question was rather subjective to say the least. The subject matter of the OP was suspect and completely missed the point of talent versus capturing imagination.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Neil D
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 12:40 PM

Funny coincidence that people have brought up Moondog. I had never heard of him till earlier this week. I happened to check him out on Youtube because he was one of several musicians recommended by Jim White on his website. Jim White is himself quite under-rated.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Cartin' Marthy
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 01:00 PM

I think folk music itself is overrated. It stopped being pure and unadulterated at least 2 generations ago. Now it's just people pretending, like Jackanory or Playaway.

It's Dungeons and Dragons for people too self concious to wear capes.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 01:23 PM

"It's Dungeons and Dragons for people too self concious to wear capes."

Try telling the Ren-Fayre people that, now there's a traditional folk activity: Disney crossed with LARP.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Deckman
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 02:02 PM

To be truthfull ... I think THAT I AM! I'll explain:

I'm really old, I mostly play really old songs, my guitar is really old (a 1938 Martin classic), I no longer have a string of groupies ... (actually I don't remember that I ever did) ... I tend to be intolerant of "modern folk music" ...!

But I DO QUALIFY as a "legend in my own time" because a year ago, someone said that about me on the radio ... (it cost me a lunch)! CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson ... still safely hiding in Everett, Washington


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 02:09 PM

Deckman

But I DO QUALIFY as a "legend in my own time" because a year ago, someone said that about me on the radio ... (it cost me a lunch)!

Clearly a Legend in Your Own Lunchtime.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 02:18 PM

Of course to be a real legend you'd need to be called "Foot". Or maybe "Toe".


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 03:17 PM

Guest Cartin' Marthy ~~

Whoever said that a legend needs to be 'pure & unadulterated'? Indeed, it needs to be the opposite, because 'legend' is part of folklore, which can never, by definition [but don't let's start THAT again just now!] be pure & unadulterated ~~ or it just ain't folk, is it?

{I mean, what's with your '2 generations'? If it was 'pure & unadulterated' before the invention of printing, which I beg leave to doubt, the advent of the blackletter broadside, chapbook, street ballad, true·last·confession, &c &c &c, soon put paid to that...}

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 03:58 PM

Folk just hasn't been the same since people stated using words...


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 04:18 PM

Well, Robert Johnson was a far more complete guitarist than Son House. Robert could play everything that Son played - but better, and he also had other influences ( Lonnie Johnson, for example) that made him a more varied guitarist. Of course, Son House is also a legend, and - to my ears - the greatest blues singer ever!


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Guest, Lash LaRue
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 07:55 PM

To Don Firth:

THANKS for the Link to Ersel Hickey.

Lash LaRue


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 10:23 PM

I had to give this a lot of thought, and well...


















I figure it's a tossup between me and Don Firth. ;-D


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Guest-Dee
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 12:16 PM

Eric Clapton.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Reality
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 03:35 PM

Folk music has legends?


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: banjoman
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 05:19 AM

If she ever makes it to legend status then I nominate June Tabor as the most overrated singer ever.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:05 AM

Jimi Hendrix


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Hesk
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:36 AM

I never "got" Shirley Collins, but I feel quite guilty saying it, as I think she felt the same.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:00 PM

Personal taste and the passing of time make or break legends.
We all stand on the shoulders of giants.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: BTNG
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 04:32 PM

Big Ballad Singer (more of a legend in his own mind I think)


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:11 PM

I also don't get Shirley Collins, but I'll tell you this: She was - and probably still is - one of the attractive women that I've ever met!


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: skipy
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:09 PM

J Cash without a doubt.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Richard in Manchester
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:36 PM

BBS's question was a fun way to start a thread, if you ask me. [Mudcat Militant Tendency: "Who asked you?!"].

When did it become a law that you can't introduce a discussion unless it's to say something "positive" about your subject matter? Leaving aside the cat-fight between Mineisobviouslythecorrectopinionland and the Democratic Republic of Everbodysentitledtoanopinion, I would like to suggest an answer to BBS's original question in the spirit in which I believe it was meant:

Van Morrison.

That's my opinion. Judging from your intervening posts, BBS, if you are VM's biggest fan I do not think you will mind.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: dwditty
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 09:03 AM

Becoming a legend has little to do with the performer and their ability. Cruise youtube and you will find lots of talented people who "outside their small circle of friends" no one has even heard of. Legend is bestowed on someone by the listening public, sometimes simply as a result of their buying into some publicity machine who has declared that performer so.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 09:12 AM

I once thought I was described as a'Living Legend' in our local paper , til my friends and enemies pointed out it said 'Legendary Liver'

It's all a matter of personal choice and opinion and those who follow fashion usually aren't worth listening to. I hate such lists.

If any singer or musician does it with passion and sincerity it is worth a respectfull listen even if it's not technically 'good'


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 10:21 PM

Haven't followed the thread but that Thompson bloke - he of the daft hat - gets my vote.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: stallion
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:07 AM

Isn't it funny how some people still fight the tide? What interests me is the mechanism that brings it to "critical mass", at what point and why these lemming like followings occur. I think humankind has an inherent need to belong to a tribe and some need to be leaders even if it is "big fish in a small pond". It seems that it is more important to belong than what it is you belong to. So perhaps it doesn't matter who was better than who, an icon was chosen and an icon is worshipped. Like the sandal in Life of Brian! It is difficult to compare old things with contemporary eyes and ears you had to be there to really understand, on the other hand one can safely assume that "where there is smoke there is fire" and although one didn't witness a "special" event it it can also be assumed that it was. Legends and Myths are what societies need, deeds embellished and enhanced, heroes, inspiration, after all very few living people measure up.
My pet subject is this trad folksinger thing. I cannot fathom why some people strive to sing like 80 year old men and women and tell me that that this is authentic tradtional folk music and the way everyone should sing. Do not see that at all.
Nough said, legends are made by society not the person so when one has a pop at a legend it isn't the person that you are denegrating
but the collective memory, enhanced or otherwise, of the society that created itand you are makinh a lot of enemies Mr Canute.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: cptsnapper
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 08:00 AM

Karl Marx


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: C-flat
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 09:27 AM

This is such a subjective topic that the original poster takes a bit of a hammering over his Robert Johnson/ Leadbelly comments.
The problem being that, Big Ballad Singer, you completely ignore the possibility that you may be missing something and that it's just not for you.

I noticed a couple of similar comments regarding James Taylor in an earlier posting. For me JT is an extremely interesting songwriter and a talented guitarist. Beautiful use of bass notes underpinning his picking style, but it's just my opinion.

And I'd also admit to finding the legend know as BOB DYLAN extremely hard to listen to.
I just don't have an ear for him!!!
I love his songs, but I love them when someone else sings them. Someone with more of a sense of rythym and better singing style.
Now I know that they'll be scores of you wanting to attack me on this.
DON'T BOTHER! I ALREADY GET IT! For you, it's his style and delivery that makes his musical poetry come alive. For me it kills it!

So it's a shame for us that not everyone gets the same experience and when I want to rave about Django Reinhardt to my partner only to see her going all glassy-eyed and reaching for her Robbie Williams CDs, I've just got to accept we're all different and realise that we all need to respect each others passions.
C-flat.
(Django is king though.....)


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:55 PM

It seems that the point of this thread it to offer a personal opinion and have it countered.

Leadbelly was an amazing 12 string guitar player. Pete Seeger once told me that he would trade in his banjo playing and singing if he could play like Leadbelly.

Most legends, however, tend to be overrated and that's why they become legends in the first place. People put certain artists on pedestals without considering really what they do. Music criticism is filled with this type of meaningless detail.

The reasons Leadbelly was great was because:
1. He played with power and rhythm together.
2. His bass runs have never been successfully duplicated by any one.
3. His guitar was unique. An old Stella restrung with heavy gauge strings, the bottom
sixth and fifth two octaves apart.
4. He was a true representative of African-American folk song from the Louisiana and Texas chain gangs.
5. He had a powerful voice and magnetic stage presence.
6. He was a repository of folk songs such as Fannin Street, The Grey Goose, Kisses Sweeter Than Wine, Good Night Irene, Midnight Special, Bring a Little Water Silvy,
Bourgeois Blues, Red Cross Store and the wonderful "I Don't Lie Buddy" with Josh White.
7. He was the model for Lonnie Donegan who attempted to imitate him with dubious
consequences.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:57 PM

It well may be that if we knew who he was the Big Ballad Singer might be the most
overrated "legend" ever self-concocted.

"He was a legend in his own mind"


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 05:21 PM

It's not William Shatner, because it's impossible to over-rate Shatner! ;-)


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,seth from Olympia
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 08:42 PM

I'm about to depart for the Grocery Outlet store, a wonderful local market with piped in sixiies music, some of it okay, some of it really awful, but I can't turn off my internal listener nearly as well as my wife, so I know that in between Chuck Berry, Lelsey Gore and the Dave Clark Five, somewhere there will be some song by Gary Puckett (and the Union Gap)-sucked then, sucked between then and now, sucks now, with no short interludes of not sucking in between. I never hear any of the legends dissed or not diised here when I go out into the world,though I wouldn't mind a bit seeing the other shoppers walkin' around mouthing the lyrics to Dylan,Leadbelly, Robert Johnson,Sister Rosetta Tharpe or about 1000 other artists that I love-better that than non-legends, who never were legends,who just refuse to stay in their grave. My apologies to all fans of "Garry Puckett and the Union Gap"


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 11:03 PM

Pecos Bill

Paul Bunyan


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Adam Smith
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 04:04 AM

I agree, it is not William Shatner. Or Leornard Nimoy.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 10:33 AM

The most over rated leg end would have to be

Michael FOOT!

The only British Prime Minister in the history of Parliament so disrespectful as to turn up at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday wearing half a sheep, on his back.

As to musicians, and the topic of this thread, I am not sufficiently jealous of any such as to denigrate them in a fruitless attempt to improve my own stature by comparison.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: stallion
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 12:56 PM

hate to be a pedant but michael Foot was the leader of the opposition and turned up in what looked like a donkey jacket, fairly commom outdoor work wear for the building trades at the time. So what was so wrong with wearing a coat that could be readily identified with the working classes (The class of the majority of the fallen) Better than the tories removing their ties at conferance to show that they are the same the hoi poloi.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: stallion
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 01:00 PM

PS.
Pity was Michael Foot didn't make it to PM instead of the plethora of ego driven career politicians who crave power and hang the electorate


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 05:17 AM

What's this? Moondog on Mudcat? Those first three albums are very precious, and we play his orchestral stuff & madrigals a lot in the car too. In terms of cranky Americana I'd say he's up there with Harpo Marx, Martin Denny, Sun Ra and Harry Partch. Lots of choice Moondog & Martin Denny re-issues cropping up lately - I was looking at a few on Saturday in Probe (Liverpool) which since its move to the precints of the Blue Coat seems to have got very folky. I like a shop where you can buy vinyl re-issues of Shirley Collins albums (in their correct covers) alongside all of the above and more besides - & always good to see Ennio Morricone's legendary / hip status assured in perpetuity. Check it out.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 08:52 AM

This guy?


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 01:08 PM

Jimi Hendrix is overrated? Here is a guy, like him or not, who changed the way the electric guitar was played forever after. He was not the most technically proficient musician of his time, but his approach to sound manipulation was a paradigm-shift for rock and roll. He was also rooted in the Blues, and as such helped bring a generation "raised on rock" into the trad fold.

Van Morrison has been able to stay in the spot light for over 40 years, has gone through numerous changes in style, and like Hendrix, has influenced a new generation of performers. Van has also brought a roots-based sensibility, incorporating Gospel, Blues, and Celtic forms into his music.

Of course, both have committed the unforgiveable sin of achieving popular success.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: ollaimh
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 08:41 PM

doncha think sissiphus is over rated. whats so bad about rolling rock. i've liked the stuff ever since i visited to a frisco tavern


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Alanwhittle
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 04:47 AM

Rudyard Kipling

How he ever got away with making those crappy little cakes......

Rene desCartes....I mean 'Cogito Ergo Sum'. It hasn't got much of a ring to it....not like 'Vorsprung Durch Teknik'


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 04:51 AM

Then there was Dylan....probably the least impressive member of The Magic Roundabout


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 05:12 AM

P;ease don't knock Mr Kipling's fruit pies ~~ they are not ruddy-'ard, they are soft & delicious!

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:13 AM

Then theres Bellamy.....

I was never a fan of Upstairs Downstairs and found Gordon Jackson probably at the zenith of his dramatic powers when he delivered theose memorable words,'Och! I love Christmas, but I don't believe in paying through the nose. Go to ASDA for ASDA prices. Why pay more?'


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:15 AM

But Bell-Amie got eliminated in last week's X-Factor in favour of that screeching banshee···


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,alan Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:18 AM

Not to mention Churchill.

there are still people who think Churchill was the saviour of England in World War 2.

more recent evidence points to him being a toy bulldog who sells car insurance.

His catchphrase is 'OH Yes'


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Chris in Portland
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 08:45 AM

It's not Will Holt - he was very good and got lost in the shuffle, when the "folk scare" bubble popped. His material, to me, is a bit dated. But perhaps his style will make a comeback.
Chris in Portland


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 04:16 PM

Skippy the Bush Kangaroo

Did anyone actually see him save someone from being trapped down a mineshaft?

I believe the entire programme was a set-up.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 09:15 PM

Jim Morrison, Evis and U2


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