BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:22 AM

NHK... didn't quite catch the story... 1.5m deep water in a turbine building (I am not be positive) laced with high levels of iodine. This may be where the iodine found in the ocean 330m south of the plant is coming from. Electrical cables have to be laid to the turbine buildings.

Sketchy, but there it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:58 AM

BBC's latest:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12869184

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 10:30 AM

Here's what I can harvest this morning focused on volatile releases from melted nuclear fuel at the Fukushima 1 nuclear complex. The prognosis looks dreadful for the plant site itself but not a dire as Chernobyl for the downwind areas:

Union of Concerned Scientists teleconference transcript Friday, March 25

"REPORTER:

I'm seeing these sort of ominous reports from the Japanese Prime Minister, you know, warning of a breach in the reactor vessel of Unit 3, can you give us some kind of context to understand why, you know, how risky that is and just give me some sense of, you know, we've been hearing about this for weeks now and I actually, I mean, just give me a sense of what you guys know about this breach and what it could mean.

MR. LOCHBAUM: This is Dave Lochbaum, I'll start and then Ed can supplement. First of all, we're hearing reports of a reactor vessel breach on Unit 3, but the data is inconclusive as to whether that's actually what's going on. There could be other factors that could cause the reactor vessel integrity to be lost, for example, one of the relief valves could have stuck open. If it is, indeed, a reactor vessel breach, the consequences, or the most likely reason for that would be that the core has been damaged to the point of melting. Some of the molten mass fell down to the bottom of the reactor vessel and caused a hole, burned a hole or created a hole in the bottom of the reactor vessel, which became the breach. If that's the case, it's bad, because first of all, it indicates that the level of fuel damage went beyond blistering and cracking of the fuel rods, to the point of melting of fuel, which is a more severe form of fuel damage. And it was followed by a loss of integrity of the reactor vessel. If the reactor vessel remains intact, you always have the option or the ability to put water back into it to cool the fuel, even if it's damaged. If the reactor vessel has been breached, you face challenges in putting enough water in it and keeping the water in it rather than having it just drain back out through a hole in the bottom.

In the emergency procedures world, if you do lose the integrity of the reactor vessel, the option is to fill up the entire containment above the point where the breach has occurred so that you try to still cover up the fuel, even if the fuel has been relocated, part of the fuel may have relocated, and the reactor vessel integrity has been lost. So, you still have methods to deal with that, if that were to occur, but they're obviously much more severe than if you keep the reactor vessel intact and allow the fuel to remain where it was placed originally. Ed, is there anything to add to that?

DR. LYMAN: Just that, you know, until the core starts to degrade, as I mentioned at the beginning, a relatively small amount of radioactivity is actually released to the atmosphere, or to the reactor vessel and the coolant, and as the core starts to degrade, much higher quantities can be released. So, it's already been reported that the core has been exposed up to halfway for many days, I think that the expectation is that at least the part that was above the water line experienced extensive damage, and so the reactor vessel itself now probably might have up to, I don't know, 30 or 40 percent of some of the more volatile radionuclides like iodine and cesium in the vessel, then if the core melts through the bottom of the reactor vessel, and falls on the floor of the containment, it then can react to the concrete basement and that can generate additional gasses which will help sweep some of that material up and potentially out through a breach.

So, when all's said and done, something like 70 or 80 percent of the iodine, cesium and the fuel could actually be released to the containment atmosphere, and if the containment is breached, that's available for release. So, as bad as the releases have been so far, they could increase by several fold, ultimately, if this proceeds any further.

(SNIP)

REPORTER: What would be the worst case scenario if we have a reactor breach, and, you know, all this plutonium should just go to the sea of the ocean because it affects the sea life and the atmosphere. So, what can we impose -- what can we see as the worst?

DR. LYMAN: This is Ed Lyman.
I mean, worst case meaning that there's a breach of the reactor vessel, the core falls into the containment, it spreads out across the floor, and this would require the containment floor to be completely dry, which I'm not sure that would be the case, but if it were completely dry, it would spread out to the corners of the containment, or it could actually contact the containment liner and melt through the liner, and then you have a pathway directly from the core material to the environment.

So, then it depends on essentially how much of the radioactive isotopes that were contained in the core enter the atmosphere of the containment and then how much leak out from the containment.

There are numerous modeling and simulations over the years show that a high fraction of the isotopes like cesium and iodine would be released from the core material in this situation, and enter the atmosphere in the containment. There are a range of other isotopes, radioactive barium, tellurium, and strontium, all that have varying properties, and would be released to varying extents less than 100 percent. It could be on the order of five, ten, 20 percent, it depends.

Then there are the lowest volatile elements that include plutonium and certain lanthanides, and certain other actinides, like americium and uranium. Uranium actually under certain conditions could be released on the order of one to 10 percent, that was demonstrated in experiments over the last ten years, plutonium and the lowest volatile isotopes would be less than one percent, probably.

The ultimate consequences could exceed those at Chernobyl, because of the total inventory of radioactive material in the three reactors and potentially three spent fuel pools is many times what was in the core at Chernobyl. But the key is how much, what are the released fractions, and that's still highly uncertain.

But in this case, which is essentially a late containment failure, very late, weeks after the reactors originally scrammed, analyses typically show that there would be some -- well, first of all there's radioactive decay, like I said at the beginning, iodine, some other short list isotopes, significantly reduced, and to the extent that other parts of the reactor cooler, you might have played out, but it really has to do with when the timing of the containment failure in relation to the vessel breach.

So, if the vessel breaches and the containment failure is still delayed significantly, then you have more played out and less environmental release."

Much of this is still guesswork but at least it's guesswork by professionally trained nuclear engineers and scientists.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 11:27 AM

Thanks Charley... here's a snip from Lochbaum...

"But the real question you asked was how do you anticipate the next disaster and take steps to prevent it. And that's a challenge. It's easy to do, the difficult part, if it's done, and the harder challenge is then to get somebody to pay for the fixes for a problem that hasn't occurred.

It would be relatively easy now to get owners to pay for fixes for batteries and spent fuel maintenance and so on, that were known in advance, but nobody wanted to pay for them. This country is very good at closing the barn door, once it's opened, but not until then.

So, it's very difficult when you're dealing with low probability, high consequence events to pay for things except after the fact. I think that's true not only for the nuclear industry, but the airlines and space travel and so on. It's just a byproduct of high technology."

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 11:41 AM

Once I saw reactor 3 explode 4 or 5 thousand feet into the air I needed no guesswork as to the viability of reactor containment vessel #3. I wrote at the time it looked like a core breach is either certain or imminent.

Let me relate what happened at a similar reactor here in the US that is known as Yankee.

The NRC told the owners of the Mark 4 boiling water reactor that it was time to inspect the head/top of reactor fitting and that a shut down should be scheduled. The company decided that the cost of going offline for the weeks it would take to inspect the reactor head was prohibitive. They kept it online.

After another year had passed and it reached the time new fuel had to be loaded anyway the reactor was shut down and an inspection of the head was done.

The steel of the reactor is about 22cm thick but when they finally took a look, they found a hole the size of a pinapple and corrosion that had reduced the thickness of the containment vessel at the juncture to the head to be LESS THAN 1 cm.

btw theweight and number of spent fuel rods in water tanks exceeds all the fuel at Fukushima reactors and fuel ponds.


Back to Fukushima: corrosion of the vessel and head assembly is probably extensive, then they put corrosive sea water in them.

What do you think happened? I think that whatever was hanging on to thread finally broke. Since reactor 3 has between 5% to 10% plutonium in the containment vessel, this most deadly substance on Earth is now leaking into the sea, air and every living thing it touches or enters.


Al that is different this week is that they have admitted how "Grave and Serious" this disaster has become. It is no longer looming, it is here and it is here forever.
If there was ever a place they could safely store spent fuel it would have been done. There isn't. Whereever you throw this stuff away,, it is not away. Short of dropping it down a hole 25 niles deep into the mantle of the earth and pluggin the hole with 5 miles of boron and lead, there is no such thing as throwing it away.

and that is a fact.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
below is opinion only.

I weep not merely for the people who live in Japan for for all living things that are downwind or in the Japanese current.
Japanese people with a deep eviormental conscience feel that Earth has expressed its revenge.
The earth casting revenge upon Japan for a myriad of enviormental poisonings, wholesale murder of porpoise and whales and the evils of imperial war crimes, is a theme that is mentioned 8 times in the 1992 Godzilla vs. Mothra monster movie.
Adults in Japan grew up with a national legend of radioactivity accidents casting acts of revenge upon Japan by Earth itself.

Right or wrong the national psychological guilt over enviormetal poisoning with mecury and radiation in Japan is undeserved. I believe the United Sates of America bears more than half the respondsibility for crippling Japan with Mark 4 reactors.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 01:31 PM

Historical data ignored.
The government ignored the history of previous quakes and tsunamis in the Tohoku region (including Fukushima Prefecture) and approved the construction of the plants.

In 869, July 13, the Jogan earthquake caused extensive damage in the region, and generated waves that left sand deposits as much as 2 kilometers (1,2 miles) inland. Descriptions in history texts suggest seismic thrust of magnitude c. 8.6.

Eastern and western Japan sit on different tectonic plates, with the Tohoku region sitting near the edge of a third. Experts calculated that an event the size of the one that hit in 869 were prone to take place every 800 to 1000 years.

Prof. Y. Suzuki, Research Center for Seismology, Volcanology and Disaster Mitigation, Nagoya Univ., told the Japan Times that safety measures were not sufficient. In 2005, extensive research determined that large tsunami could be generated of the tohuku coast; the government was in a position to take immediate action and ensure the safety of the nuclear power plants in Fukushima Prefesture. Warnings were based on historic fact as well as scientific date, Suzuki said.

So far, TEPCO has refused to admit that its precautions fell short. Fukushima plants 1 (Daiichi) and 2 (Daini) were designed to resist a 5.5 meter wave based on standards set by Japan Society for Civil Engineers. The utility said it simply didn't anticipate the 10-meter-plus tsunami. It claimed historical data were considered.

Other utilities-
Hokkaido Electric Power Co. announced that it will beef up tsunami measures at its Tomari nuclear plant, where current provisions are for a 9.8 meter wave. They had considerated that the 10 meter above sea level position would protect Tomari.

Experts point to the Hamaoka nuclear plant as being at the greatest risk, since it sits atop an area where a fourth plate meets Honshu's two main plates. A quake likely to exceed magnitude 8.0 is expected there. A major quake is expected every 150 years thers, the last, magnitude 8.4, hit in 1854.

CHIBU Electric Power revealed plans for a 12-meter wall around rhe Hamaoka complex. Damage there would be a "fatal blow" to Japan, said Kobe Univ. Prof. Ishibashi.

Experts point out that all plants need overhaul.

Above extracted from Japan Times, March 27, 2011, "Signs of Disaster Were There to See," Jun Hongo, staff writer.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM

Donuel-

I certainly join you in grieving for the Japanese who will have to live with the evil legacy of these heavily damaged reactors and the radioactive waste that has gone up into the air and out into the bay.

And there will come a time for the praises and the blame, for those who acted heroically to contain the contain the damage and for those who made major mistakes in judgment and actions.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 01:44 PM

Although literary culture in Japan was at a high level over 1000 years ago (the first novel was written there in the 11th century, writers, poets and artists were held in high regard and historical and genealogic records have been preserved), some modern Japanese may regard parts of the histories as myth, much as we are skeptical of much of our more fragmentary western writings of that period.

I wonder that this may have contributed to historical data from that period being dismissed by modern engineers.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 02:28 PM

Very interesting Q.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 02:54 PM

The modern engineers only had to look at recent quakes, like the 9.2 in Alaska in 1964, and other pretty darn big ones in the ring of fire...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 03:46 PM

mg-

Good point. The earthquake record worldwide was there to consider, but they evidently went with the more regional record.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:30 PM

Bad point.
Why use specifications for areas not on the tectonic plate boundaries involved?
That doesn't make sense. Very little would be constructed anywhere if that were done.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:52 PM

You wanna be a grasshopper or an ant?

Here's the grasshopper's design proposal for the 10.0 that is surely coming... drink up and forget building anything. Why bother?

I'm with the ants.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 08:30 PM

Well, we could continue this argument but I do agree that science should dictate what the criteria should be. However, I could also suggest that that seldom happens when utility board members get involved.

One of the running problems with nuclear power has always been that the design has to be very good, the operation near flawless, or there is a risk of a catastrophic accident. No other energy source has so much public risk.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 09:18 PM

True Charley. Absolutely true. On all counts.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 10:07 PM

The people running it have to be honest and transparent and have overseers and be answerable not only to their own countries but to neighboring ones at least. They can not be above the law, as seems to be the case in Japan, where they operated after being shut down for falsifying safety records. I think they should not be allowed to leave the country in a crisis and their finances should be able to be investigated. Temptations to cutting costs, especially by dishonesty and coverups, should be eliminated. They should be subject to international standards and submit to international inspections. First and foremost, do not trust people running this particular show. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:54 AM

NHK...

Tokyo Electric Power Company says it has detected radioactive materials 10-million-times normal levels in water at the No.2 reactor complex of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

The plant operator, known as TEPCO, says it measured 2.9-billion becquerels of radiation per one cubic centimeter of water from the basement of the turbine building attached to the Number 2 reactor.

The level of contamination is about 1,000 times that of the leaked water already found in the basements of the Number 1 and 3 reactor turbine buildings.

The company says the latest reading is 10-million times the usual radioactivity of water circulating within a normally operating reactor.
TEPCO says the radioactive materials include 2.9-billion becquerels of iodine-134, 13-million becquerels of iodine-131, and 2.3-million becquerels each for cesium 134 and 137.

These substances are emitted during nuclear fission inside a reactor core.

The company says the extremely contaminated water may stem from damaged fuel in the reactor, and are trying to determine how the leakage occurred.

University of Tokyo graduate school professor Naoto Sekimura says the leak may come from the suppression chamber of the Number 2 reactor, which is known to be damaged. The chamber is designed to contain overflows of radioactive substances from the reactor.

Sunday, March 27, 2011 13:44 +0900 (JST)



Radiation levels 40 percent higher than the yearly limit for the general public has been detected just over 30 kilometers from the Fukushima Daiichi power plant.

The Science Ministry says a reading of 1.4 millisieverts was taken on Wednesday morning in Namie Town northwest of the plant.

The government has not told residents outside the 30-kilometer radius of the plant to evacuate, or even to stay indoors.

Someone staying outdoors for 24-hours at that location would exceed the annual limit of one millisievert. The limit is based on a recommendation by the International Commission on Radiological Protection.

The science ministry obtained the reading after monitoring 10 locations outside the 30-kilometer zone, following reports that relatively high levels of radiation were found outside that area.

Radiation exerts now say the amount of radiation detected does not pose a health risk. But they advise residents in the area to stay alert for any possible rise in radiation levels, because the power plant is not likely to stop releasing radiation any time soon.

Sunday, March 27, 2011 08:53 +0900 (JST)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:06 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12872707

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:49 AM

There's news, but none of it is particularly good I'm sorry to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 10:06 AM

It doesn't look good to me this morning for the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex site or the adjacent bay, or anywhere downwind. The reports from CNN this morning cite radiation readings in the coolant system 10,000,000 times background which I find very alarming. There has to be melted fuel rods by this time in all three reactors and most likely four of the spent fuel pools, and some major breach in the primary containment of one or more of the units or in the wall of a spent fuel pool or two for those kind of readings.

Utility workers are going to attempt to recheck their radiation readings today. It's possible that their instruments were not set properly to get such extraordinarily high readings. I hope they made some sort of blunder.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:35 AM

Yesterday they reported 1,200 above normal then 8 hours later 10,000 above normal and last night 10,000,000 times above normal and now they said we really don;t have any good monitoring devices working in that area so we apologize for any confusion.


classic

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:42 AM

I heard a piece of music that had rhythmic beeps representing each atmosphereic test of thermonuclear bombs. and long whines for plant disasters, not great but inspirational for a musical work to explore the subject further.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:11 PM

From Al Jazeera:

"The operator of Japan's Fukushima Daiichi quake-crippled nuclear complex has said a spike reported in radioactivity at the plant is a mistake.

Jiji Press quoted the Tokyo Electric Power (TEPCO) as saying on Sunday that the mistake - which indicated radiation levels 10 million times higher than normal - was due to confusion between readings of iodine and cobalt in the water.

The inaccurate reading had forced emergency workers to flee from the complex's Unit 2 reactor.

"The number is not credible," said TEPCO's spokesman, Takashi Kurita. "We are very sorry."

He said officials were taking another sample to get accurate levels, but did not know when the results would be announced.

The situation came as officials acknowledged there was radioactive water in all four of the Fukushima Daiichi complex's most troubled reactors, and as airborne radiation in Unit 2 measured 1,000 millisieverts per hour - four times the limit deemed safe by the government, Kurita said.

The plant has been crippled by an earthquake and a tsunami that devastated northeastern Japan two weeks ago, sparking fears of high levels of radiation.

Officials say they still do not know where the radioactive water is coming from, though government spokesman Yukio Edano has said some is "almost certainly" seeping from a cracked reactor core in one of the units.

While the discovery of the high radiation levels - and the evacuation of workers from one reactor unit - again delayed efforts to bring the deeply troubled complex under control, Edano insisted the situation had partially stabilised.

"We have somewhat prevented the situation from turning worse," he told reporters Sunday evening.

"But the prospects are not improving in a straight line and we've expected twists and turns. The contaminated water is one of them and we'll continue to repair the damage."

The discovery over the last three days of radioactive water has been a major setback in the mission to get the plant's crucial cooling systems operating more than two weeks after a massive earthquake and tsunami."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:15 PM

People seem to like Edano and suggest he might be the next Prime Minister. If you have a measurement, and presumably several, why do you not know when you plan to release the information? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:42 PM

from NHK...

Tokyo Electric Power Company has retracted its announcement that 10 million times the normal density of radioactive materials had been detected in water at the Number 2 reactor of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

The utility says it will conduct another test of the leaked water at the reactor's turbine building.

The company said on Sunday evening that the data for iodine-134 announced earlier in the day was actually for another substance that has a longer half-life.

The plant operator said earlier on Sunday that 2.9 billion becquerels per cubic centimeter had been detected in the leaked water.

It said although the initial figure was wrong, the water still has a high level of radioactivity of 1,000 millisieverts per hour.

Sunday, March 27, 2011 22:02 +0900 (JST)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 01:07 PM

From articles in Japan Times-
Japan is re-evsluating is energy plans, but no new policy will be agreed upon for some time.
The current basic energy plan, June 2010, called for nuclear power to be the "core source of energy in the medium and long term," and outlined a program of at least 14 new reactors by 2030, with nine slated for completion by 2020.
Following the disaster at the Fukushima plant at Tohoku, local communities may not agree to host new plants.

Since there is no alternative, abandoning atomic energy seems to be unrealistic. More thermal plants have been suggested, but lead-in time is about ten years.

Both the Japan Times and the New York Times carry finger-pointing articles, as academics and scientists point to missed or ignored indicators of large tsunamis on the part of both government and energy companies.

Both surface, and as far as I can determine from sketchy groundwater info on the net, groundwaters in this part of Tohoku carry runoff to the sea.
Tepco is criticized for conflicting radioactivity measurements, but with damaged instruments at critical points, it is hard to get accurate data.

NISA's Nishiyama said the levels of radioactive iodine at reactor no. 2, 1000 millisieverts/hour and more, definitely indicate a nuclear fission source, but he believes that the core and containment vessel are still intact and that the radioactive water may be seeping from damaged pipes and valves.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM

TTokyo Electric Power Company has announced a correction of its radiation figures for the water in the Unit 2 reactor building. It's not 10,000,000 more than background, just 100,000. Whew! I was beginning to worry. Don't you all feel better as well?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 03:25 PM

I do feel better. I would send in I Like Math Barbie but for sure she is not real.

The electric company has "declined" an independent monitor. Why are they in a position to "decline" anything? Again I ask, who is running this country and this disaster.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japan_earthquake

Why is there not martial law at least for this company? I would imagine because they have insured it through graft and corruption and perhaps worse. There is a big article in the Oregonian today about how the government is "urging" TEPCO to "come clean." Why is there urging as opposed to insisting. I presume there is great fear of TEPCO for some reason, or whoever owns TEPCO. Plus TEPCO probably has said, go ahead and shut us down. We don't want to stay anyway but we have the secret drawings that can possibly save the day and they are hidden in a vault somewhere.

Something is really really wrong and it is not just dubious (and I am being so kind here) engineering and lack of planning for emergencies.

Something is really really wrong with the government. Are they puppets? Who is pulling the strings? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 03:46 PM

NHK, March 27, 22:02, now says that TEPCO says the level is 1000 microsieverts for the Iodine-134, which is still very high- see comment by Nishiyama, above. NHK on line.

The 'false' reading was for another substance with a longer half-life.
They did not name it- any guesses, Charley?

The toxic 'puddles' are being removed (Japan Times)

Soil samples are being checked for plutonium by independent labs.

NHK Japan TV is available here as a pay channel. The cable company opened it yesterday free, but unless one speaks Japanese, it is no help.
I did watch a cooking show, because it was filmed in London and had the Japanese translator superimposed.
It was about cooking eels. They showed a Londoner preparing eel pie, then a chef with a rather complicated recipe (both recipes given in detail). I added eel to my list of things to avoid.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:18 PM

Q-

Cesium-137 is the next most likely candidate with a half-life of 30 years, or 300 to 600 years to return to background level depending how conservative one is.

I'm glad to hear they were cooking the eels. I hate it when you try to swallow them uncooked and they begin squirming...

I was listening to one CNN expert being quizzed today on what the worst case scenario might be from this point. After some hemming and hawing, he suggested a lava of molted core material escaping from the primary containment and spilling out onto the grounds of the site and then into the bay. I would add that I'm not sure what there is in such a lava's path that would be flammable, but if there were something there would certainly be a very dangerous fire spewing radioactive volatiles into the atmosphere. Very bad news for anyone downwind.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:46 PM

Q... I get it here in English... dunno why you can't.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 05:01 PM

Could they not build a wall very high around the area? Cement. Perhaps a moat? Oh..Cement must be brought in from CHina. Too late. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:36 PM

Gnu- I get the English NHK news on the net like you-I have quoted from it occasionally. The channel I was speaking of is much like NBC or whatever, with drama, sports, and all that stuff in addition to short newscasts, for the general Japanese audience.

If we subscribe, we can get a couple of Italian TV channels, Deutsche Welle, Indonesian, Arabic, Indian, Greek and all that furrin stuff. Only BBC America and BBC News America from UK, however. The UK channels seen over there are left out- objections from Canadian and U. S. networks??

Thanks, Charley. The Caesium is a likely candidate- don't know why they didn't name it.
If material from the primary containment escaped, I doubt that it would go far as a flow- but escaping into the air and into groundwater is still a worst case scenario.
It seems to be getting to the stage where reactors 1 and 2 will have to be buried.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 09:47 PM

mg-

Melted reactor fuel will eat its way though a wall of concrete as it does through a thick wall of stainless steel. It's really hard to stop as long as there is a good supply of it.

Is something now being reported for reactor Unit 1?

I'm not expecting that tomorrow's news will be better.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:19 PM

mg sincerely asked why. Why?

Because TEPCO is a private company and much prefers doing or not doing anything it damn well pleases to profit in a manner that is in keeping with the super capitalistic goals of a free marketplace.
Are any of you communists going to argue with that?
I didn't think so.

bottom line

It is their business and none of your business.
_______________________________________________

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:29 PM

I would think there would be some limits on a private company, even one that seems to own the government. I am certainly not against private companies or capitalism, but with pretty sound boundaries, and in cases where the ecology and economy of the country and other countries is in jeopardy, then have a way to pull the plug on them. I hope if they are allowed to operate in the future (by whom??) they are limited to solar and wind energy and maybe tide but they could probably screw that up. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:55 PM

Aint no limits

Did you happen to catch the 93 Trillion dollar rip off scheme back in 1998?

The great home harvest?
The culling of the herd?
The Honey harvest from middle class hives only?

The great derivitive perogative?

Limits are things like laws, regulations, collective bargaining, taxation etc.


Of course for a free market economy to work, the most essential factor would be that everyone would self moderate their desires, passions and become purely obcessive about their objectives.

Its not a free market when all there is are 3 branches of too big to fail monopolies: banking, health and energy.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 12:05 AM

What we see is the result of business as usual.

It is failing now, and even if we stopped all the madness...
The waste will always be waste and is unique in that it will always be a huge problem.
This nuke business is counting on some way to tell people 12,000 years from now to get away. The check is in the mail.

We can't even agree on what an old testament meant, and its only been around a few thousand years.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 08:10 AM

I expect there now will be some serious speculation on the enormous economic and environmental impact of this continuing disaster.

I fully expected that at some point TEPCO and or the Japanese Government would have to acknowledge that the tons of salt water they'd been spraying on the damaged reactor buildings was draining somewhere as a highly radioactive spill. Some has obviously already made its way to the adjacent bay.

It's time to rename this thread to "Nuclear Plant Disaster Continuing," for it will unfortunately continue for the foreseeable future.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 10:34 AM

The unbelievable idiots told the workers standing in seawater doing electrical work to put plastic bags over their street shoes rather than having special footwear. I would assume that an electrician would have his or own special footwear for wet conditions, not nuclear conditions, but even so...why are these idiots basically controlling the destiny of at least part of their country, region, or perhaps the oceans of the world?   I never in a million years would have predicted this level of stupidity from Japan, but that is what it is. It is totally beyond my comprehension.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/radiation-levels-reach-new-highs-as-conditions-worsen-for-workers/2011/03/27/AFsMLFiB_print.html

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 12:00 PM

Charley... "...that the tons of salt water they'd been spraying on the damaged reactor buildings was draining somewhere as a highly radioactive spill."

Hmmm... unless a pool(s) was filled to overflowing or a core(s) was breeched, that wouldn't be the case. Of course, it could have been the case but I think it's more likely that there's a piping/valve breech. In any case, they had to do what they had to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 12:48 PM

Now the Fukushima-1 nuclear plant officials are acknowledging, via CNN at noon, that they discovered plutonium in the soil a week ago outside the reactor buildings. There is no explanation how plutonium (a highly toxic long-lived radioactive element) might have been deposited there but there had to be some kind of break in Unit 3, the other reactor at the complex that uses a composite plutonium-Uranium fuel. So was it from a breach in the spent fuel pool wall or the reactor primary containment? And was it borne out of the reactor building in one of the hydrogen explosions?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 12:54 PM

Here's a depressing link showing what is evidently functioning in the control room of one of the Fukushima-1 reactors as posted and discussed by the Union of Concerned Scientists: click here for update!

The only thing electrical that appears to be functioning are the overhead lights. I hope they remember to turn them off when they abandon the building.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 12:59 PM

If the above updates are not enough to alarm you, try this update from NIRS commenting on what can be seen from a recent helicopter video of the damaged reactor buildings:

"A striking video taken yesterday morning from a helicopter above Fukushima shows incredible damage and continuing radioactive steam leaks.

According to this report from the Japan Atomic Industrial Forum, the video appears to show that a heavy crane fell onto the fuel pool at Unit 3 and may have damaged the pool."

If you go to the NIRS website you can access the video.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:06 PM

NHK... "16 tons of water was being injected into the reactor every hour but TEPCO now says it wants to reduce the amount to 7 tons. This would be enough to replace the amount that is evaporating."

Water in turbine buildings 1,2,and 3 and in the mecahical/electrical "trench" (I assume tunnel) between the turbine buildings and the ocean is contaminated.

I think Charley may be right on this one.

What a nightmare.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM

Can't find the video Charley.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:22 PM

That UCS update is, ah, er... interesting, to say the VERY least.

I am not even a fan of the CANDU anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:08 PM

I think he means this video:

http://www.youtube.com/user/modchannel#p/a/u/0/ZKFGavZ_rf4

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:09 PM

Not much to add to Charley's posts.

Nissan is considering moving engine plants to U. S. Toyota is trying limited production, but some parts will soon run out.
Much of industry still shut down.
Loss of power from Fukushima affecting industry all across Japan.


Last night Japanese television carried a highschool baseball game with Tohoku as one of the teams, and a very strong one. The Tohoku area is where the Fukushima complex is.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:18 PM

NHK... 20k+ US troops on the way for distribution of supplies. 134 nations have offered help. 26 nations have sent supplies. 20 nations have emergency teams in Japan. US military sending radiation gear for workers (Demron suits perhaps?). US fresh water barges on the way.