BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:20 AM

Thanks, Jack. One last question if I may. How high above sea level are the reactors?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:39 AM

I searched (quickly) the coastline on GE but didn't locate the plant... maybe someone who knows where it is or a city/town nearby could find it and approximate an elevation.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: olddude
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:43 AM

Can diesel electric generators be brought in and connected to the grid to supply powers. No one has mentioned that. I know their diesel generators were clobbered by the sea but every armed forces has many of these portable generators that put out lots of power. I have been waiting to hear on TV but no one talks about that

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:47 AM

Reason I'm asking is the following.

If (engines) fire trucks were able to stay up with the need, well, ya don't necessarily need the truck other than for the pump to get the wet stuff on the red stuff.

If the friction loss is surmountable, maybe with the use of portable pumps they can achieve the same end. There are friction loss formulas that work quite well with fire hose, and of course other hoses. If people have tunnel vision and are seeing the only solution as using a big mother of a pump instead of lots of little ones, then maybe it's an option worth assessing.

Smaller pumps in tandem would do the same job. Portable pumps are just that: they can be carted by two adults. In fact, all the required apparatus is man/woman portable. Honda makes 'em. Also, I'd suggest input from rural firefighters because water is often a problem, so they learn to suck water out of sloughs, rivers, lakes, etc. Those guys know about this kinda stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:57 AM

Rationale:

Helicopters can fly there and there has got to be some place very close by to land. Bring in gas fired pumps and the fuel/lubricants to maintain them. This type of pumping is a bugger, because the slightest loss of prime can cause problems. However, once prime is established, those little suckers are like the energizer bunny!

The math on it is easily figurable-out-able by the fire service. Give 'em a calculator and three minutes--although tise situation may require ten minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:16 PM

The plant is only just above sea level, but the spent fuel tanks (the part that most needs water at the moment) are high in each building, maybe 100 feet up.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM

I think it's do-able. But I'm relying on memory and I'm the guy who lost the whole year of 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:25 PM

Sorry. Thank you, Jack.

So how can we pass the idea to someone?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:31 PM

Also, if the salt will be bad for the normal pumps, there are submersible pumps that work in sea water. And what's the chances of having a submarine or two provide electricity. They would be submerged, thus easing up on the radiation threat.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: pdq
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM

As lame as it sounds, they could have firefighting tug boats spraying the buildings from just off the shore.

We don't expect this type of incompetence from Germany, England, the US or Japan, but there it is for all to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:48 PM

Helluvan idea, pdq. Who can we tell this stuff to?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:08 PM

"The US has a huge warship nearby that must have a larger generating capacity than that NZ destroyer, but they're too scared to go inshore" Jack Campin

And you know that - how?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:12 PM

Send this thread to the Japanese Embassy, Bruce...No kidding..email them and let them see it.

You guys have great brains, great ideas....Some of you know one helluva lot about these sorts of situations, you need to tell someone...

Consulate General of Japan - Montreal

600, rue de la Gauchetière O
Montreal, QC H3B 4L8, Canada
[phone]


Failing that, your Firefighters, Bruce....can they contact firefighters in Tokyo in some way?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:13 PM

Ebbie... they were in fairly close but backed off to 25 miles. That doesn't mean they are scared, just smart.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:17 PM

How would you solve Fukushima?

Live blog in Guardian newspaper taking suggestions fro mreaders.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:18 PM

Fire Department Network News - contact details on page..



At the bottom of this page is an email link to these guys...

The Tokyo Fire Department

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:22 PM

I pass on ideas like these to the Union of Concerned Scientists. They have a comment section if you're able to navigate their website and fill out their form before posting: click here for link

I generally feel that they are level-headed and they have years of experience evaluating situations at nuclear plants.

Evidently the levels of radiation now are too high for the on-site workers to achieve anything before dying. That sounds like a blunt and callous statement but that's what the situation has evolved to.

I'm not sure what the workers did at the similarly affected Fukushima 2 nuclear complex seven miles to the North but all reports indicate that they've achieved "cold shut-down." They were also knocked off-line by the earthquake and most of their generators were disabled by the tsunami. There are four reactors at that complex. There were no hydrogen explosions but for a while the core temperatures were elevating in 3 of the 4 units.

There was no official reassuring news from the Fukushima 1 nuclear complex this noon. The helicopter drops of tons of water, as some had predicted, appear to have been ineffectual.

The best hope remains restoring power with a new electrical cable, but I've found no updates there.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:24 PM

I was wondering about fire tugs..again I don't know how far away the sea is..could be a couple of miles? I guess I could googleearth.

That is why I keep saying we need photos and videos like on youtube that can be slowed down, stopped, blown up etc. Watching on CNN is not enough. There are people all over the world with expertise. I thought days ago about helicopters dumping water but thought what do I know...

Some things I don't get.. they say there is no water but there is heavy snowfall...and lots of debris to burn..which might be soaked of course...but things are not totally computing here. And I know people are going to say this is not the time to criticize..no..the time was before this happened and before something happens equally bad in US. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:28 PM

Here's one update which indicates that water canons have been used in an attempt to refill the spent fuel pool in the damaged Unit 4 at the Fukushima 1 nuclear complex:

Problems continue to abound at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant. Helicopters have been flown in, using tons of water in an attempt to cool and control the reactors which are overheating. Water cannons have pumped out 30 tons of water to cool a sizable amount of spent-fuel near the No. 3 reactor, which has been one of the notable sources for radioactive fallout in the area. At this point, housing units for reactors Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4 have exploded or been exposed in some way, with their radioactive cores beginning to melt down, and Nos. 5 and 6 heating up. Emergency workers in the plant are working abbreviated shifts to reduce exposure to radiation, in addition to already wearing cautionary protective gear. Yukiya Amano, chief of the United Nation's International Atomic Energy Agency, is frustrated due to the death(SIC!!!!) of information, and arrived in Japan on Thursday to run an evaluation of the plant.

I believe they meant to say "a dearth of information."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:30 PM

999... found the sucker! Elevation of roof tops is 96m.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM

Distance to water... very rough guesstimate at 300m to the edge of the buildings. But sommat ain't right... gotta check on...

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:44 PM

An interactive map in the New York Times this morning shows low level radiation in wind currents reaching west coast North America from Fukushima Friday-Saturday.

The Chevrolet Volt uses transmissions made in Japan. Delivery will stop due to factory slowdowns and/or stoppages. Just one of the effects on industries outside of Japan.

Some electrical power is being restored in the reactor area, but not yet usable in fighting the Fukushima problems.

Storage of spent rods- Each Fukushima reactor has between 60-83 tons of spent rods stored next to them. The size of the pools is very large, but I haven't found size specifications.
Vermont Yankee has 690 tons of spent rods on site. Article in The Nation, March 15, "Fukushima's Spent Fuel Rods Pose Grave Danger," Christian Parenti.

Some of the proposals for restoring water (above) do not take into account the large volumes needed, and the fact that a hot environment throws off water as steam almost as fast as it is added, unless volumes added are very large. Dispersal as steam almost as soon as water was dropped by helicopter was noted by observers. The supply must not only be large but delivered rapidly and continuously until the temperature drops.

Amounts of Caesium 137 being released by exposed fuel rods not yet reported.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:50 PM

Near as I can tell, the buildings are 74m above grade... well, when intact.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:57 PM

The trunamis that hit Japan ranged between 10 to 30 METERS high.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:57 PM

Tepco hopes to have high voltage power lines restored to reactor 2 on Friday. The pumps also must be repaired and connected to power for cooling water to be delivered. NHK World TV Ustream just reported.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM

Charly wrote a very nobel letter in response to an op ed.

below

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 02:01 PM

Q... yes, lots of water and continuously will help with the spent fuel. And, 999's proposal is certainly within reason as long as the pumps can handle the volume and pressure required. Small pumps could work if many were used to feed a reservoir for larger pumps. The configuation of the system would depend on waht is available. Certainly an idea worthy of putting a team on ASAP.

As for the reactors... such a plan seems unlikely to me off the top of my head. It might even be a bad idea if it can't be done on an "even" basis, ie, cool one side and cause a stress differential. But, I am not a makeanickel engineer.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 02:07 PM

"The trunamis that hit Japan ranged between 10 to 30 METERS high." Donuel

Really? 90 meters? I have found no estimates above 40 FEET.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 02:13 PM

Ebbie
My source is the Time Magazine editor.
He also said that he was at Phuket when the tsunami struck there.
That particular tsunami was only 1/3 as strong as the ones that hit Japan.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 02:13 PM

When water becomes steam, it expands to 1600 times its own volume.

Looks like they will have electricity back soon.


Gnu,

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 02:15 PM

The grade and length of the land leading up to a beach is respondsible for wide variations of wave heights generated by a common ocean floor uplifting event.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 02:21 PM

Dunping water on something 3 or 4 thosuands degree hpot will usually just instantly turn that water to steam

If one actually could somehow emerse the containment vessel or cooling ponds with water... the sudden shock to the hot hot metal and concrete containment structures would cause them to crack wide open.

Also you can;t put water into a containment vessel if it is full of 1000 lbs per square inces of pressure with a 500 lbs pressure hose.

You have to take away the pressure, Problem is that valves can get stuck closed when pressure is high.

so many problems

Do you really thing ANY pipes are intact after the 4 huge explosions that tore up the containment buildings?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_N-wNFSGyQ

yeah right, the pipes are just fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 02:29 PM

Hmmm... if the pipes are all blown to hell, why are they not leaking?

Valves can get stuck when the pressure is high... I did not know that. Can you explain it for me?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 03:22 PM

Depends on type of valve. Pressure seal valves and others also become stuck at high temperatures.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 03:52 PM

Prof. Michio Kaku (Physics of the Future) is recommending the Chernobyl solution- bury and cement in the reactors. He says it is too late and too little to try to correct the failures. (MSNBC)

Water spray by helicopter will be done again on Friday (Tokyo time)

Lineups for food and fuel in Tokyo. Demand greater than supply.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 04:14 PM

"Depends on type of valve."

Okay... which? Ball... butterfly...

I can understand heat but I was asking about the pressure as per the post above.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 04:19 PM

3Mile Island accidnt began with a stuck valve

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 04:26 PM

gnu, wut is a valve?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 04:37 PM

Okay... "pressure seal valves"... you mean a check valve? Doesn't seem likely you mean a check valve as they would only seal against unwanted revesre flow.

I realize we are all laymen here but I am am having a hard time following the logic at times. If youse are having a hard time following my logic, please cite me and edify me or at least question me. Sometimes, I think off the top of my head... I throw ideas out for the hell of it.

Perhaps it's useless and only serves for banter while we await what we all hope will be resolution of a very serious situation which may get to "criticality" (the word they have been using on NHK). The key point is... it is not critical yet. The sky has NOT fallen and is NOT falling... it's lookin like storm clouds movin in but the wind hasn't picked up enough to blow all hopes away.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 04:39 PM

"gnu, wut is a valve?"

Who's on second?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM

I want NAMES !!!

Who the hell said the sky is falling?
Who said this is the end of the world?
Who said I am scared senseless?
Who said I just wet myself? ;*(




Just who does not feel that these events are grim just as they are?
I do. I believe others do as well.

Some of what is written here are facts, some are feeling, some are hopes and some are fears. I would not care to limit or define expression but I do take umbrege with characterizations such as "you people who cry the sky is falling...etc

Me thinks you are too busy to have read each and every post in the thread and that you jump in with a pre determined attitude. Furthermore you seem to have an certain expectation of other people's motivation, understanding and attitude, as though having an engineering degree is certification that only you have the rational key to events past present and future. Smug in the knowledge others do not know what they are talking about, you might think there really could be nothing to learn or even extrapolate from such frightened laymen and lay abouts.

Or maybe you just like being an insulting ass hole now and then, like the rest of us when we get fed up by events, pervs and bullies in real life..

I contend within this thread there are accurate representations with the little data that is released. I believe it is valuable to know what are lies and what is true. While I am not angry I am fiesty about stereotyping.

In the nuclear industry there are 5 trillion dollars worth of reasons to lie to the population. Every preceding nuclear accident have also begun with silence, delay and lies.

I believe the empathy for the victims to be is valid reason enough to be concerned. I also believe I welcome any and all gnu input gnu may have in the spirit of discovery and help.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 05:18 PM

Furthermore I hate people who hate
And people who characterize other people are just like..just like..

hmmm


never mind

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 05:19 PM

That's pretty rich. Smug? Aloof as an engineer? Insulting asshole?

Fuck off. If you would talk sense instead of... oh nevermind. Have fun. Just try to take yer meds on time.

I shant engage in any more discussion... just keep up with the news. The ACTUAL news. The REAL situation as it EXISTS.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 05:33 PM

Who is on second
What
what is on second
Whos on third
no, I don't know's on third

I don't give a damn is left feild.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 05:35 PM

High pressure causes deformation. High temperature causes high pressure. High temperature causes deformation.
Dearth of detail makes it impossible to be sure of details of construction, or of stresses resulting from temperature and/or pressure.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 05:42 PM

I've noted how the concrete cooling pool is an integral part of the poured concrete which is part of and adjacent to the steel containment vessel. It looks likethe heat of both vessel and pool concentrates at particular points between them both.

Looking at that just reeks of BAD IDEA on top of the fact they are even in the same building.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:11 PM

have the owners of this fiasco even posted maps of their plants so other engineers can offer advice

And here..it looks like lots of openings to the sea..perhaps clutter underneath water but shallow boats could make it a bit of a ways to larger ones further out http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367208/Japan-tsunami-earthquake-Mayor-claims-people-abandoned.html

Are they trying to mobilize fishermen? Tourist boats? Surely they could get people who could walk if rubble was somewhat cleared out by boat. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:14 PM

Are you thinking fireboats? They can spray hundreds of feet.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:17 PM

Charely Noble posted links to their site. There are stylized designs but nothing like blueprints. His other link to nuclear watch has the best detailed floor plans and complete history of repairs that the company tried to cover up and were later fined.

Things like patching the crack steel reactor vessel with welded patches were done instead of replacement

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:21 PM

Looking at a coastal map, four nuclear complexes are not far apart.

Onagawa nuclear complex is located almost due west of the epicenter of the quake. An emergency was reported here on Sunday, but radioactivity levels are normal.

Fukushima Daiichi complex, with its six reactors, is SSW of Onagawa; it is the one seriously damaged and the subject of the emergency measures.

Seven miles south of Daiichi is the Daini complex, where cooling has failed at three reactors. Later report available?

Still farther south on the coast is the Tokai complex, where a cooling pump failure was reported Sunday, but a backup was working.

Little has been reported except for the Daiichi reactors- Seemingly damage was minor at the other three complexes, all along the same stretch of coastline near Sendai. I don't know the number of reactors at each complex.

The map with locations of the reactor complexes is from the New York Times, found by googling fukushima nuclear map japan.