BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:33 PM

""Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:38 AM

""Keith A thinks that if the accusation is disputed you must look at both sides of the argument.
That is because Keith A is not a prejudiced bigot.""

Keith A has been asked numerous times to look at both sides of the argument.

To which Keith A has repeatedly responded that Israel is innocent, Israel is right, Israel treats its minorities well and Israel always acts in self defence.

Keith A has never acknowledged that there ARE two sides to the argument.

Keith A has reacted in a one sided, bigotted manner, ignored evidence presented, belittled and denigrated every evidential source other than the Israeli government, even when the source was Israeli soldiers, Israeli human rights organisations and Israeli political opposition.

Keith A has not produced one single piece of hard evidence for his stance, and consistently relied on "Israel refute this"....WELL, THEY WOULD WOULDN'T THEY!.

Is this catalogue of deeply entrenched bias a picture of the balanced and fair minded individual that Keith A loudly proclaims himself to be?

In my opinion NO! IT IS NOT!

Don T.""

Post completely ignored by Keith A, who HAS no answer, because his bias is revealed in almost everything he says.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

""Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 06:13 AM

""The one with the Regev quote was this one, May 2012.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement"" (the guest in question was Keith)

Thank you guest, I was aware of that.

Jim's post however was in two parts, and I was referring to what came before the above.

Typical of Keith to use his trademark cherry pick to answer the point that enables him to dodge the issue, rather than the one which was actually made.

Ir still remains the case that there was an eight year gap between the publication of the report on that TOXIC (it really is toxic Keith) site and Regev's sudden desire to move the Bedouins, in spite of which, the Bedouins are still there.

I suspect that they will be the last to be evacuated and that most of them will be placed in the poorest townships, with high crime levels, as has been reported.

The fact is that they are farmers with the capacity to supply food to the nation, while sustaining themselves without government aid

They have been reduced to penury by government refusal to acknowledge their long established tenure of that land, as evidenced by the "non recognition" of their villages and the fencing off of their grazing to reduce their livestock and wreck their financial independence.

Lastly, of course, the Bedouin were already in residence in that area when the decision to locate a toxic site there was made.

Don T.""

Yet another awkward post ignored completely by "fair minded Keith", who vigorously insisted that he always answers posts honestly (another hollow laugh) and never ignores them.

Almost twelve hours after the posting of the second one, he has yet to acknowledge the existence of either, or to answer either honestly, or dishonestly.

Perhaps because he is only able to do the latter?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:29 PM

BBC.
As it happened: Egypt election result
Key Points
Mohammed Mursi of the Muslim Brotherhood has won Egypt's presidential election

He took 51.73% of the votes cast, some 13.23 million votes in total

Former PM Ahmed Shafiq polled 12.35 million votes, the electoral commission announced
Huge cheers went up from thousands gathered in Cairo's Tahrir Square after the result was known

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:23 PM

No.
You are demonstrating your profound ignorance AGAIN Don.
You make a fool of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:05 PM

""The Muslim Brotherhood are the freely elected government of Israel,""

REALLY???

You're even confusing yourself!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 03:52 PM

Correction, "freely elected government of Egypt"

totally ignored the evidence of the Jewish nurse who said she saw Israeli troops observing the massacre and doing nothing,.

Her testimony was given at the enquiry.
She only saw soldiers outside the camp.
They would not have been able to see into the warren of streets.

then hiding the evidence by bulldozing the bodies into the ground
You made that up Jim.
She reported no such thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 03:43 PM

Comparing the situation in Israel with that of middle England is utter ******* nonsense and you know it.
You are wrong.
Israel is fanatical about preserving its aquifers, and the regime described by Haaretz is exactly the same as that used here.
There are no issues around ordinary waste sites.
It is a non-issue.

The Muslim Brotherhood are the freely elected government of Israel, and unlike Hamas will have to seek re-election.
They are not at war with their electorate.
You made that up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 01:29 PM

"Your are being ridiculous about this."
'Fraid it's you being ridiculous Keithie.
Comparing the situation in Israel with that of middle England is utter ******* nonsense and you know it.
"What is your reason Jim?"
You've given the reason yourself; they are an "oppressive regime" who are presently at war with their own people.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 12:27 PM

According to the thread title, Israel has been unUNfriended. Gotta love it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 11:49 AM

As far as the toxicity of the site is concerened -proof that it is has been long provided and you have refused to provide one single reason why it isn't.
Yes I have.
Ordinary properly run refuse sites are not toxic and do not pollute.

Your crass "I've lived near..." is total shit as has been pointed out and ignored by you
It is true.
You can not point out that I do not live near them, they are all around Hertford.
My daughter in Ware has one across the road from her.
Your are being ridiculous about this.
It is a non-issue.

Now wait.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 11:43 AM

believed rather than the Egyptians demanding democracy

The democracy demonstrators won.
The Muslim Brotherhood were freely elected.
They might have been expected to sympathise with Hamas as brother Islamists.
The attack through the tunnels pushed them too far.
They not only closed Hamas' tunnels, they pumped in a million gallons of shit.
I see no reason not to believe them about why.
What is your reason Jim?

Personally I would rather give credence to the statements of the democratic forces in Egypt rather than an (in your own words) oppressive regime
Yes, I too would rather give credence to the Muslim brothers rather than Hamas.
We agree Jim.


"Even Jim says he does not deny this fact Don."
You challenged me for suggesting that you denied it Jim!
Do you deny it or not?

It will be a few hours before I can finish this demolition job.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 11:38 AM

"it is impossible to deal with it all at once!"
Not to a normal literate human being it ain't, just an excuse to avoid answering - which you have done none of.
"It is all old stuff too."
Been there, done that
When do massacres and human rights abuses become out-of-date?
As far as the toxicity of the site is concerened -proof that it is has been long provided and you have refused to provide one single reason why it isn't.
Your crass "I've lived near..." is total shit as has been pointed out and ignored by you
Done and dusted!
"I will rubbish the rest of you ludicrous post when I can."
Can't wait.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 10:29 AM

You put such a lot of bollocks into one post, it is impossible to deal with it all at once!
It is all old stuff too.

All "Ordinary" refuse sites are toxic when there are people in the area depending on their livelihood and water from polluted soil.

No they are not.
I live near some very large ones.
Properly run as the Israeli ones are, they do not pollute the land or the water.
The rubbish is buried at the end of each day's tipping so there is no problem with vermin.
I have told you this enough times, why do you you keep demonstrating your stupid ignorance?
Ordinary refuse sites are not toxic.

I will rubbish the rest of you ludicrous post when I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 10:25 AM

"Even Jim says he does not deny this fact Don."
Don't you dare use me for your lying arguments - I asked you to produce evidence that I have said anything on the matter - you haven't and I didn't.
"the whole world not accepting it are you, Don, and President Assad of Syria"
Utter crap - all we have had so far is a reported statement from Reuter, quoting an (in your own words) oppressive regime making unqualified claims - no more.
Personally I would rather give credence to the statements of the democratic forces in Egypt rather than an (in your own words) oppressive regime - that you would prefer to believe an (in your own words) oppressive regime, says what needs to be said about you and your lying case.
"The world" has yet to make a pronouncement on the matter - perhaps we can ask Captain Janeway to ask its opinion as she zooms past on her way to fight the Borgs.
Your arguments get more moronic as you put them forward and your persistent practice of lying to make your case is evidence (the only piece you have produced so far) that you have no case to make.
STOP LYING
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM

"I thought the Muslim Brotherhood were elected"
Are you claiming that the regime you have persistently described as "oppressive" and that you used to describe as persecuting Bedouins are no longer this and are to be believed rather than the Egyptians demanding democracy
Are these protesters what – terrorists?
"OK, but that is the only explanation that makes sense."
You have ignored the reasons given by the democratic opposition for the flooding – if that doesn't make sense – show why.
"Ordinary refuse sites are not toxic, so what is your point?"
All "Ordinary" refuse sites are toxic when there are people in the area depending on their livelihood and water from polluted soil.
You have been invited to show how the specified conditions do not coincide to the reported conditions on this site – are these reports "anti-Semite lies" even though they have been drawn from scientific journals and reports from the Israeli authorities – you have been given all the links.
An added factor to the site's toxicity is the vermin which scavenge from these sites long after the rubbish has been bulldozed.
The Israelis have put no plans forward to make this site habitable; you have declined the invitation to show that they have. The likelihood of them carrying out the necessary work is contradicted by the fact that they have known about other toxic sites for over a decade and have done nothing whatever.
Had it not been for worldwide outrage and threats of war crimes proceedings the Israelis would have moved the Bedouins onto the site long before now.
"in the whole world not accepting it are you, Don, and President Assad of Syria."
Don't be fucking ridiculous.
"and pointed out the lack of evidence to refute it."
A total lie – you have denied it and have admitted that the only claims for Israel not being part of the massacre comes from the Israelis and have been given a mountain of evidence to show they were – you even went as far as to accuse Israeli soldiers who were there as being "untrustworthy" (anti-Semitic, no doubt), and have totally ignored the evidence of the Jewish nurse who said she saw Israeli troops observing the massacre and doing nothing, then hiding the evidence by bulldozing the bodies into the ground.
They then erected a sports stadium over the mass graves to make sure they couldn't be found.
How long are you going to continue this disgusting nonsense?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 06:26 AM

""Everyone else accepts the obvious truth.""

Maybe that's the problem. It is obvious to YOU and the Israelis.

Even Jim says he does not deny this fact Don.
You are on your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 06:21 AM

""Everyone else accepts the obvious truth.""

Maybe that's the problem. It is obvious to YOU and the Israelis.

Any other country on earth may move its weaponry within, or close to, its own borders and it will pass unremarked by the rest of the world.

Any country, that is, except Syria, Lebanon, Iran and Egypt.

And what major feature do these countries share? They all have the misfortune to be near neighbours of Israel, the only state on the planet (apart from the US) which respects no national borders whatsoever.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 06:13 AM

""The one with the Regev quote was this one, May 2012.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement""

Thank you guest, I was aware of that.

Jim's post however was in two parts, and I was referring to what came before the above.

Typical of Keith to use his trademark cherry pick to answer the point that enables him to dodge the issue, rather than the one which was actually made.

Ir still remains the case that there was an eight year gap between the publication of the report on that TOXIC (it really is toxic Keith) site and Regev's sudden desire to move the Bedouins, in spite of which, the Bedouins are still there.

I suspect that they will be the last to be evacuated and that most of them will be placed in the poorest townships, with high crime levels, as has been reported.

The fact is that they are farmers with the capacity to supply food to the nation, while sustaining themselves without government aid

They have been reduced to penury by government refusal to acknowledge their long established tenure of that land, as evidenced by the "non recognition" of their villages and the fencing off of their grazing to reduce their livestock and wreck their financial independence.

Lastly, of course, the Bedouin were already in residence in that area when the decision to locate a toxic site there was made.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:58 AM

Last Guest was me.
Please give details of the "repeated" vetoes against prosecution Don.

And Don, this was your post about the article.

Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 08:19 AM

""Jim, the settlements around that toxic dump are illegal and Israel is trying to move them away.
As the responsible Israeli government official said, in one of your own links, "No one should be living next to a toxic dump," Regev says. "The solution is that all Bedouin[s] live in recognised communities where they receive the services they deserve.""

Are we supposed to believe that the Israeli government has proved incapable of moving them in the nine years since that article was published?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:48 AM

""The evidence to convict is just not there in any of the cases you have raised.
Find an unequivocal crime and put it up.""

Well there you have it folks, our self appointed judge and jury, the "fair minded" (hollow laugh) Keith A has found Israel innocent.

In the real world, however, there is more than enough evidence to try the case in the International Court, and that is exactly what should happen.

The only reason it hasn't happened is the US and UK support for Israel, which repeatedly vetoes any such move.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:46 AM

No Don, that was a different article.
The one with the Regev quote was this one, May 2012.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement


Are you trying to imply that Palestinian recruits would be trusted, or welcomed, by the IDF?

That is simply laughable.

A few do choose to join.
Also many Druze Arabs join.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:38 AM

""Keith A thinks that if the accusation is disputed you must look at both sides of the argument.
That is because Keith A is not a prejudiced bigot.""

Keith A has been asked numerous times to look at both sides of the argument.

To which Keith A has repeatedly responded that Israel is innocent, Israel is right, Israel treats its minorities well and Israel always acts in self defence.

Keith A has never acknowledged that there ARE two sides to the argument.

Keith A has reacted in a one sided, bigotted manner, ignored evidence presented, belittled and denigrated every evidential source other than the Israeli government, even when the source was Israeli soldiers, Israeli human rights organisations and Israeli political opposition.

Keith A has not produced one single piece of hard evidence for his stance, and consistently relied on "Israel refute this"....WELL, THEY WOULD WOULDN'T THEY!.

Is this catalogue of deeply entrenched bias a picture of the balanced and fair minded individual that Keith A loudly proclaims himself to be?

In my opinion NO! IT IS NOT!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:23 AM

""Why don't Palestinian Israelis join then?""

Are you trying to imply that Palestinian recruits would be trusted, or welcomed, by the IDF?

That is simply laughable.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:20 AM

""It was last May Don.""

Was it Keith! I could have sworn the article showed the findings of the Ministry of Health epidemiological study were published in June 2004.

Now, let's see,......does that sound like last May? NO! Not even to a child in primary school.

Maybe last May was when they finally decided the Bedouins were weakened enough to be more easily shifted, after eight years of inaction?

The relevant article is posted again since you seem to have skipped past it. What else is new?

""A bit more
Jim Carroll
"POWERLESS" BEDOUIN VILLAGE STILL SEEKING HEALTH CARE
BY AM JOHAL
"Israel's Negev desert is facing a public health crisis. After much public pressure, in June
2004, the Ministry of Health revealed the findings of its epidemiological study - there are
65% higher rates of cancer and mortality for those living within a 20km radius of the
Ramat Hovav Industrial Zone. Some 350,000 people live within this danger zone,
including the residents of Beer Sheva. The Bedouin village of Wadi el Na'am is located
500m from Ramat Hovav - which encompasses 19 hazardous agro and petro-chemical
factories, and a toxic waste incinerator. The site has ironically won state awards for
environmental stewardship for four years in a row. In all the paradoxes of Israel, this one
defies expectations. A few years ago, even the IDF vacated the Manos military camp, 2
km to the north of the factories after soldiers became ill, and complained about a fierce
stench from the site."
http://www.caiaweb.org/old-site/files/johal-negev.pdf

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 02:12 PM

They are a military regime at war with their own people
I thought the Muslim Brotherhood were elected.
Anyway, whatever you think of them, they should know why they closed the tunnels.

And I provided the definition of "toxic"
Yes you did even though we all already knew.
Ordinary refuse sites are not toxic, so what is your point?

"The weapons were for Hezbollah."
No evidence of that, but there you go, you aren't big on evidence, are you?
OK, but that is the only explanation that makes sense.
The only people in the whole world not accepting it are you, Don, and President Assad of Syria.
Everyone else accepts the obvious truth.

you support their carrying out mass murder by denying it,
Not true Jim.
I just related Israel's version and pointed out the lack of evidence to refute it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 01:40 PM

"They should know why they closed the tunnels."
They are a military regime at war with their own people - though, as I pointed out, they are saying what you need them to say so that's the line you took - gland you put this up though, another hole in your already tattered credibility.
"I provided a Haaretz piece about Israel's well run refuse dumps."
And I provided the definition of "toxic" to give you an opportunity to prove the proposed site is not poisonous - you didn't, which proved fairly conclusively that it is - still open for contradiction though
"Which they haven't done in over a dozen years, and have no plans to do so in the foreseeably future - how long does it take to prevent people, from respiratory failure, cancer.... brought about by the conditions they are forced to exist in?
"The weapons were for Hezbollah."
No evidence of that, but there you go, you aren't big on evidence, are you?
"denying it except you and Don."
Don't suppose you'd care to point out where I said I deny it - won't hold my breath though.
"because of your prejudice."
Wasn't it you who said the only argument against Israeli atrocities, was that provided by the Israelis themselves, yet still you support their carrying out mass murder by denying it, based only on their evidence - dig it out if you want
Thanks for the opportunity again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 09:59 AM

Also,
" Hamas taxes everything that comes through them, shutting down operators who don't pay up. Tunnel revenue is estimated to provide Hamas with as much as $750 million a year. Hamas has also smuggled in cash from exiled leaders and patrons in Syria, Iran, and Qatar that helps keep it afloat.

Samir told me that Hamas leaders and local officials are in business with tunnel operators, protecting them from prosecution when workers like his brother die needlessly. He's convinced that corruption and bribery are rampant. His friends agreed. "Damn the municipality!" Suhail blurted out as Samir spoke.
National Geographic

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 09:42 AM

Don,

OK- waiting on YOUR answer...



"OK I'll trade you question for question BB.

If, as you claim, the border was open and free to cross, why were there any tunnels in use?"


The tunnels are in use BECAUSE the Gazans are bringing in material ( that you seem to approve of) that is being used to attack both Israel AND Egypt. PROHIBITED weapons, and materials to produce them, are stopped BY THE EGYPTIANS as well as the Israelis.- Something about a UN declaration that Gaza is supposed to be civilian, if it wants to NOT be destroyed by the ONGOING ( i.e., since 1948, and NEVER stopped) war the Arabs have been pursuing against Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 09:16 AM

Some people accuse Israel of "war crimes and atrocities."
""Israel refutes this"".

And Keith A. of Hertford thinks that this constitutes evidence.

No he does not.
Keith A thinks that if the accusation is disputed you must look at both sides of the argument.
That is because Keith A is not a prejudiced bigot.

The evidence to convict is just not there in any of the cases you have raised.
Find an unequivocal crime and put it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 09:12 AM

Are we supposed to believe that the Israeli government has proved incapable of moving them in the nine years since that article was published?
It was last May Don.

By whose standards is the Egyptian Independent an ""obscure Egyptian magazine""?
I cited the Egyptian government.
They should know why they closed the tunnels.

Ismail Khaldi was born in Khawaled, a village near Haifa.[3] He is the third of eleven children.[1] He lived in a Bedouin tent until the age of eight. He walked four miles round trip to attend school[2] and tended flocks of sheep. He said his family's ties with its Jewish neighbors go back to the days of the early Zionist pioneers from Eastern Europe who settled in the Galilee region in the 1920s.

And many deprived people in other countries join the armies of those countries.
Why don't Palestinian Israelis join then?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 08:27 AM

Some people accuse Israel of "war crimes and atrocities."
""Israel refutes this"".

And Keith A. of Hertford thinks that this constitutes evidence.

Not only blinkered, biased and bigotted, but terminally dumb!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 08:19 AM

""Jim, the settlements around that toxic dump are illegal and Israel is trying to move them away.
As the responsible Israeli government official said, in one of your own links, "No one should be living next to a toxic dump," Regev says. "The solution is that all Bedouin[s] live in recognised communities where they receive the services they deserve.""

Are we supposed to believe that the Israeli government has proved incapable of moving them in the nine years since that article was published?

Or is it much more likely that they have not been particularly bothered?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 08:13 AM

""If you wish to continue in your claims of "Not everybody there was Hamas because they could not have gotten over the border" YOU need to show when it was re-closed and why.""

OK I'll trade you question for question BB.

If, as you claim, the border was open and free to cross, why were there any tunnels in use?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 08:06 AM

""Jim, whatever your obscure Egyptian magazine says, the Egyptian government and security forces state that the attackers used the tunnels and state that as the reason for the closure and flooding.""

Another of your feeble sidesteps Keith.

By whose standards is the Egyptian Independent an ""obscure Egyptian magazine""? It's a classic false argument to attempt to lower the credibility of a source with which you disagree, and fundamentally dishonest.

Entirely worthy of you!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 07:55 AM

""No lies from me Don, and no bigotry.
Your prejudice prevents you from accepting obvious truths.
The attackers used the tunnels.
The convoy was carrying weapons to Hezbollah.
You are indeed a deeply prejudiced bigot.""

When did you last hear a bigot say: ""Or maybe the Bedouins were entirely responsible. That's the whole point Keith. There are several possibilities, and I don't pretend to know who actually did the deed and you certainly cannot claim to know either.

You, however, not knowing are bound and determined to exclude Israel alone from any involvement.

You have ignored my entirely credible analysis of the situation with respect to WHO has most to gain, because responding would mean that you would have to refute it logically, which you cannot do.""

So I'm supposed to be a bigot because I point out that there are several possibilities, and refuse to take a doctrinaire position in support of the one you insist upon?

So, here's a challenge for you.

Tell me who you believe has most to gain from the border closure and the complete subjugation of Gaza to the tender mercies of the IDF?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 07:38 AM

""He rose to high rank in the army and became a diplomat.""

As I said, living better than any of the Negev Bedouins. What would he know, or care, about their day to day existence?

""Large numbers of Bedouin join the army, swearing their oath of allegiance to Israel on the Koran.""

And many deprived people in other countries join the armies of those countries.

It's one way of getting three square meals a day, but it doesn't mean that all their brethren are treated well. Rather the reverse, in fact!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 07:24 AM

I cited the Egyptian government.
They should know why they closed the tunnels.

I provided a Haaretz piece about Israel's well run refuse dumps.

Your own link was about Israel wanting to move Bedouin AWAY from toxic sites.

The weapons were for Hezbollah.
There is just no-one in the world denying it except you and Don.
It is an accepted fact.
THAT IS WHY UN HAS NOT CONDEMNED.

You have been wrong about everything Jim, because of your prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 06:58 AM

"to rake up an event from over thirty years ago"
Thank you once again for bringing to our attention a massacre of 3,000 unarmed and unresisting refugees, facilitated and participated in by the Israeli regime and supported by you.
You have yet to explain why the fact that it happened thirty years ago is relevant – if nothing else, it serves as a reminder (if a reminder were needed) that the slaughter and persecution of civilians is not a new phenomenon, but has been going on for decades, and continues.
"Egypt acted against the tunnels because the attack came from Gaza."
The Egyptian regime, described by you as an oppressive human rights abuser, appears to have got its act together and at last claimed that the closure of the tunnels was a defensive move; others, more democratic and more representative of the Egyptian people, have claimed otherwise – you've had the statement.
The "obscure journal" you refer to is in fact is claimed to be "a publication demanding democratic change in Egypt and the Middle East and The English Language sister paper to Egypt's leading Independent daily newspaper opposing the present regime" – in fact, trying to put right everything you have described Egypt and the Arab nations of being guily of. On this occasion you will support the version of events that suits your particular line – as I said, "strange bedfellows".
"The Israeli airstrike was justified and no significant nation or UN has "condemned" them."
As you said, the UN said that if they are guilty of what they have been accused of, they should be condemned.
"The weapons were destined for Hezbollah who are now murdering Syrian people for Assad."
Nobody has provided proof on this, but you aren't big on proof, having none of your own.
"falsely claim"
You have had your proof, have been given ample opportunity to contradict it and have have refused –game, set and match.
"Israel seeks to move Bedouin away from illegal settlements near a toxic dump.
Ordinary dumps are harmless when properly run, as Israel's are."
You have also have been given ample opportunity to prove this and have again refused.
Toxic dumps have been a reality of Bedouin life for over a decade and no attempts have been made to change that.
'Warm words' don't count.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 05:54 AM

Egypt acted against the tunnels because the attack came from Gaza.

The Israeli airstrike was justified and no significant nation or UN has "condemned" them.

The weapons were destined for Hezbollah who are now murdering Syrian people for Assad.

To demonize Israel you have to rake up an event from over thirty years ago that was committed by Lebanese Arabs on Palestinian Arabs, and falsely claim the Bedouin in Israel are persecuted.

Israel seeks to move Bedouin away from illegal settlements near a toxic dump.
Ordinary dumps are harmless when properly run, as Israel's are.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 04:05 AM

You have had reports from Reuters, from Amnesty International, From Jews for Justice, From Rabbis For Justice, from Journals and newspapers all over the world, from the UN and from accredited surveys set up by the UN and Amnesty.
You have had scientific evidence of the nature and dangers of this site and other sites occupied by Bedouins.
You have had evidence arising from surveys carried out on the "Apartheid" nature of Israeli society, both from inside and outside Israel.
You have totally ignored every point of evidence of toxicity on this site.
You have deliberately refused to provivide any evidence whatever to back up your invented claims and you obviously intend continue to do so.
Just as the Israelis continue to carry out an ethnic cleansing policy in order to expand their state, you continue to lie and distort in order to support human rights abuses, mass murder and other war crimes
I would say by your openly racist behaviour and totally transparent dishonesty you have managed to shit all over your own arguments.
Checkmate.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 03:30 AM

the Israelis have been using toxic chemical sprays to kill Bedouin livestock

Really?
Any report from Reuters, Al Jazeera, CNN, BBC, or just from sad nutters' blogs?

(500!)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 03:02 AM

You are not a spokesman for the State of Israel, merely an apologist for their war crimes and atrocities If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case


It is true I am not a spokesman.
Happy to clear that one up Jim.

Some people accuse Israel of "war crimes and atrocities."
Israel refutes this.
All the cases you have raised are highly contentious.
You have not produced a single, unequivocal crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 02:54 AM

Jim.
http://www.ace-ej.org/bedouins_fight_serious_environmental_injustices

This is some bloke's blog.
Is that all that 24 hours of googling could produce?

there is no such thing as an "ordinary" non-toxic rubbish dump in the close proximity of human habitation

Yes there is.
There are many huge ones around Hertford with housing all around them and actually on top of the older ones.

I gave you the information that the rubbish is sealed from the ground and leachate and methane extracted.
That is how it is done here too.
There are no envirenmental issues.

The Israeli government is doing its best to close down the illegal settlements around the actual toxic waste dump.
See your own link!

New recognised settlements have piped water, electricity and sanitation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 02:42 AM

I am putting this up separately to give you the opportunity to settle your claims of "non toxicity" once and for all.
The toxicity (or non toxicity) of the site proposed for the forcible move of several thousand Bedouins is an act of State fascism in its own right before you take into consideration the nature of the site.
FACTS ABOUT TOXICITY BOTH FROM SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION AND REFERING TO THIS SITE IN PARTICULAR (including some facts from the Israelis themselves)
The gasses given off from this site will remain in the ground for years. possibly decades after its closure - If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
Their coming into contact with water produces a toxic mixture - any water in the area will already have been poisoned If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
The usual method of obtaining water in areas like this is to dig wells, any water for human consumption in this area will have long been polluted and toxic. - If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
Any water in this area for grazing livestock will will be polluted by toxins - If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
There have been no statements as to how the Israeli regime intends to irrigate this site - If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
If it flows overland it will become toxic - If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
The Israelis do not intend to embark on expensive projects to make this land habitable other than by bulldozing the existing rubbish into the ground otherwise they would have announced it when their intentions were made known, as a public relations exercise, if nothing else - If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
Children playing in this area will be exposed to the risk of coming into contact with rotting rubbish which could effect their health and even kill themIf this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
Methane given off by this site, when coming into contact with certain other gasses, including those used for cooking or heating, become toxic and also run the risk of becoming explosive or highly inflammable - this has been stated by the Israeli health officials If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
Any one of these facts would make the site liable to the description "toxic" - there is no such thing as an "ordinary" non-toxic rubbish dump in the close proximity of human habitationIf this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
Overall fact; had it not been for the public outcry and the threat of a war crimes charge, the Bedouins would have long ago been forcibly settled onto this site, or one similarly valueless and dangerous If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
Forcibly removing Bedouins in order to make homes for Jewish settlers is an act of extreme racism If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
Any act of forcibly removing a people from land they have occupied for centuries is one of state fascism If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
It was you who first introduced the Bedouins into this discussion to show the egalitarian nature of the State of Israel - bet you're sorry now that you did If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
If you are going to continue defending this act of ethnic cleansing, racism and state fascism, please provide links to genuine information and not just your own inventions.
You are not a spokesman for the State of Israel, merely an apologist for their war crimes and atrocities If this is not true, provide some documented facts showing it is not the case
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 01:29 AM

You have now appointed yourself the spokesman for Israeli atrocities and you are still not providing any links to your statements - you are m aking all this up as you go along - LINKS TO YOUR CLAIMS PLEASE
These sites (there are several of them) effected by toxic waste have been in existence for years, the government has been aware of them, the effects of those forced to live there are suffering bad health, even dying from their effects - this is little short of the ethnic cleansing of those standing in the way of Israeli expansion.

"As a result, the Bedouin community is plagued with extremely high rates of acute and chronic conditions such as asthma, cancer, lung diseases, sleep apnea, miscarriages, and an infant mortality rate three times higher than the national average. Additionally, Bedouins are routinely denied access to basic resources such as water access, municipal garbage removal, or health care. Despite approximately 72,000 Bedouins living alongside high voltage power lines, few have access to electricity."
http://www.ace-ej.org/bedouins_fight_serious_environmental_injustices

Far from your own invention of their improving this situation, the Israelis have been using toxic chemical sprays to kill Bedouin livestock and destroy their crops - and killing off and destroying their health the people living in the vicinity in the process, you have had this information over and over again and you still ignore it - what kind of low-life defends behaviour like that?.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 08:26 AM

Jim, the settlements around that toxic dump are illegal and Israel is trying to move them away.
As the responsible Israeli government official said, in one of your own links, "No one should be living next to a toxic dump," Regev says. "The solution is that all Bedouin[s] live in recognised communities where they receive the services they deserve."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 08:12 AM

A bit more
Jim Carroll
"POWERLESS" BEDOUIN VILLAGE STILL SEEKING HEALTH CARE
BY AM JOHAL
"Israel's Negev desert is facing a public health crisis. After much public pressure, in June
2004, the Ministry of Health revealed the findings of its epidemiological study - there are
65% higher rates of cancer and mortality for those living within a 20km radius of the
Ramat Hovav Industrial Zone. Some 350,000 people live within this danger zone,
including the residents of Beer Sheva. The Bedouin village of Wadi el Na'am is located
500m from Ramat Hovav - which encompasses 19 hazardous agro and petro-chemical
factories, and a toxic waste incinerator. The site has ironically won state awards for
environmental stewardship for four years in a row. In all the paradoxes of Israel, this one
defies expectations. A few years ago, even the IDF vacated the Manos military camp, 2
km to the north of the factories after soldiers became ill, and complained about a fierce
stench from the site."
http://www.caiaweb.org/old-site/files/johal-negev.pdf

"TUESDAY, AUGUST 10, 2010
Uprooting Weeds, by Devorah Brous
On Thursday, March 11th, 2004, Bedouin fields were sprayed with Monsanto's toxic Roundup for the seventh time in 2 years as the Israel Lands Authority sent a fleet of planes to 'redeem' land near Mitzpe Ramon, in Abde and in Qatamat, unrecognized villages in the Southern Negev. In such cases, the State has rendered Bedouin cultivation of unused desert expanse, illegal. Twice in February, fruit trees (olives and dates) were uprooted from Bedouin villages, each time some 50 trees. Below please find an article analyzing this policy of uprooting, and destroying food crops. Bustan is collecting any information on crop-spraying operations around the world as a tactic to gain state control over lands."
http://bedouinjewishjustice.blogspot.ie/2010/08/uprooting-weeds-by-devorah-brous-march.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM

So, Don,

I have shown that as of MAY 2011 the border to Egypt was open- If you wish to continue in your claims of "Not everybody there was Hamas because they could not have gotten over the border" YOU need to show when it was re-closed and why.

Otherwise, your argument has no validity, except to a bigot who does not accept factual evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 07:49 AM

Sorry, Don, You are incorrect.

"Last August, when the alleged Palestinian attack happened, the only way out of Gaza was through one of the tunnels.

The Egyptians have reported that SOME of the militants came through the tunnels, so it follows that the rest must have come from somewhere other than Gaza.

At least some of them cannot have been Hamas or Palestinian since Israel has the rest of the border blockaded."





And my earlier post was also from 2011....





"Egypt Gaza Border Reopened Permanently

IBRAHIM BARZAK   05/28/11 05:14 PM ET   
Egypt , Gaza , Israeli-Palestinian Conflict , Rafah Border Crossing , Egypt Gaza Border , Rafah , World News

RAFAH, Gaza Strip — Egypt lifted a 4-year-old blockade of the Gaza Strip on Saturday, greatly easing travel restrictions on the 1.5 million residents of the Palestinian territory in a move that bolstered the Hamas government while dealing a setback to Israel's attempts to isolate the militant group.

The sense of relief was palpable as buses piled high with luggage crossed the Rafah border terminal and hundreds of people traveled abroad for overdue medical appointments, business dealings and family affairs. In Israel, fears were heightened that militants and weapons will soon pour into the territory."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/28/egypt-gaza-border-reopened_n_868390.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 07:07 AM

PS If you are going to continue to claim that the Israelis intend to carry out any (MAJOR) work to make this site habitable to a people they have deliberately used toxic chemicals on in the past, please provide that information - you have not done so so far
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 06:53 AM

"Jim, whatever your obscure Egyptian magazine says....."
"Egypt Independent is the sister English-language publication of Al-Masry Al-Youm daily, the country's flagship independent paper"
You have been given the thinking of the Egyptian MILITARY government's thinking on this matter – economics and appeasement.
"You cling to a discredited lie."
Discredited by whom – you have produced nothing on the matter other than your own denial
Facts – both generally scientifically recognised and directly pertaining to this site:
It has been described as subject to war crimes charges to forcibly move thousands of people there – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
The land will remain poisoned for years, even decades after it ceases its present use (official report) – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
The gasses on the site will become toxic when brought into contact with water (official analysis) – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
Anybody occupying this land will almost certainly have to dig wells to provide water, this will be water from polluted land which will immediately become toxic - – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
The Bedouins are herders who feed themselves and make a living from animals – these animals will be grazed and watered from polluted land – the water will be toxic as it will have to be drawn from polluted land - – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
Even in the unlikely case of the Israelis supplying water, it will be flowing over polluted lands, therefore it will be toxic – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
The Israelis have put forward no plans for preparing tha land for occupation – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
Children playing in the area will be in the proximity of polluted land and be likely to be poisoned from rotting rubbish, even if it is buried – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
Occupants of the area will be using forms of heating and cooking which, when coming into contact with methane, are likely to have a toxic effect and are also (according to the Israeli health department) are subject to explosion and fire – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
THEREFORE THIS SITE BY ITS VERY NATURE, IS TOXIC – if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
"The only poisoned, toxic land is the industrial site that Israel wants to move the Bedouin AWAY from."
This site is one of many in the vicinity of toxic materials. The Israelis have known about them for years, in some cases decades, and still have done nothing to change that situation – on the contrary, they have deliberately sprayed Bedoin sites with toxic chemicals in order to clear them for settlements - if this is not the case, show us otherwise.
You still fail to provide one single scrap of documented evidence – LINKS PLEASE