BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 08:13 PM

What you wrote, Keith (read it) was, "Hamas does not want peace. It wants all Jews dead." That was what I meant when I likened it to a "blood libel". And once again, it is just not true.

It is as much a lie as it would be to claim that the Israeli government wants to kill all Palestinians, or that the Irgun or the Stern Gang, when they were trying to establish Israel, wanted to kill all British people.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:53 PM

"Do not believe everything they say."

Why not Keith, when you feel free to believe everything the Israeli propagandists say?

There are lies on both sides Keith!

There are deaths on both sides Keith!

There are crimes against humanity on both sides Keith!

Should the French in Vichy not have resisted in WW2? They weren't occupied, merely controlled. The Nazis weren't bombing them, merely blockading them. I'll bet you consider the maquis to be heroes, just as I do.

So why do you make comments like "If Israel did nothing, to break a non-existent cycle, it would become a country of cowering people in a land where normal life, work and school, are impossible.""""

and wimp out of making any proper reply when I respond with: "

"-a country of cowering people in a land where normal life, work and school, are impossible-.

What a beautifully succinct and accurate description of the situation in Gaza, with Israel's foot resting heavily across its throat.

And there you have it Keith! What do people do when they are held in thrall by xenophobic neighbours?

THEY RESIST!"

Your response: "Gaza, with Israel's foot resting heavily across its throat.
Not true Don.
No civilian supplies are resricted, and every Israeli has left, and the border with Egypt is open.".

Which neatly dodged the point of the statement, by choosing what to react to.

-Israel is a country of cowering people in a land where normal life, work and school, are impossible-!

"Just the terrified families of the South.
Why do you people trivialise their suffering?
Any government would act to stop it, election or not."

And Israel does, violently and without concern for the people of Gaza.

-Gaza is a country of cowering people in a land where normal life, work and school, are impossible-!

"Just the terrified families of the Gaza Strip.
Why do you people trivialise their suffering?
Any government would act to stop it, election or not.

And Hamas does, violently and without concern for the people of Israel, BUT MUCH LESS effectively violent.

The difference is that Israel can crush Gaza whenever it wishes to, and it wishes to far too often.

Our fathers fought against the attempts of well armed aggressors to take away our and their freedoms. It seems that Israel has too short a memory.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:37 PM

Pro Israel...

Pro Palestinian...

Anti Netanyahu... He's a thug that is going to get a lot of people killed... He is the Dick Cheney of Israel...

I'm sick of people like him... They think war first, second and third and is trying to box the US into a deep war in the Middle East...

No thanks, BB... Go screw yourself...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 06:07 PM

No rockets from Gaza no reaction from Israel - the blood of every Palestinian victim lies squarely on the hands of Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 05:54 PM

McG, it is true that the last incursion was also an attempt to stop the missile offensive against the towns of Southern Israel.
A reasonable and perfectly legitimate objective.
It is also true that it failed, and many lives were lost for little gain, and here we are again with Hamas trying to kill more Jews. (not a blood libel, that is what their missiles are for).

Al Jabaari was deeply involved in the rocketing of Israel.
Israel has been after him for years.
I do not believe he wanted to make peace with Israel.
His hatred was so great he would not speak to any Jew, even a sympathetic peace activist.
I am quite certain this shit about him negotiating for peace is just more propaganda.
Do not believe everything they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 05:38 PM

"The 1400 dead, mostly unarmed civilians, and a very high proportion of them children were a price worth paying to stop the missiles.

And it did not achieve that - and the fact that missile launching commenced once more is seen as justification for another war now. "

Abso-bloomin'-lutely!!

"The only truly effective way to stop the missiles is negotiation."

Halle-bloody-luia!

"Hamas are a ruthless nationalist organisation, which has carried out many terrible terrorist actions. In all these ways it is closely analogous to the Zionist organisations who founded Israel in their battle with the British, and with those who opposed their aims."

Agreed, and it's about time Israel developed a memory for other situations than their holocaust victim status. They simply cannot continue to classify any dissent about their actions as Jew Hating.

It is not Jews who are smashing the life out of the dispossessed former inhabitants of Palestine. It is solely the government and military of Israel and the Palestinians in Gaza, bombed out of their homes, schools and hospitals, and deprived of the means of making a living, are never going to stop fighting, no matter who governs Gaza.

Up to now Israel have been fighting, first small numbers of terrorists, then the government of Gaza, Hamas. But after this they'll find themselves fighting every Palestinian who can hold a weapon, and it's their own fault.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 05:08 PM

The cricial thing to note about the last war on Gaza was that it was claimed to be justified on the grounds that it was going to put an end to missile attacks. The 1400 dead, mostly unarmed civilians, and a very high proportion of them children were a price worth paying to stop the missiles.

And it did not achieve that - and the fact that missile launching commenced once more is seen as justification for another war now.

The only truly effective way to stop the missiles is negotiation. At the beginning of November negotiations aimed at stopping the missiles were in progress, involving Al Jaabari, and there seem good grounds for believing that a ceasefire was at the point of being agreed, when Al Jaabari was assassinated (along with eight other people who were in his vicinihty,including a seven year old girl). There have been no indications that this happened because negotiations had failed, and some that suggest that it happened because they seemed to be succeeding.
......................

"Hamas does not want peace. It wants all Jews dead." That's more or less what is called a "blood libel" when that kind of thing is said about Jews. It is just not true.

Hamas are a ruthless nationalist organisation, which has carried out many terrible terrorist actions. In all these ways it is closely analogous to the Zionist organisations who founded Israel in their battle with the British, and with those who opposed their aims.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 04:04 PM

Every time you post taking sides with Israel you condone what they are doing

All they are doing is trying to survive.
They just want their neighbours to leave them alone.
To stop trying to kill their people.
Why won't the Gazans just stop trying to kill Jews?

They could take the moral high ground by declaring a unilateral truce, on condition that the UN put on place a peacekeeping force between Israel and Gaza while they reach a negotiated settlement.

They did declare a unilateral truce.
Withdrew leaving all the infrastructure they had built, evicting settlers at gunpoint.
Gaza dedicated itself to the destruction of Israel and declared war.
The UN in Lebanon never stopped Hezbollah attacking Israel and UN in Gaza do not stop missile launches.
Hamas does not want peace.
It wants all Jews dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 03:37 PM

"Oh, come on Don. You are not as stupid as that."

No Mike, I'm not.

read my post of 03.07 P.M.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 03:16 PM

"Why do you Lefties all ignore the effect the missiles have on their terrified targets?"

Ignoring your ignorant assumption that everybody who disagrees with you is a leftie (I'm not! Ask Richard Bridge.) Why do you ignore the fact that exactly the same is true of all the innocent Palestinians in Gaza.

Every time you post taking sides with Israel you condone what they are doing. There are two sides to every argument and what you claim for one, we claim also for the other.

Every time you state that Israel is responding proportionately, you are aware that your statement is untrue.

We had the same from you over the Northern Ireland troubles.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 03:07 PM

"The last Gaza war, a lopsided three-week long Israeli air blitz and ground invasion over the New Year period of 2008-2009 aimed at ending repeated rocket attacks, left more than 1,400 Palestinians dead, mostly civilian, and killed 13 Israelis."

One hundred to one kill rate in Israel's favour......PROPORTIONAL to what?

And now they have Netanyahu's consent to mobilise up to 30,000 reservists, 16,000 of which are already being processed.

So where do they plan to stop?

70 kilometres inside the Gaza border completely sanitised, so that no rocket can reach Israel????

It seems the Isralis carrying out these disproportionate acts of murderous aggression are too stupid to realise that Israelis haven't cornered the market in love of country.

They would fight to the last against foreign agression or control, why can't they see that the Palestinians will do exactly the same.

The Israelis must be aware that the only possible military solution if they keep fighting will be the complete annihilation of the Gazan Palestinians, man, woman and child, given the immense disparity in arms and resources.

Is that what they really want?

They really need to talk, whatever it takes.

They could take the moral high ground by declaring a unilateral truce, on condition that the UN put on place a peacekeeping force between Israel and Gaza while they reach a negotiated settlement.

Israel would gain considerable credibility worldwide if they did that.

The military alternative will eventually alienate and inflame the surrounding Muslim countries to the point of uniting and attacking Israel. Netanyahu is a loose cannon who needs to be removed, before he embroils the whole Middle East in a war to the death.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 02:43 PM

This loaded word 'minority' wants its hash settled.

Criminals are a *minority* of society: so what does Don T think we should do? Abolish the police and let them get on with it because thy are just a *minority*?

It was a *minority* who destroyed the twin Towers on 9/11; I mean - count them: 4 - two for each tower. So that's all right, eh, Don? How much smaller a *minority* could you have?

Even if it was a *minority* firing rockets from Gaza [which it isn't; it's the elected govt as Keith so rightly points out], would that mean the resultant missiles didn't matter? Only a *minority* firing them, so let 'em come?

Oh, come on Don. You are not as stupid as that.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 02:36 PM

The Guardian, October24th
More than 70 rockets have been fired into southern Israel from Gaza since the departure on Tuesday(previous day!) of the emir of Qatar, whose visit to the Gaza Strip was seen as a boost for its ruling faction, Hamas. Three foreign agricultural workers were injured and several buildings were hit.

Four militants were killed in resurgent Israeli air strikes overnight as a short period of calm ended. Three were members of Hamas's military wing, the Ezzedin al-Qassam brigades, according to reports on its website.

Hamas, which normally distances itself from rocket fire from Gaza, has claimed responsibility for some operations in recent days. "These holy missions come in response to the repeated, continuous crimes of the enemy against our people, which killed four and injured 10 in the past 48 hours," it said in a statement.

Israel's defence minister, Ehud Barak, said he would order whatever action was necessary to stop rocket fire from Gaza. "If a ground operation will be necessary, there will be a ground operation. Nobody is eager for this but we will act as we are required to stop this wave and to increase the effectiveness of the operation."

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 02:30 PM

Yes, it is not just Lefties that always criticise Israel and never her enemies.
Don for instance.
(I am of the centre String since you ask, which would place me well to the Left in US.)
I never suggested that Israel's government is cowering.
Just the terrified families of the South.
Why do you people trivialise their suffering?
Any government would act to stop it, election or not.

Israel IS a secular state, and much less dominated by religion than any of its neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 02:27 PM

"Also, there is a religious dimension to this war as well."

If you take it to a fine definition, most wars have a religious dimension of one form or another. But, that does not make all wars religious wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 01:33 PM

"Leftie" and "rightie" are irrelevant in this context.
.......................
Actually I disagree with Stringsinger where he/she suggests that those firing rockets from Gaza are doing something that is ever going to "stop the settlements, the appropriation of land, the control of checkpoints, the military abuse".

In fact I'd suggest that the opposite is true - those firing the rockets are perhaps the most effective thing that helps Israel get away with that kind of thing, and gets on the way of there being developed an effective campaign of non-violent resistance, opposition and boycott, locally and world-wide, that could really challenge Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 10:27 AM

OK Keith, here's what you don't get. The Israeli government is not cowering at all, in fact,
their major goal is to control an inevitable Palestine, a hegemonic design which is leading to genocide. Israel has nuclear submarines, nuclear delivery systems, is highly armed and
one of the rogue states perceived by the rest of the world. The U.S. is the second.

The reason Israel wants to control a Palestinian state is the same reason the U.S. wants
to quash independence not out of fear but for control.

Hamas is a militant reaction to Israeli occupation and its goal to quash an independent
Palestinian state. This is why rockets are being fired. The Palestinian people want their state and not to be controlled by a hegemonic Israel.

Also, there is a religious dimension to this war as well. Israel, contrary to popular propaganda is not a secular state. It is a Jewish state and Judaism is a religion. This situation is analogous to those in the U.S. who insist that America is a Christian nation. If Romney had been elected, this would have been his view, even if he is Mormon.


The Hamas has to be seen as a violent reaction to Israeli oppression, something, Keith
that you don't accept apparently.

Since you bring up the "Leftie" card, that means to me that you are not as impartial
on this issue as you claim to be since you use this term indiscriminately.
I assume that your use of the term "Leftie" means that you are a "Rightie", not very objective at all.

The idea that the Israeli government is afraid of a Palestinian state is nonsense.
It's an issue of control and like the U.S., the elite here want to quash independence and democracy around the world. Israel is following suit.

Operation "Pillar of Cloud" is attempt for a strict abusive Israeli father to punish a recalcitrant Palestinian wayward child.

Don't tell me that Israel would stop the settlements, the appropriation of land,
the control of checkpoints, the military abuse if Hamas would stop firing rockets.

The Israeli idea of peace is controlling its neighbors.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 08:50 AM

No McGrath, the question is why was Hamas firing missiles into Israel BEFORE the Israelis responded.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 08:44 AM

Why don't they stop firing missiles from Gaza? For the same reason Israel continues to pour armed force into Gaza. Both sides currently are justifying their use of violence by the fact that the other side is using violence against them. That has been true for generations now. It can go on for ever.

Over any extended period there is no reason to believe that Israel's use of force has reduced the firing of missiles. Insofar as the number of missiles has decreased at various times (except in the very short term), other factors have been involved - including, it has claimed, the influence of Jaabari, the latest Hamas leader assassinated by Israel.

When, as a direct result of Israel escalation of violence, Israelis in Tel Aviv for the first time in a generation find themselves under missile attack, it is bizarre to see that escalation of violence as the way to reduce the danger of such attack, or as a rational act - except in cynical political terms relating to the pending election, when it does indeed make a kind of sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:21 AM

There is no justification for this massive military action on the part of Israel,

No government can remain inactive while its people are subject to bombardment.
Physical casualties in Israel are few because the terrified families are cowering in shelters instead of going to work or the children to school.

McG, I take it you agree that is unacceptable, so what other non-violent response can they make?
no honest person can believe that there is any question of that kind of justification for the present use of violence by either side.
I am an honest person.
Israel's actions have already brought about a large reduction in missile launches.
Again, what else could they have done?

Why don't the Gazans just stop firing missiles?
Why do you Lefties all ignore the effect the missiles have on their terrified targets?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 07:21 AM

Why is the governing authority of Gaza firing missiles into Israel?

No missiles no reaction, no violence.

Simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 05:59 AM

Civilians are being terrorised both in Gaza and in Israel. Obviously.

The only rational or moral justification for responding violently to violence is that it might serve to prevent and deter a violent response, otherwise it goes on for ever, as it has in the Holy Land throughout all our lifetimes. No sane person and no honest person can believe that there is any question of that kind of justification for the present use of violence by either side.

As the quote I gave puts it, "It's worse than a crime, it's a blunder."

We may rightly try to understand and explain what happens - but when we move on to support and encourage that blunder we share at least some symbolic responsibility for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 05:57 AM

It seems that Israel is again opening up another war with the Palestinians after a potential
cease fire was broken by them. Hamas' rockets are not potent enough to match the murder of innocent civilian Palestinians by Israel's aggression and subjugation.
The terrorizing of innocent Palestinians far outnumbers the casualties in Israel.
The defense against Hamas is a full out war as was "Cast Lead", this one called "The Pillar of Cloud" which has bombarded Gaza on Saturday. Netanyahu has threatened to launch a ground invasion. There is no justification for this massive military action on the part of Israel, the most militarized country in the world. The idea that Israel is the victim, here,
is ludicrous. They have nuclear weapons, also. The only reason they are allowed to war against the Palestinians is that they have the full support of the U.S.

Hamas is a dangerous and aggressive enemy but is not as capable of destruction as Israel.

For every few Israelis that have been killed, there have been far more Palestinian lives taken.

Keith, your appraisal of the conflict is wanting in terms of reality and facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 03:34 AM

However powerful Israel might appear, it has no defence against the missiles.
Iron Dome can only stop a few.
However powerful Israel, its people die if hit by rockets, and they get about a minute of warning.
So how can you deny the terrorising of civilians especially those in the South, but now beyond.
Freda, the current missile bombardment started back in October, when Hamas also dropped the pretence that it was not responsible for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 12 - 03:26 AM

Gaza, with Israel's foot resting heavily across its throat.
Not true Don.
No civilian supplies are resricted, and every Israeli has left, and the border with Egypt is open.

I deplore the violence of the small minority who fire rockets into Israel.
It is not a small minority.
It is Hamas, who apart from being a terrorist organisation, are also the government of Gaza.
Gaza is at war with Israel.
Why do you all expect kindness in return?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 09:19 PM

An anti-tank rocket was fired from the Palestinian resistance at an Israeli jeep on November 10, which Israel has described as the initial provocation in the latest round of hostilities.

However the Israeli forces encircling the Gaza Strip killed a mentally unfit man approaching the border fence on November 4. They called upon him to stop, and when he did not heed their calls, they shot him down and then prevented Palestinian medics from reaching him for hours, causing him to die from what were thought to be treatable injuries. And on November 8 Israeli forces shot at Ahmed Younis Khader Abu Daqqa, who was playing soccer with his friends 1500 metres from an Israeli military post when a gunman put a bullet through his abdomen. He died soon after. Ahmed was 13.

So that rocket from the Palestinians could be seen to have been responding to these attacks on civilians by Israelis.

It's clear as usual that either side could be targeted as the instigator.

In conflict resolution both parties have to admit their 50%. It is a terrible life for Israelis and Palestinians living close to the occupied areas, when politicians on both sides escalate rather than negotiate.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 07:56 PM

"They are on a road that leads to the destruction of Israel.
We can now see why they instigated all this."

Are you really that much of a fool Keith?

Do you really believe that David and Goliath crap, that Gaza has the ghost of a chance of seriously damaging Israel, with its vast superiority of both resources and armament technology, including nukes?

As well try to stop tanks with snowballs!

"If Israel did nothing, to break a non-existent cycle, it would become a country of cowering people in a land where normal life, work and school, are impossible."

- a country of cowering people in a land where normal life, work and school, are impossible. -

What a beautifully succinct and accurate description of the situation in Gaza, with Israel's foot resting heavily across its throat.

And there you have it Keith! What do people do when they are held in thrall by xenophobic neighbours?

THEY RESIST!

And before you start once again to put your choice of words into my mouth, I deplore the violence of the small minority who fire rockets into Israel. There is no possible justification for it, but I equally deplore the viciously indiscriminate punishment meted out to all Gazans by the psychopathic government of Israel and its murderous so-called "defence" force.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 06:08 PM

The only way to end it is for one side to refuse to continue the cycle
For Hamas it is not a cycle.
They are on a road that leads to the destruction of Israel.
We can now see why they instigated all this.
They have accumulated a vast stockpile of lovely new Iranian missiles in hiding places not known to Israel.

If Israel did nothing, to break a non-existent cycle, it would become a country of cowering people in a land where normal life, work and school, are impossible.

But, it is not only Palestinian fanatics who dream of the destruction of Israel, is it boys...

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:26 PM

Gerry Adams, not Gerry Hawes, I meant of course - mindslip there, I'm afraid...

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 05:23 PM

Things can only get better when the various parties act intelligently rather than reactively.

It is irrational to imagine that violence achieves an end to violence in response. The only result of Israel's last war on Gaza, aside from the enormous destruction and heartbreaking loss of life, most of it of totally innocent people, has been that Hamas is stronger today than it was then. (Though that leaves aside what I find it impossible to avoid seeing as a mainspring for Israel's action - political success for the Natanyahu administration, facing a fresh elections in a few weeks.)

Arguing in terms of where the cycle of violent atrocity and counter-atrocity begins is pointless. The only way to end it is for one side to refuse to continue the cycle. The people with whom peace will be made are the people who have been involved in organising violence. That is always the case. You don't reach a Good Friday Agreement by assassinating the likes of Gerry Hawes and Martin McGuinness (together with any unfortunate people who happen to be near them at the time of your "surgical strike").

The best comment on the killing of al-Jaabari is what Talleyrand said about a political killing carried out by Napoleon: "It was worse than a crime, it was a blunder." And that goes for the whole Gaza policy of Israel. (As well, of course, for the grotesque business of the futile as well as lethal missiles launched so ineffectually by Palestinians.)

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 11:43 AM

No McG.
The current round of missile attacks has resulted in the closure of all schools and many businesses in that area for about 3 weeks, and about a fifth of the entire population cowering within a minute of their shelters.
You could say that they should have acted after one week, or after two weeks, but not to let it go on until after the elections.

You need to ask why Hamas started it when they did, not Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 10:08 AM

..."at a certain point in time"...

Precisely. As in 2008, at the point in time when an election is pending. And it seems very possible, at a point there there might have been a danger that the cycle of violence round which local politics is built might be ended.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 07:43 AM

"[Israel] did not initiate this attack .... We continued to absorb a trickle of missiles, about a 100 missiles every day and at a certain point in time the government of Israel says 'enough is enough' and we are going to change the basic situation."

- Raanan Gissin, one-time adviser to former Israeli PM

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 07:31 AM

And their only chance for peace was a man who so hated Jews that he could not even speak to one?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 07:28 AM

"Israel may have destroyed its only chance for calm"

Ha, ha....that is rich....the recipient of 797 rockets during a ceasefire is destroying its only chance for calm......puhleese.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 12 - 06:46 AM

From The Times of Israel: Israeli involved in talks with Hamas says Jabari supported long-term ceasefire

"An Israeli peace activist who has been instrumental in talks with Hamas in the past said Thursday that Israel may have destroyed its only chance for calm by assassinating Gaza military chief Ahem Jabari a day earlier.

Gershon Baskin, the founder and former co-director of the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information, told the Times of Israel that Jabari was just hours from giving his okay to a long-term ceasefire with Israel when a car he was riding in was blown up by Israeli forces, marking the start of Operation Pillar of Defense."

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 08:33 PM

It's easy to make assumptions from afar, based on the media we get access to. But for those in the danger zones.. Both Israelis and Palestinians want negotiation, not bombs

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 08:19 PM

McGrath

The ceasefire ending Operation Cast Lead has been violated to the tune of 797 rockets and we haven't heard a word of condemnation from you...why is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 08:02 PM

This latest round of rocket attacks started back in October and was unprovoked.
Hamas knew as well as anyone about the elections, even though they don't have such things.
No government answerable to its people could allow such terrorising of its civilians without striking back.
Schools and businesses shut for weeks and terrified families cowering in shelters.
Would you tolerate that?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 07:54 PM

"This is a matter of partnership between those on both sides who have given their minds over to violence."

I'm sorry but there would have been no violence from Israel if there had been no rockets launched from Gaza. Why were the rockets launched?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 07:41 PM

You mean that Hamas agreed to that ceasefire in the expectation that Israel would carry out that assassination massacre, in the knowledge that this would bring about an escalation of violence by Hamas in the knowledge that that would allow a massive retaliation which would...

I'm afraid you could print that last post replacing "Hamas" by Isreal", "Arab street" by "Israeli street" and "rabid Jew haters" by "rabid Arab haters", and would be just as (partially) true.

This is a matter of partnership between those on both sides who have given their minds over to violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 06:58 PM

You don't think Hamas knew exactly what the response would be? Don't be such a fool, this is what they always do then hide behind civilians who are killed and wounded so the "Arab street", rabid Jew haters and their useful idiots spew out their own venom.....it's getting old.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 06:50 PM

A ceasefire appears to have been available, bringing an end to the recent spasm of futile rocket attacks. Israel chose instead to carry out an assassination of one of the other side's leaders - eight other people were also killed in this assassination, including a seven-year-old girl. In doing so they ensured a massive escalation of violence by Hamas, which provided the justification for an even greater - far greater - escalation of violence by Israel.

I think it is reasonable to suspect that the fact that an election is due in Israel in a few weeks is not unconnected to this.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 06:45 PM

This commentator has got it right: In Gaza, Hamas military leader Ahmed Jabari got what he deserved

Here is a list of Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades', of which Jabari was commander, attacks against Israel:

    1993 April 16: A Hamas suicide car bomb kills two in Mehola Junction bombing.
    1994 October 19: A suicide bomber detonates on a bus in Tel Aviv, killing 22 and injuring 56. Hamas claims responsibility.[15]
    1994 December 25: A suicide bomber detonates at a bus stop in Jerusalem, wounding 12.[15]
    1995 April 9: Two suicide bombers detonate in Gaza, killing one American, seven IDF soldiers and injuring 50. Hamas and Islamic Jihad both claim responsibility.[16]
    1995 August 21: A suicide bomber detonates on a bus, killing one American, four IDF soldiers and injuring 100. Hamas claims responsibility.[16]
    1997 March 21: A Hamas suicide bomber detonated at a Tel Aviv sidewalk café, killing three women and wounding 46.[16]
    1997 September 4: Three suicide bombers detonate in Jerusalem, killing four and injuring up to 200. Hamas claims responsibility.[17]
    1998 August 27: A bomb in a garbage bin explodes in Tel Aviv during rush hour injuring 14. Hamas claims responsibility.[17]
    1998 October 19: Two grenades thrown into a crowd at the Be'er Sheva bus station during rush hour injuring 59. Hamas claims responsibility.[18]
    1998 October 29: A Hamas suicide car bomber attempts to ram a school bus head on near the Gush Katif Junction. An IDF jeep escorting the bus blocked the bomber who detonated the vehicle, killing the driver of the jeep and injuring two others. Six people in the bus received light injuries.[18]

Beginning of Second Intifada September, 2000.

    2001 January 1: A Hamas suicide car bomber detonates in the city of Netanya, injuring 59. One victim died seven days later.[19]
    2001 February 14: A Hamas suicide bomber plowed a bus into a crowd and detonated, killing 8 and injuring 21.[20]
    2001 March 4: A Hamas suicide bomber detonates in the city of Netanya, three killed and 68 injured.[19]
    2001 March 28: A Hamas suicide bomber blew himself up amidst a group of students waiting at a bus stop in Qalqilya in the West Bank. Two killed and four injured.[19]
    2001 April 22: A Hamas suicide bomber blew himself up Kfar Saba killing one and injuring 50.[19]
    2001 May 18: An Hamas suicide bomber blew himself up at the entrance of a shopping mall in the city of Netanya. Five people were killed with more than 100 injured.[19]
    2001 June 1: A suicide bomber linked to Hamas kills 21 and injures 76 in the Dolphinarium massacre in Tel Aviv.
    2001 August 9: A suicide bomber detonates in Jerusalem killing fifteen and wounding 130 in the Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing. Hamas and Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine both claimed responsibility.
    2001 September 4: A Hamas suicide bomber detonates in West Jerusalem injuring 15.[19]
    2001 November 26: A suicide bomber detonates at the Erez Crossing injuring 2. Hamas claimed responsibility.[21]
    2001 December 4: Two suicide bombers detonated one after the other followed by a car bomb in a mall in West Jerusalem. 11 killed and more than 130 injured. Hamas claimed responsibility.[21]
    2001 December 2: A suicide bomber boarded an Israeli bus traveling from the Neveh Sha'anan district in Haifa, paying the driver with a large bill he then blew himself up killing 15 and injuring 40. Hamas claimed responsibility.[21]
    2002 March 9: 11 people were killed and 54 injured, 10 of them seriously, when a suicide bomber exploded in the crowded Moment cafe in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[22]
    2002 March 31: A suicide bomber kills 15 and injures over 40 in an Arab restaurant in Haifa in the Matza restaurant massacre. Hamas claimed responsibility.[23]
    2002 April 10: Six IDF soldiers and two civilians were killed and 22 injured in a suicide bombing on a bus near Kibbutz Yagur, east of Haifa. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[23]
    2002 May 7: 16 people were killed and 55 wounded in a suicide bombing in a crowded pool hall in Rishon Lezion, southeast of Tel-Aviv. According to the Israeli government, Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[24]
    2002 May 19: Three people were killed and 59 injured when a suicide bomber disguised as a soldier, blew himself up in the market in Netanya. Both Hamas and the PFLP took responsibility for the attack.[24]
    2002 June 18: A suicide bomber detonates on a bus in Jerusalem in the Patt junction massacre. The attack kills 19 people and wounds over 74. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
    2002 July 16: Nine people were killed and 20 injured in a terrorist attack on a bus traveling from Bnei Brak to Emmanuel. An explosive charge was detonated next to the bullet-resistant bus. The terrorists waited in ambush, reportedly wearing Israeli army uniforms, and opened fire on the bus. Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, the DFLP, Hamas and the Islamic Jihad all claimed responsibility for the attack.[25]
    2002 July 31: Nine people, including five Americans, were killed and 85 wounded when a bomb detonated by a cell phone exploded in the Frank Sinatra student center cafeteria on the Hebrew University's Mt. Scopus campus. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack but expressed regret for the death of the Americans.[26]
    2002 August 4: Nine people were killed and some 50 wounded in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus at the Meron junction in the Galilee. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[27]
    2002 September 19: Six people were killed and about 70 wounded when a terrorist detonated a bomb in a bus opposite the Great Synagogue in Tel-Aviv. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[citation needed]
    2002 October 10: One man was killed and about 30 people were wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up while trying to board a bus across from Bar-Ilan University on the Geha highway. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[citation needed]
    2002 October 27: Three soldiers were killed and about 20 people were wounded in a suicide bombing in Ariel. The victims were killed while trying to prevent the terrorist from detonating the bomb. The terrorist was identified as a member of Hamas.[citation needed]
    2003 May 17: A suicide bomber detonated himself next to a pregnant Israeli woman and her husband at a public square in Hebron. Hamas claimed responsibility.[citation needed]
    2003 May 19: A suicide bomber on a bicycle attacked an Israeli checkpoint on the Gaza Strip. Hamas claimed responsibility.[citation needed]
    2003 June 11: A Hamas Palestinian suicide bomber, dressed as an ultra-Orthodox Jew, detonated his explosives belt on a bus in downtown Jerusalem. Palestinian terrorists have attempted 11 suicide bombings and murdered 23 Israelis in the last 4 days, since Palestinians "accepted" the "roadmap for peace" and the end of violence.[citation needed]
    2004 January 14: A violent suicide bomber blew herself up at one of the entrances to Gaza's main Erex crossing terminal to Israel, killing three Israeli soldiers and a civilian and wounding twelve others. Hamas and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade (Fatah) jointly claimed responsibility. Hamas stated it used a woman suicide bomber for the first time in order to counter Israeli precautions.[citation needed]
    2004 January 17: The armed wing of Hamas claimed responsibility for an attack in which two gunmen infiltrated Kiryat Arba, near Hebron, and killed a settler and wounded two others. The armed attackers knocked on the door and opened fire inside when it was answered.[citation needed]
    2004 January 29: A suicide bomber blew up a bus near the prime minister's residence, killing ten bystanders and wounding at least fifty. Prime Minister Sharon was not home at the time of the bombing. The al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack. Hamas has also claimed responsibility for the bombing and denounced al-Aqsa. Hamas has also sent a picture of the suicide bomber to the media to verify their claim.[citation needed]
    2004 March 14: Ten Israeli civilians and two Palestinians suicide-bombers were killed when they blew themselves up at the southern port of Ashdod. One bomb went off at a citrus fruit packaging factory and the other at an office just outside the perimeter of the port. A cache of grenades was found later hidden in a bag with a false bottom. Hamas and the al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades claimed joint responsibility for the blasts, stating they were in retaliation for recent members deaths in Jenin.[citation needed]
    2004 June 28: Two Israelis were killed and about fifteen others were injured when two home-made Qassam rockets landed on Sederot. Hamas has claimed responsibility for the attack.[citation needed]
    2004 June 29: A Palestininan rocket attack near a kindergarten in Sederot killed a child and a man. More than ten people were injured. Hamas has claimed responsibility for the attack.[citation needed]
    2004 July 25: children were injured when an anti-tank rocket was fired at a community center in Neve Dekalim. The rocket was fired from Khan Yunis and came as thousands of people were gathered at the center to protest against the Gaza disengagement plan. The children were playing in the yard outside of the center when the rocket struck. The Al-Qassam Brigades, a Hamas-linked militant group, claimed responsibility for the attack.[citation needed]
    2004 August 31: Two buses near the Beersheba municipality building were blown up by a suicide bomber. The suicide bomber took advantage of the fact that the two buses were standing together. He blew up a bomb on one bus and then exploded a second bomb on the second bus. At least fifteen people were killed and around eighty-five injured. The military wing of Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack, saying that it as a response to the assassination of Yasin, a leading Hamas official.[citation needed]
    2004 September 7: A rocket was fired at the Sederot settlement. One person sustained slight injuries. The military wing of Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[citation needed]

End of Second Intifada.

    2008 February 27: In February, 257 rockets and 228 mortars were fired from the Gaza Strip into the western Negev causing five injuries and on 27 February the death of a 47 year old student at Sapir College. Hamas has previously claimed responsibility for rocket barrages.[28]

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 06:33 PM

"So Netanyahu's election campaign has started up again"

Right, he conspired with Hamas to get them to launch hundreds of rockets into Israel knowing that the Israelis would be compelled into action to put a stop to it.

Try again....that's a fail.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 02:28 PM

Ah, jeez, Kevin - don't try to confuse Bruce with facts - that's a lost cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 01:05 PM

FRom JerusalePost:

Report: Egypt mediating ceasefire between Israel, Hamas
By JPOST.COM STAFF
LAST UPDATED: 11/11/2012 21:18
Egyptian officials are mediating between Israel and Hamas in an attempt to reach a ceasefire agreement to end the escalation of violence in the South, Israel Radio reported on Sunday.

Palestinian terrorists in Gaza have fired nearly 80 rockets and mortar shells into southern Israel in the past 24 hours, wounding three. Six Palestinians have been killed in IAF strikes on Gaza.

At this point (with a tentative ceasefire agreement not merely in negotiation, but actually due to place, according to some Israeli sources) Israel carried out a targetted assassination of Hamas military chief Ahmed Jabari, with the totally predictable consequence of an immediate escalation of attacks and counterattacks, and deaths on both sides.

Just what the doctor ordered...

It's crazy for Hamas to allow themselves to be used by Netanyahu in this way. "Crazy" includes "wicked" of course - but the so does using that craziness for political advantage.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 10:51 AM

So Netanyahu's election campaign has started up again. On very much the same lines as the last one.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 08:11 AM

"GAZA (Reuters) - A Hamas rocket killed three Israelis north of the Gaza Strip on Thursday, drawing the first blood from Israel as the Palestinian death toll rose to 13 and a military showdown lurched closer to all-out war with an invasion of the enclave.
Israeli warplanes bombed targets in and around Gaza city, where tall buildings trembled. Plumes of smoke and dust furled into a sky laced with the vapor trails of outgoing rockets.
Egyptian President Mohamed Mursi said in a televised address to the nation that Israel's attacks on the Gaza Strip were "unacceptable" and would lead to instability in the region.
In a telephone conversation with U.S. President Barack Obama, Mursi said he had discussed "ways to reach calm and end the aggression".
The Palestinian Islamist group Hamas claimed it had fired a one-ton, Iranian-made Fajr 5 rocket at Tel Aviv in what would be a major escalation, but there was no reported impact in the Israeli metropolis 50 km (30 miles) north of the enclave.
Israel's sworn enemy Iran, which supports and arms Hamas, condemned the offensive begun by the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) as "organized terrorism"."





So, Don et al, I hope you are satisfied.

When Iran lets them have a nuclear weapon, the fallout from the explosion in Israel will kill most if not all the Palestinians, including all those children that the Palestinians would rather have a 1 ton missile to attack Israel than the food you think they need.


BTW, no one has answered my question about why the border should NOT be the 1924 ( I think) lines that were the LAST ones accepted by the Arab world.


200

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 07:52 AM

4 years ago, to try and stop the relentless rocket bombardment against its towns, Israel mounted a brief incursion.
Hamas fought from built up areas so building were damaged.

No rockets, no reason to invade.
Using their own people and buildings as shields was a war crime.