BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 07:47 AM

"I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls"
Implicit in this statement Keith - as it was in the minister's statement on television.
Why else would you propose that Assad be supplied with riot control equipment. As you still haven't explained or withdrawn this suggestion I can only assume it still stands.
"We are the good guys on this."
No Keith, you are a political half-wit who has bent over backward to claim I have been supporting these bastards when in fact it is exactly what you have been doing.
You have consistently used your revolting display of sackcloth and ashes to demonise two of the culprits while at the same time attempting to make excuses for the rest of the cynical bunch of thugs.
Don't you dare equate my attitude with yours, which is the usual right-wing garbage.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 08:14 AM

NO.
"that the Assad regime should continue" IS NOT IMPLICIT in the statement that I fear for minorities.
I am sure that you too have concerns for the safety of minorities.
Don't you Jim?
Any thinking, caring person would.

I started this thread because I was horrified by the crimes of Assad.
I still am.
Does that not "equate" with your attitude Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 02:36 PM

Obviousy, no one in this discussion has any power whatsoever in this matter,or any influence as to what is done or not done.

It is absurd to carry it on in terms that could only be relevant if the people taking part were actual or potential agents.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 03:12 PM

Obviously McG.
And obviously, as decent people, we all want an end to the suffering.

Both Jim and I, and I assume everyone else here, thinks Assad must go as part of any solution.

That is not the universal view among governments however.
Iran, Russia and China are determined to keep him in power.
UN, USA, UK and other Western nations say he must go.

Poor Jim is tying himself in knots because he finds himself agreeing with UK, USA (and me!) against Iran, China and Russia on that issue.
This he can not admit without losing his Hard Left cred.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 06:27 PM

What Iran Russia China UN USA UK and Saudi Arabia and Co wish to happen is probably about as irrelevant as what we here want to happen.

The only thing that can make any difference would be direct intervention, and that would almost certainly make things even worse. In the same way that the intervention already being carried out by supplying arms is already making things worse.

The assumption that somehow everything would be fine, or would even be significantly changed, if Assad was out of the picture is very much open to question.

It would be great if somehow everything would be sorted out if "we" did the right thing (whoever "we" might be, and whatever "the right thing" is). But it really doesn't seem too likely to be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 02:34 AM

I agree that there is no avoiding a catastrophe.
I also agree with Jim that the international community has a duty to act to prevent such crimes against humanity as we have seen in Syria.

IMO, Assad is guilty of such crimes, and should not remain in power.
Annan has openly said the same.
Western and Arab League governments have for some time.
Russia and China want him kept in power for reasons of self interest

Concerted action by UN is vetoed.
Military intervention is not considered practical for several reasons, even if there was no veto.
Trade sanctions are ineffective because Iran, Russia and China continue to trade, including supplying more arms.
Economic sanctions by Arab League and West (seizing assets, not buying his oil) have halved the value of the currency and drained his foreign currency reserves. (Yes there is oil Jim.)

The transition of rule is bound to be messy.
The opposition are disparate with many ethnic divisions.
The Un would try to get an agreement for a temporary government of national unity with safeguards for minorities.

I share your sense of hopelessness McG, but our governments should not give up as you seem to be suggesting.

I note you do not criticise the countries arming and supporting Assad McG.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 02:45 AM

It would be great if somehow everything would be sorted out if "we" did the right thing (whoever "we" might be, and whatever "the right thing" is).

The "wrong" thing is to supply weapons including heavy weapons to be used against a population.
Iran Russia and China are doing that.

"We"?
I mean us. If we have a view on this we should state it.
I mean our governments who we should expect to try to establish what is the "right thing" or even just the best or least worst thing, and to persuade the international community to cooperate in doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 02:48 AM

Woops. Sorry.
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 02:45 AM

It would be great if somehow everything would be sorted out if "we" did the right thing (whoever "we" might be, and whatever "the right thing" is).

The "wrong" thing is to supply weapons including heavy weapons to be used against a population.
Iran Russia and China are doing that.

"We"?
I mean us. If we have a view on this we should state it.
I mean our governments who we should expect to try to establish what is the "right thing" or even just the best or least worst thing, and to persuade the international community to cooperate in doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 03:37 AM

"Any thinking, caring person would."
I believe you to be neither,
You have suggested a way Assad could be helped continue his hold over his people - riot control equipment (still neither explained nor withdrawn - or even referred to - by you, so still your only practical suggestion on the subject).
You have excused Britain having sold him military equipment - by denying the fact that it happened - by minimising the effect of the sale... and numerous other contradictory excuses.
You have desperately attempted to prevent discussion on one of the most fundamental aspects of this whole affair - the sale of arms to tyranical dictators - by describing it as "I hate Britain" thread drift.
You have questioned offering practical assistance to the Syrian people to oppose Assad by suggesting that they pose a threat to others should his regime be overthrown.
You have opposed every suggestion of practical assistance made here and offered none of your own (apart from the riot control equipment, of course).
Not a great deal of either compassion or thought there in spite of all the breast-beating and crocodile tears.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 04:50 AM

I believe you to be neither,

Then you misjudge me again.

You have opposed every suggestion
Lie Jim.
I have opposed not one suggestion.
Count them Jim.
None.

and offered none of your own
This is true.
I have no solutions and have apologised for having none.
I am satisfied that British government and others are doing all that can be done, but hindered by the intransigent self interest of Russia and China

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 05:54 AM

"You have opposed every suggestion of practical assistance made here and offered none of your own"
,.,.,

And what of such do you take yourself to have 'made' or 'offered' here, Jim -- apart from the old gunboat?

If you cannot do better, then you shall not go to the ball!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 08:27 AM

"And what of such do you take yourself to have 'made' or "
Suggest you read the proposals that were posted by me here from the Times leader of a week or so ago - makes sense to me.
"gunboat"
A little beneath even you Mike - sell 'em weapons if they can afford them but don't give them any so they can stop the regime cutting their childrens' throats.
Ever thought you might go into politics - Cameron looks like having to get reid of one or too now they've been caught with their hands in the nation's till.
"I have no solutions..."
Don't be modest Keith - selling Assad riot control gear was a solid enough suggestion.
Those you have rejected include individual nations overriding the veto by offering military assistance, and imposing a trade embargo, to which you replied:
"Those poor people need essential supplies.
The IRC is begging for an opportunity to get stuff in.
What would be the point of your "trade embargo" Jim?
How would that stop the daily massacres"
You don't even read what your own postings, do you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 08:36 AM

Poor Jim.
As a decent person he wants action against the regime, and Assad out.
Unfortunately for Jim, the US, UK and I agree with him.
How he hates that.
Worse yet, Russia, China and Iran are determined to keep Assad and to sell him all he needs to subjugate his people.

Poor Jim.
Which side are you on, boy?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 10:09 AM

"Unfortunately for Jim, the US, UK and I agree with him."
The US an Britain have done nothing whatever to remove Assad or to assist the Syrian people in any practical way. Unlike you, with your empty bewailing, they have not pretended otherwise, they said from the beginning that it would be unwise to arm or assist a people who might put into power a government that would not be favourable to the West.
Which side am I on - unlike you, whose only proposal to date has been to suggest supplying the Syrian regime with equipment that would assist it in controlling the dissidents, I support the Syrian people.
As you still have neither withdrawn not explained your obscene proposal - or even had the bottle to acknowledge it, it has stood as evidence of your support for these murderous thugs - no real surprise there.
I don't need to ask you which side you're on - you've made that perfectly clear, despite your efforts to disguise your allegience with mock sympathy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 10:43 AM

"I support the Syrian people"

The "Syrian people" include "these murderous thugs". It's a divided society, getting more divided all the time. If there is anything which outsiders can do to end the killing, joining in on one side isn't likely to be part of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 11:08 AM

Jim, I posted in general terms about non lethal riot equipment.
I argued that it does not put down uprisings, indeed it encourages them.
That is why Assad and Hamas prefer the lethal kind.

I am surprised you brought up the trade embargo we discussed back in February.
You WRONGLY stated that US and UK were refusing to impose them.
They DID impose them.
I asserted they would be ineffective in stopping the massacres, and tragically I was proved all too correct.
Mainly because Russia and China were happy to sell Assad whatever he wanted.

I admire you for stating your opposition to Assad, even though it aligns you with Israel against Iran.
None of your old anti Israel mates are willing to back you though.
What a dilemma Jim.
Why not just ramp up the personal abuse and get the thread closed.
It has worked before,

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 11:45 AM

to arm or assist a people who might put into power a government that would not be favourable
And you would Jim.
That puts you in bed with Saudi Arabia too!

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 04:33 AM

Telegraph.
The latest killings have galvanised Western powers into launching a fresh attempt to save Syria sliding into sectarian war between the country's Sunni majority and the president's Alawite Shia sect.

Britain, France and the United States said they were working to introduce a United Nations Security Council resolution imposing sanctions on the Syrian government that would be binding for all member states.

Previous such attempts have been blocked by Russia and China.(Russia has rejected this too)

At the same time, Mr Annan has responded to Western warning that they were close to writing off his plan, which came into force in April, by acknowledging the need for major modifications to save it from total failure.

He has suggested forming a "contact group" bringing together Western and Middle Eastern states, as well as Russia and China, in the hope of ending the international rift over Syria and paving the way for Mr Assad's departure.

But a row immediately erupted after he proposed to include Iran in the group, justifying the move on the grounds that it was "an important country in the region" whose involvement was key to bringing about a solution to the conflict.

Western powers categorically rejected the notion, with Mrs Clinton accusing Iran of "helping to stage-manage the repression" in Syria in order to prop up Mr Assad, a fellow Shia and a key ally of Iran. Britain and France were similarly vocal in their opposition.

"Iran is a country which is supporting some of the unacceptable violence and supporting the Syrian regime in what it's doing to the Syrian people," Alistair Burt, the Foreign Office minister responsible for the Middle East, said.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 05:19 AM

"Britain, France and the United States said they were working to introduce a United Nations Security Council "
Still nothing then - wonder if they's have waited for 18 months and watched so many people meing killed if it had been a threat to their oil supplies
Don't bother to answer; it was arhetorical question.
"It's a divided society,"
No excuse for the inaction that has failed to take even humanitarian steps to intervene - this has now moved into ethnic cleansing - I seem to remember that somebody is being tried for this at the present time.
Jim Carroll

"According to various sources, including the United Nations, up to 14,005–19,770 people have been killed, of which about half were civilians, but also including 6,195–6,770 armed combatants from both sides[25][39][40][41] and up to 1,400 opposition protesters.[22] Many more have been injured, and tens of thousands of protesters have been imprisoned. According to the Syrian government, 10,042–10,346 people, including 3,615 members of the security forces, 2,855–3,160 insurgents and up to 3,600 civilians, have been killed in fighting with what they characterize as "armed terrorist groups."[31] To escape the violence, thousands of Syrian refugees have fled the country to neighboring Jordan,[42] Lebanon and Turkey.[43] The total official UN numbers of Syrian refugees reached 42,000 on April,[44] while unofficial estimates on 1 June stood at as many as 180,000."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 06:52 AM

"Britain, France and the United States said they were working to introduce a United Nations Security Council resolution imposing sanctions on the Syrian government that would be binding for all member states."
Still nothing then
No Jim, however ever hard the good guys try, Russia and China block every attempt.
Which side are you on?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 07:02 AM

BBC
Russia will continue to oppose attempts by the UN Security Council to sanction military intervention in Syria, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has said.

Mr Lavrov also repeated calls for an international conference to implement the peace plan drawn up by UN special envoy Kofi Annan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18383746

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 09:17 AM

Telegraph today.
(William Hague, UK Foreign Sec) told Dermot Murnaghan on Sky News the continued political and trade isolation of Syria was the second best option. What was needed was a united way forward, he said.

Asked whether the Government had ruled out military intervention, Mr Hague said: "I think we don't know how things are going to develop. Syria is, as I said in the last couple of weeks, on the edge of a collapse or of a sectarian civil war so I don't think we can rule anything out.

"But it is not so much like Libya last year, where of course we had a successful intervention to save lives.

"It is looking more like Bosnia in the 1990s, being on the edge of a sectarian conflict in which neighbouring villages are attacking and killing each other so I don't think we can rule anything out.

(Note to Jim, Bosnia had no oil. Syria has.
That answers your "rhetorical" question.)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 02:51 AM

Jim, you will approve of this.
It is from the Palestinian publication "Shoa"

http://www.shoah.org.uk/2012/06/05/uk-to-set-up-camps-inside-syria-to-help-zio-nato-rebels/

Which side are you on Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 04:45 AM

"Note to Jim, Bosnia had no oil. Syria has."
Noteto Keith:
"Syria's oil reserves are being gradually depleted and reached 2.5 billion barrels in January 2009. Experts generally agree that Syria will become a net importer of petroleum by the end of the next decade." - unquote.
Syria has no significant oil supplies, hence the continued inaction on the massacres on the bart of Britain and the US.
"Britain, France and the United States said they were workingto introduce a United Nations Security Council resolution "
Somewhere over the rainbow - yet again - 18 months since the killing began and we are still beingtold what the UK, US and the UN ARE GOING TO DO RATHER THAN WHAT IT IS DOING TO HELP PREVENT THE MASSACRES AND RELIEVE THOSE UNDER THREAT
Do I agree that refugee camps should be set up to give aid and a degree of protectionto those in danger of being slaughteresd by the Assad regime?
Yes, I most certainly do - why don't you? It is one of the suggestions made in the Times leader two weeks ago (posted by me and ignored by you).
Do I agree with the interpretation put on it by the Shoah artical (sourced from one of Britain's leading tits-'n-bums publications)? No, of course I don't - and I have contempt for those, particularly yourself, who has put so much time and effort into trying to show that the Syrian people are not to be trusted and therefore not be saved from the carnage that is going on, and who would use such an interpretation for not helping those in the process of being massacred - you sink lower each time you put finger to keyboard.
Do I believe it should have happened a year ago when Assad seriously began to massacre his opponents on a grand scale?
Yes I do - and a lot more.
I also believe it would have happened immediately, had Syria been a major contender in the oil supply market, which you now appear to be trying to prove is the case.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 04:56 AM

Syria has no significant oil supplies, hence the continued inaction on the massacres on the bart of Britain and the US

It has 2.5 BILLION barrels more than Bosnia had, and NATO intervened there to save lives.
Intervention in Syria will be very bloody and very costly, and will only be contemplated as a last resort.
The British government is now talking of intervention.
Your Palestinian friends are certain that Britain is already doing everything you demanded, and more.
Confusingly for you, they object to anything that will assist the "ZIO-NATO" rebels against Assad.

Are you ZIO-NATO on this issue Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 05:07 AM

You and Israel now speak with one voice Jim.
We really are on the same side now.
No more arguments for us.http://www.shoah.org.uk/category/zionism/

Mofaz, a former top general and political centrist who joined Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's conservative coalition government last month, said Israel had limited options on Syria but had to lobby for international action.

"We need to enlist the West. We need our voice to be heard. This slaughter is being carried out not far from Israel's border," he said.

"We cannot get involved, for understandable reasons. But I think that the West, led by the United States, has an interest in guarding the threshold (so) genocide does not take place."

Speaking separately on Israel Radio, Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon said the Netanyahu government was prepared to help Syrians who take refuge in Jordan and other countries with ties to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 05:53 AM

"Are you ZIO-NATO on this issue Jim?"
Nope - are you now opposing your beloved leader.
You can now safely change your policy to supporting intervention without fear of being struck down by a thunderbolt from Downing Street
You really are a slimeball, aren't you?
Jim Carroll

WE CAN'T RULE OUT INTERVENTION, SAYS HAGUE, IN A SYRIA THAT LOOKS LIKE BOSNIA IN THE 90s.
Anthony Loyd Reyhanli, Turkey Sam Coates Deputy Political Editor

The bloodshed in Syria resembles that of Bosnia in the 1990s, William Hague said yesterday, invoking the memory of a conflict in which 12,000 British troops were sent to help to stop the killing.
The Foreign Secretary's comments came as a key Syrian rebel medical group on the border with Turkey told The Times that the West was failing to provide the promised aid to help the opposition movement. Meanwhile, the new head of Syria's main opposition group said that the regime was on its "last legs". Abdel Basset Sayda, a Kurdish activist, said: "The multiplying massacres and shellings show that it is struggling."
In the most recent episode, 20 people, mostly women and children, were killed in a bombardment of the city of Daraa over the weekend.
Mr Hague indicated yesterday that Britain would not rule out military action as the death toll from the conflict passed 14,000 in the 15-month conflictThe comparison with Bosnia is a significant moment, however, reminding the international community of the inaction that led to tens of thousands of deaths at the hands of Bosnian Serbs.
"Syria is... on the edge of a collapse or of a sectarian civil war so I don't think we can rule anything out," he said. "It is looking more like Bosnia in the 1990s, being on the edge of a sectarian conflict in which neighbouring villages are killing each other."
Within weeks of the conflict in Bosnia breaking out in 1992, thousands of refugees were herded into concentration camps where they suffered atrocities at the hands of Bosnian Serbs.
Despite full knowledge of the international community, it took three years including the massacre of 8,000 men and boys at Srebrenica before a brief bombing campaign in 1995 enforced a peace settlement that could have been achieved much earlier.
Mr Hague said that he "welcomed in principle" the Russian proposal for an international conference on Syria, but said that it must "not just buy time for the regime to kill more people". It would be hard to see how Iran could attend the conference, one of Russia's demands, as it had supported Syria.
The British Government had already provided £8.5 million towards helping alleviate the humanitarian situation, he said. However, a rebel doctor running the clandestine operation to smuggle supplies across the border from Turkey into Syria has questioned the scale of international commitment. He told The Times that all their medical supplies came from private sources not government. "Not a single country except France, who gave us a one-off do¬nation of €10,000, has given us any help at all," Omar al-Bunii said.
"These supplies are from private donors among Syria's expatriate community. There have been many promises of non-lethal aid. So far it has been just chat."
In the past month more than 500 wounded have been smuggled across the border for treatment in Turkey — 150 in the last ten days alone. Many die of their wounds long before they reach the border. "About 7 out of 10 deaths could be prevented if we had the right equipment," Dr al-Bunii added as his staff frantically distributed trauma kits to be rushed across the mountain to casualties of the latest atrocity at Maraat al-Numan, a town in northern Syria.
Ten months ago Dr al-Bunii and four other doctors established the Union of Free Syrian Doctors, to set up and supply a chain of secret field hospitals and clinics inside Syria. The organi¬sation, which now has logistics depots in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan, has 100 doctors inside Syria and another . 300 doctors worldwide collecting supplies to ship to frontier areas, to be carried across by couriers at night.
Yet not even the Syrian National Council, the diverse political body representing the revolution whose new leader, Abdulbaset Sieda, was appointed yesterday, has managed to secure it funding. "They visited us and gave us words not pennies," Dr al-Bunii said.
Working in the group is risky. Of the original five founding members, four are now in Syrian jails, with 25 other doctors from the organisation found treating casualties opposed to the regime. The Army burns down the field hospitals and regularly kills couriers.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 06:02 AM

I suppose it must be difficult now a leading Tory minister is supposting "ZIO-NATO on this issue"
Yet another article from this morning's Times
Jim Carroll

NEUTRALITY FAVOURS THE AGGRESSOR, AND DOING NOTHING LEADS TO MORE SAVAGERY
Indiscriminate bombardment, massacre and atrocity; a savage and implacable army running amok among a civilian population while the international community stands impotent at the ringside wringing its hands: I have seen this war before, 20 years ago in Bosnia.
William Hague was entirely correct in comparing the diabolical rampage of the Syrian regime with that of Serbian forces in the breakaway republic of the former Yugoslavia. Then, as now in Syria, President Slobodan Milosevic and his cartel of cronies counted on non-intervention to stoke ethnic hatred, unleashing well-armed forces to commit the worst bloodbath in Europe since the end of the Second World War. By the time that belated Nato airstrikes ended the conflict, more than 100,000 people were dead.
In an echo of the current pattern of killing in Syria, Bosnian Muslims were hobbled by an international arms embargo that allowed well-supplied Serb paramilitary units and militias to kill with impunity across swaths of territory, reducing cities to ruins with punitive artillery bombardments. Today President Assad's shabiha killers act in a way identical to yesteryear's Serb irregulars, who slaughtered men, women and children with such relish.
Although in Bosnia the United Nations did at least manage to agree to supply humanitarian aid to the war's victims, the debate on an escalated intervention continued using precisely the same vernacular as is used now over Syria, in which , exaggerated worst-case scenarios are used to justify non-intervention.
It may well be true that the stakes are much higher in Syria than they ever were in Bosnia. That country's war was never likely to spread outside the former Yugoslavia, while Syria's revolution could turn into a proxy war between regional Shia and Sunni powers and spill over into neighbouring countries. But after three years of escalating killing in Bosnia, the international community finally recognised that neutrality favours the aggressor and that non-intervention, rather than allowing the fires to dim, antagonises the savagery and violence.
The very same lesson is being relearnt in Syria where it is all too likely, if intervention is shunned, that the worst-case scenario of implosion and regional war will indeed become a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 06:18 AM

I posted Hague's announcement yesterday.
Did you miss it?

No sensible person wants a military intervention.(except you obviously Jim)
It can only be as a last resort, as the least bad option.
It would be a crime to resort to arms before every other option, diplomatic, economic sanctions, trade sanctions, were exhausted.

At least we agree that Assad can not be left in power, and that action of some sort is needed to save lives.
You and I are on the side of the good guys, UK, USA, Israel, against those who provide Assad with the materiel to crush the opposition.
Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, Hezbollah.
All your ex-mates Jim.
Good to have you on board at last.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 07:14 AM

You have been opposing the use of military intervention from the beginning - every argument on the subject by you has ruled it out because the Syrians are not to be trusted with equipment to defend themselves. Your fairy godmother even went as far as to describe it as "gunboat diplomacy" in line with teh stance taken by the Russians and the Chinese. The responsibilty for every drop of civilan blood spilt in Syria over the last year is shared by those who have stood on the sidelines and their supporters. "I do not favour a military intervention. I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls."
"Military intervention is not considered practical for several reasons, even if there was no veto."
Can't say clearer than that.
As I said - an utter slimeball. About turn - quick march - left, left, left - (whoops - sorry) right, right, right. Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 08:14 AM

You have been opposing the use of military intervention from the beginning
This is true.
I still believe invasion should be a last resort.
You and your new mates Israel and Saudi were well to the Right of me on that, wanting it from the start.
You old fascist you.

You and I were always in agreement that Assad was guilty of crimes against humanity.
Not like your ex mates the Palestinians and the rest.
Now we are together behind UK,USA and Israel.

We have only disagreed over the spurious issues you raised on this thread.
On the question of Assad we were always as one.
We are friends on this.
Good.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 09:19 AM

Piss off Keith -
Having opposed any action whatever to help the Syrians you are now attempting to back-pedal on that stance
"We have only disagreed over the spurious issues "
No we haven't I believe the suggestion of supplying Assad with riot control equipment to be an obscene one - and far from spurious - though I suppose someone would sugget it so to believe it was.
I believe anybody wh sustifies selling Assad 'only sniper bullets' at the time that the Homs massacres of civilians was emerging to be, again obscene and far from spurious
"You old fascist you."
And I believe anybody who would make such suggestions and out-and-out supporter of fascism at its worst.
I don't see any friends of yours here - excelt your fairy godmother of course.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 09:47 AM

Having opposed any action whatever to help the Syrians

How can you type such a lie Jim?
I started and restarted this thread because I was horrified by Assad's crimes against the Syrian people.
Deny that Jim?
I supported all the sanctions taken against him, which but for you ex friends Russia, China and Iran would have brought him down.
Deny that Jim?
All you wanted to do was fabricate crimes by Britain, a country that has done as more than any other to support the Syrians, short of supplying more weaponry.

Keep this up and I might have to break off our friendship.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 11:49 AM

"Piss off"; "slimeball"; "obscene" ...

Why, Jim, in pursuing your perfectly tenable, tho clearly far from indisputable, views on this topic do you have to be so persistently & distressingly RUDE? It alienates good will from your arguments, and from yourself. I know you have this funny joke about my being K's 'fairy godmother' ~~ I have never met Keith, & I haven't quite worked out yet quite what you mean by it, but at least it isn't as foulmouthed as so many of your denunciations; which, I would point out, are in marked contrast to the unfailingly courteous tone of Keith's entries. I have cast no spell on him to make it so; but I warn you again that if you don't wash your mouth out with soap you will not be fit to go to the ball...

Now, seriously, I do genuinely think it would advantage you to mind your manners and not be such an unmannerly pig ~~ which appears the image you seem for some reason thus far intent on cultivating.

I say all this for your own good, you know. You will thank me when you have grown out of this irritating phase, I promise.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 06:51 PM

I'm not too clear why Keith and Jim seem so hostile to each other, since both appear to see military intervention in Syria, at some stage, as being the right course of action,rather than as a predictable way of making a terrible situation far worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 01:08 AM

McG. I have been making that point to Jim.
It just makes him even more hostile.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 03:23 AM

This is scary.
Does it give you pause for thought Jim?
From an International Socialist site about Russian military intervention.http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jun2012/rusy-j12.shtml



the secretary-general of the Collective Security Treaty Organization, Nikolai Bordjusha, had held out the possibility of using "peacekeepers" in Syria. "The task in Syria is likely to be to impose peace—primarily against the insurgents, who use weapons to solve political problems."

Russia and China strongly oppose a military intervention by NATO in Syria, and have already blocked two UN resolutions on the issue.

On Monday last week, three Russian warships were sighted off the Syrian coast. An anonymous source from the Russian government told the Iranian newspaper Tehran Times that Moscow wants to show NATO that it will not allow any military operation against Damascus under the guise of a humanitarian mission.

Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev warned that a military intervention in Syria could quickly escalate and lead to the use of nuclear weapons.

The growing threat of war in the Middle East—and the fact that the European countries, including Germany and France, are siding with the United States—is increasingly driving Russia into a military alliance with China.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 09:58 AM

Keith;
"Russia and China strongly oppose a military intervention by NATO in Syria"
Whatever line the Russians and the Chinese have taken on Syria, it shouldn't make the slightest difference to your own as - taking your own words as a guide -   
"Military intervention is not considered practical for several reasons, even if there was no veto."
Your own opinion reflects theirs perfectly, so what's your gripe with their using a veto that ends up achieving something you support?
Yes, they have sold weapons to Syria, just as Britain sold small arms ammunition to Assad, which was possibly used against the people of Homs, or at the very least, to train the snipers who slaughtered so many people there.
You claim we basically agree - I support neither: you pay lip service to condemning one while defending the other (by denying that the sale took place, you having identified the equipment sold, by belittling its importance because of the size of the sale and the date it took place, by claiming (without evidence) thaat the sale was agreed, but the licence was withdrawn.... and a whole host of other excuses.
Mike
I find Keith one of the most offensively racist, hypocritical and dishonest individuals I have ever debated with.
I was not brought up to pass by on the other side - sorry
Can't help but notice that you choose not to discuss the fact that your own stance (gunboat diplomacy) coincides with that of Russia and China)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 10:32 AM

Can't help but notice that you choose not to discuss the fact that your own stance (gunboat diplomacy) coincides with that of Russia and China)
Jim Carroll ...
.,.,
That is not my stance, Jim; I haven't one, in particular, except concern & grief at another of those situations. It is my gloss on how I perceive yours.

No-one expects you to 'pass by on the other side'. I recognise that you are a man of strong moral principles which you are intent on expressing and upholding. I much respect this in you, even when my opinions do not coincide with yours. But I find much of the terms in which you choose to express these absolutely counterproductive. One feels that, if you can't argue with someone without calling him a slimeball or enjoining him to piss off, the force of your arguments is concomitantly diminished. Incontinent unmannerly foulmouthed denunciation is not a sign of strong involvement, but of weak arguments IMO. A point I think you should consider.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 10:34 AM

Jim, no sniper rifles or sniper ammunition was ever supplied to Syria by Britain.
That is why you have never found any evidence for it, apart from my mistaken post which I have often explained.
If you say Britain did, then we do disagree on that, and you are wrong.

I do not believe any of the licenced bullets were supplied all those years ago BECAUSE BRITAIN DOES NOT MAKE THEM!

We do agree that Assad is a criminal, responsible for mass murder of civilians and should not be in power.

I think you are foolishly naive of the likely catastrophic outcome of an invasion by Britain or NATO.
Have you studied any informed opinion?
try thishttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17356556

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 11:35 AM

Jim Carroll,
You call me dishonest when I never lie.
Worse, you call me racist.
I am no racist and it follows that I have never made any racist post.
I have shown that the posts you singled out are not racist.
Michael has seen the same posts and finds no racism.
Michael is of a much persecuted ethnic minority, and well placed to judge.

The rules laid down for the site forbid personal attacks.
Calling me racist is about as personal an attack as can be contemplated.
I have objected to this abuse before and will again make a formal complaint if you persist with it.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 01:11 PM

"You call me dishonest when I never lie."
You lie and distort constantly Keith - and when challenged and presented with contrary evidence you refuse to withdraw your distortions - plenty of examples to be had here on this thread and elsewhere.
You are lying here about the "sniper ammunition" - you identified it as such, then realising what a foot-in-mouth you had made (at a time when snipers were slaughtering civilians in Homs) you then presented tha host of different explanations for the sale (which is officially documented),
Here's a sample.
"A private individual applied for the licence to supply."
"I know that a licence was issued years ago for much less than a year's supply of ammunition."
"A licence was issued and revoked for some small arms ammunition, but probably none supplied."
"The licence was revoked and I do not believe that any was supplied."
"Your Guardian "data blog" refers to one licence for a small amount of small arms ammunition.
"So one individual bought some cheap ammo on the international market and sold it on."
"Not British ammunition."
"....and the licence was revoked."
These have all been made up by you - you have provided no evidence for any of them.
Sorry Keith - that is lying, whichever colour you choose to paint it.
"I am no racist and it follows that I have never made any racist post.
"
Describing the entire male British Pakistani population as being "cultually implanted" to make them paedophiles is a racist post.
Attributing it to a politician and then failing to provide evidence, is being a lying racist.
These are not "personal attacks" - they are responses to what I believe to be your racist and untruthful statements.
You are lying now - you have said you explained your "mistake" about the sniper bullets - you haven't - if you have, where is that explanation.
I don't know you, I have never met you, I don't want to meet you, I find your reviews repulsive.
For the sake of this forum, please leave me alone - go and do your 'old man of the sea' act with someone else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 02:28 PM

You can not possibly believe that I somehow knew about a batch of bullets all those years ago and let it slip by mistake.
I have no way of knowing about them have I???
I made a mistake.
You brought up a whole plethora of countries and weapons.
The sniper rifles actually related to Libya.
You know all this because I have apologised for my mistake several times.
The actual bullets.
We only have evidence of a licence.
I do not believe they were supplied, because we do not make them.
You were provided evidence of the weapons and ammunition they use and we don't make!

You are simply lying about my post that you imagine was racist.
I made no such claim.
This has been put before you many times over these 17 months.
You have made a fool of yourself with you obsessive, groundless, delusional hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 03:07 PM

"I made a mistake."
No you didn't - you attempted to defuse the fact that Britain sold bullets to Syria - and it blew up in your face - Syria came as a nnon-runner when all the other excuses had failed (all half donen of them) - you lied Keith and you continue to lie to cover up that lie.
"I made no such claim"
Yes you did Keith and I've reproduced it dozens of times - you are once again lying - would you like me to reproduce your posting yet again?
You blamed the statement on Jack Straw and have singularly failed to produce even the remotest semblance of a quote
That's the trouble with lying on line - it doesn't go away when you wish it would.
I won't even bother about you lying accusations for my support for Hezbollah, Russia, China... and your failure to produce either proof or a withdrawal.
Now go and lie for England elsewhere (and get somebody else to carry you across the stream)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 03:49 PM

defuse the fact that Britain sold bullets to Syria

Do not be silly Jim.
I said I did not believe it in spite of the licence, because we do not make their bullets.

You blamed the statement on Jack Straw

No I did not.
I said I believed the statement because a number of people from within the community, or like Jack straw having long and intimate knowledge of the community, said it was so.

leave me alone
Gladly Jim. Stop theses stupid personal attacks and I will.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 02:49 AM

Let's have no more of that peurile nonsense.

Meanwhile the real story moves on.
UN Head of Peacekeeping says the situation is now civil war.

Clinton accuses Russia of cynically and blatantly lying about its arms shipments, and of now sending more attack helicopters.

New massacres are feared but expected in al Haffeh and other places.
UN observers prevented from reaching them.

There is a humantarian crisis as civilians are made homeless and deprived of any aid.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 03:19 AM

puerile

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 03:24 AM

There has been a humanitarian crisis in Syria for over a year now and nothing practical has been done to stop it escalating to where it is now at.
The Syrian people themselves have said "THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD HAVE ABANDONED US. NOW WE JUST ASK GOD FOR HELP". Inaction on the part of the UN (who, despite the vicious intervention by Russia and China, could have done far more than they have) and the cynical decision by the US and Britain not to become practically involved because of (in their own words) the possible alternatives to Assad, has done much to drive the people of Syria into the arms of the extremists.
None of this would have happened if the west's oil supplies had been in any way threatened.
Not only have the people of Syria been subjected to wholesale slaughter, but the credibility of the UN has been damaged, hopefully, not beyond repair.
This started as a protest against the lack of democracy in a viciously repressive feudal country, if it has escalated into something else; the blame lies to a large extent way beyond the borders of Syria.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 04:00 AM

Inaction on the part of the UN (who, despite the vicious intervention by Russia and China, could have done far more than they have
Wrong.
Nothing can be done by UN against a veto.

Britain not to become practically involved because of (in their own words) the possible alternatives to Assad,

"own words"?
Wrong. No ministerial announcement had those words.
I myself have posted several ministerial statements of actual practical action that has been and is being taken by Britain.

The EU oil embargo of which Britain played a part has cost Assad four billion US dollars and halved the value of the Syrian pound.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 11:31 AM

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