Traditional singer definition

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 06:22 PM

Good on yer, Jim.
I'm including parts of Scotland when I say the north. A handful maybe but hardly tiny. The NE bothy tradition, Tyneside mish mash of older stuff, broadside ballads, music hall and industrial songs, Yorkshire Pennine tradition still going, the hunt repertoire in the north, even the Lancashire dialect and industrial stuff I understand, all nowadays influenced by the revival but continuous and still going.

And of course that wonderful piece you mention 'You'll never walk alone' has achieved traditional immortality on the football terraces and that's not just a local tradition.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:03 AM

"'You'll never walk alone' has achieved traditional immortality on the football terraces and that's not just a local tradition.
Sorry - am a bit strapped for time at the moment, but surely you don't support the nonsense that the classic Rodgers and Hammerstein song 'You'll Never Walk Alone' has passed into the tradition?
Tradition stretches far beyond mere repetition.
It appears that the term is going down the same pan that 'folk' did.
And had I realised that the suggestion that "Jim is not all that knowledgeable on local traditions in the north" included Scotland my response may have been as jokey as it was.
I really would love to see some of the research that backs up these daft comnclusions some time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 05:11 AM

I once put the "Never Walk Alone" question to Bert Lloyd. "Folk in function but not in form," he replied. "In folk, does not the function define the form?" I suggested. "It does to some extent," he said. That was as far as we got.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 05:13 AM

"my response may have been as jokey as it was."
Sorry, should have read:
my response may NOT have been as jokey as it was.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 11:19 AM

So no further then??

I am keen to have the word "traditionalist" singer as a description

Anyone against?

Stone wall just built!!

Ray

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 11:26 AM

traditional in function but not form,that would be a good way to describe Fred Jordan singing rock around the clock.
a traditional singer has to sing traditional songs, does anyone argue with that, a music hall singer sings music hall songs a countryand western singer sings countryand western, an opera singer sings opera.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 11:41 AM

"I am keen to have the word "traditionalist" singer as a description"
No problem with me - more later
Congratulations on the stone wall
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 12:27 PM

ray , i have heard you sing ,youare agood singer , that isall that matters.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: mikesamwild
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 01:31 PM

If a person sang from their repository of truly traditional songs aquired in the agreed fashion within a community that respected those songs , but was not regarded as a fitting or representative performer who stood for the community's sense of identity and aspirations, would they be able to claim to be a traditional singer?.

I agree with JC it has to be conferred, you can't just claim it.


it's much more than quality of voice and music, it has to be lived I think.


I don't think revival singers and listeners form a coherent community so I'm coming down more to place and continuity through generations than interests. It is part of an accretion and significant song and music( I'd apply the same definitions to traditional music for dance and listening too)


The function is to cement identity and meaning. if new songs are brought in and go throufgh the process they can become traditional within the adopting or selecting community.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 02:12 PM

Vic agrees with me so he's undoubtedly correct.

Generally, a song a tune, a performance, etc., is more "folk" the more it differs from the commercial or professionally-written material of the day (if there is any: unlikely in ancient Australia, for example) and conforms instead to an established non-professional, non-commercial, and non-idiosyncratic norm.

Something similar goes for the performers themselves.

It's all a set of spectra, with individual examples located all along them at imprecise, vaguely identifiable spots. There's your tune spectrum, your text spectrum, your performance spectrum, etc.

And that, I think, is about as far as I'd like to go with it, because I do not wish to go mad.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: GUEST,johnp
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 02:17 PM

Trying to discuss the term "traditionalist singer" without having any stated definition is rather like plaiting fog.
Taking Ray as an example; he has a large repertoire of songs including:
•        Traditional ballads
•        Music hall songs
•        Songs from Yorkshire
•        Modern songs (written within the last 10 years)
The subject matter is many and varied including in no particular order:
Murder, sex, drinking( beer and spirits), mining, tobacco, Yorkshire, prostitution, sailors, pregnancy, etc. etc.
Ray usually sings unaccompanied but does sometimes play the concertina.
Thus we may conclude a "traditionalist singer" can sing anything provided it is mainly unaccompanied.
A little facetious I know, but without defining terms, and slightly flawed logic, this is where we end up.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 04:15 PM

'You'll Never walk Alone'
First of all, the song is a very strong part of the oral tradition of 'The Kop' singing on the terraces. At times its metre, if nothing else, is severely altered. I doubt very much if the current generation of singers on the terraces have ever heard of 'Rodgers and Hammerstein' or the musical it came from. The genre of terrace chants (IMHO) form a very relevant but autonomous part of oral tradition. They qualify under every single characteristic of 'traditional song' and what's more they are very much alive and being added to constantly. Whether you include the 'anthems' like 'You'll Never walk Alone' in with the chants is a matter for speculation. I certainly do.
You may not like them, but you can't deny they form part of a very strong oral tradition, mostly sung.

Whilst alteration, accidental and deliberate, is an important characteristic of traditional music it is not a requirement. In fact there have been many tradition bearers in the past who have stated the exact opposite, in that a traditional act must be continued in exactly the same way as it was always done, i.e., not being altered.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 04:32 PM

'A traditional singer has to sing traditional songs' (Dick)
I'll argue with that any time you like, Dick. A traditional singer can and does sing what the hell he/she likes.
I will also argue on any grounds that certain Music Hall songs have become traditional songs under any valid definition of traditional song. Where would you put Sharp's 'The Jolly Wagoner'? (One example among thousands)
Where would you place the bulk of broadside ballads that have become traditional songs? (95% of the songs in the Sharp/Hammond/Gardiner/Kidson/Baring Gould etc Collections)

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 05:03 PM

"First of all, the song is a very strong part of the oral tradition of 'The Kop' singing on the terraces. "
Would you say that of God Save The Queen?
"I doubt very much if the current generation of singers on the terraces have ever heard of 'Rodgers and Hammerstein' or the musical it came from."
Nonsense - how unaware to you think Liverpudlians are?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 05:47 PM

An afterthought,
Sometimes these discussions seem little more than a malicious game of semantics designed to stop us from communicating with one another.
I'm sure most, if not all of us involved in traditional music are well aware of what a traditional song is, what it sounds like, what it reads like on the printed page.
I wonder how many people here would be happy to sit through an evening of 'God Save The Queen' or 'You'll Never Walk Alone' or 'Happy Birthday To You' or 'Can You Do The Conga', or some succh ditties because some clown has decided to stretch an existing and long-standing term to fit - well, whatever really
Is the suggestion that we can now present these songs to and audience who turns up to hear tarditional songs, or can we expect our albunms to contain such pieces?
I'm thinking of putting together a collection of local songs - should I nip down to our local with a recorder and get the ur version of 'When Irish Eyes Are Smiling'?
If not - why not?
There are some times I very much miss the club scene, but there are others when I'm glad I got out when I did.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:00 PM

traditional singers sing traditional songs, does everyone agree with this.
if they dont why are they called traditional singers, or is it that they only have to have a majority of traditional songs in their repertoire, where does it all end?
if a traditional singer only has 4 tradtional songs out of 50 in his repertoire is he still a traditional singer?, if has only 25 traditional songs in a repertoire of 50 is he still a tradtional singer?if he has 35 out of 50 is he a traditional singer?
who is to say?, Steve Gardham and Jim Carroll think one thing, but neither of them is god, it appears no one can define a traditional singer.
the whole thing is total bollocks.
and if a tradtional singer cant be satisfactorily defined it is better not to use the term, far better [imo] to appreciate good tradtional singers on the merit of their singing and good singers of traditional songs on the merit of their singing, and just enjoy all of that which one likes.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: GUEST,Ana
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:47 AM

I love the old songs. The tunes resonate with me. The stories tell of the timelessness of the human condition. I'll be captured by a melody then I learn the words, and feel the emotion of the ageless story when I sing it. I love to savour them with my voice. To wrap the sound around them.
It often feels like a special responsibility - to care for them, and to simply be a conduit. I learn other songs as well - more recent, that also capture me. Sometimes I'm referred to as a 'trady' and often I hear snide remarks about the genre. I don't really care, though I am perplexed because I don't sneer at others who sing songs not to my taste. It's music and good for the soul. I feel most heart warmed when I open my eyes mid song, and see others (especially men) caught in the moment of the story. It's magic.
Am I a traditional singer? - I don't mind how I'm described. It's just what I do.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 04:10 AM

"traditional singers sing traditional songs, ... if they dont why are they called traditional singers, or is it that they only have to have a majority of traditional songs in their repertoire, where does it all end?"

This is not meant to be a personal attack, 'Good Soldier Scweik', but I sometimes wonder what planet you're on! I found your most recent post, from which the above quote was taken, to be completely obtuse!
For a start, how many singers, normally classed as 'traditional', do you know who, "only has 4 tradtional songs out of 50 in his repertoire"?

Surely, whether a singer is classed as a 'traditional singer', or not, is not JUST about repertoire (?) It's also about things like style, cultural background and approaches to songs. To keep banging on and on about repertoire is just silly and does you no credit.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: GUEST,padgett, who has had his cookie pinched!!
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:46 AM

Traditional singer as I said before ~ like buses, can recognise 'em when I see 'em

But also must be "source" singers to at least some extent, as Steve says, after they have been accepted as "traditional singers" ~ like Fred sung whatever they liked!

I agree, nigh impossible to define!

Those like me singing traditional songs, anon, music hall etc fit "traditionalist" singer definition better!

So too would be virtually anyone posting on this thread

Now where's me flippin' cookie

ray

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: r.padgett
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:49 AM

Yep twas me above!

Ray

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:58 AM

The problem with all these discussions, and to some extent, with folk song researches in general, is that they are conducted on the basis that traditional singers (I mean the 'traditional' traditional ones) only had their songs to offer, and little else.
When we started our work in the early seventies, the song traditions we chose to work with were either dead, or had received the last rites, but even in this situation, the first thing that struck us was that those singers who had been nearst to being a part of a living tradition, and had worked at their singing and their repertoire ALL had an opininion on their songs, the place they occupied in their own lives and communities, the way they should be sung, how they differed from other types of song, and above all THEIR IMPORTANCE as monuments to their lives and that of their contemporaries and experiences.
They made no bones about distinguishing the 'old', 'come-all-ye', 'local', 'Traveller', 'Clare', 'Norfolk', 'my daddie's', 'folk', 'traditional'.... or whatever name they had for them, from the music hall, Victorian Parlour, C&W, or simply modern songs.
Most of them we asked were aware (often modestly, sometimes not) of their own role, and that of their family members and neighbours, in the preservation of these songs, especially as they knew that they had died out in their areas. In all cases their passing was mourned.
We were lucky enough to be able to interview some of them in depth; Walter Pardon, Tom Lenihan, some of the Travellers, and all had something important to say about the tradition, or whatever they called it.
They were happy to give us their songs, if for no other reason than the satisfaction of knowing that they would continue to be sung. One lovely old singer, Martin Reidy, told us that he was so worried that his songs would die out that "I started to try and teach Topsy (his dog, and only companion) to sing".
All the singers we met were aware of the revival of interest in folksong and were pleased that it had happened, but they knew, just as well as we did, that it was something very different than their tradition - not better or worse, just coming frome somewhere else.
If someone wants to make a claim for a 'revival tradition' fine, but that's what it is.
Jim Carroll
PS - Sorry Raymond; haven't forgotten you questions, particularly the 'training' one - will get round to them when it starts raining here - bloody garden!

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Brian Peters
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:52 AM

Totally agree with Steve on football chants. They satisfy the kind of definition of 'traditional' that I would prefer, namely 'that which is handed on'. When I learned 'You'll Never Walk Again' (as the Old Trafford version had it) on the terraces, I'd certainly never heard of Rogers & Hammerstein (I'd be equally sure my sons have never heard them either). You learned the chants from other people in the crowd, or sometimes rival supporters, never knew where they came from, sometimes recognized the original source song and sometimes not. Just like we all learned 'I went to the pictures tomorrow' and 'We four Beatles of Liverpool are' in the school playground.

The problem of discussing definitions like this is that the phrase 'traditional song' is often used within the folk music world to denote the kind of song that Cecil Sharp and his ilk liked to collect, i.e. songs of 17th-19th century coinage that had passed into oral tradition by the late 19th and early 20th century. In the world of 2010, those songs are no longer 'traditional' in the sense of continuing to be handed down within families and local communities, although they are still performed on the stages of the folk music world. They have broadly recognizable lyrical and musical characteristics and (to my mind at least) form a body of repertoire separate from, say, music hall material, which has different and usually easily recognizable characteristics of its own. So I still sometimes use the term 'traditional song' to describe that body of older material, even though - in academic terms - 'You'll Never Walk Alone' or 'Happy Birthday to You' satisfy the definition of 'traditional' much better in the contemporary world. Doesn't mean I want to hear football chants sung in folk clubs, though.

As to 'traditional singer', again this is a specialised usage among insiders discussing the history of vernacular or 'folk' song. This definition too is very difficult to pin down, mostly because the growth of mass media over the last 100 years has gradually turned us from a society in which entertainment amongst the less privileged classes was largely home-made, to a society of much more passive consumers. However, this has been a gradual process, so even today we still find individuals within certain communities (travellers spring immediately to mind) who still make and hand on music for their own entertainment. Meanwhile, the traditional singers of the 20th century - by which I mean those who learned songs within the family (the great majority of the singers on 'Voice of the People' for instance) were able to augment their family repertoires not only from social acquaintances, migrant workers and so forth - as they'd always done - but from the radio, records or (in a few cases) from the folk revival which had invited them onto its stages. That Fred Jordan should have picked up songs at folk festivals is no more surprising than that he should have learned songs from the gypsies working in the fields around his home.

Given that 'traditional song' and 'traditional singer' have specialised meanings depending on the context in which they're being discussed, it's perhaps not so surprising that we can find ourselves in a situation where a 'traditional singer' doesn't necessarily sing 'traditional songs'.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 07:26 AM

I doubt very much if the current generation of singers on the terraces have ever heard of 'Rodgers and Hammerstein' or the musical it came from.
Nonsense - how unaware to you think Liverpudlians are?

I can't speak for Liverpudlians, but I had no idea until a few years ago that "You'll Never Walk Alone" came from a musical (I thought it was a hymn), and at the point I read your post I couldn't have said it was a Rodgers and Hammerstein one without googling. I still don't know which musical it was (and don't care if I never find out).

If I've ever heard it in a recording from a musical production, I have no recollection of it. But I've heard it many times sung by ordinary folks, despite never having been to a football game in my life. Which puts it in the same category as "The Green Hills of Tyrol" (I know I've never heard Rossini's setting).

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 07:51 AM

Well, whether you want to know or not, I will tell you anyhow. It's from Carousel ~~ quite a good Rodgers & Hammerstein musically, but an obnoxious, religiose mess in its book & lyrics if you ask me {which, I am well aware, nobody did}.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 08:08 AM

I am on the planet Earth,Shimrod, the one where occasionally people in folk clubs make silly teapot gestures,that you have taken exception to in the past.
TRADITIONAL SINGERS[imo] have to sing traditional songs or at least the vast majority.
   LIKE WISE a jazz singer has to sing jazz songs, if a singer sings jim reeves songs he is not a jazz singer, unless he treats the song in a jazz way and starts to improvise vocally etc, the definition of a jazz player or singer[imo] being one who improvises spontaneously.
   now    if a traditional singer sings traditional songs but starts to improvise [ in jazz style] what is he then?[apart from being experimental].he becomes a jazz singer, because of the style of presentation.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: mikesamwild
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 08:15 AM

Once a song has been lifted out of the living stream and printed can it be poured back and re-enter the tradition or is it always a revival song until it goes through the 'folk process' assuming it's heard and sung by one of the dwindling number of genuine traditional singers somewhere in the world?


If a collected song still resonates or expresses something significant to a community it can become traitional.

So can a modern song I would argue if it is selected within such a community. In our South yorkshire carol tradition new carols have been introduced from composition or retrieval or transfer from other pubs etc.

There are a lot of us who learned these purely within the singing community and make no distinction as long as they meet the criteria of the singers. I've seen songs sung and rejected or ignored and others taken up.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 08:17 AM

"learned songs within the family (the great majority of the singers on 'Voice of the People' for instance)"
Sorry Brian - a bit misleading this - we met quite a few of the V.O.T.P. singers at one time or another (some of them are our recordings) and as far as I can see after a quick glance, although it is true that they got their songs from within the family, all those families came from living or recently deceased traditions.
"so even today we still find individuals within certain communities (travellers spring immediately to mind) who still make and hand on music for their own entertainment."
Have said it before, but the Traveller communities we met, and, I suspect elsewhere, lost their song traditions to portable televisions, pool tables, juke boxes and TV sporting channels, some time back in the mid seventies. There are some signs of a re-stirring of interest in these communities, here in Ireland, and, I believe, in Scotland, but this is largely due to interest and encouragement from some folk clubs and to education establishments such as those at Aberdeen and Limerick giving a practical push. This renewed interest spreads can possibly be described as revivals themselves.
Must go - Triffid-like New Zealand Flax calls!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Brian Peters
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 08:37 AM

"Sorry Brian - a bit misleading this - we met quite a few of the V.O.T.P. singers at one time or another (some of them are our recordings) and as far as I can see after a quick glance, although it is true that they got their songs from within the family, all those families came from living or recently deceased traditions."

Can you explain further what you mean, when you've dead-headed the triffid, Jim? Are you saying intra-family transmission is less important than I think it is? I did a survey a little while ago, based on the printed biogs in VOTP, and nearly every singer had learned some or most of their repertoire from mothers, fathers, uncles, aunts or grandparents. So are you suggesting that families only become a significant channel when songs are no longer passed on within the whole community?

As for travellers, I recently met Thomas McCarthy (he was at Sidmouth and Whitby festivals), a really fine singer who is related to the community under the Westway flyover that you recorded in the 1970s. He certainly hasn't let that tradition go, and his style is reminiscent of Bill Cassidy.

I also spent a large part of the Sunday of Dartmoor festival in the Kings Arms in the company of the Orchard family, who spent the day playing melodeon tunes and singing songs. I prevailed on Jean Orchard to sing 'A Wager, A Wager' (learned from her mother) after which she volunteered 'Tie a Yellow Hankerchief' (learned from a recording of Pheobe Smith!), and a fine job she did of both.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 09:30 AM

Dick, in my view it is possible for someone to wear two hats and be be both a traditional singer and a jazz singer. However your latest example is rather different from what we have previously been discussing, which was singers who included songs from other genres and sources alongside those they had acquired from within the tradition.

Besides, "traditional singer" in the context we are discussing it is not a hard-and-fast term but is specialist usage among a specific interest group. We have already seen examples earlier in the thread of how "traditional" means different things in different genres. If there were a traditional singer who also sang songs in a jazz style, then so far as the folk community is concerned he would probably still be regarded as a traditional singer, because that is the aspect which is important to that interest group. The jazz community might view him as a jazz singer who also sings folk songs.

It's a matter of perspective, but as this is a folk music forum that is the perspective we should be viewing it from. From that perspective, whilst it may be perfectly valid to label a singer according to their repertoire, to me it is not helpful. If they can be a traditional singer one minute, a jazz singer the next, or a C&W singer after that, all that does is tell what that singer is singing at a particular point in time. What it does not do is make what is (to me at least) an important distinction between someone who sing sings traditional songs and other songs from within the tradition, and someone like me who came to those songs from outside it.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 10:04 AM

this is a music forum, not specifically a folk music forum.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Snuffy
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 10:33 AM

this is a music forum, not specifically a folk music forum.

I thought you would believe it is specifically a folk music forum when we are discussing folk music, but it isn't when we're not.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 10:46 AM

"PS - Sorry Raymond; haven't forgotten you questions, particularly the 'training' one - will get round to them when it starts raining here - bloody garden!"

Don't fret, Jim – the discussion's moved on, I think. Get those secateurs oiled...

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 10:46 AM

" ... if a traditional singer sings traditional songs but starts to improvise [ in jazz style] what is he then?[apart from being experimental].he becomes a jazz singer, because of the style of presentation."

Again, GSS, please name a traditional singer who improvises in jazz style. Because, I suspect, you can't. Postulating the existence of such a person is a waste of time and gets us nowhere. If, on the other hand, you can point to such a singer then please refer to Howard Jones's well argued post above.

It seems to me that you're either deliberately 'muddying the waters', arguing for the sake of arguing, or over-complicating things for no good reason.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 11:18 AM

Every time I sing "Happy Birthday" as it was taught to me in childhood, I'm a traditional singer (though not a very interesting one).

Every time I sing it in the manner of the late Peter Bellamy, however, I'm a non-traditional singer.

Neither observation tells us much about me, "Happy Birthday," my feelings about it, or the place of it or me in society.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 11:34 AM

absolutely, lighter.
Shimrod,i once heard a traditional singer sing carolina moon, tat that point while he was singning that song he was no longer a traditional singer, but just a singer of tin pan alley, when he sang cheshire farmers daughter he was atraditional singer because he was singing a traditional song he had learned from his family.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 11:39 AM

if i sing one of my self penned songs ,i am no longer a singer of traditional songs ,but as soon as i sing a traditional song i become one again, if i decide to sing a cw song i become a cw singer[even if i dont do it very well]likewise if i choose to sing a blues i become a blues singer [even if i am not a good one]

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 12:44 PM

"Get those secateurs oiled... "
Secateurs - have you seen New Zealand Flax? I'm using an axe, a pickaxe and a spade, and still having to leave most of the roots in.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 01:13 PM

Part of the confusion and contenion comes from the fact that we're talking about at least two different kinds of "traditional singer."

Literally, anyone who sings "Happy Birthday" in theor own traditional style is a "traditional singer," at least for the moment.

But the "traditional singers" we're interested in are a subset, who may be defined as "traditional singers *of interest to fans and/or students of traditional songs."

Such singers may be "interesting" for any of a number of reasons and to various sorts of interested fans and/or students: large traditional repertoire, one or two rare traditional songs, striking texts, songs learned under colorful circumstances (under sail, for example), truly archaic style, great voice, affecting performance, etc.

Then there are the rest of us. It's the "interesting" singers of traditional songs (and players of traditional music) we're interested in.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 02:08 PM

"if i sing one of my self penned songs ,i am no longer a singer of traditional songs ,but as soon as i sing a traditional song i become one again, if i decide to sing a cw song i become a cw singer[even if i dont do it very well]likewise if i choose to sing a blues i become a blues singer [even if i am not a good one] "

That's all perfectly true, but at the risk of repeating what I said a few posts ago, how is that remotely helpful?

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Rozza
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 02:15 PM

Steve learnt songs from his Mother and published one or two in his East Riding Songster. Can he be a traditional singer when he sings them, or is he "revival tainted"?

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 04:17 PM

if i sing one of my self penned songs ,i am no longer a singer of traditional songs ,but as soon as i sing a traditional song i become one again, if i decide to sing a cw song i become a cw singer[even if i dont do it very well]likewise if i choose to sing a blues i become a blues singer [even if i am not a good one]

I can't quite put my finger on it, but there appears to be a sort of false logic to this. I can't believe that we all cease to be something while we're temporarily indulging in doing something else. My main instrument is guitar, but I also play mandolin, fiddle, blues harp, keyboard, bass, Appalachian dulcimer, etc., in varying degrees of competency. When I'm playing mandolin at a session, I don't suddenly stop being a guitarist - I'm a guitar player who's playing mandolin at a session.

I don't believe we're suddenly transmogrified because we venture down a different path. If I had to categorise myself as a singer, it would be as a singer of material from the 1900s to the 1930s - from all sorts of sources. If I sing a traditional folk song of unknown origin, it doesn't change into something else. I exist as an entity quite outside the things I choose to do.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 04:19 PM

it doesn't change into something else

should read: it doesn't change me into something else

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: r.padgett
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 04:34 PM

Some of this is a bit silly!!

Ok probably mine for starting it!

Anyone reading this er stuff?

Ray

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 04:54 PM

its the silly season ,its better than talking about giant gooseberries.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 04:57 PM

But if I sang a song about a giant gooseberry baked in a traditional pie, would I be a traditional pie singer - or a singer of songs about gooseberries?

Just asking...

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:34 PM

its better than talking about giant gooseberries

Oh, I don't know.

Whinham's Industry was developed by Robert Whinham of Morpeth. The Newcastle Daily Chronicle reported thet "he produced his gooseberry after many fruitless attempts". He was the father of another Robert, the fiddler who wrote Whinham's Reel amongst many other excellent tunes.

You are right, Ray. A lot of this is very silly.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:47 PM

Okay, I've had enough now and I'm ready to call truce. I think the more discerning members have agreed that there is no absolutely cast iron definition with hard and fast boundaries. We've listed enough names here of the people we all agree on who we all accept ARE traditional singers. The jokes are even becoming wearisome.

I'm out o' here.
Where's me hat 'n coat?

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Liberty Boy
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:25 AM

Ah dont stop now. As a singer of traditional songs and songs composed in the idiom I've been enjoying this.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 03:52 AM

"I think the more discerning members have agreed that there is no absolutely cast iron definition with hard and fast boundaries."
There has been enough research on the subject to arrive at a reasonably informed conclusion as to what conssitutes a traditional singer. I suggest David Buchan's 'The Ballad and the Folk', (a little academic, but still readable), Evelyn Wells' 'The Ballad Tree' (extremely readable, but academically flawed), Willa Muir's 'Living With Ballads' (somewhat romantic, but has plenty in it to make it worth a read), Hugh Shields' 'Narrative Singing in Ireland', David Kerr Cameron's 'The Ballad and the Plough'...... and plenty more where they came from, including tons of articals from people like Hamish Henderson, Tom Munnelly, Bert Lloyd..... all dealing with traditional singing in situ. I mentioned it earlier, but the latest on the pile, David Gregory's 'The Late Victorian Folk Song Revival' seems an excellent source of information on traditional singers and their repertoires (haven't had time to read it in full yet, but have read enought to give me the impression of an extremely valuable piece of research).
It seems a feature of todays revival to overlook or deliberately ignore the libraries of work that have been published on subjects like the tradition, folk, the ballads..... in order to manipulate the language and prove that black is white and to fit square pegs into round holes. If the work that has been done by people like Lloyd, Sharp, Lomax, et al is flawed, by all means put it up for knocking down, but to ignore it seems like an attempt to mount a takeover bid (often hostile) on the English language.
I'm disappointed not to have been able to take part fully in this discussion; it is an excellent one, but I like Liberty Boy (hi Jerry) feel it would be a pity to stop now.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 04:35 AM

"if i sing one of my self penned songs ,i am no longer a singer of traditional songs ,but as soon as i sing a traditional song i become one again, if i decide to sing a cw song i become a cw singer[even if i dont do it very well]likewise if i choose to sing a blues i become a blues singer [even if i am not a good one] "

At the risk of being hung, drawn & quarterly, might I make so bold as to suggest that you remain a folk singer throughout, Dick? Unless we might call you a Singer of CW Songs which is a very different beast to a CW Singer. Again I am reminded of a Lancastrian Non-Traditional Folk Singer who introduced one of his own songs at a singaround as being Not a rock 'n' roll song, but a folk song about rock 'n' roll. I regularly hear blues & CW songs being sung in folk clubs but am under no illusions that I'm listening to Blues or Country and Western. The same is true any of the other genres one might encounter on any given night at our local folk clubs (list please, Jim?) which because of a) context & b) hearty amateurism remain folk whatever their point of origin. This is not to accuse Dick Miles of hearty amateurism, just a further consideration of horses for courses & what might become of a CW Song when sung by a non-CW Singer. It's like if Jim Eldon was to sing Garth Brooks & George Burns' B double E double R U N (a personal fantasy I've been harbouring for some time) which would about as far away from the CW dream as you could wish to get.