BS: Militant atheism has become a religion

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 02:46 PM

>>>If you must quote out of context, try to fit in the bits where I state I do not see myself as an atheist.<<<

It is not the one or two times you have said that that gets to the truth of the matter it is all the time that you inadvertently admit to being an atheist.

>>>Atheists can be spotted by their ability to tell people how to raise kids.<<<<

I say that you and Steve are trying to tell people how to raise their kids. You generalize that to all atheists and include yourself.

YOU brought up the term atheist in this thread. You and Steve have been doing this all along in many of the threads, where I have been trying to stick to "Neo-atheist, New-atheist or Dawkins, Mr Shaw and Musket.

>>where I state I do not see myself as an atheist<< you haven't been paying close attention, I've implied that the three of you are hypocrites for doing this a few times.

Put is this way. If it walks like an atheist, it talks like an atheist, it defends the idea of being an atheist and it takes it personally when atheists are insulted....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 04:38 PM

Having read Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, and Dennett it is my opinion that the only major thing that they have in common is wanting to protect their ability to speak their minds on this subject. When they do this, however, they are charged with being "militant" because religious people have been telling non-believers for years to just shut up. Those days are gone.

A religion has to have adherents that fundamentally agree on many points. Atheists don't do that. They think for themselves. I think this is an ideal goal in raising children. There may be some atheists who try to indoctrinate their children with their ideas, but this is not the usual case. Some atheists have gone so far as to allow their children to go to Sunday School just to see what it is or to take them to a church service for their education.

"Militant" is used as a pejorative that means angry or aggressive. The two terms are not necessarily together in meaning. One can be aggressive without rancor but the idea to use "militant" is a device to discredit atheists and their respective non-belief.

Even if Atheism were a religion (which it is not) hypothetically, it would have encountered the most vicious form of religious intolerance equivalent to Mosque burning, Temple desecration or Sikh shooting. For this reason, I am thankful that atheism is not a religion although there are too many religious fanatics that treat it this way.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 08:40 PM

A religion has to have adherents that fundamentally agree on many points. Atheists don't do that. They think for themselves. I think this is an ideal goal in raising children. There may be some atheists who try to indoctrinate their children with their ideas, but this is not the usual case. Some atheists have gone so far as to allow their children to go to Sunday School just to see what it is or to take them to a church service for their education.

Agreed. also, any "atheist" who tries to indoctrinate their children with their notions is not an atheist. There can be be no certainty in atheism (unlike religion), so indoctrination is not an option. Our children went to schools which were not faith schools but which abided by the law of the land in providing acts of "daily worship". We could have withdrawn our kids from those lessons, but we thought it far better to let them not stand out from the crowd (no-one else withdrew their kids) and provide the counterbalance at home. They are, now in their thirties, both free thinkers and both are atheists with no pressure whatsoever from us. I tend to think that they're the lucky ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 09:11 PM

"A religion has to have adherents that fundamentally agree on many points. Atheists don't do that."

You two are doing that now!

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: olddude
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 09:17 PM

Strings
until I got pissed off a little while ago and started an atheist thread, it was no person of faith that told anyone here how to believe or what to believe. The never ending attacks on faith here in mudcat is coming from a few atheists. And in fact are trying to tell others what they can believe or not believe. It is the exact opposite as what you just said. Now as far as my rights to speech, atheism is indeed a religion to many. They want to try and tell others what they can and cannot say. I am no religious zealot. But religious zealots too can speak their opinions and not just atheists as some would love to see happen. Freedom of speech does indeed go both ways

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 02:38 AM

I seem to be lumped into some virtual gang that is attacking religion. Sorry old dude, I can't see many examples of that. From anyone.

Now.. attacking the idea that religion has a place in society at large I will question. Attacking the idea that somebody's delusion should have an effect on me I will question. Being told my concerns are straw men I will question. Seeing religious privilege masquerading as religiosity freedom I will question.

When I call it nonsense and refer to imaginary friends and comfort blankets, when I point out the bizarre sense of justification it gives to controlling others, when I see it getting legal rights here in The UK to subjugate women and gay people, when I point outthat the little boy has a point and I too fail to see clothes on the emperor. I am expressing an opinion.

So when my opinion is given labels in order to either scorn or pity, it doesn't exactly make me wonder if I may be wrong in some way. I often alter my view on matters after debate, in fact I see it as part of my professional life, but the fascination with seeing lackof bbelief as a belief says more about the instability of faith than it does about rational thought.

Live and let live. Something the door knockers and Lords Spiritual haven't quite got the hang of.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 09:11 AM

The never ending attacks on faith here in mudcat is coming from a few atheists. And in fact are trying to tell others what they can believe or not believe.

Find me one example, with quote please, of any atheist here "telling" people what they can or can't believe. Go on, you have acres of threads to choose from. It should be plenty easy enough for you to support this assertion of yours. Go on - put up or...

Now as far as my rights to speech, atheism is indeed a religion to many.

Well, apart from your sentence containing a classic non-sequitur, we've been over (and debunked comprehensively) the myth of atheism being "a religion" so many times. Bringing it up in this manner yet again is nothing more than a lazy, cheap shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 09:20 AM

Incidentally, if you really want to find people who tell people what to believe, you'll find them in droves the world over in churches, synagogues, mosques and faith schools. Telling you to believe that myth is truth and you'd better not argue. Starting, unfailingly, with tiny children far too young to understand what they are being told to believe (catch 'em young, eh, or don't catch 'em at all...?). It's actually laughable that a Christian should be accusing atheists that it's us who perpetrate anything near equivalent to this egregiously immoral activity. Cast out the beam, say I.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 10:48 AM

"Pride is pleasure arising from a man's thinking too highly of himself."

"Further conceive, I beg, that a stone, while continuing in motion, should be capable of thinking and knowing, that it is endeavoring, as far as it can, to continue to move. Such a stone, being conscious merely of its own endeavor and not at all indifferent, would believe itself to be completely free, and would think that it continued in motion solely because of its own wish. This is that human freedom, which all boast that they possess, and which consists solely in the fact, that men are conscious of their own desire, but are ignorant of the causes whereby that desire has been determined."

Both quotes, Baruch Spinoza

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 02:47 PM

Mayomick when you say "I'm not sure if I could have the same debates today as I did thirty years ago." I think this may be true. You can see the insults and brickbats that have flown on this discussion already.

Musket, excellent point. "but the fascination with seeing lack of belief as a belief says more about the instability of faith than it does about rational thought."

It is absolutely delusional which is a by-product of a shaky "faith". It's because those accusations reflect a need to verify that "faith" by the folks who make them. Shakespeare said, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." which has been changed to "Methinks thou dost protest too much" to refer to those on a soap box whose actions belie their intended claims and try too hard to convince others that they are right. It backfires in most cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 07:34 PM

I suppose I could have posted this in one of the Maggie threads, but it contains much that is relevant here. I apologise for my lack of ability to do proper links on this website. You'll just have to copy and paste.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2013/apr/12/margaret-thatcher-doubt-wimps-human

Giles Fraser, a man of the cloth par excellence, is one of the very few believers who consistently expresses his faith in a way I can truly respect. This is an excellent article, scathing about Thatcher's apparent religious certainties and explicit about how true faith cannot have certainties. An awful lot of religion's millions of proselytisers could learn much from him. Here's an excoriating analysis of Thatcher faith, and, unfortunately, it's a brand of faith that is all too common and which is grist to the mill of the Dawkinses (and Shaws, Jack) of this world:

For her, Christianity was all about being on the side of what is right. It was a moralistic version of Christianity that, when crossed with a Samuel Smiles philosophy of self-help, would inoculate her against doubt and criticism. Thus she wore her indifference to objection as a badge of pride. That was what she meant by faith.

And how about this for a novel and focussed definition of faith that will prickle a believer or two:

But what she never appreciated was that faith is fundamentally bound up with doubt. Faith strains to imagine a world so much more expansive than the measure of our own minds and convictions. This is why faith is always a certain sort of loss, the failure to comprehend things in their totality. Faith is the confession of a failed atheism, the suspicion of a constant remainder to the neat equations of life. It begins with an ineradicable "I do not know", continually straining to make raids into this unknowable, continually returning with the wisdom gained by another fresh defeat.

But read the thing. It isn't long, and I have no wish to be accused of quoting out of context.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 11:42 AM

Dan, I didn't get that atheists were telling anyone how to think. That's an impossibility.
They were criticizing religion with an attempt at logic in their diagnosis. Sometimes, this is unachievable but attacking someone's faith is impossible as long as those who proclaim it are really devout and sincere. Then, instead of reacting in a violent way, they should merely shrug their shoulders and say "that's your opinion" instead going after them because their feelings were hurt.

The idea that atheism has become a religion doesn't make sense because you can't be religious and non-religious at the same time. It's an oxymoron.

"Atheists" is probably not the best term to describe non-belief. They (atheists?) may agree on many points but not all in the absolutist sense that many religionists do. They don't have a bible, koran, torah, baghavad ghita or any holy book upon with which to base their ideas. Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett, Rand, Marx or anyone else who uses the term to define their point of view of non-belief represent no great community of "believers" as do the adherents to religion. To say otherwise is a distorted lie.

It's true that Ayn Rand has a coterie. Marx through Lenin established a government but both are reputed "atheists" and they don't agree on anything. It's only because new ideas about the negative aspects of religion are being revealed, not by "prophecy" but by individuals who write books on the subject that these ideas engender hostility instead of consideration, acceptance or rejection.

I will always respect and admire people who are kind, socially conscious, not given to picking fights, open to ideas for examination and reflect the loving that Christians often preach about but never practice. That is very much in evidence here on Mudcat.

The insults and brickbats in the final analysis are meaningless. As Joe Offer said, it's how you behave in society, what you do to improve society, how you act in your personal life and as EdT implied, how you are not just tolerant but understanding of another's point of view, but I add, not having to agree with it and be able to express that disagreement in a logical, communicative and forthright way, this is more important then wound licking because someone disagrees with your ideas.

As I said, before, talk is cheap. To walk the walk is harder but ultimately the most important.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 05:36 PM

" Freedom of speech does indeed go both ways." I agree Dan and I hope that the ensuing discussions will honor that fact. I am not going to tell anyone what to believe. That's an "inalienable right" in our US Constitution. Remember Dan, when we discuss ideas, ideologies or religion or non-religion this (at least on my part) is not an attempt to disrespect anyone personally. I try to stick to the issue and not insult someone who doesn't agree with me. That's the only rational way to have a conversation.

There are those who react emotionally, passionately and take things personally. The preferred way to discuss in my opinion is to try to see the other's point-of-view and discuss that without insults, invectives or hurt feelings. Only then, can you have an adult conversation.

The problem with America today is that the art of conversing this way has become an endangered species. People don't know how to talk to one another anymore. Because of the political climate we live in we have "talking points" where pundits are trying to keep score rather than understand another's point of view. They act as a model on discourse because so many people see this on TV talk shows and pseudo news broadcasts.

So essentially, I agree with you Dan and would rather generate light than heat.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 06:21 PM

Not so fast there sir! You can't use the lack of a book to follow as a difference.

They don't have a bible, koran, torah, baghavad ghita or any holy book upon with which to base their ideas. Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett, Rand, Marx

Dawkins followers have "The God Delusion"
Hitchen's "God is not Great"
Rand "Altas Shrugged", "The Fountainhead" and a number of "non-fiction" polemics
Marx-the Communist Manifesto and enough writings on Communism to fill a small library.

I know Harris and Dennett have books. I just don't know what the names are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 06:49 PM

"There are those who react emotionally, passionately and take things personally. The preferred way to discuss in my opinion is to try to see the other's point-of-view and discuss that without insults, invectives or hurt feelings. Only then, can you have an adult conversation."

OK Stringsinger, It is my point of view that when you repeat things like

"God is a delusion", "
"Faith can be very very dangerous, and deliberately to implant it into the vulnerable mind of an innocent child is a grievous wrong."

you are insulting a group to which you know I belong, you know Dan belongs to that group as well, and therefor you are insulting me (and Dan)

In my opinion this whole thread has been about whether The new atheists and two people on this forum are being intentionally insulting when you say those things.

I refuse to have a conversation with you ABOUT RELIGION if you are in accord with those two statements. I believe they are childish, insulting and semantically wrong.

Those two statements are in my opinion, the foundation of fundamentalist atheism. They are Richard Dawkins' dogma and not moderate in any way.

My question to you is simple do you accept Dawkins' dogma or do you want as you put it "an adult conversation?"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 09:18 PM

OK Stringsinger, It is my point of view that when you repeat things like

"God is a delusion", "
"Faith can be very very dangerous, and deliberately to implant it into the vulnerable mind of an innocent child is a grievous wrong."

you are insulting a group to which you know I belong, you know Dan belongs to that group as well, and therefor you are insulting me (and Dan)

Hmm. Well Stringsinger is a far less abrasive fellow than I am, and it's my bet that he never sets out to insult anyone. However, he speaks truthfully when he says that it is wrong to implant faith in the mind of a child. Let me put these questions to you, and to anyone else who thinks it's fine to bring up children in your particular faith:

*Do you not accept that your child is born into your religion by nothing more than accident of birth?

*Do you think that a tiny child can possibly understand the complexities and the implications of the religion you are bringing him up in?

*Do you think that your religion is the one true religion?...

*...If not, what gives you the right to bring up your child in your particular religion and not another one?...

*...if so, on what do you base your certainty (taking into account that inconvenient accident of birth) that you are right to indoctrinate your child (bearing in mind that indoctrination relies on the certainty you appear to possess)?

*Why do you not simply satisfy yourself that education (in the true sense of the word) in comparative religion and the history of religion is perfectly sufficient for your child until he reaches an age at which he can decide to accept, or reject, your particular faith of choice? What are you afraid of?

*Did you have your child christened? If so, how do you justify that? And how do you feel about having a child that was a "Christian child" from the time when they couldn't yet speak, think or even focus their eyes? Was that really fair? Why didn't you wait until they were old enough to decide whether they wanted to be a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist, or none of the above? What's your excuse? And again, what were you afraid of?

*Did you send your child to a faith school at which you knew they would be herded off to services and force-fed prayers and hymns containing certainties about what might very well be no more than myths? If so, why did you choose that school and not a school with proper secular values?

*Can you, in all conscience, making every effort to be honest and true to yourself, fail to confront a single one of these questions?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 10:20 PM

It is the parent's responsibility to raise the children Mr. Shaw. Children WANT to emulate their parents.
It would be pretty alienating, I think if the parents were devout and hired a babysitter when they went to church.

*...If not, what gives you the right to bring up your child in your particular religion and not another one?

Because it is YOUR RELIGION AND YOUR Child. It is your right and responsibility. That's what Joe told you he did. He told you his kids turned out OK. How would a Christian parent even know how to raise a Hindu? Not to mention that the child might not even feel he belongs in the family.

And are you suggesting that Atheist parents sent their kids to Sunday School to see what "other religions" are out there or are do you just want to tell Christians how to raise their kids?

What gives YOU the right to tell other people how to raise their kids?

You do not appear to see our society for what it is. Would you seriously impose this on people? Would you say this to a young mother. How are you different from a protester in front of an abortion clinic? Are you LESS dogmatic? Are you less shrill? Are you less pushy?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:49 AM

Amen, Jack.   It appears you have Mr. Shaw well pegged.    "less shrill" is a nice touch.

Isn't it good to know that Mr. Shaw, the soul of tolerance and good feeling, will no doubt just let the thread die now without any retort?

We should all try to emulate his calm even-handedness.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 04:33 AM

"Marx-the Communist Manifesto and enough writings on Communism to fill a small library."
Marxism is not a religion, it is a socio/economic/politico/ theory, and to describe it otherwise is a typical lie of those who would continue with the practice of the enforced teaching of children by men and women of doubtful repute.
In the "small library's" worth of Marxist literature, religion features very small.      
The oft-quoted "opium of the people" was intended for the introduction of a work by Marx, 'A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right'; which was actually never written - the introduction alone was published in 1844 in Marx's own journal.
It is an continuing lie claim Marxism as "a religion", and it is a total distortion of the facts to say that Marx or any major writer devoted anything but a passing mention to religion other than as a tool of oppression.
On the other hand, the last Tzar of Russia, at the height of his power was heavily influenced by an insane Christian monk who is regarded by many in modern non-Communist Russia as saintly.

"Grigori Yefimovich Rasputin (Russian: Григорий Ефимович Распутин; IPA: [ɡrʲɪˈɡorʲɪj jɪˈfʲiməvʲɪtɕ rɐˈsputʲɪn]) (22 January [O.S. 10 January] 1869 – 29 or 30 December [O.S. 16 December] 1916) was a Russian mystic and advisor to the Romanovs, the Russian Imperial family. He was never officially connected to the Orthodox Church but considered a "strannik" (or pilgrim) wandering from cloister to cloister. He is even regarded as a starets (ста́рец, "elder", a title usually reserved for monk-confessors), believing him to be a psychic and faith healer.[1] He impressed many people with his knowledge and ability to explain the Bible in an uncomplicated way.
In 1907 Rasputin was invited for the first time by Tsar Nicholas II and Alexandra as a healer for their only son, Tsarevich Alexei, who suffered from hemophilia. It is supposed he became an influential figure in the later years of the Tsar's reign, especially after September 1915. It has been argued[2] that Rasputin helped to discredit the tsarist family, leading to the fall of the Romanov dynasty in February 1917. The Tsarina and her family saw Rasputin variously as a saintly mystic, visionary, healer and prophet but his enemies, as a debauched religious charlatan, heavily interested in sexual relations with his followers. There has been much uncertainty over Rasputin's life and influence, as accounts have often been based on dubious memoirs, hearsay and legend.[In Russia he is nowadays seen by many people and clerics, among them Elder Nikolay Guryanov as a righteous man"
I thought Christians were "seekers after truth - tut-tut
Jim Carroll

Some facts about Marxism and religion from, a pamphlet I picked up when I was working as an electrician at the Humanist Society headquarters in London.

"The founder and primary theorist of Marxism, the nineteenth century German sociologist Karl Marx, had an ambivalent attitude to religion, viewing it primarily as "the opium of the people" that had been used by the ruling classes to give the working classes false hope for millennia, while at the same time recognizing it as a form of protest by the working classes against their poor economic conditions. In the end, Marx rejects religion.
In the Marxist-Leninist interpretation of Marxist theory, developed primarily by Russian revolutionary Vladimir Lenin, religion is seen as negative to human development, and socialist states that follow a Marxist-Leninist variant are atheistic and explicitly antireligious. Due to this, a number of Marxist-Leninist governments in the twentieth century, such as the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China, implemented rules introducing state atheism. However, several religious communist groups exist, and Christian communism was important in the early development of communism."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:31 AM

I had my children christened. I support local traditions and older family felt more comfortable with it.

It doesn't make them Christians. They couldn't speak and ga goo isn't exactly informed consent.

Another local tradition is Morris dancing. Those who introduce their children to that tradition don't to my knowledge say their kids buy into ancient fertility and harvest assurance.

Kids want to emulate their parents. Hence be careful what gets hard wired into them. My lads are as trapped as I am in supporting a football team that doesn't offer much in terms of success but they like me are trapped anyway.

Same with religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: mayomick
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:46 AM

Dan, I didn't get that atheists were telling anyone how to think. That's an impossibility. ....stringsilver

What Stringsilver wrote about the impossibility of telling people how to think is right .But telling people how to think is what some people claiming to be atheists are doing here. I'm not sure who it was said that he was proud he taught his kids how to think , and not what to to think .
Muskett wrote above :
"It is seeing religious equality turning into religious privilege and that is worth resisting by intelligent people who prefer to be taught how to think rather than what to think".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:58 AM

Because it is YOUR RELIGION AND YOUR Child. It is your right...

Well, by that logic it would be no-one's business but yours if you decided to bring up your child in a religion that demanded they be sacrificed to the gods at 14, or that your daughter should undergo genital mutilation at some point during her childhood. I am saying that (without shrill, the attribution of which quality anyone who knows me personally would find laughable), by telling your children that God is true and is a huge exception to the need to apply critical thinking and the demand for evidence, you are potentially damaging them intellectually just as much as sacrifices and mutilations damage them physically. This is a challenge to you that you can't just shrug off by saying it's my kid and I'll do what I like. When they grow up, your kids go into bigger society and that affects far more people than you, them and your family. And don't tell me that a religious upbringing is a benign thing when you live in a country in which almost half the population deny evolution, in which near-lunatics with a cockeyed religious message receive mass adulation, in which abortion doctors live in fear of their lives thanks to religious zealotry and in which a President can publicly invoke God in justification for starting a criminal war. Not so benign, and you don't get off the hook by saying that you brought up your kid that way and, because of your interventions, they survived. The obvious riposte to that is , why did you put them through it in the first place? Why didn't you ,from the outset, educate them to be free thinkers? Yeah, your child, your right. Your child has rights too, and one of the key ones is the right to education. Last time I looked, that didn't mean some education with big exceptions. Telling your child that evidence-innocent mythology is truth (and that people who tell you otherwise are simply being shrill, or militant, or something like that) is no part of education by any definition I've ever seen. In fact, it's anti-education.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 06:21 AM

I had my children christened. I support local traditions and older family felt more comfortable with it.

Well I refused to allow my two to be christened and I met with huge condemnation from certain quarters in my family (they're in their 30s now and I still receive criticism to this day). They both attended religious instruction lessons at their (non-faith) schools, the law of the land (we could have withdrawn them, but that would have made them into outcasts in the eyes of their peers - another non-benign effect of faith...) Your point about supporting local tradition is harder to counter by us atheists. We don't have clubs or churches, unlike big religion. I allowed my son and daughter to join the Cubs and Brownies, which at the time started their weekly proceedings with an enforced bout of head-bowing. Religion survives by existing as a not-so-benign tumour inextricably bonded to society. That is deliberate, and it wouldn't survive any other way. I can't be dishonest and sit here pretending that good things can't sometimes come from this, but there are plenty of bad things possible as well, intellectual stunting being one such. My children were exposed to religion but were never of it. They always knew that they could decide to have themselves christened when they grew up. It is an option that neither took up. Am I pleased? I don't give a damn. What adults do in that regard is their business, their right. Get it, Jack?

It doesn't make them Christians. They couldn't speak and ga goo isn't exactly informed consent.

Maybe not, but you made an awful lot of promises on their behalf.

Another local tradition is Morris dancing. Those who introduce their children to that tradition don't to my knowledge say their kids buy into ancient fertility and harvest assurance.

False analogy. Morris dancing is peripheral to society in a way that religion never is. No-one is going to excommunicate you, ostracise you or threaten you with hellfire if you give up morris dancing. There is no holy book or body of theology attached to morris dancing. You don't have to deny evidence in order to be a morris dancer. Practising morris dancing does not tie you to ancient fertility, etc. Maybe you need a slightly better analogy, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 06:26 AM

Amen, Jack.   It appears you have Mr. Shaw well pegged.    "less shrill" is a nice touch.

Isn't it good to know that Mr. Shaw, the soul of tolerance and good feeling, will no doubt just let the thread die now without any retort?

We should all try to emulate his calm even-handedness.

Well, it's a good job we don't all emulate your penchant for lashing out in your posts without adding a shred of substantive content.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 08:21 AM

Shaw I'm putting you in the intentionally rude column. But that is not news, four anyone that actually knows you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:05 AM

Really, Jacko? Are you in charge of something around here none of us knows about?

The questions I put cannot be answered by people like you and Ron hurling snide comments back. Those are simply the mark of people who are afraid to face up to some awkward realities. You bring up your kids to believe in something for which there is no evidence, yet for which there is a whole lifestyle and intellectual frame of reference attached, then you should be ready, conscience clear, to answer those questions. Not to me. I don't give a damn if you can't, or won't, answer the questions, but, if you don't, or hedge around, conclusions about your integrity may well be drawn. The way we bring up and educate our children is far too important a matter for it to be absolutely no-one's business save mummy's and daddy's. One day those children will be running the planet. It's abundantly clear that people running the planet who are encumbered by religion have done a massive amount of damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:41 AM

"The questions I put cannot be answered by people like you and Ron hurling snide comments back."

The questions you put are insane unrealistic jabberings of a dyed in the wool brainwashed Dawkinsist. There are no realistic answers.

Relax. Millions of people are raising their kids with their own values. That is the way parenthood works. That is the way it will always work. Christians get to raise their kids with their values. Argumentative individual who think a glass of liquor is Heaven and a paper cut is Hell raise their kids with their values. All kids get "indoctrinated". They learn a lot more from what you do and say in life than what some preacher or some rude pop science author tells them.

Kids will find their own way, in this information rich society it is inevitable.

"Really, Jacko? Are you in charge of something around here none of us knows about? "

I did not say I was in charge or anything of the kind. I am sorry that I have upset you to the point of childish name calling and shrill hyperbole, again. Calm down. But realize that I asked the question of Stringsinger. You would not be so upset if you had not butted in.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:49 AM

I said near the beginning of this this thread that I thought that your behavior and Musket's reminded me of some of the behaviors described in the article. I am pleased to inform you that Steve in particular has confirmed this suspicion way beyond my expectations.

I also came to the conclusion that Dawkins is way too unscientific and way to rude to be a spokesperson for rational thought. I think that Dr. de Waal is much more reasonable and much less biased.

Please forgive me for all of the things I have said that may have given offense and please forgive me for not having the interpersonal skills to draw this to a close sooner.

God Bless you all and good fortune to all who think that was an empty gesture.

I don't have anything else to say on this topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:57 AM

Back in the Crusade business, the so-called moderate wing of Mudcat is intent on trashing the books of atheists who don't agree on ideas.

Instead of analyzing the books in a creative way, the detractors claim that their feelings are hurt and are victims instead of curtailing the judgments and invectives hurled out of a pseudo-self defense. There are no "insane unrealistic jabberings of a dyed in the wool brainwashed Dawkinsist". This is just another ad hominem to keep the discussion closed in some way by trashing those with which the pseudo-moderates don't agree.

This is by no means moderation but an attempt to smear others as part of the religious tradition of bullying.

Religious bullies

Sam Harris has written a book titled "The End of Faith" and "Letters To A Christian Nation"
Dan Dennett's recent book is called "Breaking the Spell".

I would strongly suggest that you read some of these books before casting aspersions on them. Then we would have something to really talk about. Also, read Dawkins' book(s)
as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:59 AM

The questions you put are insane unrealistic jabberings of a dyed in the wool brainwashed Dawkinsist. There are no realistic answers.

Because they are too awkward for you?

All kids get "indoctrinated".

Oh no you don't, old chap. There you go again with a back-door attempt to equate faith with non-faith. My kids were not indoctrinated in any way (which isn't to say I never made any mistakes in bringing 'em up). Indoctrination is the sole preserve of people who deal in unsupportable certainty. I'm perfectly prepared to accept that there is a way of being a religious family in which children are not indoctrinated. But there are plenty more who do indulge.

They learn a lot more from what you do and say in life than what some preacher or some rude pop science author tells them.

Indeed. And what you do may include herding them to church and sticking them in a faith school.

Kids will find their own way, in this information rich society it is inevitable.

But Jack. You and your ilk have been doing things the same way, bringing up your kids to not question the tenets of faith, for thousands of years. The information age has been with us for hardly more than a generation out of all that time. Good job the information age came along to let you off your moral hook then, eh? Just carry on the same old way and google will sort your kids out then! Phew, what a philosophy!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 10:43 AM

Delusion may sound harsh at the personal level but if it quacks..

The word describes things perfectly in the same way as faith. If things religion dictates actually existed you would have no need for faith, hence the delusion is an important facet.

If delusion is insulting, how do you deal with asking for forgiveness for sinning or feeling not worthy being as a virtue? The bollocks that clergy deal out at the altar sometimes make delusion sound a little tame.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:55 PM

Your questions make a lot of assumptions about what people do that are not necessarily true, and beyond that, you assume that their choices have the same meaning to them as they do to you.

The questions that you ask, in addition to being leading and prejudicial, have an inquisitorial tone, which causes one to smilingly reflect that you haven't really gotten over that Catholic upbringing.

Beyond that, your questions have very little to do with either the way I've brought up my kids, or what any of us believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 07:30 PM

Your questions make a lot of assumptions about what people do that are not necessarily true, and beyond that, you assume that their choices have the same meaning to them as they do to you.

If my assumptions are not true then it shouldn't be too difficult for you to tell me how. But you haven't. As for choices, we are not talking about grown-ups making choices for themselves. We are talking about them making choices for their children before those children are old enough to make the choices for themselves. Well, that's parenting for you, but in the particular areas we're talking about here the danger is that of making a choice for them predicated on a blend of accident of birth and denial of evidence. That sounds quite serious to me. As far as I was able, I wanted my children to know what was true and how they could learn to verify truth for themselves, not have some unsupportable doctrine poured over them. I don't doubt for one second that many people of faith make those choices with the best possible intentions, but in no way does that guarantee their rectitude.

The questions that you ask, in addition to being leading and prejudicial, have an inquisitorial tone, which causes one to smilingly reflect that you haven't really gotten over that Catholic upbringing.

You are misusing the word "prejudicial". Selecting random pejorative adjectives does you no credit. My questions were not an opinion poll or drafted for a referendum. They are intended to be challenging to the mindset typical of millions of believers who feel rather safe in their cocoons of church/society. I suggested that you honestly confront them. But I'm not bothered if you won't, or can't, really. And your tired and lazy reference to my upbringing, which was probably as benign as Catholicism comes, is just desperate. Not something that thinking people need to resort to. There isn't much thinking beyond the spleen of your whole post, though, is there?   

Beyond that, your questions have very little to do with either the way I've brought up my kids, or what any of us believe.

Which sounds like denial to me. I'd love you to prove me wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 08:35 PM

If you were to spell out the ideas that you have a problem with, identify the religions groups that hold them, and then show us how those ideas cause problems when they are taught to children, then we might have something to talk about. The fact that you haven't done that seems to me to be just plain laziness.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Sammy the Skeptic
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:37 PM

Ah, Dude, you said

My questions were not an opinion poll or drafted for a referendum. They are intended to be challenging to the mindset typical of millions of believers who feel rather safe in their cocoons of church/society.

If you think that you are challenging millions of believers when you post anything here, you better have yer doc check your meds.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 12:48 AM

Stim is there a way to send u a message?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 02:53 AM

You can contact me through Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:00 AM

Bearded bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:40 AM

If you think that you are challenging millions of believers when you post anything here, you better have yer doc check your meds.

Indeed, but what you are challenging is the idea that these beliefs have any sort of objective currency and are somehow worthy of our respect. If people choose to believe that God favours them for believing in system of centuries old misanthropic horse-chocolate written by the loopy scribes of yore then that's their beeswax. Out here in the real world, the Earth turns on a godless axis and even the most militant Atheist must surely delight in the fact that we're all in this together, regardless of what lies & bullshit religion has been feeding us all these aeons.

Atheism is not a religion; it is the recognition of the objective, common reality we all share regardless. It is a lingering epiphany of liberation born of science, enquiry, and a true thirst for knowledge which ran us up such blind alleys centuries ago when we couldn't but look at a sunrise without ripping the guts out the nearest virgin by way of veneration. The religious find comfort in such blind alleys; they thrive in their foetid piss-reeking darkness, peering out in sanctimonious terror at the roaring highway of human progress in all its dynamic glory convinced that it's a highway to hell. Maybe it is at that; but there's no turning back...

(Please note: No offence at any single individual was intended during the composing of the above post. It was written in good humour in celebration of (as the poet said) the sheer sharp excellence we all of us share in simply being alive in the first place.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Sstim
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:33 AM

Murdoch.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 04:19 PM

If you were to spell out the ideas that you have a problem with, identify the religions groups that hold them, and then show us how those ideas cause problems when they are taught to children, then we might have something to talk about. The fact that you haven't done that seems to me to be just plain laziness.

If I'm lazy then you can't read English. I have done what you said so many times I'm sick of saying it. You are not teaching "ideas" to children. You are actually not teaching them at all. You are force-feeding children with the dogma that there is a true God and your instruction to those children is full of unsupportable certainty. You do this from the cradle right through childhood and adolescence, a far longer apprenticeship that even the finest lawyer or surgeon has to undergo. The more benign among your number may give your kids the intellectual get-outs that the preacher or faith school don't provide, but that little "may" in that sentence represents a massive copout, a huge denial. We end up with billions of people who believe in a particular god they were told to believe in that is no more than an accident of their birth, a ludicrous and very damaging position. And they are the people who, generation after generation, are shaping our world. And it doesn't work very well. I've said why many times before and you have my posts there if you want to find out. I strongly suspect you don't really want to. If you don't, then there is little point talking to me. Do your own regurgitating. I have far better things to do. If I sound annoyed it's because I'm fed up with you pretending to be a champion dimwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 04:21 PM

If you think that you are challenging millions of believers when you post anything here, you better have yer doc check your meds.

What makes you think I think that? And thanks for the insult, whoever you are. Do have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 04:42 PM

Steve, there are folks who are so indoctrinated that it may be impossible for them to think out of the box, so all they can do is react rather than respond rationally.

Blandiver, once more you've hit it out of the park! Your eloquence is like sweet music.

"Atheism is not a religion; it is the recognition of the objective, common reality we all share regardless."

I don't see how you can express it any more clearly than that.

There are militant everybodys and it's questionable that militancy on any subject can change anyone's mind.

Sometimes, militancy as in labor unions, is necessary when negotiations call for better working conditions. You might say Dr. King was militant when he lead the marches in Selma and beyond.

But I dispute the idea that Dawkins is militant. I find him reasonable, somewhat dispassionate except when it comes to Darwin and how the Creationists are attempting to destroy the scientific principle of evolution. Here, I applaud his militancy and it is not a religion but a critique of it. To talk about the "god delusion" is not especially militant but opening a conversation for those who can handle the subject without getting their backs up in reaction. Dawkins has had gentle debates and discussions with some of his friends who are vicars and religionists but at no time were the debates filled with invectives, hurt feelings,
insults and brickbats thrown like we've seen here.

If we use the term militant as a pejorative, then any writer who has something passionate to say could be labeled militant. The biblical Jesus was certainly militant and what could be more militant then the sadistic deity in the Old Testament?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 05:04 PM

If believers wish to resort to the cliche that those who disagree with them are militant, then I feel I might resort to a cliche meself, that they have something to feel incredibly insecure about. We should tell them that that is nothing better for giving you a solidly secure feeling than a dose of good, honest doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 05:45 PM

I am a Catholic and yet I respect Richard Dawkins for his work as an evolutionary biologist. He does have strong views regarding religion (of all descriptions) and, while I respect his views, in this area I disagree with him. In the same way I have learnt to respect the views some of the posters on this and other, related, threads. I don't always find myself in sympathy with Steve Shaw but I have found most of his recent posts consistent and reasonable and Blandiver expresses his views with a forceful clarity without being in any way offensive. Musket has indicated he only wants to take the piss so we are excused from giving any consideration to his posts.
There is a problem with certain religionists, among whom I would include pfss. And that is their belief that every word of the Bible is true and beyond dispute which means that they believe in killing adulterers and others proscribed in books of the Old Testament such as Leviticus. Fundamentalists of this kind, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or whatever, take an indefensible set in stone view of society and believe that society cannot move on, develop and, dare I say, evolve. There are atheists who actively attempt to rubbish religious faith (some post on this forum). Some might describe them as fundamentalists too.
The odd thing is that I have some wonderful friends of different faiths and no faith. We occasionally indulge in discussion regarding belief (usually after drink has been taken) but we are able to recognise and respect our differences without rancour. In fact such exchanges are frequently invigorating.
Most people of faith recognise that their faith goes beyond reason and the Catholic schools that I have first hand experience of teach children to love all people as themselves and to do good. The Commandments are a reasonable guide to living a decent life (yeah, you can ignore the first one - and the one about the sabbath if you like). The truth is that most aspects of religion are benign. The fundamentalist nutters are as much a threat to me as they are to non-believers. Those who use religion as an excuse to do evil have nothing to do with positive faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Sammy the Skeptic
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 06:37 PM

You said if yourself. Do you ever read your own posts?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 07:45 PM

Sammy the wotsit, millions of believers are millions of believers. A mindset typical of millions of believers, on the other hand, is one thing. The titchy little word "A" at the start of that sentence, shall we say, is your f*cking great big clue, n'est-ce pas? I haven't the time or inclination to go around challenging millions of different people but I don't mind challenging a common point of view, a typical mindset. People here challenge some of us for being atheists. That's fine. I can stand up to that confidently. I don't accuse them of challenging millions of individual atheists. They are challenging the atheistic mindset, of which I possess a fairly typical example. I'm really sorry I couldn't find some shorter words to use to explain this rather mundane and obvious distinction to you. I type and review my posts fairly carefully and you'll have to forgive me if I respond sarcastically to people like you who don't have the skill, the stamina or the inclination to read them properly. For anyone left here scratching their heads in puzzlement, this little piece of one of my posts is what our Sammy here erroneously thinks he's pinned me down on:   

They [my questions] are intended to be challenging to the mindset typical of millions of believers who feel rather safe in their cocoons of church/society.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:23 PM

Any clue as to who you are, Guest? Your conciliatory post makes a very good contribution to the conversation.

The truth is that most aspects of religion are benign.

Well I agree with this, to a point. My own Catholic upbringing was relatively benign in many respects. My slide away from conformity met with less resistance than that of some of my friends. I should also confess that I taught for seven years at a Catholic school, I took religious assemblies there and I got married in the Catholic church. I even taught RE in my first two years. The received wisdom of some of our bitter non-atheists here is that I should look back bitterly on that lot as though it was all a massive tragedy. Well it wasn't. It was a stage in my personal evolution (with all that that implies about what I've turned into. Pause for sarcasm...?) However, it isn't as simple as that. First, millions of people on the planet do not get the same opportunity as I had to slip gently away from faith. The Catholic church, as far as I can see, is far from being the worst offender in this regard. To generalise about religion's benign side being pre-eminent is a generalisation way too far for my liking, in spite of there being a lot of truth in it. There are people on this forum who would vigorously defend the way Christianity is presented in the UK who are some of the worst Islamophobes I've ever experienced. Yet they are Christians only by accident of birth, as are those Muslims only Muslims by accident of birth they hate so much. The radar is always set to pick up inconsistencies of that kind. I know from working as a teacher in a predominantly Muslim area of London that youthful rebellion in some devout Muslim families is a very different kettle of fish to similar situations in Christian households. I don't much like the smell of copout that accompanies the defence of how faith is presented to children, considering how it subsequently holds so many of them in lifelong thrall. Finally, yes, the effects of religion can be benign, are possibly mostly benign, as you say. But those are generally positive aspects of life that exist anyway to which faith has simply hitched its wagon. You can, and do, have goodness, consideration, charity and love thy neighbour entirely without faith. Atheism doesn't do quite so well in getting that nice (and generally but not necessarily always benign) sense of community cohesion. We don't have churches and groupings and I feel a bit jealous of that. At the end of it all, we still have to decide whether telling children that myth is truth (lying to them) is, in principle, the right thing to do. The alternative path may look a little rocky, what without those hitched wagons, but perhaps it's a lot fairer to the kids in the long run.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:40 PM

To clear up a small matter, though we married in the Church we did not have our children christened. This would normally have been considered a breach of the promises we made at the wedding, but we were given special dispensation, before the wedding, to bring up our children as we saw fit by feisty "Bishop Victor", Victor Guazzelli, a big man of the East End at the time. He took a lot of persuading. He occasionally visited the school and he once railed to the staff against the menace of "militant ex-Catholics". His intemperate verbal assault raised my hackles considerably and got me thinking about whether I was in the right camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
From: GUEST,Sammy the Skeptic
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 11:49 PM

So you actually still went to Church when you were a grown-up? and you needed to get "dispensations" from a Bishop to educate your children the way you wanted? Whose the sucker here?