BS: Militant atheism has become a religion

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sin
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:15 PM

Im sure Steve might answer this as you posed the question to him.

But for me, there is a body of evidence to suggest the Bible talk of people being raised from the dead is physically impossible. Feeding umpteen people with little food cannot be done. Tablets of stone written by a human invention, floods and plagues caused by conscious intervention. Wrong.

So. The evidence suggests the Bible is fantasy. No problem with that. There are plenty of people who are intelligent enough to use such stories as a moral guide without being simple souls who actually belive it as literal. But there is the evidence. The Bible with its miracles, the q'ran with its flying carpets and heavenly noodles from more recent cults.

The evidence suggests they cannot be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:21 PM

""(call it a Deity for convenience)""

I called it that because it's the only thing you can call it if you don't want the whole weight of the religiosos coming down on you like a ton of you know what.

I have previously used the word "entity" with precisely that response.

As I can only guess at what it is that my gut instinct tells me is there, it isn't possible to define it.

But I do know that it isn't what the black frock brigade would have me believe.

I don't ask them to espouse my take on the subject. Why do they feel the need to convert me to theirs?

Is their belief so weak that my (and others') lack of belief threatens them in some way?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:04 PM

But for me, there is a body of evidence to suggest the Bible talk of people being raised from the dead is physically impossible. Feeding umpteen people with little food cannot be done. Tablets of stone written by a human invention, floods and plagues caused by conscious intervention. Wrong.

So. The evidence suggests the Bible is fantasy.

That's right. But fantasy's fine as long as you don't start to think it's reality. Fantasy is one of the spices of life. For me, evidence has got to have more balls than "somebody says so". We don't know that the theory of evolution is true because Darwin said so. We know it's true because he gave us real evidence to chew over, things we can go out and find for ourselves (I do it every day) and everything that's been explored in that particular field since Darwin has confirmed the theory. We are supposed to think the Bible's true because someone says so. Because whoever wrote it said so and whoever tell it us from pulpits says so. This in spite of the Bible being full of inconsistencies and somewhat dodgy omissions (the gospels of Mary and Thomas, anyone?). We are supposed to believe the intimate details of the life of Jesus, including hundreds of his precisely-recorded sayings, written by men who not only never met him but who lived a hundred years after him. But that's divine inspiration, and we're supposed to believe that that's possible, because religious people say so. We are supposed to believe in Lourdes and Fatima because some small girls made unsubstantiated claims (it's always peasants on hillsides somehow). We are supposed to believe that certain persons have had various visions and speak with God's authority, just because they say, uncheckably, they've had visions. We are supposed to believe that God is all-merciful and can be prayed to because bishops and priests and Mother Teresa say so (in spite of the fact that they don't know any more about these things than anyone else does). We are supposed to have our belief reinforced by beautiful cathedrals, works of art and sublime religious music, but they are all made by clever human beings and have nothing to do with belief. We are supposed to be overawed by ceremony and tradition into believing even more strongly, yet ceremony and traditions are no more than human inventions (and there have been some pretty foul ones down the line of human history). Above all, these say-so people tell us it's wrong to not believe, and that you must mistrust atheists and people not of your belief system by accident of birth. Because they say so. Well, I want evidence, not people telling me to believe stuff because they say so.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:54 PM

Erm......Don, I have as much right as you to express an opinion on this thread as you have .

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:13 PM

inane..come on Don ...... lighten up a bit.. what is the rest of the shite on this thread about?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:21 PM

Germane..? Don......? read the last two posts.

Please, Please, please, please, pretty pink please.. tell me you are not up your own ass like that smug, no mark, fraudulent mariner.... Jerk the sailior

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,corcerened
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:31 PM

...................or maybe you are?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:12 PM

?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 May 13 - 05:49 AM

""Erm......Don, I have as much right as you to express an opinion on this thread as you have .""

I couldn't agree more!

So is there any chance that you might stop slagging off everybody else and post one?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 May 13 - 05:51 AM

On topic would be good, rather than personal comment about other posters.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: John P
Date: 09 May 13 - 10:18 AM

Comprehensible would be good, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 09 May 13 - 12:22 PM

Aint that what I have been doing on all me posts..expressing an opinion? mebe not as in depth as you beige pseudo intellectuals..But hey.. the subject matter is a bit emotive and contrevershul aint it.?

At the end of hte day you all are only quoting stuff what you have read in books, not an original thought in all your collective so called brains.

When you get some constructive critism you start slagging me off, or like old barnacle balls, the fake smug mariner, kick all their toys out the pram an say they are gonna ignore me.Any more of this self indulgent behavioure and I will leave the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 May 13 - 12:42 PM

Steve Shaw
We don't know that the theory of evolution is true because Darwin said so. We know it's true because he gave us real evidence to chew over, things we can go out and find for ourselves (I do it every day) and everything that's been explored in that particular field since Darwin has confirmed the theory.

This approach to science is called Logical Positivism.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 May 13 - 01:15 PM

""mebe not as in depth as you beige pseudo intellectuals..But hey.. the subject matter is a bit emotive and contrevershul aint it.?

At the end of hte day you all are only quoting stuff what you have read in books, not an original thought in all your collective so called brains.""

And that is what you fondly imagine to be:

1. On topic... i.e. bearing some relationship to the subject under discussion.

2. Constructive... i.e. of some value or interest to the participants in the discussion.

Five miles wide of the target on both counts.

""Any more of this self indulgent behavioure and I will leave the thread.""

Since you are still posting self indulgent tripe, that would seem to be a good idea. Goodbye!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: BrendanB
Date: 09 May 13 - 02:31 PM

There now, you fed it and it puked up all over the thread again. Don, it's a troll. Leave it to rot.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 13 - 04:01 PM

Whatever made me think you'd turn up just there, Snail? So predictable.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 May 13 - 05:35 PM

Just trying to be helpful. Briefly, Logical Positivism is the idea that scientific statements should be verifiable by empirical means i,e, they can be proved to be true by the evidence. That is pretty much your position isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 May 13 - 06:18 PM

logical positism? so i invite steve to demonstrate the evidence for his aint no god position and all we get is more assertions that darwinism is an established fact.IMO that very assertion is in question and since steve is next to definite that God does not exist the onus is on him to demonsrate the evidence [ i am not arguing about the bible at this stage of this challenge,musket]
as yet there is no improvement on position that anything created and designed must have a maker and designer,and as yet there is no evidence for chemical evolution.we can of course argue the identity of said maker but God would be a good start.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 13 - 08:28 PM

logical positism? so i invite steve to demonstrate the evidence for his aint no god position and all we get is more assertions that darwinism is an established fact.IMO that very assertion is in question and since steve is next to definite that God does not exist the onus is on him to demonsrate the evidence [ i am not arguing about the bible at this stage of this challenge,musket]

I don't need to produce evidence for the probability that God does not exist because your assertion that he does exist has as much credibility as the assertion that Saturn's atmosphere is populated by seven-legged blue fellows with two willies each (actually, that's more likely than God, but do let's move on). Boringly, here's the point in a nutshell. Nature is beautiful, complex and diverse. We understand, more or less, the laws that govern it (we're closing in fast on the ones that still puzzle us). We can use the theory of natural selection and all the laws of physics to explain life and the universe. It's all very elegant, very wonderful, and very ordinary, and it works. Fabulous, I'd say. But you come along and interpose God. Now nature is complex enough, and for all we know nature exists on billions of other planets in the universe. Yet you think you can explain all that diversity and complexity with a God who breaks every rule of the universe, who has defied time in order to exist for infinity, and, in view of the complexity of life here and probably in billions of other places, must be infinitely more complex himself. Not only that, you appear to not be able to explain how the fellow came about in the first place. You are, in effect, trying to explain the already complex with the utterly inexplicable. Your explanation ratio is so pathetic that you end up with something far more inexplicable than the stuff he's supposed to explain. It wouldn't be half so bad if the fellow had ever shown his face, but, apart from a desert-dweller who lived two thousand years ago and about whom we have only the words of men who lived a hundred years after him, we are still waiting.

As for "Darwinism" being an established fact, it's more than that. It's a great truth, supported by a huge body of evidence. Don't get me started on evidence, pete. Let's just say that chaps telling you stuff from pulpits, people claiming to have had visions, dodgy translations of dodgy, ancient texts (carefully selected so as not to include "gospels" that don't suit the tale), traditions and "theology" simply don't pass the evidence test.

Finally, perhaps you'd care to expand on what you mean by "chemical evolution".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 May 13 - 09:27 PM

Steve Shaw
It's a great truth, supported by a huge body of evidence.

Yep. Logical Positivism with a touch of religiosity. From the link I gave earlier -

By the late 1970s, its ideas were so generally recognized to be seriously defective that one of its own main proponents, A. J. Ayer, could say in an interview: "I suppose the most important [defect]...was that nearly all of it was false."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 10 May 13 - 01:14 AM

Any one thought off using a crystal ball or throwing bones on the floor? About as muvj use as this self opiniated garbage anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 10 May 13 - 04:52 AM

Out of interest, isn't posting on forums a way of demonstrating being self opinionated? If an opinion coincides with one other person's then that could be coincidence. If it resonates with a number of people it could be a good opinion but if it is a mass opinion based on doctrine then..

Its delusion.

pete. I have no issue with designating the reason if there is one, the term god. My issue is giving form and function to the term. Especially when convenient to push an increasingly discredited hypothesis such as intelligent design or age of planet.

Again. There is nothing wrong in rejecting a philosophy on the basis of lack of evidence without having to state you support another. There is a stance that would say the answers aren't being supplied by any hypothesis just yet.   

Or put another way, if Allah appeared tomorrow, religious non Muslims would be having more difficulty coming to terms with it than heathen buggers like me. After all, if the evidence is compelling. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 May 13 - 05:24 AM

seems to me steve that you are continuing be evasive and very wordy without saying anything new. just the same old assertions.your previous post which i challenged took [it seems to me] a strong position that the evidence supports a no-god stance.
i am saying that a creator is a logical position for the existence of life,matter and energy and all its complexity and wonder.
you however have nothing to explain how it all began .claiming that science is closing in on the answers is just an appeal to the hope of the atheist.
once again we get the where did God come from tactic,when you know that the biblical teaching is that he is eternal and is spirit,and so not complex in terms of his being.
so bring forth your evidence for Gods non existence,or maybe retreat to a position that admits that there is just not enough evidence to satisfy you!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 13 - 06:23 AM

Perhaps Snail would articulate (oxymoronic allusion there, but to proceed...) where there is any hint of "religiosity" in anything I say. Not the just the religiose bits, but his definition of religiosity would be useful as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 13 - 06:41 AM

seems to me steve that you are continuing be evasive and very wordy without saying anything new. just the same old assertions.your previous post which i challenged took [it seems to me] a strong position that the evidence supports a no-god stance.

I have stated the case. I mean, what more can one do?

i am saying that a creator is a logical position for the existence of life,matter and energy and all its complexity and wonder.

Logical? I think not. I can't think of anything more illogical that inserting a vastly-improbable being, who no-one has ever seen or heard from, in order to explain what can already be largely explained by everyday laws of physics. Straying from pure logic for a minute (and putting myself in danger, therefore, of invading your comfort zone), I'd also say that your "explanation" is cumbersome and awkward, whereas mine is beautiful and elegant.

you however have nothing to explain how it all began

Neither have you. Inventing spurious "explanations" does not, in my book, come under the heading of "having something to explain how it all began" (I supppose your "it" conveniently excludes God...)

once again we get the where did God come from tactic,

This is not a tactic. It's a straightforward question which has been justifiably asked by millions of eight-year-olds the world over. Yet not one of even the greatest theological thinkers can answer it. You don't get off the hook by claiming that a child's innocent question is some kind of underhand tactic!

when you know that the biblical teaching is that he is eternal and is spirit,and so not complex in terms of his being.

Non-sequitur par excellence, amigo.

so bring forth your evidence for Gods non existence,or maybe retreat to a position that admits that there is just not enough evidence to satisfy you!

Nah, you lot started it. You provide the evidence to support your assertion. I'm just here letting your religious stuff wash over me. Unfortunately, I seem to be covered in vaseline, so none of it sinks in.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: John P
Date: 11 May 13 - 12:52 AM

Steve, what's that definition of insanity again?
Proverbs 26:4

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 May 13 - 04:29 AM

"everyday laws of physics" steve? despite ploughing through an admittedly difficult article on wiki about chemical evolution it was apparent to me that despite numerous models, pasteurs confidence in his work finally discounting abiogenesis remains well founded.maybe you can do better steve?
and while you are about it demonstrate the needed increase in information supposedly arising from mutations.last i heard loss and reshuffling are about the sum of it. maybe you can do better than dawkins who was stumped by the question,eventually only giving an evasive answer.
after that you can tell me again that there is no evidence for a maker and designer?.

john-psalm 14 v 1

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 11 May 13 - 05:57 AM

I guess it's comforting to think of ID & creators rather than face the reality of existence which is far from wondrous - but rather desolate and utterly hostile. The wellspring of religion is not just fear of death, but the innate fear of nature at its most rancid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ritaljhhk7s

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 11 May 13 - 07:46 AM

Ii cannot believe this!!! Not content with plagarism from books.now you saddos are actually quoting each other!!
This really is the giddy end.
What a complete waste of time and energy.
You would all be better employed teaching JerkThe Sailor the differance between port and starboard..Nah.....that means actually thinking and researching yer subject.that is without paraphrasing some else

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 13 - 09:51 AM

That's right, John. It depends on what mood I'm in. Pete's posts are all incredibly foolish without fail. But I've decided to be patient and civil but only sometimes, if you get my drift. Now, on to his latest stuff 'n' nonsense...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 13 - 10:10 AM

"everyday laws of physics" steve? despite ploughing through an admittedly difficult article on wiki about chemical evolution it was apparent to me that despite numerous models, pasteurs confidence in his work finally discounting abiogenesis remains well founded.maybe you can do better steve?

I suggest you stick to sentences of eight words or fewer. That lot is a stream of inane and unconnected ideas. I'm wrestling with two things here: how you of all people can claim to have ploughed through a scientific article (read "Origin" yet, have we?), and what Louis Pasteur has to do with it. Can I do better than him? Well, I'm told he was a lousy harmonica player...

and while you are about it demonstrate the needed increase in information supposedly arising from mutations.last i heard loss and reshuffling are about the sum of it.

You don't get this stuff, pete, as you have oft been told. Let's just say that a mutation giving rise to a novelty is, indeed, "new information" for natural selection to get its teeth into. It wasn't there before, it's genetic "information" so it's new information. It's in addition to the "old information" that's still there, so it's all part of a process of accumulating "information". I mean, surely a man who can plough through a difficult article on chemical evolution should be able to see that? heheh. You clearly do not understand the concept of accumulation over long periods of beneficial mutations. Of course, you wouldn't would you, as you believe that the world began just a little while before Noah and his ark.   

maybe you can do better than dawkins who was stumped by the question,eventually only giving an evasive answer.

I commend any of Dawkins's best-known books as a good read on genetics for the intelligent layperson. There is no evasion because there is no need for evasion. Give me your specific source for any of his "evasions" and I'll happily demolish you.

after that you can tell me again that there is no evidence for a maker and designer?.

Absolutely not a scrap. You're worse than those God Of The Gaps fellows: you insert God even where there's no gap.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 May 13 - 11:25 AM

Let the Mystery Be
Iris DeMent
Everybody's wonderin' what and where they all came from.
Everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go when the whole thing's done.
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.

Some say once you're gone you're gone forever, and some say you're gonna come back.
Some say you rest in the arms of the Saviour if in sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they're comin' back in a garden, bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.

Some say they're goin' to a place called Glory and I ain't saying it ain't a fact.
But I've heard that I'm on the road to purgatory and I don't like the sound of that.
Well, I believe in love and I live my life accordingly.
I choose to let the mystery be.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 May 13 - 07:19 PM

Ebbie, I think that "Let the Mystery Be" is the most theologically profound song I have ever heard. I've heard people call it shallow, but I think people with that perspective and those who feel bound to legalize or intellectualize or criticize so many things that to me are so wonderful.

I like living a life filled with mystery and awe and wonder. I hope I never lose my habit of gazing and something wonderful and not being able to say more than simply, "Oh, wow!"

We don't have to be religious to live life filled with mystery and awe. We just have to hold onto the ability to find joy in all the beauty that surrounds us. May we protected, from becoming jaded.

Let the mystery be.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 13 - 07:28 PM

Very nice song (which I haven't heard sung, admittedly), but this line is a total copout:

Some say they're goin' to a place called Glory and I ain't saying it ain't a fact.

Why ain't she sayin' it? Well I'm sayin' it ain't a fact. I'm sayin' it's a bunch of unsupportable speculation. That's the whole trouble with these pop singers who turn "philosophical": they tend to be naive. They have lived in a bubble. "Imagine", that much-lauded Lennon effort, is about as naive as it gets. Which isn't to say it can't do some good. But do let's see these things for the shallow stuff that they really are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 May 13 - 09:21 PM

I agree with you, Joe. I think the song says enough that it should bring an end to just about any disagreement on the subject.

I know what you mean, Steve Shaw, but I disagree; to me DeMent is clearly shrugging when she says that. She just chooses not to make it an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 May 13 - 09:25 PM

You know, Steve, a lot of very wise and learned and good people have found hope and comfort and maybe even motivation in believing in heaven. A lot of other very wise and learned and good people have not.

If belief in a dream that may not be true gives hope and comfort, what's wrong with that? When they find out for certain, all their suffering will be over - and no harm will have been done by the illusion that gave them comfort. Sometimes I think that the hard truth is highly overrated. I think that dreams, even unrealistic dreams, can often have far greater value than the truth.

Let people have a little mystery, a little dreaming, a little unrealistic idealism in their life - no matter whether it's true or not. Is heaven a fantasy? Maybe so - but it's a very nice fantasy, and it often gives comfort to those who are suffering. As another very interesting song says, "Don't Rain on my Parade."

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 May 13 - 09:36 PM

I guess I feel that when I die, I'm "Goin' Home" - even if that "home" is the earth from whence I came....where there will be no more tears, no more suffering. (Revelation 21:4)


And although atheists may find it insulting to be compared with fundamentalist Christians, that's where fundamentalist Christians and militant atheists come together - in their insistence on certainty, in their insistence on their being in possession of the Truth. If atheists are insulted by my grouping them with fundamentalist Christians, keep in mind that I as a progressive Christian am also insulted by being grouped with fundamentalists. I believe in uncertainty - but also in possibility. Certainty is so limiting. I prefer to dream.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 11 May 13 - 10:26 PM

Without pointing out that Ms. Dement's melodies haven't changed much in 20 years, I will offer that, from a theological perspective, I think these two women contributed had more interesting speculations.

One of Us

What I Am

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 May 13 - 12:05 AM

Well, I've always liked Edie Brickell's "What I Am." Can't say Joan Osborne's "One of Us" does much for me, although it's interesting. Both songs take a rather depressing view of things. I think I'll stick with the awe and wonder and mystery. Makes for a happier life, I think. You and the fundamentalists can stick with the negative stuff, Stim.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 May 13 - 12:41 AM

Are both those songs acquired tastes? At my age I don't have enough time...

Sorry. I would have to read the lyrics to see whether I like either of those songs.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 May 13 - 01:37 AM

Joe;I've never heard either of them as being depressing--one song embraces the sense of wonder and rejects over-intellectualization, the other suggests that the human experience is the most important thing. And what makes you think I like being lumped in with the fundamentalists any better than you do?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 May 13 - 01:39 AM

I do like the snake-handlers, though...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 May 13 - 01:47 AM

This is a music forum, Stim. Feel free to post the lyrics and explain how they're positive. I don't see any awe and wonder in God being a slob like us.
Well, maybe I AM a bit of a slob....


I do like Edie Brickell's idea that "what I am is what I am" - and that I'm not here to live up to anybody's expectations. And I did happen to notice that Edie Brickell was outrageously beautiful at the time that video was made....

-Joe-

P.S. I don't think anybody likes being compared to fundamentalists...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 13 - 06:36 AM

If belief in a dream that may not be true gives hope and comfort, what's wrong with that? When they find out for certain, all their suffering will be over - and no harm will have been done by the illusion that gave them comfort... Sometimes I think that the hard truth is highly overrated.

I was careful to balance my criticism of the lyrics with mention of another song that invites us (naively) to imagine the very opposite. I don't think it's necessary to imagine one thing or the other. The hard truth you refer to is, of course, obstinately there (that's truth for you, if you believe in the concept, which I do), but it's hard truth, not harsh truth. The truth about life, existence and the universe is far more wonderful and complete (though not, enticingly, utterly complete for us as yet) than any insupportable imaginings. Imagine all you like but let your imaginings lead to a quest for truth. Not you personally. I can assure you that there is no emptiness, no gaping hole, in shunning matters mystical and wallowing in the extraordinarily ordinary stuff around us. If I snuff it before the missus she has strict instructions to throw my ashes upwards on a breezy day. That way I'll go back to being stardust a tad more quickly. What an honour!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 May 13 - 06:40 AM

ok steve - firstly are you saying that you have not seen the video?
assuming that you have not and are not rather trying to bait me;-
i dont know how to do links, but if you look on you tube for   richard dawkins stumped by creationist question, you will witness him giving the same kind of assertions as you give.this is after a long silence.he did not answer the question.maybe you can point me to something[other than a complete book!]where he does give the examples asked for.maybe you can?
"what has pasteur got to do withit" oh - was it someone else who conducted experiments that established that life only come from life?
i suspect that i ploughed through more of origins than you have read of any creationist writings[by fully qualified scientists!]

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 13 - 07:28 AM

Any "qualified scientist" that issues creationist writings ought to be immediately defrocked.

Life only comes from life - yep. Except, one fine day, billions of years ago, it all got started from non-life. I say it happened following the known laws of nature (though exactly how is an intriguingly interesting matter yet to be resolved). You say that some complex superbeing, for whom we have no evidence, kicked it off. Or something. Or was it just before Noah. Trouble is, I'm digging and you're guessing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 13 - 09:35 AM

Back to this for a minute.

...that's where fundamentalist Christians and militant atheists come together - in their insistence on certainty, in their insistence on their being in possession of the Truth.

This has been refuted so many times here that I'm amazed that you could even think of bringing it up again. I don't know any of these atheists you refer to who are in possession of certainty. Certainly not me nor Richard Dawkins. And if moderate Christians, as opposed to fundamentalists, revel in uncertainty, then tell me why they acquiesce in the certainties expressed in so many of their hymns and prayers. Why don't they show a bit more spine and come up with more honest alternatives that truly represent their claimed uncertainty? You could start with "Our Father, who art in heaven..."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans sin
Date: 12 May 13 - 10:12 AM

No such thing as a creationist scientist. You can explore creationism from a scientific angle I suppose but of course you would find the idea wanting.

This thread started with claiming, somewhat silly, that telling religious types to keep their hobby to themselves is a hobby in its own right. Very clever and very circular. Judging by your own standards is the more sanctimonious side of those who assert a view.

Joe is right in saying people don't like to be called fundamentalist and I see the point. However, belief surely requires a mental leap beyond logic and that in itself lends itself to a fundamental view. Anything less questions your overall Creed. I suspect that we mean saliva throwing Bible thumping bigotry when we say fundamental yet asserting tales as true requires what? Rational thought?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 May 13 - 03:53 PM

One of Us
Joan Osbourne

If God had a name, what would it be
And would you call it to his face
If you were faced with him in all his glory
What would you ask if you had just one question

And yeah yeah God is great yeah yeah God is good
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home

If God had a face what would it look like
And would you want to see
If seeing meant that you would have to believe
In things like heaven and in jesus and the saints and all the prophets

And yeah yeah god is great yeah yeah god is good
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home
He's trying to make his way home
Back up to heaven all alone
Nobody calling on the phone
Except for the pope maybe in rome

And yeah yeah God is great yeah yeah God is good
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

What if god was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home
Just trying to make his way home
Like a holy rolling stone
Back up to heaven all alone
Just trying to make his way home
Nobody calling on the phone
Except for the pope maybe in rome

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 May 13 - 04:35 PM

If there is a God, then he/it is *everyone* of us on the bus.