BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 12 - 03:23 AM

Telegraph today.

Russia confirmed that it was preparing to send an elite unit of marines to its naval base in Syria on Monday, sharply raising the stakes in its confrontation with the West over the future of the Assad regime.

Russia was particularly unnerved after William Hague, the (British) Foreign Secretary, and other Western officials compared the slaughter in Syria to the civil war in Bosnia in the 1990s, a Western defence official said The planned deployment was designed to send a powerful signal that Russia would not tolerate foreign military intervention in Syria, according to a Western defence source.

It was apparently ordered after the Kremlin came to conclusion that Western powers were preparing to circumvent the United Nations Security Council – where Russia holds a veto – by unilaterally authorising Nato military action in Syria. The source said that Russia had "completely misunderstood" Western intentions.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 12 - 08:01 AM

BBC an hour ago.
UK has made moves to stop a cargo vessel allegedly carrying refurbished Russian-made attack helicopters from completing its journey to Syria while it was about 50 miles (80.4km) off Scotland's north coast.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 03:14 AM

Telegraph today.
"I am pleased that the ship that was reported to be carrying arms to Syria has now turned back apparently towards Russia," Mr Hague said.

"We have in place a European Union arms embargo on Syria. We discourage anyone else from supplying arms to Syria. We have had discussions with Russia about that specifically."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 03:35 AM

"The EU oil embargo of which Britain played a part"
As there is no recorded sale of oil to Britain by Syria, it is puzzling as to exactly what part they played in the embargo and, as has been already pointed out, Syria's oil supply will have been depleted within ten years.
"Syria's oil reserves are being gradually depleted and reached 2.5 billion barrels in January 2009. Experts generally agree that Syria will become a net importer of petroleum by the end of the next decade." - unquote"
Last week it was reported that a six year old girl was gang-raped by five of the government militia - the event was filmed.
Apparently the 'European Arms embargo' includes arms from Europe to help the Syrian people defend themselves from this bestiality.
And still, in the words of the Syrians themselves:
"THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD HAVE ABANDONED US. NOW WE JUST ASK GOD FOR HELP"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 03:45 AM

Oil is by far Syria's biggest export and source of foreign currency.
Your statements Jim refer to proven reserves, but a massive exploration project is underway.
Such things are not undertaken without good evidence of likely success.

Jim, I expect you would like to commend Britain for its action over the helicopter shipment.
No other country has achieved such a result.
The rebels will be heartened and grateful that Britain has not forgotten them.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 04:03 AM

Guardian.
"This is trying to hit the oil that's a critical financial lifeline to the regime," said an EU official.

While the move will barely have any impact on EU energy needs, it is likely to hurt elite business and government circles in Damascus close to the regime of the president, Bashar al-Assad, since Syria's trade relationship with Europe is almost entirely oil-based.

The EU imports only 1.5% of its crude oil from Syria. But 92% of Syrian exports to Europe are energy products. Syria exported crude oil and petroleum products worth €3.1bn to the EU last year, according to European commission figures. Royal Dutch Shell and the French company Total are the two biggest European players in the Syrian energy market.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 06:10 AM

"Jim, I expect you would like to commend Britain for its action over the helicopter shipment."
I damn them all - you includedd for doing nothing practical whatever to stop the slaughter and I would count people like you who not only support that inactivity for claiming it would be wrong to assist them to remove a monster
"I do not favour a military intervention. I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 06:15 AM

You are such a militarist imperialist Jim.

I would only advocate military invasion as a last resort.
I do fear for the minorities.
Any thinking, caring person would.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 06:23 AM

Jim, you just posted "people like you who not only support that inactivity for claiming it would be wrong to assist them to remove a monster" ?

It is a lie.
I have advocted action to remove him from the start.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 08:18 AM

Jim Carroll: "And still, in the words of the Syrians themselves:THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD HAVE ABANDONED US. NOW WE JUST ASK GOD FOR HELP"

...and do you think that they should have waited so long?...or God can't help them?...or won't??...or their 'God' has been replaced by 'religion'?...and we all know that religion, has been, yet another oppressor..............but God isn't.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 01:34 PM

"I have advocted action to remove him from the start."
Not one word - you have persistently advocated doing nothing - you have opposed the only thing that would remove Assad - active opposition in support of democracy in Syria - what the Arab Spring was all about. Your opposition to this is in line with the official British one - the Syrian people cannot be trusted to replace Assad with a leadership acceptable to the west, so it is rght that the world stands by and watches while the massacres continue.
You have even suggested that the perpetrator be provided with suitabl equipment to suppress democratic protest - riot control gear.
You have denied your own statement that Britain supplied him with sniper rifle bullets.
Throughout this thread you have lied and distorted the facts (even those identified by you) and the statements of others - .
Since I have been aware of your presence, you have supported some of the most horrific human rights abuses to take place within my liifetime - the Shatila and Sabra massacres - the Israelis can't have been responsible because they didn't do it; Brievik - must have been insane because he is a Christian racist (while a Muslim guilty of killing people for the same reason) - must have been sane because he was a Muslim.
All a bit of a mess really.
Sorry GFI - didn't understand a word of that - what god? All superstious gibberish and mumbo-jumbo to me I'm afraid.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 02:17 PM

you have persistently advocated doing nothing
Not true.
I have only been hesitant about military intervention
I am surprised that you are so gung ho.

- you have opposed the only thing that would remove Assad - active opposition in support of democracy in Syria
No I have not!
You just made that up!

Your opposition to this is in line with the official British one - the Syrian people cannot be trusted to replace Assad with a leadership acceptable to the west
Lie.
That is not the official or unofficial British line.
The British line is that Assad must go.

so it is rght that the world stands by and watches while the massacres continue.
It would not be and the world has not.
Not the West anyway.
The actions taken by Western countries would have brought Assad down but for Russian intransigence.

You have even suggested that the perpetrator be provided with suitabl equipment to suppress democratic protest - riot control gear.
Non lethal equipment does not suppress protest.
I suggested it was better than lethal bullets but you disagreed.
Assad is not interested in non lethal because he does want to suppress the rising.

You have denied your own statement that Britain supplied him with sniper rifle bullets.
Yes, because it was a mistake.
I do not have any secret knowledge about sniper bullets
I am Keith A not James B!

Throughout this thread you have lied and distorted the facts (even those identified by you) and the statements of others - .
A bit rich in view of the above!
I have not lied on this or any thread.
It is not what I do.
I do not understand why you think it worth doing.

Since I have been aware of your presence, you have supported some of the most horrific human rights abuses to take place within my liifetime - the Shatila and Sabra massacres
Lie, and a really nasty one this time.
Of course I have done no such thing.
No-one would.

- the Israelis can't have been responsible because they didn't do it; Brievik - must have been insane because he is a Christian racist (while a Muslim guilty of killing people for the same reason) - must have been sane because he was a Muslim.
What have those mad statements got to do with me Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 02:29 PM

You have done it again Jim!
Instead of discussing the issue, you attack me, and with false, made up accusations that I feel bound to refute.

Stop doing it!
Stick to the subject.
Even if I really was a monster, just point out where you think my view is mistaken and give your own.

(but give my actual view, and not your imaginary monster's view)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 03:32 PM

Keith, It is a tactic, not a good one, but the only one they know, because their particular political position is built on programmed propaganda, not facts. It's all they got.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 05:11 PM

It is so strange.
Off politics, normal nice people.
Do they know themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 05:36 PM

You never ever get any sensible comment or input from Christmas.

He makes stuff up then persists in belabouring you over things you have never sent and taking you to task for points of view that you have never espoused. When asked to produce quotes to substantiate his lies, he froths, rages and deflects.

I have a question for him.

If he maintains that Assad must be got rid off and even supports that this be done by force. Can he explain why he reserves such venom for the likes of the EU, the UK and the USA for apparently doing nothing to aid the Syrians, but does he not utter so much as a cheep about the actions of the Russians who are doing absolutely everything they possibly can to keep "this monster" (as Christmas refers to him) in power?

Particularly liked this bit of logic - a pity he does not apply it across the board.

"As there is no recorded sale of oil to Britain by Syria, it is puzzling as to exactly what part they played in the embargo"

Oh you mean much the same as:

"As there is no recorded sale of weapons to Syria by Britain, it is puzzling as to exactly what part they played in the massacre of civilians in Homs"

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 03:20 AM

BBC.
UN peace envoy Kofi Annan has said there is international agreement that a transitional government should be set up in Syria.

This could include both members of the government and opposition, he said after talks in Geneva.

Speaking on behalf of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council - the US, UK, France, Russia and China - British Foreign Secretary William Hague said all five were committed to supporting Mr Annan's efforts.

Russia had blocked a provision in Mr Annan's plan that would have called for Mr Assad to step down to make way for a unity government.

Mrs Clinton told reporters after Saturday's talks: "Assad will still have to go... given the blood on his hands."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 03:25 AM

TIME yesterday.

Delegations from Iran, Zimbabwe, Bahrain, Pakistan and Uganda, among many others, came to the (Russian Arms)fair last week, but the Syrian presence was the most controversial. Since the 1950s, when it first became a client state of the Soviet Union, Syria has purchased almost all of its weapons from Russia, making it a cherished customer. Over the past 16 months, Syrian forces loyal to President Bashar Assad have used these weapons to brutally crush a homegrown rebellion, with the death toll now estimated at 14,000, including thousands of women and children. The rest of the Arab world has joined with the West in condemning these massacres, but that has not stopped the flow of Russian arms. Indeed, the Kremlin seems willing to jeopardize its relations with Europe and the U.S. in order to defend Assad and continue to sell him weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 08:40 AM

Guardian today.

Activists say the army and pro-government militiamen killed 200 people in the village on Thursday. The Syrian government blamed "terrorist groups".

Mr Annan accused the government of violating his six-point peace plan.

If the death toll in Tremseh is confirmed, it would be the bloodiest single event in the Syrian conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 08:56 AM

And reports are coming out of chemical weapons being taken out of stockpiles by the Syrian government...


Aren't they considered to be WMDs? I wonder how many have Iraqi markings, and were brought in back in 2002-3?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 03:54 PM

Netanyahu in Israel does nothing to alleviate the vicious Assad regime, he sets an example by his oppression of Palestinians; there are numerous Israelis who would agree with me and if you read Ha'aretz you would find many who went to jail for their views.

The "lets not attack Israel" bromide is sheer propaganda that encourages Assad to do exactly what he does. AIPAC is more powerful in the U.S. than in Israel. There are many Israelis who are reasonable and know what's really going on and can see that one dictator supports another.

Now that we're censuring arms dealers, what about the U.S.?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 05:25 AM


Netanyahu in Israel does nothing to alleviate the vicious Assad regime,

All the problems of the region are caused by Israel. Right?
The Arab Spring was the Arabs turning against their real oppressors, and it was NOT Israel.

What more could Netanyahu to " alleviate the vicious Assad regime" ?
A state of war exists between them.
Israel has already intervened to destroy Assad's nuclear programme.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 05:31 AM


he (Netanyahu) sets an example by his oppression of Palestinians;

Does he?
The population of persecuted people dwindles, like the Christians in Arab lands or in Arab controlled West Bank towns like Bethlehem.

Israeli Palestinians are flourishing and growing rapidly.
None choose to cross a border into an Arab regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 11:05 AM

"None choose to cross a border into an Arab regime"
And there is no reason why they should
Despite Israeli efforts to drive out the Palestinians and take over their land, Palestine is their home. The fact they they should wish to defend their state from an aggressive nuclear power which has proved in the past that they are more than happy to assist other terrorist regimes to become nuclear powers, (such as apartheid South Africa) is to their credit.
Israel is a terrorist state, and the fact that the US has used its power of veto as often as it has in support of their terrorist actions, makes it extremely difficult for the west to criticise the use of a veto by Russia and China in support of Syria.
And still the beat goes on and the United Nations says once again what it will do if Assad doesn't desist from massacring his own people.
How may more massacres before the UN acts?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 01:20 PM

How many more massacres before Russia allows UN to act?
What massacres did US vetoes allow?

Jim, you say there is no reason why Palestinians should flee Israel.
If they were being persecuted, they would flee.
As the Jews fled Arab lands.
As the Christians still do.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 03:15 PM

No intention of entering into one of your vortexes.
Israel is a terrorist state and is recognised as such.
Unless you are prepared to address the fact of America's over-use of the UN veto in defence of Israel and other terrorist states making it vitually impossible to criticise Russia and China without it rebounding as mealy mouthed criticism - which you are obviously not - I'll leave you to your "Israel is innocent because she said she didn't to it guv", and your hypocritical wailing and gnashing of teeth.
The cold fact is that China and Russia have behaved in exactly the same way as the US has in the past, the only difference being which particular terrorist regime was being supported at any given time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 05:26 PM

This thread is about the horror of Syria.
The worst atrocities since Bosnia and Ruwanda.

What has Israel got to do with that horror?
Nothing!
It is blameless, but the old Lefties ignore all the guilty parties to attack it.

US and UK have strived tirelessly to get international acton against Assad.
Russia and China block every move and supply Assad more weapons and ammo.
The old Lefties attack US and UK

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 04:05 AM

"What has Israel got to do with that horror?"
Stringsinger made a remark in passing, you took up the remark in your continuing support for another terrorist state. I merely pointed out that the US's use of the veto in support for Israel and other human rights abusers has made it virtually impossible to condemn China and Russia because they are only echoing the US's past actions - same tactics, different terrorist state.
Now you want to drop that particular hot potato - and who's to blame you?
The US, the UK and the UN are doing exactly - nothing, and the massacres continue unabated, as does the hypocritical wailing and gnashing of teeth from their mindless supporters.
Nothing is done because they, like you "fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls" - a clear argument for keeping that regime in place, with the support of your proposed "riot gear", no doubt.
If this 'nothing' continues to be the (non) response to Assad's murderously criminal behaviour, the end result will be to return Syria to being the viciously dictator-led state it always was, receiving the support from the West that it has always enjoyed.
As Britain's Vince Cable, the business secretary succinctly put it "We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 05:10 AM

You both used this thread about the suffering of Syria as a platform to make the same old attacks against Israel even though Israel is irrelevant.
That is what you Lefties do.
On this thread it is all you CAN do.
The US, the UK and the UN are doing exactly - nothing, and the massacres continue unabated

They are all doing everything they can, but the Lefties can give no credit for it.
Russia and China and Iran are the reason it still goes on unabated.
As old mates, the Lefties just make excuses for them.

No compassion for the suffering.
Just make political capital and try to deflect blame from the guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 05:12 AM

responding to BB's post.

US says it knows that CW weapons are being moved.
Preparing for use or trying to keep them safe from the rebels?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 06:30 AM

Israel is a terrorist state and is recognised as such.
.,,.
By whom, Jim -- apart from professional hide-behind-pretence-of-loving-justice antisemites? It has taken up a position forced on it by the actual terrorist states by which it is surrounded ~~ ones where it's main headline shokshokshok news in all the world media if two of their women are allowed to take part in the Olympics, without a chance of winning because of the ridiculouslwy handicapping clothes they are compelled to wear to compete. The posture into which Israel has been forced by its terrorising neighbours, who have never retreated from their initially expressed 64-yrs-ago determination to "drive it into the sea", is, as I never tire of saying, a grave disappointment to its original adherents & supporters.

But "terrorist" is scarcely the word to be used of about the only sovereign state in the region with any semblance of a democratic government or a C21 civilisation -- except by resolute kneejerk anitisemites, which you have persistently denied being one of, Jim.

I hadn't meant to intervene; but one can only take so much rubbish from those whom one knows to know better really, and are merely flinging insults for hyperbolical effect.

Yes ~~ you, Jim Carroll.

Warmest regards as ever

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 07:32 AM

made it virtually impossible to condemn China and Russia because they are only echoing the US's past actions

But for Russia's veto Assad would have fallen and the lives of thousands of innocents saved.
Specifically which US veto had any consequence remotely approaching those massive atrocities.
My view is that there is nothing that explains or excuses these monstrous crimes against humanity, or those supporters of Assad whose hands are bloody up to their armpits.
Not Israel.
Not US.
Not UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 10:31 AM

"By whom, Jim"
The murder of aid workers, the use of chemical weapons on civilians, the daily nazi-loike humiliation they are put through, the seizure of their homes and land, the Berlin-type wall seperating them from their livelyhood.... and many, many more examples, are more than enough evidence of Israel's terrorist nature, but perhaps this from a bunch of "hide-behind-pretence-of-loving-justice antisemites?" says it better than I can.
Take your double-standard selective racism (nicely displayed in your latest offering) and stick it Mike.
Jim Caroll

Published on Monday, April 1, 2002 by Tikkun Magazine
Israel's State Terrorism
by Lev Grinberg
What is the difference between State terrorism and individual terrorist acts? If we understand this difference we'll understand also the evilness of the US policies in the Middle East and the forthcoming disasters. When Yassir Arafat was put under siege in his offices and kept hostage by the Israeli occupation forces, he was constantly pressed into condemning terror and combatting terrorism. Israel's Stateterrorism is defined by US officials as "self-defense", while individual suicide bombers are called terrorists.
The only 'small' difference is that Israeli aggression is the direct responsibility of Ariel Sharon, Benjamin Ben Eliezer, Shimon Peres and Shaul Mofaz, while the individual terrorist acts are done by individuals in despair, usually against Arafat's will. One hour after Arafat declared his support of a cease fire and wished the Jews a Happy Passover feast, a suicide bomber exploded himself in an hotel in Netanya, killing 22 innocent Jews celebrating Passover. Arafat was blamed as responsible for this act, and the present IDF offensive has been justified through this accusation.
At the same time, Sharon's responsibility for Israeli war crimes is being completely ignored. Who should be arrested for the targeted killing of almost 100 Palestinians? Who will be sent to jail for the killing of more than 120 Palestinian paramedics? Who will be sentenced for the killing of more than 1,200 Palestinians and for the collective punishment of more than 3,000,000 civilians during the last 18 months? And who will face the International Tribunal for the illegal settlement of occupied Palestinian Lands, and the disobedience of UN decisions for more than 35 years?

Suicide bombs killing innocent citizens must be unequivocally condemned; they are immoral acts, and their perpetrators should be sent to jail. But they cannot be compared to State terrorism carried out by the Israeli Government. The former are individual acts of despair of a people that sees no future, vastly ignored by an unfair and distorted international public opinion. The latter are cold and "rational" decisions of a State and a military apparatus of occupation, well equipped, financed and backed by the only superpower in the world.

Yet in the public debate, State terrorism and individual suicide bombs are not even considered as comparable cases of terrorism. The State terror and war crimes perpetrated by the Israeli Government are legitimized as "self-defense", while Arafat, even under siege, is demanded to arrest "terrorists."

I want to ask: Who will arrest Sharon, the person directly responsible for the orders to kill Palestinians? When is he going to be defined a terrorist too? How long will the world ignore the Palestinian cry that all they want is freedom and independence? When will it stop neglecting the fact that the goal of the Israeli Government is not security, but the continued occupation and subjugation of the Palestinian people?
As Israelis in the opposition, we are fighting against our government, but the international support that Sharon receives is constantly jeopardizing our struggle. The whole international public opinion must be reverted, and the UN must deploy intervention forces in order to stop the bloodshed and the imminent deterioration. Israelis and Palestinians desperately need the awakening of the international community's public opinion and a reversal in the global attitude. These are needed both in order to save our lives (literally), and preserve our hope in a better future.
Dr. Lev Grinberg is a political sociologist, and Director of the Humphrey Institute for Social Research at Ben Gurion University

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 11:30 AM

This is a serious thread about serious suffering of real people.
Ten thousand murders.
Murdered by Assad and those who keep him in power.

Why do you post pages about Israel and UK who have nothing whatever to do with it?

Start a thread or reopen one of the dozens already devoted to attacking Israel and UK.
This is about Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 01:31 PM

You introduced Israel into this thread in your very first posting and had referred to is around ten times before I mentioned it - it is you who have used this thread (on the massacre of Homs) to promote the terrorist state of Israel, whie at the same time claiming that it would be wrong to actively protect the Syrian people because they cannot be trusted to replace Assad with someone as favourable to the West.
Just in case you do your usual stunt of denying what you have written:
"Israel is attacked at every opportunity while worse criminals, even those next door, get a free ride."

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 02:26 PM

Depends on one's definition of a 'terrorist state' I suppose, Jim. Would a 'terrorist state' permit an attack on itself as such, in its own public prints by one of its own citizens, an academic at one of its own leading universities like the one {10 years old, I note ~ so not v up to date with regard to the enormities you rubricate above it} you just C&Pd?

Do us all a favour, Jim: just THINK in a manner proportionate to what one knows to be your intelligence ~~ when not distorted by one of your own bête-noir King Charles's Heads. Would any other of your beloved Muslim states in the area [or anywhere else] permit such?

We've been thru all this before, & I shall say no more about it for the nonce ~ esp as, as Keith so rightly points out, it is drift: this thread is about Syria, and it is you who have made it excuse for one of your habitual attacks on Israel: so "Take your double-standard selective racism - antisemitic in your case - (nicely displayed in your latest offering) and stick it" right back to you.

שלם

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 04:29 PM

You are right about something Jim!
I did mention Israel in the OP, asking why you Lefties only want to attack Israel and have nothing to say about worse criminals all around it.
Sure enough, you Lefties insist on bringing Israel into a discussion about Syria, even though it is not involved at all!

Now the lie.
You accuse me of "claiming that it would be wrong to actively protect the Syrian people because they cannot be trusted to replace Assad with someone as favourable to the West."

Completely untrue and made up.
I have never claimed such a thing, and neither has anyone else.
A lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 03:13 AM

Again Annan is begging the Security Council for sanctions.
Will Russia and China allow it this time?
Don't hold your breath.
He is appealing to Russia to stop keeping Assad in power.
BBC this morning,
Mr Annan is expected to urge Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov to put pressure on the Syrian authorities to begin a political transition, although BBC Moscow correspondent Steve Rosenberg says there is little sign that the Kremlin is ready to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 03:57 AM

"I did mention Israel in the OP,"
Yes you did, and you continued to use the suffering of the Syrian people to promote that particular nasty regime.
Israel has been a valid part of this discussion from the outset because you chose to make it such in your initial posting
"Israel is attacked at every opportunity while worse criminals, even those next door, get a free ride."
This has never been about Syria as far as you are concerned.
It has been a vehicle to support your favourite terrorist charity - Israel - want to count how many times YOU have mentioned Israel in this thread?
It has been a means to take a pop at Russia and China (albeit well-deserved) - even though the US has used its power of veto in exactly the same way to defend other human rights abusers and war criminals:
"The United States has used the veto on 82 occasions between 1946 and 2007; and has used its veto power more than any other permanent member since 1972" (Wiki entry - and a fact you have consistently ignored)
It has been a vehicle to show how great Britain is, even though they have done nothing practical to stop the massacres (which have escalated steadily because of the inaction of the UN, the US and the UK), and even though Britain had already sold ammumunition to Assad of the type that was causing the slaughter that was taking place in Homs.
In fairness to Britain; at least they made it clear that they had no intention of becoming involved - a leading British minister said as much on television around the time you started this thread and gave similar reasons as your own for not assisting:   
"I do not favour a military intervention. I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls."
You have offered no suggestions as to how the situation might be resolved - on the contrary, you have consistently slapped down the suggestions of others and given the impression that there is no solution.
Military intervention - as in Libya - nope (see above)
Trade embargo - nope
Arresting Assad's gofer and right-hand man and seizing his considerable London assets - nope
Demanding that the UN consider over-riding the Chinese/Russian veto in order to carry out its constitutional 'duty to protect' the Syrian people - not even acknowledged.
The only practical offering on your part has been to suggest that Assad might be provided with equipment (riot control gear) in order to quash the opposition and bring his people to heel.
Your feigned displays of sympathy (and nothing else) would have done Henry Irving proud!
"Do us all a favour, Jim:"
You do us all a favour Mike and take your double-standard racism elsewere - you really have surpassed yourself this time. Not only have you skulked behind the dead of the Holocaust to defend the Zionist extremism you claim to be opposed to by making all who criticise that extremism "professional hide-behind-pretence-of-loving-justice antisemites", but you have indulged in attacks on the culture of others with your "ridiculously handicapping clothes".
I have no interest in religion, except to be uneasy about the dangers of the toxic mix of the church (any church) and politics. That people choose to adhere to certain religious practices, be they Jewish, Islamic or Christian is no business of mine, and it shouldn't be of yours - shame on you.
I used to respect you - now I believe you to be a double-standard hypocritical racist, little better than the similarly-viewed individual you have consistently chosen to defend from his own idiocy, the only difference being the thin veneer of civilisation your education appears to have given you - must re-read 'Lord of the Flies' sometime!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:50 AM

I asked why you of the Hard Left were silent on Syria but so vociferous about Israel whose supposed crimes pale into insignificance by comparison.

It is because the undisputed monster is an enemy of Israel that Israel has been facing down for decades.
It is because Israel is an innocent bystander.
It is because the old darlings of the Hard Left are supporting the monster and are drenched in the blood of thousands of slaughtered families.
It is because this time it is unequivocal that the Western Powers are the force for good.

In fairness to Britain; at least they made it clear that they had no intention of becoming involved
Lie.
Britain has got involved from the start and has done more than any other to get international action.

Trade embargo - nope
Er, yes actually.
Massive embargoes are in place but flouted by R and C

Demanding that the UN consider over-riding the Chinese/Russian vetoes
They can not over ride them.

Military intervention.
Only a deranged Colonel Blimp would think that more Western boots marching into another Muslim land was a good idea, but you do.
My position is the only sane one, last resort only.

And I am not ashamed of expressing concern for the minorities.
You should be for dismissing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:56 AM

Have just been browsing old threads, Jim. Can scarcely believe your observations around here, re both Israel, other regimes, and me, to have been written by same man as originated the Tommy Tiernan thread a couple of years ago. What on earth has happened to you? Call me racist, you impudent jackanapes!? Pots'n'kettles 2U. In a different mood you would have plenty to say about the absurd dress-codes imposed by Muslim men upon their womenfolk; but if I mention it, it's racist is it?

Fool!*

Traditional greetings

~M~

*{Only I suppose I'd better not say that or I'll be providing you with another of your non-weapons -- you're the individual who once used 'educated' as a term of abuse, I recall.}

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 06:31 AM

"impose"
Imposed being the operative word - I object to all 'impositions' by any religious group and any abuse of their position by the clergy.
"In a different mood you would have plenty to say about the absurd dress-codes imposed by Muslim men"
Whatever my personal opinions of religious customs and dress-codes, I don't think I have publicly attempted to ridicle them - on this forum or anywhere else - unlike you 9please feel free to correct me if this is not the case).
I feel that, while I do find some of these repressive, it would be a total disaster for outsiders like me to dare intervene - it is the affair of members of those religions and of nobody else.
Have just finished two fascinating and extremely moving books by somebody who lived in a Jewish community in pre/post-WW1 Lancashire and was horrified at the effects of fundamentalism on individuals in that community, but as I say, the business of members of that religion - not mine.   
My main reason for considering you a hypocrite and a racist if your double-standards regarding Keith's racism comapred with your own objection to the same racism were it directed at Jews.
Suggest you look at his most recent Zionist rant.
If Israel is not part of this discussion as you have consistently claimed why did you put it in and have constantly referred to it.
If it is part of this discussion, why have you objected to people responding your putting it in
Your latest offering is a Zionist rant - are you the only one permitted to comment on subjects you have put up or can we all comment?
Jim Carroll
BTW - you described a trade embargo as not permissable because it ywould 'harm the Syrian people' - you have now somersaulted just like the tame flag-waving poodle that you are

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 06:51 AM

"Keith's racism" is just what you invent when you have no other reply.

If Israel is not part of this discussion as you have consistently claimed why did you put it in
I did not put it in.
I just made the point that you were vociferous about Israel but silent on Syria.
You responded by being vociferous about Israel, despite it being irrelevant to this issue.
It is an irrational obsession with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 07:12 AM

Russia has rejected pleas for tougher sanctions or for a transition of power.
Is anyone surprised?

Russia China and Iran see the Arab Spring as threatening to them because unpopular, unrepresentative and repressive regimes are being thrown out by their oppressed people.
They see it as a Western plot against them.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 07:33 AM

his most recent Zionist rant.

I assume you mean this.
Which bits are wrong and why is any of it "Zionist" Jim?

It is because the undisputed monster is an enemy of Israel that Israel has been facing down for decades.
It is because Israel is an innocent bystander.
It is because the old darlings of the Hard Left are supporting the monster and are drenched in the blood of thousands of slaughtered families.
It is because this time it is unequivocal that the Western Powers are the force for good.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 09:45 AM

I admit to a negative reaction to Islamism, Jim. Not, note, to Islam, tho that does not strike me as an altogether attractive faith [but then, like you, I consider them all intrinsically nonsensical]; but to IslamISM. You know what that is, & what is the distinction I am making here; so please don't disingenuously pretend that you don't. Islamism is not a race [nor, for the matter of that, is Islam]. So how a distaste for it can define me in any sense as a racist is far from clear to me.

However, let that pass. It is more & more being borne in on me that in such matters as these, regarding the interface of faith & ethnicity, you are just not right bright; you are like a Pavlov's dog responding to irrational stimuli. So I don't propose to argue with you further on such matters. There are more efficient ways of inducing a headache than battering one's head against a brick wall of resolutely misinformed incomprehension.

Keith, if I were you I should do the same. You'll get nowhere against such determined refusal to see sense. Just let him go on chuntering his disapproval to the unheeding four winds to his heart's content.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 05:43 AM

Amnesty International. From their site.

"Whilst Russia continues to block international efforts to find an effective solution to the situation, the people of Syria continue to suffer a bloody cycle of repression and abuse. Many of the weapons previously supplied by Russia and other countries are being used in this assault."

Amnesty International has called for the imposition of an immediate arms embargo aimed at stopping the transfer of arms to the Syrian government, a Security Council referral of the situation to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, and an assets freeze on President Bashar al-Assad and his close associates.(Western countries did all this months ago)

The reports come as crucial negotiations continue at the UN in New York for an Arms Trade Treaty. Russian officials have previously been looking to prevent the treaty from containing strong human rights rules that could help stop future atrocities.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 06:05 AM

(Western countries did all this months ago)
Then why is Amnest International still calling for it to happen - your cut-n-paste is dated July 12th - they must be stupid or something!!
And still the slaughter continues while the "crucial negotiations continue" - perhaps the UN believes it can talk Assad int submission!!
Still waiting for an explanation as to why you believe you can include Israel in your original posting then whinge when others take you up on it!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 06:29 AM

Then why is Amnest International still calling for it to happen
They are calling for Russia to join in Jim.

BBC 23rd March
EU foreign ministers have imposed a travel ban and asset freeze on the British-born wife of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and other family members.

Asma al-Assad is among 12 people added to the sanctions list, which already includes her husband.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 06:43 AM

NYT. August 18th 2011
President Obama, who had faced criticism for not acting more assertively, ordered the freezing of all Syrian assets within American jurisdiction, banned imports of Syrian oil and barred American citizens from having any business dealings with the Syrian government, which the administration once courted in the hopes of improving relations.

He called on other countries to impose their own sanctions,