BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 12 - 03:51 PM

"I have questioned your assertion that a few bullets were sold, years ago, when we do not make what they use!
"
No you haven't questioned anything of the sort - you identified them as sniper bullets and excused them for 'only' being such.
Realising what a magnificent foot-in-mouth you made, given the slaughter by snipers in Homs, you then denied their existence, claimed they had never been sent, must have been used up years ago, only a small order.... you name it, you claimed it.
Cameron and Hague's statement is vacuous bullshit - but I will accept their minds must be preoccupied at the moment with how they are going to defend the crooked Baroness.
"What extra action does Jim advocate?"
You've had it, and opposed it; can't be arsed repeating it - break the habit of a lifetime and read the thread.
I assume you are not going to bother defending your proposal to send your beloved leader riot equipment!!
Mealy mouthed as ever.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 12 - 01:47 AM

Jim, your dishonesty shames you.

I have no knowledge of any sniper ammunition supplied by Britain to Syria.
Neither have you, because it is a lie.
You know this because it has all been explained to you before, but you keep on with it.

Britain has supplied Syria NO weapons, NO sniper ammunition and almost certainly NO ammunition at all because Britain does not make what they use.

This thread is about the ongoing tragedy in Syria.
Please take your deranged obsession against Britain somewhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 12 - 03:10 AM

It's all above Keith - your whole, sordid arguments, along with your attempts to prevent discussion on the real issues, the buddy-buddy attitude adopted by Britain and the US towards these despots, torurers and murderers, especially if they have oil to sell us - all on record.
It would be inhuman not to be appalled at what these monsters have done, and are continuing to do to their people, but it is equally inhuman not to recognise the part played by our govenments in supporting them - in ignoring their behaviour, by supplying them with the wherewithal to carry out their crimes, and in validating them by continuing a cosy relationship with them (and by describing as "racist" the suggestion that we should not trade arms with them, as Cameron has done.
It is all this that you have supported at one time or another and have attempted to make "thread drift" - there's the shame.
The sale of small arms ammunition to Syria is on record - in government documents reproduced by the national press (see above) - it doesn't matter how long ago and how much - the Assads have been torturing ang killing their people for decades, yet these sales went through, and still Britain continues to trade arms to monsters - conclusively proved by Cameron's hosting a Middle East arms fair after the Arab Spring protests have begun.
And you propose that we should sell these people riot control equipment.
Shame indeed, but not mine.
Jim Carroll

"UK arms sales to the Middle East
In the papers today, another story about Syrian soldiers firing into protesting crowds. 17 people were shot dead last week, 112 over the weekend. It's entirely possible that they used British ammunition. It's not the first time our equipment has been used this year to suppress calls for the democracy that we enjoy ourselves.
Bahrain: Dozens of people have been killed and hundreds more arrested and beaten since protests began in February.
Recent UK arms sales to Bahrain include: Assault rifles, submachine guns, shotguns, CS hand grenades, tear gas.
Egypt: Over 400 people died and 6,000 were injured before Hosni Mubarak resigned.
UK arms sales to Egypt: Machine guns, bombs, missiles
Libya: Several thousand dead, the country is now in civil war.
UK arms sales to Libya: ammunition, tear gas, armoured cars.
Oman: Relatively peaceful, but several deaths reported.
UK arms sales to Oman: ammunition, pistols, submachine guns, tear gas, CS and stun grenades.
Saudi Arabia: No protests here, but Saudi troops are operating in Bahrain, where they have been assisting in the destruction of Shia mosques.
UK arms sales to Saudi Arabia: Vehicles, armoured personnel carriers, tear gas, sniper rifles
Syria: An estimated 350 people have died since the start of protests in March.
UK arms sales to Syria: small arms ammunition
Yemen: At least 45 killed in a massacre on March 18th.
UK arms sales to Yemen: ammunition
Britain controls 20% of the world's arms sales. This is nothing to be proud of. Our industry props up oppressive regimes, and our condemnation of human rights abuses ring hollow.
We're remarkably tolerant of these oppressive governments and their totalitarian heads of state. The Kings of Bahrain, Oman and Saudi Arabia are even invited to the royal wedding, although Bahrain has wisely declined."
(Sources - BBC, Guardian, Stockholm Institute for Peace Studies)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 12 - 03:21 AM

Britain has no culpability for the tragedy of Syria.
Britain is one of the good guys on this.

A licence issued, years ago, for the supply of a few bullets that Britain does not make.

NO ARMAMENTS SUPPLIED BY BRITAIN, so why are all your posts about Britain and not the ACTUAL SUPPLIERS, Russia and Iran?

Give you mad obsessions and vendettas a rest on this one Jim.
It is too serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 12 - 04:00 AM

The Independent yesterday.

The Foreign Secretary William Hague will summon the Syrian charge d'affairs to the Foreign Office tomorrow in order to express Britain's condemnation of the massacre in Houla.

According to reports from UN observers more than 90 people were killed in villages in the Houla area of central Syria on Saturday.

At least 32 of those killed were children under 10.

Images of the massacre have provoked international outrage, and have prompted William Hague to call for an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council in order to plan a response.

Mr Hague has also increased the diplomatic pressure on Syria today.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 12 - 04:05 AM

You've read, the book, seen the movie - now swallow the consequences.
Selling these bastards ant sort of equipment makes us culpable
"express Britain's condemnation "
Sums it up really (having sold them equipment, do FA)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 12 - 04:19 AM

"do FA"

Britain has not done FA.
It is more active than any country in trying to break the log jam caused by Russian intransigence.
You are confusing it with your adopted country perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 12 - 06:32 AM

Ya=eah-yeah - heard it all before, Britain still has sold military equipment to Syria and you have still supported it and called for them to sell more
Byeee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 12 - 06:39 AM

Re. those three statements Jim.
Not true, not true, and not true.
Three lies in a single sentence must be a record, even for you.

Now, any contribution to the actual subject under discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Houla horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 12 - 07:20 AM

From BBC site today.

Victims of the Houla massacre included dozens of children

Most of the 108 people killed in Syria's Houla region on Friday were summarily executed, the UN says.

A spokesman for the UN's human rights office says witnesses told investigators that pro-regime militias carried out most of the killings.

Survivors have described gunmen entering homes, firing indiscriminately and slitting the throats of children.

The UN statement comes as UN-Arab League envoy Kofi Annan is meeting President Bashar al-Assad in Damascus.

Rupert Colville, spokesman for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, told journalists in Geneva that initial investigations suggested that fewer than 20 of the victims in the village of Taldou, near Houla, were killed by artillery or tank fire.

"Most of the rest of the victims in Taldou," he added, "were summarily executed in two separate incidents."

Earlier, survivors who spoke to the BBC said that those who carried out the killings were militiamen - shabiha - from nearby Alawite villages.

Mr Annan called the massacre "an appalling moment with profound consequences".

Western leaders have expressed horror at the killings, and the UK, France and US have all begun moves to raise diplomatic pressure on the Assad government.

The French government said "the murderous folly" of the Damascus regime threatened regional security, and announced it was expelling the Syrian ambassador in Paris.


However Russia, which supplies arms to the Syrian government and has blocked UN resolutions calling for action against Damascus, has blamed both sides for Friday's massacre.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 12 - 08:32 AM

Washington Post today.

British officials said Tuesday that the U.K. is expelling three Syrian diplomats in protest at the killings, among them Charge d'Affaires Ghassan Dalla — the country's top ranking diplomat in London.

Hague confirmed that the United States, Canada, Germany, Spain, France, Italy and Australia were all taking action to expel the diplomats.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 12 - 08:39 AM

Foreign Secretary William Hague, said: "We are increasing the pressure on the Assad regime and getting the message across that the international community is appalled by the murder of so many innocent people.

"So as part of that pressure today we have again called the Syrian charge in London here to the foreign office.

"He has been given seven days to leave the country. Other Syrian diplomats, two other diplomats, will be expelled at the same time.

"Our allies and partners around the world will be taking similar action.

"Of course we will seek other ways to increase the pressure - we are discussing in the EU a further tightening of sanctions."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 12 - 01:04 PM

All these horrors are caused by our interference in the affairs of other nations, most of which are tribal in culture.

We cynically encouraged "pro-democracy" insurgency in Egypt Libya and Syria without a thought for the probable outcome.....Islamist governments or civil war.

It will take generations to bring "democracy" to these countries with no guarantee that the lot of the people will be improved.
"Democracy" is not the silver bullet, we only have to look at what is happening to our own society for proof of that.

We should keep our snouts out of the business of others.
As a Russian spokesman said today, "the United Nations always makes things worse"

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 12 - 04:16 PM

The Arab Spring took the West by surprise.
The West were not responsible for it.
It raised unrealistic expectations and hopes that remain unfulfilled.
Western countries did not intervene in Egypt or Tunisia, and have yet to intervene in Syria.

I do not accept that the horror in Syria was "caused by our intervention."
I would say that it came from within, and is wholly Arab in origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 12 - 06:58 AM

I have been reading here how the non-intervention policy of the UN was right, how and why it didn't do as it did in Lybya and activly assist the rebels, why it was right for British politicians to say, as they did, that it would be wrong to intervene for fear of what would rplace the Assad regime - why it was permissable to sell small arms ammunition to a regime which had a record of torture and murder (fully reported by Amnesty International).
I wait with bated breath to learn why the world should continue to stand by and watch what is happening in Syria as if it were a Quentin Tarrantino movie.
Leader in this morning's Times
Jim Carroll

RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT
THE ASSAD REGIME BELIEVES THAT IT CAN MURDER WITH IMPUNITY. THE TIME HAS NOW COME TO ACT AND SHOW IT THAT IT IS WRONG
It may be that no one in the presidential pal¬ace in Damascus actually gave the order that pro-regime militiamen should follow up an artillery barrage of a civilian area of the town of Houla with a massacre of child¬ren. They may not have specified the number to be shot in the head, or to have their throats slit, or whether all or some should first be bound. Per¬haps senior officials only demanded a "clean-up" operation, leaving the exact details of the opera¬tion to the initiative of the Shabiha commanders. Those specifics come into clearer and more horrible focus with every hour. Much of the photo¬graphic evidence of what took place is too harrowing to publish. It shows the bodies of young children, some who would never have known what it .was to speak or walk, lying in rows on the floor of a makeshift morgue. The vast majority of these pictures—photographs of toddlers who have suf¬fered gunshots to the head — this newspaper has chosen not to print, out of concern for its readers. But equally out of a duty to inform its readers it has taken the decision that some, at least, of these pictures must be seen.
Those civilians in the village of Taldou who survived by dint of hiding or pretending to be dead are united in their accounts — that the killings were carried out by the Shabiha militia. More than 100 people, 49 of them children, were murdered, as though formally executed, in an act that paral¬lels the worst atrocities of Bosnia or Rwanda; and in a country subject to a diplomatic process involving the United Nations and in an area acces¬sible to observers working for the United Nations. "Never again" has happened again.
There are definitions of what constitutes a war crime and a crime against humanity. If these crimes do not satisfy them, the terms are empty. Since protests against his autocracy began 15 months ago, President Assad has made gestures of reform that stand exposed as less even than cos¬metic — as bad jokes. His overriding policy is to eradicate rather than defuse dissent. His principal method is artillery and tank shelling of town after town and village after village—not fortified areas but houses and even field hospitals. His campaign i of barbarism has now extended to crimes that are a class apart even from this.
The regime must have known that its decision to obliterate rather than deal with opposition would produce massacres like Houla. And it isn't difficult to understand what it has been telling itself. Go for it. Kill them, if necessary.
The West, Mr Assad's courtiers will have advised him, lacks any practical appetite to interfere in your war on your own people. Scarred by Iraq, embroiled in Afghanistan, facing elections in America and a continuing economic crisis, it is most unlikely that Western nations will seek another entanglement. The Syrian regime will have calculated that, unlike with Gaddafi's Libya, its government still enjoys the support of one major power — Russia — whose weight will be thrown in the balance against any international intervention. So (Mr Assad's advisers will tell him), smile, say the words, greet Kofi with one hand and with the other destroy the opposition using whatever force is necessary.
The world will express horror at the pictures, sigh a great sigh at the inhumanity of man to man, regret the complexity of the situation in this tinderbox of a region, and then move on. Syria's men abroad will have reported back the broadcast misgivings of former diplomats in Britain and elsewhere that anything useful can be done at all.
There are many things said and written about the legality of intervention in foreign countries. But there has also been, in recent years, a burgeoning if incomplete recognition of what is called the "responsibility to protect". This partly refers to a government's responsibility to keep its citizens from harm, but it also applies to the duty of the international community to make sure that this happens. Put bluntly, the question asks itself in this way: how much more murder has to happen before we feel obliged to take action to stop it?
Houla is the tipping point in Syria. There should be no further period of inaction, of standing by and watching murder and mayhem inflicted on innocents. The Syrian regime has declared •war on the Syrian people, a people we should regard as allies. It is clear, not least from the disgusting apologetics of its foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, that Russia, the country many have hoped would act as an interlocutor with the Assad regime, is actually part of the problem and not the solution. Russia, it seems, wants to hold on to its ally at all costs, especially if those costs are being borne by expendable Syrian children. It is now as relevant for demonstrators to gather outside the Russian Embassy as to protest outside that of Syria. We say this in a spirit of sadness, rather than belligerence. We had desired so much more.
So what can Britain and some of the other friends of Syria actually accomplish? Id the first instance we must try to alter rdadically the balance of calculation being made in Damascus. Singly, or with the help of powers such as Turkey, or in a wider alli¬ance Britain should seek to take active measures , to isolate and discomfort the regime and, more importantly, to protect civilians. The British Government should take the most stringent action it can to cause economic pain to Mr Assad, his family (including those living in this country) and his officials, including the seizure of assets.
It should investigate, without delay, the practicability of establishing safe havens on the border of Syria, Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon, where civilians and opponents of the regime will be guarateed protection from regime forces. These safe havens may require commitment of troops, artillery and air defences. The use of drones for surveillance over civilian areas should be examined. And if necessary the arming of rebels to enable them to resist the regime forces and to protect their own people should be contemplated, and soon.
This newspaper is as wary as anyone in Britain of becoming once again involved in foreign strug¬gles. The country is weary of years of doing so much of the world's military heavy lifting and is anything but flush with public cash. So this is not the way we hoped it would work out. We wanted and argued to give peace a chance, even as it became clear that the Syrian regime had little inter¬est in reform. And it would be possible to look the other way. But what kind of country would Britain be, and what kind of people would young Syrians take us for, if we allowed the slaughter to continue? President Assad should know that the period of "do nothing" is over.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 12 - 07:05 AM

I wait with bated breath to learn why the world should continue to stand by and watch what is happening in Syria as if it were a Quentin Tarrantino movie.

Here is your answer Jim.(Telegraph today)

With Russian and Chinese support, the UN Security Council on Sunday strongly condemned the Syrian government for using artillery in a massacre in the central town of Houla in which at least 108 people were killed.

But Russia, which along with China has vetoed two UN Security Council resolutions highly critical of President Bashar al-Assad's regime, on Wednesday said it was "premature" for the council to consider new action.

"We believe that a review now by the Security Council of any new measures on the situation would be premature," Deputy Foreign Minister Gennady Gatilov told the Interfax news agency in comments that appeared to dash Washington's hopes of a change of heart in Moscow.

The US State Department had said on Tuesday it hoped the Houla tragedy would spark a "turning point" in Russia's reluctance to take tougher action against its Soviet-era ally.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 12 - 07:12 AM

The answer was in your Times article Jim!
Did you not read it yourself?
" The Syrian regime has declared •war on the Syrian people, a people we should regard as allies. It is clear, not least from the disgusting apologetics of its foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, that Russia, the country many have hoped would act as an interlocutor with the Assad regime, is actually part of the problem and not the solution. Russia, it seems, wants to hold on to its ally at all costs, especially if those costs are being borne by expendable Syrian children. It is now as relevant for demonstrators to gather outside the Russian Embassy as to protest outside that of Syria."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 12 - 07:41 AM

Do you still take the Irish Times Jim?
Today it quoted the socialist President of France.
"Mr Hollande said Moscow and Beijing together presented the main obstacle to the adoption of tougher sanctions against Mr Assad."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 12 - 08:19 AM

Does not answer the points made - that ay country could have taken unilateral action and overridden Russia's and China's veto - they have elswher and there is no doubt they would have done had there been national interests, such as OIL.
You are still supporting the massacres by prposing that nothing can be done even MURDOCH'S RAG HAS PROPOSED THEIR SHOULD BE ACTION)and you are still hidingbehing the opinions ofthers What do YOU HNK - should Britain - the US etc step in and stp the mssacres or should the world go on treating it as a spectator sport? answers on a postcard please!!
"The US State Department had said on Tuesday it hoped the Houla tragedy would spark a "turning point" "
Mealy-mouthed bullshit from those who said it and you who support it.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 12 - 08:22 AM

Sorry about typos - keyboard playing up again - before your fick friend tries to use it as a diversion
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 12 - 09:10 AM

that any country could have taken unilateral action and overridden Russia's and China's veto - they have elswhere

Are you incapable of rational thought on this Jim?
The Security Council can not over ride a veto!
That is why stronger UN action is not possible

What "unilateral action" could "any country" take ??!!!!

And you accuse others of talking BS!
Or is it all the fault of your keyboard?

You have absolutely nothing rational or sensible to say have you.
You just pursue your mad vendettas.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 12 - 09:15 AM

You left out part of the quote.
"The US State Department had said on Tuesday it hoped the Houla tragedy would spark a "turning point" in Russia's reluctance to take tougher action against its Soviet-era ally."

Mealy-mouthed bullshit?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 12 - 03:16 PM

"The Security Council can not over ride a veto!"
There are other sanctions that can be taken, and should have been after Homs
Assad is a war criminal who has sanctioned the slaughter of non-combatants; it falls within the scope of the UN to act on that fact.
Britain and the US were ready enough to look for 'weapons of mass destruction' in Iraq, there was nothing stopping them moving into Syria - as they did Libya.
These are war crimes - they continue to take place while the world stands by with its hands in its pockets.
Leading british politicians made it clear from the beginning that they would not intervene in Syria - they said so in front of an audience and the reason they gave was political, 'you cannot trust a new leadership in Syria to be politically acceptable to the west. Philip Hammond; Liberal Democrat peer, Shirley Williams; and Daily Mail journalist Ann Leslie said exactly that. Your answer at the time - "The Government does not announce policy on BBC Question Time!" It has no policy to announce - it continues to do nothing. They all share the blame along with the Russians and the Chinese for the slaughter going on there
Even on humanitarian grounds alone they should have taken steps to at least defend the civilians - what was proposed in the Times leader this morning should have happened months ago - no oil, no humanity it seems.
Your continued defence for no inaction makes your croc tears all the more sickening.
And no - not mealy mouthed bullshit I HAVE MADE IT CLEAR THAT I AM SICKENED BY CAPITALIST RUSSIA'S AND COMMUNIST CHINA'S SUPPORT FOR ASSAD; But I can see no difference in their support for Assad and the West's support by its continued inaction - all of them are facilitating mass murder - which is what you are supporting by claimin nothing can be done.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 12 - 03:45 PM

There are other sanctions that can be taken, and should have been after Homs

Yes, and they HAVE been taken.
Taken by EU nations and US and others, but ignored by Russia and China.

Assad is a war criminal who has sanctioned the slaughter of non-combatants; it falls within the scope of the UN to act on that fact.

Russia and China disagree and use their veto to stop it acting.


Britain and the US were ready enough to look for 'weapons of mass destruction' in Iraq, there was nothing stopping them moving into Syria - as they did Libya.
No veto was used to stop UN in those cases Jim

These are war crimes - they continue to take place while the world stands by with its hands in its pockets.

Russia and China refuse to admit that Jim.

Leading british politicians made it clear from the beginning that they would not intervene in Syria - they said so in front of an audience and the reason they gave was political, 'you cannot trust a new leadership in Syria to be politically acceptable to the west. Philip Hammond; Liberal Democrat peer, Shirley Williams; and Daily Mail journalist Ann Leslie said exactly that. Your answer at the time - "The Government does not announce policy on BBC Question Time!" It has no policy to announce - it continues to do nothing.

Lie Jim.
You know it is a lie because I have posted for you the actions Britain has taken and encouraged other nations to take in concert.
Again you use this thread and this tragedy as a vehicle for your crazed vendetta against Britain.

They all share the blame along with the Russians and the Chinese for the slaughter going on there

That slur is despicable and you can not substantiate it.

Even on humanitarian grounds alone they should have taken steps to at least defend the civilians

Arab league and UN officials have tried and failed.
They idea that Britain should mount an invasion is ludicrous.
You are ludicrous.

Your continued defence for no inaction makes your croc tears all the more sickening.

I do not defend inaction.
Like the leaders of the worlds nations I do not know what action can be taken in the teeth of Russian and Chinese opposition.
"Croc tears" It is a disgusting thing to say about me that I do not really care.
You are disgusting.

I can see no difference in their support for Assad and the West's support by its continued inaction - all of them are facilitating mass murder - which is what you are supporting by claimin nothing can be done.
Then you are truly an ignorant, blind fool.
Their support for Assad and their breaking of all the sanctions is the reason he is able to go on murdering children.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 12 - 04:06 AM

Jim, this should reassure you that UK is not being complacent over this.

"The Prime Minister wants to be sure that we are doing all we can to bring an end to the violence in Syria and to support the process of transition.

"The National Security Council considered the range of diplomatic efforts being pursued by the Government and agreed that we need to keep working with our international partners to make clear to the Assad regime that they must comply with the Annan plan, to stop killing and maiming their own citizens and that those responsible for the brutal violence will be held accountable for their actions.

"Our goal is a peaceful political transition and our focus remains on the Annan plan but the Assad regime should not make the mistake of believing that we will abandon the Syrian people.

The spokesman said the UN Human Rights Council will hold an emergency session in Geneva on Friday, at the request of the UK, to discuss the situation in Syria.

"We will keep up these efforts in the weeks ahead to help increase the international pressure on the regime to bring this oppression to an end," he added.

Hague said he would like to see President Assad appear at the International Criminal Court (ICC) over the Houla massacre but there was little hope of the UN Security Council agreeing to refer the regime to the tribunal.

Of course terrible crimes have been committed, there must be no impunity for those crimes."

"Britain has sent teams to the borders of Syria to assemble evidence. We've done that over recent months about earlier crimes that have been committed and we have helped bring together in the international community the ability to collect the evidence about such crimes.

"But this subject takes us back to the problem at the UN Security Council where we have united behind the Annan plan but not behind stronger action.

"To refer Syria, a country which is not a party to the International Criminal Court, to that court would require a resolution of the UN Security Council and there we, of course, are blocked."
Russia and China, both permanent members of the council with the power of veto, have been reluctant to support the action demanded by the UK and others at the international institution.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 12 - 11:27 AM

There is no indication here that any action will be taken to stop what i going on in Syria - rather like witnessing a thug kicking somebody to death and telling him that he will eventually be punished for his crimes.
This is transparent bollocks.
Even the establishment-supporting Times ha said so in its leader article, along with immediate proposals of what can be done.
The real "Homs Horror" is that the world has stood by and watched while a war criminal has massacred his own people AND DONE NOTHING
"we are doing all we can" -"discuss the situation in Syria" "make clear to the Assad regime that they must comply with the Annan plan" "assemble evidence" "help increase the international pressure" "there must be no impunity for those crimes."
Days ago people - including 40 odd children, were shot in the back of the head and had their throats cut - name one piece of action in your cut-'n-pastes which will in any way stop it happening again and again and again and again........
How many more massacres have to take place before you sickos demand that positive action takes place - despite your 'worries about he Christians.
I suggest you take your head out of the British establishments arse and look what they are allowing by their inaction.
NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF SYRIA WAS A SIGNIFICANT OIL SUPPLIER
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 12 - 11:52 AM

None of WHAT would have happened, Jim? What on earth has that to do with it?

And WHAT is this action that we must take, precisely, to ensure an end to these atrocities; and ensure that no regime who will simply do the same things, perhaps to a different lot of people, takes over? ~~ I commend you to a leader in today's Spectator which addresses that precise question.

I am not attacking or opposing you here, Jim. I agree with all you say, up to the point of practicalities. But I am reminded by your assertions of the future Edward VIII meeting the unemployed in the 1930s and declaring, "Something must be done."

Again ~~ WHAT?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 12 - 02:27 PM

Jim.
"you sickos"
Please explain.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 02:22 AM

The real "Homs Horror" is that the world has stood by and watched while a war criminal has massacred his own people AND DONE NOTHING

Must you be told again Jim?
Russia and China have blocked every attempt to do something at UN.
Military action just can not be taken without a UN mandate.
Everything else that can be done, is being done.

Arming the rebels?
You and the Saudis in favour.
Everyone else (ie every government in the world except Saudi Arabia) are "sickos."
Go to war without UN backing, and risking miltary confrontation with Russia?
You and the Saudis in favour.
Everyone else "sickos."

You are not the only one who cares Jim.
The world's leaders are doing what they can, but have no solution to offer.
Neither have I.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 12 - 12:42 PM

I am with US and opposed to Russia and China.
Are we in agreement at last Jim?
BBC today.
Meanwhile both China and Russia have reinforced their opposition to foreign intervention in Syria, as Russian President Vladimir Putin arrived in Beijing.

(Reuters) - The U.S. Treasury on Wednesday (today) warned Syria that more than 55 countries would seek to impose "maximum financial pressure" on President Bashar al-Assad's government in an effort to stop his regime's violence against Syrian people.

Addressing officials from Turkey, Japan and other countries, Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said he hoped that nations would soon join in taking appropriate actions against Assad's government including, if necessary, "Chapter 7" of the United Nations charter - a measure that could authorize the use of force.

Subject: RE: BS: Hama province horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 04:33 AM

My last post was made before the news broke of the latest horror.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 06:18 AM

"Are we in agreement at last Jim?"
Which bit in particular?
Do I agree that Assad should have been sold anti-riot equipment - nope.
Do I excuse Britain selling him military equipment - nope.
Do I think the Syrian people should not be trusted because of who they might put in Assad's place (and persecute Christians) "I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls" unquote - nope.
The pitiful 'sanctions', which were put into place reluctantly and long after the atrocities were takunderweigh have had no effect whatever - as you rightly point out - yet another massacre.
I repeat (you have not responded to my having pointed it out in the past - If there had been oil inlolved, Western forces would have been queuing up to invade, whatever the Russians and Chinese were doing and voting on at the UN
British politicians said as far back as 9th of February that they were not going to get involved (for the same reason you have given here - the Syrian people are not to be trusted to elect a govenment favourable to the West) For once, the politicians have told the truth and stood waving their arms and blustering while massacres have taken place and continue on an almost daily basis.
Nope - nothing there I can bring myself around to accept.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 07:41 AM

So Jim, you still refuse to criticise Russia and China for supplying all the armaments Assad could ever want, and blocking every attempt to take any action against Assad.
Assad is lucky to have so many friends like them, and you.

Do I excuse Britain selling him military equipment
No need Jim.
Britain never did.
Nor any anti riot gear.
What about the countries who do Jim?

British politicians said as far back as 9th of February that they were not going to get involved
Rubbish Jim.
The PM and the Foreign Sec. have done more than any other government to get something done.
I have posted much about it for your benefit.
You should read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 08:30 AM

Sometimes there is nothing to be done that won't make things worse.

The massacres that have taken place in Syria are a nightmare. But military intervention is virtually certain to cause far far more deaths, and even worse massacres can be expected in its wake.

In Libya, which was a far far less complicated situation, the number of people killed by the air war was far higher than the numbers killed in Gaddaffi's repression. It's not a good time for the Tuareg minority.

The Saudi regime isn't supplying arms to the insurgents because it beieves in democracy, or has any particular reluctance to carry out brutal repression itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 10:21 AM

I've continued to condemn the actions of China and Russia throughout this threed - please stop lying about something that is on record.
I see their actions as no better nor worse than the cynical self-interest of Britain, the US and all those who have stood by and watched the Syrian bloodbath because it is not in their political or economic interests to intervene.
"Britain never did."
It is a matter of record that Britain sold small-arms ammunition to Syria - an official British document included in a newspaper report carries that fact and you identified the sale as being 'only sniper bullets' - once again, please stop lying about something that is on record.
You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles.
"The PM and the Foreign Sec."
The British PM has just been on television and said that Assad should be exposed for what he is - no action, just empty rhetoric - again - now that'll have him quaking in his boots, won't it?
The Question Time debaters (with the exception of a stand up comedian) said exactly as you did - the Syrian people are not to be trusted to elect a govenment favourable to the West
Really not interested what the Saudis are doing or why - Britain and the US continue to do nothing and you continue to defend their disgustingly inhuman inaction.
And still no comment on ,"If there had been oil involved, Western forces would have been queuing up to invade, whatever the Russians and Chinese were doing and voting on at the UN"
Keep flying the flag boyo
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 12:36 PM

The news from Homs is bad. Hundreds killed in the last few days in that Syrian city alone. Government forces have used heavy weaponry, artillery and tanks to fire indiscriminately at civilian areas. More than 7,000 people are now estimated to have been killed in attempts to put down the uprising which kicked off last March.

The rebellion is part of the Arab Spring which has swept across the Middle East and North Africa, toppling autocratic rulers and giving hope that democracy could blossom across the region.

So it is profoundly depressing to learn that Northern Ireland-manufactured and exported military equipment is being used to against those who have risen up against the rule of President Bashir al-Assad.

Shorland armoured cars – sold by Shorts Bros to the Assad regime in the 1980s (the current President's father ruler for nearly thirty years before Bashir assumed power in 2000) – can be seen patrolling the streets of Homs, bristling with heavy automatic weapons mounted on gunports. Anti-government activists have posted videos and photographs online showing the Northern Ireland exported vehicles being used by both the Syrian army and police force to clear the streets of Homs and other towns across the country.


http://rightsni.org/2012/02/syria-northern-ireland-and-the-un-prep-com-on-the-arms-trade-treaty/

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 12:54 PM

I've continued to condemn the actions of China and Russia throughout this threed
Not true Jim.
You have never once criticised them for demanding that Assad remains in power.
Not once Jim.
Deny that?
You have never once criticised them for blocking action against Assad by the Security Council.
Not once Jim.
Deny that?
You have posted maybe one sentence criticising Russia for supplying the arms used for murdering all those defenceless people and children, but page after page of criticism of Britain for once, years ago, licensing the sale of a few bullets, but not actually supplying anything because Britain does not make that kind of bullet.
Maybe one sentence compared to pages worth.
Deny that Jim?

The British PM has just been on television and said that Assad should be exposed for what he is - no action, just empty rhetoric
Wrong Jim.
Plenty of action from British government.
Name any government that has done more.
Would you like me to list all the actions Britain has taken?
I will do it by PM because it is mostly already posted.

And still no comment on.....
Two comments.
Shite.
Bollocks.
If Assad had been up to his neck in oil the Security Council could still do nothing against the veto.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 01:10 PM

What you seem to be advocating, Jim, is that we should indulge in some good old-fashioned "gunboat diplomacy". I honestly can't see what else you could mean by "If there had been oil involved, Western forces would have been queuing up to invade".

Is that really what you would like to see?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 02:29 PM

Jim, you are Assad's friend.
You posted pages AGAINST those countries who, like Britain, seek his removal from office and power.
You criticise the lack of action but REFUSE to criticise those who block any action.
You only blame those countries who try to take action, and not those who prevent it.

Be clear Jim.
You say you believe in action against Assad.
Britain and US and other Western countries are with you.
Happy with that Jim?
Russia, China and Iran are against you.
Happy with that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 03:00 PM

"What you seem to be advocating, Jim, is that we should indulge in some good old-fashioned "gunboat diplomacy"
No Mike - I am advocating that the UN fulfil its 'Duty of Protection' towards a people who are in a process of being massacred.
Of course I wouldn't want anybody to invade anywhere (though both Britain and the US haven't been backward in doing so where their own interests are concerned - want a list?
I am asking that no more is done than was done in Libya - when your ward seemed to have no qualms as to which way a liberated people would vote one Gadaffi was overthrown.
Are you seriously suggesting that it is right to just stand by and watch while this slaughter is going on? I can give you a few hsitorical precedents where has been demanded if you want.
Maybe we should demand a news blackout so Assad can get on with what he's doing in private and the rest of us can all sleep easier in our beds.
My condemnation of what Russia and China are doing has been a blanket one - damn them all - remember?
This includes those who have done nothing but treat the whole affair as a spectator sport and done nothing - Britain, Ireland, the US.
AND I HAVE AT NO TIME SUGGESTED THAT A MURDEROUS DICTATOR SHOULD BE GIVEN EQUIPMENT TO ENABLE HIM TO CONTINUE MURDERING AND TORTURING HIS PEOPLE
"Even liberal democracies have to deal with riots.
Non-lethal crowd control techniques are preferrable to live rounds.
If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water.
It would not be such a crime to supply such things, compared to what Russia and China supplies." UNQUOTE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 03:18 PM

By the way Mike - I suppose you are aware that Russia's and China's excuse for taking the stance they are on Syria is identical to your argument - that it is wrong for any country to interfere in the internal affairs of another
Strange bedfellows - what?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 04:41 PM

By the way Mike - I suppose you are aware that Russia's and China's excuse for taking the stance they are on Syria is identical to your argument - that it is wrong for any country to interfere in the internal affairs of another

They will interfere in any country's affairs when it suits them.
They are lying hypocrites.
The real reason for their stance is their own self interest, and the suffering of the people counts for nothing.

So Jim, are you closer to their non intervention (other than arms supplying) stance, or US, UK and other Western countries who are trying to get Assad out of power?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 05:01 PM

One problem is the Libyan precedent, where a resolution authorising a no fly zone and an imposed ceasefire ceasefire, which was supported by Russia and China was used as a mechanism for legitimising an air war directed at regime change (which caused far more deaths than the previous repression had). That must greatly strengthen the elements within the Russian and Chinese governments which are opposed to any intervention.

For any outside intervention to avoid making things even worse in Syria would require quite extraordinary wisdom and skill, and can anyone seriously believe our governments are capable of exercising those qualities?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 05:14 PM

I have not said anything about its being wrong to interfere in internal affairs, Jim; but armed invasion, which you appeared to be advocating [if you weren't then show where I had misunderstood what I quoted back to you in my last post] is not precisely subsumed under that locution, is it?

I repeat ~ I do in many ways agree with your stance here; but UN intervention, which is the only kind of internal interference which would be acceptable, remains impossible due to the veto operated by Russia & China which the UN & its Security Councli have, by their constitution, no power to override. You know this perfectly well, but really do seem peculiarly reluctant to take that incontrovertible fact on board, and then proceed blame the UK for not flying in the face of it. I fear you sometimes remind me of that person on Koko's Little List in The Mikado, "who praises, with enthusiastic tone ··· every country but his own". What is it that makes you so contemptuous of your own nation, I wonder, Jim? I can't honestly say that it appears to me to be an admirable attitude.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 03:54 AM

"They will interfere in any country's affairs when it suits them."
So will (and has) Britain and the US - Viet Nam, Iraq... directly and indirectly involved in many wars since the end of WW2 - I seem to remember reading that it had been calculated that the US alone had been involved in at least 50 military and 'intelligence' interventions since the end of WW2 - that particular article was publishes at least 15 years ago - god alone knows what the score is now.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interventions_WBlumZ.html
They are all lying hypocrites, and ingoring or defending that fact puts you in that league as well.
I am fully aware of the difficulties that China's and Russia's veto
has imposed on the situation, but in perspective, the United States has used its veto power 83 times in the UN, primarily in defence of allies accused of violating international humanitarian law.
This is not just a matter of what is happening in Syria, it calls into question the role and future of the UN - if it can only stand by and watch as a war criminal massacres his people, what the **** is it there for?
And, as I have repeatedly said, the West would have no problem intervening if oil supplies (or revenge-taking for 9/11) were the issue, rather than the massacre of a few civilians!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 04:18 AM

I have repeatedly said, the West would have no problem intervening if oil supplies (or revenge-taking for 9/11) were the issue

Yes it would Jim.
A veto would still block military or other action.

So Jim, are you closer to Russia and China's stance to keep Assad in power, or US, UK and other Western countries who are trying to get Assad out of power, by peaceful transfer if possible?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 06:14 AM

"Jim, are you closer to Russia and China's stance to keep Assad in power"
Does your stupidity have no limits?
It is you alone on this thread who has proposed that Assad be given equipment to enable him to stay in power.
"Even liberal democracies have to deal with riots.
Non-lethal crowd control techniques are preferrable to live rounds.
If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water. It would not be such a crime to supply such things, compared to what Russia and China supplies." UNQUOTE
It is you who has attempted to cover up the sales of military equipment to what was already a known terrorist regime before all this started, and attempted to suppress discussion on it with a bullying attempt at "thread drift".
It is you who identified the nature of the equipment, claimed that it was unimportant - 'only' sniper bullets, claimed that the sale was too small to be worth mentioning, claimed that it was so long ago that it didn't matter, claimed that there was no sale, claimed that there was a sale, but it wasn't shipped, then returned to a claim that there was no sale in the first place - where do you stand on all this now Keith - you seem to have lost yourself?
You have never withdrawn your proposal that it would be acceptable to supply crowd control equipment to this murderous regime - do you still believe this to be the case?
Nobody is as close to the Russian, Chinese and Assad position as you are - it's all here in black and white.
I very much doubt that your overtaxed fairy godmother would bother his arse to defend your stupidity and viciousness
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 06:25 AM

Missed a bit
And it is you who has proposed that the Assad regime should continue because of what the Syrians might do to the Christians
"I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 06:42 AM

It is you alone on this thread who has proposed that Assad be given equipment to enable him to stay in power.

Not true Jim.
Russia China and Iran have actually supplied lethal weaponry used to keep him in power, and we both have deplored it.

China and Russia have stated that the mass murderer of children should stay in power, and given him the means to violently suppress his people.

UN, UK, USA, and other Western countries say he must go, peacefully if possible, and are working towards that end but frustrated by Russia and China.

On this issue we both are lined up with UK and the West against Russia and China.
Do not be ashamed.
We are the good guys on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 06:54 AM

Missed a bit.
And it is you who has proposed that the Assad regime should continue because of what the Syrians might do to the Christians
Lie.
I do fear for the minorities, but NEVER "proposed that the Assad regime should continue because of" that.
Never Jim.
Deny that?