BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 07:26 AM

Jim,

"do you condemn the ammuntion supplied by Britain"

IF the ammunition was provided by the GOVERNMENT, as was the Chinese and Russian materials, I DO condemn it. If it was by private companies acting within the law, I would say to CHANGE THE LAW.

YOU have stated that degree has no bearing- so I expect you to condemn the Palestinians, and agree that the materials that they use to kill Israeli civilians should be blocked from import into Gaza- ( ie, the Israeli blockade is both justified and REQUIRED), even if you feel they are reacting to other's aggressions- yet you have not yet done so.
This shows you to be a hypocrite, at the very least.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 08:01 AM

Seems like Syria impacts the Iran-Turkey relationship.

Turkey-Syria and Iran

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 08:10 AM

"allegations of a compulsive liar Jim."
Now you appear to have descended to the gutter level of your friend Terrapin. I made nothing up - I presented you with cuttings from the Guardian and the Daily Mail - even a chart showing who Britain trades arms with along with the value of those arms.
Yesterday you hysterically dismissed those cuttings as - what - fakes?, lies? - please elucidate.
Now you appear to have calmed down, (head between the knees worked, did it?) and accepted that Britain has traded in arms with the Assad regime, but are now disputing your own statement that it was sniper rifles that were supplied.
"You made it all up."
No Keith - you did.
And the proposal to sell riot control equipment to Assad - does that still stand - or are you just quoting one of your "experts"?
And you still desperately attempt to drift the thread into your comfort zone - you really are not very good at this, are you?
"If it was by private companies acting within the law"
The Government issued export licences for the weapons supplied - they were British weapons - that's how it works.
Can't wait for Terminus to get back - then I'd have three-of-a-kind - all jokers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 11:08 AM

Syria has all the weapons it needs to commit a new massacre every day.
None of those weapons came from Britain.

Why not just condemn the perpetrators and those who armed them, and leave your outpourings of bile against Britain for a thread where it has some relevance.

Or have we all got it wrong.
Has Britain supplied Syria a single weapon Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:06 PM

A "Christmas" is this the level you are most at ease with?

"do you condemn the ammuntion supplied by Britain or are you with the other pair of shits?"

I do love how our hypocrite "Jim" seizes on "generalities"

Now Jim-lads contention is this:

"these were sniper bullets now being used on civilians in Homs (or, at the very least, have been used to train the snipers who are now randomly slaughtering those civilians)."

Not at all Jim - these "sniper" bullets are now being used by the brave fighters of the free Syrian army in their tireless efforts to defend those Syrian civilians currently being shot by the Alawite bastards loyal to that murderous, Hezbollah sheltering, cretin Assad. As to them being shot randomly, I would venture to guess there is nothing random about being shot by a sniper - quite a deliberate process I would fancy.

On the subject of facts Jim (You would not recognise one if it jumped up and bit you)

Can we examine those Facts of yours:

"Fact- Britain sold sniper rifle bullets to Assad's regime. These are possibly being used to kill civilians, or have been used to train the killers."

That Jim is not a fact but a string of assumptions:
- You are assuming that 7.62 x 51mm rounds were the rounds sold. What evidence do you have of that? Let me see now 2009 was when those rounds were sold, I think that the UK Government would have held onto every 7.62 round they had for their own Army's GPMG's out in Afghanistan wouldn't you?

- The 7.62 x 51mm is/was standard NATO ammunition it is not specifically made as a "sniper" round - something else that you just assumed.

- "These are possibly being used" is another assumption based upon the square root of S.F.A.

- "or have been used to train the killers" another baseless assumption

So on examination there are no FACTS there at all.

"Fact - Despite the obvious nature of the Assad regime you have proposed that it would be acceptable to provide it with the wherewithal to crush the opposition to the regime."

Oh please tell us in detail the nature of Assad's regime and then tell us who is buddies and allies are - don't be shy now.

Hezbollah; Hamas; Iran all staunch allies and friends of this odious Nazi based regime.

The Syrian uprising began on 15th March 2011 so what exactly has either Keith or myself sold to the Assad Government to assist it in crushing the opposition to their regime? I can swear on anything you like that I have not sold a thing to Syria that could be of any use in putting down the current uprising - neither has the British Government.

Another fact that has escaped you, yet some else has pointed out ammunition is not a weapon, the weapon in this case is the rifle, and I promise I haven't sold any to anybody. But perhaps if you think that ammunition is a weapon could you explain the term "Arms & Ammunition", as you contend that would be needless duplication "Arms & Arms"?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:10 PM

And Jim HAS in the past supported the military actions of those supporting Assad:
"Hezbollah; Hamas; Iran "

Thus HE is the one who has shown support for murdering despots, not the British who tried to get the UN to act BUT WERE BLOCKED by Russia and China.

What a scumbag!

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:16 PM

"... the mealy-mouthed apologist hypocrite who supports terrorist states and their armourers."


Jim stands condemned by his own words as a hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:32 PM

I think Jim may have his head up his arse on this, but could we please leave the acrimonious stuff for another time?

Getting arms or bullets is not rocket science. Ya buy them. http://www.gunsinternational.com/Sniper-Rifles.cfm?cat_id=365

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:38 PM

999,

Feel free to inform Jim of this: I reply IN KIND , since to do otherwise is to be treated like shit here on Mudcat.

From my experience with Greg F and others, NO-ONE else is about to call out liars, scumbags, and bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:44 PM

NO-ONE else is about to call out liars, scumbags, and bigots until it directly impacts themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 02:02 PM

We're really not getting anything new here - the reports say Britain sold arms to Syria - show they didn't.
The rest is smoke
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 02:10 PM

Oh, and by the way - I haven't complained about being insulted - I haven't even complained about my mother being insulted - she would have loved the idea of being involved in exposing a bunch of fascist morons 45 years after her death.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 02:21 PM

the reports say Britain sold arms to Syria - show they didn't.

You have provided no "report" or anything else suggesting Britain supplied Syria with one single weapon.
That is because Britain has supplied no single weapon to Syria, while Russia and China have provided thousands of tons of them.

If you are not a fantasist liar Jim, tell us why you believe Britain HAS supplied weapons.
Supplementary question for you.
Should the appalling, repressive regime in Gaza be prevented from obtaining weapons?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 02:34 PM

Jim,

As stated, YOU are the one who refuses to take those who support Assad to task ( Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Russia, and China. YOU have repeatedly supported those entities in the past. To blame US for NOT taking Britain to task, when it tried to stop THOSE YOU SUPPORT from aiding Assad and call us fascist is the height of hypocrisy.

Your mother would be ashamed of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 02:36 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 02:24 AM

Keith
A quick survey of where you have gone here
You open a thread quite rightly deploring the sale of weapons to a despotic dictator during one of the 'Arab Spring' revolts - so far, so good.
When it is pointed out to you that Britain also sold weapons to that dictator, this time to be used on civilians - you squeal ...

WHAT WEAPONS JIM?????

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 03:39 PM

"WHAT WEAPONS JIM?????"
The oness you described as "sniper bullets" Keith
Can't remember whether it was before or after you proposed selling him anti-riot gear
" YOU have repeatedly supported those entities in the past."
Didn't - don't - perhaps you would like to point out where I did?
You on the other hand have been quite vociferous in support of a terrorist state who attempted to sell nuclear warheads to apatheid ruled South Africa around the time it was massacering hundreds of its black citizens - mainly protesting schoolchildren - that goes for all of you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 07:08 PM

So Jim, you destroyed this thread about the suffering in Syria with your accusations of British weapons sales, and it was all made up!
Not one single weapon sold by Britain.
Possibly, but probably not, a few bullets years ago, but certainly none made in Britain, and no weapons at all!

And that is you whole case against Britain, and from someone who has staunchly supported all those vile regimes himself, against Israel, for years.
You have not come out of this well Jim.

BTW, should the appalling, repressive regime in Gaza be prevented from acquiring weapons Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 02:50 AM

"and it was all made up!"
And again, as in other threads, you are reduced to denying the evidence put in front of you.
You have already acknowledged that evidence by descibing the weapons sold to Assad as "sniper bullets", The 'Gun Thug' has acknowledged their existance with his "Snipers have to practice...".
You have persistantly wailed "thread drift" claiming that your "sniper bullets" don't belong in this discussion because they are not heavey weapons - despite the fact that the people going about their daily business (women shopping with their children) are being cut down by your (now claimed as non-existant, despite the fact that it was you who identified them as such) British supplied "sniper bullets".
Crassly, even for you, you have actually wailed "thread drift" on the same posting as your deliberately attempting to 'drift the thread' to Palestine as a diversion.
Palestine has no place on this thread, any of the Arab Spring protests have, yet you have desperately attempted to drag in the former as a smoke-screen for your lack of argument for supplying weapons to murderous dictators.
Not one of you: 'The Idiot', 'The Gun Thug' or 'Weirdie Bruce' has acknowledged the supplying of military equipment and weapons to Gadaffi; (incidently Brucie) - those names are "insults" - "mealy-mouthed apologist hypocrite who supports terrorist states and their armourers" is a pretty fair description of how the three of you have behaved here and elsewhere.   
I have no intention of repeating information I have already produced - "you'll have had your facts and figures" as the ladies of Morningside would say, you have acknowledges those as facts by attempting to explain them away as unimportant (one more time, "sniper bullets" and "Snipers have to practice"); renaging on that acceptance is not going to work - done deal, I'm afraid.
Neither is continually accusing me of not condemning Russia and China - I have and I do, but as far as I'm concerned, this as no more of a crime against humanity than supplying Keith's "sniper bullets" to cut down civilians in Homs (or having supplied the wherewithal to train snipers so they can cut those civilians down more efficiently, if you'd rather).
Demanding the repetition of evidence that has already been produced AND ALREADY ACKNOWLEDGED - ONCE AGAIN "SNIPER BULLETS" and "SNIPERS HAVE TO PRACTICE" IS PART OF YOUR WAR OF ATTRITION AND IT AIN'T GONNA WORK HERE
"YOU are the one who refuses to take those who support Assad to task"
Not me Brucie - it is Keithie who has proposed supplying riot control gear to Assad - you can't get better support for a dictator than that (unless you claim that supplying him with military equipment to cut down civilians hasn't happened, of course) - he has neither acknowledged nor withdrawn that statement, so it stands as open and continued support for human rights crimes as far as I'm concerned.
As far as "Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Russia, and China. YOU have repeatedly supported those entities in the past", it has no place here, but I HAVEN'T AND I DON'T - BUT IF YOU BELIEVE OTHERWISE, FEEL FREE....
And incidently - repeated reference to my mother only serve to illustrate what a spinlelessly unprincipled and cowardly little shit you really are - please continue - as I said, she would have been delighted to have been involved.....
"You have not come out of this well Jim."
Matter of opinion Keithie, but it's you who will continue to be the one who suggested arming a murderous dictator with riot gear to suppress demands for democratic changes.
Now, if there is nothing else - back to my book.
Jim Carroll
PS Sorry this is so long Keithie - perhaps you can get somebody to read it for you!

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 04:19 AM

You have already acknowledged that evidence by descibing the weapons sold to Assad as "sniper bullets",

Not true Jim.
I foolishly took your delusions seriously is all.
There is no such evidence.
None at all, or have you found some?

If we have all remembered wrongly your supporting those regimes in your copious Middle East postings, make liars of us by showing one word of criticism you have ever posted pre-2011.
I say there are none Jim.
You are a liar and a hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 06:53 AM

There is not one single word of substance in what you have written, not one scrap of evidence to show I am wrong NOT ONE SINGLE SCRAP - JUST DENIAL
You have your evidence - you have acknowledged it with your own claim of "sniper bullets", as has Two-Gun Terry with his "sniper practice" - you even allude to it with your "a few bullets years ago".
I don't give a toss how long ago these bullets were sold - these people are feudal despots who should never have been supported in any way, five weeks, months, years or decades ago - and as for suggesting that these monsters could be sold riot control gear....
You avoid answering about trade with Gadaffi - weapons were being delivered to Libya while the protests were taking place - Britain is still trading with Bahrain, despite the fact that is more than a candidate for reform there, and should that happen, again protesters will be shot down by British weapons - even the Daily mail has expressed qualms about that - but not you gang of comedians.
"make liars of us by showing one word of criticism you have ever posted pre-2011"
No Keith - you make a liar of me by showing one word I have ever posted in their support - and that goes for the other two clowns.
Take your sewer morality and stuff it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 07:47 AM

"So you intend to continue to ignore the horrors of Homs brought about by sniper rifles sold by Britain - specifically for use on the civilian population" - Jim Carroll(14 Feb 12 - 05:39 AM)

WHAT sniper rifles sold by Britain? THERE WERE NONE

You have stated specifically that "BRITAIN" as in the UK Government sold arms to Assad's regime in Syria that were being used to kill, nay "slaughter" Syrian citizens in Homs - All Keith, myself and others have done is to point out that that is totally untrue and a complete and utter misrepresentation - as usual you are talking out of your arse.

"The 'dirty secret' of British arms sales to Libya just months before Gaddafi slaughtered pro-democracy protesters" - Jim Carroll (15 Feb 12 - 05:20 AM)

What has that to do with the subject under discussion? Diversion "Christmas", attempting to draw peoples attention away from the fact that you have boobed?

British "Arms Sales"?? You come up with:

Yemen - Body armour and night vision goggles = Arms (You are joking aren't you?

Syria - Small arms ammunition (or in your terms small arms arms) sold in 2009 current killing started in Syria on 15th March 2011 - No weapons sold to them at all.

Saudi Arabia - Sniper rifles; aircraft components and armoured personnel carriers.

"You have described opposition to the selling of weapons to a brutal murderous regime as Britophobia." - WHAT WEAPONS??

"There is horror in Homs at present - its people are being slaughtered by a despotic thug - with weapons sold to him by Russia, China and Britain" - I ask again WHAT BRITISH WEAPONS??

"I doesn't mastter if it's approved or not - it has been sold to a state which is massacring its own people."

Rather disingenuous Jim and a total misrepresentation of the facts - small arms ammunition(small quantity at that, not sold by the British Government) sold in 2009 (nothing since)to a state that started cracking down on protesters two years AFTER the sale had taken place.

Tell me Jim where was this Government crystal ball with it's two year look-ahead in 2006? Must have been in for a service eh? Otherwise the financial crisis might have been averted.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 09:04 AM

You have your evidence
What Jim?

Has Britain sold any actual, lethal weapons to these client states of yours?
e.g. tanks, guns, and bombs like China and Russia supply them with barely a word against from you?

And will you acknowledge the millions spent for our service people to fly actual combat missions to protect Libyan civilians?

And should the Gaza regime be allowed to acquire weapons Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 09:47 AM

Whether it was rifles or ammunition (the article says "small arms") it was sold to a Middle Eastern despot who is now in the process of slaughtering his people (a sniper rifle is little more than an ornament without ammunition).
It was also the case that sniper rifles and tear gas were sold to Gadaffi and delivered while the protests were taking place - are we to hear any condemnation of this from you pair?
These are both cases of weapons being sold to despotic killers and licenced by the British government - and this is what you continue to support by denial. I ask again - in the experience of a gun-nut, how many people can £300,000's worth of ammunition kill - or more to the point (from your own analysis) HOW MANY CIVILIANS ARE LIKELY TO BE KILLED BY SNIPERS WHO HAVE BEEN TRAINED USING SUCH AMMUNITION.
It is not me who is defending terrorist regimes - it is you pair of turds.
"where was this Government crystal ball with it's two year look-ahead in 2006?"
These people are undemocratic despots who should not at any time be provided with weapons to back up thier despotism - haven't we learned this from Britain having supplied parts "to ensure that Mugabe's Hawk jets were kept in the air."
Are you putting up the same argument for the present sale of arms to Bahrain or are we to wait for the slaughter to begin there?
"China and Russia supply them with barely a word against from you?"
The more this is repeated, the bigger this lie becomes - I condemned all arms sales to oppressive and unstable, undemocratic regimes at the beginning, the difference is I include British arms sales in that statement - you pair do not.
I assume we have now abandoned the accusation that I have supported "Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Russia, and China. YOU have repeatedly supported those entities in the past". I also assume that Keith's proposed support for Assad by supplying him with riot control equipment still stands?
What - no insult for my mother Terminus; she will be disappointed!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 10:19 AM

"I assume we have now abandoned the accusation that I have supported "Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Russia, and China. YOU have repeatedly supported those entities in the past"."




No, I have not abandoned that claim, as you have shown you will only criticize Israel and Britain, and make NO COMMENT about the far greater crimes of others. You are like a person demanding to execute a person who spits on the sidewalk, while letting a known murderer go free without comment.

Since YOU HAVE SUPPORTED Hamas in the past ( see the threads on Gaza) YOU ARE NOW IN THE POSITION YOU CLAIM Britain is in- YOU SHOULD NEVER have supported them in the past BECAUSE OF THEIR PRESENT ACTIONS. YOU are applying that to Britain, therefore I am justified in applying it to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 10:29 AM

The more this is repeated, the bigger this lie becomes - I condemned all arms sales to oppressive and unstable, undemocratic regimes at the beginning
No. You made the anodyne, blanket condemnation, but the singled out Britain for attack although by far the least offender.

I assume we have now abandoned the accusation that I have supported "Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Russia, and China.

No.It stands. We all remember you doing it.

You could show that you are not prejudiced against Britain by saluting Britain for actively defending Libyan civilians from Gaddafi's tanks and guns, and for the fact that those tanks and guns were not supplied by Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 11:43 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 11:49 AM

"Since YOU HAVE SUPPORTED Hamas in the past ( see the threads on Gaza) "
Post the informastion please
I do not support any organisation that is religion driven and I have consistently said so - that includes Moslem, Zionist, Christian... whoever
I have said that ordiinary Palestinians need protection from their terrorist-state neighbours (especiailly those that supprort racist regimes by offerng to sell the nuclear warheads -and as things stand, that protection has to come from their elected government - whatever I might think ofits policies - and that is the only view I have expressed on Hamas I have never at any time supported, or even mentioned Hezbollah, and I certainly have never supported Iran, Russia or China in any shape or form - if you have any evidence to the contrary, please present it or ram it up your lying holes!
"We all remember you doing it.
" you can't even remeber who told you to caim "all male Pakistanis...."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: pdq
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 12:15 PM

Isn't it time to send Jim Carroll back to the Murrooghtoohy Home for the Bewildered?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 12:46 PM

Any progress on finding that quote lads?
"Isn't it time to send Jim Carroll back to the Murrooghtoohy Home for the Bewildered? "
Isn't it time you said something intelligent other than the snide snippets which seem to be the total output from what passes for your brain?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 01:55 PM

You are safe Jim.
No-one is likely to go trawling through all your many and massive posts on Israel and its despicable neighbours.

If you are so confident, you are passing up a wonderful opportunity to make liars of us all.
Funny how all your readers agree though.

You could show your contempt for Hamas by condemning anyone trying to get weapons to them.
I have mentioned that a few times now.

And, you could show that you are not prejudiced against Britain by saluting Britain for actively defending Libyan civilians from Gaddafi's tanks, rocket launchers and guns, and for the fact that those tanks, rocket launchers and guns were not supplied by Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 02:42 PM

"No-one is likely to go trawling through all your many and massive posts on Israel and its despicable neighbours."
What you are trying to say Keith is that you've spent the last hour or so dredging your way though them to find my support for Hezbollah, Hamas, China and Russia - and have utterly failed.
You have my attitude on religion and politics - you have always had it - it has never changed - but that hasn't stopped you or your half-witted friends from lying about it.
Don't suppose it's worth my asking for an apology - no? didn't think so.
What a bunch of brain-dead tossers!
I would gladly discuss Palestine with you but I don't think I could take your whining and snivelling "thread drift" at this time of night.
Don't suppose you'd care to discuss the morality of supplying weapons and ammunition to states like Tanzania, Libya or Syria - no? Didn't think that one was a goer either.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 04:28 PM

Syria Jim.
Britain supplied NO WEAPONS AT ALL.
Which part of that do you not get?
You made it up.
It was a lie.
Others supplied lethal kit by the thousands of tons.
They got barely a word.
This was a thread about suffering people, and you made it into just another Brit basher.

If you do not support those vile regimes surrounding Israel, you could show your contempt for Hamas by condemning anyone trying to get weapons to them.
I have mentioned that a few times now.

And, you could show that you are not prejudiced against Britain by saluting Britain for spending millions actively defending Libyan civilians from Gaddafi's tanks, rocket launchers, RPGs, aircraft and big guns, and for the fact that those tanks, rocket launchers, RPGs, aircraft and big guns were not supplied by Britain.

WIIL YOU JIM?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 03:11 AM

Not waving but drowwning - bye-eee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 04:02 AM

No-one thought you were waving Jim.
You have spectacularly and publicly drowned yourself in a wave of delusions, lies and prejudice, and I have enjoyed watching you do it to yourself.
It is just a shame that this thread was prevented by you from highlighting the tragedy in Syria, for which Britain is TOTALLY BLAMELESS AND ONE OF THE GOOD GUYS, as in Libya.

There are some lies even you can not tell!
You were congenitally incapable of pretending not to support all those regimes when it came to not supporting the one in Gaza.
You could not pretend to be objective enough to recognise the outstanding achievements of Britain in this.

You have ruined this thread, but I am so glad I gave you this opportunity to reveal your true nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 04:17 AM

You have deliberately, openly and obviously lied about another member of this forum.
You have proposed the Britain should arm a despot (who is still in the process of slaughtering his people,) with anti-riot gear in order to quash their protest
You have objected when it is pointed out that some of the sniper bullets now cutting down civilian men women and children on the streets of Homs (or went into the training of the snipers) came from Britain.
And last, but not least by any means, you are attemting to divert attention away from the Part Britain played in arming Colonel Gadaffi - today of all days
Hot off today's press, from the (no doubt lying) Conservative Daily Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8786897/How-Britain-courted-armed-and-trained-a-Libyan-monster.html
not forgetting:
http://rt.com/news/uk-british-arms-gaddafi/
or:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/mar/01/eu-arms-exports-libya

You are a reactionary, extreme right-wing mess; why on earth should I, or anybody feel the need to justify themselves or defend their opinions from your lies and distortions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 05:03 AM

You have objected when it is pointed out that some of the sniper bullets now cutting down civilian men women and children on the streets of Homs (or went into the training of the snipers) came from Britain.
Lie or delusion Jim?

It is only true that a licence was issued, to someone, years ago for a few weeks supply of some kind of bullets.
They probably were never supplied (those who supply the weapons also supply the ammunition) and they were certainly not British made anyway.

If you do not support those vile regimes surrounding Israel, you could show your contempt for Hamas by condemning anyone trying to get weapons to them.
I have mentioned that a few times now.

And, you could show that you are not prejudiced against Britain by saluting Britain for spending millions actively defending Libyan civilians from Gaddafi's assault rifles, tanks, multiple rocket launchers, RPGs, aircraft and big guns, and for the fact that those assault rifles, tanks, multiple rocket launchers, RPGs, aircraft and big guns were not supplied by Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 06:43 AM

From Jim's telegraph piece.
Last week, a spokesman for the DSO insisted it "did not export equipment where there is a clear risk it could be used for internal repression".

NO WEAPONS supplied AT ALL.
Just a system fro command and control.
Right Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 01:14 PM

Jim Carroll
"Despite the warnings from HRW and other organisations of a worsening rights situation in Bahrain, the Foreign Office's own statistics reveal that the number of arms exports licences continued to increase in 2010 from 34 to 42 with no licences being refused. Arms exports to Libya, where lethal force has already been used against demonstrators, appear to have followed a similar pattern with exports last year including tear gas, and £3.2 million worth of ammunition including for crowd control..
Denis MacShane, a former Labour minister, said: "We should be suspending all arms exports used to repress pro-democracy protests. The idea that British weapons could be used to fire on and injure children makes me feel ill."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 01:31 PM

Jim Carroll
British arms exports to Libya      
government figures show export licences for £3.4 million

sales increased dramatically at the end of last year with a lot of licences granted for "crowd control ammunition" and tear gas.

On 26th February 2011, the European Union banned the supply to Libya of arms, ammunition and related material.
In addition to the UN measures, the Council also prohibited trade with Libya in equipment which might be used for internal repression.
However, up until this point, we and others were making a lot of money selling arms and military equipment for internal repression.
Military exports increased dramatically in the last months of published figures, selling over £8million. There appears to be a lot of licences granted for `crowd-control`.
The most recently published show that in 2010, Britain exported directly to Libya:
all-wheel drive vehicles with ballistic protection, combat vehicles
ammunition for wall and door breaching projectile launchers
crowd control ammunition and tear gas/irritant ammunition as well as "training tear gas/irritant ammunition", anti-riot/ballistic shields,smoke canisters, smoke hand grenades, stun grenades
sniper rifles, assault rifles, silencers and small arms ammunition
components for: combat aircraft, machine guns, military small arms training equipment, semi-automatic pistols, sniper rifles, multi-role missiles, optical target surveillance equipment and surface-to-air missiles
military: cameras, vehicles, software, communications and infrared/thermal imaging equipment and military small arms training equipment
technology for the use of military: vehicles and communications equipment, target recognition training equipment, software for the simulation of military operation scenarios
laser rangefinders and optical target surveillance equipment
military equipment was also sold to France and Italy who then sold it onto Libya.
A mass sale also took place in mid-2009 of over £12million spent on just:
combat shotguns
crowd control ammunition
equipment for the use of military communications equipment and shotguns
military communications equipment
military helmets
small arms ammunition
tear gas/irritant ammunition
ammunition for wall and door breaching projectile launchers, small arms ammunition and more tear gas/irritant ammunition all listed as for training
The Libyan government seems to have used Britain to help build a stockpile in readiness for protests. Now both sides are using our weapons on each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 02:46 AM

In addition to the UN measures, the Council also prohibited trade with Libya in equipment which might be used for internal repression.

The last Labour government notoriously cosied up to Gaddafi for reasons that probably seemed good at the time.
I was critical here of the deal involving the Lockerbie bomber.
No peep from Jim.
British policy is that it does not sell equipment that can be used for internal repression.
There are obviously grey areas, but that policy makes us better than most of our competitors.

Non-lethal crowd control equipment does not crush protest.
That is why Gaddafi, Hamas and Assad use old fashioned bullets on protesters.
Bullets kill and discourage.
Tear gas disperses one protest but changes no minds in favour of the government and they all live to continue the work.
The protest gets global coverage and grows and spreads.

If you REALLY do not support those vile regimes surrounding Israel, you could show your contempt for Hamas by condemning anyone trying to get weapons to them.
I have mentioned that a few times now.

And, you could show that you are not prejudiced against Britain by saluting Britain for spending millions actively defending Libyan civilians from Gaddafi's
tanks,
rocket launchers,
RPGs,
aircraft and
big guns,
and for the fact that none of the above were supplied by Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 03:20 AM

....and, you could acknowledge that your claim that Britain supplied weapons to Syria was made up, and that Britain is blameless for the horrors there, unlike others.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 04:21 AM

"The last Labour government"
And the "last Labour Government" was what..... French, German, Chinese, Russian.....? You appear at long last to be coming around to the fact that a BRITISH GOVERNMENT supported Gadaiffi and supplied him with the wherewithal to kill Libyans - in the form of: combat shotguns, crowd control ammunition, equipment for the use of military communications equipment and shotguns, military communications equipment, military helmets, small arms ammunition, tear gas/irritant ammunition, ammunition for wall and door breaching, projectile launchers, small arms ammunition and more tear gas/irritant ammunition.
What the **** does it matter which govenment it was - especially as Cameron is still pimping military equipment at arms fairs in the Middle East in order to sell to despots, including to Bahrain, whose people took part in 'Arab Spring' protests.
I don't remember any shrieks of protest from the opposite benches at a time when the Libyan deals were being brokered, perhaps you could put up a link to show there was.
I can't help but notice that you have attempted to blank out the part played by Britain in grooming Gadaffi's son to take over from his father - a non-event apparently, as far as you are concerned.
"and, you could acknowledge that your claim that Britain supplied weapons to Syria was made up"
No - it was your claim that what Britain supplied to Syria was "sniper bullets" which either went into the training of the people who are now using them, and/or are being used at the present time on men, women and children in "The Horror of Homs", as you so aptly describe it. I am not aware that Syria has been in a shooting war with anybody recently and could not have used them up other than in training, or actually on their own citizens - what's to acknowledge?
There is nothing whatever "made up" about these facts - they are documented, fully reported and put up on this thread for all to see. You have seen them yourself; you described the equpment supplied as "sniper bullets" - "SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION FOR SYRIA, That would be for the sniper rifles Jim," - you now appear to be dismissing the evidence of your own eyes.
In addition to this YOU HAVE PROPOSED HERE THAT IT WOULD BE PERMISSABLE TO SUPPLY ASSAD WITH "ANTI-RIOT EQUIPMENT (FOR WHICH I HAVE BEEN, IN YOUR OWN WORDS, "BANGING ON ABOUT" FOR YOU TO ACKNOWLEDGE AND JUSTIFT - WITHOUT SUCCESS) THIS IS TANTAMOUNT TO SELLING A DICTATOR EQUIPMENT TO CRUSH A PRO-DEMOCRACY MOVEMENT.
The only "making up" that has gone on here is the suggestion that I have supported Hamas, et al, in order to deliberately drift the thread away from the uncomfortable facts (which you and your three cronies desperately searched for and failed to find - as if it would make the slightest difference to the argument) You were one of the gruesome threesome who lied about this "No. It stands. We all remember you doing it".
The other two slimeballs have had the good sense to slither back into their holes - I suggest you do the same.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 04:31 AM

Forgot:
"And, you could show that you are not prejudiced against Britain by saluting Britain"
The Queen - gawd bless 'er!
You pompous flag-waving little prat
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 05:53 AM

I don't remember any shrieks of protest from you either Jim.
I don't remember you ever criticising Libya, Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah=, Jordan Egypt or any so-called revolutionary Arab government prior to 2011.
Because you never did.
Just endlessly criticised Israel, Britain and USA.
And yes, if you were not just driven by prejudice, you could salute the good while criticising shortcomings.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 06:25 AM

"I don't remember any shrieks of protest from you either Jim."
They didn't think to ask me Keith - if they had have done I would have ordered them to stop selling arms to fascist dictators immediately, but there you go!!!
"I don't remember you ever criticising Libya....."
I don't remember you criticising Viet Nam, Korea, The Wars of the Roses, the Seige of Waterford......
I don't remember the subjects ever coming up - perhaps you'd like to point out where I participated in any such discussions and supported any of them - you have failed dismally to do so over Palestine.
I have never supported a religious-influenced regime as you have lyingly claimed - you, on the other hand fanatically supported the terrorist state that has helped massacre thousands of refugees, ethnic cleansed villagers out of their homes, annexed land, built a Berlin-type wall through Arab homesteads, attempted to starve and and humiliate a whole people with a blockade, slaughter aid workers, used heavy artilery and chemical weapons in built-up areas.... and attempted to sell nuclear warheads to a racist regime at the time as they, the South African apartheid regime, were slaughtering schoolchildren.
You continue to push a thread-drift, having whined endlessly about others doing so (when we haven't) in order to avoid justifying, explaining or even acknowleging the support for despotic regimes with supplys of military equipment - which is the subject you started with this thread.
Answer or refute one single point I have made about Britain's involvement in the arms trade - don't thread drift - the Arab Spring countries will do nicely thank you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 06:38 AM

I don't remember the subjects ever coming up
The dealing with Gaddafi WAS debated here.
The Middle East was endlessly debated here.
I criticised some of those regimes.
YOU HAVE NEVER CRITICISED ANY OF THEM!
Just Israel, Britain and USA

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 07:27 AM

Now you are flailing around with baseless accusations
You are trying to claim my support for religious regimes in debates I have not taken part in - answer the queations and stop thread drifting - to use your own quote
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 09:14 AM

Britain had previously expelled all Libyan diplomats and co-operated with USA in attacks on Gaddafi.
When he put out peace feelers, should they have been rejected out of hand?
You express outrage now, but did not at the time.
Do YOU remember ever criticising Libya, Hamas, Egypt, Syria etc. pre 2011?

If you REALLY do not support those vile regimes surrounding Israel, you could show your contempt for Hamas by condemning anyone trying to get weapons to them.

And, you could show that you are not prejudiced against Britain by commending Britain for being blameless and a force for good on Syria, and for spending millions actively defending Libyan civilians from Gaddafi's
tanks,
rocket launchers,
RPGs,
aircraft and
big guns,
and for the fact that none of the above were supplied by Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 04:26 AM

You have desperately attempted to prove my support for extremist governments by trawling my postings for something I have written - you and your three friends (including the one who saw fit to hurl his obscenities at my mother, bringing this argument down to the level it is now at) failed dismally Bizarrely you now appear to be attempting to prove your case with something I HAVENT SAID
You are the only one here who has supported a terrorist regime in its attempt to persecute and murder its people font color=red>"If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water. It would not be such a crime to supply such things"
".....defending Libyan civilians from Gaddafi's"
As either the Daily Mail or the Daily Telegraph pointed out (can't remember which) - thanks to the fact that Britain supplied Gadaffi with military equipment, both the Libyan government forces and the rebels were fighting each other with weapons supplied by Britain - that is what the Libyan people have to be thankful to Britain for
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 11:26 AM

"What - no insult for my mother Terminus; she will be disappointed!"

No she won't "Christmas"- not if what you stated was true - but there again very little of what you ever state is true or anywhere even remotely close to it.

The ONLY thing "that ordiinary Palestinians need protection from" "Christmas" are those out and out thieves and bandits who have laid claim to being their leaders since 1921. Had they done any of the following Gaza would be richer than Monaco today (1st in HDI index; GDP (PPP) $6.888billion total/ $186,175 per capita; GDP (nominal) $6.581billion total/$172,676 per capita)

- Accepted the 1947 UN two-state plan at the same time as the Jews in Palestine did
- Formally recognised the State of Israel and its right to exist at any time during the last 63 years
- Actually used the billions given them in aid to benefit the lot of the people, instead of perpetuating a war that they simply cannot win.

"You have objected when it is pointed out that some of the sniper bullets now cutting down civilian men women and children on the streets of Homs (or went into the training of the snipers) came from Britain."

There is not one shred of evidence to back up that contention of yours "Christmas" - still sticking to that "small arms arms" thing I see.

To pursue this fable of yours, into a thread about what is going on in Homs, Syria you have introduced by way of diversion and deflection - Libya, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Zimbabwe, Tanzania and Bahrain - Where are you headed next Jim-Lad?? It won't matter because one thing is certain - Britain sold no weapons to Syria.