BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 09:33 AM

"Amnesty International has called for the imposition of an immediate arms embargo aimed at stopping the transfer of arms to the Syrian government, a Security Council referral of the situation to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, and an assets freeze on President Bashar al-Assad and his close associates."
It has been persisitently suggested on this thread that Assad's gofer with properties in London, should have all his considerable assets seized
- your response
"Unless he commits a crime, he can not be touched or his assets seized."
Now, it appears, it is permissible to seize them - what's changed - and has the British government seized them - if not, why not?
Why has it taken so long to take this sort of action and why have you opposed it until now - until them upstairs give the nod, no doubt.
When are you going to work some of this out for yourself instead of waiting to be told what to think?
And the reason you are allowed to discuss Israel on this thread, but the rest of us are not is........?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 10:54 AM

why have you opposed it until now

Me oppose anything?
I have been advocating action all along and MY anger and fury has been directed against those responsible for blocking international action, and undermining all the action that has been taken, and by that permitting and encouraging Assad's monstrous crimes to continue.
China and Russia.

Meanwhile, you Jim post pages and pages trying to implicate Britain, disparage the West, and now to attack Israel again.

You deflect blame from the guilty and bloody, while attacking those doing all in their power to get Assad deposed.
You are Assad's friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 01:10 PM

I repeat - your response to the suggestion that his assets be seized
"Unless he commits a crime, he can not be touched or his assets seized."
Your response to unilateral action to stop Assad
"I do not favour a military intervention. I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls."
The "guilty and bloody," are those who have cinically stood by and watched
Far from "deflecting from blame" it is you who has hidden behind the eexcuse of the veto (even to the extent of refusing to acknowledge the fact that abuse of the veto by the US has put the West in a position where it is virtually impossible for them to condemn the Russian and Chinese for acting exactly the same - same actions different terrorists.
They are all cynically murdoerous bastards, as are those who excuse their behaviour.
And still you dodge all the evidence put to you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 01:46 PM

I have not opposed any action against Assad, merely pointing out difficulties.
I have advocated action and, UNLIKE YOU JIM, deplored the blocking of that action by your old Hard Left friends.
Military intervention?
Only a mad militaristic maniac would support that except as a last resort.
(But YOU do Jim. Right?)

The veto is not an excuse.
It has prevented Western powers from taking the action needed to depose Assad and stop the horror.
How about ONE WORD OF CONDEMNATION of those vetoes Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 03:15 PM

Once again I find I am defending myself.
This should be about the issue of Syria, not me.
Instead of attacking me Jim, tell us your opinion of the initiative from the Western nations for the Security Council to strengthen sanctions, and of Russia's decision to oppose it and veto it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 02:47 AM

Kofi Annan has delayed the vote on the resolution by the Western powers for more sanctions, hoping to persuade Russia not to veto it.
Russia's main objection is that it might lead to military intervention.
I support the resolution and find Russia and China's attitude despicable.
Anyone agree?
Jim?

Meanwhile events on the ground may herald the beginning of the end for Assad.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 03:46 AM

"This should be about the issue of Syria, not me."
Not you Keith - what you say.
Supply Assad with anti-riot equipment
Don't help the Syrians overthrow Assad because of what they might do to Christians and therefore are not to be trusted.
Britain and the US are doing all they can to help - they are not, but they would if Syria had significant supplies of oil.
It was ok to sell Assad small arms ammunition even though he had been long exposed by Amnesty International as a torturing and murdering dictator.....
Your expressed sympathy for the Syrians is a sham - you have offered no suggesttion of a solution to the massacres (except the riot equipment) and have attempted to slap down anybody who has.
You have attempted to silence an overview of the situation - Britain selling despots weapons after the Arab Spring had begun.
You have labeled as 'thread drift' subjects you put in your first posting, attempting to silence discussion on your own statement.
All of which makes your pathetic attempts to label opponents of your one-man campaign "maniacs" or "friends of Assad" the desperate shit that it is. YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS DEFENDED THE SELLING OF MILITARY EQUIPMENT TO BE USED AGAINST THE SYRIAN PEOPLE - AND HAVE EVEN SUGGESTED SUPPLYING EVEN MORE.
Want any more - plenty do choose from?
What do I think of the latest "strengthening of sanctions"?
Sanctions have made not one iota of difference so far - Assad is getting his support from Russia, China and Iran, and will continue to do so until the UN act on their constitutional 'Duty to Protect' clause and stop hiding behind Russia and China as an excuse not to.
An interesting article in The Times yesterday outlining the consequences of non-intervention by Amir Taheri - researcher and author on Middle Eastern affairs:
"The debate is not about the right, but the duty to intervene. Not to intervene would mean repeating the mistakes that caused the death of millions in Rwanda, the Congo and former Yugoslavia.
Turkish and Arab leaders tell me that they would be ready to set up safe havens and humanitarian corridors providing the US stops fooling around with "leading from behind" and takes the lead to set up at least one no-fly zone with help from a coalition of the willing".
Ironically, Israel is (quite justifiably) in a panic over what is happening in Syria.
If the the only military resistance remains in the hands of rebel groups there is a danger that Syria's large stocks of chemical weapons could fall into the hands of Hezbollah - leaving the Middle East...... where exactly?
I utterly condemn Russia's and China's veto - I have from the beginning, but I also condemn those who continue to hide behind that veto in order to do what they have said they would do right from the outset ABSOLUTELY NOTHING PRACTICAL TO STOP ASSAD - FOR CYNICAL POLITICAL REASONS - NO OIL, NO HELP.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 04:25 AM

First, the lie.
I have NEVER said "Don't help the Syrians overthrow Assad because of what they might do to Christians and therefore are not to be trusted." and I am pleased that my country and others HAVE been helping them overthrow Assad.

Another lie.
"Britain and the US are doing all they can to help - they are not, but they would if Syria had significant supplies of oil."

Syria HAS significant supplies of oils and UK/US ARE doing all they can.

Stupidity.
Sanctions have made not one iota of difference so far - Assad is getting his support from Russia, China and Iran,
True and despicable of China Russia and Iran.

and will continue to do so until the UN act on their constitutional 'Duty to Protect' clause and stop hiding behind Russia and China as an excuse not to.
Vetoes can not be ignored

Assad's friend.
Many Nations have taken strong actions against Assad.
You have refused to support them or even acknowledge their efforts.
I have invited you to do so more than once and been ignored.
That makes you a friend of Assad.

You follow a token word of criticism of Assad's friends, with pages of attacks on Assad's enemies.
That makes you a friend of Assad.

Your default position on this forum has always been anti UK and the West.
That is OK, but if you post to a thread about Syria almost nothing but attacks on Assad's enemies, then you align yourself with Assad's friends.
Your posts here show you to be, indeed, a friend of Assad.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 05:17 AM

And that 's it - that's your defence of uyour lying, distorting, flag-waving, bullying, openly dishonest behaviour on this thread - more of the same
Don't call us.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 05:24 AM

I refute all those charges, but suggest we discuss the issues not each other.
You did not give your view on the proposed resolution which could lead to intervention.
You must be in favour,right?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 05:26 AM

I would not object this time if you chose to express a view on the attack on Israelis in Bulgaria.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 12:03 PM

Russia and China have both vetoed the Security Council again, despite Annan's best efforts.
Time to give up on UN now?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 03:24 AM

Interest in Israel does not extend to the mass murder of Israeli tourists then.

Suppose Assad attacked Israel, like Saddam did, to get the Arab street on side?

Suppose Israel made attacks on chemical stockpiles.
Would that be acceptable?

There has been high level speculation about both scenarios.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 04:07 AM

"Interest in Israel does not extend to the mass murder of Israeli tourists then."
Throughout this thread you have whinged incessently "thread creep".
You have attempted to silence relevant offshoots, such as the sale of weapons to other Middle Eastern despots under attack from Arab Spring protersters.
You have whined about people 'using this thread to attack Israel, even though it was in relation to Israel's terrorism being defended by US vetos, just as China and Russia have defended Syrian terrorism (and even though you put Israel into your OP).
Now you want to discuss something that has ABOUT AS MUCH CONNECTION WITH THE CONTINUING MASSACRES AS DOES, SAY, THE BRITISH TORTURING, RAPING AND MURDERING KENYANS IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS OF THE EMPIRE (LOVE TO HEAR HOW YOU WOULD DEFEND THAT - BUT I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT YOU DO).
You appear to have flipped completely - please go away.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:04 AM

You demanded that Israel be discussed, so I complied.
I am wrong either way, right?

The murdering of Israelis is of concern here because the Olympics are about to start and it is the 40th anniversary of the mass murder of Jewish athletes at the Munich Olympics.
The threat is being taken very seriously.

The two issues related to Syria are genuine issues of concern.
No drift.
Completely relevant, but you choose to avoid it.
Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:27 AM

"Why? "
Because, despite your having put it up, you have screamed "thread drift" when anybody but yourself has mentioned it.
Israel has been discussed in relation to vetos which have been applied in the past in abundance in support of terrorism - including those by by the US in protecting Israel from being condemned for their behaviour.
The Olympics, Munich or elswehere, have their own thread and have no place whatever here as they have no relevance whatever to your own thread - "Homs Horror" - or perhaps you'd like to explain why they do?
You now appear to have dropped the pretence that this is about Syria and rather a PR exercise in support of Israel.
But since you ask - and I will not take this any further on this thread.
I am appalled at all acts of terror, whether they be the killing of Israeli tourists or the facilitating of the massacres of thousands of refugees - and everything between. To emphasise one and deny the others is to take sides - I don't go there.
I am saddened that anybody should resort to slaughtering non-combatants using these methods for any cause, religious, political, or territorial.
Perhaps, if we still have a UN when all this is over, they might concentrate on finding a peaceful solution to all these problems now the Arab Spring has opened the possibility of democracy in those countries that have in the past been propped up by western arms sales in order not to rock the boat and threaten our oil supplies.
Meanwhile - back at the ranch.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:38 AM

I stopped objecting to your thread drift, and you are still not happy.

I posted this one sentence,
I would not object this time if you chose to express a view on the attack on Israelis in Bulgaria.
and commented that you chose not to.

That was the whole extent of my thread drift.
Everything else is on topic.
I am genuinely interested in how the far Left would react to entirely possible Israeli intervention, or to an attack on Israel, and doubt I am alone.

(I am glad post 666 was yours not mine!)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 07:02 AM

Assad says he is prepared to use his chemical weapons.
He says not on civilians, but on "foreign agressors" which likely means the rebels.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 07:15 AM

Press Association today.
Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel had not considered specifically trying to cross the border to seize the weapons. "There are other possibilities," he said in an interview on Fox News.

Over the weekend, defence minister Ehud Barak said Israel would be prepared to attack Syrian weapons arsenals should the need arise.

Mr Netanyahu said preventing Syria's weapons from falling into the wrong hands was key to Israeli security. "Could you imagine Hezbollah, the people who are conducting with Iran all these terror attacks around the world - could you imagine them having chemical weapons? It would be like al Qaida having chemical weapons," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 08:16 AM

By no stretch of the imagination does the Bulgaria terrorist attack have anything remotely to do with what is happening in Syria; you are now blatently using the slaughter of the Syrian people as a Zionist soapbox.
You appear to have dug yourself into a hole that even your own personal Mary Poppins will be unable to get you out of - feel free - but you do so without me.
It is heartening to see you finally acknowledge the Israeli concern about chemical weapons - who knows, perhaps the UN and the rest of the world will at long last get off their bums and prevent this slaughter from escalating into cross-border chemical warfare - there's been far too much of that sort of thing already!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 08:50 AM

Zionist soapbox?!
I defy you to put up anything from any post of mine to justify that.

It was you who insisted that Israel be discussed Jim.
The comment about the tourist massacre was my only concession to it.

(but now it has been raised in the context of Syria by Netanyahu, so it is not drift anymore anyway.)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:21 AM

Jerusalem Post today.
The Syrian opposition rejected an Israeli offer of assistance, Foreign Minister Avigdor Liberman said in an interview with Turkish media published Tuesday.

"We offered humanitarian assistance but they rejected it," he told the Turkish journalists in Jerusalem Sunday. "Everybody has told us that it is much better to keep the distance."


The foreign minister added: "We don't want to impose ourselves on the Syrian opposition. It is impossible to impose ourselves on somebody. We can only suggest but cannot impose," Turkish daily Hurriyet quoted him as saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 07:10 AM

Putin is coming to London.
Perhaps some of the Olympic spirit of co-operation will rub off on him.
Other parties.
Reuters last week) - Lebanon's powerful Shi'ite militant group Hezbollah has publicly tied its future to Bashar al-Assad, but as the tide turns against the Syrian president it is silent on whether it will join the fight to support him.

The stakes are high for the group which fears that toppling Assad will pave the way for increased Western pressure - if not war - on its strongest ally and founder, Shi'ite Iran. By losing Assad the group would also be deprived of its strategic partner and main supply line for its arsenal.

"Hezbollah is at a point of enormous strategic uncertainty. (Syria's uprising) is not an existential threat, they are too well armed. But now they face a threat from two sides," a Western diplomat in Lebanon said, referring to Hezbollah's foe Israel and a potentially hostile post-Assad Syria.

Hezbollah has shown no sign of abandoning Assad and Lebanese officials close to the group say it won't stand idle if the battle worsens. Some said it will fight Israel. Others said it will deploy some of its fighters to secure the border with Lebanon, from which rebels are attacking Syrian frontier posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 10:58 AM

Annan has admitted failure, quiting his role securing peace in Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 09:59 AM

No meeting of minds between Putin and Cameron.
Russia is sending three large landing ships with hundreds of marines to its base in Syria.
"Ex" Communist Putin's regime is nasty and repressive, like the one in Syria he supports.
Like US, Britain is increasing its "practical non-lethal support" to the opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 11:08 AM

"No meeting of minds between Putin and Cameron."
No - then why does today's times carry a photograph of Putin and one of his henchmen sharing a box and chatting with Cameron at the Olympics?
As you say, Russia is an "Ex" Communist Putin's regime" - ie a capitalist country so there is no political mileage in that one. China is one of the west's (particularly Britain's) most valued trading partners, so I suppose it is out of the question to suggest a trade embargo against them until they lift their veto on Syria? No? I thought not.
"practical non-lethal support"
There are decades of precedents of the US (obediently supported by Britain - good little poodle that she is) giving 'practical support in the form of military and economic intervention to those threatening the West's interests - right up to that given in Libya, but not in Syria it seems, where the consequences to the civilian population have already proved 100 times worse, and are quite likely to escalate to an international crisis involving chemical weapons (not to mention the support that the only people to provide any practical opposition - the fundamentalists - are likely to get from the people, should Assad be defeated).
The "practical non-lethal support" given (or not given, as the case may be) has made not the slightest difference - the civilian death toll continues to rise, Assad escalates his war crimes, and the Syrian people continue to suffer - as a headline in the Times last week so clearly put it "We are keeping our eye on you (Assad)", and that is all we/they are doing - standing by and watching as if Syria has become an Olympic event.
Maybe it's time you upped your demand for sending Assad riot-control equipment????
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:34 PM

Annan begged the international community not to militarise the Syrian situation.
The West desisted from supplying weaponry because it would be spitting in Annan's face to do so.

Cameron and Putin, The Independent.
"By the time the Russian national anthem was played, Mr Cameron had already made his exit. If relations seemed strained, it can hardly come as a surprise given the earlier discussions in Downing Street. Mr Cameron raised human-rights disagreements – specifically the treatment of the female punk rock trio Pussy Riot – as he challenged Mr Putin over growing suppression in the country. The band's members face up to seven years in prison after staging a protest in a Moscow cathedral.

The discussions between the two leaders focused on the turmoil in Syria, where profound differences exist between the two countries over how to respond. Russia and China have blocked British-backed resolutions in the Security Council to threaten the Assad regime with global sanctions."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:15 PM

None of which has addressed anything in my posting
No explanation for Cameron chumming it with the "nasty and repressive" Russians at the Olympics
No acknowledgement of Russia's capitalistic status, making their "nasty and repressive" behaviour the act of a capatilast country.
No comment on Britain having a trading partner that has vetoed action against Syria.
No response to boycotting trade with these bastards - but then again, that nice Mr Cable did say that they don't mind trading with "nasty and repressive people".
No acknowledgement of the fact that Britan's, the US's and teh UN's "practical non-lethal support" has not made one iota of difference; instead, the stated inaction by the West has put the body-count even higher once it has been shown that the world is prepared to stand back and watch while the world stands back and lets Assad get on with the job in hand.
Eben Annan has admitted the failure of what few feeble noises of opposition have been maade by throwing in the towel.
And of course a total failure either to explain ot withdraw your "riot-equipment" suggestion - perhaps yo were "mistaking it for Libya" like you were about the sale of sniper ammunition to Syria - my arse!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:14 PM

The Independent quote is how I see the Cameron/Putin meeting.
Russia may have embraced a kind of capitalism, but a nasty and repressive kind under the leadership of a hard line communist KGB officer.
Ex!

I have explained my position on non lethal equipment enough times.
Do you want a link to some?

Britain and the West has imposed embargoes on Syria and Iran.
Britain could not hurt an economy like China or Russia, and it would plunge us into an historic recession that we would not see end in our time.

Is there any country in the world who you approve of over this?
Name one that has done better than UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:19 PM

Saudi Arabia?
Qatar?
Iran?
Hezbolla?
Hamas?
Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 03:13 AM

"The Independent quote is how I see the Cameron/Putin meeting."
The photograph I'm referring to was taken place of an official viewing box at the Olympics - as I say - buddy-buddies - interpret that as you may - I see it as cynical politicians chumming it up at a sporting event, while thousands of non-combetants are being slaughtered.
"Name one that has done better than UK."
That's a difficult one as nobody has given any practical support to attempt to stop the slaughter - Britain specifically said at the beginning that they had no intention of doing so - some sort of honesty I suppose
A quote from an above article:
"Turkish and Arab leaders tell me that they would be ready to set up safe havens and humanitarian corridors providing the US stops fooling around with "leading from behind" and takes the lead to set up at least one no-fly zone with help from a coalition of the willing"."
To date, nobody had lifted a practical finger to prevent the killing of the Syrian population - despite your trying to occupy the high ground on behalf of Britain and the US, they are standing by and watching while a butcher gets on with his work
AND STILL YOU ARE IGNORING EVERY POINT I HAVE MADE Cameron and his political chums, trade boycotts against the vetoers, inaction by the West helping to escalate the massacres, your disgusting suggestion on "riot equipment"..... you appear to have applied your own veto on the truth of this affair
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 05:16 AM

The photograph I'm referring to
was misleading.
Cameron snubbed Putin by walking out before Russia's anthem.

Britain specifically said at the beginning that they had no intention of doing so
Please stop telling this untruth.
Cameron said from the start that Britain would take action but not break the arms embargo.
I posted his statements for you.
Remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 06:32 AM

"Cameron said from the start that Britain would take action but not break the arms embargo."
Cameron's Senior minister and several Government supporters said publicly on television that the government had no intention of becoming practically involved in assisting the Syrians because of who might replace Assad
Still no response to the main points:
Something from the horses mouth for you to ignore (emphasis mine in case you try to accuse me of your trick of doctoring cut-n-pastes).
Jim Carroll


UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY CONDEMNS SECURITY COUNCIL
Michael Jansen in Damascus

The United Nations General Assembly voted by a large majority in New York yesterday afternoon to condemn its own security council for failing to end the war in Syria as fighting rages.
The non-binding resolution was passed by the assembly by 133 votes to 12, with 31 abstentions.
The move was clear evidence of global frustration with the key, per¬manent members of the Security Council: the US, Britain, France, Russia and China. These, along with other members of the council, have been unable to agree a common position on Syria, indulging instead in what former UN secretary general Kofi Annan termed "FINGER-POINTING AND NAME-CALLING" as he resigned on Wednes¬day his position as envoy to Syria.
His departure dismayed some ' members of the political opposi¬tion in Damascus.
Mouna Ghanem, spokeswoman for Building the Syrian State, said: "I expect there will be a rise in the violence as people might think any chance of a peaceful solution has gone. Internationally it is now the responsibility of Russia and the US to sit together and find a solution for their problem over Syria.
"It is high time to talk about a mediation group, conflict resolu¬tion specialists [that would] come to the country."
George Jabbour, former member of the Syrian parliament, said Annan's resignation was expected because he was unable to make progress in his mission. How¬ever, he said, if he had not under¬taken the task, the death toll "might have been much higher".
Mr Jabbour called on US president Barack Obama and Russian president Vladimir Putin to stop the bloodshed.
In London, British foreign secre¬tary William Hague described Mr Annan's resignation as "a bleak moment" to which he said Britain would respond by giving the rebel side more support, short of arming them.
"Given the scale of death and suffering and the failure so far of the diplomatic process, we will, over the coming weeks, increase our practical but non-lethal sup¬port. It will not involve sending armaments," he said.
There needed to be funda¬mental change in Syria, he said. "Diplomacy has so far failed the people of Syria. We do not give up on the diplomacy with Russia and with China. We will keep going with that as long as this situation continues but we will have to do other things as well."
In New York, Abdallah al-Moual-limi, the envoy for Saudi Arabia, which was the driving force behind the resolution, urged the assembly to maintain its moral and humanitarian values by approving it.
However, Syria's envoy, Bashar Jaafari, said Saudi Arabia and co-sponsor of the resolution Qatar could not themselves be considered oases of human rights.
The UN secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, told the assembly the reported brutality in Aleppo, Syria's second city and commer-cial capital could amount to crimes against humanity.
"As we meet here, Aleppo... is the epicentre of a vicious battle between the Syrian government and those who wish to replace it... The acts of brutality that are being reported may constitute crimes against humanity or war crimes. Such acts must be investi¬gated and the perpetrators held to account," he said.
He repeated that he intended to replace Mr Annan when he departs formally at the end of this month.
"Despite repeated verbal accept¬ances of [Mr Annan's] six-point plan endorsed by the UN Security Council, both the [Syrian] govern¬ment and the opposition continue to rely on weapons, not diplomacy, in the belief that they will win through violence," he said.
"But there are no winners in Aleppo today, nor anywhere else in the country. The losers in this escalating battle are the people of Syria," he added.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 11:07 AM

Cameron's Senior minister and several Government supporters said publicly on television that the government had no intention of becoming practically involved in assisting the Syrians because of who might replace Assad
That is simply not true Jim.
It is a lie.

Your big cut and paste was about the General Assembly resolution.
It was solely aimed at Russia and China whose vetoes blocked every attempt by the rest of the Security Council to take any action against Assad.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 11:23 AM

The reolution was proposed by the West and the Arabs, and opposed by Russia and China.

BBC today
": the text (of the resolution) had to be watered down in an attempt to win over many states, dropping explicit calls for Bashar al-Assad to step down and for member states to support Arab League sanctions.

And even though the opposition was small, it again included China and Russia. Moscow opposed the resolution as unbalanced, making clear that it believes the UN is taking one side in a civil war"

Irish Times today
"Western and Arab powers want Dr Assad to step aside but Russia and China have used their security council vetoes to block attempts to force him out. They say outside interference is prolonging the bloodshed.

UN member states voted overwhelmingly yesterday to condemn the Syrian government at a special session of the 193-member general assembly that Western diplomats said highlighted the isolation of Russia and China."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 11:49 AM

Once again you dismiss what is being said and defend what is not being done
Annan himself has made the point - the security council, Russia, America, Britain, China...; between them they have totally blocked any action, yet pretended to care about what is happening in Syria - just as you have throughout this thread.
The statement by the British Minister and his supporters on Question Time back in February, was unequivocal - no help for the Syrians.   
This thread has been no more than a soapbox for your Zionist views:
"Israel is attacked at every opportunity while worse criminals, even those next door, get a free ride."
"Israel denies and defends against all accusations of atrocities by the state."
"If it were possible to blame Israel we would be seeing your usual huge posts loaded with outrage."
"But, you have nothing to say because there is no way to blame Israel."
"I find it extraordinary Jim, that you have ignored all that and used it as just another platform to attack Britain and Israel who happen to be totally blameless in this."
"You will want to congratulate Israel for confronting and resisting them for so many years."
"You will also want to support Israel's blockade of Gaza,as it has stopped those "dictatorships" from supplying arms and explosives to the most "repressive regime" of all."
"Mr Netanyahu said preventing Syria's weapons from falling into the wrong hands was key to Israeli security."
This shit is classic Hyde Park Corner rhetoric, yet you whine "thread drift when somebody takes up your point" and doesn't agree with your ranting Zionism.
Answer the points put to you or piss off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 12:04 PM

Not forgetting:
"Interest in Israel does not extend to the mass murder of Israeli tourists then."
"Suppose Assad attacked Israel, like Saddam did, to get the Arab street on side?"
"Suppose Israel made attacks on chemical stockpiles.
Would that be acceptable?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 12:36 PM

The statement by the British Minister and his supporters on Question Time back in February, was unequivocal - no help for the Syrians.

JIM, THAT IS A LIE!
REPEATING IT DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 04:01 PM

An episode, last February, of a weekly TV panel show, where celebrities and politicians give their personal views on questions without prior notice.
The government does not announce policy on such TV shows.

It is announced by Prime Ministerial and Ministerial statements of which there have been several.
Why do you pretend to be unaware of them?

You are desperate to attack Britain, but having nothing you essentially make stuff up.
This is a truly grave issue Jim.
Treat it seriously please.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 05:51 AM

The Free Syrian Army has captured some Iranians near Damascus and claims they are fighters
Iran says they are pilgrims.
Assad's ally Hamas has launched against its neighbours the biggest and deadliest attack for decades.
(I hope that is not too Zionist for anyone.)

This 2011 UK government report gives the lie to Jim's claim that UK policy was soft on Assad in February 2012.

In August (2011), Prime Minister David Cameron, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy condemned the continuing violence and stated that President Assad had lost legitimacy and should step aside in the best interests of Syria and the unity of its people. However, President Assad and his security forces ignored all calls for an end to violence. They continued to repress civilians in an effort to hold on to power.

The UK is at the forefront of international efforts to end the crisis in Syria. In 2011, we worked within the EU to impose sanctions targeting Syrian regime figures responsible for human rights violations. We supported three UN Human Rights Council Special Sessions on Syria, assisted the UN-mandated commission of inquiry and raised concerns in the UN Security Council and General Assembly. We supported the Arab League's efforts to put pressure on the Syrian government to end the violence. The UK has regularly raised our long-standing concerns over human rights with the Syrian government in recent years. As the situation deteriorated dramatically in 2011, opportunities for direct engagement became increasingly limited. But at every opportunity, UK officials raised with Syrian government representatives our concerns about human rights. We also funded training for Syrian activists to help them document human rights violations to support accountability.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:21 PM

I gave the source the day after the discussion took place, and the reason why Britain had decided to stand and watch while the slaughter took place and the rest of the panel that were involved in the discussion.
Your gunslinging mate even acknowledged it had happened and probably made one of the few sensible comments he has ever uttered:
"Sounds like the "typical" BBC Question Time panel it had only one person with any grasp of what is the right thing to do. The panel members? two politicians, the spin doctor who pushed for action in Iraq, a journalist and a comedian. And it is the comedian who got it right - now why am I not surprised at that - all the others have to be told what to think before they walk out the door."
Denying that it isn't true doesn't make it any less of a fact - Briain has been true to her word and hasn't lifted a finger to help stop the slaughter - the reason given was not unsimilar to your own - "I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls."
The list of your 'soapboxing' statements has conveniently disappeared, but neither does that alter the fact that you made them.
Nor does the fact that you proposed the sale of anti-riot gear to Assad, which you still have to explain.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:24 PM

What is the point of stating obvious untruths Jim.
Briain has been true to her word and hasn't lifted a finger to help stop the slaughter
That is shite jim.
Your impression from a TV show v an official report.
I just showed that Britain was at the forefront of international efforts to stop the abuse and oust assad even before the Homs massacres.
I have posted the staements of Cameron and Haig since, and details of UK efforts at the UN, Moscow and international diplomatic missions.
Your claims are false.
Shite.
Lies.

Back in the real world, Assad's Prime Minister and family have defected.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 05:49 PM

You are the most unprincipled and dishonest individual it has ever been my bad luck to come across - you can't handle a fact so you deny it - Sabra and Shatila - Israel said they didn't do it, so it didn't happen, "all Pakistani males are cultural perverts "wasn't me said it, it was somebody else guv".
UK Defence Secretary Philip Hammond, said that Britain would not be involved before a viewing audence of millions - Britain has not become involved - Annan has just pointed that out, the Syrian people have said tha the world has abandoned them, the inaction has led to Annan's resignation and he has accused Britain and the US of "finger pointing instead of action".
Even your thuggish brainded of a mate has acknowledged that it was British policy and condemned it at the time " a comedian. And it is the comedian who got it right - now why am I not surprised at that - all the others have to be told what to think before they walk out the door."
You have consitently lied on this thread, you have attemprted to cover up your own stupidity and calousness with liesd, distortions and denial.
A leading member of the government said it was policy, Britain and the Us have followed that policy to the letter, the massacres have steadily escalated because of their inaction - and despite supposed embargoes on Assad and his henchmen ASsad's gofer still goes in and out of Britain unchallenged.
Go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 05:49 PM

You are the most unprincipled and dishonest individual it has ever been my bad luck to come across - you can't handle a fact so you deny it - Sabra and Shatila - Israel said they didn't do it, so it didn't happen, "all Pakistani males are cultural perverts "wasn't me said it, it was somebody else guv".
UK Defence Secretary Philip Hammond, said that Britain would not be involved before a viewing audence of millions - Britain has not become involved - Annan has just pointed that out, the Syrian people have said tha the world has abandoned them, the inaction has led to Annan's resignation and he has accused Britain and the US of "finger pointing instead of action".
Even your thuggish brainded of a mate has acknowledged that it was British policy and condemned it at the time " a comedian. And it is the comedian who got it right - now why am I not surprised at that - all the others have to be told what to think before they walk out the door."
You have consitently lied on this thread, you have attemprted to cover up your own stupidity and calousness with liesd, distortions and denial.
A leading member of the government said it was policy, Britain and the Us have followed that policy to the letter, the massacres have steadily escalated because of their inaction - and despite supposed embargoes on Assad and his henchmen ASsad's gofer still goes in and out of Britain unchallenged.
Go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 06:05 PM

UK Defence Secretary Philip Hammond, said that Britain would not be involved before a viewing audence of millions

No he did not.
To get involved was stated UK government policy before the TV show, and after it.
The UK government was and is involved.

If a senior Minister had said otherwise on the show the media would have seized on it, the opposition would have had a field day, and he would have had to retract.
None of that happened because he never said any such thing.
Others may have, but no Minister could.

I have posted a government report from before the show and Ministerial and Prime Ministerial statements from after the show.

Attacking me changes nothing, and I do not lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 09:50 AM

The only person who has lied and deliberately misrepresented things on this thread so far has been you Christmas. You have done so repeatedly.

An unsubstantiated newspaper article becomes unassailable fact - it isn't

A comment made on a television current events panel show becomes stated Government Policy - it isn't

As for the UN Security Council:

The following Permanent Members want to get something done to stop the bloodshed in Syria - United States of America; the United Kingdom; France.

The following Permanent Members wish to see the status quo maintained and supported - Russia; the People's Republic of China.

Fact is now that there is no "Peace Plan" no-one can "impose" peace in Syria and end the bloodshed. The can has been kicked far too far down the road, the anti-Assad Free Syrian Council will not enter into any dialogue that offers Assad and the Ba'athists even the remotest chance of holding on to power in the country. Assad and his allies (Russia, China, Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas) will not enter into any dialogue that demands that Assad steps aside. That brings the situation to an impasse - so they battle it out and, like Libya's Gaddafi, Assad will fall, either to the "rebels" or to the Syrian Ba'ath Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 11:24 AM

Prosor also stressed the connections between Syrian regime and "its evil allies" Iran and Hezbollah. "The experience and capabilities of Iran and Hezbollah in repression are on full display in Syria. They provide weapons, ammunition, training, intelligence and logistical equipment to Assad," he said.

"Assad's partners in this 'trio of terror' are not shy about discussing their role in the slaughter. Last week, Nasrallah gave a speech praising the Assad regime, calling it 'a real military partner.' And just several days ago, Iran's vice president promised the Syrian foreign minister that Iran will continue to offer its 'experience and capabilities' to Assad's killing machine."

"It is time for the international community to hold all three members of this 'trio of terror' accountable for their crimes," he concluded.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 12:10 PM

"An unsubstantiated newspaper article becomes unassailable fact - it isn't"
Not unsubstantiated (if you are referring to the FACT that Britain sold ammunition to Assad, which both you and your friend identified as sniper bullets - sorry sniper rifles which turned out to be sniper rifle bullets).
"You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles."
The article (Guardian) carried a an official government chart showing the sale actually existed and was licenced for export.
You then about turned and first (without evidence) claimed that the licence was cancelled, then, failing to convince, you now appear to be claiming it didn't exist - want me to dig it up once more to save you the stress of doing it for yourself, or do you think you can manage it by yourself?
You fick friend went through six different explanations for the sale, finally settling on 'I mistook Libya for Syria'.
I'd stick to your bar-room soldiering if I were you.
"The UK government was and is involved."
"Mr Annan criticised the Security Council for failing to back his peace plan. "At a time when we need – when the Syrian people desperately need – action, there continues to be finger-pointing and name calling in the Security Council,"
"No he did not".
From my posting the day after the Question Time broadcast
"On BBC's Question Time last night, UK Defence Secretary Philip Hammond; Liberal Democrat peer, Shirley Williams; and Daily Mail journalist Ann Leslie claimed it would be unwise for the West to intervene in the Syrian situation - Alastair Campbell waffled and said nothing coherent. All claimed that Assad was preferable to any alternative Government.... Ironically, comedian Steve Coogan was the only one on the panel calling for some sort of action."
To which the Chocolate soldier responded:
"Sounds like the "typical" BBC Question Time panel it had only one person with any grasp of what is the right thing to do. The panel members? two politicians, the spin doctor who pushed for action in Iraq, a journalist and a comedian. And it is the comedian who got it right - now why am I not surprised at that - all the others have to be told what to think before they walk out the door."
Now let's see where he has gone from here - about turn, quick march, no doubt!!
What a pair of tossers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 02:13 PM

Must we go over this again Jim?
A licence for small arms ammunition may have been issued, BUT BRITAIN DOES NOT MAKE ANYTHING THAT ASSAD'S MILTARY USE.

SO HOW COULD WE SELL IT TO HIM?

There is nothing, anywhere that even implies sniper ammunition, SO WHY DO YOU KEEP ON ABOUT IT?????

Your insane, deranged obsession to implicate a blameless Britain is making you a laughing stock.

Meanwhile, Assad, Russia, China and Iran collude in the massacre of innocents and children, while you obsess about blaming Britain who has done more than any other to stop them.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 02:29 PM

BBC today.
Iran's security chief has told President Bashar al-Assad that Syria is part of a vital regional alliance that Tehran will not allow to be broken.

Mr Jalili was quoted as saying: "Iran will not allow the axis of resistance, of which it considers Syria to be an essential part, to be broken in any way."

Correspondents say "axis of resistance" refers to Iran, Syria, Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas in Gaza.

The UK said on Tuesday it was quadrupling its aid for refugees fleeing fighting in Syria.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said on Tuesday that the international community had to plan for the fall of the Syrian regime.

Speaking in South Africa, she said: "The intensity of the fighting in Aleppo, the defections, really point out how imperative it is that we come together and work toward a good transition plan."

British-based activist group Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said 270 people were killed across Syria on Monday. It said 61 civilians died in Aleppo province alone.

Activists estimate more than 20,000 people have died since the uprising against President Assad began in March last year.