Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 05:59 PM

thankyou , it was,very, interesting.
he talks about Kipling, I think Kipling wrote his poems to a rhythym, which is why they worked as songs, is there any evidence that Kipling was aware of folk songs?or is Peter stating what he wants to believe is the truth.
I think he is right, that it is a good thing that folk music should include political and non political songs.
to be honest,I wouldnt particularly like to hear political songs extolling xenophobia, but I am happy to hear songs of social comment.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 06:04 PM

Second instalment up now - two songs from the same interview - Death of Bill Brown and Goodbye Old Paint.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIDkhEIUveQ

Not the best quality in the world, but as I say the VHS isn't that much better - and by YouTube average I'd say this is around 8/10. I'll persevere with the tape in like manner as time allows. Next up a snippet from the Maritime England Suite featuring Dolly Collins & Ursula Pank (nee Smith).

I don't think I've got a recording of him doing You Can't Always Get What You Want, but I certainly remember him doing it as an encore (with borrowed guitar) whilst sporting an image of Brian Jones on his vest around the time Psychic TV immortalised Jones as Godstar. Reminds of Spleen sporting his 'Bellamist' t-shirt at the Beech a couple of years back!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Goatboy
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 06:08 PM

Interesting to hear his speaking voice - closer to RP than one might have guessed from the records. The exaggerated regional accent he used when singing was clearly as affected as the bleat.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Goatboy
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 06:24 PM

By the way Dick, I believe Kipling was more influenced by music hall songs than folk songs: he lived opposite a music hall in the early 1890s, and visited regularly. However, the rhythms of the music hall to some extent grew out of the same street ballad tradition that we now consider 'folk', so the connection is there.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 04:30 AM

Quick gather-up...

"I don't think I've got a recording of him doing You Can't Always Get What You Want"

If I'd been cheeky enough to switch on the cassette recorder in our kitchen in the Spring of 91, we'd have had Can't Always Get, Tumbling Dice and Harp Song Of The Dane Women. Chiz...

"Interesting to hear his speaking voice - closer to RP than one might have guessed from the records. The exaggerated regional accent he used when singing was clearly as affected as the bleat"

And your point is...? That traditional songs should be sung utterly without artifice? You can "own" a regional accent without necessarily using it in your everyday speech.

"I believe Kipling was more influenced by music hall songs than folk songs"

Yes, if it's possible to quantify such things. Actually Kipling didn't have much of an ear, by all accounts. He knew his folk song pretty well, but not necessarily through hearing it sung. He'll have known it better on the page, I think.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: brezhnev
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 06:29 AM

There's an interesting article about musical settings of Kipling by Brian Mattinson here that seems to back up Bellamy's belief that Kipling was familiar with the kind of songs his one-time Sussex neighbours, The Copper family, sang.

It suggests, inter alia, that he may have written A Smuggler's Song with the Copper's version of The White Cockade in his head.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 06:38 AM

Kipling mentioned a local family called Copper in one of the stories in Rewards&Fairies.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 06:40 AM

Thanks for the upload - inspirational stuff.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,freebornman
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:40 AM

Suibhne! Thank you very very much!!!!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: brezhnev
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 10:25 AM

Great tapes! What a treat!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 10:47 AM

I just wish I could do them a bit better that's all but, as I say, the VHS dub isn't that much better than what you see there. Hopefully whoever has the originals might be moved to post them?? Meanwhile I tried Part Three earlier - British Man o' War (from the Martime England Suite with Dolly Collins & Ursula Smith) and The Liner She's a Lady (excerpt with Chris Birch and Anthea Bellamy) - but there was too much flickering interferance.

I'd love to know where these were from - someone's obviously taken some time over them, with insets of suitably maritime scenes. Whilst the Maritime England sequence looks like footage from a studio rehearsal, TLSAL looks like it could have come from the Rolf Harris Show, with lights, backdrop and all: CB in fine hat and boots, AB looking beautifully folkly-fey and BP adopting that classic stance and widow's peak. If he were around now, PB would be in his element guesting with Bellowhead in packed concert halls where punters would be playing air-anglo in the aisles.

Will persevere!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 03:31 PM

I doubt it, people seem to prefer the Kate Rusbys of the world, Girly voices and no balls.thanks for putting up the videos ,I enjoyed them

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 03:51 PM

Girly voices and no balls

So much for Sandy Denny, Anne Briggs, June Tabor...

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:13 PM

Isn't it a shame that Anne doesn't want to sing any longer? The last time I heard her was in the "Acoustic Routes" film and I thought she was still wonderful. But, that's her choice, so I guess we should be glad for the records we have.

(Sorry about the thread drift. I did play Peter's Fair Annie cd last night, that's wonderful stuff too.)

David E.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 07:55 AM

no I dint put their singing in thAT category, you mentioined them Pip.I did not
I think both JT AND AB do excellent versions of Reynardine

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 08:22 AM

Distinct lack of balls, though.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 01:39 PM

SANDY DENNY?she sings with balls.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:24 PM

I was fortunate enough to see Sandy with Fairport one time. Other than a few songs where she slid behind the piano, she spent the entire evening with her hands on her hips glaring at Dave Swarbrick. I didn't know Sandy of course so I can't read into this, but I did come away with a definite feeling of relief that she wasn't glaring at me.

(More thread drift. Sorry)

David E.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:43 PM

who can blame her?she probably thought he had come back from the dead.
his premature death has previously appeared in That August pillar of the establishment The Daily Telegraph

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 07:57 PM

Again we might speculate on how Fairport would have been with Bellamy as their singer. They approached him, he accepted, but it never happened - although maybe it did in some alternate universe.

Has anyone got the full story?

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 05:37 AM

You have! That's all it boils down to, really. In their final '70s incarnation Fairport were well aware of their vocal limitations, but disobligingly broke up before the idea could be pursued. With today's audio technology, surely it must be possible to graft a Bellamy vocal onto a Fairport rhythm track – or a Stones rhythm track, come to that. That would be worth hearing.

Of course, at one time Fairport were toying with the idea of using Bert Lloyd as a vocalist. I hear tell they're in discussions with Rolf Harris for next year's Cropredy...

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 09:30 AM

I bet they didn't dare ask MacColl!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 07:22 AM

Okay - catch this one whilst you can, a 30-minute Edited Highlights of The Transports production from the 1980s (date please??) as broadcast on Folk on 2; directed by Taffy Thomas with John Kirkpatrick as MD - Jim Eldon as The Ballad Singer, featuring Peter & Jenny Bellamy singing The Greenfields of England, and PB delivering a mighty Abe Carmen and... Oh, just download the bloody thing and enjoy!

Peter Bellamy - The Transports, Folk on 2, 1980s

It'll be available for the next 7 days, or 100 downloads max, but if anyone misses it enter your plea here and I'll post it up again.

Even though it's edited, I can't help feling there's bits missing. Does anyone have a more complete version??? For now though, there's plenty here for everyone I would have thought. Starts off sounding a bit scrappy, but picks up after a few seconds - not bad for a 25-year-old Sony HF 90!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 07:52 AM

Suibhne, that's fantastic stuff, thanks so much for that

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 08:28 AM

Isn't it though? Just a shame we don't (as yet!) have the full version.

More details meanwhile...

In May 1987, Charivari staged a lavish production as part of the Portsmouth Festival. Peter again appeared in the role of Abe Carman, and as one of The Transports with Jenny Bellamy. Jim Eldon played The Street Singer and the rest of the cast included Dave and Heather Brady,
Pete Morton, Mike Bettison, Tim Laycock and John O'Hagan.

From HERE.

There exists video footage too! Hopefully we'll see this on YouTube in due course...

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 11:43 AM

Interstingly enough, I've just read 'Kipling Sahib' a biography of Kipling' time[s] in India, fascinating. Concerning his knowledge, or otherwise, of 'folk' song, there is a statement that one of his relatives, an aunt I think, sang lot's of folk songs, one of which was 'False Knight on the road'. Which the author states that Kipling, on what hard evidence is not clear, used the form for 'Danny Deever', which of course PB put to Derwentwaters farewell, though it can of course be sung to several other tunes. The first part of the verse does, more or less fit False Knight on the road' but the second half doesn't.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 12:39 PM

The Q / A format of Danny Deever certainly has ore than the one traditional precedent, though I doubt Kipling had any such tune in mind for it in mind given, as you say, it's not all Q / A, and the rhythmic foot is quite different.

Interesting to note I've been scolded in Tyneside clubs for singing Deever to Derwentwater because a lot of Geordie folkies are naturally affronted that the melody should be used for anything but Derwentwater. Also, ertain of them have been offended that I should have dared sing an anti hanging song anyway. Strange reactions in my reactionary homeland where Danny Deever is somehow anti-capital punishment and The Land is a pamphlet call to a socialist uprising. Give me air! Give me air!

*

Anyway, enough about that - I spent a good hour this morning doing that digital transfer from the old cassette of the Folk on 2 Transports broadcast from 1987, so all you Bellamists and lovers of good music out there in Mudcat Land, go back a few posts click the link!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 04:12 AM

I think, in the 1980s versions mentioned by Suibhne above in which Pete sang with his wife, it was with his first wife Anthea, not his second Jenny as stated above. I would not swear to this; but it was certainly Anthea who sang with him at a live performance I saw at the Purcell Room as part of London Folk Festival {directed by Alistair Anderson} in 1980s.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 05:39 AM

It was definitely Jenny Bellamy in Taffy's 1987 production, MtheGM; download the MP3 (The Transports - Folk on 2, 1987) and hear Jim Lloyd confirm as much in the credits. As I say, video footage of this production exists - I have it in part (only two songs: Abe Carmen as sung by PB & The Green Fields of England sung by PB & JB) but I hope YouTube will prove a suitable platform for that wider audience of such archive classics.

Some choice playing by John Kirkpatrick in there too - his tender variations on The Leaves in the Woodland are among the many highlights on offer here; one almost feels tempted to resent PB's narration!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 07:19 AM

Yes indeed ~~ many thanks Suibhne. I managed to open it that time, tho for some reason couldn't do so last time. Much appreciated.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 06:34 PM

I've been checking this out on the Transports thread, because I remembered seeing it on the South Bank with Anthea (and Bridget Danby as the mother). But the 1987 version was with Jenny, and she's credited in the highlights recording.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 06:39 PM

Peter was a genius, a great guy too. I miss him.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 08:57 AM

Wonderful stuff. PB's Abe Carman is at least the equal of Bert Lloyd's.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 09:43 AM

Are you familiar with PB's rewrite of Abe Carmen, Pip? It originally featured on his EFDSS album Second Wind and found its way onto Wake the Vaulted Echoes. Apparantly it was done in response to a call from one of The Transport's poducers who felt the original a little too bright for a man bound for the gallows. Naturally this darker version is the one I'm inclined to sing myself, though it does carry a rare potency as well as mighty a melody as you'd expect.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 06:20 PM

Can I draw your attention to this sterling effort by Mr Greenoaken of this parish, who has not only transcribed PB's original sleeve notes for Oak, Ash & Thorn and Merlin's Isle of Gramarye, but also provided entertaining and informative annotations? If you're that way inclined, and I hope you are, you can read them on the Folk Police Blog.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Reinhard
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 01:02 AM

Suibhne, Yousendit says "file not available". Can you pretty please upload it again?

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 05:36 AM

YouSendIt files are only available for 7 days after posting. I've posted this one again today, so it'll be up there until the 9th. Enjoy!

Peter Bellamy: The Transports, Folk on 2, 1987

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Reinhard
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 01:22 PM

Thank you very much!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 12:24 PM

I'll leave it to someone better qualified to flesh out the whys & wherefores of the Maritime England Suite, but basically it's a 40-minute sequence comprising PB's settings of Kipling, traditional and other lyrics arranged by Dolly Collins and performed by the trio of PB: voice / Dolly Collins : piano / Ursula Pank (nee Smith) : 'cello. It existed as a lo-fi cassette only edition, copies of which are very scarce and fading fast but the music is of a perfect Golden Charm that will beguile even the most casual Bellamist; the hard-core will already have it of course, in one form or another - so, here's part one; part two to follow.   

Peter Bellamy : Maritime England Suite - Part One

NB - This is a basic transfer of a very old unbranded cassette copy as sold by PB at his gigs. No attempt has been made to clean it up at source (no Dolby certainly!) or otherwise enhance it on the computer other than to fix a patricularly messy edit. One hopes the masters are extant and that plans are afoot to release them officially, but as life is generally too short for the awaiting of such miracles...

File expires on 22nd November, so get it while you can!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 12:25 PM

I'm sorry I'll post that again...

I'll leave it to someone better qualified to flesh out the whys & wherefores of the Maritime England Suite, but basically it's a 40-minute sequence comprising PB's settings of Kipling, traditional and other lyrics arranged by Dolly Collins and performed by the trio of PB: voice / Dolly Collins : piano / Ursula Pank (nee Smith) : 'cello. It existed as a lo-fi cassette only edition, copies of which are very scarce and fading fast but the music is of a perfect Golden Charm that will beguile even the most casual Bellamist; the hard-core will already have it of course, in one form or another - so, here's part one; part two to follow.   

Peter Bellamy : Maritime England Suite - Part One

NB - This is a basic transfer of a very old unbranded cassette copy as sold by PB at his gigs. No attempt has been made to clean it up at source (no Dolby certainly!) or otherwise enhance it on the computer other than to fix a patricularly messy edit. One hopes the masters are extant and that plans are afoot to release them officially, but as life is generally too short for the awaiting of such miracles...

File expires on 22nd November, so get it while you can!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 01:18 PM

thanks thats very good of you,I appreciate it.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 02:06 PM

Peter Bellamy : Maritime England Suite - Part Two

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 10:18 AM

Some interesting comments going up on the Bellamy VHS vids on YouTube.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Max Johnson
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:21 AM

I saw The Transports at the South Bank, and thought it was wonderful.

One of many fond memories was a Folk Quiz at Cecil Sharp House. The EFDSS took on The Rest Of The World, and I was in Eddie Upton's Rest Of The World team. We moidered da bums.

Last time I saw Peter we played darts. Padstow, I think. A true visionary, a very average darts player and a lovely, lovely guy. RIP, mate.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 09:42 AM

A treat for Bellamists... this is a recording of Peter Bellamy live at Stainsby Folk Festival in 1981: Peter Bellamy in Concert

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 10:56 AM

New page up today on the Sidmouth website:

The Transports

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 12:18 PM

Hardly on the same scale as the stellar new Sidmouth Transports...

But we're doing a wee show at The Fylde this year entitled Bellamy: Kipling with the Tradition featuring Ron Baxter, Ross Campbell, Rapunzel & Sedayne. The performance will feature both our own interpretations of PB's various settings (including our setting of Harp Song of the Dane Women from the Oak, Ash, Thorn CD now updated - listen HERE) as well as a couple of recreations of his classic arrangements, such as the original up-tempo Wassail of A Tree Song and the trio arrangement of The Liner She's A Lady.

A free show too, on the Saturday afternoon slot at The Mount which has proved such a success over the last few years for us Earthbound Souls - so do make note if you're coming to The Fylde!

*

Expect some free downloads soon to go along with it...

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 06:24 AM

And on Mike Harding's show on Wednesday 29 June 2011 - 7:00pm BBC Radio 2 - James Fagan and Damien Barber 'discuss their roles in a production of The Transports'.

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 07:25 AM

And wonder of wonders, Oak Ash and Thorn and Merlin's Isle of Gramarye now have handsome CD reissues. Well done to the good people of Talking Elephant Records. And cheers!

Subject: RE: Boring, Bleating Old Traddy (Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,SRD
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 05:54 PM

Many years ago Peter dossed at mine after a great gig at Farningham. I was living in NAG at the time and the following morning we made our way through the footpaths that litter that place of little boxes on our way to catch him the bus to take him on to the next gig. It was a glorious summer's morning, the sun was out and the birds were singing their hearts out. I said "Isn't this fabulous, just listen to those birds." He replied "You know what they're saying don't you - fuck off - this is my tree!" He wasn't joking.