BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 04:45 AM

"Why did yo need a whole screenful of text to say that Jim?"
Because I said much more than that Keith - I suggest you read it and answer the points
I would like to request that you either produce evidence of my supporting Russia in any shape or form or that they were ever "old Marxists or old Marxists' mates" or withdraw it - NOW
Had that been the case, surely it would be obvious, even to a bear of even your small intelligence that I would hardly defend a government that had betrayed "my Marxism"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 04:52 AM

Jim, I merely contrasted the pages and pages of bile against blameless Britain you have posted here, with your brief (2 lines?) condemnation of all those actually culpable.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 05:35 AM

No answer
I would like to request that you either produce evidence of my supporting Russia in any shape or form or that they were ever "old Marxists or old Marxists' mates" or withdraw it - NOW
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 05:52 AM

You support them by hardly ever criticising their involvement, while endlessly attacking Britain which has no guilt for the atrocities in Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 06:23 AM

Still no evidence whatever of your stupid and lying accusation which, even if it were vaguely true, does not make sense.
I WOULD LIKE TO REQUEST THAT YOU EITHER PRODUCE EVIDENCE OF MY SUPPORTING RUSSIA IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM OR THAT THEY WERE EVER "OLD MARXISTS OR OLD MARXISTS' MATES" OR WITHDRAW IT - NOW
Your constant repetitition of your "blameless Britain" does not begin to justify the fact that they sold bullets to a killer, but it does underline your stupidity.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 06:43 AM

You support them by hardly ever criticising their involvement in this evil, while endlessly attacking Britain which has no guilt for the atrocities in Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 07:07 AM

Jim,

You have previously, in many threads, attacked those of us who criticized the Palestinians BECAUSE WE DID NOT CRITICIZE ISRAEL for what YOU thought were their crimes.

Now we apply the SAME standard YOU applied to us TO YOU- AND YOU OBJECT.

What kind of scum is it that applies different rules to himself than he demands of others???

YOUR failure to criticize Iran, China , and Russia is sufficient proof FROM YOUR STANDARDS to convict you of supporting them.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 07:12 AM

You obviously have no proof of your statement, nor do you intend to withdraw it, let alone apologise for making such a stupidly illogical claim (I believe it was you who recently broke into a thread you were not part of to claim that I never apologised or withdrew statements I had mistakenly made).
You are a blatently liar and the stupidity of this particular lie (the idea that a "Marxist" would condone the actions of capitalist Russia) makes your lying self-evidently crude and self serving.
You obviously have no evidence and your accusation was to cover the support you are giving to despotic killers by covering up the fact that Britain has armed and continues to supply weapons to regimes who, in the words of Vince Cable, the Business Secretary in the coalition cabinet of David Cameron - what better authority ".....are not democratic and have bad human rights records".
Keep digging Keith - obviously this particular pit has no bottom.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 07:29 AM

You obviously have no proof of your statement

Your refusal to criticise those who support and supply the mass murderers,while endlessly, endlessly attacking and smearing a country with no involvement at all, is proof of your prejudice in favour of an ex-communist regime still run by a hard-line KGB man.

The Liberal Left and Centre Right tended not to flourish in the KGB.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 07:38 AM

"Your refusal to criticise those who support and supply the mass murderers,"
One more lie to add to the pile - I have repeadedly pointed out that I believe them all RUSSIA, CHINA, BRITAIN - whoever supplies arms to killers, to be mercenary death-dealers - refuse to make a distinction between mortars and sniper ammunition - you excuse one to defend Britain from having sold them
"The Liberal Left and Centre Right tended not to flourish in the KGB. "
meaning what - that I supported the KGB - you lying little shit?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 08:09 AM

More BBC.

On 10 January, a Russian cargo ship loaded with containers from the country's main arms exporter made an unscheduled stop at the port of Limassol in Cyprus, apparently forced from the sea by bad weather.

Port officials who boarded the ship discovered what was described as "dangerous cargo".

A well-placed source has confirmed to the BBC that it was carrying tons of ammunition destined for the Syrian security forces which stand accused of committing atrocities against their own people, killing and torturing thousands since the uprising began last year.

The ship was held for several hours at Limassol before being allowed to sail on, eventually reaching the Syrian port of Tartus a few days later.

This was just the latest consignment of arms and ammunition sent by Russia in support of the Assad government, a close ally with whom Moscow has maintained good relations for decades.

According to some estimates, 10% of Russia's global arms sales go to Syria, with current contracts estimated to be worth $1.5bn (£950m).

Besides ammunition, recent sales have included military training aircraft, air defence systems and anti-tank weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 08:18 AM

Irish Times.


THE UNITED Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights said yesterday she was appalled by the violence against civilians in Homs and called for urgent international action.

Navi Pillay also implicitly criticised Russia and China for vetoing an Arab and western move in the UN Security Council to get Syria's President Bashar al-Assad to quit.

"I am appalled by the Syrian government's wilful assault on the city of Homs, and its use of artillery and other heavy weaponry in what appear to be indiscriminate attacks on civilian areas in the city," Ms Pillay said in a statement. Ms Pillay, a former South African high court judge, said it was extremely urgent "for the international community to cut through the politics and take effective action to protect the civilian population".

She said the "virtual carte blanche" granted to Syria by the veto of the UN resolution "betrays the spirit and the word" of a 2005 global accord on collective action to protect civilians when their government was failing to do so.

Her statement came as both Russia and China continued to defend their stance. In Moscow, Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov said it was "not really the international community's business" to try, as he put it, to determine the outcome of a national dialogue between government and opposition in Syria.



China, meanwhile, hit back at its critics, notably British foreign secretary William Hague. It said his criticism of Beijing's veto was extremely irresponsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 09:01 AM

You see Jim, the BBC, The Irish Times, and every other news organ and agency, and everyone else here can discuss Syria and the complicity of Russia and China without pages and pages about Britain which is utterly innocent of the crimes in Syria, and is actually one of the good guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 12:54 PM

"Sniper bullets according to you and the other braindead." -Jim Carroll

Well no Christmas not exactly.

I listed NATO & Warsaw Pact ammunition and asked what weapons the Syrian Army might have that would use NATO ammunition

Neither of the types of pistol used by the Syrian Army can fire Standard NATO 9 x 19mm Parabellum so the only Standard NATO ammunition that would be of any use to them would be standard rifle (7.62 x 51mm) ammunition that could be used in the Austrian Steyr SSG69 rifle (Standard Bolt Action with a 5 round magazine) one of four types of rifle used by the Syrian Army and identified by Guest999.

The Steyr SSG69 was made as snipers weapon that used standard 7.62 x 51mm ammunition all the three other types of rifle (one - Russian Dragunov SVD semi-automatic 10 round magazine; one - Romanian PSL which is basically a copy of the Russian Dragunov semi-automatic 10 round magazine; one - Serbian Zastava M91 which surprise, surprise is basically a copy of the Russian Dragunov semi-automatic with a 10 round magazine) do use special "sniper bullets" they are 7.62 x 54R rounds, the standard Russian/Soviet/Warsaw round being 7.62 x 39mm

So the 7.62 x 51mm round is NOT a "sniper bullet" it is standard ammunition

The 7.62 x 54R is the oldest bullet still used by armed forces in the world (120 years old) since the advent of the AK-47 which replaced the Mosin-Nagant bolt action rifle the 7.62 x 54R was loaded (i.e. powder charged) for use as machine gun ammunition in four forms. The fifth form is the 7N1 a bullet made specifically for a sniper rifle.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 01:17 PM

So Jim-Lad,

As far as your original contention that Syrian civilians were being "slaughtered" by British weapons in Homs, what we have so far is this:

1: Britain has sold no weapons to Syria

2: The licence issued to a private arms dealer in 2009 to sell small arms ammunition (or small arms "arms", as you prefer it) was revoked in good time and there is no evidence that ANY ammunition was ever delivered at all.

3: The vast bulk of those killed in Syria since 6th May 2011 have been killed by shells fired from tanks, artillery, mortar rounds, RPG-7s and small arms predominantly AK-47 Assault Rifles. Most of which are supplied by Russia or China.

As to why the UN is reluctant to act? There can be no UN Security Council Resolution to mandate action as happened in the case of Libya due to Russian and Chinese use of their veto powers.

End result Assad and his regime will collapse, but it will be a long and bloody struggle to finally get what the Syrian people want.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: kendall
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 09:02 PM

Don't buy anything made in China. Boycott Vodka.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 04:12 AM

"Britain has sold no weapons to Syria..... et al"
As this comes with no proof whatever we can only assume it to be the self-serving guesswork of a gun-toting perv who gets it off on hurling obscenities at the dead and/or a feeble minded racist who tells lies.
This shipment of ammunition is shrouded in mystery, with virtually no information on it other than an official acknowledgement of its existance and the fact that it was granted a licence - indicating that Britain is not particularly proud of who it sells arms to (certainly not as proud as the two boyos here who have expended a fair amoung to energy defending the shipment and claiming it to be 'harmless').
Whatever it was, it should never have been sold to a notoriously murderous regime which is possibly now using it to slaughter demonstrators, along with other equipment supplied by Russia and China - as I have said repeatedly, there is nothing to choose between any of them as arms suppliers other than the type of weapons and equipment supplied.
In spite of mammoth efforts on Keith's part to steer clear of the consequences of all this, which will remain long after the slaughter has stopped in Syria - the real question is - who should any arms producing power sell its products to - Britain is third in the world in that arms trade.
Some facts about the Arab Spring:
It began in Tunisia in December 2010.
Egypt joined in in January 2011 (Britain sold £6m worth of arms to Egypt in 2009 and £27m worth in 2010)
Libya became involved in February:
"Ministers approved the export of sniper rifles, bullets, tear gas and other 'crowd control' ammunition to Tripoli shortly before the murderous dictator ordered his military to crush a pro-democracy uprising...
This meant that not only were demonstrators being put down by equipment supplied by Britain, but also Libyan Government forces and rebels were killing each other with weapons from the same source.

"Mr Cameron said he could not understand why anyone would oppose his attempts to boost British defence sales in such a volatile region"
Daily Mail
In February last year David Cameron took part in an arms fair designed to sell weapons to customers such as Bahrain, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia... and other 'democracies!! (Bahrain was one of the early targets of Arab Spring demonstrators)
As Vince Cable said "We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records. We do business with repressive governments and there's no denying that".
BRITAN SELLS ARMS TO REGIMES THAT KILL AND TORTURE THEIR OWN PEOPLE -AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO WHILE APPEASERS OF SUCH BEHAVIOUR LIE AND JUSTIFY TO COVER THE FACTS UP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 05:48 AM

Your original contention Christmas was that Syrian civilians were being "slaughtered" by British weapons in Homs.

Simple fact of the matter is that they are not being "slaughtered" by British weapons, they are not even being "slaughtered" by British ammunition.

They are being "slaughtered" by Russian and Chinese weapons and ammunition and it is those two countries who ARE selling Assad's regime the means to butcher his own people, and it is those two countries who are currently blocking any international attempt to stop the slaughter.

Keen on trivia are you Christmas? Well here is a "little" statistic for you - For every 60 people toddling around this earth there is 1 AK-47 Assault rifle - Now tell me who makes them - certainly not the British.

"The AK series of weapons have been produced in greater numbers than any other firearm and have been used in conflicts all over the world."

Thought this bit was absolutely priceless:

"Libyan Government forces and rebels were killing each other with weapons from the same source."

A number of sources actually Jim-Lad and again mostly Russian (AK-47's, RPG-7's seem to be the weapons of choice in almost every trouble spot on the planet)

The next is classic "Jim Carroll Bullshit:

"indicating that Britain is not particularly proud of who it sells arms to (certainly not as proud as the two boyos here who have expended a fair amoung to energy defending the shipment and claiming it to be 'harmless')."

So far in the entire length of this thread I have seen not one single instance of ANYONE:

a) Defending the shipment OR b) claiming that it was harmless

But there again Jim I guess it is just the way you read things and interpret them. I can recall on the subject of the separation of Northern Ireland you claimed to know better what one of the participants at the talks said than that person himself.

Britain third in the sale of arms in the world? I think it is Fifth behind the USA; Russia; Germany & France. China is sixth, but in the top six you have ALL permanent members of the UN Security Council. But that is not the way Christmas presents it:

BRITAN SELLS ARMS TO REGIMES THAT KILL AND TORTURE THEIR OWN PEOPLE -AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO WHILE APPEASERS OF SUCH BEHAVIOUR LIE AND JUSTIFY TO COVER THE FACTS UP

Truth is lots of countries who manufacture arms do that Christmas (1,135 manufacturers in 98 countries around the world as a matter of fact), what appeasers? In this particular instance that you referred to the British Government revoked the export licence. What cover up?

First death in Syria occurred on 6th May 2011 and there has been a mandatory EU arms embargo (2011/273/CFSP) on sales to Syria since 9th May 2011.

So what was your contention again Christmas:

"That Syrian civilians were currently (February 2012) being "slaughtered" by British weapons in Homs."

Apologies but I must ask the obvious question - Just HOW exactly are they managing to do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 08:36 AM

Right - no back-up evidence; that seems to have established that Terrytoon's list was an invention of Dumber and/or Dumbest
"That Syrian civilians were currently (February 2012) being "slaughtered" by British weapons in Homs."
I forgot - sniper bullets are not weapons (just as white phosphoros is not chemical, or Agent Orange is only week-killer - just "weapon facilitators" or "missiles" maybe - I'll try to remember that in future - I'm sure it will give comfort to the mother who saw her baby shot though the head.
"they are not even being "slaughtered" by British ammunition."
You seem to have an unusually disturbing knowledge of Syrian armory - a letter from a friend in high places, maybe - oh, I forgot, you're one of those penis-substitute shooters, aren't you?
"Thought this bit was absolutely priceless:"
Didn't suggest a single source, but there is a possibility (probability at the beggining of the suppression) that the ammunition used could have been British - or, as with Syria, do you know something we don't?
both sides were using British supplied weapons
"the UK Government had approved the export of goods including tear gas and crowd control ammunition and sniper rifles to Bahrain and Libya".
"Ministers approved the export of sniper rifles, bullets, tear gas and other 'crowd control' ammunition to Tripoli shortly before the murderous dictator ordered his military to crush a pro-democracy uprising."
"BRITAIN is secretly arming Libyan rebels with missiles and rocket ¬launchers to help defeat Colonel Gaddafi, it was claimed last night."
Hilarious!!!!!
"Truth is lots of countries who manufacture arms do that"
Oh, that's all right then - let's sell some more to Denis Mugabe!
"claiming it to be 'harmless').""
Keith's "that would be sniper bullets" was an explanation for Britain having sold small arms ammunition to Syria, and your claiming that the Syrians paid so much for ammunition that could not be used by their military.....
As you say, "classic".
"Fifth behind the USA; Russia; Germany & France."
Depends which particular chart you refer to - ranges between second and fifth over all.
"I can recall on the subject of the separation of Northern Ireland"
Good job Keithie isn't here to whinge about "thread drift
You are now coming over as a 'gun-bore' not unsimilar to a 'wine-bore' or a 'golf bore' - do you go to bed in your camouflage jacket?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 11:18 AM

Ammunition, Christmas, small arms ammunition.

The "sniper" bullets were your spin not mine, because they are not "sniper" rounds at all just standard rifle ammunition. So if they are in your eyes classified as "sniper" bullets then ALL bullets are "sniper" bullets - fits in nicely with your equally ludicrous "small arms arms" thing.

"White Phosphorus"?? According to the Convention on certain Conventional Weapons and the Chemical Weapons Convention - neither list White Phosphorus as a Chemical Weapon - I will take their word for it (After all just who the fuck is Jim Carroll to tell the world anything)

"Agent Orange" - classified as a defoliant not a Chemical Weapon.

"they are not even being "slaughtered" by British ammunition."

Where is your proof that they are being slaughtered by British ammunition - you have offered nothing apart from newspaper articles referring to the fact that a licence had been granted, not that anything had actually been sold, or delivered.

"there is a possibility (probability at the beggining of the suppression) that the ammunition used could have been British - or, as with Syria, do you know something we don't?
both sides were using British supplied weapons"

What's with the "as with Syria"??? I am only talking about Syria where you claim that the British (as in the British Government) sold weapons to Assad's Regime.

A private individual (NOT the British Government) obtained an export licence (from the British Government) to sell £30,000 worth of small arms ammunition to Syria in 2009. There is no evidence or proof that those rounds were ever delivered.

The standing Army of Syria numbers some 220,000 men and at anytime there are also 300,000 reserves and those doing "national service". I know that your knowledge of military matters may be a bit slight (others might say non-existent) but do you suppose that any of the 220,000 regulars or any of the 300,000 reservists + conscripts who have cycled through the Syrian Army system since 2009 were ever given any weapons training? Do you suppose that that training involved any "live-firing"?

£30,000 would buy you about 111,000 rounds which would over two years work out at a total range allowance of 4,583 rounds per month or 153 per day and you are training and keeping current some 520,000 men. The vast majority would not use the 7.62 NATO stuff because Russia sells them their guns (not Britain)and when all said and done the vast majority of them will not be trained as snipers. Having said that this is what is said about training as a military sniper:

"Military sniper training aims to teach a high degree of proficiency in camouflage and concealment, stalking, observation and map reading as well as precision marksmanship under various operational conditions. Trainees typically shoot thousands of rounds over a number of weeks, while learning these core skills."

So I would say that it would be highly unlikely (improbable) that any of the £30,000 worth of ammunition bought (if indeed it ever was) two years ago would still be available.

Another question for you Christmas, it is a simple matter of commonsense and logic:
The situation is that you are going to go into action as a sniper in the Syrian Army you basically have a choice of two weapons:

Rifle No.1:
Dragunov semi-automatic (self-loading) 10 shot magazine, that fires ammunition that at a pinch you could re-supply from any tank, armoured personnel carrier or machine gunner in the Syrian Army. If your own rifle gets damaged you can pick up any one of two other types which are almost identical and carry on.

Rifle No.2:
Steyr SSG69 bolt-action (i.e. you have to manually load after each shot) 5 shot magazine, that fires what can only be considered rather unique ammunition for the Syrian Army. Your supply of ammunition is limited to what you can personally carry. If your rifle gets damaged - you are stuffed.

Come on Christmas tell us what your weapon of choice would be.

What has what Britain has sold to Bahrain and Libya got to do with Syrians being "slaughtered" in Homs? Nothing, unless of course you are saying that the Libyans and the Government of Bahrain are arming Assad? Which we know they are not.

Who is "Denis Mugabe"?? and why should we sell anything, harmless or otherwise, to him??

"and your claiming that the Syrians paid so much for ammunition that could not be used by their military....."

Well no Christmas Pudding I didn't claim that, I asked the question "What use NATO ammunition would be to the Syrians" and either pdq or Guest999 answered it stating that the Syrians had bought Steyr SSG69 rifles. All quite logical really if you don't know something ask a question - But please note Christmas for that system to work you have to listen to the answer using those things on either side of your head that you appear only to use to help keep your spectacles in place and your hat from falling over your eyes.

Britain comes third in the league table relating to defence budgets
Britain comes fifth in the league table relating to arms exports

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 11:57 AM

To understand, there are snipers and there are snipers. If I was doing it long-distance, I'd want to load my own shells or have them made with EXACTLY the same load (powder and projectile) for every round. For a few hundred yards, commercial stuff is fine. And commercial stuff is all over the place. None of these so-called snipers are doing precision work. What are being referred to as snipers are simply assholes with shit for training and the morals of a cat in heat, auto or semi-automatic weapons and a so-called target-rich environment. They are murderers, ones who would and will fold when they meet aggressive troops, regular or irregular. imo

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 12:01 PM

"The "sniper" bullets were your spin not mine,"
Nope - they were Keith's - you took it up.
"According to the Convention...."
Apologist shit for the use chmiicals on people - who gives a toss wo classifies it as want, the photographs of the victims show horrific burns, paricularly on children - hiding behind semantics allows their continued use on civilians - as in Fallujah.
"Agent Orange" - classified as a defoliant not a Chemical Weapon.
A carcogenic spray that was designed to starve the VietNames into submission, but ended up killing the airmen who dropped if - mealy-mothed semantics again.
"I know that your knowledge of military matters may be a bit slight "
Pompous weekend soldier - boring us with your 'knowledge' again -save it for the pub!
"Who is "Denis Mugabe"??" - Zimbabwean dictator amed by Britain - surely you're not reduced to typos?
All else is a pompous display of suoerficial knowledge avoiding the real point - Britain has armed dictators and continues to do so.
It really doesnt matter how long the ammunition sold to Syria lasted five minutes or five years - selling lethal toys to vicious regimes kills innocent people and that is what you are supporting - never mind; the other braindead will be back soon to give you a hand.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 01:03 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 01:23 PM

Weedkiller
"The TCDD found in Agent Orange is thought to be harmful to man. In laboratory tests on animals, TCDD has caused a wide variety of diseases, many of them fatal. TCDD is not found in nature, but rather is a man-made and always unwanted byproduct of the chemical manufacturing process. The Agent Orange used in Vietnam was later found to be extremely contaminated with TCDD."

White phospherus
From The Guardian
Fresh evidence of the firing of white phosphorus weapons by Israeli forces in Gaza has emerged from witnesses heard by the Guardian and first hand accounts by human rights groups of their use against civilians.
Graphic descriptions of attacks by Israeli forces near the Gaza town of Khan Younis are contained in footage shot by Fida Qishta for the International Solidarity Movement and obtained by the Guardian.
A woman described how on Tuesday Israeli forces "started to fire phosphorus bombs against the people, of course, they are civilians ..."
A man added: "A fire broke out and we have to leave out. Fires broke out on the top of the houses. We all jumped out with our women and daughters put off the fire. They were doing that, to help the special forces to occupy the houses. after we put off the fires, they started to shoot towards us. Then they started to raze the houses".
He said the fires were caused by phosphorus bombs and missiles.
Israeli artillery also fired white phosphorus shells at Gaza City, Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch, said yesterday.
Three white phosphorus shells were fired at the UN Relief and Works Agency in Gaza City on Thursday, according to people there.
Phosphorus shells burst in the air billowing white smoke before dropping the phosphate shell. Each shell contain more than 100 wavers which, when ignited, pump out smoke for about 10 minutes.
Contact with the shell remnants cause severe burns, sometimes burning the skin to the bone, consistent with descriptions by Ahmed Almi, the Egyptian doctor at the Al-Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis after attacks last Tuesday. Almi said after an hour the entire body of one victim was burned.
Chemicals in smoke produced by white phosphorus shells and burning chemical particles can cause severe respiratory problems.
According to the report from the International Solidarity Movement, many patients at the Khan Younis hospital were suffering from serious breathing difficulties after inhaling smoke.
The use of white phosphorous as a weapon – as opposed to its use as an obscurant and infrared blocking smoke screen – is banned by the Third Convention on Conventional Weapons which covers the use of incendiary devices. Though Israel is not a signatory to the convention, its military manuals reflect the restrictions on its use in that convention.
Instead of producing high velocity burning fragments like conventional white phosphorus weapons used to in the past, M825A1 rounds of the kind identified as being fired by Israeli forces produce what he called a "series of large slower burning wedges which fall from the sky", said Neil Gibson, technical adviser to Jane's Missiles and Rockets.
Israel's use of heavy artillery in residential areas of Gaza City violates the prohibition under the laws of war against indiscriminate attacks and should be stopped immediately, Human Rights Watch said yesterday.
"Firing 155mm shells into the center of Gaza City, whatever the target, will likely cause horrific civilian casualties," Garlasco said.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 01:35 PM

ROBERT Mugabe - You pillock

"It really doesnt matter how long the ammunition sold to Syria lasted"

F''kin well does if you are trying to tell us that a small amount of ammunition that might have been "bought" two years ago is currently being used to kill people today when it was sold to a country whose army is 220,000 strong.

So hidden in amongst all that froth:

NO WEAPONS SOLD TO SYRIA BY BRITAIN

NO PROOF WHATSOEVER THAT BULLETS REPORTEDLY SOLD SUBJECT TO A BRITISH EXPORT LICENCE WERE EVER DELIVERED

NO PROOF WHATSOEVER THAT THAT AMMUNITION IS CURRENTLY BEING USED TO KILL ANYONE IN HOMS

"Apologist shit" - "Mealy-mouthed semantics"? Not at all Christmas that is how those responsible for defining and classifying weapons have called it on behalf of a whole rake of international organisations and courts - I accept their classification and their rulings, were they to change them tomorrow I would accept those immediately.

Typos? Oh you mean shit like:

chmiicals
wo
paricularly
carcogenic
VietNames
dropped if
amed by Britain
suoerficial

8 errors in 14 lines - You really must do better Christmas

I have supported the British Arms Industry where and when?
I have supported the activities of dictators attacking and killing their own people where and when?

I will tell what I have done on this thread - ripped apart the contention made purely from personal bias and bigotry that British weapons sold by the British Government to Syria were killing civilians in Homs.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 02:04 PM

"I will tell what I have done on this thread.."
No you haven't - you've given us a display of what we used to call "the Territorial Tommies on parade" with a few phrases picked up from shooter magazines.
Now you appear to have fallen back on a few minor errors and typos
And your chemical weapons and "weedkiller"......??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 03:02 PM

Dioxin, produced by Monsanto, has also been used by Canada's DND, Ontario Hydro (I saw a few miles of orange trees along power lines) and I've read the stories of women who bore children with deformities after being exposed to it in British Columbia.

It is a herbicide that has detrimental effects on humans and other living things. While it is difficult to perceive it as a chemical weapon, it is still nasty stuff. For chemical weapons to be effective in battlefield conditions, they have to act fairly quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 03:28 PM

"While it is difficult to perceive it as a chemical weapon,"
Would agree to a point, but not when you're dealing with a "kill by the manual" toerag merchant, as I believe we are here.
Jim Carroll

Agent Orange
Vietnam has reported that 4.8 million Vietnamese were exposed to Agent Orange, and that an estimated 400,000 people were killed and another 500,000 children have been born with birth defects attributed to either their exposure or their parent's or grandparent's exposure to Agent Orange.
The Vietnamese were not the only people affected by this herbicide during the Vietnam Conflict: American soldiers were exposed to Agent Orange during their service; Canadian soldiers were exposed to Agent Orange when it was tested during the late 60s at the Canadian Forces Base Gagetown in New Brunswick.

Effects on Vietnam
The Vietnamese who were exposed to Agent Orange have reported:
-- skin diseases
-- cancer
-- blindness
-- paralysis
-- muscular disorders
-- skeletal disorders
-- significant weakness

Those exposed to Agent Orange have had children with birth defects such as:
-- extra fingers and toes
-- cleft palates
-- hernias
-- mental disabilities

Effects on Veterans
The United States Department of Veteran Affairs have identified the following diseases as being associated with exposure to Agent Orange:
-- Acute and Subacute Transient Peripheral Neuropathy
-- AL Amyloidosis
-- Chloracne
-- Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia
-- Diabetes Mellitus (Type 2)
-- Hodgkin's Disease
-- Multiple Myeloma
-- Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma
-- Porphyria Cutanea Tarda
-- Prostate Cancer
-- Respiratory Cancers
-- Soft Tissue Sarcoma (other than Osteosarcoma, Chondrosarcoma, Kaposi's sarcoma, or Mesothelioma)
Birth defects have also been identified among the veteran's children. Spina bifida seems to be the most common defect; however, according to the Department of Veteran Affairs, veterans have had children with other birth defects which have been attributed to Agent Orange exposure.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 03:02 AM

"a "kill by the manual" toerag merchant"

No Christmas, just someone calling you on some the ludicrously inaccurate statements you have been making.

Agent Orange a chemical weapon? No more so than DDT and the man who invented that was given the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1948. I agree with Guest999's post nasty stuff the use of which has long since been discontinued. DDT on the other hand which is just as nasty is still used widely as it protects human life from the greatest killer on the planet - Malaria.

"you've given us a display of what we used to call "the Territorial Tommies on parade" with a few phrases picked up from shooter magazines."

Really?? Not when it comes to the Steyr-Mannlicher SSG69 Christmas I own one, I have had it for years and apart from its weight it is a superb hunting rifle, that has always kept my freezer full.

No typos this time Christmas - but considering that 99.9% of your last post was edited cut-n-paste you still rank a D minus - you really should submit more original work and try harder.

Getting back to the subject in hand (i.e. more inaccurate, incorrect and totally unsubstantiated ravings of yours):

NO WEAPONS SOLD TO SYRIA BY BRITAIN

NO PROOF WHATSOEVER THAT BULLETS REPORTEDLY SOLD SUBJECT TO A BRITISH EXPORT LICENCE IN 2009 WERE EVER IN FACT DELIVERED

NO PROOF WHATSOEVER THAT THAT AMMUNITION IS CURRENTLY BEING USED TO KILL ANYONE IN HOMS.

PS: Give my regards to Denis Mugabe next time you see him Christmas

Attention to detail Christmas - Attention to detail.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 04:09 AM

"No more so than DDT"
You've just had a list of exactly what your "DDT" does - used on Third World peasants - men, women and children - and backfired on the deliverers, and you continue to downgrade its effects to justify its use on human beings, just as you do with sniper bullets.
"Not when it comes to the Steyr-Mannlicher SSG69 Christmas I own one,"
Oh dear - boys with toys - you actually own a penis substitute - and you got it for Christmas, you say - you couldn't make you up - you're a caricature!
"No typos this time....."
Small -minded as well as a foul-mouthed necrophobe thug - and you say they allow you to carry a gun.... oh dear!
"NO PROOF WHATSOEVER THAT BULLETS....."
No proof needed - the fact that ammunition could be sold by a British firm (it's on record) and given a licence by Britain (that's on record too), to be sent to a country with the human rights record such as Syria's says all that is needed to be said.
"Give my regards to Denis Mugabe next time you see him Christmas"
Still trying to fill the gaps in your argument with trivia - give him your own regards http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dennis-mugabe/27/8/730
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 04:36 AM

....and the licence was revoked.
Jim, please respect the fact that this thread is about the ongoing tragedy in Syria.
The arms trade, Britain's record, Israel, Iraq, Zimbabwe, classification of munitions, etc. are all worthy of discussion, but not here please.

Your hatred of Britain is in danger of becoming a deranged obsession.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 04:50 AM

"Your hatred of Britain is in danger of becoming a deranged obsession. "
And your supra-nationalism is likely to get you identified as a fascist.
I used Agent Orange as an example of where Benny the Bullet had attempted to neutralise weapons - as you both have done here in order to let Britain off the hook for licencing weapons to a despotic country - I used the example of selling to Mugabe's Zimbawe as an example of where Britain had sold to dictators before.
I was not intending pursuing it- braindead made an issue of my mix-up in the Mugabe family - finis.
As you have consistently attempted to divert this thread to Palesting - please don't tell me that I can't discuss British arms sales to murderous thug - perfectly in line with the topic in hand
Mind your own business (again) you may have started this thread but you don't own it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 06:13 AM

More time now:
Your description of criticism of Britain as being " a deranged obsession" is spooky in the extreme, on par with "my country right or wrong" and "Deutschland uber alles" - in fact "a deranged obsession" in itself.
You, quite laudably, opened a thread on the attacks on the Syrian people using weapons supplied by Russia and China - nothing wrong with that.
Despite the FACT that Britain has issued a licence for the sale of military equipment (small missiles - as you don't like "weapons") to Syria - you have consistently cried "foul" and attempted to defend that sale and block any discussion on it.
At the same time as Gadaffi opened fire on the Libyan people and was opposing demonstrations with weapons supplied by Britain, among others - within weeks of the start of the Arab Spring demonstrations - David Cameron was hosting an arms fair aimed at selling weapons to countries in the same part of the world, ruled by Assad-like leaders. This makes Britain one of the armorours in this ongoing conflict and well within the bounds of this discussion.
Attempts to block discussion on Britain's role in this conflict is, to say the least, bizarrely nationalist to the extent of mindless jingoism.
As far as I am concerned it is not just the right but the responsibity of all Britons to put a check on a government that sells weapons to killers and potential killers. Failing to do so, or supporting their murderously mercenary behaviour makes those that do accomplices - the last time this happened on a grand scale there were 6,000,000 consequences.
Don't you dare attempt to tell us what we can and can't discuss on a thread about supplying weapons to a dictator.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 06:53 AM

"You've just had a list of exactly what your "DDT" does - used on Third World peasants - men, women and children - and backfired on the deliverers, and you continue to downgrade its effects to justify its use on human beings, just as you do with sniper bullets."

Corrections to the above:

"You've just had a list of exactly what your "DDT" does"

Well no Christmas, I haven't. What you gave us was a list of what Agent Orange does - Attention to detail remember.

"and you continue to downgrade its effects to justify its use on human beings, just as you do with sniper bullets."

Really?? Well if I have done that then you will have no trouble whatsoever in providing us all with an example of me downgrading the effects of either Agent Orange or bullets fired by a sniper. Although I must confess I will not be holding my breath, there are none to be found and you just cannot be arsed to back-up and substantiate the wildly inaccurate accusations you throw around.

Oh by the way is it Denis or Dennis-Mugabe? You seem a little uncertain - Is that your lack of grasp of fact or detail showing itself again? Irrespective of whatever that man's name happens to be - the dictator you were obviously but inaccurately attempting to refer to was Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe.

See who supplies Dictator Mugabe with Weapons

See some familiar names there Christmas?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 07:07 AM

"You've just had a list of exactly what your "DDT" does"
Oh dear Two-Gun - a missed exclamation mark what a saddo!
"What you gave us was a list of what Agent Orange does"
Which you equated with DDT "No more so than DDT"
"with an example of me downgrading the effects of either Agent Orange"
By equatiing it with DDT you downgrade it - unless you can show that DDT has the effects as described above.
Earlier you attempted to downgrade Agent Orange as used in Viet Nam as 'weedkiller' as a defence for its use.
"Oh by the way is it Denis or Dennis-Mugabe"
Fuck off you small minded weasle.
"See some familiar names there Christmas? "
Meaning what exactly - if you are trying to present me as a supporter of any of those countries mentioned, please specify and present evidence of my having done so

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 07:36 AM

the FACT that Britain has issued a licence for the sale of military equipment (small missiles - as you don't like "weapons") to Syria
No, a small amount of small arms ammunition, which then revoked, and not British made, and unlikely to have ever been supplied.

Where is the pro-rata criticism for Russia and China Jim?
Not so obsessive about them are you.

As you have consistently attempted to divert this thread to Palesting
No Jim, that was you too.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 09:11 AM

You're kinda losing it here Christmas my little plum-puddin

Agent Orange - defoliant
DDT - insecticide
Both nasty
At no time at all have I ever advocated, supported or justified the use of either against humans
But the fact is neither are regarded as being "Chemical Weapons", and that was your statement wasn't it? That Agent Orange was a Chemical Weapon (Over forty years since it was last used).

Denis Mugabe, Dennis-Mugabe, if you are talking about the current President of Zimbabwe then at least have the courtesy of getting his name right or refer to him by his real title "Murdering Marxist Twat".

"if you are trying to present me as a supporter of any of those countries mentioned, please specify and present evidence of my having done so"

You seem to have no problem misrepresenting others Christmas, so why the objections when you THINK that someone has done the same to you - I haven't as a matter of fact. But it will be a cold day in hell before you pay any attention to facts.

No, I supplied the link to show who it is that supplies weapons to the murdering dictators you keeping ranting on about with such righteous indignation, and guess what? The vast bulk of their arsenals seem to come from the same sources Russia and China. Do you hammer on about them? No you do not.

My point of contention with you on this thread was that you made the statement that weapons supplied to Assad's regime in Syria by the British Government were killing Syrian civilians in Homs. Having investigated that claim we now know that it is patently untrue and totally groundless. You appear to have a penchant for believing myths and lies even when they have been proven to be myths and lies - Now that is what I would call sad Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 12:24 AM

"By equatiing it with DDT you downgrade it - unless you can show that DDT has the effects as described above."

Its all here Christmas all you had to do was Google "DDT" - and remember the use of this stuff was much more wider spread in time and area than Agent Orange ever was and that whereas Agent Orange has not been used for 40 years this stuff is still used widely today.

Effects on human health

Potential mechanisms of action on humans are genotoxicity and endocrine disruption. DDT may be directly genotoxic, but may also induce enzymes to produce other genotoxic intermediates and DNA adducts. It is an endocrine disruptor; The DDT metabolite DDE acts as an antiandrogen (but not as an estrogen). p,p'-DDT, DDT's main component, has little or no androgenic or estrogenic activity. Minor component o,p'-DDT has weak estrogenic activity.

Acute toxicity
DDT is classified as "moderately toxic" by the United States National Toxicology Program (NTP) and "moderately hazardous" by the World Health Organization (WHO), based on the rat oral LD50 of 113 mg/kg. DDT has on rare occasions been administered orally as a treatment for barbiturate poisoning.

Chronic toxicity

Diabetes
DDT and DDE have been linked to diabetes. A number of studies from the US, Canada, and Sweden have found that the prevalence of the disease in a population increases with serum DDT or DDE levels.

Developmental toxicity
DDT and DDE, like other organochlorines, have been shown to have xenoestrogenic activity, meaning they are chemically similar enough to estrogens to trigger hormonal responses in animals. This endocrine disrupting activity has been observed in mice and rat toxicological studies, and available epidemiological evidence indicates that these effects may be occurring in humans as a result of DDT exposure. The US Environmental Protection Agency states that DDT exposure damages the reproductive system and reduces reproductive success. These effects may cause developmental and reproductive toxicity:

- A review article in The Lancet states, "research has shown that exposure to DDT at amounts that would be needed in malaria control might cause preterm birth and early weaning ... toxicological evidence shows endocrine-disrupting properties; human data also indicate possible disruption in semen quality, menstruation, gestational length, and duration of lactation."

- Human epidemiological studies suggest that exposure is a risk factor for premature birth and low birth weight, and may harm a mother's ability to breast feed. Some 21st century researchers argue that these effects may increase infant deaths, offsetting any anti-malarial benefits. A 2008 study, however, failed to confirm the association between exposure and difficulty breastfeeding.

- Several recent studies demonstrate a link between in utero exposure to DDT or DDE and developmental neurotoxicity in humans. For example, a 2006 University of California, Berkeley study suggests that children exposed while in the womb have a greater chance of development problems, and other studies have found that even low levels of DDT or DDE in umbilical cord serum at birth are associated with decreased attention at infancy and decreased cognitive skills at 4 years of age. Similarly, Mexican researchers have linked first trimester DDE exposure to retarded psychomotor development.

- Other studies document decreases in semen quality among men with high exposures (generally from IRS).

- Studies generally find that high blood DDT or DDE levels do not increase time to pregnancy (TTP.) There is some evidence that the daughters of highly exposed women may have more difficulty getting pregnant (i.e. increased TTP).

- DDT is associated with early pregnancy loss, a type of miscarriage. A prospective cohort study of Chinese textile workers found "a positive, monotonic, exposure-response association between preconception serum total DDT and the risk of subsequent early pregnancy losses." The median serum DDE level of study group was lower than that typically observed in women living in homes sprayed with DDT.

- A Japanese study of congenital hypothyroidism concluded that in utero DDT exposure may affect thyroid hormone levels and "play an important role in the incidence and/or causation of cretinism."[69] Other studies have also found the DDT or DDE interfere with proper thyroid function.

Other
Occupational exposure in agriculture and malaria control has been linked to neurological problems (i.e. Parkinsons) and asthma.

Carcinogenicity
DDT is suspected to cause cancer. The NTP classifies it as "reasonably anticipated to be a carcinogen," the International Agency for Research on Cancer classifies it as a "possible" human carcinogen, and the EPA classifies DDT, DDE, and DDD as class B2 "probable" carcinogens. These evaluations are based mainly on the results of animal studies.
There is evidence from epidemiological studies (i.e. studies in human populations) that indicates that DDT causes cancers of the liver, pancreas and breast. There is mixed evidence that it contributes to leukemia, lymphoma and testicular cancer. Other epidemiological studies suggest that DDT/DDE does not cause multiple myeloma, or cancers of the prostate, endometrium, rectum, lung, bladder, or stomach.

Breast cancer
The question of whether DDT or DDE are risk factors of breast cancer has been repeatedly studied. While individual studies conflict, the most recent reviews of all the evidence conclude that pre-puberty exposure increases the risk of subsequent breast cancer. Until recently, almost all studies measured DDT or DDE blood levels at the time of breast cancer diagnosis or after. This study design has been criticized, since the levels at diagnosis do not necessarily correspond to levels when the cancer started. Taken as a whole such studies "do not support the hypothesis that exposure to DDT is an important risk factor for breast cancer." The studies of this design have been extensively reviewed.

In contrast, a study published in 2007 strongly associated early exposure (the p,p'- isomer) and breast cancer later in life. Unlike previous studies, this prospective cohort study collected blood samples from young mothers in the 1960s while DDT was still in use, and their breast cancer status was then monitored over the years. In addition to suggesting that the p,p'- isomer is the more significant risk factor, the study also suggests that the timing of exposure is critical. For the subset of women born more than 14 years before agricultural use, there was no association between DDT and breast cancer. However, for younger women—exposed earlier in life—the third who were exposed most to p,p'-DDT had a fivefold increase in breast cancer incidence over the least exposed third, after correcting for the protective effect of o,p'-DDT. These results are supported by animal studies.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 01:05 PM

And the latest obscenity from these two while I've been away?.
"Agent Orange" - classified as a defoliant not a Chemical Weapon."
You have a list of the effects of Agent Orange - if you don't agree with it - argue with the American servicemen who ruturnd home with those effecrts
Chewing gum on the pavement is "nasty stuff" – Agent Orange is a chemical weapon
"Agent Orange, used for chemical warfare in the Vietnam War, is estimated to have killed 400,000, deformed 500,000 and sickened another 2 million"
"Between 2.1 to 4.8 million Vietnamese were directly exposed to Agent Orange
400,000 Vietnamese were killed and another 500,000 children have been born with birth defects
50,000 US servicemen have received compensation – though many claimants still have not.
Describing Agent Orange as just a "defoliant" is an insult to all who were affected –
It is recognised as a Chemical weapon
"Monsanto, Agent Orange Creator, Returns To Vietnam | Common ...
Multinational agricultural biotech corporation Monsanto, known as the creator of chemical weapon Agent Orange, is attempting to infiltrate Vietnam once again -- this time ...
www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/02/​07-5 - Cached"
You really are a pair of vermin
See y'all later
Jim Carroll

"Spectre orange
Nearly 30 years after the Vietnam war, a chemical weapon used by US troops is still exacting a hideous toll on each new generation.....
.......It would take the intervention of the former commander of the US Navy in Vietnam, Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, for the government finally to admit that it had been aware of the potential dangers of the chemicals used in Vietnam from the start of Ranch Hand. The admiral's involvement stemmed from a deathbed pledge to his son, a patrol boat captain who contracted two forms of cancer that he believed had been caused by his exposure to Agent Orange. Every day during the war, Captain Elmo Zumwalt Jr had swum in a river from which he had also eaten fish, in an area that was regularly sprayed with the herbicide. Two years after his son's death in 1988, Zumwalt used his leverage within the military establishment to compile a classified report, which he presented to the secretary of the department of veterans' affairs and WHICH CONTAINED DATA LINKING AGENT ORANGE TO 28 LIFE-THREATENING CONDITIONS, INCLUDING BONE CANCER, SKIN CANCER, BRAIN CANCER - IN FACT, ALMOST EVERY CANCER KNOWN TO MAN - IN ADDITION TO CHRONIC SKIN DISORDERS, BIRTH DEFECTS, GASTROINTESTINAL DISEASES AND NEUROLOGICAL DEFECTS."
Guardian article March 2003
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/mar/29/usa.adrianlevy

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 03:21 AM

Any views on the Tunisia talks and resolutions?
The referendum on a new constitution, and the 60 more deaths on that day and 125 yesterday?
What about the increase in the random shelling of civilian areas?
What about a comment on who is supplying all those munitions raining down on the terrified people?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 04:25 AM

"What about a comment on who is supplying all those munitions raining down on the terrified people? "
All exporters of weapons and equipment to regimes such as that of Syria and Libya should be condemned outright as supporters of human rights abusers and should be subject to international law for supporting the abuses - in this case, to a horrific extreme.
To concentrate on a carefully selected few weapons suppliers, pretend that your own country has not been involved, and to describe exposing the fact that it has, (and continues to broker arms deals with similar regimes) when confronted with the evidence, as "anti-British" is, at the very least squalid hypocracy, and is, in fact supporting those regimes by covering up from where they have acquired their arms.
The "anti-British" defence is straight out of the BNP handbook.
We can, and do condemn from afar any state involved in supplying arms to murderers, but we can only bear direct responsibility for our own rulers - they have acted in our name in supplying BRITISH arms and equipment, and their having done so undermines our position to criticise others.
To supply, selectively condemn, then breast-beat over the consequences is no more than 'crocodile tears - (we've been here before).
I'm a bit at a loss as to how to describe the suggestion that the supplying of anti-riot equipment by our government is acceptable
http://www.corporatewatch.org/?lid=3933
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 06:07 AM

OK, but pro-rata, every word of criticism of Britain's contribution should be matched by several million against Russia.

Why is your criticism in the reverse proportion?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 06:31 AM

"Why is your criticism in the reverse proportion? "
Since when did you have to count the dead before you condemn the killers?
You have chosen to defend Britain's policy of selling arms to despotice states.
My criticism is in no way in the reverse proportion - I condemn all equally who have supported despotic nations with arms and equipment supplies You, on the other hand, have been selective in your criticism.
Of course China's and Russia's support for Syria is monsterous, but it is no more so than Britain's continuing arms trade, at the beginning of the Arab Spring, with countries who are potentially as murderous as Syria
WOULD YOU CARE TO COMMENT ON CAMERON'S HOSTING AN ARMS FAIR AT THE SAME TIME AS GADAFFI WAS SLAUGHTERING LIBYANS - I'VE GIVEN UP TRYING TO ELICIT A RESPONSE FROM YOU ON BRITAIN'S SELLING WEAPONS AND EQUIPMENT TO LIBYA WHICH WERE USED AGAINST THE REBELS
Until you condemn all suppliers of weapons to despotic states your pretended concern is transparent, agenda-serving bullshit.

The only reason Britain's name appears on this thread as often as it does is that you have persistantly lied and distorted the reality of our involvement in the arms trade in order to cover up the fact that we have sold and continue to sell arms to killers and potential killers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 07:38 AM

"Of course China's and Russia's support for Syria is monsterous, but it is no more so than Britain's continuing arms trade,"


THE SAME logic would lead me to state:

Of course Syria's shelling of it's own citizens is monsterous, but it is no more so than Jim's continuing support of the shelling of civilians, as long as they are Israeli.


And I doubt if ANY here would think THAT was a fair assessment. Though perhaps Jim does...

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 08:03 AM

Jim, all those topics are worthy of debate, and I would relish the chance to put you right on Vietnam, Zimbabwe etc.
But, this thread is about the ongoing tragedy in Syria.

Have you anything to contribute to THIS debate?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 09:15 AM

Today.
Some 500 children have been killed amid the violence in Syria, United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said Tuesday in Geneva, revising a previous estimate of 400 dead children.

In January alone, 80 children were killed, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights said.

Pillay cited unspecified reports as the source of her statement, which came just three weeks after the United Nations Children's Fund made the previous estimate.

Pillay, said the international community has to take action to prevent Syrian security forces from continuing their attacks against civilians, which she said had resulted in "countless atrocities."

"There must be an immediate humanitarian cease-fire to end the fighting and bombardments," Pillay told an urgent meeting of the U.N. Human Rights Council.

She urged Syria to end all fighting, allow international monitors to enter the country and give unhindered access for aid agencies to enter Homs and other embattled cities

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 09:38 AM

While you continue to ignore the part Britain is playing in the distribution of weapons to murderously oppressive regimes you continue to be a mealy-mouthed apologist for what these weapons are being used for - you don't even have the good grace to acknowledge that they have been, and are still being sold to regimes who use them to kill their people in order to maintain the sytatus quo
You really do not have a case.
"Have you anything to contribute to THIS debate? "
This debate is about the supplying of weapons to tryants - you have limited it to Russia and China - it is about ALL NATIONS WHICH SELL WEAPONS TO THESE PEOPLE - you are a mealy-mouthed hyocrite who has consistently lied to maintain your non-existent case.
"shelling of civilians, as long as they are Israeli.
"
I have never at any time supported the shelling of civilians; I have said that in a territorial war it is inevitable - if you can point out where I have supported it - please do - have asked before and you didn't respond
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 09:58 AM

This debate is about the supplying of weapons to tryants
No, you need to start a thread if you want that.
I wish you would.
This is about the ongoing human catastrophe in Syria, and about who is responsible.

- you have limited it to Russia and China
That is because they supplied, and are still supplying the weapons and ammunition that is sustaining the carnage.
Not Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: pdq
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 10:52 AM

...from Reuters:

"Assad has ruled Syria for 11 years since succeeding his father Hafez on his death. The Assad family belongs to the Alawite sect, an offshoot of Shi'ite Islam, in a majority Sunni country, and there are fears that the uprising could break down into a full sectarian conflict.

Two Iranian warships docked at the Syrian port of Tartous on Saturday, Iranian state TV reported. The ships were said to be providing training for Syrian naval forces.

With Shi'te-led Iran already at odds with the United States, Europe and Israel over its nuclear program, the deployment was likely to add to Western concerns that the Syria crisis could boil over into a regional conflict if it is not resolved soon.

Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Dan Meridor, asked about the Iranian move at briefing in Jerusalem, said Assad was receiving generous support from Iran and the Hezbollah militant group, and that Russia and China had given him 'a licence to kill.'"

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 01:08 PM

"No, you need to start a thread if you want that. "
No I don't Keith - it is about supplying weapons to Assad - Libya, Egypt, and all the rest of the Arab Spring states follow naturally.
Stop trying to police threads into your comfort zone - you told us you didn't do such things.
If not, what is the minimum size of weapon you would allow to be discussed on this thread, (assuming you had the authority to police it) - and why (other than to let Britain off the hook for selling weapons to killers.
Alternatively; if Cameron's trade fair efforts where successful, what weapons would you think it permissable to sell Bahrain say?
I don't really expect an answer from someone so spineless as your good self!
Any luck Brucie - can I expect a retraction and an apology or are you yet another spineless liar, like friend Keith?
Don't you people realise that if you have to lie to make your case, you have no case?
Jim Carroll