BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:46 AM

Helen Seigal specifically reported seeing the Israeli troops standing by watching the massacres take place OVER THREE DAYS and doing exactly nothing and then destroying the evidence with bulldozers - is this right, antisemitic, made up, or what?

Made up Jim.
When she was led out of the camp in the aftermath she reported Israeli soldiers outside the camp looking in.
Even from rooftops they could not have witnessed events in the streets.

Jim, Israel is NOT the worst country in the world so why do you single it out.
All countries are criticised from time to time.

Israel's response.
Buses.
The reality is exactly the opposite – there are no "Palestinian only" buses. Instead, with its new bus routes, Israel is reducing crowded buses, attempting to relieve ethnic tensions and security concerns, and is assisting Arab Palestinians enter Green Line Israel to work. But we'll get to the facts – which exonerate Israel from "Apartheid" charges – in a minute. For right now you can rest assured that despite efforts to cast the Arab Palestinians in the role of Rosa Parks, a closer fit would be to cast the purveyors of this latest attack as peddlers of the Big Lie.

The bare fact: the Israeli government added two bus lines (so far, there was overcrowding on Monday, March 4, the first day the service was instituted, and the Transportation Ministry said more buses will likely be added) that will serve Arab Palestinian towns with transportation into central Israel. The Israeli bus lines previously did not stop in towns controlled by the Palestinian Authority. Despite the efforts of BDS advocates, there are tens of thousands of Arab Palestinians who work in different parts of Israel. Arab Palestinians with work permits would previously have to travel first to a place where the Israeli buses stop, or would be dependent on the much higher-priced Arab buses to get into central Israel.

So why the hysteria? Because some see this as an evil plot to segregate Jews and Arabs. But non-citizens are not entitled to use Israeli public transportation into central Israel without showing border identification, and prior to the provision of these new bus lines, Arab Palestinians were dependent on transportation services by "pirate" (Arab, by the way) companies which charged the Arabs far more than the Israeli lines do.
The new bus lines are not, as the misleading headlines suggest, only for Arab Palestinians, the restriction they have is that they only stop at Arab towns in the territories

Child prisoners.
Figures from the end of January showed that of the 233 of the "children" currently held in custody, 202 of them were over the age of 16, according to the AFP news agency.

The report, entitled, "Children in Israeli Military Detention," claimed, "Ill treatment of Palestinian children in the Israeli military detention system appears to be widespread, systematic and institutionalized."

In response, Israel's Foreign Ministry said it had provided UNICEF with material used in the report and pledged to work towards implementation of its conclusions.

"Israel will study the conclusions and will work to implement them through ongoing cooperation with UNICEF, whose work we value and respect," a Foreign Ministry statement said.

The majority of PA Arab teens incarcerated and referred to in the report were apparently arrested for hurling rocks at Israeli motorists – an act intended to kill, and which has sometimes succeeded.

Last December, a 17-year-old rock-throwing Arab nearly killed a baby when the huge rock he hurled at an Israeli car smashed the window a few inches from the infant. Mainstream media ignored the attack.

"We were saved by a miracle," "Roie," a resident of Samaria, told Arutz Sheva. "I do not even want to think what would have happened if the rock had hit the baby."

A year earlier, rock-throwing road terrorists succeeded in murdering Kiryat Arba resident Asher Palmer and his toddler son, Yonaton, when they threw a rock at Palmer's car from a passing vehicle on Highway 60 in Judea. The murder, which to police at first appeared to be a routine traffic accident, later was proved through evidence to be a terrorist attack.

In 2011 a 17-year-old PA youth, Hakim Awad, was arrested for the murder of five members of one family, including a 3-month-old baby girl.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:33 AM

Oh no - not the "Old 2013 thread drift" show!!!!
Neither of these are thread drifts - they both relate directly to the human rights record of Israel.
The child abuse report particularly relates directly to UN condemnation of Israel for human rights abuses against children by Israel
You do not get out of either of these by scurrying behind the old tried-'n -failed "thread drift" defence.
You can't pick-'n-mix which particular human rights abuses and war crimes you want to defend on a thread that you have drifted to the "good treatment and equality of all Israeli citizens - and various other human rights abuses - sorry 'bout that.
PLEASE RESPOND TO THESE ABUSES.
And by the way - Helen Seigal specifically reported seeing the Israeli troops standing by watching the massacres take place OVER THREE DAYS and doing exactly nothing and then destroying the evidence with bulldozers - is this right, antisemitic, made up, or what?
Perhaps in quoting witnesses, it is wiser to steer clear of those with a conscience, especially those who went off and joined the Palestinian Solidarity campaign on the strength of their experiences.
Y'all have a good day, d'you hear now!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:00 AM

And now, another one!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 06:53 AM

Apartheid Israel – it's official
First this
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2075985/Women-told-sit-buses-Israel-despite-practice-outlawed.html
Now this
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/05/17194265-a-palestinian-rosa-parks-is-needed-israels-segregated-buses-spark-outrage

Jim Carrroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 06:22 AM

Jim, your last post is not a contribution to the debate, it is starting a new one!
Another thing you always do when losing one.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 06:03 AM

Jim
Incidentally – you typically forgot to mention that Nurse Helen Seigal, despite having given evidence at the Kahan Commission of Enquiry, witnessed Israeli bulldozers destroying refugees houses, and that she saw (heavily armed and well-trained) Israeli soldiers viewing the massacre close hand for three days without lifting a finger to intervene.

She reported no complicity.
Yes the militia had Israeli equipment including bulldozers.
The houses destroyed were on the edge of the camp, she said.
Houses on the edge would be fortified by the PLO defenders.
She reported Israelis observing from outside.
Even from rooftops they could not have seen what was happening in the warren of streets.

Don, do you support Stringsinger starting threads with blatant lies and posting inflammatory, unsubstantiated, groundless accusations just to foment an argument?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:54 AM

You want something new? - as fresh as this morning's news.
What's a girl to do - ignore, deny or accuse Unicef of being antisemitic - choices, choices?
Jim Carroll

PALESTINIAN CHILDREN ILL-TREATED BY ISRAELI MILITARY, SAYS UNICEF.
MARK WEISS
In Jerusalem

The United Nations Children's Fund (Unicef) has accused Israel of systematic ill- treatment of Palestinian children detained in the West Bank in violation of international law.
Unicef estimated that 700 Palestinian children aged 12-17, most of them boys detained for throwing stones, are arrested, interrogated and held by the Israeli military, police and security agents every year, an average of two a day.
A 22-page report issued yesterday, based on more than 400 cases of detention and ill-treatment documented since 2009, identified practices that "amount to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment", according to the Convention on the Rights of the Child and the Convention against Torture.
According to the report, ill- treatment of Palestinian minors typically begins with the arrest itself, often carried out in the middle of the night by heavily armed soldiers, and continues all the way through prosecution and sentencing.
"The pattern of ill-treatment includes... the practice of blindfolding children and tying their hands with plastic ties, and physical and verbal abuse during transfer to an interrogation site, including the use of painful restraints."
Most children confess at the end of the interrogation, signing forms in Hebrew which they hardly understand, the report says.
"Ultimately, almost all children plead guilty in order to reduce the length of their pretrial detention. Pleading guilty is the quickest way to be released. In short, the system does not allow children to defend themselves," Unicef concluded.
Unicef was also critical of what it termed the inadequacy of the Israeli military court system for processing Palestinian juvenile detainees in an appropriate manner for their age.
Unicef noted some positive changes introduced by Israel in recent years: hand-tying procedures were changed to prevent pain and injury; police are now required to notify the parents of detained children; and children are informed of their right to consult a lawyer.
Israel's foreign ministry stressed the improvements that were welcomed by Unicef and promised to study the report's conclusions and work to implement them through co¬operation with Unicef.
An Israeli army officer said the military was considering videotaping interrogations, and that, from next month, a minor will only be held for a maximum of 48 hours before appearing before a judge.
Qadoura Fares, chairman of the Palestinian prisoners' society, which is in touch with the prisoners and their families, praised the report and called for Israel to be held accountable.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:19 AM

""I reiterate, Zionism has a false equivalency with Judaism. There are Jews all over the world who are disgusted at the actions Israel has taken.""

Not to mention the Jews within Israel itself who are equally disgusted, though of course, as Keith will no doubt tell us, they are all liars and malcontents,........in Keith's fantasy world!

A world in which all, without exception, who criticise any action of the Zionist government of Israel are either liars or antisemites, while all who endorse every action (including Keith himself) are models of moral rectitude and veracity, who spend their days polishing their haloes.

Fantasy barely covers the lunatic impossibility of that mindset.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:08 AM

""Stringsinger, you are a troll.
You start threads and post inflammatory, unsubstantiated accusations.
We know you hate Israel.
Posting more groundless accusations is no contribution.
If you have no facts, fuck off.""

I reckon you hit a nerve there String!

Made the faux polite veneer slip a bit. I always knew it was only a mask.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 04:55 AM

Incidentally – you typically forgot to mention that Nurse Helen Seigal, despite having given evidence at the Kahan Commission of Enquiry, witnessed Israeli bulldozers destroying refugees houses, and that she saw (heavily armed and well-trained) Israeli soldiers viewing the massacre close hand for three days without lifting a finger to intervene.
The bulldozers were later used to hide the bodies (and, no doubt, build the stadium over the mass graves to hide the evidence)
"We waited four days for that non-contribution."
I assume you were counting the days - are we back at the royal "we"?
Jim Carroll

Ellen Siegel is a Jewish American. She first visited Israel, the West Bank, Gaza and Lebanon in 1972. Since that time she has been an active member and supporter of the Jewish and Israeli peace movements, and has supported the Palestinian solidarity cause. She volunteered her nursing services in 1982 during Israeli's war on Lebanon. She worked in Gaza Hospital, Sabra refugee camp in Beirut and was present during the massacre. She testified before the Kahan Commission of Inquiry. She continues to work part-time as a nurse in WDC, and serves on the Medical Committee of the American Near East Refugee Aid.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 04:00 AM

So, nothing to add to the discussion then Jim.
We waited four days for that non-contribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:47 AM

"If you have no facts, fuck off."
Tsk, tsk - careful - the mask's slipping.
No - not only is it you who has no facts, but you have rejected out of hand every single researched and documented "fact" put before you - even to the "factual" dictionary definition of "toxic" and how it applies to the proposed forcible removal of a nomadic people onto a site where they will not only not be able to continue their livelihood, but will - by that definition (accepted by the Israeli health authorities), be slowly poisoned simply by being forced to live in its proximity.
The "fact" that you have refused to comment on the "fact" that the forced removal of people of one national/cultural group in order to make room for another is the act of a Fascist/racist regime - by anybody's definition, is indicative that you are fully aware of this "fact" yet refuse to even acknowledge it.
The real "fact" here is that you have failed to produce one single "fact" yourself; rather you have chosen to deny every "fact" put before you that doesn't favour Israel - the only "facts" you have produced have been invented by you, in "fact" they are lies.
You've done this in support of mass murder (of old and young, men women and especially children), human rights abuses and ethnic cleansing - a "fact" which makes you a supporter of all these and much, much more.
In "fact" it is you that is the "troll" here, and a pretty stomach-heaving one at that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:16 AM

Don, people lie.
We can still have a discussion.

Stringsinger, you are a troll.
You start threads and post inflammatory, unsubstantiated accusations.
We know you hate Israel.
Posting more groundless accusations is no contribution.
If you have no facts, fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:17 PM

The defense of Israel is a losing proposition because the world community knows what's going on there. The delusion that Israel is somehow acting in good faith as a world
community is being challenged every day by new news of atrocities in that country.
Every country in the world has leaders that lie to keep their positions secure. The big lie is that Israel's supporters in their egregious actions are in a state of national denial.
I reiterate, Zionism has a false equivalency with Judaism. There are Jews all over the world who are disgusted at the actions Israel has taken.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 06:37 PM

""It is not an inconvenient fact Don.
Every country has citizens who hate it enough to lie to discredit it.

I trust no assertions, especially from "eye witnesses" who only appear long after the event.""

You trust NO ASSERTIONS which show the lengths to which the Israeli government is willing to go in destroying and annexeing the land which rightly belongs to Palestinians.

Thjat doesn't mean that you are right, or that any of those witnesses lied.

It simply means that you wouldn't believe Israel was wrong if Netanyahu and his cohorts confessed and swore it on the Talmud.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 11:39 AM

It is not an inconvenient fact Don.
Every country has citizens who hate it enough to lie to discredit it.

I trust no assertions, especially from "eye witnesses" who only appear long after the event.

Robert Fisk and the nurse were there in the immediate aftermath and testified at the time, as did Israeli soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 10:21 AM

""People lie, especially about Israel.""

But in your fantasy world, of course, it is inconceivable that the Israeli government could equally lie?

The fact that some people lie or are mistaken is not, by any stretch of the imagination, evidence that Israel does not.

And remember the inconvenient fact that many of those witnesses are Israelis.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 10:12 AM

How can we tell if eye witnesses are reliable?
Remember the ones who saw IDF soldiers throwing bodies off the Marmara?
Or the ones who saw a young activist executed on deck, with "video"?

People lie, especially about Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 09:55 AM

""I read and acknowledge the version of events supplied by you and Jim, and then provide a different version equally or more consistent with the known facts.""

Such as the ""different version equally or more consistent with the known facts.""........ ""Israel denies that"" in response to one or more of my posts containing multiple accounts by reliable eye witnesses and others, equally reliable.

Would you like me to locate and post the relevant ""different version equally or more consistent with the known facts."", or would you rather not force me to expose your lie?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 08:21 AM

When one person consistently says "You are wrong, because Israel says so",

But, I never say any such thing.
I read and acknowledge the version of events supplied by you and Jim, and then provide a different version equally or more consistent with the known facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 08:18 AM


Then what would you call your assertion that the attack on Egypt was designed by Hamas to acquire vehicles to attack Israel

Because that is what happened Don!
See the links on the other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:51 AM

""Why not just debate with me Don?
Point for point.""

I cannot debate a two sided issue with somebody who doesn't recognise the existence of two sides.

When one person consistently says "You are wrong, because Israel says so", when Israel's actions are the point of the supposed discussion, debate becomes impossible.

When one person responds to every single piece of evidence presented with either "The source is unreliable, anti Israel, or antisemitic", or "Israel denies that", debate becomes impossible.

But of course you know all that already. It's your stock in trade to block debate when you know you have a weak or indefensible case.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:43 AM

""What Hamas thinks?
Who knows?
I have never speculated.""

IS THAT SO?

Then what would you call your assertion that the attack on Egypt was designed by Hamas to acquire vehicles to attack Israel?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:34 AM

Stringsinger, put down the Protocols of the Elders of Zion - it's a hoax.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 01:39 AM

Any attempt to land supplies to the Palestinians is shut off by Israeli attacks.

Yes, but you will not read about it on Al Jazeera or anywhere else.
The Jews control everything you see, hear or read now.

The evidence is here, though.

Fool.
We have controlled Mudcat for years.
No-one sees your warnings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:38 PM

AIPAC has surreptitiously placed a gag order on mainstream media's reporting on Israel.
Al Jazeera may be the only source left on TV to get to the truth.
The Netanyahu warmongers have infiltrated the US government and they are terrified of AIPAC. The so-called Jewish lobby exerts undue influence in the US.
This is the reason that reportage is not only inaccurate when it exists but mostly is absent from the air ways.

For this reason, we are unable to get the real facts on this issue and must resort to wild speculation and ad hominem arguments.

The evidence is here, though. Any attempt to land supplies to the Palestinians is shut off by Israeli attacks.

The evidence presented here by pro-Israeli fanatics has to be specious.

The Palestinian people are suffering at the hands of Israel. That is indisputable.

The danger is that Israel could trigger another world war unless brakes are put upon their expansion by the international community.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 03:17 PM

Constant denials without evidence, comments on what Israel thinks, Egypt thinks, Hamas thinks

Totally untrue.
What have I ever denied without evidence?

What Israel thinks. I have quoted from spokespersons or sites.
Why not?

What Egypt thinks?
I quote what their government says.
It says it closed the tunnels because of the attacks.

What Hamas thinks?
Who knows?
I have never speculated.

Why not just debate with me Don?
Point for point.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 02:46 PM

""Why not just address the points I make in my posts?
A discussion.""

Constant denials without evidence, comments on what Israel thinks, Egypt thinks, Hamas thinks, or God thinks, are meaningless since you cannot read minds and you do not present evidence.

They do not amount to discussion.

Younever discuss! You ASSERT!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:49 AM

That is all just personal stuff about me Don, and not true.

Why not just address the points I make in my posts?
A discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:35 AM

Minds, like parachutes, work only when open.

You are terrified of giving any consideration to anyone's viewpoint other than your own blinkered and biased mindset, and you spout other peoples opinions as if they were your own, then disown them when challenged.

It is a waste of time and effort trying to elicit either a balnced response or a single self produced thought or idea from you. It is always a case of "It's not my opinion, he (choose from the list of apologists) said it, and I believe him".

You are a highly selective but hollow sounding board for anybody who echoes your inbuilt anti Muslim (religious and cultural bias), Pro Israel (racial bias) prejudice.

In future, why not just post links to the people whose opinions you borrow, and we'll discuss it with them?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 04:45 PM

So I ask him who he thinks has most to gain from the closure and the isolation of Gaza from the outside world, and again he exempts Israel from the answer to that question, ignoring the fact that access to Egypt weakens the Israeli hold on Gaza, which they are actively engaged in blockading.
Israel has been steadily reducing restrictions on Gaza.
It is only weapons and explosives now.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 04:41 PM

Thanks Gil.
Two recent events in Brit universities.
Politician George Galloway was to take part in a debate about Israel.
When he learned that a student in the debate was an Israeli, he walked out.

A Bedouin Israeli invited to speak at another was shouted down and prevented from speaking by demonstrators.

What are these people afraid of?
Perhaps the truth.


What I have said is that nobody knows for sure who the killers of those Egyptians were, who precipitated the closure, and I stand by that statement. Can you prove that I am wrong?

I have only stated that Egypt knows.
The soldiers who fought them, from what happened at the funerals, believed Hamas was responsible.
The government closed the tunnels immediately, as a result of the attack.
After seven months of intelligence gathering and investigation, they clearly were completely satisfied as to who was responsible, and closed the tunnels in the most insulting and contemptuous way possible.

Why don't you tell them that they know nothing Don?
They might make you chief of security.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Gil Troy
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 03:54 PM

McGill University has been my academic home for two decades. I have taught thousands of students, always encouraging them to ask, challenge, learn and think independently. I frequently echo a friend of mine who would grandly welcome me into his home saying, "He who is shy does not eat" by saying, "He – or she – who is shy does not learn." I love the classroom's openness, the luxury we students and professors have to explore intellectually together. I relish every class I have taught as a learning journey, trying to break down the artificial barriers we all erect that stop us from thinking, stretching and growing.

Given that love of the learning process, I was surprised last month when I appeared at the McGill bookstore for a lunchtime lecture to launch my new book. For the first time in my McGill career – despite having taken controversial positions over those years – I was picketed. My crime, of course, was being a Zionist and writing a book about Zionism –Moynihan's Moment: America's Fight Against Zionism as Racism. As I and others who came to the lecture ascended the third-floor staircase, two or three protesters presented us with an anti-Zionist handout, emphasizing that they were Jewish and anti-Zionist.

Most people attending the lecture ignored the protesters, who hold weekly anti-Zionist vigils. It's important to emphasize that there were 15 to 20 times more attendees than protesters. One student, Yonah Diamond, who was a Shalom Hartman Institute summer intern with me last summer, spoke to the protesters, respectfully. A Jewish studies and political science major from Toronto, Diamond challenged an "End Zionism" sign they had brandished a week earlier. He asked: "Don't you see the hypocrisy in advocating on behalf of one people's rights [the Palestinians'] while simultaneously denying that self-determination to another people?"

Diamond quickly realized "they were completely OK with this hypocrisy, because they simply accepted stereotypical accusations, which they claimed to be historically accurate," taking refuge in the usual anti-Zionist buzzwords: "colonialist, ethnic cleansing, racist, apartheid." Their discussion about a two-state solution was particularly appalling. "They thought the idea of partition or two states was racist," he reports, which suggested to him that "they're not living in reality… they truly believe the lies and stereotypes."

During the question period following my lecture, one protester, wearing anti-Zionist slogans on his ski jacket, took something I said out of context to accuse me of being "racist." He lacked the discipline or the integrity to ask a question. He had not come to learn, only to posture. Although I had told the bookstore officials I did not object to the students leafleting inside the warm store rather than outside in the frigid cold – because I believe in academic freedom – his approach, which reflected no interest in learning, offended me – and I told him so. He walked away angrily.

Another protester asked a reasonable question. After comparing Israel to apartheid-era South Africa – a premise I refuted by noting the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a national not racial conflict – he asked what criticisms I had of Israel. This question gave me an opportunity to celebrate Israeli democracy, and demonstrate that I, like others, have many concerns regarding the peace process, the growing gap between rich and poor and the role of the ultra-Orthodox. But, I pointed out, whatever criticisms I have, I don't reject the state. I don't demonize a country because, like all countries, it's imperfect.

In truth, the other questions I fielded were better, fuller, richer, more illuminating about my talk – and more to the point. They were asked by people who came to learn, not to score points, and they pushed me to refine some ideas while inviting me to emphasize others.

Diamond believes, that, ironically, the protesters, "proved the importance of [my] message. The way they unthinkingly accused Israel of all these modern evils emptied these terms of any meaning. This ignorance filled the halls of the UN General Assembly in 1975 and continues to poison the minds of my fellow students. [Former American UN ambassador] Daniel Patrick Moynihan taught us that words and ideas have far-reaching consequences, and this couldn't have become clearer to me that day."

Students such as Yonah – some of whom, like him, become friends – make teaching at McGill a privilege. Not because he agrees with me, but because he comes to learn, and therefore does.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 10:09 AM

""2) As I said, Egypt closes tunnels to Gaza so we blame the Israelis. So when Canada closes pipelines to the US we blame the Israelis. Makes perfect sense to me.""

If you are going to take issue with what we are saying, it might be worth your while to find out what that is, don't you think Bruce?

I have not said that Israel is to blame for the closure, by Egypt, of the tunnels.

What I have said is that nobody knows for sure who the killers of those Egyptians were, who precipitated the closure, and I stand by that statement. Can you prove that I am wrong?

They could have been Palestinian. They could have been Hamas. They could have been Mossad.

I don't know, you don't know and Keith doesn't know, but Keith is the only one who expresses complete certainty that Israel alone of the possible miscreants, are innocent.

So I ask him who he thinks has most to gain from the closure and the isolation of Gaza from the outside world, and again he exempts Israel from the answer to that question, ignoring the fact that access to Egypt weakens the Israeli hold on Gaza, which they are actively engaged in blockading.

Do you recognise BIAS when you see it?

Or are you another who believes that bias only applies to Israel's opponents and not its supporters?

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 09:42 AM

Keith. You don't know that. You're making an assumption not based on evidence.
The government of Israel is not going to tell anyone if they live near a toxic waste site.
Nor will the US or any other country. This is why many are getting sick today, but this is a whole new thread. Israel is as culpable in this regard as any other corporate controlled country.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 05:14 AM


No one should ever have to be forced to live by a toxic waste site and yet increasingly this is what is happening all over the world.

Yes Stringsinger, but thankfully not in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 01:21 AM

I have to disagree 999.
Here is the OP in full.

Both the United Nations and Russia have condemned Israel for the bombing of Syria and Lebanon, hoping that Israel will be forced to appear at the International World Court.

That is not partial bollocks, that is total bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 05:18 PM

1) Stringsinger's OP was not total bollocks. It did however gild the lily. The Israeli's were condemned for the crap they did in the settlements years back but not what they did in Syria recently.

2) As I said, Egypt closes tunnels to Gaza so we blame the Israelis. So when Canada closes pipelines to the US we blame the Israelis. Makes perfect sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 04:07 PM

Not so fast about Egypt pouring sewage into tunnels. That has not been confirmed.

Wrong again Stringsinger.
It has.
Your OP was total bollocks too.
Anything to say about that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 02:59 PM

""The Palestinian people are forced into living conditions which don't preclude their exposure to toxic sites.""

Not to mention the people of Gaza, who are forced to live in and around bombsites and unexploded munitions.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 01:38 PM

The reason the discussion has lasted so long is that it is urgent that the world condemn Israel for it's expansion and oppression.

Israel has been and will continue to be condemned for it's air strikes because they are ruthless and accomplish nothing to assuage Hezbollah or any other group like it.

Not so fast about Egypt pouring sewage into tunnels. That has not been confirmed.

The Palestinian people are forced into living conditions which don't preclude their exposure to toxic sites. People are forced into these conditions not by choice but often by design. To think otherwise is simply naive. They are usually built by those inhabitants who are not wealthy or privileged.

No one should ever have to be forced to live by a toxic waste site and yet increasingly this is what is happening all over the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 08:45 AM

http://adalah.org/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 08:42 AM

Nope - a fact reported throughout the Israeli Inequality survey

Nope- not a single mention for "Bedouin" or "Negev."

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:yaQGdb_Gh1MJ:adalah.org/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf+Ineq

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 06:57 AM

If I can not provide any evidence or arguments, it is surprising that the discussion has lasted for so long, and that you have lost it.

So, has Israel been condemned for the airstrike?
No, because the weapons were destined for the evil terrorists of Hezbollah now killing Syrians for Assad.

And, did Egypt's government pour sewage into the tunnels because they were used in the attack?
Yes. They are quite clear about that.

And, are Israel's refuse sites any more toxic than ours?
No.

Has anyone been forced to move to a toxic site, or to stay near one?
No.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 06:49 AM

""Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.""

Where precisely in that oft quoted screed is there any reference to disagreeing with, deploring, or decrying the actions of a national government, or are you now applying different standards to the Israeli government than to all others?

Antisemitism would more properly apply to Keith's constant denigration and disrespect of those Israeli citizens who have either given evidence against, or deplored their government's actions.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 05:04 AM

And BTW - you have also admitted that the only claim of of innocence of Israel's war crimes is from Israel herself, which more or less clinches her guilt.
"That is just Greenwood's opinion."
Nope - a fact reported throughout the Israeli Inequality survey and from 100 other sources - some of which you already have - read 'em and weep!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 02:55 AM

"Sorry, but I am putting Israel's case."
And those (just about everybody here) who oppose you have taken their information from everywhere - the U.N., Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the British, American, Israeli.... press, specific studies of Israel's built-in inequality (the Apartheid State), American, British and Jewish accounts of the massacre of refugees, Scientific Journals, Israeli's own health reports.... (just about anywhere's throughout the English-speaking world's)with a few translations thrown in.
You haven't attempted to disprove any of the evidence, you have rejected it out of hand as being prejudiced, 'antisemitic'; you have even rejected some evidence on the basis that it comes from the "antisemitic" Guardian purely on the the say-so of a site that declares in it's mission statement that it's role is to expose the "antisemitic nature of The Guardian".   
You are now insisting, by your constant reiterating that you are "putting Israel's case", that you are biased - you might have added that you are rejecting all evidence that doesn't come from Israel, which totally sums up the biased nature of your arguments.
That is the definition of "bias"; only taking into consideration one side of the argument.
By the way, you have claimed that you have not accused any of us of antisemitism.
By rejecting the evidence ("not worthy of consideration") put before you on the basis that it is biased and antisemitic, that is exactly what you are accusing everyone who is disgusted by Israel's human rights record of - antisemitism, or at the very least antisemitic dupes.
Your denial of lying appears to be 'lying about lying' - I trust we will soon be treated to you lying about lying about lying!
There's a whole list of examples if you want me to dig them, out - this forum's full of them; but your claim to have read all the links put forward, then passing a year old one as being "out-of-date", then being totally unaware of how many you have been given is being caught 'bang-to-rights - that's the problem with lying in public.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 05:11 PM


You put up Israeli denials as a case and seem to think that outweighs all evidence to the contrary.
No.
I just relate Israel's side of the story.

Townships in the poorest districts, with built in high crime levels?
That is just Greenwood's opinion.
Biased and prejudiced propaganda.
Do you think people prefer to live in shacks and tents with no sanitation, water or power?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 04:16 PM

"Produce evidence from some source which is not wholly owned or threatened by Israel."

Antisemitism as defined by the European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC)

"Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 13 - 04:05 PM

""Sorry, but I am putting Israel's case.
And, you said "I have no objection to you putting Israel's case Keith.""

You don't accept the Palestinians' or Hamas' word alone, so we put up corroborating evidence, much of it from Israeli and neutral sources.

You put up Israeli denials as a case and seem to think that outweighs all evidence to the contrary.

I don't believe you have a clue what constitutes a case.

I don't believe you have a clue what constitutes genuine evidence.

In fact, I think you believe that evidence is whatever you choose to believe, and incontovertible because you choose to believe it.

You have signally failed to put Israel's case and if you ever had to present your ""evidence"" in any court, you would be torn apart by any half decent law student.

Don T.