BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:14 PM

Thanks Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:25 PM

It really takes a team to pull all the threads together. Thanks for the work.

I generally find what the Union of Concerned Scientists have to say much more informed and straightforward than anything provided by the media, as they should be. At times they appear puzzled by what is happening as well, trying to sift the tea leaves or read between the lines of the various press statements from Japan and our own NRC. And they are challenged, as they admit, attempting to envision what might happen next. So I think they're a good reality check on the evolving disaster.

I did request that Joe Offer change the thread title. Disaster, I believe, is well beyond "looming."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:34 PM

Well, Charley, according to the top American on site advising the Japanese, it still is looming... not nearly as bad as Chernobyl YET (viedo on NHK). But, it sure looks like it has the potential to be far worse.

You could start a new thread and link the two if you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:50 PM

Japan Times, staff writers Nagata and Takahara
"Radioactive water keeps workers out"
"Turbine room floods linked to sea"
"Reactor turbine basements flooded with highly radioactive materials kept a desperate effort to stabilize the Fukushima No. 1 power plant at bay Monday, as fresh data showed that nearby seawater was being contaminated further by the lesking facility."
Effforts by TEPCO to restore the cooling systems for reactors 1 through 4, as well as their spent-fuel storage pools, continue to be halted by the radioactive water which is now at lethal levels.

Trenches below the turbine buildings have radiation as strong as 1,000 millisieverts/hour- the same as in the turbine buildings.
Since the trenches exits are only about 55 to 70 meters from the sea, TEPCO officials are worried that the highly poluted water could overflow from the trenches and out to the sea.

A board member of Citizens' Nuclear Information Center said it may tale even a month to pump out the toxic water, restore damaged cooling facilities and bring the reactors under control to end the crisis.
Eventually the plant may need to be encased in concrete, like Chernobyl was, he said.

Prof, Furukawa, Nagoya Univ., emeritus on nuclear energy, said workers can probably work only up to ten minutes at a time.
"Although water in the no. 1 turbine has been pumped into a container tank, TEPCO has not yet come up with ways to remove the flooding at the other three turbine buildings. "
"Having been unable to find effective ways to move forward, TEPCO seems to be visibly confused by the situation and has botched some of its announcements of crucial monitoring data."

Extracted from the article,
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110329al.html

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:57 PM

Could they repump the water? Is it cool enough? Too contaminated? Can they not think in terms of containment by cementing outer buildings around the blown up buildings?

Again, why can they not cement the rods? Because they would keep on burning and the cement or sand would drive them into the ground?

Is there any way to raise them? Oops crane broke. Slide cement under them? Make individual containers for them?

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:59 PM

source nextbigfuture.com

deaths per terawatt hour

Coal 161
Nuclear .04



----------------------

However what about 2, 4, 6, 12 thousands years from now when the steel and concrete exposes all the used nuclear fuel?

With nuclear power all the poisonous death is shoved into the future where none of us live.

What looks like a good deal even to some enviormentalists, is in fact the greatest treason ever committed to the future planet Earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:01 PM

Talk about yer gold plated CF.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:09 PM

I again believe the title looming
should have been chnaged when reactor #3 containing plutonium exploded thousands of feet into the air in what was clearly not just a hydrogen explosion, but a super pressurized containment vessel breach.

Yes of curse there is a large plutonium release.


The list of increasingly rare things

Nissan ZX 2012
Kobi beef
Japanese vegetables
Dolphin slaughters
Whale hunting
safe Toyotas
Japanese Lithium batteries
Japanese apple components for i pad


Speculators have already placed their bets on some of those commodities.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:45 PM

salmon that comes to US swimming from Korea?

Salmon in vicinity anyway?

Other fish?

Shellfish?

You can scrape up contaminated soil and do something with it but you can't do that with water. Well, look at the bright side. Perhaps it will bond with the plastic bits in the ocean and be transformed into fairy dust to be combed through the hair of mermaids.

But less rare day by day will be lies because there will be more eyes on this collection of fools and criminals and more independent monitoring. And the truth will hurt but in the long run, perhaps very long, good comes out of almost every bad thing. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:48 PM

A gold plated cluster fuck 999? Yeah, the silver cloud lining on this one is too silvery, too shiney and too deadly.

As I said above, I was a fan of CANDU and I would have supported LePreau 2 (New Brunswick, Canada) with a CANDU and definitely not the French reactor being considered. Not now. I read up on the spent fuel storage and disposal for the CANDU. The CANDU reactor appears much safer but the spent fuel storage certainly does not. Plus, at the present technology, given the obvious fact that Mother Nature is a bitch, the only safe course is "no". Coal sucks big time but it doesn't fuck over the entire planet in the blink of an eye.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 08:48 PM

From a photo of the reactors, do you see that little enclosed harbor in front of the plant? That is where the most deadly radioactive water with PU and U in it is leaking its contents into the sea.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 10:02 PM

Mr Shumitsu, the man in charge of the FUkushima nuclear plant owned by TEPCO has suffered a breakdown. He has been in total seclusion in his office and has not been seen in public for over a week. The last thang he said in response to a question posed workers under his command "I'll get back to you on that"

he never did.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:08 AM

Donuel-

"when reactor #3 containing plutonium exploded thousands of feet into the air in what was clearly not just a hydrogen explosion, but a super pressurized containment vessel breach."

You may well be correct on this. Reviewing the video, the explosion does appear more powerful, more components being hurled high into the air. I wonder how the Union of Concerned Scientists would assess that video.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 09:02 AM

I've just reviewed the transcript posted by the Union of Concerned Scientists for Monday's teleconference. It's fascinating and lengthy as one might expect.

First, the better news. They evidently believe that conventional but improvised cooling has been now restored to all the reactors on site and all their cooling pools. The reactors are now being cooled with fresh water but most of the spent fuel pools are still being cooled with sea water. But temperatures are stabilizing.

Unfortunately, whatever storage space they have for radioactively contaminated water is overwhelmed so that it is spreading throughout the turbine halls, the tunnels underneath, through various conduits, out into the bay or onto the grounds.

They're not sure where the non-volatile plutonium came from; it could have come from either the spent fuel pools or the reactor vessels when liquid was vented or escaped through a breach. They didn't mention the explosion of Unit 3 as a possible source.

Here are two answers to reporters' questions which sum up the state of the disaster at this point:

"REPORTER: My question would be, given some of the misinformation we had this weekend and the struggle that you're having with the data that you get, are you getting more or less sure about what really is going on there?

MR. LOCHBAUM: This is Dave Lochbaum.

I think we're pretty sure there's a disaster going on. It's the nature of the disaster, how the materials are getting into the various buildings that's not so clear, whether it's damage from the spent fuel pool or damage from the reactor core. But in terms of what needs to be done, that's somewhat irrelevant.

There's a lot of radioactivity outside of containment barriers that's posing a threat to both workers and the public that needs to be addressed as the top priority. There was progress made, as I mentioned earlier, on getting more normal injection of fresh water into the reactor cores, but that's more of a detail phase. There's been clear signs of damage done to date that aren't going to go away any time soon, that will continue to pose a hazard to both workers and the public, and a lot needs to be done to regain control over that material and limit, to the extent possible, how much of it gets out from the site.

REPORTER: I guess as a question, it's sort of hard for us out here to understand if things are getting better or worse, you know, if the list of things that needs to be done -- that's a good point that we sort of end up losing in the weeds, but if that list of what needs to be done is getting longer or shorter or if it's to be expected given the nature of this disaster.

MR. LOCHBAUM: Yeah. I think -- this is Dave Lochbaum again.

I think the good news is, you know, absent any further casualties, they've pretty much limited how much fuel damage has occurred to what has already happened. They have regained control of water injection on all six spent fuel pools or seven spent fuel pools and are putting water into the reactor cores on Units 1, 2, and 3. So, whatever damage has been done seems to have been done. Things could get worse. They could have some more equipment failures that lead to more damage of the fuel, but it seems like the fuel damage to date has already been done.

The bad news is that there's a lot of fuel damage that has occurred that's caused the release of a lot of radioactivity into some damaged structures, and that radioactivity has gotten to places that it shouldn't be, like the turbine buildings. So, therefore, even though the amount of fuel damage may have been retarded and there won't be any more in the future, quite a lot has happened to date, and that poses a challenge to make sure that as little as possible of that large amount of radioactivity that's been released, at least into the building, gets released into the environment. That's going to be a challenge.

So, I think the phase of the accident has moved from core damage, release of material, into management of the material that's been released or discharged from the damaged fuel."

But please review the entire transcript so you can be as impressed and depressed as I.

Oh, I got a PM from Joe Offer. He still doesn't think it's appropriate to change the thread title. I respectfully disagree.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:08 AM

This situation brings to mind a joke I heard years ago from Pat Sky.


Fellow was talking with his grandson.

"When I was growing up, we had no money. My brother and I never went to church or school on the same days because we had only one pair of pants and we had to share. It was the same for shoes, and we never had socks. We ate once a day, but not all the time. We slept on the floor because our furniture was repossessed. Baths were cold because we had no way to heat the water or the apartment. Things were tough. And THEN came the Great Depression!"

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:31 AM

SUPER GOOD UNBELIEVABLE NEWS

The manager of Fukushima reactors 1-6 has sought the counsel of the world's foremost authority on cleaning up gigantic disastrous messes. The forecast of 12 to 24 years required to clean up the 4 reactors that have melted down, the surrounding country side as far as Tokyo and 2 million sq. miles of ocean water, IS NOW OBSOLETE!

With the methods devised by AIEAC scientist T Geisel PHD emeritus the entire clean up may only take a matter of hours, once the entire amount of Nuclear fuel consisting of MOX, new fuel U 258 and the collection of all spent fuel assemblies are fully exposed and evenly distributed.
This will consist of 25 separate steps which will in the short run make the disaster appear to grow worse with each step introduced.
However the final 26th step of exposing all contamination, to Z particles it will be as though the disaster never happened.

The process is a Vitrification of Oxide Moderators or VOOM. The many step process of exposing the radioactive fuel to various progressive particles essentially oxidizes the fuel thereby reducing its half life at each step until finally a Z particle renders the fuel as safe as lead. Japan can then truck off and bury the lead and everything will be as good as new.

While this process has been theorized for nearly 55 years, this will be the first time it is done on a grand scale. To read a book about this amazing process you can find it on Amazon, com under the cat in the hat comes back.
Technically the entire time to achieve a safe clean environment will be a matter of minutes at the final stage. The preparation for finality will take several weeks or months depending upon unforeseen circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 11:31 AM

post #666 was comedic relief.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 11:46 AM

Donuel-

Your post above has liquidated another keyboard.

I've been weighing the pros and cons of posting panel by panel the comic book we published way back in 1986-87 during our third unsuccessful attempt to shut down the Maine Yankee nuclear power plant. I may do so yet as a photo album on my Facebook page. It's not quite as funny as we thought it was at the time. Old humor can sometimes bite the hand that fed it!

Back to the problem at hand...

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:17 PM

Here is a glossary for nuclear jargon

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf51.html#V

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM

Nuclear energy in the U.S. is at the hands of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission which is owned outright by the nuclear industry who puts profits above safety and that includes Japan's company as well.

Nuclear energy is fission-based. There has been talk about a fusion-based use which reputedly recycles waste into energy.

I don't think there is any political will in the world today that is on the part of the nuclear industry to protect the environment, the people, and put profits second.

In the meantime, Obama is tilting at windmills on this issue.

The hazardous materials build up, affect the environment and people's health,
are rationalized by corporations who stand to profit from their position, and
pay off the pseudo-scientific babblers to support their P.R. claims.

The nukes are coming. Be afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:08 PM

I don't want them to feel bad enough to have nervous breakdowns or take final desperate measures to their own lives etc...I want them to feel the pain of responsibility enough that they devote the rest of their lives to clean energy or public service. I think those who were found to have doctored books, compromised on engineering etc. should have pensions reduced to that of whatever a teacher or nurse would get, probably not legally possible, and of course face whatever laws they have there. I think they, and we, need to start from ground zero in many aspects of engineering and see what they are engineering for and against. Remember, someone, I don't know who, has convinced generaitons of people that air vents are a perfectly good substitute for windows, not taking into account human error, like blocking them, failing to clean or maintain them etc. Small example, but human laziness, failure to follow instructions, lack of information or education etc. have got to be engineered into every devise or plan. I was never ocnvinced this was the case and now I am sure. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 02:19 PM

Clean energy, for the next 50 years, will be limited in its usefulness.
Solar and wind have been proposed. What is involved? The following are my assessment of current solar possibilities, with aid from "How Stuff Works."
SOLAR-
Solar energy technology could be sufficient to service homes in much of the world. This may be done individually, or collectively by a commercial or cooperative company.
Individual- how many people can afford to make the installation necessary?
The average house requires c. 14000 watt hours/day. This requires 285 square feet of solar panels.
Because of cloudy days, a battery bank, inverter, etc. are needed in the installation.
Solar panels- $16,000
Battery bank, etc. Another $16,000.
Could be required for new homes, but for most people in older homes, retrofitting
appliances, roof, adding labor costs, control room, etc. would require a mortgage addition. Cost prohibitive for most.
In the U. S. and Canada, state and provincial rights prevent nationwide regulation.

Retrofitting apartment towers and comdominia is doubtfully economic.

The alternative, large commercial solar panel fields with transmission lines to towns have many drawbacks- from withdrawing large parcels of land from agricultural, livestock, recreational, wildlife and other uses. Costs of auxilliary equipment high.

For northern sites- settlements in northern Europe, Asia and North America- solar power must be supplemented as it is not feasible for exclusive use.

Local zoning and preferences. No overall plan is possible. The federal government cannot override state laws, and the people and their communities vote their preferences.

Solar power for industrial purposes- Impossible!

To power industry, only fossil fuels and nuclear technology available with present technology. How long to develop otrher technology? At least 50 years if large budget allowances made.

Similar problems exist for wind power proposals.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM

My solar cost estimates did not provide for air-conditioning, if wanted- add $16,000 to panel and installation costs.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 02:52 PM

Well, the other thing we fail to take into account is human ingenuity and enterprise. People are very flexible and adaptable, and can, if necessary, drive less, wear more clothing, have higher per person houses, go back to how their ancestors lived somewhat.

There are economic solutions to some of the solar problems mentioned..such as amoritization by power companies, who would install and own the panels or windmills.

How does Denmark do it? How do others do it?

Does not have to be fossil fuels..certainly could be algae fuels or waste or pig manure etc..would have to look at industry by industry basis..how much fuels the physical plant and how much the actual machinery. There probably are ways to separate electricity sources.

People who are either forced to by economics or are induced to by economics, or social pressure, or whatever, can individually and collectively find ways to reduce, share, use utilities when cheapest, program machinery to do same, and invent new ways of doing stuff.

Another thing that has to happen is to release inventions and patents that already exist. I do not believe for a moment that big oil or big nuclear or whatever does not have lots of things in their back pocket and are able to turn things pretty rapidly around when they realize they must. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 02:55 PM

Another thing..they said 2 workers were "splashed" with radioactive water wearing waterproof, supposedly, garments, but were soaked to their underwear. It did not say submerged in radioactive water, or soaked..just splashed. How does waterproof garment not keep you waterproof? Who is clothing these heroic workers? And giving them plastic bags to put over street shoes to stand in radioactive water while doing electrical work? Surely not Hannah Montana..oh she is not real..but if she were she would know better. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:01 PM

There are some lyrics in this song that are poetically appropos. My apologies if you don't care for this type of tune.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iCTt2ZfcAM

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:26 PM

Meanwhile back in Japan:

From the Los Angeles Times (3/29/2011):

"Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan for the first time criticized the TEPCO, which owns the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, for inadequate preparations for a tsunami at the facility. The sea wall at the plant was designed to withstand an 18-foot wave, while the actual tsunami that struck after the magnitude 9 Tohoku earthquake was estimated to be more than 40 feet high.

"It's undeniable their assumptions about tsunamis were greatly mistaken," Kan said Tuesday of Tokyo Electric Power Co. in an address to the Japanese parliament. "The fact that their standards were too low invited the current situation."

Kan also criticized the company for placing the backup diesel generators, which were to provide power to the emergency cooling system, in the basements of reactor buildings, where they were swamped by seawater and disabled.

(SNIP!)

At the plant, meanwhile, workers were piling sandbags at the ends of tunnels near the coast as water levels inside the tunnels rose and threatened to spill out into the ocean. The water is highly radioactive and international law forbids its release into the sea, although the radiation would most likely be dispersed to the point where it was inconsequential.

Experts fear it could damage ocean life in the immediate vicinity of the plant, however.

Engineers are attempting to pump water out of the tunnels to restore access to the areas where workers have been attempting to restore power to the stricken facility, but are running out of places to store the radioactive water until its radiation levels can decay."

We used to propose (internal gossip) that Maine get rid of its nuclear waste by fusing it into ceramic seagulls and selling it to tourists who would take it with them when they left the State. But we all agreed that would be WRONG!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:49 PM

Glow in the dark shithawks? Yeah, sounds like a bad idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 04:17 PM

They are not even being fed properly or given more than one blanket. Come on. This is more than I would have thought possible.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110329004944.htm

IT is a country full of engineers and robots. If a land robot can't get close enough with food then get a floating one if place is soaked with water. Or catapult stuff. Or get another crane and dangle it outside a window. Or, trucks are getting through. How about suiting up TEPCO executives as well as whoever let the inspections pass falsely and ignored obvious talk of tsunami strength, and letting them drive the stuff into the compound. Safe enough for the workers, safe enough for the executives. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 04:54 PM

mg-

It's truly a miserable situation and I like your modest proposal.

Speaking of gallows humor, I've just posted a 1987 anti-nuclear power propaganda comic that a good friend published during our campaign to close the Maine Yankee nuclear power plant; here's a public link to my Facebook album: Click here!

This is strong propaganda and you should read it only if you have a strong stomach.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 04:56 PM

.... and a facebook membership.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM

It's public, you don't need a Facebook membership. I haven't got one and I just read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 05:22 PM

The recriminations are flying, most of them after-the-fact.

Japan societies of civil engineers, mechanical engineers, nuclear engineers, etc. who generally approved at time of construction.
Government in power at time of construction.
Government in power now.
People of Fukushima Prefecture who wanted jobs that the development would bring.
Management of TEPCO at time of construction, and now.
NOT GENERALLY REPORTED-
General Electric and Hitachi- GE designed the plants; they were built 80% Hitachi, 20% GE.
NOTE- Hitachi built the plant.
Failure to consult historical record- Originally Hitachi; later TEPCO could have made improvements. TEPCO as operator could have demanded changes be made by Hitachi.
Stockholders of TEPCO, who demanded good dividends- many thousands of individuals, investment houses including banks worldwide, insurance companies, pension funds.
-------------------

General Electric Power and Water CEO Steve Bolze defended the company's boiling water reactors, including those at the Fukushima Daiichi complex.
GE and Bolze have "assembled 1000 specialists, including retirees, at an emergency center in Wilmington, North Carolina, where GE-Hitachi is based."
The company is sending 10 truck-mounted gas turbines to help restore power at Daiichi reactors.
GE-Hitachi are shielded from liability by Japan's channeling laws, according to Omer Brown, a lawyer who is a member of the International Atomic Energy Agency's Nuclear Liability Expert Group. Japan assigns nuclear accident liability solely to the operators.

This mostly from Bloomberg, "GE $1 Billion Nuclear Unit at Risk as Nations Mull Atomic Future," March 16, 2011.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 06:18 PM

Well, I think we're all well and truly b*ggered to be honest, sooooooo...anyone for Credit Card Shopping?

You may never have to pay it back, look on the bright side...



>>>"GE $1 Billion Nuclear Unit at Risk as Nations Mull Atomic Future," March 16, 2011.<<<<

There is no *future* in Atomic. That's always been the problem.

There's future in candles though...and horses..and manpower...and wind power and sun power and 'let's stop being so goddamned greedy' power...

Simplicity is the New Black....

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:35 PM

Thanks Jack... I didn't even bother to click when I saw "facebook". Figured I couldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:07 PM

Thanks, Jack, for pointing out that the "public link" permits anyone to access Facebook.

However, the resolution of the images as filtered by Faebook is not as sharp as what I see from the JPG images on my monitor and I probably should rescan the individual panels. Anyone else able to read what's in the balloons?

I did see an interview with David Lochbaum (from the Union of Concerned Scientists) this evening and he was asked his assessment of the similar nuclear plants in the States. His initial reply was they were every bit as safe as the ones in Japan, and upon further questioning flatly said they were equally vulnerable to meltdown if their back-up systems were compromised by a similar event or even parallel event. And, yes, the spent fuel pools never should have been approved as adequately secure.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:45 PM

Anyone else able to read what's in the balloons?

Just. It wasn't easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 09:09 PM

Stringsing, WHile thwe NRC is not owned by private companies you are correct in the spirit of correctly stating that there is collusion with the help of many republican run COngress'.

mg, whatever punishment that would fit the crime for running nuclear power plants with a record of negligence,
would be unusual and cruel.

gnu, whats new

Q, the new solar panels that are flexible film can be used as siding and roofing and are far cheaper than the heavy panels.
This may be an economic plus

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 09:13 PM

JAPAN admits they have lost the battle to prevent a meltdown through the reactor vessel into the concrete basement of reactor #2,

Plutonium levels in soil and watercontinue to rise.

Only #3 was supposed to have PU in them but that either is a lie or they just don;t know how far #3 has melted down already.

When all 4 reactors melt down we may as well add the last two because the radiation will prevent human intervention.


WHEN THAT OCCURS the USA will indeed have ongoing continual radiation concerns on the west coast and ALaska including the fisheries.



THE BIG LIE THIS WEEK

"this is not anywhere near as serious as Chernobyl."


(note they have stopped comparing this to TMI)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 02:24 AM

The tense of the verb in the title, well, it's wrong. imo. It has loom--ed.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM

"Nuclear plant disaster looming" strikes me as woefully inadequate to describe what has been happening in and around the Fukushima-1 nuclear plant site for the past week or so. I've asked that the title be changed but was told that since this disaster was still evolving there was no need for a change. Perhaps, the title will be changed ten thousand years from now when radiation levels have returned again to background. There are more important things to discuss than thread titles, as reality overwhelms the theory of safe nuclear power.

Time to check the updates.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM

How to contain/store the contaminated water from the reactors has not been solved. A plan to store it in tankers is a no go.
The government says the Fukushima complex will be permanently closed once the reactors are stabilized. A Tepco spokesman suggested keeping reactors 5 and 6, but the cabinet member (Edano) in charge of energy says no.

Many (all?) of the boiling water reactors in the U. S. are outdated, much like those in the Tohoku area. They should be retired/replaced.

Nearshore water badly contaminated. In the Gulf Coast, the nearshore waters are breeding areas for Gulf of Mexico fish. Don't know about the breeding capacity of waters near the Sendai area.

Expect fossil fuel use for industrial energy to increase over the next few years.
In the U. S., the EIA estimates home use at 22%, commercial at 19%, industrial at 30% and transportation at 19%.
In most states and provinces, home use is closer to 10%.

Some people would have us go back to "that little grass shack in Kealikekua," but few would agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 01:55 PM

I thought I heard they are sourcing tanks. You would think that getting tanks should be a world priority... surely the world could get enough (I don't know the volume) tanks there fairly quickly? As for the volume of storage required, every little bit counts.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 02:12 PM

Tanks- many needed, small capacity. Where to store them where they wouldn't corrode??
This was a suggestion by Tepco, but they abandoned it.
Cement-lined pits another suggestion.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM

Don't know about the breeding capacity of waters near the Sendai area.

The Kuru Siwo current - part of the Northern Pacific circulation. If it gets heavily contaminated, that finishes the North American Pacific fishery. Look at an ocean current map.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 02:33 PM

Yes, tanks would corrode so it would be temporary but it would also be immediate. Concrete lined pits are also temporary and subject to evaporation which spreads contaminants, and to rain which can overflow the pits. As all concrete cracks, pits are subject to leakage. Synthetic liners can be tricky to install... not as time consuming as clay liners, of course. Perhaps a combination of the two could be considered.

In any case, if they nixed tanks, it ain't the way to go I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 03:11 PM

This improvised plan for dealing with huge volumes of radioactive sea-water is a far cry from whatever disaster response plans TOPCO filed with the appropriate agency of the Japanese Government. I expected as much as soon as they began desperately pouring salt-water onto the damaged reactor buildings.

Ideally, they would process the contaminated sea-water by boiling it down, and then storing the more concentrated radioactive sludge in armored dry casks. But you need a processing plant for that, with containment protection so that the water vapor doesn't carry radioactive volatiles out into the environment. They'll have to settle for much more temporary and imperfect measures until they can design and construct such a facility on site.

There was a unsettling report on CNN at noon that steam was seen escaping again from the Fukushima-2 nuclear complex 6 miles to the north. Sorry, we just won't stand for any more bad news.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 03:57 PM

NHK... there is concern that piping connections to the cores may be cracking.

Greenpeace has measured radiation levels in a number of areas, has called for evacuations outside the 30km radius, especially for pregnat women and for babies, and has measured radiation levels in Tokyo that contradict government readings and the government wants details. I hope they get rid of the Greenpeacers ASAP... all they can do is exacerbate the problems for their own gain... idiots. Panic is not needed at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 05:17 PM

From the last update (and there's more unsettling stuff in it... like the number of incidents at warious US plants in the past which I had no knowledge of!!!)...

"The NRC looked at that. Initially, they didn't look at it very well, because unfortunately, every other page was missing from the report we sent them, because I took it to Kinko's, and they didn't duplex it. So, the NRC, three months later, had determined that our concerns had no consequences, even though page 2, page 4, page 6 and so on was missing. So, that kind of gave us a clue as to how detailed they looked over those concerns.

They basically said the chances of that happening were so small that nobody really needed to do anything about it. We think they need to get a new Ouija board, because the events in Japan showed them how wrong that assessment was."

Good lord! The NRC must be rife with idiots! How could anyone respond to a report they could NOT even have read? God help us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 06:05 PM

Fukushima II, with 4 reactors, is 7 miles south of Fukushima I (Daiichi complex), it is referred to as the Daini complex in my posts and by NHKJapan.
Reactors 1 and 3 built by Toshiba, 2 and 4 by Hitachi.
Smoke being emitted from one of the buildings was from equipment which supplies power to a motor pump which collects outdoor water, and stopped after workers turned off the motor, according to NHK.

The Japanese government has set up 4 working groups led by Government members Fukuyama and Hosono.
The groups include members of Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, U. S. military forces stationed in Japan, and the U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
The groups are discussing measures to prevent radiation from leaking outside the Daiichi plant, and also are studying the possible use of remote-controlled unmanned equipment to prevent radiation exposure among plant workers, and use of a U. S. unmanned robot for measuring radiation levels.
They have arranged for the transport of fresh water to the complex by U. S. vessels.
NHK, March 30.