Folk Club / Session Etiquette

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 11:52 AM

I `ad that Sublime Ashtray in my cab the other day. I picked `im up from the Ryanair terminal where `ed been dodging around on `is laptop doing that Mudcat to pass the time.
`e said,"Top of the Morning, Jim. `ere, when you lot are doing the clubs what do you think about the etiquette in `em?"
I said, "Etiquette, etiquette!! I thought that was something we did at the dining table?"
`e said, "Nah, say frinstance someone sings one of your songs?"
I said, "Oh, I see what you mean. We just charge `em a tenner a verse. Nice little earner!!"


Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Andiliqueur
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 10:55 AM

I totally agree with "Guest" above.You can practice and practice at home but it's not until you've tried out a song in public that it begins to gell. You have to start somewhere and in my experience most songs improve rapidly after the first couple of outings. We usually ask that people don't join in until we are confident but this does sometimes fall on deaf ears."Bear with bear with" for those of us who like to learn new songs rather than keep trotting out the same old 'favourites'.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 09:05 AM

All are welcome and in that spirit they will be all levels.What should never happen is overt mocking of pepple who are struggling.
I think I am capable of some sweet singing but I often struggle especially with new material.I willusually spend 4 to 6 weeks listening to a song knockin it out on keyboard or guitar, searching for the, sheet music, listening again to a variety of artists, memorizing , acting out the words of the song and singing it over and over, checking it by recording until I thinkit's ready.Sometimes its fine but sometimes not but I find a couple of disappointing renditions lead to my being able to sing it acceptably well or better.In the wobbly phase I cant cope with accompaniment and can be thrown badly by enthusiastic guitarists even very sophisticated ones.
The things that should be forbidden are
unhelpful comments on my/anybodys rendition whether it be wrong words,factual errors in words or whether I am in tune. I respect constructive criticism but if anyone wants to give I dont want it in public- a little chat at the break would be nice
I an pretty thick skinned in general but being mocked on the qualityof my singinv is not what I go out for.
Afew months xxx ago I saw some pillock of a guitarist waving his tuner behind the head of a singer who was stumbling with his song.This seriously pissed me off!

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,vox properli
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 08:24 AM

ha! I like it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 25 May 12 - 04:25 AM

I have the greatest respect for CS who is a fantastic singer.

We can agree on that much, Richard.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 25 May 12 - 02:58 AM

"Aw, can you be quiet?" Works for me.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 May 12 - 07:12 PM

Hey, that was only a leg-pull from me - I have the greatest respect for CS who is a fantastic singer. She silences the pub with awe - not a bunch of grumpies going "Ssshhh".

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 May 12 - 06:36 PM

Except of course I haven't done that AT ALL.

I didn't say you did. I didn't name you any more than you named the sessions you were talking about. You just made your assumptions from the circumstantial evidence.

Because no-one but ME on this thread, actually knows which pants session I'm describing.

Richard Bridge didn't seem to have any trouble working out who you were so I imagine that anyone else who knows you will have sussed it out as well.

No, CS, you're not "murdering kittens" you're just pissing on the efforts of a lot of people who CAN be "arsed" to put time and effort into promoting the music they love.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 12 - 05:25 PM

I would prefer it if the late Ruth Archer was not brought into this discussion either dead or alive.
I would also prefer it if contributors did not mention wanking and Ruth Archer in the same post

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 24 May 12 - 03:57 PM

"tell everybody what pants your session is."

Except of course I haven't done that AT ALL.
Because no-one but ME on this thread, actually knows which pants session I'm describing.

And as I've said before, this is a *discussion* board dedicated to the err discussion of folk related topics, pants singarounds included!

I do wish so many folkies on this forum weren't so bleeding precious about this hobby sometimes, it's not like I'm murdering kittens or anything, after all, is it?

And maybe a bit of honesty doesn't go amiss either. I'm even inclined to agree with the late (to this forum) Ruth Archer who has been know to bash the umm 'mutual wanking sessions' you'll see among amateur performers.

Or maybe it was her having a bash during the mutual wanking sessions, I'm not terribly sure about that one...

Whatever, so long as everyone's left happy and contented by their preferred activity. Though as a side thought maybe wanking is preferable to pants singarounds? Probably. Anyway, tonight for me it's 'King of Thrones' season 2 Episode 8, with cauliflower cheese for tea. Yippee!

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 May 12 - 03:40 PM

And don't be shy about doing it your way if it is your work that keeps it going.

You'll also need to learn to accept that some people will not like the way you do it and may well go on the internet to tell everybody what pants your session is.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 24 May 12 - 03:25 PM

We regularly have a trombonist at our session & it really kicks ass. I guess like everything else it depends on the trombone player.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 May 12 - 02:35 PM

Sounds good. And don't be shy about doing it your way if it is your work that keeps it going. I would suggest laminating some flyers that say we only play tunes from Spain and we prefer no trombones and...etc. for songs it is even more important..we prefer that you listen politely whilst people sing (or the opposite)..that you only sing on the chorus..etc.

If you prefer no group songbooks, say so and put it in writing and pass out flyers because they will come up and take over the group...and also ipods, etc. And people don't just read lyrics from their ipods..they actually play the tune or song on ipod for everyone to listen to. It is certainly sharing, but you might want to either encourage that or nip it in the bud.

If you want to be somewhat exclusive, it might be good to get a friend or someone to set up a very inclusive, everything goes, play your trombone along with a ballad if you are inclined group..that hopefully meets at the same time nd close by so people can choose their preferred style...mg

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Marje
Date: 24 May 12 - 12:37 PM

You can indeed change the landscape and start a session. Like Will and Bryan above, I did this successfully when I lived in Worthing in Sussex, and although I left the area 8 years ago, the session I started still continues there, which to my mind means I must have done something right.

Here in Devon I tried again to set up a session that wouldn't require me to drive very far. We tried three different venues before finding one where a session really worked, but it all came right in the end, and it's now an established part of the local folk scene.

One good thing about setting up a session yourself is that you not only get to choose the venue and the frequency, you can decide (to some extent) on the repertoire and the "etiquette" and custom-make the kind of session you enjoy. In both the sessions I started, I chose an open pub session, mainly tunes witha few songs, because I would not have the patience to run a song club and be polite about all the performers whatever their standard. A session is, for me, a manageable project, as the kind I enjoy most needs only the lightest touch of organisation. Other people with different skills and interests run various other sessions and clubs (in ny local town there's also a song club, an unaccompanied singing sesssion, and an Irish session), but none of them just evolves out of nothing - they're all set up and run by dedicated volunteers who want to promote the music in their own way.

So there's one solution to some of the grievances above - if the ways of a particular club or session upset or annoy you, go and start a new one and run it the way you want.

Marje

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 May 12 - 11:54 AM

It certainly is!

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Felipe Sin Cookie
Date: 24 May 12 - 11:29 AM

GUEST up there is not me, although it certainly could have been. Spleen, is that you?

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 24 May 12 - 08:38 AM

"The suggestion that singarounds are "sixties accoustic evenings" is simply an incorrect generalisation, though it may be that that is how it seems in some areas."

Fair point.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 24 May 12 - 08:34 AM

"Ah - so that's why you were not at many of the Lower Coke winter sings this year, CS (grin)."

Not at all RB, I think your sessions are in fact much fun. A few things got in the way, including health matters this Winter - things were a bit iffy for me in that area, though much improved of late and I'm certainly looking forward to upcoming Pigs (albeit I've probably offended half the attendees on this thread ..and others!)

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Tootler
Date: 24 May 12 - 08:31 AM

Singaround is almost as much a catch-all term as a folk club. Folk clubs local to me are mainly a mixture of singaround and guest evenings, with the difference being the balance between the two. The two folk clubs I regularly go to have a guest once a month with a singaround the other three weeks, but others have a different balance. Also the content of singarounds can vary. One I started out with was more of the sixties accoustic evening with mainly accompanied singing, but tunes and unaccompanied trad were certainly welcome. The ones I now go to are a mixture of traditional song and recently composed song in the folk idiom, sometimes accompanied, sometimes unaccompanied and it seems to be pretty much the pattern locally.

The suggestion that singarounds are "sixties accoustic evenings" is simply an incorrect generalisation, though it may be that that is how it seems in some areas.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 May 12 - 08:05 AM

I started my own session in my local pub, on the second Sunday of the month, in Sussex in September 2008 - so it's been around for getting on for four years. It took about 2 years for it to acquire a regular bunch of people all of whom, except me drive to get to it. I started it because I enjoyed an existing, last-Sunday-of-the-month, evening session in the village of Ditchling (about 5 miles away) very much. A month was too long for me to wait for that kind of evening, so I started my own. It's great fun. I "run" the evening, which only means making sure everyone gets the chance to start a song or tune, until I abdicate the chair at 10.30 - and then it's whatever people want to do until the landlady chucks us out or people go home.

The session in Ditchling that I liked so much has been going for over 10 years now - run by two fellow members of the band I play in. It's so good that I was interested to learn that, in its early days, there were sometimes just the two of them there all evening. My own session very occasionally consisted of me and the dog when I first started it, but now it's comfortably established.

So it can be done - and you can create another little mound on the cultural landscape - it just takes time and patience and persistence. My old mate Alan Day moved to a tiny village in deepest Suffolk a few weeks ago. He lives next to the village pub and - lo and behold - there's a folk club there once a month now, with a session once a month as well.

How long any of us will last at doing this is anyone's guess - but we try, and that's the point.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 12 - 07:48 AM

'Singarounds' on the other hand, could quite reasonably be termed 'Sixties acoustic evenings'

Not round these parts they couldn't. That's the folk club. The singaround is mainly (but not exclusively) trad...

Just to confuse things!

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 May 12 - 07:46 AM

Ah - so that's why you were not at many of the Lower Coke winter sings this year, CS (grin).

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 24 May 12 - 07:42 AM

A last point (and THREAD DRIFT) I think as others have noted, there is a lot of ambiguity surrounding the catch all term 'folk club' which can mean different things to different people. Both 'Trad tune (and song) sessions' and 'singarounds' and other more formal pro. performance clubs, come under the umbrella term 'folk club'.

While Trad. tunes and songs are timeless, and thus of potential interest to people of all generations who want to sing/play Trad. tunes and songs - I think it's here you may see a greater likelihood of attracting interest from non 'folkies' and younger musicians.

'Singarounds' on the other hand, could quite reasonably be termed 'Sixties acoustic evenings' and as such will continue to be of interest to a restricted (and dwindling) demographic.

I think in the longer term, while Trad. sessions will hopefully continue to thrive (as indeed they seem to currently be doing), the 'singaround' type of 'folk club' (at least as we know it), is I suspect, less likely to survive beyond the baby boomer generation. I don't necessarily think that's anything to be dismayed by.

As for the professional performance club, maybe some will continue, or new ones attracting younger audiences will supplant them, but on the whole festivals would seem to be the way things are going where the younger crowd is concerned - and it's a lively vibrant scene, so I don't think there's anything to be mourned there either.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 24 May 12 - 05:30 AM

"They are there because someone has put in the effort to find a venue, spread the word, do some advertising (possibly at their own expense) and generally make the thing work."

And that's the sad thing. Others have *already* put in a lot of personal time and effort, but the local folkies don't necessarily all see fit to return the favour. From the available evidence of my local err 'scene', if I were to try to begin something local to me, the same GEFF presumptions would be likely to prevail and in all honesty I wouldn't wish to be forced into a position of having to 'exclude' people who think it's OK not to practice what they plan to perform or at least get a reasonable handle on their instruments before taking them into the public arena.

In order to create a thriving and engaging folk scene, it seems it takes years of dedicated work and while some areas in the UK have certainly achieved that, others haven't and I don't have sufficient enthusiasm for the kind of long-term uphill struggle required to do so - though I may yet assault the local WI ladies with the suggestion to initiate a 'traditional song and ballad group', I definitely wouldn't call it a 'singaround' or imply it had anything to do with what people generally think of as 'folk'.

It's great that people do what they want to do and enjoy themselves doing so - all power to them, but I don't personally want to go to pants singarounds and I wouldn't encourage people unfamiliar with the folk scene to do so either - in person or on internet chat forums.

And before I start upsetting people too much more, that's me done. As you were ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 24 May 12 - 04:40 AM

See that, CS? It's your fault there isn't a good local session, just as it's my fault that the prevailing Folk Culture in these parts is such that we have to travel 20 miles to find the sort of inclusive conviviality that makes for a good night out. So - it's either put up or shut up basically, &, sadly, I've encountered a lot of that attitude in a lifetime of Folkin' too.

Thing is, The Snail (who is that masked mollusc?), a session is a landscape feature; it is integral to the cultural landscape of a particular region. Existing sessions & folk clubs are focus points for whatever sort of interest exists in your particular manor, and whilst a new sing/session might provide a much needed catalyst for disgruntled local traddies (what Les has done at The Beech is nothing short of miraculous in this respect), if you haven't got that sort of local market it doesn't stand a chance really.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 May 12 - 08:13 PM

GUEST,CS

There's one sesh worth attending round my way, but it's too far for me to get to. The nearest one is so pants that even though I could easily get there and back, I just can't be arsed

So start one. Sessions aren't just features in the landscape like lakes or mountains. They are there because someone has put in the effort to find a venue, spread the word, do some advertising (possibly at their own expense) and generally make the thing work.

If you run your own, it's up to you to set the ground rules and exclude those with 'personality disorders' and the 'good enough for folk' crowd.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Shantyfreak
Date: 23 May 12 - 04:57 PM

A lot of interesting chat and opinions on this thread but it all boils down to respecting each others efforts and not imposing ones own versions on someone elses singing/playing.
If someone is performing; paid or amateur, singer or musician; then for that time they are the lead and their version is what goes. They might have developed a variant tune or pace or whatever that actually enhances their own efforts and even if you hate it you should show it some respect and not try to impose a different version.
Over the years I have been to many concerts/festivals and folk clubs and come across many local rules which I respect. I have also been helped as well as hindered by people joining in when they thought I was in need of help.
This has lead to a piece which I perform from time to time.

FOLK CLUB ETIQUETTE

Here's a little guidance about what you shouldn't do.
For regulars at the folk clubs as well as those who're new.
It's really very simple so please try not to forget;
As I teach you all the basics of folk club etiquette.

We all understand the powerful pull of the bar,
That overpowering urge to buy another jar.
But please remember, use a little tact.
It's rude to leave the room in the middle of an act.

Most people fail to realise folk songs have many versions.
Some of which YOU might think are better called perversions!
But always remember that the artist's never wrong..
And you must use their version if you're going to sing along.

Sometimes you may decide YOU want to do a spot.
No one will object as long as you give it your best shot.
It really doesn't matter if you sing or play or recite.
But don't forget to name the writer. Not to isn't quite right.

One thing is certain to get on any singer's goat.
Guaranteed to rankle and cause a discordant note.
That's the racket from the packet of your favourite little snack.
If you're a noisy muncher, you won't be invited back.

But by far the greatest Folk Club Crime,
Is heedlessly wasting another man's time.
By slipping in a second when you're asked to do one song;
Or stretching an introduction far, far too long.


And if you don't like the tune or song.
And you fancy a pleasant little chat.
Well I'm here to tell you it's wrong.
So please don't even think of doing that.

If you are enjoying hearing folk sing
Please don't let your mobile phone ring.
'Cos if you're the cause of that disruptive sound
you'll leave the club without touching the ground!

And if you don't like the words or the music.
You must not indulge in a manner anarchic.
Just sit there quietly until there is a pause.
Then you can leave put please don't slam the doors.

So please remember - Don't forget -
The rudiments of FOLK CLUB ETIQUETTE

I don't do all the verses all the time but I'm sure you get the idea.
Jim

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 23 May 12 - 04:03 PM

way hey and up she rises 200 in a week o'

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 23 May 12 - 03:58 PM

Oh, don't know - it's all a matter of taste really - that & inclination, and maybe a small measure of self indulgent crap as Mr Mather points out but in this world one really has to be true to oneself, no matter in what particular furnace those passions were forged. One of my earliest Floor Spots was potentially ruined by a whistler (not a whistle player, note - that was me on that occasion) who warbled along with my Douce Dame Jolie so I went off on a 5-minute improvisation instead, though he joined back in when I came back to the tune. 'Sorry about that,' I said. 'I was trying to evade Mr Ronalde there.' The whistler left in high dudgeon and I got a few chuckles into the bargain.

Here, I think, the spirit is, on the whole, positive. I want Folk Clubs and Sessions and Singarounds to be joyful places of erudition and enlightenment, and I've no doubt for the most part they are, even if they're not quite my bag. My opening complaint was more by way of a morning-after mutterance because I woke up angry and hungover so I though - a problem shared is a probem halved.

Varnigh 200 posts in under a week - I think that in itself is a measure of how much people do care about these things.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 23 May 12 - 03:50 PM

Go Crowsis! I suspect the previous poster is a senior manager, judging by the tone ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 May 12 - 02:33 PM

And they are of course welcome to they're wee do, I wouldn't want to tell anyone how to go about running their own evening! But to suggest that people will get "put off" going to clubs because of chat on a forum, is I think nonsense. It's actually attending that's put me off. And there's no way in hell, I'd invite anyone I know along to a folk do either, unless it was going to be actually *entertaining* for them.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 May 12 - 02:27 PM

"must really help the cause of getting people to turn up..."

Or people get put off once they turn up and never return again.. There's one sesh worth attending round my way, but it's too far for me to get to. The nearest one is so pants that even though I could easily get there and back, I just can't be arsed - I'd rather go do some Choral singing instead or maybe stick pins in my eyes. In fact, bar my initial strong enthusiasm for folk, my interest in taking part on anything but an extremely intermittent level, has all but died a death.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Musket
Date: 23 May 12 - 02:05 PM

As ever, this thread is a wonderful advert for folk clubs and must really help the cause of getting people to turn up...

Never heard so much self indulgent crap since I took on a couple of the combatants on other subjects.

Takes all sorts I suppose.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 May 12 - 01:38 PM

(clickie didnt work in the last post so trying again)Here is documentation of this sort of problem. An innocent musician tries to play the Stoke Hornpipe on a tambourine and thirty other people deliberately "join in" playing loudly, and nearly(but not quite) drown her out.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 May 12 - 01:34 PM

Here is documentation of this sort of problem. An innocent musician tries to play the Stoke Hornpipe on a tambourine and thirty other people deliberately "join in" playing loudly and nearly(but not quite) drown her out.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 23 May 12 - 01:12 PM

Hey, John - I've been saying precisely that for years. Ballads are the Soap Opera of the day and vice-versa really. You get a lot of those themes cropping up again & again across narrative frontiers. Still I bet no one would dare noodle along with EastEnders once it's under way - certainly not in this house anyway!

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: johncharles
Date: 23 May 12 - 12:58 PM

Many ballads are formulaic, simple constructions, around popular themes. A bit like Eastenders or Coronation street. That's entertainment. - Ducks and runs for cover!

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 23 May 12 - 12:35 PM

I've always thought opera would be so much more fun if you could sing along with the bits you know. Its a shame we don't have opera nights in pubs like sessions.
FloraG

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 23 May 12 - 11:23 AM

Well, according to Zappa it's all entertainment, which isn't to trivialise it as I say, much less is it strum along if you haven't the first clue what you're doing. The more seriously you take it, so the more entertaining it becomes. The real fun stuff is putting the work in & learning the depths of your craft.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 May 12 - 11:04 AM

Sweeney -I never implied that performance should not be taken seriously - For Whoever's sake I have been a paid performer since the Mid seventies , and take ANY performance I do VERY Seriously . But that does not stop a LOT of people who OUGHT to know better trying to turn a Folk Evening into something OTHER than an entertainment .

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 23 May 12 - 10:47 AM

Joiners are not sitting in judgement on anyone. Shushers are.

Wrong again, Richard. The joiners in are the ones sitting in judgement - they're the ones who are doing the violation. I known young inexperiened singers giving up on Folk Clubs entirely because their confidece was shattered by some buffoon thinking he was no doubt doing them a favour. When it happens to me it ruins my night because I'm an jolly old cove who hates conflict - it depresses me to have to tell someone to shut up. Depresses me even more to see that look of hurt in their eyes as they assume the role of Victim, which is maybe another reason why they do it - because they enjoy being the Victim of a situation they themselves have instigated.

No One EVER convince me that when Bob and Ron's Great Great Whatever Grandfather was singing in the pub he was helping to estabkish a Semi Religious Art Form !   

Well, on what sort of grounds do you base that assumption because in my experience of Traditional Folk & Ballad and the Traditional Singers thereof I see something very serious indeed. Great entertainment has to be serious - it's as serious as your life. Even clowns have to take it seriously; Stan Laurel spend entire days editing the film stock just to maximise the effectiveness of his art. Traditional Folk Song is an art form; to do it justice we must approach it with due reverence and study it, listen to the old singers, read up on Broadsides, trawl the archives, get into the blood and bones of the thing; become possessed by the lingering ghosts and haunted into sleepless nights in utter terror at what we're dealing with here in our role as Folk Song Mediums which is a huge undertaking and a whole lot more than mere entertainment.

As for religion, for a Godless irreligious hedonistic oik such as myself then The Folk Club is one of the few places where I'm likely to have a genuine Spiritual Experience these days.

I'd definitely encourage people to at least make an effort to practice their instrument and the pieces they want to perform,

Absolutely 100% spot on. I understand these days they're singing songs off their Kindle screens. WTF?

A wee anecdote. There was once a singer of my acquaintance who made bold his anouncement that he had a variant of The Cregan White Hare, called The Bonny Black Hare. This guy is a real moralist Christian and it was obvious he hadn't even bothered to read the words before getting his iPhone out & scrolling through the text as he sang them. He's someone I like a good deal actually & there I was trying to catch his eye, shaking my head, mouthing No, No!, but all to no avail. He sang the song in complete innocence, slowly becoming aware of its metaphorical nature as several Folk Club members doubled up in helpless laughter. A classic really. But a lesson learned, I hope...

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 23 May 12 - 09:48 AM

Well Doug you are more likely to turn up than the three degrees and you have a neater beard so I will waive the degree thing in your case

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 May 12 - 09:27 AM

I don't generally care either way about joining in. When new to the folk scene I used to think it seemed a bit rude, now I accept it as a part of folkie culture. Sometimes though I would definitely rather hear an individual do their thing, rather than a crowd, otherwise everything starts to sound alike. As to 'gatekeepers', if I ran a club (which I don't) I'd definitely encourage people to at least make an effort to practice their instrument and the pieces they want to perform, rather than turning up and saying "I've never sung this before" "I haven't played this for twenty years". Folk is the only place I've noticed this to happen. In Am Dram people learn their lines. In Poetry Slams people don't take semi worked out ideas to the platform. In Choral singing, you practice till it's right before performing. In Open Mics performers learn their pieces first. I don't know where the 'good enough for folk' thing came from, but it definitely exists. Some think that's a good thing I suppose and they have every right to such an opinion of course, but I guess I must be Hitler ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 May 12 - 09:11 AM

No One EVER convince me that when Bob and Ron's Great Great Whatever Grandfather was singing in the pub he was helping to estabkish a Semi Religious Art Form !
Folk Music is ENTERTAINMENT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Snuffy
Date: 23 May 12 - 09:09 AM

"I was brought up in an environment where everyone joins in on all the bits they think they know. So feel free to join in with all my songs: it would be nice if you would use the same words and tune as me, though."

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 23 May 12 - 09:04 AM

Yes, Richard, but people who join in in a setting where that is not encouraged deserve to be shushed. As I said in my previous post, it all depends on the context and the nature of that particular event whether that behaviour is appropriate.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 May 12 - 08:48 AM

Joiners are not sitting in judgement on anyone. Shushers are.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 23 May 12 - 07:20 AM

I've been dipping in and out of this thread with some interest.

What is apparent is that there are a great many variations, from the all-in sing-song at one end to solo performance at another. These are all perfectly valid ways of enjoying music and we probably all participate in all of them to varying degrees.

Difficuties start to arise when people assume that behaviour which is acceptable, even encouraged, at one type of event is also acceptable at another. This becomes a problem when this behaviour starts to intrude on the enjoyment of others, whether they are performers or audience. Someone not joining in a sing-song may seem a bit odd, stand-offish even, but it doesn't really affect anyone else, whereas someone trying to join in where they're not wanted obviously does.

The point is that none of these behaviours is wrong in itself, it's all a question of the right context. In this, folk music is no different from any other aspect of life. We should all be concsious of our surroundings and adapt our behaviour accordingly - or at least be aware of the consequences if we do otherewise. Of course, the socially inept are found in all areas of life besides folk music.

The other thing which has become apparent is that while we have a number of terms to describe these events, how these terms is interpreted varies widely. I play in a lot of sessions, and I thought I understood pretty clearly what the term means, but it seems there are other interpretations, or at least variants. And all this is before we get to the minefield of local "house rules".

It's all very complicated and requires a level of social- and self-awareness which some people clearly lack. The obvious lesson is not to assume that your usual behaviour is the norm and will be acceptable elswhere, and when visitng a new event take time to discover what behaviour is acceptable and expected before making an idiot of yourself.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 May 12 - 07:09 AM

johncharles: I've never seen a harp used in a bluegrass/old-time number before. Neat idea.

Subject: RE: Folk Club / Session Etiquette
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 23 May 12 - 06:54 AM

Looks a lot more arty than our session...