BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 05:17 AM

Sorry - missed the opening bit.
Jim Carroll
"This week sees the 30th anniversary of the single-worst atrocity during the more than six decades of the Arab-Israeli conflict."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 05:15 AM

No comment needed
Jim Carroll

US GAVE ISRAEL GREEN LIGHT FOR SABRA, SHATILA GENOCIDE
Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:28PM GMT
Finian Cunningham
Yet not a single person has ever been prosecuted for the slaughter at Sabra and Shatila. As part of Lebanon's civil war settlement in 1990 an amnesty was afforded to all those who had participated in this and other atrocities. Some would later clear their consciences by confessing publicly to media and tribunals to the most barbaric acts of cruelty one can imagine."
This week sees the 30th anniversary of the single-worst atrocity during the more than six decades of the Arab-Israeli conflict.
For three days, between 15 and 18 September, up to 3,500 men, women and children were butchered in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps of West Beirut. Their mutilated, mangled bodies bulldozed into mass graves.
For three days, Lebanese Christian Phalangists under the command of intelligence chief Elie Hobeika returned over and over again to go on an orgy of systematic slaughter in the camps. The massacre would not have been possible only for the collaboration of Israel's Defence Forces, which had months earlier invaded Lebanon and taken control of the camps.
Sabra and Shatila were populated by destitute families of Palestinians that had fled from the pogroms in 1948 carried out by Israel's Haganah death squads. The refugee numbers also burgeoned with Lebanese Shia displaced from the civil war in their country that erupted in 1975.
The United Nations' General Assembly later condemned what happened at Sabra and Shatila as "an act of genocide". A UN commission of inquiry, headed up by Irish statesman Sean MacBride, concluded that the Israeli authorities and their forces were involved and responsible for the deaths. The then head of the IDF was Ariel Sharon who later would hold four ministerial posts before becoming Israeli Prime Minister from 2001 to 2006.
Yet not a single person has ever been prosecuted for the slaughter at Sabra and Shatila. As part of Lebanon's civil war settlement in 1990 an amnesty was afforded to all those who had participated in this and other atrocities. Some would later clear their consciences by confessing publicly to media and tribunals to the most barbaric acts of cruelty one can imagine.
Former Phalangist commander Hobeika was due to give evidence in a Belgian court, which had claimed international jurisdiction for crimes against humanity to prosecute the case. Ahead of the hearings, Hobeika had publicly stated that he was going to testify against Aerial Sharon to implicate him in the operation of the massacre. He never made it to the courtroom. He was assassinated in a car bomb in Beirut in January 2002. At least two other former Lebanese Phalangists who were similarly due to testify were also mysteriously killed. Eventually, the Belgian court was forced to drop the trial under pressure from Washington. Many believe that Israeli agents carried out the assassinations to spare Sharon international ignominy.
Despite the lack of criminal convictions, there is not a shadow of doubt that Israel has blood on its hands over Sabra and Shatila. The Lebanese militia recruited to do the dirty work were assembled by the Israeli Defence Forces at Beirut International Airport days before the mayhem was unleashed. The 1,5000 or so killers were armed by the Israelis and driven in IDF vehicles to the camps. The Israeli army had surrounded the site with armed guards and checkpoints to ensure that no-one escaped when the slaughter began. Indeed, some reports at the time claimed that Israeli soldiers ordered families trying to flee from the carnage back into camps to face their certain deaths.
Overlooking Sabra and Shatila was the seven-storey Kuwaiti embassy, which had been commandeered by the Israelis. From top floors, the Israeli and Phalangist commanders would have had a clear, uninterrupted view of the unfolding sickening spectacle. Not least because the Israeli forces would fire night flares over the camps as the death squads - fuelled with cocaine and alcohol courtesy of Israel - proceeded from hovel to hovel killing the inhabitants.
One Dutch nurse working in the camps for an international aid organization said that the area was as bright as day because of the constant barrage of flares.
From their vantage point, the Israeli commanders would have witnessed the most grotesque bloodletting carried out by their Phalangist fanatics against women and children. Yet the Israeli commanders did nothing to stop the slaughter. Why should they have? It was all evidently executed according to plan. Later, the Israelis claimed that they had instructed the militias to not injure civilians and to behave with discipline. That self-defence is beneath contempt.
The respected American human rights lawyer Franklin Lamb, based in Beirut, recalled what his late wife witnessed in the hours following the aftermath of Sabra and Shatila. Janet Lee Stevens was in Beirut working as a young journalist and was one of the first internationals on the scene. Here is just an excerpt of what she witnessed:
"I saw dead women in their houses with their skirts up to their waists and their legs spread apart; dozens of young men shot after being lined up against an alley wall; children with their throats slit, a pregnant woman with her stomach chopped open, her eyes still wide open, her blackened face silently screaming in horror; countless babies and toddlers who had been stabbed or ripped apart and who had been thrown into garbage piles."
This week, only days before the 30th anniversary of Sabra and Shatila, Israel's current Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was afforded the customary privilege of articulating his noxious views to the American people on various nationwide Sunday television channels. To be sure, Sabra and Shatila were not mentioned. No, instead Netanyahu was spilling his bile about Iran's alleged nuclear ambitions. He also called the worldwide Muslim demonstrations outside American embassies over the latest anti-Islam video "mob rule" and he compared the Iranian government to these "fanatics". In a leap of twisted logic, Netanyahu said: "You can't let such people have atomic bombs."
Such is the twisted world we live in. When will the voices of Sabra and Shatila be given such prominence on Western mainstream media to explain to the world the horror and injustice that they suffered? Maybe if such voices were somehow heard and understood, the American people would stop their governments bankrolling the fanatical, criminal state of Israel that has, and continues to, instigate so much conflict in the world. Washington gives Israel a license for genocide. The American people need to stop that.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/19/262446/israels-american-license-for-genocide/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 04:00 AM

They have shown themselves well capable of the slaughter of thousands of unarmed men women and children

You are blinded by hatred.
You will believe anything.

You do not need light to carry out indiscriminate murder in a crowded camp.
You do need it to identify military positions among the civilians.
Did you not know there were fighters based in the camps?
You do know that it is a built up urban area, not families huddled in tents?
No tents.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 03:41 AM

I see Brucie is not going to respond to this atrocity and our other resident fanatic is going to continue lying about Israel's facilitating it and standing by while 3,000 civilians were slaughtered.
So here's the situation.
"It would bring a new holocaust for the 6 million Jews of Israel,"
The massacre is evidence, if evidence were needed, that it is the Israelis who would carry out the mass slaughter of civilians - they have already done so - that is why it is relevant to this discussion.
They have shown themselves well capable of the slaughter of thousands of unarmed men women and children.
Even as far back as the departure of the British, they were slaughtering unarmed villagers by hurling grenades into occupied houses.
They have deliberately targeted hospitals and schools, using the excuse that resistance fighters were sheltering there.
They have bombed occupied apartment blocks using the excuse that resistance fighters were living there.
They have used chemical weapons on civilians (RECENTLY ADDING SKUNK TO THEIR CHEMICAL ARMOURY).
They have destroyed whole streets of civilian homes, leaving streetfuls of families homeless.
They have attempted to starve and deprive an entire community into submission by banning or delaying essential goods, including medicines.
They have murdered unarmed aid workers who have attempted to break their blockade.
And the beat goes on, and on, and on......
In all of this, they have been protected by the US and her nodding-dog supporters with UN vetos that pale those of Russia and China in support of Syria, into insignificance.
Whatever we might think of Hezboallah, they would be totally insane to surrender to these monsters.
"You need light to identify enemy positions."
Ah - at last it's been said - unarmed refugees are to be considered "enemies" and worthy of slaughter - that's cleared that up.
This was not a fight - it was the cold-blooded massacre of unarmed men, women and children - no less.
At the very least, the Israelis supplied the transport for the actual killers, provided illumination for the killers to carry out the work, Gave them access to the camps and stood by and watched as the atrocities took place.
Destroyed the bulk of the evidence after the slaughter.
They later put themselves on trial and found themselves not guilty!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 03:12 AM

demolishing whole villages with helicopter gunships (once the bulldozers have started things off)

Try not to be so gullible Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:40 PM

Interesting Hardtalk on the Beeb news channel tonight, in which Stephen Sackur interrogated Khaled Meshaal for half an hour (it will be on iPlayer soon). There was much talk of getting Israel to shift its position, an open appeal to Obama, regret at the rift between Hamas and Syria (you could hardly disagree) and the potential rift with Iran, and plenty of hopeful-sounding talk of reconciliation with Fatah. What was absent was any talk of wiping Israel off the map.

Yeah, yeah, I know. But don't spout off about it until you've watched it, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:15 PM

Congratulations for penning the most ludicrous, revisionist, dishonest post I've seen in years, Keith. You must take us all for idiots. The facts of the refugee camp massacres are out there, have been for almost 30 years and have been acknowledged even by Israel. Jesus, man, you're even in danger of embarrassing Bibi here. As for Israel not targeting civilians, well that's bloody rich that is. Civilians have been by far the biggest casualties of every one of Israel's aggressions over the decades. They don't give a damn about civilians, that much is clear. They get round it every single time by claiming that civilians are deliberately put in harm's way. A routine, demonising claim in all wars by all western powers. Never with evidence in support, of course. You'll be telling me next that demolishing whole villages with helicopter gunships (once the bulldozers have started things off) is not targeting civilians. You'd be a bloody good laugh, Keith, if you weren't so tragic.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 05:55 PM

Whatever.

Accuracy? Whatever.

Fact? Whatever.

The spirit that made Amerika great.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 04:57 PM

Should we hold all countries to the exact/ame standard of direct and indirect accountability, and responsibility, for civilian killings/massacres (whether on a battlefield, or otherwise)?

If so, I suspect there are a big list of countries and citizens (western and otherwise) that have a lot of historic explaining to do and responsibility to take.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 03:36 PM

Don, I'm not such an egotist to think what I think means shit to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 03:23 PM

Israel when it carries out the very actions you so loudly condemn when carried out by Hezbollah or Hamas
Not true Steve.
Israel does not target civilians or attack indiscriminately as both Hamas and Hezbollah do.

Israel had responsibility because the Israeli army was present at the camps, illuminated the camps so that the killers could see what they were doing and then stood by while the horror was perpetrated.

You need light to identify enemy positions.
You do not need light to carry out indiscriminate murder in a crowded camp.
The Israelis stepped in and stopped the massacre.

And there are plenty of witness accounts that the killers were virtually goaded by Israelis to do what they did.
No, there are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 03:16 PM

Fair point Steve.
Correction.
To recap, a vicious, evil regime that has been in a legal state of war with Israel for decades, tried to supply powerful weapons to internationally recognised terrorists, in violation of treaties and UN.

Israel was able to prevent the violation, with no collateral damage and little loss of life, and UN appears to be very happy with it.

So in this subject the Israel haters have no case at all.
No wonder they are frantic to change the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 02:34 PM

To recap, a vicious, evil regime tried to supply powerful weapons to internationally recognised terrorists, in violation of treaties and UN.

Israel was able to prevent the violation, with no collateral damage and little loss of life, and UN appears to be very happy with it.

So in this subject the Israel haters have no case at all.
No wonder they are frantic to change the subject.

The fact remains that Israel attacked a target in someone else's sovereign territory, a country which is not currently engaged in active hostilities with Israel. Yes, it goes on, but kindly do not continue to assert some moral superiority for Israel when it carries out the very actions you so loudly condemn when carried out by Hezbollah or Hamas. I bet you just love those yankee drone attacks in Pakistan too, don't you, Keith? Indiscriminate killing again and all that?

You can claim Israel had some responsibility as the occupying power, but the 1982 massacres were committed by local militia.

Oh no you don't! Israel had responsibility because the Israeli army was present at the camps, illuminated the camps so that the killers could see what they were doing and then stood by while the horror was perpetrated. And there are plenty of witness accounts that the killers were virtually goaded by Israelis to do what they did. Control of the situation was firmly in Israel's hands. Bang to rights, as they say.

Four years later there were more massacres when the Palestinian refugee camps were besieged by the Shi'ite Amal.
There was not an Israeli within 100 miles.

And now who's frantically trying to change the subject?

Jim has raised the issue over and over when he is losing an argument, but the facts are against him and over 30 years later there is nothing new to add.

There's always something to add when someone is trying to rewrite history, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 02:30 PM

More Syrians have been killed in the last year BY SYRIA than the total number of Palestinians killed by Israel in the last 65 years.

More IRANIANS were killed by the IRANIAN government in the year after removing the Shah than had been killed by the Shah during his entire reign.




I don't think that the problem in that region is Israel- If we want to REDUCE the death toll, we would have to have Israel control the entire region. They are killing themselves far more than Israel is killing them. Would Jim like to discuss the number of Palestinans killed by Palestinians when Hamas took control of Gaza, in comparison to the number killed by Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 02:15 PM

To recap, a vicious, evil regime tried to supply powerful weapons to internationally recognised terrorists, in violation of treaties and UN.

Israel was able to prevent the violation, with no collateral damage and little loss of life, and UN appears to be very happy with it.

So in this subject the Israel haters have no case at all.
No wonder they are frantic to change the subject.

You can claim Israel had some responsibility as the occupying power, but the 1982 massacres were committed by local militia.
Four years later there were more massacres when the Palestinian refugee camps were besieged by the Shi'ite Amal.
There was not an Israeli within 100 miles.

Jim has raised the issue over and over when he is losing an argument, but the facts are against him and over 30 years later there is nothing new to add.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 02:00 PM

""Another pointless argument.It's all been said.""

Exactly the response to gladden Israeli hearts as they go on about their daily business of bullying their neighbours, secure behind Uncle Sam's coat tails.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 11:27 AM

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - A research center that Syria said had been hit by an Israeli air strike last week appears to have remained unscathed in the attack, according to satellite images broadcast by Israeli television on Wednesday.
Diplomats, Syrian rebels and security sources said Israeli jets had bombed a convoy near the Lebanese border last week, apparently hitting weapons destined for the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah, which fought a 34-day war with Israel in 2006.
Syria denied the assertions, saying the target was the Jamraya military research complex on the northwestern fringes of Damascus, 8 miles from the border.
Some of the diplomats and security sources said the apparently contradictory accounts might refer to the same incident, given Jamraya's proximity to the border.
Israel's Channel 2 News broadcast what it said were satellite images of the complex, taken eight months before the attack and a few days after it.
The latter showed an apparently unscathed building, which Channel 2 said was the research center, next to a scorched and blackened road and parking lot, where it said the arms convoy was hit.
Channel 2 said the second image had been taken by DigitalGlobe, a public company based in the United States. A spokesperson for DigitalGlobe contacted by Reuters confirmed the authenticity of the image and said it had been taken on February 4.
Syrian television had broadcast what it said was footage from the Jamraya base showing extensive damage to buildings and several heavy military vehicles that appeared capable of carrying missiles.
At least one vehicle, with light desert khaki markings, was equipped with what looked like a satellite dish.
Several burnt-out cars and lorries, including one with a large hole smashed through the roof of the driver's cabin, could also be seen in the footage, as well as the badly damaged interior of an office.
Israel has maintained official silence last week's raid, but on Sunday Defence Minister Ehud Barak appeared to acknowledge that Israel had carried out the strike.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 11:22 AM

Another pointless argument.It's all been said.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 11:07 AM

""The rockets were indiscriminate.""

They were also seven years ago, since when there are no records of any direct attacks by them on Israel, just five incidents of which only one is reasonably (though by no means certainly) attributable to Hezbollah.

""The conflict began when militants from the group Hezbollah fired rockets at Israeli border towns as a diversion for an anti-tank missile attack on two armored Humvees patrolling the Israeli side of the border fence. The ambush left three soldiers dead. Two additional soldiers, believed to have been killed outright or mortally wounded, were taken by Hezbollah to Lebanon. Five more were killed in a failed rescue attempt. Israel responded with airstrikes and artillery fire on targets in Lebanon that damaged Lebanese civilian infrastructure, including Beirut's Rafic Hariri International Airport, an air and naval blockade, and a ground invasion of southern Lebanon. Hezbollah then launched more rockets into northern Israel and engaged the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) in guerrilla warfare from hardened positions.

The conflict is believed to have killed at least 1,191–1,300 Lebanese people, and 165 Israelis. It severely damaged Lebanese civil infrastructure, and displaced approximately one million Lebanese and 300,000–500,000 Israelis. After the ceasefire, some parts of southern Lebanon remained uninhabitable due to Israeli unexploded cluster bomblets.

On 11 August 2006, the United Nations Security Council unanimously approved UN Resolution 1701 in an effort to end the hostilities. The resolution, which was approved by both Lebanese and Israeli governments the following days, called for disarmament of Hezbollah, for withdrawal of Israel from Lebanon, and for the deployment of Lebanese soldiers and an enlarged United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) in the south. UNIFIL was given an expanded mandate, including the ability to use force to ensure that their area of operations wasn't used for hostile activities, and to resist attempts by force to prevent them from discharging their duties. The Lebanese army began deploying in southern Lebanon on 17 August 2006. The blockade was lifted on 8 September 2006. On 1 October 2006, most Israeli troops withdrew from Lebanon, though the last of the troops continued to occupy the border-straddling village of Ghajar. In the time since the enactment of UNSCR 1701 both the Lebanese government and UNIFIL have stated that they will not disarm Hezbollah.""

It certainly doesn't sound as one sided as you would have us believe Keith.

The attempt to obtain Israeli prisoners to exchange for Lebanese captured by Israel mirrors exactly what Israel did on more than one occasion, notably in Gaza.

The response was, predictably, off the Richter Scale for violence and the Israelis seem to have been every bit as indiscriminate as Hezbollah, with airstrikes and artillery fire on targets in Lebanon that damaged Lebanese civilian infrastructure, including Beirut's Rafic Hariri International Airport, and after the ceasefire, some parts of southern Lebanon rendered uninhabitable due to Israeli unexploded cluster bomblets.

Call it what you like, it's still out and out warfare involving once again Israel recording 1191 - 1300 Lebanese kills for the loss of 165, between seven and eight to one.

Now, the big question!

If Hezbollah are the threat that you say they are (in the present, rather than seven years ago), why do you suppose that UNIFIL has declined to carry out the UNSCR 1701 instruction to disarm them, and why do the Lebanese government concur?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 10:36 AM

The destruction of a refugee camp full of innocent civilians is about as indiscriminate as it gets, Keith. And stop trying to rewrite history. Even Israel knows that it was responsible for what happened. The IDF lit up the area with flares to assist the killers and stood back while they got on with it. Ariel Sharon had to accept personal responsibility and had to resign (that's what happens to Israeli war criminals, I guess, and they can always come back later). As for "Arab factions" bulldozing Gaza houses and destroying them with helicopter gunships, well that's news to me, Keith. Gosh, Hamas were better equipped than I thought! And the bomblets left in southern Lebanon were American-made and were dropped there by the IDF. "Arab factions", eh? Are you feeling OK, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 10:21 AM

the indiscriminate (yes, Keith) slaughter of civilians.

You need to justify that outrageous accusation.

The massacres you refer to were committed by Lebanese militia, and later ones by Arab factions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 09:18 AM

"Why do you feel that this thread should be hijacked for your own purposes? "
Because you and your buddies raised the question of self defence - why else?
Terror tactics have been a part of this conflict since before the state was established, by all sides - it is one of the unfortunate aspects of war; but the deliberate massacre of 3,000 human beings for no other reason than they felt like it (it would appear) takes barbarity to a new level.
Yes, Shatila/Sabra has been discussed before, but never explained by apologists for Israeli terrorism, only denied - just as the Holocaust was and still is denied by anti-Semites - Tweedledum - Tweedledee.
Is is not a hijacking - it is an essential part of understanding the Israeli regime's mindset.
I find your apparent insistence that whatever Israel can be justified in the name of "self defence" somewhat sickening in the light of their behaviour towards civilians - don't suppose for one minute that you agree!
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 09:08 AM

Whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 09:06 AM

Actually, what Andy Jackson said was:

"But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 09:06 AM

Well, steve, if being "an integral part of the government" is the requirement for NOT being a terrorist, Israel, BEING the government, cannot be terrorist, either.

Tiresome comment. Like-with-like would be to compare Hezbollah with an Israeli party, Likud, let's say, which equally don't work too well. Hezbollah started its life as a resistance movement, and, in many respects, that's what it still is. There is not a movement in Israel to compare. Israel doesn't need a clandestinely-armed resistance movement. It has one of the biggest armies on earth, bankrolled openly by Washington. How horrid of Hezbollah to be sneaky enough to have to rely on smuggled weapons! That aside, you appear to be unconsciously condoning any act by a country just because "it's too big to be a terrorist". To you, it appears, being big excuses from all kinds of horrid behaviour. Let's not forget the repeated incursions into neighbouring sovereign territories that have resulted in the indiscriminate (yes, Keith) slaughter of civilians. Thousands killed in those two refugee camps. Refugee camps. Shall I say it again? Hundreds of maimed children thanks to cluster bomblets left all over the Lebanon countryside. Children. Shall I say it again? Families and their homes destroyed by bulldozers and helicopter gunships in Gaza. Families. Shall I say it again? I don't care whether you call those terrorist acts or not. Ask those families, refugees and kids whether they had their lives destroyed by terrorists and they'll tell you they don't give a damn. It's a bloody word, that's all. Let's talk right or wrong instead. OK. Now that's sorted, lets discuss whether those IDF actions were right or wrong (and yes, I do know what happened in Sabra and Shatila).

Unless you demand different standards for Jews...

If that is a puerile attempt to goad me into antisemitic remarks, it won't work. You need to sort yourself out, mate. Sounds to me like you're the racist round here.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM

None of the above- have you stopped beating your wife, yet?

I stated ONLY that if Steve is right, and Hezboallah is NOT a terrorist organization because of its governmental functions, than Israel cannot be terrorist: YOU CANNOT apply one set of rules to one side, and a different set to the other side.


As for those massacres. I think that there have been threads devoted to them- Why do you feel that this thread should be hijacked for your own purposes?

Will you allow the discussion f the removal of all Jews from the Arab lands in 1948? What about the massacres in the 1920"s? How about the fact the Arab Palestinian state was formed in 1923, and given lag proportional to the Arab population, where Jews were not allowed to settle or own property? HOW MUCH OF MANDATE PALESTINE should Moslims be given?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:38 AM

Just in case you've forgotten my question - how can the massacre of 3,000 non-combatant refugees possibly be described as "self-defence"?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM

"Fine, Jim. Then Steve is incorrect about Hezboallah,"
Sorry - don't follow; are you saying the massacre of 3,000 was fine, or were you really avoiding my question on Shatila and Sabra.?
Are you suggesting that Israel hasn't done the things I have described or are you saying tit-for-tat terrorism is acceptable?
Mine was a rhetorical question anyway - I don't expect honesty and rationale from fanatics who crouch behind 300,000,000 murder victims to defend state terrorism.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:17 AM

Don, they were not acts of war. They were war crimes.Terrorism.
The rockets were indiscriminate.

I have shown you that it is not just us saying they are terrorists.
It is because they are terrorists that UN imposed the weapons ban, and despite the thread title, they have expressed no reservation at all about Israel's action.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:12 AM

Fine, Jim. Then Steve is incorrect about Hezboallah, as well. You can pick one or the other, not both.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:03 AM

"SO STOP SAYING THEY ARE TERRORISTS"
If they carry out assassinations, kidnappings, guerrilla attacks on other states, attempts to starve, facilitate the massacre of thousands of refugees of refugees - they can reasonably referred to as "a terrorist state".
Israel has done all that and more in spades, so the cap seems to fit perfectly.
Don't suppose you'd like to answer my question on Sabra/Shatila and how it merits "self defence" - or not maybe?
"Jim, I will do as you ask and ignore you."
Wasn't talking to you Keith - just generally commenting on your 'Strangelove like' utterances and your deep insults aimed at members of this forum.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:03 AM

""During the Second Lebanon War of summer 2006, Hezbollah achieved for the first time, strategic terror effects with tactical rockets - with thousands of WW2 era Katyusha rockets it rained down on northern Israel.""

I think the clue is in the name, don't you?

Second Lebanon War.

If they are part of the Lebanese government, a war removes the terrorist tag. What were the Israelis doing to Lebanon at the time?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 08:01 AM

The United States, the Netherlands, Bahrain, Egypt, the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada and Israel classify Hezbollah as a terrorist organization,

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM

"Whether the Islamic Jihad Organization (IJO) was a nom de guerre used by Hezbollah or a separate organization, is disputed.
Hezbollah leaders reportedly admitted their involvement in IJO's attacks and the nominal nature of "Islamic Jihad" – that it was merely a "telephone organization,"[37][38] and[39] whose name was "used by those involved to disguise their true identity."[40][41][42][43][44]
A 2003 decision by an American court found IJO was the name used by Hezbollah for its attacks in Lebanon, and parts of the Middle East, and Europe.[45] Hezbollah also used another name, Islamic Resistance, or al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya, for its attacks against Israel.[46]
The names Islamic Jihad Organization, Organization of the Oppressed on Earth and the Revolutionary Justice Organization are considered to be synonymous with Hezbollah by the United States,[47] Israel,[48] and Canada.[49]"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM

""They engage in indiscriminate acts of terror.
That makes them terrorists.""

Not according to my earlier post which shows maybe (only maybe) one act of terrorism in nineteen years, and that one five years ago.

I don't think they are too good at this.....What d'you reckon?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:55 AM

"During the Second Lebanon War of summer 2006, Hezbollah achieved for the first time, strategic terror effects with tactical rockets - with thousands of WW2 era Katyusha rockets it rained down on northern Israel. The terrorist army had stockpiled over 14,000 short- and medium-range rockets in calibers between 100mm to 302mm weapons. Originally designed as area-suppression and psychological weapons to support tactical assaults, these rockets gained a new interest as terror weapons with strategic resonance, reaching their climax with hundreds fired daily on targets in northern Israel for nearly five weeks. The larger caliber rockets, mainly Syrian origin 302mm (designated Khaibar-1 by Hezbollah) and Iranian Fajr-3, were used to strike deep into Israel"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:54 AM

That was 100!

Before you ask Keith, the source of that information was ABC News and Associated Press.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:53 AM

Well, steve, if being "an integral part of the government" is the requirement for NOT being a terrorist, Israel, BEING the government, cannot be terrorist, either. They provide all that you have listed, and more.- SO STOP SAYING THEY ARE TERRORISTS

Unless you demand different standards for Jews...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:52 AM

They engage in indiscriminate acts of terror.
That makes them terrorists.
They may do some non-terror related activities, and they might be nice to their mums, but they are still terrorists.

Jim, I will do as you ask and ignore you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:50 AM

Israel and others countries have accused Iran and Hezbollah of carrying out attacks on Israeli and Jewish targets around the world. Hezbollah has denied involvement in some and not commented on others.

Since 1994 attacks alleged to have been by hezbollah:-

""2008: Azerbaijan officials say they foiled a plot to explode car bombs near the Israeli Embassy in retaliation for the killing in Syria of a top commander in Hezbollah. Two Lebanese men are later convicted in Baku for the bombing attempt.""

Two convicted Lebanese suggests that this is a Hezbollah action.

""Nov. 2011 and Jan. 2012: A Swedish-Lebanese man is accused of planning attacks on Israeli citizens in Cyprus in a case that Israel has said bears similarities to the Bulgaria attack. Israel says the accused was a Hezbollah operative who used the same method as the Burgas suicide bomber, but offered no evidence.""

He was "accused of planning". "Israel said he was a Hezbollah operative, but offered no evidence." Extremely shaky claim with little, if any, credibility.

""February 13, 2012: A bomb attached to an Israeli diplomat's car in India blows up, injuring four people, while a similar bomb is found in Georgia and safely defused. The attacks appear to mirror recent killings of Iranian nuclear scientists that Iran blamed on Israel.""

Where is the Hezbollah connection?

""February 14, 2012: In Thailand, an Iranian man carrying grenades blows off his own legs and wounds four civilians after an earlier blast shook his house in Bangkok. Thai police detain three men they say were planning to attack Israeli diplomats.""

Again, where is the Hezbollah connection?

""July 18, 2012: A bomb explodes in a tourist bus in the Bulgarian resort town of Burgas, killing five Israelis, their Bulgarian driver and the bomber. Bulgarian investigators blame Hezbollah and say the plotters included a Canadian and an Australian. They find no links to Iran.""

Hezbollah has flatly denied involvement which, of course, doesn't mean much, but their involvement is by no means certain.

Five incidents in nineteen years which, when they are examined, lead to what conclusion?

Two have no discernible connection with Hezbollah
One has a shaky connection with no evidential back up.
One, the latest, is flatly denied, but may be a Hezbollah act.
One, the earliest, most likely (but not certainly) a Hezbollah act.

They must certainly be terrifying the Israelis.

You know Keith, I would have thought by now that you would do a little research beyond Israel's Department of Propaganda.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:31 AM

Hezbollah are vicious, murdering, indiscriminating terrorists.

Wrong, Keith. They are an integral part of the government in Lebanon. They are involved in infrastructure development and they run hospitals, schools and agricultural training institutions, and they enjoy the support of a large proportion of the Lebanese population. Your ignorant, dismissive, demonising characterisation of Hezbollah is absolutely typical of the attitude that is forever going to prevent peace from taking over the region.

wiki:

An IRIN news report of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs noted:
"Hezbollah not only has armed and political wings – it also boasts an extensive social development program. Hezbollah currently operates at least four hospitals, twelve clinics, twelve schools and two agricultural centres that provide farmers with technical assistance and training. It also has an environmental department and an extensive social assistance program. Medical care is also cheaper than in most of the country's private hospitals and free for Hezbollah members."
According to CNN, "Hezbollah did everything that a government should do, from collecting the garbage to running hospitals and repairing schools." In July 2006, during the war with Israel, when there was no running water in Beirut, Hezbollah was arranging supplies around the city. Lebanese Shiites "see Hezbollah as a political movement and a social service provider as much as it is a militia."

I suppose that, if you were to ask the people in southern Lebanon whose kids have had their legs and feet blown off by some of the hundreds of thousands of deadly cluster bomblets (US made) left there in their fields by Israel, it wouldn't be Hezbollah they'd be calling vicious, murdering, undiscriminating terrorists. Though I fully expect that you'll come up with some way of blaming them for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 07:23 AM

"Some of those who would like top "bring a new holocaust for the 6 million Jews of Israel".
It is lying and deeply offensive slander to suggest that anybody on Mudcat wants or has suggested the destruction of Israel - anybody with a modicum of principle would either produce proof or withdraw such a cowardly and unwarranted suggestion - won't happen here of course.
Some others who fall into that category.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/jew2jew.html
"Are you a halfwit?"
Bit of an over-estimation don't you think Don?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 06:45 AM


Are you telling me that this is an unreasonable comment, when they are at loggerheads with every other state in the region?

Yes, because the alternative is that Hezbollah gets the weapons and the region is destabilised bringing more and worse conflict, death, destruction and suffering.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 06:40 AM

""So Don, you do not mind if the UN ban against weapons for Hezbollah is flouted if only Israel can enforce it.
Why?
Surely the important thing for the poor people of that region is that the weapons are stopped.
(They also get arms from Iran)""

Once again you are putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.

Are you a halfwit?

I said I had "NO OBJECTION TO ANY COUNTRY WHICH WAS FORMALLY TASKED BY THE UN, INCLUDING ISRAEL!"   Can you hear me now?

I further commented that I think the UN would be unwise to task Israel with that job, given their relationship with their neighbours.

Are you telling me that this is an unreasonable comment, when they are at loggerheads with every other state in the region?

All of which is immaterial, since they, with their usual arrogance, went ahead and did it, knowing that any active response by their neighbours willonly result in the destruction of those neighbours and more territory for the region's only nuclear power.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 04:55 AM

If Israel were to lay down arms, there would be no more Israel."

And that is what the Israel haters hope for, in Mid East and Mudcat.
It would bring a new holocaust for the 6 million Jews of Israel, but as Bruce says, they can not be expected to go meekly into the fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 02:42 AM

False comparison Steve.
Hezbollah are vicious, murdering, indiscriminating terrorists.
Whatever you think of Israel, it is a recognised state and UN member, like Syria.

There is no UN ban on delivering weapons to Syria.
No arms shipment to Syria has been stopped by military means, (though Britain to its credit stopped a shipload of helicopter gunships by withdrawing its insurance).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 11:31 PM

I feel for the people of both Israel and Palestine who want a solution, and for their families overseas. I hope there is movement towards a safe and equitable solution for all. When military leaders are in control on both sides, then military responses will continue. It's a catch 22.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 08:33 PM

It is nothing to do with any imagined vendetta Jim.
I am just interested in your view of the air strike to prevent the arms shipment.

Israel is shit-scared that Hezbollah are getting as many arms out of Syria as they can before the regime falls. So Israel attacks sovereign territory which it has, at present, no military engagement with.

Well Keith. Let's imagine for a minute that the Palestinians are well-armed, and are involved in bombing convoys in international waters carrying arms to Israel, or, worse, are somehow diverting Yankee aid so that Israel can't use it to make weapons. Legitimate? You'd better answer yes, Keith. Don't want double standards, do we?

If you defend the attacks on arms shipments from Syria, you have to defend all manner of other pre-emptive attacks on sovereign territory, not just the ones that favour the side you're on. Agreed? 9-11?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 08:14 PM

Bottom line???

The US needs to push as hard as it can to bringing about a settlement...

This one single issue is the poster-boy issue behind radicalization in North Africa, the Middle east and Indonesia...

If we are going to move forward this is 1st base...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: kendall
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 07:13 PM

Andrew Jackson in his Farewell address said, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance". March 4, 1837.
Way before John Birch.