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No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?

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GUEST,Shimrod 16 Oct 10 - 09:28 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 16 Oct 10 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,Hilary 16 Oct 10 - 03:18 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 16 Oct 10 - 04:00 PM
Tootler 16 Oct 10 - 07:08 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 17 Oct 10 - 04:35 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 17 Oct 10 - 04:50 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 17 Oct 10 - 10:40 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 17 Oct 10 - 03:11 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Oct 10 - 04:04 PM
MGM·Lion 17 Oct 10 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 17 Oct 10 - 05:37 PM
Tootler 17 Oct 10 - 05:58 PM
Slag 17 Oct 10 - 07:07 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 18 Oct 10 - 05:06 AM
Tim Leaning 18 Oct 10 - 06:33 AM
Arthur_itus 18 Oct 10 - 06:49 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 18 Oct 10 - 06:59 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 18 Oct 10 - 07:08 AM
GUEST,leeneia 18 Oct 10 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 18 Oct 10 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 18 Oct 10 - 02:32 PM
Jack Campin 18 Oct 10 - 03:25 PM
The Sandman 18 Oct 10 - 05:21 PM
Phil Edwards 18 Oct 10 - 05:31 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 18 Oct 10 - 05:41 PM
GUEST,leeneia 18 Oct 10 - 05:58 PM
Tootler 18 Oct 10 - 07:22 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 19 Oct 10 - 04:06 AM
GUEST 19 Oct 10 - 05:23 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 19 Oct 10 - 05:48 AM
Phil Edwards 19 Oct 10 - 05:55 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 19 Oct 10 - 06:10 AM
Rob Naylor 19 Oct 10 - 06:14 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 19 Oct 10 - 06:37 AM
Phil Edwards 19 Oct 10 - 06:57 AM
TheSnail 19 Oct 10 - 07:09 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 19 Oct 10 - 07:12 AM
GUEST,glueman 19 Oct 10 - 09:20 AM
GUEST,glueman 19 Oct 10 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 19 Oct 10 - 09:44 AM
GUEST,crazy little woman 19 Oct 10 - 10:30 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 19 Oct 10 - 11:27 AM
GUEST,Jon 19 Oct 10 - 11:43 AM
The Sandman 19 Oct 10 - 12:26 PM
The Sandman 19 Oct 10 - 12:31 PM
Goose Gander 19 Oct 10 - 12:49 PM
brezhnev 19 Oct 10 - 02:43 PM
Tim Leaning 19 Oct 10 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,999 19 Oct 10 - 03:25 PM
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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 09:28 AM

"I'm not sure what is NOT folk, as the title asks, but I know that 'what is NOT good manners' is to look down on bands and their audiences as being kinda halfwits, who really wouldn't understand certain traditional singers if they fell over them. And for me, it's that patronising, pseudo-intellectual, looking down their noses, aren't we sooooo clever! attitude that has really put me off so much traditional folk music and some of the very musicians who perform it."

Funny that! It's exactly that sort of exclusivity which is one of the things that attracts me to folk music. But then I've always despised fashion of any sort. And "patronising" is too weak and wishy-washy a word, Lizzie. How about 'contemptuous'?


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 09:36 AM

"How about 'contemptuous'?"

Don't hold back now Shimrod, why not say what you really mean?


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Hilary
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 03:18 PM

I actually wrote a high school paper about what folk music was. I came to the conclusion that it is music that represents or can tell someone about your culture. But I'm not sure if I agree with that definition anymore. I think now that folk isn't a genre like the way that art music or pop music are not genres. They have genres within them. That's why folk music has been so hard to define. We've been defining it the wrong way.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 04:00 PM

Ultimately the entire concept of Folk Music is at fault, predicated as it was on seriously flawed grounds born entirely class condescension. We have asked Does Folk exist? On the evidence gathered thus far, the answer must be not on your nelly. If we get rid of this Folk nonsense and think of the myriad of musical traditions (and of traditional musics) people have mistaken for Folk then maybe we might get somewhere.

On the other hand, the reality of Folk Music in 2010 is the very broad church (however so sparsely populated at times!) examplified by the plethora of musical styles discussed and celebrated here on Mudcat, and in the sessions, folk clubs and festivals throughout the English Speaking World and beyond. Thus might an experimental traddy like myself happily, and respectfully, shake hands with a popular singer-songwriter like George Papavgeris in the certain knowledge that we are all part of the international come-all-ye of the Folk Community which, if it's about anything at all, is about the people - the Folk if you will - celebrating a very diverse unity.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Tootler
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 07:08 PM

Oi! Who died and made YOU chairman of MY committee?!!!!!

All I have to say is:


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 04:35 AM

Hi CS,

Let's just say that anti-intellectualism and inverse snobbery make me 'hoppity-wild'!!


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 04:50 AM

The bogus intellectualism of the Folk Revival is born of the snobbery & class condescension on which the whole thing was predicated anyway. Folk is less a music than it is an psuedo-academic fantasy-taxonomy fabricated by the bourgeousie to ensure their version of things remains the correct one. That's what should be getting you hoppity-wild, Shimrod.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 10:40 AM

"Folk is less a music than it is an psuedo-academic fantasy-taxonomy fabricated by the bourgeousie to ensure their version of things remains the correct one."

Ah! The good old Dave Harker/'Fakelore' hypothesis. That bourgeous- academic, Socialist Worker fake has an awful lot to answer for!


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 03:11 PM

Dunno, Shim - haven't managed to track a copy down as yet; I reach my own conclusions from the available evidence. I'm reading The Imagined Village just now which just confirms it; depressing stuff all in all. You still got your copy of Fakesong?


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 04:04 PM

There's nothing fake about Dave Harker. He had the courage of his convictions. It is a great pity that he over-politicised his thesis but I don't see anybody here denying any of the points he made in relation to the 'fake' aspects. I'm ready to lock horns with anybody who wants to pick up on any of his 'fake' points.

Suibhne, you're welcome to borrow my copy if it helps. Have you checked online to see which of your nearest libraries has a copy?


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 05:14 PM

My view of Dave Harker's book was summed up in my review of it ~~ "Two cheers from the Ranks of Tuscany".

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 05:37 PM

According to an appendix in Harker's book (Open University Press, 1985) his parents were suitably 'horny-handed' sons and daughters of toil. But his father built up a, "firm of speculative builders which never employed more than a dozen or so other workers." Harker won a scholarship to grammar school and then went to Cambridge. At one stage he was, I believe, a lecturer at Manchester Polytechnic (bourgeois and academic??). He hoped that his book would be judged (favourably) by his comrades in the Gorton Branch of the SWP. Gorton is a suburb of East Manchester - it is not very leafy - I suspect that, in the 1980s, Mr Harker may have actually lived somewhere a bit leafier.

Perhaps these facts might add a bit of perspective when considering the merits of a book which, I have always believed, seriously distorted views of folk music and folk song collectors. Then again ... perhaps not ...?


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Tootler
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 05:58 PM

"I'm ready to lock horns with anybody who wants to pick up on any of his 'fake' points"

then I suggest you start here

I leave you to draw your own conclusions from it.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Slag
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 07:07 PM

As the GREAT, SIR Conan Doyle wrote so wisely, so many years ago "The game is afoot!" And to which that GREAT Folk Balladeeress, Nancy Sinatra sang, "These boots IS made for walking!"


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 05:06 AM

Tootler, thank you for giving a link to Chris Bearman's masterly demolition of Harker's critique of Cecil Sharp. To quote from Bearman's paper:

"It is Harker, not Sharp, who deliberately ignored the significance of the singers' testimony when it conflicted with his own values and assumptions, and who suppressed the overwhelming body of evidence which did not favour his thesis."

Harker was/is(?) a Trotskyite who 'argued' from an extreme political position. Bearman suggests that Harker's critique of Sharp was equivalent to a member of the British Far Right criticising the Communist Manifesto. His thesis seems to have been based on the idea that the bourgeoisie appropriated and distorted the 'Workers'" music and then fudged the evidence to support it.

Suibhe, by all means read 'Fakelore', if you can get your hands on a copy, but you MUST read Bearman's paper as well. I suspect that the assertions that you often make, such as: "Folk is less a music than it is an psuedo-academic fantasy-taxonomy fabricated by the bourgeousie to ensure their version of things remains the correct one" may ultimately owe something to Harker's book - but just be aware that Chris Bearman has shown that much of 'Fakelore' is a fake!


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 06:33 AM

Anything that needs such a tedious litany of statistics and pedants to argue over them is folk music.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 06:49 AM

This is not folk, but is as good as morris dancing :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT56YizyR2o


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 06:59 AM

I just wrote a ballad about having lover's balls for a good looking lady.

I decided it wasn't folk.

if I sing it at a folk club next week, (as I intend,) will it then become folk? Or... if my mate who sings in working mens's clubs sings it this weekend, does that mean it isn't folk?

I wish this dilemma would folk off.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 07:08 AM

That sort of thing is a real TRADITION at weddings these days - the bride and groom getting coached for weeks in advance so they might astonish their guests. Great stuff indeed. Traditional, but not Folk, thank God!


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 09:14 AM

Now F'troupe is saying " all we want is just 3 or 4 approved tunes."

Here you go:

1. Any ballad collected by Cecil Sharp. The more murders, the better.

2. Any Irish slow air.

3. Any Scottish jig or reel.

4. On Top of Old Smokey.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 09:57 AM

I'm a fake too because I keep referring to Dave Harker's book as 'Fakelore' - when, in fact, it should be 'Fakesong' - silly me! I suppose that my vision must have been clouded by the red mist which descends whenever I'm reminded of that wretched volume!


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 02:32 PM

Yo Shim - go steady on the old Folk Fundamentalism there. Folk Fundamentalists are worse than the Folk Police because all the Folk Police do is enforce the civil law in the best interests of everyone. The Folk Fundamentalist, on the other hand, is willing to die for his righteous cause which is neither civil nor legal but based on the prophet Cecil Sharp being guided to discover the Golden Tablets by the angel Moroni -

Er - hold on a minute - I'm having that old Joseph Smith / Cecil Sharp thing again. It always happens when faced with the more Orthodox Elements of the Revival, replete (as it is) with Righteous Religiosity and a call for the burning of books (or the masterly demolition of them) & the dastardly heretics that dared write them.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 03:25 PM

Chris Bearman's masterly demolition of Harker's critique of Cecil Sharp

Bearman being the prat who tried to get Malcolm Taylor sacked as EFDSS librarian?

No thanks.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 05:21 PM

I have not read Dave Harkers Book, I am too busy singing songs and playing music.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 05:31 PM

I know nothing about Chris Bearman, but I've read his two papers on Harker & Sharp and can't see much wrong with them. To my mind he goes wrong on Left politics - he seems to think there's such a thing as The Marxist Interpretation, and that the fact that Dave Harker is in the SWP axiomatically means he has nothing useful to say about Sharp. But what he says about Harker's (mis-)reading of Sharp strikes me as valid & useful.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 05:41 PM

"It always happens when faced with the more Orthodox Elements of the Revival, replete (as it is) with Righteous Religiosity and a call for the burning of books (or the masterly demolition of them) & the dastardly heretics that dared write them."

Suibhne - haven't I told you a million, billion times never to exaggerate? And I haven't burned my copy of 'Fakesong' - nor am I urging anyone else to. But, it seems to me, that Harker is the 'fundamentalist' and Bearman the objective scholar (I vaguely recall hearing somewhere something about some sort of dispute with Malcolm Taylor - but I don't know the details and suggest that it isn't relevant to this discussion).

So, I urge you again to seek out a copy of 'Fakesong' (you could make me an offer on mine, possibly?) but when you've finished it (and finished slavering over its conclusions) I strongly urge you to read Chris Bearman's paper as well. You can talk the talk, Suibhne, but can you walk the walk?


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 05:58 PM

Hi, Schweik.

I congratulate you on your dismissal of Chris Bearman's masterly demolition of Harker's critique of Cecil Sharp.

And now, back to my dulcimer. Did you know one can play 'Once in Love with Amy' on a dulcimer in DAA?


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Tootler
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 07:22 PM

I keep referring to Dave Harker's book as 'Fakelore' - Freudian slip maybe?


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 04:06 AM

"I keep referring to Dave Harker's book as 'Fakelore' - Freudian slip maybe?"

It's more likely to be senile decay, Tootler!


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 05:23 AM

Jack Campin

Bearman being the prat who tried to get Malcolm Taylor sacked as EFDSS librarian?

I found this intriguing so did a bit of Googling and came up with this - An Open Letter (Posts appear in reverse order. Scroll down to Bearman's letter.)

Despite knowing some of the protagonists personally, I had no idea that these erudite versions of Mudcat squabbling were going on.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 05:48 AM

A copy of Fakesong has been sighted, though it's not, as yet, within reach - so, in the offing as it were. No doubt by the time it hoves to I'll be finished The Imagined Village and ready for some light relief, though just this morning I was struck by the term oikotypical which appeals to me greatly.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 05:55 AM

Oh dear. Bearman vs Harker seems to have been a bit like 1066 and all that's Roundheads and Cavaliers - Right but Repulsive vs Wrong but Wromantic. And it really didn't help that Bearman seemed to want to turn it into Bearman vs the World.

Still, if you wipe off the froth and overstatement, the actual points Bearman was making seem pretty solid, viz. (a) there's no evidence of C# having fascist leanings, and (ii) Rolf Gardiner wasn't involved in setting up the Morris Ring, whereas people with left-wing views were. And these points do matter, because the idea that there was something dodgy and blood-and-soil-ish about the first folksong revival has become received wisdom. We're perpetually disavowing something that probably never existed.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 06:10 AM

the idea that there was something dodgy and blood-and-soil-ish about the first folksong revival has become received wisdom.

Dodgy is an understatement; it was cultural plunder & imperialistic paternalism at its very worst.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 06:14 AM

JC: Bearman being the prat who tried to get Malcolm Taylor sacked as EFDSS librarian?
No thanks.


So you're going to dismiss without even looking at it a paper critical of Harker just because the author produced an intemperate rant about a BBC programme and a Telegraph article?

People can be personally unappealing yet still produce good research, and Taylor himself has described some of Bearman's work as "the best in the field".

I read both the open letter and the paper and while the open letter was definitely a bit infantile, the paper criticising Harker's work seemed pretty robust. But since you refuse to read it because you consider Bearman a "prat", I guess you'll never know.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 06:37 AM

"Dodgy is an understatement; it was cultural plunder & imperialistic paternalism at its very worst."

More exageration, Suibhne! Exaggeration piled on exaggeration on top of exaggeration. A bit of evidence for your wild assertions might be nice. Still, I suppose that if you keep repeating nonsense - eventually someone, a bit short on critical faculties, may decide that you are talking sense.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 06:57 AM

OK, the idea that it was cultural plunder & imperialistic paternalism at its very worst has become received wisdom. Doesn't mean it's true.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 07:09 AM

GUEST at 19 Oct 10 - 05:23 AM was me.

Who keeps eating my cookie?


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 07:12 AM

An academic reconstruction of carefuly seleted elements of a perceived traditional culture motivated according by the ideological absolutes of one man with friends in high places is bound to be a bit wobbly, Shim - hardly an objective methodology anyway, especially given its various fruits. Ultimately I think I'm with GSS on this one, I just wish I could break this habit of reading academic books on Folklore, Song & Music which, excellent though they invaiably are, invariably leave me feeling depressed and ill at ease with the whole thing. Could be one to add to my list of New Year Resolutions...

Of course having my annual Virance Inconvenience doesn't help matters, which kicks of ME flashbacks whilst without the wind howls with rain and hail lashing the windows making it sorely tempting to draw the curtains and immerse myself in comething vintage & horrible by way of DVD entertainment. Or maybe I'll put some of that Cox & Larner documentary up on YouTube for the whole world to enjoy?


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 09:20 AM

Just listened to the Peggy Seeger programme on the wireless. There wasn't much folk but it was steeped in folk revival, the stance, the sound, the politics. She came close to regret when describing her and MacColl attitude's to folk as uncompromising, perhaps arrogant (if I paraphrased her correctly without listening again).
The more I read and listen the less idea I have what what Folk is, or even if it exists, while becoming increasingly certain about the mores of the revival cult.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 09:23 AM

Cult sounds perjorative, I probably mean genre plus beliefs, so whatever word sums that combination up best.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 09:44 AM

Cecil Sharp, a malign grin on his face, strutted into the Conservatoire. He twirled his moustache, doffed his cape and flung his top hat at the hat stand - it missed but was soon picked up by the servile, 'hat-flunky'.

He lowered himself into an armchair and snapped his fingers for another white-jacketed flunky to bring him his favourite tipple - scotch and pauper's blood on the rocks.

Algernon Beastly-Smythe, who was seated in another armchair and reading the Times, looked over his newspaper and said, "What ho, Cecil, you're looking pleased with y'self - what's afoot?"

Cecil said, "Morning, Algie! Y'know how we're always looking for new ways to be beastly to the poor?"

"Oh gosh, rath-err!", said Algie.

"Well I've just come up with a jolly spiffing new scheme", said Cecil.

"Oh do tell!", said Algie.

"Well", said Cecil, "have you ever been to Somerset?"

"Hmmm, Let me think" said Algie, "I might once have shot a peasant in Huish Episcopi ... not sure ...?"

"Well, anyway", said Cecil "I hear that the yokels down there habitually sing lots of old songs ... and I'm going to steal 'em!!"

"What an absolutely marvellous wheeze", said Algie, "why it'll be cultural plunder & imperialistic paternalism at its very worst!"

"Just what I thought!", said Cecil.

"Do it, Cecil!", said Algie "my, you're a cad and no mistake!!"

Their loud, braying laughter echoed through the Conservatoire - punctuated only by the screams of the hat-flunky who they tormented by way of celebration.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 10:30 AM

Way to go, Shimrod.

You've gotta love the Mudcat. Where else do people use 'doff'?


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 11:27 AM

I probably mean genre plus beliefs, so whatever word sums that combination up best.

Cult?


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 11:43 AM

Where does one really go with this?

Maybe my own fave would be something around for 100 years everyone has learned.

Maybe we can go for sounds we identify, eg to me the Boat Band is classic English dance music, Shaskeen have the good Irish Cayley sound and Jimmy Shand is I'd think everyone's idea of a New Year's Eve in Scotland.

Maybe we can't though. some things sound "foreign" to me and I don't buy the word formula writing ideas.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 12:26 PM

excuse me for publishing bearmans letter.An Open Letter to:
The Chief Executive of the English Folk Dance and Song Society (2nd draft)

Dear Madam,

This is an open letter of protest - it will also be published on the Musical Traditions website - about the untruths and disinformation recently fed to the media by your employee Malcolm Taylor, with regard to the radio programme The Seeds of Love broadcast on 26 August and to the article It's time to try Morris Dancing published in the Sunday Telegraph on 10 August.

The major theme of the radio programme was that folk music represented a 'working class' cultural tradition which was appropriated by Cecil Sharp and transferred to another class or classes. The Times's summary of the programme (T2, 26 August, p.29) asked: 'Did he [Sharp] misappropriate a working class culture or reclaim a vanishing tradition? Malcolm Taylor finds out'.

Malcolm Taylor did no such thing, because he only examined one side of the question and ignored the only relevant research, which happens to be my own. In 2000 I published Who were the Folk? The Demography of Cecil Sharp's Somerset Folk Singers (Historical Journal Vol.43 No.3). In that essay I showed that about 30 per cent of Sharp's singers were not 'working class' according to dictionary definitions, and that social mobility operated among them as among any other group of people. Since then, I have extended my researches to cover the work of other folk song collectors and have shown that the main influence on the social composition of folk singers was collecting methods. For example, more than half Sabine Baring-Gould's sources in Devon and Cornwall were not 'working class'. I presented these conclusions in my paper Towards the Social History of Folk Music, given at the conference of the International Ballad Commission at the University of Texas, and to the recent English Folk Song - Cecil Sharp in Context conference.

This is not a matter of two equally valid points of view depending on the same research base. The fact is that I am the only person to have applied large-scale biographical and demographic methods to this question, while the persons allowed to present their views on the programme were relying on assumptions and suppositions which I challenged and discredited. These assumptions and suppositions were politically motivated. The allegation that folk music represents a specifically 'working class' cultural form allows Marxist scholarship to claim the subject for its own and to apply a set of ready-made concepts which derive from their political and cultural theory, such as the doctrines of 'expropriation', the 'invented tradition', and the theory of cultural 'hegemony'. The person most responsible for this interpretation, and for applying it to the work of Cecil Sharp, is David Harker. In Who were the Folk? I began a demolition of Harker's analysis which I completed in Cecil Sharp in Somerset: Some Reflections on the Work of David Harker, in Folklore Vol.113 No.1 (2002). The 'debate' for which Taylor was responsible did not merely ignore my research; it also repeated discredited material.

In both the radio programme and the Sunday Telegraph article, associations were made between Cecil Sharp and the Nazi party, and between the morris dance movement and fascism in more general terms. In the programme, the association was made by V A F Gammon. In the article, the idea appeared to have been fed to the Sunday Telegraph's reporter by Taylor himself. I will deal with Gammon's association presently. The Sunday Telegraph alleged that Sharp had 'leanings towards fascism' which depended partly on guilt by association (because Sharp was an enthusiast of Wagner) and partly on a false quotation. The article alleged that Sharp insisted 'that folk song was a pure. Aryan 'race-product''. Taylor should be forced either to show that Sharp used those words in conjunction with one another, as the article printed them, or to write to the Sunday Telegraph and publish a true quotation with a retraction and an apology. He should also be forced to state precisely what he means by the allegation that Sharp has 'leanings towards fascism' and justify them by direct reference to Sharp's life and work, or acknowledge that the allegation is utterly baseless and publish an apology and retraction.

The association of morris dancing with fascism rests on the allegation of the 'supposedly brownshirt sympathies of prominent figures in the morris-dance revival'. Once again, Taylor should be forced to provide adequate evidence, or to publish an apology and retraction. In this case it would be necessary to prove that 'prominent figures' in the revival - i.e., more than one - either had actually founded organisations or had a major role in their organisation, and had direct links or publicly expressed support for the Nazi party's private army. (This is what the allegation implies). Needless to say, no such proof can be provided: in fact, the assertion rests on allegations made by Georgina Boyes, first in her book The Imagined Village and then in her own contribution to her edited collection Step Change, that Rolf Gardiner was the indirect founder or motivating spirit behind the Morris Ring. Boyes has never been able to produce any evidence for this allegation and it has been refuted again and again, most notably by actual participants in the foundation of the Ring such as Walter Abson. They have shown, not only that Gardiner did not take any part, but that some of the organisers had entirely different political affiliations, such as the Marxist allegiance of Joseph Needham. Indeed, the Editor of the Folk Music Journal recently drew attention to the fact that Boyes had no evidence whatsoever for her allegation and had ignored the many refutations of her association of Gardiner with the Ring, and concluded that: 'it is rare to find a published work which so misrepresents the source material' (Folk Music Journal, Vol.8 No.2, p.369). This is one more instance in which Taylor not only ignored the most authoritative research, but repeated discredited material.

I am a social historian, and if there really was any evidence that Cecil Sharp had 'leanings towards fascism', or that the morris dance revival had drawn on 'supposedly brownshirt sympathies', I would be the first to want them brought to public attention and discussion. Likewise, Taylor, Gammon, and Boyes are entitled to their opinions and are free to express them, within the limits set by scholarly principles and the presumption of innocence. But 'Fascist' and 'Nazi' are common words of abuse, and to accuse a person or a movement of such sympathies is highly perjorative. The very strongest evidence, therefore, is required before such allegations should be made, and in this case the 'evidence' is non-existent or has been disproved in public debate - it is noteworthy, incidentally, that Gammon has never presented any evidence beyond his bare statement that Sharp had ideas in common with the Nazis, and that Boyes has never attempted to answer her critics about Gardiner's supposed influence on the Morris Ring: instead, she has simply repeated her baseless allegations. It follows, I think, that these allegations cannot be made through any intention to engage in serious debate about Cecil Sharp's work and the legacy he left us; rather, the intention of this smearing and mud-slinging seems to be the silencing of Sharp; to shut him up, to deny him a hearing by associating him with political ideas which are not tolerated in the modern world. Taylor, Gammon, and Boyes seem to have despaired of demolishing Sharp's reputation by discrediting his work, and instead attack him on irrelevant personal grounds

There is a further dimension to this question. If it is acceptable to attack a person through the political principles and ideas with which they are associated (even in the most indirect and loose way, as shown by the manner in which Taylor, Gammon, and Boyes have attacked Sharp and the morris dance movement), should not their own political affiliations and sympathies be public knowledge and open to such guilt by association? Gammon's motive for associating Sharp with the Nazi party appears to be the importance he attaches to ideas, and the propensity of ideas for causing human suffering. The first time he made this association was in 1988, in a book review. The relevant passage reads:

    I admire Sharp and his work, but in a different context such ideas formed a cornerstone of a regime that perpetrated untold human suffering, misery, torture, and genocide. Ideas are important. (Folk Music Journal Vol.5, No.4, p.497)

Those words were written the year before the Berlin Wall fell and the Communist regimes of Eastern Europe collapsed with it. Since then, the opening-up of various archives has exposed the full horror of the Leninist and Stalinist regimes, even (one hopes) to those who had denied their crimes before. We know now that where Hitler slew his millions, Lenin and Stalin slew their tens of millions. It is as ridiculous and unfair to blame the ideas of Karl Marx for this untold slaughter as it is to blame the ideas of 'German romanticism' for the Holocaust, but, if people like Gammon and Boyes choose to sling mud through far-fetched political associations, it is fair to point out that a lot of mud can be slung back at them.

Please note that I am not actually saying that Gammon and Boyes are Marxists, but the links between them and Marxist ideas are far, far stronger and more plain than those between Sharp and the Nazis, or those between the morris dance revival and fascism. As I have already pointed out, the starting point for their discredited interpretations is the work of David Harker, a self-declared Trotskyite (Fakesong [1985] pp.256-257). In the course of a whole article devoted to Harker's work in 1986, Gammon described it his treatment of Cecil Sharp and the early folksong movement as 'the beginning of serious scholarly work in this area' (History Workshop Journal No.21, p.147). In his own PhD thesis, he declared himself uncertain whether or not it was a Marxist work. It has be said that, in a letter to the Musical Traditions website earlier this year, Georgina Boyes denied that Harker was the starting-point for her own work, but in a reply (published on the same website) I showed how one of her attacks on Cecil Sharp was clearly derived from Harker and challenged her either to deny this, or produce the independent research on which it was based. And, in any case, it would be an exceptionally innocent and politically unaware reader who did not notice the ideological direction of The Imagined Village. If it is fair to associate Cecil Sharp and morris dancing with fascism and the Nazis through common ideas, and to point out how these ideas were responsible for untold suffering, genocide, etc, it is fair to point out that Gammon and Boyes share Marxist ideas which, at a similar remove, were also responsible for untold suffering, genocide, etc.

These are not solely academic questions. In the Sunday Telegraph article, the reporter alleged that 'an echo of potentially dark associations does survive in the name of Sharp's enduring legacy, the English ... Folk Dance and Song Society', and that the Society's mission statement ('to put English traditions into the hearts and minds of the people of Britain') 'doesn't sound good ... in Blairite Britain'. There is nothing intrinsically 'dark' or disgraceful about England or English traditions: it is only these trumped-up, unprovable, and discredited associations with political causes which make them so, made by people whose own political associations will not bear examination - as I have pointed out. It is foolish to assume that sensational stories about fascist associations do not have repercussions among those who might otherwise consider becoming EFDSS members, or among the great and good who may make important decisions about your funding. In these circumstances, it is utter folly and suicidal stupidity for the EFDSS to allow such politicised smearing and mud-slinging to be perpetrated and assisted by its own staff such as Taylor. Wise birds do not foul their own nests, but that is exactly what you have done by allowing Taylor to make such untrue, stupid, and irresponsible statements. He, and you have brought the folk music movement into disrepute for the sake of your own self-importance and notoriety.

If I was a member of the EFDSS, I would call on you to sack Taylor and submit your own resignation. Like very many others, I am not a member because I have no confidence in an organisation so badly led, and which offers so little value for money. I would restrict my protest to this letter if I had any confidence that you and your organisation would actually do something about it, such as restrict Taylor's access to the media, but I know from past experience that your organisation's reaction to protests about abuses perpetrated by its staff is to allow those responsible to lie their way out of trouble. I am therefore taking the only action open to me, and withdrawing my copyright work from the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library as a token of my anger and disgust.

Yours faithfully,

C J Bearman - 5.9.03
Cecil Sharp was a socialist and an ACTIVE MEMBER OF THE FABIAN SOCIETY, so I find it odd that he is described as FASCIST by any body


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 12:31 PM

however I am surprised that he suggests Lenin slew millions, he died in 1924., I am sure he[Bearman] is mistaken on this point


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 12:49 PM

If it's sung by a horse in a Designated Un-Folk Context, then it's probably not folk (unless it is).

And don't track any mud und manure into the house, please.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: brezhnev
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 02:43 PM

Very Good, Shimrod. Here's a more modern one:

----------------

Viktor Vinogradov, the Soviet delegate, grim determination set on his jaw, strides in to the 1959 International Folk Music Council conference bar in the former royal palace in Bucharest.

Mihai Pop, his Romanian host, seated in an armchair reading Izvestiya, looks up, stands to attention and says "Greetings, Comrade. What's afoot?"

"Greetings Comrade delegate Pop," says Vinogradov. "What's afoot? 12 inches! Ha! Ha!...Now, y'know that speech you're going to read to the conference tomorrow about new folk...?"

"Oh gosh, rath-err!", says Pop.

"Well I have it here in my bag."

"Oh do tell what it says!" says Pop.

"Later, you buffoon! You only have to read it", snaps Vinogradov. "Now, have you been to the Maxim Gorky Collective Farm no 18 outside Stalin City?"

"Why, of course, Your Folkiness" says Pop, "There is no finer example of collectivisation in the whole of Romania. Following your most excellent instructions, workers and peasants have spontaneously set up a cultural palace there, created a folk orchestra in the national style and moved the maypole from the village square to the entrance of the people's grain silos..."

"That is good", says Vinogradov "I hear from First Secretary Dragoi that emissaries from the Folk Institute have been collecting folk songs there."

"It is so, Your Folkship," says Pop. "And in line with your most traditional instructions they are all spontaneous folk creations of the collective, portraying the new conception of labour and the people's artistic vision, thoughts and aspirations under the new social relations brought about by the liberation from capitalism...and sung in the manly and vigorous national style by the 50-piece V. I. Lenin Rolling-Stock Manufacturing Works Traditional Folk Orchestra of Moldavia."

"So, none of that archaic melancholy, I trust?" asks Vinogradov.

"No, Your Most Traditionalness," says Pop. "As per your most folkworthy instructions the people have abandoned all those elements of traditional song which are not consistent with their constant yearning for progress. The songs recorded in the collectivised field include 'As I went out one morning on my tractor', 'When the cuckoo calls me to over-achieve The Five Year Plan', 'The Ballad of Ho Chi Minh'..."

"And are they all in the oral tradition?" asks Vinogradov.

"Most assuredly, Your Folkworthiness," says Pop. "In line with your instructions, they are being handed down from generation to generation even as we speak."

"Excellent," says Vinogradov. "Now, let me introduce you to the alternate comrade delegates representing the progressive discographic companies of London and New York. I think we might make a sale here."


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 03:17 PM

Sorry but all the fun has gone from this thread for me.
I will add it to the list.
1) Folk Music
2)Stonehenge
3) this thread.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 03:25 PM

I expect the majority of posters are from the UK. So rather than venture an opinion I will say with no trepidation at all that bread sticks are NOT folk music.


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