BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 05:10 PM

Jim, Britain sold no weapons to Libya.
You lied to push your dogma driven agenda.

Bizarrely you now appear to be attempting to prove your case with something I HAVENT SAID
Yes. It is significant that you have never criticised these vile repressive regimes while spewing out pages of criticism of Israel, Britain and USA.

that is what the Libyan people have to be thankful to Britain for
I followed the news reports closely.
I found nothing to suggest that British supplied equipment was found useful to Gaddafi at all.
The Libyan people are very, very thankful to Britain for the diplomatic support we gave them against Gaddafi, and for actually going into combat to defend their civilians from Gaddafi's Russian supplied aircraft, tanks, multiple rocket launchers and big guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 05:34 PM

"If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water. It would not be such a crime to supply such things"

You prefer them to use live rounds on the demonstrators do you Jim?
Are you some kind of monster?!

Non-lethal crowd control equipment does not crush protest.
That is why Gaddafi, Hamas and Assad use old fashioned bullets on protesters.
Bullets kill and discourage, and the hospitals can be trawled for survivors.
Tear gas disperses one protest but changes no minds in favour of the government and they all live to continue the work.
The protest gets global coverage and grows and spreads.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 02:56 AM

You pair really are prepared to go to extraordinary lengths to justify the selling of military equipment to mass murdereres of their people by Britain.
You have had the description of what sniper bullets are having on the population of Homs - a refresher:

"Snipers rule the streets in the besieged Syrian city of Homs...
For months, the Syrian city of Homs has been the focus of opposition to the regime of President Bashar al-Assad, with almost daily protests since the summer.....
Among the bullet-scarred walls of neighborhoods under siege, he encountered the government snipers who prowl the city picking off their victims apparently indiscriminately and at will.
He found snipers stationed on almost every main street, manning checkpoints on both sides and firing at anybody crossing the street between 4 p.m. and 8 a.m. the next day -- imposing a kind of unofficial curfew.
He spoke to one woman whose daughter was seven months pregnant when she was shot in the head as she tried to venture out of the house to do some shopping. The snipers kept shooting as relatives tried to reach the pregnant woman where she lay dead in the street, before finally they were able to bring her body back to her mother's home.
"I had to cross several times exactly the same streets where people got shot several minutes before. And you arrive at a scene where half an hour ago someone got shot and 30 minutes later people are crossing the street normally," he said.
Residents describe the daily struggle of life in the cross-hairs, some telling how they throw bread and other supplies across the street to others who cannot safely traverse to reach a shop."

There you go - 'only sniper bullets.
You identify them as such - try to minimise their effect - deny they have been sold - then attempt to identify me as having the same foul opoinions as yourselves, first by claiming that I have supprted religious extremist groups, then, when that fails, accusing me for something I have not said.
One of you squalids has proposed that sniper bullets are not enough and that it would be ok to supply this monster with "riot control equipment"
"Non-lethal crowd control equipment does not crush protest."
WHAT!!!!!! - What is to it there for - to entertain the demonstrators so they do not feel they are being ignored?
That is as moronic as it gets - well done Keith.

"Britain sold no weapons to Libya"
So the lists were made up - a report of a demontration in London last year:

"Kayaks attempt to stop warship getting to Activists on inflatable Kayaks have this morning attempted to stop the Destroyer HMS Dauntless from reaching the Excel Centre where it is due to be displayed at the DSEi Arms fair.
Protesters confront battleships en route to world's largest arms fair 10.09.2011 10:49
Protesters confront battleships en route to world's largest arms fair
Today, warships en route to the world's largest arms fair were disrupted by protesters angry at a trade that inflicts untold misery and death across the planet. Protesters manoeuvred kayaks in front of the ships to prevent them gaining access to Royal Victoria Dock.
At a time of austerity and government cuts, East London will be hosting Defence Systems Equipment International (DSEi) from 13th - 16th September, with much of the cost borne by the taxpayer.
Every 2 years the ExCeL centre in London's dockyards welcomes dictators, arms dealers and suspected war criminals in an attempt to persuade them to buy British weaponry. Many of the weapons used by dictators to kill demonstrators during the Arab spring were procured from DSEi exhibitors.
This year DSEi falls on the 10th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks that killed nearly 3,000 people. It is worth remembering that (according to the British Medical Journal) nearly 400,000 people die every year from armed
conflict.
A spokesperson for Disarm DSEi stated "The same politicians that shed crocodile tears for the 9/11 victims are fuelling the fires of war and armed conflict around the world. It is up to ordinary people to intervene to stop the obscene traffic in arms. DSEi, the world's largest arms fair, must be stopped."
This is just one action in a concerted campaign. Protesters have vowed to disrupt DSEi throughout the week, including a day of action on the 13th to blockade the DLR and prevent delegates attending the event.
Several warships will form part of this year's DSEi – hosting receptions and showcasing military technology, including HMS Dauntless, the pride of the British Navy.
Over 1200 arms companies will be selling their wares to 25,000 buyers from around the world, including military delegations from some of the world's most repressive, human rights abusing regimes.
DSEi is held in Newham, one of London's most impoverished boroughs. Whilst the government has subsidised DSEi by £320,000 and paid up to £4million for policing, Newham council are being forced to cut
£116 million from their budget over the next four years.
For years leading up to the "Arab Spring", arms companies have exported equipment to the regimes which are now being condemned by governments rapidly backtracking on their support. A report issued in April this year confirmed that since 2009 the UK have exported components for military helicopters to Algeria, sub-machine guns and tear gas to Bahrain, machine guns to Egypt and hand grenades to Jordan. British defence contractors have also sold small arms ammunition to Syria, hand grenades, sniper rifles and tear gas to Saudi Arabia and shotguns to Morocco."
Jim Carroll
"No she won't "Christmas"
Haven't been called since I was 10, by somebody of the same age.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 03:20 AM

I made a mistake.
Sorry.
Having to discuss so many nation states on a thread supposedly about Syria is enough to confuse anyone.

The opening to my 20 Feb 12 - 05:10 post should have read

Jim, Britain sold no weapons to Libya.
You lied to push your dogma driven agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 03:25 AM

Now re crowd control equipment.
I have nothing but contempt for the vile repressive regime in Gaza, but I would be happy if someone provided them with non-lethal stuff to use instead of live fire on their own people.
Why do you consider bullets best for that Jim?
Do you approve of those thugs being supplied lethal weapons?

Non-lethal crowd control equipment does not crush protest.
That is why Gaddafi, Hamas and Assad use old fashioned bullets on protesters.
Bullets kill and discourage, and the hospitals can be trawled for survivors.
Tear gas disperses one protest but changes no minds in favour of the government and they all live to continue the work.
The protest gets global coverage and grows and spreads.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 04:31 AM

"Britain sold no weapons to Libya."
These have all been reported in the press as having been sold to Libya - on what basis are you claiming that they have not; are the Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph, The Guardian all "dogma driven"?
"combat shotguns, crowd control ammunition, equipment for the use of military communications equipment and shotguns, military communications equipment, military helmets, small arms ammunition, tear gas/irritant ammunition, ammunition for wall and door breaching, projectile launchers, small arms ammunition and more tear gas/irritant ammunition."
"Non-lethal crowd control equipment does not crush protest."
Crowd control equipment is used specifically to prevent civilians from demonstrating - it wounds, maims, blinds and scars (often permenantly), and can kill demonstrators. The purpose for its use is to dicourage and prevent demonstrators from expressing an opininion - in this case against a murderous dictator. You have indicated that it could be sold to this dictator who is now slaughtering his people including with "sniper bullets" (your description), possibly the ones that were sold to him by Britain (are you now saying he wasn't sold "small arms ammunition - despite press reports that he was?).
By suggesting the sale of "riot control equipment" you are proposing it is permissable to this regime with further sales of weapons and equipment - on what grounds are you suggesting this?
If you are so desperate to drift the thread to the territorial war that is going on in Palestine, why did you protest about a discussion of weapens supplied by Britain on this thread, and claim it to be "thread drift"?
You have my opinion on that conflict - you pored over it recently in order to find my "support" for one side or the other - you failed dismally.
You have my opinion on that war - you are the ony one who has given support to massacres, blockades, terrorising and abuse of civilians, the use of heavy artillery and chemicals (not unsimilar to what is going on in Homs at present).... and all the other atrocities - your support has been "the accused said he didn't do it M'lud".
You want a thread drift - what is your opinion of Israel attempting to sell nuclear warheads to Apartheid South Africa - "agenda driven lies", inventions of a disaffected press... please let us know?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 04:37 AM

Missed a bit
"Why do you consider bullets best for that Jim?"
YOU ARE THE ONLY SCUMBAG HERE SUGGESTING THAT THESE PEOPLE BE SOLD ANY WEAPONS WHATEVER - IF NOT - WHO ELSE HAS MADE SUCH A SUGGESTION -AND WHERE?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 07:53 AM

They have plenty enough for gunning down demonstrators alraedy.
I would say it was the lesser of evils if someone supplied them non-lethal crowd control.
You want them to go on using lethal bullets presumably.
Not nice Jim.
(But Hamas seems happy with that anyway.)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 08:24 AM

You have proposed sending riot weapons to a murderous dictator,
You have consistently denied documented evidence of weapons supplied by Britain
Congratulations - you have just added two magnificent items to your already glowing CV
There is nowhere else to go with this.
Many thanks for giving me the opportunity to air my views on Britain's totally unprincipled involvement in the arms trade; thanks particularly in choosing a subject which displays the cynical ruthlessness with which this trade is pursued in selling to a mass murderer attempting to put down an unarmed and oppressed people - echoed perfectly by your own hysterically fanatical nationalism in attempting to deny the documented evidence put before you.
In taking the stance you have, you have shown the concern you expressed in your o.p. no more than an exercise in hypocracy - but there again, you are quite good (if a little ham-fisted) at crocodile tears, as you have shown in the past.
I'll leave you to try and extract yourself out of the hole of your own digging.
Jim Carroll
PS Further thanks are due to you for my finding out that Israel offered to trade nuclear warheads with the viciously racist Apartheid regime in South Africa; without your help....
Your silence on the matter indicates that even you would not dare deny it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 08:35 AM

You have proposed sending riot weapons to a murderous dictator,
Yes. You clearly believe that lethal weapons are better.
That is deranged.

You have consistently denied documented evidence of weapons supplied by Britain
That is a lie, except that a few posts ago I typed "Libya" instead of "Syria"
This thread is about Syria.
YOU lied that Britain supplied weapons to Syria.
Will you take that lie back Jim?

PS Further thanks are due to you for my finding out that Israel offered to trade nuclear warheads with the viciously racist Apartheid regime in South Africa; without your help....
Your silence on the matter indicates that even you would not dare deny it.

This is not the place to discuss events of half a century ago, but briefly, I don't believe it Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 11:59 AM

"You pair really are prepared to go to extraordinary lengths to justify the selling of military equipment to mass murdereres of their people by Britain."

Ermm No ""Christmas" neither Keith, myself or anyone else attempting to inject you with a dose of reality and commonsense are, nor have been justifying anything. What we have done is demonstrably proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that The British Government SOLD NO WEAPONS TO SYRIA"

Now as far as your snipers in Homs go:
1: First victim shot was when? (6th May 2011)

2: Were any of the 15 civilians and 11 troops killed that day killed by snipers? - "Christmas" will have all the information on this and he will produce it when he replies in detail in answer to this question.

3: Clashes continue on 8th May gunmen attack a bus - no snipers there

4: 10th May 5 to 9 people killed but they were killed by tank and machine-gun fire - not snipers

5: 20th May 11 dead, killed by machine gun fire - not snipers

6: 27th May 3 dead with direct clashes with the military - not snipers

7: 30th May 7 dead civilians and 1 dead soldier direct clashes with the Army

8: 17th July 40 dead due to shelling by tanks - not snipers

9: 29th August more violence this time machine gun fire - unconfirmed defections of soldiers from the Syrian Army

10: 28th October, Free Syrian Army in Bab al-Sebaa take on the Syrian Army loyal to Assad (17 soldiers were killed - maybe they were killed by snipers).

11: 29th October these clashes spread to Baba Amr and al-Qusur. In Baba Amr 20 soldiers were killed and 53 wounded (Could some of them have been killed by snipers "Christmas"?).

12: 3rd November, tanks opened fire on the Baba Amr district. More than 100 people, including civilians, were reportedly killed by the next day - Note by tanks not snipers.

13: 24th November, 11 defecting soldiers were killed and four wounded during clashes on the western outskirts of Homs. Later, the military conducted raids against farms further to the west killing another 15 people. "Raids against farms" - Do snipers carry out raids against farms Jim-Lad?

14: 25th November, six elite pilots, one technical officer and three other personnel were killed in Homs in an ambush by Free Syrian Army.

15: 4th December, 5 FSA insurgents were killed and 1 wounded

16: 5th December, 61 people were reported to be dead, 34 Sunnis and 27 Alawites. The London-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said an activist on the ground reported seeing "the bodies of 34 civilians, in a square in the pro-regime neighbourhood of Al-Zahra, who had been abducted by the shabiha [pro-government militia] on Monday", according to the AFP news agency. The Observatory also reported the "shabiha" abducted a bus driver and his 13 passengers in Homs province on the 5th.

Snipers do not abduct their victims before shooting them or do you disagree "Christmas".

17: 9th December, fears of a massacre by government forces were building, due to a build up of troops, government militia (Shabeeha) and 500 tanks on the outskirts of the city and an increasing number of checkpoints - No mention of snipers

18: In mid-December Der Spiegel crew managed to smuggle themself inside the city of Homs where they witnesses Baba Amr district being completely under control of FSA soldiers with checkpoints erected at the edge of the district. According to local FSA commander Shabeeha and army snipers were positioned in approximately 200 places in Homs and were shooting on everything that moved in designated zones like Cairo street which runs through the center of the city.

There ya go "Christmas" - First mention of snipers shooting at people around the 18th December 2011 a good two years after some private individual received a licence to sell 7.62 NATO ammo to Syria. Now all you have to do is provide evidence that people shot by these snipers were armed with Austrian Steyr SSG69 rifles firing ammunition (Oh sorry, that should be "firing arms") supplied two years previously by an arms dealer based in Britain (i.e. NOT the British Government).

19: 24th to 27th December 61 people killed by artillery and tank fire - not by snipers - now tell us Jim-Lad who sold Assad the tanks and the artillery because so far they seem to have done the most damage.

20: Same old same old throughout January and February with tanks and artillery doing their worst. Assad's boys killing journalists did not help.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 12:08 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 12:13 PM

Here's one for you "Christmas"

Place: Homs

Date 27th December, 2011

"Some 70,000 protests gathered in central Homs during the official visit of Arab League observer mission and were later dispersed by tear gas."

Number of demonstrators killed = ZERO"

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 04:30 PM

"You have proposed sending riot weapons to a murderous dictator,"

No I do not think anyone has done that. They have merely pointed out that it is better to confront a demonstration with non-lethal means than with tanks and artillery as Assad has done. But just to get things perfectly clear here, the murderous dictator we are talking about is Bashar al Assad of Syria, the same man and regime that supplies and supports Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza

"You have consistently denied documented evidence of weapons supplied by Britain"

Documented "evidence"?? What documented "evidence"? Newspaper articles that when you actually read them show nothing of the kind.

Don't ever sit on a jury "Christmas" whoever the accused was would be well and truly stuffed - you would not know "evidence" if it jumped up and bit you.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 06:21 PM

Teribus, old friend, I hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 01:33 AM

Yes. Jim's refusal to accept a terrible truth make me want to bang my head too.
This thread was about the most terrible crime against humanity in recent years, yet our Lefties did not want to talk about it.
Except our most maniacal Marxist.
He could not allow it to expose those culpable because they are old Marxists or old Marxist mates.
Syria, Russia and China.
He tried to derail it be posting about numerous other countries, and by blatant lying to implicate an innocent party.
He lied that Britain supplied weapons to Syria.
He is still doing it.
What is your message to him 999?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 03:10 AM

It has become quite clear that imperialist interventions in the internal affairs of Syria under the pretext of "democracy," led by the governments of France and the United States, together with the British and German governments, are behind the mass media campaign against Syria, the campaign employing a number of Syrian dissidents in exile who have associated themselves with the US-Israeli project in the region.

Our people take the threats to our country seriously and stand together in confronting them. The foreign plots thus will not succeed in changing the national policy of our country: Syria's opposition to the US-Israeli project; Syria's struggle to liberate the Golan Heights; Syria's support for the struggle of the Palestinian people to liberate their land, to build an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, as well as for the struggles to liberate Iraq from the US occupation and South Lebanon from the Israeli occupation.

We very much appreciate the firm positive stances of Russia and China exposing the threats to Syria and giving full support to Syria in this crisis.

Now our party is working with other Syrian parties, the Syrian national opposition forces, and various currents of civil society in order to put in practice the proposal for a conference for national dialogue.

With our best comradely wishes,

Hunein Nemer
First Secretary of the Syrian Communist Party (Unified)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 11:43 AM

I have not read this whole thread, but I think it is the most likely place to post the fact that a well-respected and very brave, imo, journalist, an American, was killed in Homs, along with a very talented and up and coming French photojournalist. CLick Here for text and a video/telephone report, the last one on CNN of Marie Colvin.

This saddens me, greatly, esp. the footage of the baby who died as Colvin was being interviewed.

This HAS to stop!


kat

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 11:44 AM

Waiting on Jim to make some comment on this, which happened AFTER the violence, unlike his supposed sales by "Britain".


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9094287/Iran-warships-deployed-on-Syria-coast.html


"Enjoying the support of Iran and Russia, Mr Assad has shown little willingness to end the violence against his own people, despite growing pressure from the Arab League. Activists in Syria yesterday reported a large army build up around the restive cities of Homs and Hama, raising fears that the president is preparing to order fresh offensives against both. The Red Cross said it was attempting to negotiate a pause in the fighting to allow humanitarian supplies into vulnerable parts of the country."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/20/syria-iran-ships-china-civil-war_n_1288601.html


"Security forces have killed at least 5,000 people, according to human rights groups, in a campaign to crush the revolt while the Assad government says it has lost more than 2,000 soldiers and security agents in what it describes as a struggle against foreign-backed terrorists,

The conflict has also pitted Western and Gulf-led Arab powers against Assad allies Russia, China and Iran.

The former have condemned Assad for the bloodshed and called for him to step down. Beijing and Moscow say all sides are to blame for the violence and the crisis should be resolved through talks, not foreign intervention.
"

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 03:04 PM

The horror has been repeated every day since well before the start of this thread.
And it worsens and deepens.
Almost no criticism here of the ruthless inhumanity of Assad, or of Russia and China, the suppliers of the shells and rockets raining down on the helpless people.

Instead, Jim has filled the thread with lies and criticism of utterly blameless Britain.
No humanity, just ideology.
A Marxist monster.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 05:23 AM

The line of attack by the 'weapons merchants' here seems to be that there is some support for Assad (by me?) for Assad on this thread.
What is happening in Syria shows that the regime should never have been sold weapons in the first place, by anybody - this includes the "only sniper ammunition" from Britain.
Nobody needed a "crystal ball" to know that Assad was a murderous thug - the Amnesty International report shows that the regime has been murdering and torturing for decades, yet this went uncommented on right up to the present events.
Despite this, a handful of rabid rightists on this forum have been attempting to justify/deny/play down (all at the same time) the sales of military equipment, including "sniper bullets" to Syria.
"yet our Lefties did not want to talk about it."
My early entry on this thread was to point out that a week ago a bunch of Tories and a Labour-cum-Tory had appeared on BBC's Question Time and carefully explained why the British Government did not intend to intervene in Syria, the argument being 'better the devil you know....'
The headline over an article in The Times yesterday summed up the response to that inaction by the Syrian people:
"THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD HAVE ABANDONED US. NOW WE JUST ASK GOD FOR HELP
Without positive action by the UN (despite the veto) condemnation of the Assad regime is no more than empty words
At the very least, a trade embargo should have been put into place immediately it became plain what was happening.
"The EU is the first trading partner for Syria with total trade amounting to approximately €7.18 billion in 2010. Although the EU–Syrian bilateral trade volume contracted in 2009 by almost 23% in account of the impact of the global crisis, the 2010 trade volume already surpasses the 2008 one. The EU is Syria's biggest trade partner covering 22.5% of Syrian trade while Syria ranks 50th for the EU."
"Jim's refusal to accept a terrible truth make me want to bang my head too."
Far from "the left not wanting to talk about it", left opposition to arms sales has been totally ignored and openly derided - Britain is the world's third greatest arms trader - in spite of the Arab Spring Cameron, recently attended an arms fair the purpose of which was to sell weapons to human rights abusers and possible war criminals
Prior to 2011 the British government listed Bahrain as a key market for arms exports.
The UK Trade and Investment Defence and Security Organisation, the government's arms sales promotion unit, supported the Bahrain International Airshow in 2010.
British armed forces have been used in support of sales efforts, demonstrating arms to the Royal Bahrain Artillery.
In 2010 equipment approved for export to Bahrain included tear gas and crowd control ammunition, equipment for the use of aircraft cannon, assault rifles, shotguns, sniper rifles and sub-machine guns.
British arms are still being sold to Mugabe - BAE has links with the Zimbabwe regime to the tune of £20m.
In the past British firms have sold weapons and equipment to Syria and Libya and continues to sell them to oppressive feudal regimes regimes which are actual and potential human rights abusers.
It is not the left who "doesn't want to talk about it - it is the laeft that have always campaigned to stop it I seem to have read somewhere that Russia, one of Assad's main suppliers, is a Capitalist country - is that right?
If there is a lesson to be learned here, it is that weapons and equipment should not be sold to despots, sniper bullets or otherwise, and certainly not "anti-riot equipment, as has been obscenely suggested here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 05:25 AM

The line of attack by the 'weapons merchants' here seems to be that there is some support for Assad (by me?) for Assad on this thread.
What is happening in Syria shows that the regime should never have been sold weapons in the first place, by anybody - this includes the "only sniper ammunition" from Britain.
Nobody needed a "crystal ball" to know that Assad was a murderous thug - the Amnesty International report shows that the regime has been murdering and torturing for decades, yet this went uncommented on right up to the present events.
Despite this, a handful of rabid rightists on this forum have been attempting to justify/deny/play down (all at the same time) the sales of military equipment, including "sniper bullets" to Syria.
"yet our Lefties did not want to talk about it."
My early entry on this thread was to point out that a week ago a bunch of Tories and a Labour-cum-Tory had appeared on BBC's Question Time and carefully explained why the British Government did not intend to intervene in Syria, the argument being 'better the devil you know....'
The headline over an article in The Times yesterday summed up the response to that inaction by the Syrian people:
"THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD HAVE ABANDONED US. NOW WE JUST ASK GOD FOR HELP
Without positive action by the UN (despite the veto) condemnation of the Assad regime is no more than empty words
At the very least, a trade embargo should have been put into place immediately it became plain what was happening.
"The EU is the first trading partner for Syria with total trade amounting to approximately €7.18 billion in 2010. Although the EU–Syrian bilateral trade volume contracted in 2009 by almost 23% in account of the impact of the global crisis, the 2010 trade volume already surpasses the 2008 one. The EU is Syria's biggest trade partner covering 22.5% of Syrian trade while Syria ranks 50th for the EU."
"Jim's refusal to accept a terrible truth make me want to bang my head too."
Far from "the left not wanting to talk about it", left opposition to arms sales has been totally ignored and openly derided - Britain is the world's third greatest arms trader - in spite of the Arab Spring Cameron, recently attended an arms fair the purpose of which was to sell weapons to human rights abusers and possible war criminals
Prior to 2011 the British government listed Bahrain as a key market for arms exports.
The UK Trade and Investment Defence and Security Organisation, the government's arms sales promotion unit, supported the Bahrain International Airshow in 2010.
British armed forces have been used in support of sales efforts, demonstrating arms to the Royal Bahrain Artillery.
In 2010 equipment approved for export to Bahrain included tear gas and crowd control ammunition, equipment for the use of aircraft cannon, assault rifles, shotguns, sniper rifles and sub-machine guns.
British arms are still being sold to Mugabe - BAE has links with the Zimbabwe regime to the tune of £20m.
In the past British firms have sold weapons and equipment to Syria and Libya and continues to sell them to oppressive feudal regimes regimes which are actual and potential human rights abusers.
It is not the left who "doesn't want to talk about it - it is the laeft that have always campaigned to stop it I seem to have read somewhere that Russia, one of Assad's main suppliers, is a Capitalist country - is that right?
If there is a lesson to be learned here, it is that weapons and equipment should not be sold to despots, sniper bullets or otherwise, and certainly not "anti-riot equipment, as has been obscenely suggested here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 05:34 AM

"Waiting on Jim to make some comment on this, which happened AFTER the violence, unlike his supposed sales by "Britain".
Why - I think Iran is an apalling regime - but onthe other hand....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16954636
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 05:57 AM

Still Jim only criticises Britain!
Despite this, a handful of rabid rightists on this forum have been attempting to justify/deny/play down (all at the same time) the sales of military equipment, including "sniper bullets" to Syria.

What "sniper bullets" Jim.
There is no evidence, except that years ago a licence was issued for a few weeks supply of some kind of bullets, except Britain does not make any that Syria uses.
The weapons suppliers also supply the ammunition.
BRITAIN SUPPLIED NO WEAPONS TO SYRIA
YOU LIED JIM.
TAKE IT BACK.

Any comment on the worst crime against humanity for decades Jim, and who is responsible for it?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 06:15 AM

Waiting on Jim to make some comment on this, which happened AFTER the violence, unlike his supposed sales by "Britain".
Nothing "supposed" about it BRITAIN SOLD ASSAD "SMALL ARMS AMMUNITON" (sniper bullets, I'm reliably informed by our 'arms experts' proving even the rightists brain-deads on this thread have accepted this to be true, even though they have tried to excuse it.
Why should you be "waiting for a comment" from me – I think Iran is every bit as appalling a regime as Syria, contrary to http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16954636
Far from this situation being a "monster Marxist" problem, it seems that countries like Britain are so deeply in hock to these bastards that they have to go on trading with them as long as they can – hence the 'Question Time' response, I suspect.
Jim Carroll
PS Having terrible connection problems with this forum – can the forum fairy remove my duplicate posting

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 06:45 AM

The Telegraph, Guardian and Daily Mail all reported the sale of "small arms ammunition", presumably from Reuters, whose web-site also included the information The reports came with official arms sales figures which included "small arms ammunition" which you and your knuckles-along-the-ground friend identified it as "sniper bullets" and attempted to justify the sale and/or minimise its importance – now you are denying it.
"Waiting on Jim to make some comment on this, which happened AFTER the violence, unlike his supposed sales by "Britain".
Nothing "supposed" about it BRITAIN SOLD ASSAD "SMALL ARMS AMMUNITON" (sniper bullets, I'm reliably informed by our 'arms experts' proving even the rightists brain-deads on this thread have accepted this to be true, even though they have tried to excuse it.
Why should you be "waiting for a comment" from me – I think Iran is every bit as appalling a regime as Syria, contrary to http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16954636
The EU is the first trading partner for Syria with total trade amounting to approximately €7.18 billion in 2010.
EU goods exports to Syria 2010: €3.6 billion - EU goods imports from Syria 2010: €3.5 billion
Far from this situation being a "monster Marxist" problem, it seems that countries like Britain are so deeply in hock to these bastards that they have to go on trading with them as long as they can – hence the 'Question Time' response, I suspect.
My comment – don't support vicious regimes that massacre their people becuse it is "good for British business" – don't suppose you'd care to comment on trading with them and refusing to intervene in any other way than a "tut-tut".
Jim Carroll
PS Having terrible connection problems with this forum – can the forum fairy remove my duplicate posting

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 07:47 AM

"yet this [Syria being a despotic country] went uncommented on right up to the present events."

I did comment on it years back, but the comment got lost in anti-Israeli diatribe. FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 07:57 AM

"I did comment on it years back, but the comment got lost in anti-Israeli diatribe. FYI."
Hard to distinguish one monster from another when they are all bombing civilians
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 08:29 AM

Yes it is, Jim. That includes Israel, its neighbours and the Palestinians with the help of Hezbollah and Hamas, courtesy of Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 08:50 AM

Israel/Palestine is a territorial dispute - as much as some would like to divert this discussion to that subject, it has nothing to do with the Arab Spring protests whatever particular flag you choose to fly under.
Stop drifting the thread otherwise you'll upset Keith.
It would be interesting to hear one comment about the west's continual reluctance to do anything other than 'condemn' Assad's behavior and its refusal to put into place a trade embargo - or are our economic interests too important to be put at risk?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 09:15 AM

Jim, I responded to your post. The whole Middle East is a territorial dispute.

1) The West, as you put it, does barely enough trade with Syria to make a difference. Syria could stop exporting everything now and it would matter not one jot or tittle to the West.

"Syria Import and Export Indicators and Statistics at a Glance

Total value of eports: $12.84 billion (2010 estimate)
Primary export items: crude oil, minerals, petroleum products, fruits and vegetables, cotton fiber, textiles, clothing, meat and live animals, wheat
Primary Export partners: Iraq (30.22% of total exports), Lebanon (12.21%), Germany (8.89%), Egypt (6.8%), Saudi Arabia (5.04%) and Italy (4.55%)

Total value of imports: $13.57 billion (2010 estimate)
Primary import items: machinery and transport equipment, electric power machinery, food and livestock, metal and metal products, chemicals and chemical products, plastics, yarn, paper
Primary import partners: Saudi Arabia (10.1% of total imports), China (9.95%), Turkey (6.97%), Egypt (6.44%), UAE (4.97%), Italy (4.93%), Russia (4.92%), Germany (4.38%) and Lebanon (4.12%)"

2) I haven't been snotty with you, so shove it. You're taking myopia to new heights.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 09:16 AM

That guest was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 09:38 AM

"The whole Middle East is a territorial dispute."
I don't agree - the Arab Spring is an entirely different ball-game and one from which we could all benefit in terms of improving the situation there.
If it is mishandled there is a risk of the newly ruled states being pushed into the hands of the religious nutters (one of the reasons the Question Time panel gave for not getting involved).
Yesterday's Times article points directly to that fact:
"THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD HAVE ABANDONED US. NOW WE JUST ASK GOD FOR HELP"
My comments on a trade embargo were aimed at The West in general, not Britain alone; to repeat
"The EU is the first trading partner for Syria with total trade amounting to approximately €7.18 billion in 2010. Although the EU–Syrian bilateral trade volume contracted in 2009 by almost 23% in account of the impact of the global crisis, the 2010 trade volume already surpasses the 2008 one. The EU is Syria's biggest trade partner covering 22.5% of Syrian trade while Syria ranks 50th for the EU."
"I haven't been snotty with you, so shove it.
And I haven't been snotty with you - not intentionally anyway; if that is the way my difference with you has come across, apologies.
While I certainly don't agree with you I have always been left with the impression that you listen to and respond to what others have to say - sadly lacking elsewhere.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 09:46 AM

Sorry, Jim. I misunderstood. Pardon me.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 10:05 AM

"Sorry, Jim."
No problem - I think we are all going in circles more than a little - bound to get dizzy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 10:47 AM

Jim, Britain sold Syria NO WEAPONS.
Once a licence for some kind of bullets, but Britain makes none that Syria uses.
If you have evidence that it was siper rounds, or that any kind were actually supplied, show us.
I have seen none.

Almost no criticism by you of the ruthless inhumanity of Assad, or of Russia and China, the suppliers of the shells and rockets raining down on the helpless people.

Instead, you continue to fill the thread with lies and criticism of utterly blameless Britain.
No humanity, just ideology.
A Marxist monster.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 11:12 AM

It would be interesting to hear one comment about the west's continual reluctance to do anything other than 'condemn' Assad's behavior and its refusal to put into place a trade embargo

Russia and China veto every attempt to get UN action.
Any opinion on that Jim?
Russia and China supply all the shells and rockets raining down on the helpless people, and the weapons that fire them.
Any comment on that Jim.

Those poor people need essential supplies.
The IRC is begging for an opportunity to get stuff in.
What would be the point of your "trade embargo" Jim?
How would that stop the daily massacres?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Stu
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 11:29 AM

"Russia and China veto every attempt to get UN action.

Russia and China supply all the shells and rockets raining down on the helpless people, and the weapons that fire them."

Our governments of any hue have made a pact with the devil they can't renege on. They've turned a blind eye to the crimes of China and Russia against their own (and in the case of the Tibetans, other) people to turn a profit, and now both countries can act in their own interests with impunity.

Let's be honest, if Hitler and chums were about today they'd get away with their horrors as long as trade and business weren't affected. That's the nasty, sordid little outcome of unfettered capitalism; it's rendered us morally and ethically bankrupt (because we're the torturers too these days) and it ignores the plight of the little people, such as those being slaughtered in Homs.

We might be firing the guns ourselves, but we're complicit in the act as we stand by doing nothing but talk and letting other brutal regimes dictate our lack of response. What a fuck up.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 01:41 PM

"Let's be honest, if Hitler and chums were about today [I think they are] they'd get away with their horrors as long as trade and business weren't affected. That's the nasty, sordid little outcome of unfettered capitalism; it's rendered us morally and ethically bankrupt (because we're the torturers too these days) and it ignores the plight of the little people, such as those being slaughtered in Homs."

Amen to that!

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 02:29 PM

"Any comment on that Jim."
Have condemned it from the beginning - have also pointed out that the fact that States such as these have the power of veto calls tinto question the credibility of the UN - read what people write.
"Once a licence for some kind of bullets"
Sniper bullets according to you and the other braindead.
However long ago it was (2009) Syria has not been in a shooting war so these missiles have been used to train the snipers killing the people of Homs and/or are the bullets now being used. The decades of torture and persecution that has gone on in Syria indicate that they should never have been sold to them in the first place - the fact that they were implicated Britain in the slaughter
"Those poor people need essential supplies."
These people need to be stopped getting killed first and foremost - a proven method of dealing with dictators is not to call them facile names but to threaten their economy and their power base.
So far you have attempted to rubbish every suggestion made to stop the killing and have come up with nothing yourself - in other wod, (as with the Question Time panel) DO NOTHING.
Jack has just said all that needs to be said - "We might be firing the guns ourselves, but we're complicit in the act as we stand by doing nothing but talk and letting other brutal regimes dictate our lack of response."
"A Marxist monster"
Since you have replaced name calling with argument - you are a racist, a flag waving nationalist - an apologist for selling arms to dictators - in other words a fascist prick.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 02:48 PM

Shock Horror! UK Sells Arms to Repressive Regimes
Posted on February 10, 2012 by Robert Farago
Did you know that arms sales are the UK's number one export? Without its military industrial complex footing the Bill, The Land of Hope and Glory's socialist economy would collapse. No wonder the left-leaning political press (e.g., the guardian.co.uk) aren't exactly up-in-arms about arms sales to repressive regimes. "How can Britain, one of the world's leading arms exporters, honour its stated commitment to promote human rights throughout the world?" the lede leads. "With difficulty," it pronounces. What follows is the journalistic equivalent of a mild rebuke. Kinda like torture via fifty lashes with a wet noodle. To wit:
Vince Cable, the business secretary, has admitted as much. "We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records", he told a crossparty group of senior MPs. "We do business with repressive governments and there's no denying that".
Cable's refreshing admission of what we all know anyway did not satisfy members of the Commons committee on arms export controls on Tuesday night, not least the chairman, the former Conservative defence minister, Sir John Stanley. He accused the government of adopting a "rosy tinted" and "over optimistic" view of "authoritarian regimes".
The MPs were questioning Cable and William Hague, the foreign secretary, about Whitehall's approval of exports, including crowd control ammunition, guns and ammunition to Libya, Bahrain, and Egypt, in the period leading up to the Arab Spring last year. The MPs also raised questions about reports that Saudi Arabia sent troops in British trucks to Bahrain during the protests in the Gulf state last year.
Hey, who knew? Maybe . . . lots of people. Back in April of last year, the right-leaning Daily Mail reported that UK approved £2.3bn in arms exports over 21 months. What's more:
Military export licenses to Libya alone since the start of 2009 totalled £61.3million, according to Department for Business figures.
The UK also awarded Bahrain £6million of licences covering submachine guns, sniper rifles, CS hand grenades, smoke canisters, stun grenades and riot control agents. At least 26 citizens have been killed and 1,000 injured as the Gulf state cracked down on freedom campaigners.
Britain also approved arms licenses totalling £1.7billion to Saudi Arabia, £20.4million to Egypt, £276.9million to Algeria and £52.8million to the United Arab Emirates.
Body armour and night vision goggles have been approved for Yemen, small arms ammunition for Syria, and sniper rifles, aircraft components and armoured personnel carriers for Saudi Arabia.
According to aljazeera.com, the U.S. racked-up $1.1b worth of arms sales to five slightly dodgy Middle Eastern countries in the same time period. I guess you never really know about these Arab Spring fling things. Back to today's Guardian:
Under official UK guidelines, no arms exports would be allowed that would exacerbate regional conflict or be used for internal oppression. "We don't have perfect foresight", Cable told the MPs.
Hague went further. "In the case of Libya no one predicted what was going to happen", he said as though Gaddafi had only turned into a dictator last year after Libyans in Benghazi began to rise up.
As far as Saudi Arabia was concerned, he said the government had raised concerns about its treatment of women and foreign workers. But 99 percent of Britain's exports to the Kingdom consisted of Typhoon jets. "They are not relevant to our concerns about these rights", said Hague.
And Saudi forces were sent into Bahrain last year "to guard installations but not to take part in dealing with unrest in Bahrain so they did not fall foul [of the export guidelines]".
So what did we learn today? Money walks and bullshit talks. No surprise there. Now, can we talk about how official United States arms sales to the Mexican government and police have armed narco-terrorists? No. Good day then.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 02:51 PM

If you have evidence that it was sniper rounds, or that any kind were actually supplied, show us.
I have seen none.

Britain is utterly innocent of this crime.
Those culpable are China, Russia and Assad's regime.

SO WHY, JIM, DO YOU POST SCREENFULS OF TEXT ABOUT BRITAIN AND ALMOST NOTHING AGAINST THEM??

Because they are old Marxists or old Marxists' mates, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 02:56 PM

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 04:19 AM

You have already acknowledged that evidence by descibing the weapons sold to Assad as "sniper bullets",

Not true Jim.
I foolishly took your delusions seriously is all.
There is no such evidence.
None at all, or have you found some?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: pdq
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 03:31 PM

The Russian 7.62 round is older in design that the 7.62 NATO that a private arms seller in England was authorized to sell to Syria.

No proof that the ammunition was actually delivered and the permission to sell was revoked in a reasonable time.

Since the rifles used in Syria are Russian design and use ammunition that is not compatible with the 7.62 NATO rounds authorized, it is really a stretch to blame the Brits for the atrocities committed by Assad.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 06:29 PM

Regardless the source of the bullets, the Syrian government has the weapons to fire the bullets. There is a more likely course here, and that's that arms merchants who give no loyalty to governments--only $$$$--sold the ammo. First, sniper rifles are best being bolt action and single shot. I wouldn't choose an FN for the task given alternatives. Second, without getting too high end, an off-the-shelf .308 will do the job. Add a scope and fire 100 rounds a day and be prepared to change the barrel every three months or so, re-sight and someone is in business. Hell, despite my disagreements with Jim--a guy I like in spite of our differences--none of it is rocket science. It's the mid-East, and there are LOTS of weapons around.

Certainly few 'western' countries have clean hands in terms of screwing other places over. China, India and Russia are equally dirty in this regard, and imo, the UN is a joke, a dangerous joke, but a joke nevertheless.

Keith, I happen to like you also, but there's no need to continue this kind of argument. I see that you and Jim disagree. OK. So what? Syrian people are still being killed and the Syrian government has not changed its philosophy in decades. This shit is not new. The Mukhabarat has been 'exposed' frequently by rights groups, for decades. They have tortured before and they continue to do so. NO surprise. The fuckers should be shot: no trial, no mercy and and no excuse.

And while I'm on a roll, the Americans had better stay at home for a change because while they've been tramping all over the globe saving 'democracy' for everybody else they have lost it at home.

For those who intend to post that 'that makes us just as bad as them', the fact is it makes us worse. Then they know they aren't the baddest mfs on the block. Save your effete ideals for the butchered and murdered. I'm sure they'll have time to listen to you. I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 01:21 AM

999, I started this thread about the worst mass murder of civilians for decades.
I am aggrieved that Jim deliberately derailed it into just another Brit-bashing thread, and that he did it to suit his own political agenda.
I also think it right to expose the lies he used for the purpose.
He stated that Britain supplied arms.
Britain did not.
The guilt in this case is simple and clear cut.
Russia, China, Assad.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 03:22 AM

From BBC site.

"A major world conference is being held in Tunisia to seek a breakthrough in the increasingly bitter Syrian unrest.

The US, Europe and Arab countries plan to challenge President Bashar al-Assad to provide humanitarian access within days to the worst-affected areas. But Russia and China are not attending. "

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 03:39 AM

More from BBC,
"The UN report documents the last three months in Syria, during which, the investigators say, the violence has reached new and terrible levels.

They have evidence that Syrian forces have shot dead women and children, subjected civilian areas to merciless shelling, and tortured wounded protestors in hospital.

These systematic violations were ordered by high ranking figures in the military and government, the report says."

"UK Foreign Secretary William Hague said the international community would be looking at further ways to apply pressure to Mr Assad.

"It is a deeply frustrating situation that people have been dying in their thousands... that the Assad regime has continued to act seemingly with impunity - but I think we can agree to a wider set of measures across a large group of nations," Mr Hague said.

The European Union sanctions on Syria could be tightened further, Mr Hague added."

"Russia and China have faced Western and Arab criticism for blocking a UN Security Council resolution that would have backed an Arab League peace plan for Syria.

Opposition groups claim more than 7,500 people have been killed since the start of the uprising 11 months ago."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 04:10 AM

"Britain is utterly innocent of this crime."
A list of equipment which Britain has sold, and continues to sell to states with (at the very least) a poor record on human rights - innocent my arse.
"Military export licenses to Libya alone since the start of 2009 totalled £61.3million, according to Department for Business figures.
The UK also awarded Bahrain £6million of licences covering submachine guns, sniper rifles, CS hand grenades, smoke canisters, stun grenades and riot control agents. At least 26 citizens have been killed and 1,000 injured as the Gulf state cracked down on freedom campaigners.
Britain also approved arms licenses totalling £1.7billion to Saudi Arabia, £20.4million to Egypt, £276.9million to Algeria and £52.8million to the United Arab Emirates.Body armour and night vision goggles have been approved for Yemen, small arms ammunition for Syria, and sniper rifles, aircraft components and armoured personnel carriers for Saudi Arabia."
"If you have evidence that it was sniper rounds..."
You and your gun-nut friend described them as "sniper rounds" - I took it from past discussions that you had some military experience; your friend is a shooter and has said so in the past.
If they were not as you described - what were they - ornaments for Assads mantlepiece?
The sum spent £300,000 - is a great deal to shell out (pardon the pun) for something that is of no use to the Syrian regime.
The case is a simple one A GOVERNMENT WITH SYRIAN TRACK RECORD - DETAINMENT WITHOUT TRIAL - PERSECUTION - TORTURE - MURDER - LASTING FOR DECADES AND REPORTED IN DETAIL BY AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL, SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN SOLD WEAPONS AND MILITARY EQUIPMENT IN THE FIRST PLACE. YOU HAVE COMPOUNDED YOUR DEFENCE OF THIS SALE WITH THE SUGGESTION THAT THEY SHOULD ONLY BE SOLD RIOT CONTROL EQUIPMENT AND DEFENDING THIS WITH THE BIZARRE EITHER/OR IDEA THAT IF THEY WEREN'T SOLD THIS THEY WOULD HAVE TO BE SOLD SOMETHING MORE LETHAL - THEY SHOULD NOT BE SOLD ANYTHING AT ALL, AND ANBODY WHO SELLS THEM ANYTHING BECOMES AN ACCOMPLICE to THEIR CRIMES - THIS IS PRETTY WELL THE MOST OBSCENE SUGGESTION YOU HAVE MADE, AND WITH YOUR TRACK RECORD....
"I foolishly took your delusions seriously is all."
Stop being pathetic - my "delusions" are documented, you have seen the proof, you accepted it until you saw that it knocked the bottom of your case, then you did a quick about turn.
"Because they are old Marxists or old Marxists' mates, right"
As with your claims that I supported Hamas... et al - if you have one scrap of evidence that I ever supported The Soviet Union or have ever said I am a Marxist - please present it - if not, it will remain what it has been - an attempt to defend your own extremist views by deliberately distorting the views of others
So what have we got now - a racist, a flag waving nationalist - an apologist for selling arms to dictators - and a supporter of a murderous regime by suggesting that they be sold riot control equipment in order to quash opposition to their rule - not a bad CV Keith. "No proof that the ammunition was actually delivered"
No proof that it wasn't, but it was contracted and it was issued with a licence - to a regime with.... I suggest you read the Amnesty International report on human rights abuses in Syria - and some of the other regimes Britain has sold, and continues to sell weapons to.
The Mail, The Telegraph, The Independant and The Guardian have all reported the sale as a done deal, presumably sourced from Reuters, it is included in the official arms sales chart.
There is no earthly reason to believe it didn't take place (I don't count Keith among "earthly")
"I see that you and Jim disagree. OK. So what?"
I feel it important that we know who has been responsible for supporting this carnage for a number of reasons.
As Brits, we are entitled to know what our Government is doing on our behalf.
Our position to criticise others is severely weakened if we have taken part in supplying this regime weapons - no matter what size shape or form.
And most importantly The fact that our government is still actively pimping weapons to states which are not unsimilar to Syria and Libya, makes it possible that what is happening in Homs could well be repeated in Al Manamah, San'a, Riyad.... or wherever Britain has sold or is trying to sell weapons. Surely that is simple logic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 04:19 AM

So, Britain supplied no weapons to Syria.
And, you have no evidence of sniper rounds supplied.
Britain is blameless in the humanitarian catastrophe of Syria.

Why did yo need a whole screenful of text to say that Jim?