BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 02:01 PM

999-

"Ken'ichi Kunisawa and his fellow firefighters braved boiling nuclear reactors for more than 13 hours. He talks to Lennox Samuels about radiation fears and why this wasn't a kamikaze mission."

Here's your link: click here!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 02:37 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/04/japan-nuclear-plant-radiation_n_844436.html

Mentions the dye used. I have wondered for days why they don't pump dye through to find out where cracks are. That is standard practice in some areas...

But why did they not use commercial dyes? It says they used salts used to make bathwater milky white. Why not bright red or pink dye made for some sort of purpose? What are they thinking? How can you tell milky white from regular ocean foam sometimes? At least as well as red dye. Who is in charge? Who did they consult?

Question every single thing they do because it probably needs it. Do not assume they have consulted with anybody, they have experts of their own on hand etc. Do not assume that they will act quickly even to just position supplies should they need them. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 03:42 PM

You can google radioactive waste filter and come up with stuff.

Here is a ceramic one
http://ceramics.org/ceramictechtoday/materials-innovations/quts-zhu-has-ceramic-filter-for-radioactive-waste/

Do you want to put bets on whether IIC (stands for Idiots In Charge) have even contacted him/her or anyone?

Someone on somewhere suggested hemp can filter. There are other filters possible it seems. This is good news. Oh goodness, we will have to go through our regular purchasing department and they are backed up. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 03:47 PM

here is one that attracts strontium through volcanic rock

http://buffalo.ynn.com/content/top_stories/521927/treatment-wall-to-filter-radioactive-waste/

One thing we have here in WA is lots of volcanic ash from Mt. St. Helen's..it has now grown over with weeds and trees and looks like little hills and dikes but underneath is almost solid ash. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 04:29 PM

Thanks to both Charlie and the Mod for that link. Much appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 05:20 PM

Radiation exposure times for Ibaraki Prefecture, others adjacent, plotted in charts, Japan Times, April 5.

For Ibaraki today, it would be equivalent to 320-360 weeks = sufficient exposure to cause radiation sickness (interactive chart).
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/radiation-visualization.html

Ibaraki

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 05:39 PM

General Electric continues to have a team of 1000 engineers (employees and retired) working with TEPCO.
All of the plant's reactors were designed by GE.
GE is sending gas turbines to help deal with the power shortfall of 10 million kilowatts expected this summer.
Associated Press, writers, in Huffington Post, April 4, 2011.

The dye added to the suspected leak did not reach the sea. The leak is not from the crack in the pit.
(Same report)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM

mg - the ceramic filters you are talking about clearly DO NOT EXIST, from what the story says. They are a blue-sky idea that has never yet been tested experimentally, let alone put into production.

The Fukushima workers need to deal with tens of thousands of tons of dangerously radioactive water RIGHT NOW. They can't wait 20 years for the perfect product, nor can they afford to move in shiploads of stuff that has no proven record of doing anything at all (like hemp or volcanic ash).

Your speculations are offensively condescending.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 05:58 PM

If this does not go on for 20 years I for one will be very happy. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 06:09 PM

THe way I read it the filter (oh maybe just one in all the world) does exist and the nanofibers exist..certainly not in quantity I am pretty sure. But here is a real live test they can do on a few prototypes..measure flow of a small area against how much is trapped.

And everyone in the world had best put their heads together on this..some ideas will be foolish and some will be flops and perhaps one will work. Or is better to be cynical if not nasty to people trying to help?

And something is going to filter this stuff sooner or later..baleen whales? Shellfish? Don't know. mg

from article about ceramic scientist

(Graphic: Zhu)
Water contaminated in nuclear power applications and other situations where radiactive elements used can be a significant problems, especially because of the volume compared to the actual amount of radiactive particles. What if there was a fairly simple way to run the water through a filter and remove those materials? Queensland University of Technology's Zhu Huai Yong says he has just such a filter. ......But Zhu's forté is ceramic filters. Zhu thinks there has to be a better way of storing contaminated fluids like water other than to put them in barrels or lakes. His idea involves ceramic fibers that will capture and "outlive" the decaying material.

"We have created ceramic nanofibres which attract and trap radioactive cations (positively charged ions), possibly forever," Zhu said. "The ceramic material can last a very long time, much longer than the radioactivity of a radioactive ion. The fibres are in very thin layers, less than one nanometre in width, and the radioactive ions are attracted into the space between the layers. Once the ceramic material absorbs a certain amount, the layers collapse to lock the radioactive ions inside."
Zhu's fibers are made from titanium dioxide, and are about 40 microns in length. In an interview with Nanowerk, Zhu explained some of the details behind his filter:

"Natural inorganic cation exchange materials, such as clays and zeolites, have been extensively studied and used in the removal of radioactive ions from water via ion exchange and are subsequently disposed of in a safe way. However, synthetic inorganic cation exchange materials – such as synthetic micas, g-zirconium phosphate, niobate molecular sieves, and titanate – have been found to be far superior to natural materials in terms of selectivity for the removal of radioactive cations from water. Radioactive cations are preferentially exchanged with sodium ions or protons in the synthetic material. More importantly, a structural collapse

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 06:10 PM

that was me above of course committed to saving the planet. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 09:32 PM

About 2000 tons of fuel plus the radioactive water (which is heavy)
probably is close to 10000 tons of deadly mess

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 10:32 PM

I'm also surprised that the TEPCO engineers didn't have a team working on at least increasing the storage capacity on-site for the huge volumes of radioactive water they were running through the damaged reactors and the spent fuel pools. It should have been evident early on that there was a problem being created. In fact I even anticipated this problem much earlier in this thread in one of my posts.

One might also think that after the water had cooled down in a tank or trench that it could be recycled and used for cooling again, another basic but useful concept that would add another cycle of radiation but wouldn't dump it into the bay.

But, no, someone decided that the bay was there as a source for emergency cooling and for a dump for radioactive waste.

TEPCO's decisions seem a classic example of short-run thinking generating long-run problems. And I bet everyone in the board room is ducking for cover.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:29 AM

They must be shoved aside, and I mean at gun point if necessary, and have someone else take over..military, NATO, I don't know who...they are absolutely incompetent and lives have been lost and if no more lives are lost it will be a miracle...this is a public health nightmare, an environmetnal nightmare, an economic nightmare, and just wait until fish in North Korea are inedible for a starving population. Put as much pressure on through world opinion as possible. It is the only hope. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 02:14 AM

Sorry I misspelled your name Charley.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 03:30 AM

According to Ken'ichi Kunisawa, (see linked article), the TEPCO workers and troops near the hot zone are putting their lives at risk to do what they can to get the situation under control. Having some outside group get in there uninvited, some outside group that's new to the situation would just add to the CF that seems to be going on. The folks I'd want to speak with were it my decision would be the firefighters and other personnel who worked the Chernobyl incident back in the 1980s. They've been there and done that.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 05:36 AM

I'm also surprised that the TEPCO engineers didn't have a team working on at least increasing the storage capacity on-site for the huge volumes of radioactive water they were running through the damaged reactors and the spent fuel pools.

They seem to have more problem collecting the water after it ran through than in storing it. IF they could have sucked it all up again, I suppose an empty oil tanker might do it (obviously they can't construct anything that big with the time they've got). But when it's all just running through cracks in the foundations, what else can they do but what they're doing now?

The priority has to be preventing a worse fuel melt (which could make the whole site inaccessible and send it on the path to total flaming
disintegration). They have to accept a certain amount of escaped coolant water to achieve that.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 07:07 AM

4,080 becquerels pr kg found in small fish (no limit for fish but 2,000 is limit for veg):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12967904

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 09:04 AM

Evidently no one here is making any effort to review reports of Japan's nuclear industry and TEPCO's particular history of accidents and cover-ups. One recent review via AP was filed two weeks ago and it is a damning report: click here for article

Here's an excerpt:

"Behind Japan's escalating nuclear crisis sits a scandal-ridden energy industry in a comfy relationship with government regulators often willing to overlook safety lapses.
Leaks of radioactive steam and workers contaminated with radiation are just part of the disturbing catalog of accidents that have occurred over the years and been belatedly reported to the public, if at all.

'"Everything is a secret,' said Kei Sugaoka, a former nuclear power plant engineer in Japan who now lives in California. 'There's not enough transparency in the industry.'
Sugaoka worked at the same utility that runs the Fukushima Dai-Ichi nuclear plant where workers are racing against time to prevent a full meltdown following Friday's 9.0 magnitude quake and tsunami.

In 1989 Sugaoka received an order that horrified him: edit out footage showing cracks in plant steam pipes in video being submitted to regulators(emphasis added). Sugaoka alerted his superiors in the Tokyo Electric Power Co., but nothing happened. He decided to go public in 2000. Three TEPCO executives lost their jobs."

Wikipedia has similar incidents summarized for TEPCO over the years (lower down in same link) and it's obvious that TEPCO's management of its facilities is substandard if not criminal. Check it out if you have your doubts.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 10:57 AM

NHK

The operator of the crisis-hit Fukushima nuclear plant has injected a hardening agent beneath a leaking concrete pit in a bid to stem the flow of highly radioactive water into the sea.

The firm says the leakage seems to be decreasing, following the infusion of the hardening agent.

The utility showed reporters a photo of the leak on Tuesday evening, saying it indicates such a decrease.

TEPCO said it will infuse another 1,500 liters of liquid glass.

Tokyo Electric Power Company started infusing liquid glass into gravel below the pit near the Number 2 reactor at 3 PM on Tuesday.

TEPCO spotted a crack in the pit 3 days ago while trying to find the source of the leakage of contaminated water into the Pacific Ocean.

Since then, the utility has tried in vein to seal the pit with concrete, or to plug piping leading into it with a polymer mixture.

A test using a dye agent showed the possibility that the radioactive water is leaking from a cracked pipe, and then seeping through gravel into the concrete pit.

TEPCO is planning to board up the breached sections of an offshore dike to prevent the tainted water from spreading further into the sea.

It is also considering building underwater barriers at 3 locations, including one near a water intake for the Number 2 reactor.

Tuesday, April 05, 2011 20:24 +0900 (JST)

And the pics show a much reduced flow.

Small fish caught in waters off the coast of Ibaraki have been found to contain radioactive cesium above the legal limit.

Ibaraki is south of Fukushima prefecture, where the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant is located.

Ibaraki Prefecture says 526 becquerels of radioactive cesium was detected in one kilogram of sand lances. The acceptable limit is 500 becquerels. It is the first time that higher-than-permitted levels of radioactive cesium have been found in fish.

All local fishery cooperatives in the prefecture have agreed to suspend sand lance fishing at the request of the prefectural government.

Tuesday, April 05, 2011 18:58 +0900 (JST)

The operator of the stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant says 7.5 million times the legal limit of radioactive iodine 131 has been detected from samples of seawater near the plant.

Tokyo Electric Power Company, or TEPCO, found on Saturday that contaminated water was leaking from a cracked concrete pit near the No. 2 reactor.

Experts say this makes it clear that highly radioactive substances from the reactor are flowing into the sea, and that the leak must be stopped as soon as possible.

The utility firm said samples of water taken near the water intake of the No. 2 reactor at 11:50 AM Saturday contained 300,000 becquerels of iodine 131 per cubic centimeter, or 7.5 million times the legal limit.
TEPCO said the figure had dropped to 200,000 becquerels per cubic centimeter, or 5 million times the legal limit, in samples taken at 9:00 AM Monday.

Monday's sample also contained 1.1 million times the legal limit of cesium 137, which has a half life of 30 years.

On March 27th, 13-million becquerels of iodine 131 per cubic centimeter of water were detected in the turbine building of the No. 2 reactor. On Wednesday, water was found accumulated in a tunnel near the turbine building and the radiation level on the surface was measured at more than 1,000 millisieverts per hour.

The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency says it believes the radioactive substances are from nuclear fuel which leaked from the reactor into the water and flowed out.

Tuesday, April 05, 2011 15:10 +0900 (JST)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 11:48 AM

"Somehow water is leaking from the plant into the sea"

"It seems that radiation has spread with the normal wind currents but radiation is a normal part of the universe"









Am I the only one who is outraged by this kind of rhetorical propoganda ?


It seems protecting the concept of a same sustainable economy is the paramount reason to lie with such elegance words as "somehow" and "seems" For Fukwitt's sake, didn't you see and hear reactor 2 EXPLODE? Talking about how safe radioactive Iodine is...is horrible crime. Speaking of how Iodine goes away quickly to the exclusion of talking about the isotopes that virtually NEVER go away is a despicable lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 11:50 AM

Kudos to all here who help counter the lie by posting real time data

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 11:52 AM

gnu-

"Radioactive cesium" in fish is a major health problem. As mentioned somewhere above Cesium-137 has a half-life of 30 years or so, and remains dangerous to roughly ten times that period. It tends to accumulate in the bodies of whoever eats it (other fish, raptors, or humans) rather than being discharged. Thus, over time, it becomes an increasing threat to life as we know it.

"TEPCO said the figure had dropped to 200,000 becquerels per cubic centimeter, or 5 million times the legal limit, in samples taken at 9:00 AM Monday."

And that's the good news...

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:59 PM

A bit of digression. Many ideas for product or safety improvement may not reach the decision-makers. Suggestions being made here, and many others, may have been thought of and proposed, but died on the way to the decision makers.

I was thinking about the structure of the average corporation.
There often is a disjunct between the objectives at the decision levels in the hierarchy. From the top:

CEO and Board
These men usually habe proven ability to maximize shareholder shareholder profit and expansion. They may have little detailed knowledge of the company's products, whether widgets or resources.

Heads of Operations
These men may have risen from the technical ladder, but most often are from the business management divisions- marketing, finance.
Their decisions are based on the upper level's need (shareholder profit and expansion) although they depend on the chiefs of the divisions producing the product or resource.

Divisional Operations
These groups have the technical manpower with the expertise to develop and improve the product, or to find and exploit the resource.
Although they are the basis of the company, they are not concerned with the marketing, presentation, politics of the product or resource. Usually there is a group that considers the safety of product and employees and makes recommendations for improvement.

A division at the base may have a good idea, which they present to their management heads. It may be accepted and presented to the next level, or it may be shelved- budget, set-up expense, price, outside the scope of a directive from on high, etc.

Heads of operations organize and present the product, resource development or safety provisions to the Board and CEO, whose decisions are based on marketability, economy of operation, fit to shareholders needs, politics, etc.

The technical employees at the bottom thus often see an idea, product or safety recommendation die or be shelved, never reaching the top of the hierarchy.

Some companies try to establish good communications among the levels but some are rigid and comunication is discouraged or punished. TEPCO may have been a member of the latter group.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 01:07 PM

Note:

An established LEGAL LIMIT
carries with it an established cost risk benefit in which a certain number of acceptable deaths is deemed legal.

Do not let the words legal limit ever become equated with SAFE.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 01:22 PM

Q-

I like your outline of the issues relating to the different levels within a hierarchy. The corporate culture of TEPCO will certainly get some much needed attention.

In this case, with TEPCO, we're somewhat aware of how the entire hierarchy got stressed after the earthquake and tsunami, and stressed further as the disaster continues to unfold. We don't know who or what group (or whether they were replaced) was put in charge of trying to deal with this disaster.

What we don't know is how well it functioned in "normal operating condition" except for the incidents in its history. Were safety concerns of those at the operating level overlooked by those higher up?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 01:32 PM

Too true Q. And, I have found the propensity for such in a corporation is directly proportional to the size of the corporartion. Which may explain why the government departments (Canuck, at least) are so incompetent and wasteful.

I've posted this on other threads... I was once told to design a structure (I designed for a 40 year life but could have designed for 20 and still slept at night) for a 5 year life because the CEO had a 5 year contract. Now, 5 years for this structure was impossible but so was the attitude of the VP. He didn't give a shit about life cycle costs, only about the "costs" until he retired.

Another thing that I found was that some managers would not take ideas upward as they didn't want to be seen as not having done their jobs better in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM

Safety concerns? Try safety inspections..widely reported they were falsified and people had to resign and they shut down a number of plants..easily verifiable...

And the president is or was in the hospital. Don't know if it was him or next in command...but I would assume engineers would be at the top. No, it was someone who had been in charge of procurement. Now this makes their utter inability to procure simple things, like food, even more astounding.

I do not know if they have some sort of specialized knowledge that keeps them at the helm..they are concealing it well if there is..but they need to be told what to do and when. And face the law as soon as possible. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 02:09 PM

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110405x1.html

From Japan

We will hopefully be able to laugh about some of this in the future..the milky white bath salts instead of professional, easily obtainable dyes in standard usage for example.

Now they plan to board up the sea to make an enclosed lagoon. By board up I presume they mean with boards. Well, lots of them available. Where are the experts? Where is the military? Do they not have a navy? An air force? Can the "procurement" experts step it up a bit?

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM

What is your problem with them using bath salts as a tracer, if it works? - which it appears to have done.

One piece of instrumentation they might be using is partly composed of earwax. It just happens that earwax is the ideal substance for the job, however silly you might find the idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 03:17 PM

They are talking about tanker trucks I think to store the bad water in..why not oil tanker type ships. Surely someone has some about to be scrapped. Or that should be and are still sailing. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 04:20 PM

mg-

They may not be able to approach close enough with a large tanker in the adjacent bay. However, an oil barge might well suit their purposes, if they didn't sink it. They're already using barges to transport fresh water to the plant site. So barges could certainly be towed in, unload their fresh water and then load up with the evil radioactive water, becoming so much more nuclear waste themselves in the process, and then be towed somewhere else.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 04:32 PM

I miss the press updates from UCS. None since Thursday.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 04:37 PM

What is the latest on filters?

And here is something

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/apr/05/tokyo-electric-power-company-turns-toxic

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 04:43 PM

Tow them somewhere else? Puget Sound? (Opposite side of the country from you, Charley.)

The idea is not likely, because they would have to be emptied (into what?) and decontaminated before other use or scrapping. They would be pariahs anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 05:06 PM

Barges or tankers COULD work if necessary, but tanks are much more logistically possible at present... or a combination. I think it's just logistics, as I said earlier. If the world wants to contain the crap it can. Heck, the Japanese could do it if the rest of the world wanted to take one for the team and not take delivery of tanks on order in lieu of saving the planet (yeah, I know... but it's a small world innit?). All it takes is the will and the money and they have said they have lots of money. There are lots of tanks under construction at any given moment all over the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 05:21 PM

They have submitted plans for more reactors same spot

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/amid_nuclear_crisis_japans_tepco_planned_new_reactors/2011/04/05/AFtBbfkC_story.html?wprss=rss_homepage

Granted..it was in the works and you could see how it could slip through in the ensuing chaos...but it sounds like they really pushed for it as the crisis was going on..and still is.

I just can not wrap my head around this. But they have to go. The most they should be allowed to do is clean new energy. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 05:25 PM

I think we have to not look at this as a democracy, which is pretty recent...but as remnants of a feudal system.

The farmer serfs..oh well.

Worker serfs..just keep them locked up in the plant to do or die.

Fisher serfs..oh well.

Baby serfs..so sad.

Mama-san and Papa-san serfs .. we do not have to tell them bugger all or provide food or water for days and days. It is OK to lie to m and p serfs. What do serfs know anyway? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 07:25 PM

From the BBC today:

Russia says Japan has asked it to send a radiation treatment ship used to dispose of liquid nuclear waste from decommissioned submarines.

The ship, called Suzuran, treats radioactive liquid and stores it. Russia was considering the request, a spokesman for its nuclear agency said.

So, they're a long step ahead of what I suggested. I didn't know there were ships like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 07:47 PM

Japanese engineer: "When designing a nuclear plant we do not look at scary things we do not want think about, its just human nature"

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 08:02 PM

Don, buddy, cmon eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 08:33 PM

Jack-

"Russia says Japan has asked it to send a radiation treatment ship used to dispose of liquid nuclear waste from decommissioned submarines. The ship, called Suzuran, treats radioactive liquid and stores it."

Interesting that the Russians would have something like that. I wonder if it really works or simply sucks it up and then regurgitates it into someone else's back bay. But I like the name of the ship, the Suzuran; it will work well in the song.

I was thinking that the barges would be towed to some on-shore facility that was properly designed for processing and compacting radioactive water. But I'm not even sure if they have one in Japan. Why would they need one when nothing like this is likely to happen?

There's no reason for other countries to be smug. Their own redundant back-up systems may also be equally vulnerable to natural or terrorist events.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 08:56 PM

Radioactive water has stopped leaking into the sea after gravel beneath the concrete pit was hardened after pouring 1500 liters of the hardening agent, liquid glass, into the gravel.
Tepco, April 6.
Low-level radioactive water continues flowing into the sea to make space for higher-level radioactive water.
Tepco is trying to control radioactive dust by spraying a synthetic resin around the reactors. The company reports success with this operation.
NHK world news, April 6, 2011.

Sand lance (a fish) fishing has stopped off the Ibaraki coast because the radioactive caesium in the fish reached 526 becquerels (limit is 500).
The high levels of caesium and iodine are believed to have been leakage from the reactor, according to the NISA (Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency).
NHK April 5.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 09:56 PM

I read somewhere the facility (didn't know it was a ship) was funded by Japan. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 10:27 PM

Good news, Q.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 11:07 PM

I just saw video of the water leak from yesterday compared to today. Today instead of a gusher 9 inches round it is a 1 inch spour of water. CNN

They said the stresses are continuing to mount at the reactors.

The worst case scenario of many reactors melting simultaneously remains a possibility.

There has been outside help fromt he US Navy and teams of NRC and others. France is said to be contributing some help.

Yes as it is today it is a disaster. Tommorrow could bring world wide calamity whether people are told or not.

Japan has suffered grim birth defects from mercury poisoning alongits shores contaminating the fish. The level of contamination form Fukushima AND Daiachi is unthinkable.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:18 AM

Minamata disease--so called because the effects of mercury poisoning were first recognized there--were in Japan in Minamata Bay. The effects were seen some (I don't remember how many) years later in Dryden, Ontario, when Native people were diagnosed as having the same symptoms. Absolutely terrible effects that can make me cry to this day. Alfred Troyer wrote the book on it. These are two very different issues, Don. Let us not confuse them.

Dryden was a town I was only too happy to leave behind. It stunk, and the pulp company that was there did nothing, with help from bastards in the Ontario government. The crippling effects should make any thinking person ashamed, but it didn't and still hasn't. There were only about thirty people or so involved. They were people who ate fish from the narrows, and because there IS an accumulation of mercury in the folks at the 'top' of the food chain, that being humans, we paid the price for their arrogance. I think the fuckers should be shot.

I am not a believer in capital punishment, but sometimes there are exceptions. They are some of those exceptions, my peace/love friends notwithstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:27 AM

Has anyone asked the obvious question as to what the qualifications of TEPCO officials are that would allow them to run nuclear facilities (badly)? I was stunned to find out either #1 or #2 was a procurement specialist, with some background in a cable company. That gives me confidence. Are there engineers higher up? Is it all run by _____? Not that non-engineers are automatically _____, but surely there have to be people higher up with some knowledge? They don't seem to have emerged but they must be somewhere? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:34 AM

Are there engineers higher up? Is it all run by _____?

The zaibatsu maybe? Japan is NOT a democracy as we know it, Mary. I know I am on your so-called black list, but give it a thought anyway, will ya?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:35 AM

I googled

http://www.myimpact.ch/Our%20Work/Our%20work_book%20MyImpact/Interviewees/Asia/Japan/Our%20work_book%20MyImpact_Interviewee_TEPCO_main.htm

Three administrators featured..backgrounds in law, economics and economics. Now I am even more confident.

Say they can't use wind energy because of "restriction of useable land and the generally steep seafloor" ...oh good news gentlemen..there will be probably some useable land available very soon. Not useable for too much else but useable for wind. Likewise sea. Oh, too steep. Put it on floats then. Then they talk about how it is too mountainous. I bet there is some wind up in those mountains.

I also bet they are going to discover an awful lot of wind in the weeks and months to come. mg