BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:05 AM

This becomes as tireless as it gets Keith
Britain supplied "small arms ammunition" to Syria - it is documented on export records and it was identified as "sniper bullets" by you and our self acclaimed gun experts, you as 'merely sniper rifle bullets', and dickbrain as "sniper rifle bullets for practice - only £30,000 worth"   
simultaneous mistakes???? Don't think so.
Having been made aware of the damage done by 'merely sniper bullets' you have both gone through weeks of different explanations - it was sold - it wasnt sold - the order exists - the order doesn't exist - they were sent and used up - they were never sent.
how can you possibly claim an "honest mistake" when you have gone through this performance for weeks - you have openly lied and contradicted youself at least half a dozen times EACH TIME IN FULL VIEW AND ACCESSIBLE TO ANYBODY WHO CARES TO PULL OUT A QUOTE - THERE IS NOTHING "HONEST" ABOUT ANYTHING YOU HAVE SAID HERE
No evidence - an official list of export figures and an article in the pro-establishment Daily Mail will do very nicely thank you, apart from other reports of the existence of the shipment - if it doesn't exist or it wasn't fulfilled, it is up to you and Braindead to provide proof that (a) The Export figures are wrong and (B) All the newspaper reports are lying.
So far you have only contradicted your own attitude, that has flipped and turned for weeks, until settling on your and Gunners "honest mistake"
Stop lying - you make yourself the arsehole you really are.
In addition, you have agreed with the British Government's line that the Syrioan people cannot be trusted to coose a new leadership to replace Assad, so it is logical that the policy of allowing him to suppress the revolt is assisted, at least by standing by and doing nothing.
All of which makes your starting this thread a breathtaking exercise in cynical hypocracy, using the suffering of the Syrian people as a vehicle for your feigned sympathy.
Go and take a cold shower.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:13 AM

In addition, you have agreed with the British Government's line that the Syrioan people cannot be trusted to coose a new leadership to replace Assad,

That is not British Government's line.
I have posted Cameron's statement three times yet you have obviously not read it once.
It is a lie to say it is the British line, and a lie to say that I agree with it.

It is madness to cite Teribus and me as evidence for sniper rounds when we both refute it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:57 AM

All the "sniper bullets" nonsense began with this sentence on Feb 11.

"That would be for the sniper rifles Jim"

BUT BRITAIN HAS SUPPLIED NO SNIPER RIFLES TO SYRIA.
You knew that.
YOU listed all the sales and permits.
I had corrected the mistake within a couple of days, but a month later you are still trying to use it against Britain, because you have nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:01 AM

"It is madness to cite Teribus and me as evidence for sniper rounds when we both refute it."
This is now the sixth explanation from you of this documented and authenticated sale. You have altered your story, not as new facts are revealed, but as a convenience to your own particular needs in the argument - the latest (a couple of days ago) being that you were confusing it with Libya.
I have never known two (sorry - three, remembering our absent hirsute friend) people lie and distort in pursuit of a nasty political agenda.
You have never attempted to explain your lies, you've now ceased to deny them.
Why should we believe the latest one?
Fact - the British government sold 'missiles/projectiles that kill people to a terrorist regime that was noted for torturing, murdering and imprisoning its people.
Whatever they were - (I'm prepared to accept them as sniper bullets based on your arguments) the sale was fully in line with its stated policy of selling arms to despotic regimes "We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records".
You have yet to produce evidence that the license of sale was cancelled and the order not fulfilled...... can I breathe again now?
Ahhhhhh - that's better
The more you deny these facts the bigger liar you become (checked the length of your nose lately?)
"That is not British Government's line."
The Govenment's stated policy was made clear on Question Time by a senior government minister - for the reasons I have stated - a mistrust of what kind of leadership a democratic Syria would produce.
This has been borne out by Britain's failure to take any steps to intervene in the slaughter, not even to restrict in any way Assad's gofer in London (so far totally ignored by you)
Now - unless you have anything new (like evidence) to add.......
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:07 AM

The Govenment's stated policy was made clear on Question Time by a senior government minister

Question Time is an unscripted programme where the panellists give their PERSONAL answers to questions without prior notice.

On 5th March the British Prime Minister DID make British policy clear.

HERE IT IS JIM.
READ IT THIS TIME!

Mr Cameron continued to condemn the Syrian regime's on going violence saying,"the history of Homs is being written in the blood of its citizens."

He made three key pledges to help Syrian citizens, promising more humanitarian assistance, to hold the those responsible for "slaughter" to account and to bring about the political transition that would put a stop to the killing.

The Prime Minister said Britain was playing a leading role and had already provided an extra £2 million to aid agencies operating on the ground to help deliver emergency medical supplies and food rations for 20,000 people.

He added that Britain would this week, continue to secure a United Nations Security Council resolution demanding an end to the violence and immediate humanitarian access.

"The longer access is denied, the more the world will believe that the Syrian regime is detemined to cover up the extent of the horror brought to bear on Baba Amr," he said.


"We are working to make sure those responsible for crimes are being held to account. The European Council agreed that there must be 'a day of reckoning' for those who are responsible," he added.

Mr Cameron said and he would use "every tool we can, sanctions, aid, the pressure of diplomacy, reaching out to the oposition in Syria and beyond."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:48 AM

Senior ministers don't give 'personal opinions - especially not ones that conflict with Government policy
The government, should it wish, would have no problem in assisting Syria with military support - it had no qualms about its search for them thar WMD - and look at the mess it gort the world into.
And Assad's gofer..... why no action and why do you continue not to comment on Britain allowing a war criminal's faithful servant operate without hindrence?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:58 AM

Government does not announce policy on BBC Question Time!
The Prime Minister's statement is more recent anyway.

And Assad's gofer..... why no action and why do you continue not to comment on Britain allowing a war criminal's faithful servant operate without hindrence?

Unless he commits a crime, he can not be touched or his assets seized.
The Stasi do not operate here yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:05 PM

"Fact - the British government sold 'missiles/projectiles that kill people to a terrorist regime that was noted for torturing, murdering and imprisoning its people." - Jim Carroll

Not a fact at all Christmas, my little plumb pudding. I can certainly find no record of any sales or arms or ammunition by the British Government to the Assad Regime in Syria.

Now you state that they supplied weapons, now changed to 'missiles/projectiles', why that Christmas does that sound deadlier than ammunition/bullets? So where is your proof that the British Government sold these items?

As MtheGM put it - The ball is in court - You made the statement you substantiate it.

Here's a fact for you Christmas - You can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 03:55 PM

"Now you state that they supplied weapons, now changed to 'missiles/projectiles',"
Back to the Petrol-Napalm, Weedkiller-Agent Orange and Chemical Phosphorous - flares
Bullets turn guns into weapons - and essential part of killing people.
Not a change of heart, just trying to clear up the difficult bits for you.
Britain sold Syria "small arms ammunition - identified by both of you as sniper bullets - on numerous occasions -only sniper bullets, too few to worry about, too long ago, wrong size for Syrian weapons, you even told me not to believe all I read in the paper.
"Do you faithfully believe everything you read in the Daily Mail Christmas"
Who is one to believe if he an't take the word of a soldier - even a toy one lie yourself.
Never mind - soon be closing time and you might be able to impress your mates, if they're drunk enough.
"As MtheGM put it "
Hope Mile is comfortable there - it's getting quite crowded under his wing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:06 PM

Ah, so in short, you have no proof at all that the British Government sold anything to the Assad regime in Syria. It was just something you read in a newspaper, and having read the passage you misunderstood it and got it all wrong - something that I bet is not too unusual for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:08 AM

Jim, note the date of this post, and move on.
And remember, Britain does not make ammunition for Syria's Russian weapons.

15 Feb 12 - 05:42 AM

This thread is about real suffering.
That of the Syrian people, at the hands of a brutal regime supported by Russia and China.
All you can contribute is a rant against Britain, WHO HAS SUPPLIED NOTHING TO SYRIA!

Even the The Daily Mail, your only source of evidence (!) does not say Britain supplied anything.
"Approved" sale of small arms ammunition.
No reason not to "approve" that. No-one would buy it when China sells it cheaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:14 AM

"WHO HAS SUPPLIED NOTHING TO SYRIA!"
Except the documented small arms ammunition - as you say, sniper bullets
Nothing else new then?
Don't thing I want to waste any more time in the foetid company company of a bunch of rabid right wingers who don't even have the bottle to own up to and stand by their own statements
Have a nice day, and thanks for all those extra points for your CV
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 08:31 AM

Except the documented small arms ammunition
No documentation that it was supplied, and good reasons to doubt it was.
as you say, sniper bullets
No. As we said, not sniper bullets.

You have nothing, so off you go.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:03 PM

"Except the documented small arms ammunition"

Documented where?? A news paper?? The Daily Mail eh? Are you serious?

Daily Mail _ Russia Sends Troops To Help Assad

Oh and this one might help you as well - its on another subject dear to your heart but in the Daily Mail so it must be true:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117865/Sexual-abuse-15-year-old-girl-gang-men-filmed-mobile-phone.html?ICO=most_read_mo

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:41 PM

Jim Carroll
UK ARMS SALES TO THE MIDDLE EAST

In the papers today, another story about Syrian soldiers firing into protesting crowds. 17 people were shot dead last week, 112 over the weekend. It's entirely possible that they used British ammunition. It's not the first time our equipment has been used this year to suppress calls for the democracy that we enjoy ourselves.

Bahrain: Dozens of people have been killed and hundreds more arrested and beaten since protests began in February.
Recent UK arms sales to Bahrain include: Assault rifles, submachine guns, shotguns, CS hand grenades, tear gas.

Egypt: Over 400 people died and 6,000 were injured before Hosni Mubarak resigned.
UK arms sales to Egypt: Machine guns, bombs, missiles

Libya: Several thousand dead, the country is now in civil war.
UK arms sales to Libya: ammunition, tear gas, armoured cars.

Oman: Relatively peaceful, but several deaths reported.
UK arms sales to Oman: ammunition, pistols, submachine guns, tear gas, CS and stun grenades.

Saudi Arabia: No protests here, but Saudi troops are operating in Bahrain, where they have been assisting in the destruction of Shia mosques.
UK arms sales to Saudi Arabia: Vehicles, armoured personnel carriers, tear gas, sniper rifles

Syria: An estimated 350 people have died since the start of protests in March.
UK arms sales to Syria: small arms ammunition
Yemen: At least 45 killed in a massacre on March 18th.
UK arms sales to Yemen: ammunition
Britain controls 20% of the world's arms sales. This is nothing to be proud of. Our industry props up oppressive regimes, and our condemnation of human rights abuses ring hollow.
We're remarkably tolerant of these oppressive governments and their totalitarian heads of state. The Kings of Bahrain, Oman and Saudi Arabia are even invited to the royal wedding, although Bahrain has wisely declined.
Sources: BBC, Guardian, BBC , SIPRI

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 01:39 AM

"It's entirely possible that they used British ammunition."

Not "entirely possible" at all, in fact it is highly unlikely.

Now Christmas what about Russia now not only sending ammunition, weapons (including heavy weapons - tanks, artillery, etc) but sending anti-terrorist forces to help Assad?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 03:26 AM

Welcome back Jim!
Not your shortest Goodbye For Ever, but one of them.

Syrian soldiers firing into protesting crowds. 17 people were shot dead last week, 112 over the weekend. It's entirely possible that they used British ammunition.
Syrian soldiers are armed with Russian rifles firing ammunition Britain does make, so it entirely impossible.

I know that a licence was issued years ago for much less than a year's supply of ammunition.
But was any delivered?
What could it be?
Their usual suppliers could supply it cheaper, and Britain not at all.

It would have to be bought in from those usual suppliers and then sold on.
Why would anyone do that?

You must see why we find it unbelievable Jim.
You have offered no explanation, so you must find it unbelievable too.
But that is all you have against Britain so you must go on using it, or we might start dwelling on the guilt of your comrade states.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 03:47 AM

"SYRIA: Total value of 1 UK military licence from Oct09 – Oct10 For small arms ammunition. £0.03 million"

"Military export licenses to Libya alone since the start of 2009 totalled £61.3million, according to Department for Business figures.
The UK also awarded Bahrain £6million of licences covering submachine guns, sniper rifles, CS hand grenades, smoke canisters, stun grenades and riot control agents.
At least 26 citizens have been killed and 1,000 injured as the Gulf state cracked down on freedom campaigners.
Britain also approved arms licenses totalling £1.7billion to Saudi Arabia, £20.4million to Egypt, £276.9million to Algeria and £52.8million to the United Arab Emirates.
Body armour and night vision goggles have been approved for Yemen, small arms ammunition for Syria, and sniper rifles, aircraft components and armoured personnel carriers for Saudi Arabia."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/feb/22/uk-arms-sales-middle-east-north-africa
Suggest you follow al the links in this one; containsall the facts and figures of British arms sales

"No documentation that it was supplied"
And no reports exist to prove - or even claim that it wasn't.
It appears that the only two people on the planet making such a claim are a gun fantacist who likes to wave his weapon about to impress the assembled company and an extreme nationalist who believes it "anti-British" to criticise his government's stated policy of selling weapons to despotic killers.
"We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records", he told a crossparty group of senior MPs. "We do business with repressive governments and there's no denying that".
(Vince Cable Secretary of State for Business Innovation and Skills, Assumed office, 12 May 2010)
Have a nice day - y'all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:32 AM

The reason I do not believe any "small arms ammunition" was supplied is because Russian and Chinese factories can produce it cheaper than British factories (workers pay and conditions) and because Britain does not even make ammunition compatible with Syria's Russian weapons.
How do you explain it Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:29 AM

"Britain does not even make ammunition compatible with Syria's Russian weapons."
The claimed knowledge of what weapons are used by Syrian snipers is like everything else you two have claimed on this thread totally unsubstantiated - you both have lied continuously, have presented 'facts' that have proved to be false, - how the **** does anybody know what weapons Syrian snipers carry - do they publish the information on the web - clowns?
Are the Syrians so thick as to put in an order for ammunition they did not use?
How do you explain ALL that Keith - and with this superior knowledge you both claim to possess, why did you both go along with "sniper bullets for as long as you did (each time related to Syria and not Libya, as you now appear to be claiming), repeating that they were "only sniper bullets, purchased too long ago to have any importance, too few to worry about, only for practice, the government didn't know what the Syrian regime were doing to its own people" - all used by the two of you to explain away your identified "sniper bullets")...... and all the other shit you stuck with until the bottom fell out of this particular part of your world?

If you are going to lie - please make an effort and stick to the one story.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:45 AM

The claimed knowledge of what weapons are used by Syrian snipers is like everything else you two have claimed on this thread totally unsubstantiated
Both Teribus and 999 provided details of Syria's sniper and other weapons.-
you both have lied continuously, have presented 'facts' that have proved to be false,
Not true Jim.
Are the Syrians so thick as to put in an order for ammunition they did not use?
Did they put in an order.
Some unknown person applied for a licence some years ago for a small quantity of small arms ammunition.
That is the total of your evidence.
On the strength of that you have made this whole thread about Britain.
No concern for the human catastrophe or those actually culpable.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:18 AM

"Both Teribus and 999 provided details of Syria's sniper and other weapons.-"
I don't know about 999 or where he got his information (which I should have thought, considering the sensitivity of the practice of sniping, would have been classified) but Terribus is a bullshitting liar who appears to believe his gun obsession brings him some sort of status.
"That is the total of your evidence."
The total of my evidence is that Britain licensed an order of small arms ammunition to a country that was torturing and murdering people, and had been for decades.
There are a list of countries with similar records that Britain not only has sold arms and equipment to in the past, but was still touting for buisness with within months of the portests starting. If trouble breaks out in any of these, the dictators will be slaughtering protestors with British arms - again.
Doesn't that bother you at all?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:28 AM

I would be happy to debate the morality of the international arms trade with you, but not on a thread devoted to the unique horror that is Syria now.
I am not bullying you.
I am not censoring you.
I am just declining to indulge your desperation to divert attention from the bloody guilt of your comrade states.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:30 AM

Sorry, that was a rhetorical question - obviously it doesn't bother you.
Can we take that you have now dropped your unsubstantiated claim that the shipment wasn't sent, but are now claiming that it was sent, but to a private individual rather than the Syrian military - thus adding yet another explanation of the sale to the half dozen + you have already given.
Do you think we'll make it the round dozen before the day is out?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:31 AM

which I should have thought, considering the sensitivity of the practice of sniping, would have been classified

You thought wrong then Jim.
As usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:34 AM

Can we take that you have now dropped your unsubstantiated claim that the shipment wasn't sent, but are now claiming that it was sent, but to a private individual rather than the Syrian military - thus adding yet another explanation of the sale to the half dozen + you have already given

A private individual applied for the licence to supply.
I do not believe anything was actually supplied, for all the reasons I have given.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:40 AM

Jimmie boy

YOU have been shown to be the liar, in all cases that evidence has been found.

YOU state that Britain sold ammunition to "Syria", yet you do NOT show WHO IN SYRIA got that ammunition. Without evidence, it is MORE likely that any such ammunition, IF sold to Syria, would have been to the REBELS, who are more likely to have weapons (than the Syrian Army , supplied by Russia) that could even USE such ammunition.

When YOU have some factual evidence about this, feel free to reply- but your tendency to make insults rather than present facts means that most of what you say is ignored, and your own actions have prevented any serious consideration of any valid points you MIGHT have.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:03 AM

From Reuters.


The biggest importer of arms to Syria, Russia sold Damascus nearly $1 billion worth of arms including missile systems last year, while shipments of hard-to-track Russian small weapons have risen since the uprising against Assad started, government defectors say.

In January, the Russian ship Chariot, loaded with arms and ammunition, turned off its radar and sailed quietly to Syria to avoid attracting the attention of world powers increasingly frustrated by Russia and China's refusal to back U.N. Security Council resolutions aimed at ending 11 months of violence.

But rebel soldiers and an official who defected from the government say Moscow's small arms trade with Damascus is booming, and the government doubled its military budget in 2011 to pay for the crackdown on the opposition.

He said by telephone from Cairo that Russian arms accounted for 50 percent of all deals before Assad's crackdown on the protesters. China and North Korea provided 30 percent, and Iran and other suppliers 20 percent, he said.

The government had boosted its defence budget and arms imports by cutting funds to other ministries in areas such as education and health by as much as 30 percent, he said.

"Before the uprising, Russia was trading weapons with Syria in a more limited manner. More recently ... Russia began giving more weapons to Syria," he said.

"To my knowledge, Russia was shipping monthly," he said, referring to deliveries prior to his defection last month.

A LEGAL TRADE

ThomsonReuters shipping data shows at least four cargo ships since December that left the Black Sea port of Oktyabrsk - used by Russian arms exporter Rosoboronexport for arms shipments - have headed for or reached the Syrian port of Tartous.

Separately was the Chariot, a Russian ship which docked at the Cypriot port of Limassol during stormy weather in mid-January. It promised to change its destination in accordance with a European Union ban on weapons to Syria but, hours after leaving Limassol, reset its course for Syria.

A Cypriot source said it was carrying a load of ammunition and a European security source said the ship was hauling ammunition and sniper rifles of the kind used increasingly by Syrian government forces against protesters.

The source also said Russian manufacturers had increased production to meet the demand from Syria.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/21/us-syria-russia-arms-idUSTRE81K13420120221

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:04 AM

"ship was hauling ammunition and sniper rifles of the kind used increasingly by Syrian government forces against protesters."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 01:35 PM

"I don't know about 999 or where he got his information"

Couldn't be easier Christmas - Just Google Syrian Armed Forces - Then:

Step 1: Select Syrian Army
Step 2: Select Section 3 Equipment
Step 3: Click on Modern Equipment and Uniform of the Syrian Army and that takes you to - Equipment of the Syrian Army
Step 4: Select Section 12 deals with Small Arms;
Step 5: Select Sub-Section 12.4 which details Sniper Rifles used by the Syrian Army

And the list is:
Dragunov SVD - Russian
PSL - Romanian
Zastava M91 - Serbian
Steyr SSG 69 - Austrian

See dead simple.

On the other hand Google - UK Arms Sales to Syria - And you get -

FUCK ALL

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 01:36 PM

"A private individual applied for the licence to supply."
Where is your evidence for this?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 02:14 PM

Who else Jim?
Did the government apply to itself?
Did a manufacturer apply?
No. Because we have no manufacturers of Russian ammunition.
OK Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 03:33 PM

No evidence for your statement then - why am I not surprised?
The licence was issued for ammunition to be sold to a state guilty of horrendous human rights abuses - that'll do nicely for the time being.
Have you pair ever considered a double act - now that Morcambe and Wise have gone and Laurel and Hardy are long dead? There's a gap in the market for you out there
I make this the seventh explanation of the (documented) sale of missiles for killing people that don't exist - have I missed any?
As I said before - what a pair of tossers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:55 PM

OK Jim.
Britain probably never supplied, but did issue a licence for thirty grand worth of small arms ammunition it does not make.
Once .
Years ago.

Russia sold Damascus nearly $1 billion worth of arms including missile systems JUST LAST YEAR, and is still shipping it in as fast as it can go.

So why hundreds of posts about Britain and hardly a one about your comrade states?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 04:18 AM

Today.
There have been further reports of heavy shelling from three directions at Sarmin, which is in Idlib province.

The SOHR - which is based in Britain - says government troops are trying to storm the town, which is being bombarded with artillery and large callibre machine-gun fire.


at least 10 civilians on a bus trying to flee to Turkey have been killed.

The group, which included women and children, was shot at in the northern town of Sermin, according to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR).

It describes the northern and eastern districts of Hama as "a battlefield", and says bodies are having to be buried in a local park.

Witnesses say several buildings have been destroyed and many civilians have been wounded.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 11:33 AM

Today, from BBC.
Russian President Dmitri Medvedev has offered full support for envoy Kofi Annan's peace mission in Syria, saying it may be the last chance to avoid a "prolonged and bloody civil war".

The governent in Moscow urged Mr Annan to work with both the Syrian government and opposition to end the violence.

Mr Annan has been seeking to persuade Russia to take a firmer stance against President Bashar al-Assad's government.

He will later go to China which has also usually backed Syria at the UN.

As clashes continue, Human Rights Watch has accused Syrian government forces of using civilians as human shields

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 09:10 PM

A very sad music-related story:

the destruction of Samir Azar's luthiery

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 08:04 AM

Syria's government has agreed to accept the peace plan put forward by the United Nations and Arab League envoy, Kofi Annan,

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 12:36 PM

Iran praises Syria for its handling of uprising

DUBAI (Reuters) - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad praised the Syrian leadership's handling of a year-long uprising in which thousands have died, saying Tehran would do everything it could to support its closest Arab ally, Iranian media reported on Tuesday.
Shi'ite Muslim Iran backed popular uprisings which have removed leaders in Egypt, Libya and Yemen but has steadfastly supported Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, who is a member of the minority Alawite sect, an offshoot of Shi'ite Islam.
"I am very happy that Syrian officials are managing the situation well ... I hope the situation in Syria improves day after day," the official IRNA news agency quoted Ahmadinejad as saying during talks with Assad's special envoy, Faisal Meqdad.
The United Nations said on Tuesday that more than 9,000 people have died in the Syrian government's crackdown on protesters and armed rebels opposed to Assad, while Syrian authorities blame foreign-backed terrorists for the violence and say 3,000 soldiers and police have been killed.

http://news.yahoo.com/iran-praises-syria-handling-uprising-173415780.html


Ahmadinejad said there was no limit to expanding ties with Syria, and Iran would do "all in its power to support this country".

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 01:30 PM

BBC today.
Syrian authorities are systematically detaining and torturing children, the United Nations' human rights chief, Navi Pillay, has told the BBC.

Ms Pillay said President Bashar al-Assad could end the detentions and stop the killing of civilians immediately, simply by issuing an order.

"They've gone for the children - for whatever purposes - in large numbers. Hundreds detained and tortured... it's just horrendous," she said.

"Children shot in the knees, held together with adults in really inhumane conditions, denied medical treatment for their injuries, either held as hostages or as sources of information."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 02:21 PM

Uh-huh. Sure. And where have I heard all this kind of hoo-hah before? The great western media propaganda machine rolls on.

Its latest target: regime change in Syria, and another takeover by western corporates of a country they don't yet fully control. We're being played like violins by our corporate-controlled media, whose purpose is to create overall impressions and manufacture consent.

Here's Eric Margolis' latest column...a breath of balance and reason that is all too rarely heard in our compliant media:

THE DANGEROUS MESS IN SYRIA GROWS MURKIER

Syria's murky, multi-level conflict continues to grow worse. So does public confusion here in the west as the US, British and some European media keep depicting Syria's civil war as a simple passion play pitting the evil Asad regime in Damascus against mostly unarmed democratic protestors.

We saw this same one-dimensional, deceptive reporting recently in Libya that was designed to support foreign intervention. It's as incomplete today about Syria as it was in Libya which, by the way, is turning into a dangerous mess.

My assessment based on reliable primary sources in Washington, Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon:

Support for the Asad family's Ba'ath regime, now in power for 41 years, is clearly slipping. But important sections of the armed forces, the 17 intelligence and security agencies, the powerful Alawai minority, most Syrian Christians, tribal elements and much of the commercial middle and upper class still back the Asad's. In spite of intense western efforts to overthrow him, Bashar Asad, a mild-mannered former eye specialist, is still hanging on.

The US, Britain, France, and some conservative Arab allies have funded and armed the Syrian rebellion from its start a year ago. In fact, the US has been funding anti-Asad groups since the mid 1990's. Arms and munitions are said to be flowing to Syria's rebels through Jordan and Lebanon. Extreme rightwing groups in Lebanon, funded by western and Arab powers and Israel, are playing a key role in infiltrating gunmen and arms into northern Syria.

The Sunni Muslim Brotherhood has once again risen against the Alawi-dominated regime in Damascus. In 1982, this writer was outside the Syrian city of Hama when government forces crushed a Brotherhood uprising, killing an estimated 10,000 people and razing part of the city with heavy artillery.

Enter the jihadis. Recently, small numbers of al-Qaida veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan have entered Syria and are using car bombs to try to destabilize the government. Current al-Qaida leader, Dr Ayman al-Zawahiri, has called for all-out war against the Asad regime.

Interestingly, the US, France and Britain now find themselves in bed with the very jihadist forces they profess to abhor – but, of course, whom they used in Afghanistan in the 1980's and, lately, in Libya.

Add to this dangerous mix growing numbers of local militias in Syria who are battling one another and committing many of the atrocities against civilians, recalling Iraq and Lebanon's bloody civil wars.

Washington's key objective in Syria is to overthrow the Asad regime in order to injure its closest ally, Iran. There is so much anti-Iranian hysteria now in the US, that any blow against the Islamic republic is seen as good. Former US fears of a chaotic, post-Asad Syria are now forgotten in the rush to undermine Iran, by destabilizing Syria. Republicans, led by Sen. John McCain, are baying for war against Syria as President Barack Obama tries to hold back the war hawks.

Israel, whose influence in Washington in this election year is unprecedented, is stoking war fever against Syria and Iran. Israel is delighted that the crises with both nations have eclipsed the issue of Palestine and of Syria's Golan Heights, which were illegally annexed by Israel in 1981. Golan supplies one third of Israel's total water. Israel's objective is to see Syria splintered into feuding cantons like today's Iraq.

France's right wing, led by President Nicholas Sarkozy's UMP party, has long desired to re-establish France's former colonial influence in Lebanon and Syria. The Asad regime in Syria has been a thorn in France's side for four decades, particularly so in Lebanon, which Syria still insists is a historical part of Syria. France hopes to duplicate in Syria its success in stirring up and profiting from the uprising in Libya.

Russia has been defending the Asad regime and is determined not to be outfoxed in Syria by a false "humanitarian" intervention as it was in Libya. China is similarly cautious. But both are slowly lessening their former staunch support of Damascus as seen by last week's UN Security Council call for a new peace plan in Syria.

A cease fire is urgently needed. Syria must stop using heavy weapons in urban areas. But outside powers must also stop supporting violent armed groups that Damascus calls "terrorists." There are no clean hands in Syria.

copyright Eric S. Margolis 2012

*****


And that, folks, covers all the bases. It tells you what most of our corporate media is not telling you. Western governments don't give a tinker's damn about civilian casualties in Syria. They couldn't care less if women and children and innocents die. Nor could they care less about establishing a democracy there. They are just as bad as Mr Asad, if not worse...and they are far more dangerous to the world than Mr Asad. What they have in mind is overthrowing another independent government that they don't yet dominate (one of the few left), taking over whatever resources they can in Syria, destroying it as an effective political power, and exploiting the place for all it's worth, and thus positioning themselves better to hurt Iran. They have been illegally and secretly arming and fomenting a civil war in Syria, just as they did previously in Lybia. Mr Asad is just a PR excuse for war...a "face" to hate, as Khadafi was before him, and as Saddam was before him. If the West succeeds in overthrowing Asad, the end result will be that the Syrian people and the Syrian nation will be EVEN worse off in a short while than they were under the Asad regime. MUCH worse off, in fact. Their nation will be fragmented and to all intents, destroyed. Their public institutions will be gutted and sold off to western corporates at bargain basement prices. The hundreds of thousands of people once employed in their public institutions will mostly lose their jobs. Foreign contractors will come in to profit off "reconstruction". This happens everywhere that the Western powers go when they bring down a noncompliant Third World government that wouldn't do things their way.

Just like what happened to Iraq since 2003. Just like what's happening in Lybia now.

You're being played like violins by your corporate news media, using standard emotional reaction techniques that have been employed again and again in your media. They will keep getting you all excited about the Syrian civilian casualties and victims that their corporate bosses and your politicians couldn't care less about. This struggle is NOT about helping ANY Syrian civilians. And it won't help any Syrian civilians. It will hurt them. Just like in Iraq. Just like in Lybia.

Same old game. Different playing field. We're living within great imperial powers folks, and they lie to us every single day about what they are really doing. And they kill people in the Third World. For more money, resources, and power. Asad is nothing more than a superficial excuse. If it wasn't him, it would be some other handy "face" for you to focus on. He is being used as a marketing tool, just as Khadafi and Saddam were. And you fall for it, don't you?

Nope, I'm not gonna argue with you about it.

That would just eat up my time uselessly and achieve absolutely nothing. I'm just telling you about it ONCE, and that's it. Carry on fantasizing about the latest great "humanitarian" crusade of the New World Order.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 02:42 PM

And I will not argue with you LH.
The opposition may be no better than Assad.

I do think it undeniable that Assad's regime is guilty of extreme crimes against humanity.
The worst the world has seen for many years.
The evidence for that is overwhelming.
I go further and hold those who provide the means as also culpable.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 01:24 AM

Margolis a revisionist historian, "Eisenhower Republican" and middle-east "expert".

Casts dark hints about "another takeover by western corporates of a country they don't yet fully control" (There hasn't been one yet, so I do not know where the "another" comes from). Yet not one western corporate player named. Talking about names, as a middle-east expert I would have thought that he would have got the ASSAD family name right.

Subject: RE: BS: Houla horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 12 - 05:09 PM

It continues.
Dozens of children, throats cut and head shot, according to BBC man there.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Beer
Date: 27 May 12 - 08:54 PM

"The tragic events in Syria and the deaths of tens of people deserve condemnation," said Russia's Deputy Foreign Minister Gennady Gatilov, writing on Twitter, Sunday. "However it is necessary to seriously examine the causes of what happened."

Taken from this news article.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/syrian-massacre-could-hasten-end-to-civil-strife/article2444812/

Yep!, sure... lets examine the causes. Lots of time. Mean while a few more hundred will be killed.
Adrien

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 12 - 12:55 PM

And the crocodile tears go on - here and elsewhere.
What a pity Syria does not have significant supplies of oil; then there would be whole armies queuing up on the Syrian border keen to seek out all those weapons of mass destruction and put Assad where he belongs.
As it is, if he gets his act together, he could still be in time for an invite to the Jubilee knees-up at Buck House (maybe he can share a table with the Bahraini leaders).
From this morning's Times - says it all really.   
Jim Carroll

THE CHILDREN OF HOULA WILL SOON BE FORGOTTEN
The. international community expresses horror but will not act in Syria, and Assad knows it
It is becoming wearily familiar. The Syrian regime commits an egregious atrocity. The international community issues condemnations. Nothing happens. Will it be different this time? Could the massacre of 90 civilians, a third of them children, in the village of Houla prove the tipping point? Can world leaders really watch the footage of those grotesquely mutilated young bodies and still argue that there is a ceasefire in place, that the 270 unarmed UN observers on the ground in Syria are making a difference, and that Kofi Annan's six-point peace plan still stands a chance of working? The UN Security Council was meeting to consider its response last night. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has summoned the senior Syrian diplomat in London for a dressing-down today (did we not want to disturb his weekend?).
Hillary Clinton is demanding an end to President Assad's "rule by murder and fear". The French want an urgent meeting of the "Friends of Syria" group. Mr Annan and Ban Ki-moon, the UN Secretary-General, have jointly denounced this "flagrant violation of international law".
I fear it is so much rhetoric. After 15 months of increasing violence certain truths have become self-evident. The Assad regime is impervious to diplomatic or economic pressure. It will do whatever is necessary to ensure its survival, and its blueprint is the destruction of Hama, Syria's rebellious fourth city, by Assad's father in 1982. As many as 20,000 civilians were killed on that occasion, but the regime survived and the world moved on.
I was in rebel-held Syria days after the Annan plan was "implemented" last month. To a man, the fighters of the Free Syrian Army told me that it was a charade; that it would serve merely to give the regime more time to crush the uprising. They were right.
Another truth should also be by now self-evident: for all the talk of buffer zones, no-fly zones and humanitarian corridors, the West is not going to intervene militarily to end the carnage.
At a time when US and European publics are heartily sick of wars in the Islamic world, and their governments are rushing to extricate their forces from the debacle of Afghanistan, they will not countenance intervention in a country that has "quagmire" written all over it. That is especially true with a US presidential election looming this autumn, and an outside chance of a conflict with Iran as well.
Libya was different. It was a small, relatively homogenous country in which few outside powers had much interest. After 40 years of egregious excess Colonel Muammar Gaddafi was virtually friendless. The Arab League called for Nato's intervention to prevent an imminent wholesale slaughter in Benghazi and the UN Security Council approved it
Syria, by contrast, is a mosaic of ethnic and religious groups who used to cohabit peacefully but are now thirsting for blood. It is the object of any number of conflicting and combustible international interests— Iranian, Russian, Israeli, Turkish.
There is no way that Russia and China would let the Security Council approve military intervention even if there was an appetite for such a course, and how could such a country possibly be governed if the regime was removed by foreign forces? Think of Iraq, but worse.
Mrs Clinton described the Annan plan as Assad's "last chance", but arguably it was last chance for an international community desperate to conceal its own impotence.
All options are now on the table, we're told, but they are precious few. The international community can impose yet more economic sanctions, but while they have undoubtedly caused hardship they are unlikely to topple the regime. The West can turn a blind eye while Gulf States funnel arms to the disorganised rebels, but that is unlikely to change the dynamic unless done on an industrial scale. Western leaders may step up their efforts to persuade Russia to stop selling arms to the regime, but they stand little chance of success.
I hope I am wrong, but I would guess that the deaths of Houla's women and children will be largely forgotten by next weekend, overshadowed by events closer to home: the deepening euro crisis, the onset of summer, even the Diamond Jubilee celebration .

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 12 - 01:10 PM

Are we monsters Jim, that we are incapable of being touched and offendede by such atrocities, and only use them to further some unspecified, monstrous objectives?

Any criticism of Russia for shipping in resupplies after Assad's expenditure of ammunition in Houla?

From Moscow Times.

UNITED NATIONS — A Russian cargo ship loaded with weapons is en route to Syria and was due to arrive at a Syrian port over the weekend, Al Arabiya television said in a report that Western diplomats in New York described as credible.

Syria is one of Russia's top weapons customers. The United States and European Union have suggested that the UN Security Council should impose an arms embargo and other UN sanctions on Syria for its 14-month assault on a pro-democracy opposition determined to oust Syrian President Bashar Assad.

Syria has blamed rebels for thousands of deaths, including the killing of at least 109 people, including dozens of children, in the restive town of Houla on Friday.

Russia, with the support of fellow veto power China, has prevented the UN Security Council from imposing any sanctions on Syria and has refused to halt arms sales to Damascus.

"Al Arabiya has learned that a Russian cargo ship carrying a large amount of weapons plans to unload its cargo in the Syrian port of Tartus," the broadcaster said on its website late last week.

The report said the ship left a Russian port on May 6 and cited a "Western source" as saying it would dock at Tartus on Saturday. It was unclear Sunday whether the ship had docked.

"The ship is trying to conceal its final destination in a suspicious way," Al Arabiya said.

Western diplomats and officials said the report was credible.

In a letter to the UN Security Council, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said he had seen reports of countries supplying arms to the government and rebels. He urged states not to arm either side in the Syrian conflict.

"Those who may contemplate supporting any side with weapons, military training or other military assistance, must reconsider such options to enable a sustained cessation of violence," he said.

Russia has defended its weapons deliveries to Syria in the face of Western criticism, saying government forces need to defend themselves against rebels receiving arms from abroad.

Damascus says Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Libya are among the countries helping the rebels.



Read more: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/report-russian-arms-sent-to-syria/459334.html#ixzz1wBVRPYsV
The Moscow Times

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 12 - 02:56 PM

Just won a bet with myself that you would be the first to defend the inaction on Syria - (that's what it has been from the beginning, and was stated openly on the Question Time programme all those months ago) - surprise, surprise!!!.
You have defended the British sales of military equipment to this bastard, (six seperate excuses from you to date) you have proposed the sale of riot equipment to him, you have attempted to shoot down any proposals for direct action against him, financial or military, you have opposedf the idea that his gofer who regularly visits London and owns £ms worth of property there, be acted against in the form of arrest or confiscation..... you have even suggested that Assad be left to his own devices because "I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls."
For someone who does as much handwringing and sackcloth and ashes as you do, you come over as one of his keenest supporters - stomach heavingly monstrous indeed.
I wonder how you are going to defend Britain's relationship with China after all this is over.
"Today, however, China and Britain enjoy a friendly, cooperative, and close relationship. China and Britain have established a full strategic partnership and close cooperation.[1][2]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93United_Kingdom_relations
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 12 - 02:59 PM

BTW - yes - of couse I find the shipping of weapons by Russia murderously disgusting - I just don't see much difference between the way our governments are behaving and continue to behave - unlike you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 12 - 03:21 PM

Jim, You have defended the British sales of military equipment to this bastard
No I have not.
I have questioned your assertion that a few bullets were sold, years ago, when we do not make what they use!

Inaction?
Independent today-
David Cameron and William Hague were today involved in high-level international talks to ratchet up pressure on Syrian President Bashar Assad in the wake of the massacre of more than 100 people, including women and small children.

The Foreign Secretary flew to Moscow for talks with opposite number Sergei Lavrov to try to secure Russian backing for a fresh United Nations Security Council resolution against the Assad regime and to warn of the danger of "all-out civil war" in the Middle Eastern state.

What extra action does Jim advocate?