BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 06:51 AM

"musket- of course the atheist can have morality without a law book , but what is his ultimate authority , and what is to stop that morality being variable?"

The point pete raises is an interesting one, as it can be difficult to for some to understand from where secular morality derives it's origin, integrity and foundation from if not handed down from a supreme being? In the modern world it might appear that secular society has abandoned wholesale any sense of moral direction as we slowly cower under the ever-increasing weight of the free market and it's anything goes approach to consumerism and disregard for any sort of common decency.

However, look closer and it becomes clear that there is a strong moral thread running through secular society, albeit one largely ignored by politicians, religious heads (often of the more fanatical ilk) and business leaders. It is present in the secular arts from painting to literature, in the way we look after our ill and vulnerable (the huge number of nameless, voiceless volunteers that give their time for others) and the concerns of the countless people debating on the internet every day.

Where did this moral code spring from? Many societies the world over have independently created moral codes that are very similar despite being separated by temporal and geographic location. This might indicate that as human beings we are predisposed towards certain traits, and these manifest themselves as laws such as "don't kill" or "don't steal". These universal laws are an expression of an innate morality that we all possess; religious texts of all creed are simply another manifestation of this instinct, and no religion can rightly claim to have been the wellspring for this wisdom.

There is no need to credit a supernatural being with creating a moral code which binds us as a species, as our ancestors originated it and we perpetuate it. The idea that anyone is less moral or has less moral authority because they are atheist is fundamentally wrong and rather patronising to say the least, as it suggests we are incapable, without help from a mythical third party, to create a basic and universal code of morality; however, we've done just that.

See, human beings are actually quite clever when they put their minds to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 07:46 AM

I don't have any "issues" with you or Ian, Dave.
I understand you both, perfectly.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 12:18 PM

I very much doubt that Ake. Anyone who can try to convince me that forcing medical procedures on people simply due to their sexual inclinations understands very little about me. Or about human rights.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 12:53 PM

stu- I of course reject your inference that believing in a creator is a rejection of science.
in fact believing the grand theory of evolution [kerkuts definition /? first matter, first life arising out of that matter and on through the evolutionary path] disregards what we do know , not just what we don't!
I ask you again, how can you apply the scientific method to the past?
" question everything" I doubt you do. it seems you would rather question observable repeatable, tested science than deep time dogma.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 02:15 PM

Pete, this thread is not the place to discuss creationism, but I will not dodge replying to your message:

but what about those theologians who have examined evolutionism and found it cannot be taken seriously, not to mention scientists! the argument from authority cuts either way.

Not at all, you misunderstood me. The theologians I wrote about, accept the principles of evolution theory although they would be better off with creationism, if they considered it to have any slight chance of being taken seriously. Of course I do not take their word for it (I do not need to, since I have some more direct knowledge of evolution theory and its philosophical foundations), but it should convince, for example, those people who seriously ask themselves whether creationism must be taught in schools to ensure equal chances.

My second argument (not a "proof" either) was that if creationism had any point, there would be some non-believing scientists backing it, if only for the chance of becoming famous - I do not know of any. (Note that most other "alternative sciences" find opportunists to discuss them just to sell some books.)

The good news for most religious people is that religion need not bother about science at all. There are other things to worry about.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 09:31 PM

Actually Brother Gnome, there is a very good chance he does understand us perfectly.   There are many books by and about normal rational decent people and there is a chance he may have read one or two.

Or at least looked at the pictures.

Ok. Back to the pilgrimage. Flew down yesterday to Ko Samui for a few days. Not as many Buddhist temples for Mrs Musket to drag me round but plenty of other places that call to the initiated. They truly are a religious experience. The local term for them is beach bar. Very late at night they show big screen services to their deity, and they chant his name. Rrooooooonnnneeeeeyyyyyy!!!!!!

Although Mrs musket and I have found a quieter place of worship by this time. I would stay for the service but a few beers, lobster and an acceptable Pinot, I have another calling. Must have been the lobster. Feeling a bit better this morning though.

Suffering for my faith and spent the kids inheritance getting here. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 04:10 AM

"The good news for most religious people is that religion need not bother about science at all. There are other things to worry about."

Excellent Grishka!

Science has provided us with just as many horrors as it has benefits?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 05:00 AM

One particular horror has been the ease with which communication technology allows dangerous ideas to be pushed by evil people.

At one time the only way to spread fascism was to address a rally, Nuermburg being one such place.

Now with the miracles of technology you can spout off ideas to treat whole groups of society as second class citizens and think you are clever. At one time people had to turn up to hear filth. Now unsuspecting decent people have to put up with it.

Back in your hole worm.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 05:48 AM

Please do not misinterpret me as if I had said that ethics should not bother with technology. The opposite is true.

I am well aware that most (!) posters to this thread try rhetoric tricks of the cheapest sort. If I were to counteract all of them, my day would be spent.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 05:56 AM

""Science has provided us with just as many horrors as it has benefits?""

Science has provided no horrors per se.

Misuse/Abuse of science certainly has!

Why not direct the blame where it really belongs,...at the Abusers?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 06:25 AM

"I ask you again, how can you apply the scientific method to the past?"

Are you asking me here the methods palaeontology, geology, biology, physics, chemistry, astronomy, mathematics etc etc address questions about past life, the earth and it's origin, the universe and it's origins? Or is there something else here I'm missing. I've already pointed you to a graphic showing broadly how science works, that should explain everything.


"in fact believing the grand theory of evolution [kerkuts definition /? first matter, first life arising out of that matter and on through the evolutionary path] disregards what we do know , not just what we don't!"

I'm sorry pete, but you're going to have to qualify that statement in order to continue this conversation. How does evolutionary theory disregard what we know? Where is this data? I wanna see what evidence you have to support this statement, otherwise this is pointless.

""question everything" I doubt you do. it seems you would rather question observable repeatable, tested science than deep time dogma."

I realise you have a low opinion of me as an advocate of science, but displaying this petulant attitude does your argument no favours. Your statement above is meaningless and apart from having a dig, I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but I'll have a go at addressing how we view deep time.

Every palaeontologist and geologist questions the current hypothesis about the age of the earth and the way rocks form every time we go into the field or analyse our data; it is one of the most fundamental requirements of being an earth scientist. Every time we extract a fossil we question how it arrived there, how it came to be fossilised and what sort of environment the animal lived and died in. Responsible collectors are rigorous about recording this information, as without context all you have is a pile of bones. Of course, it needs lots of data from more than just palaeontologists to ensure we are dating the rocks correctly, and this is where the chemists and physicists come in. Furthermore, you need lots of data to be sure you are getting as close as possible when assigning age to a rock or fossil, but luckily since the enlightenment scientists of many disciplines have been collecting data and we now have lots to compare and test against.

So we question and test the whole concept of deep time and geological context all the time, every time. It is a fascinating area to work in and the details are in flux all the time as we find new evidence that shifts the ages of formations and beds. These details will take many lifetimes to work out, and I don't know if we will ever resolve them fully as it's a mighty complex planet we live on, but we've go the big picture pretty much nailed and there's not any evidence that contradicts that in any meaningful way (feel free to prove me wrong here, show me some evidence), although never say never.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 07:42 AM

Stu. You appear to have the patience of a Saint. Our new religion needs a few saints. If you can call bingo we may even be able to speed up the canonisation.

I must be mellowing myself. Someone on another thread just trotted out that lack of belief is a belief in itself. I didn't bite. Probably the relaxation you get from toilets that are more comfortable than the ones back home.

Just to wade in on the science debate. You may need to clarify somewhat. I believe it was Ernest Rutherford who was attributed as saying that science consists of physics. The rest is just stamp collecting. Turns out it was said by others.

I'll get me bog roll.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 11:18 AM

" ... it seems you would rather question observable repeatable, tested science than deep time dogma."

Ah, pete, do you mean "observable" "repeatable", "tested" "science" as "observed" "repeated" and "tested" by creation "scientists", and published exclusively in non-secular, creationist "scientific journals", by any chance?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 11:27 AM

"Stu. You appear to have the patience of a Saint. Our new religion needs a few saints. If you can call bingo we may even be able to speed up the canonisation. "

I don't want to be a saint. I just love dinosaurs.

In his way, Pete is a great teacher. I really, truly, mean that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 06:41 PM

some one seems to be missing something somewhere stu, maybe you ,maybe me ,maybe both of us.
what I am saying is,- whatever discipline you choose you can only do observable, repeatable , testable, on the present.
science applied to the past cannot apply that method, because it IS past!
what is being done is interpretation of the data.
creationists use the same data and obviously interpret accordingly.
evolutionists do the same, as lewontin admitted " lest we allow a divine foot in the door"
what we do know from science [till such time as might in theory be shown otherwise] is abiogenesis is impossible, soft tissue should be gone long before MYO, and probability calculations of even a starter on life beginning are astronomical.
what you appear to do is say that you know dinos lived MYO ,so therefore soft tissue can last that long.
it seems to me more logical to say that there is no evidence that soft tissue could endure millions of years so the long age paradigm is wrong.
obviously when creationists say this , shimrod, they can point to testable, repeatable science - we know soft tissues decay, and I should think the rate of decay in even the most favourable scenarios point to a much shorter timeframe.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 09:41 PM

pete... creationists do indeed interpret differently. They use it to support a hypothesis. Science tests and discards where necessary any hypothesis whilst creationism seeks to use whatever straws they can clutch in order to make ancient stories of mythical origin somehow appear physically possible.

Which is a shame because even when they were written, they were mainly there as stories to learn from, not history to learn.

I reckon if it weren't for creationist and other fundamental nonsense, religion may have more relevance to educated rational people. I also reckon the previous Archbishop of Canterbury knew it. .......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 02:49 AM

Yes, Musket is right - to start by regarding your initial hypothesis as absolute truth, and dismissing any data which doesn't fit that hypothesis, is not the way that real science is done.

You keep banging on about not being able to do scientific experiments on the past (which of the works of the Rev. Dr. Teaparty Fundamentalist did you find that in?) but as Stu says, real scientists have brought to bear the formidable "methods [of] palaeontology, geology, biology, physics, chemistry, astronomy, mathematics etc etc" on questions about the past and their conclusions sound pretty convincing to me.

On the other hand, you and your creationist chums, can't prove that the biblical account of Creation is true - although you claim to have faith that it's true - but questions of faith have nothing to do with science. In addition you can't prove that God, the ultimate creator exists either; the vague, waffly statements about ineffability, that you have used in the past sound, however you try to phrase them, like dodging the question.

Finally, for the umpteenth time, if all of modern science is wrong (which I very, very seriously doubt) that still doesn't mean that the biblical account of Creation is the sole remaining explanation for life on Earth!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 03:45 AM

Musket, Canterbury is head of the Anglican Church.
We have no truck with creationism.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 04:02 AM

"evolutionists do the same, as lewontin admitted " lest we allow a divine foot in the door"

. . . and there it is. Except it isn't, as this quote (which appears widely on creationist websites but comes from an introduction to a Carl Saga book) is a misquote, and should be:

"...materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. "

What Lewontin is discussing here is the material nature of science, it's occasional counterintuitive results and not to allow supernatural explanations (which are artificial constructs the evidence os made to fit, as Shimrod said earlier).

"what you appear to do is say that you know dinos lived MYO ,so therefore soft tissue can last that long."

Strawman argument Pete. In the philosophical sense I do not KNOW dinosaurs lived millions of years ago, but from the scientific point of view the evidence we have accumulated very, very, very (keep adding 'verys' here for a minute or so) strongly indicates that they did and there is no convincing, evidence-based argument to the contrary. So I work from the hypothesis that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago, and the evidence is so strong go we do 'know' in this case. In the case of soft tissues, which you keep harping on about refer to my earlier post which discussed it at length. The evidence is published and available, I suggest you read the scientific arguments supporting and against the author's conclusion.


"it seems to me more logical to say that there is no evidence that soft tissue could endure millions of years so the long age paradigm is wrong."

But there is evidence. See reply above. Read the paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 11:33 AM

Even bigger yawwwwwwwwns!!
You are dead right about being bored..not because I do not understand this crap you are trying to smugly baffle each other with..and the psuedo inttectual posturing you all insist on maintaining.
No phonys..it is with your genuine mind numbing regurgutation of the same old tired , theories..that is sending me to the land of nob..

How shaw..wizzjet, stringfettler, muskrat, seaman staynes and the rest of the soot juggling outsiders can claim to any tither of intellctual prowess is quite frankly beyond me..

I verilly believe that the crayons and dribbling thumb up bum syndrone is beyond even your limited capabillities..
I think we need to expose you all to a course of justin beiber cds in a concerted effort to make you all buck up..but there again..mebe not..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 11:46 AM

You know, I used to introduce a mate on stage as the artist formally known as a crock of shit. Lost contact with him. Mind you, he is eloquent and can spell so I won't get excited.

Keith. I have yet to hear a vicar say God didn't create the heavens and earth. Christians speak of truth when referring to their big book of tales.

If you are embarrassed by that, take it up with the men in pointy hats. I can't help you I'm afraid.

pete. Have you heard of the whole of the Anglican movement not believing in the creation? Keith does claim to check his facts after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 12:08 PM

sending me to the land of nob..

Best Freudian slip I have seen for years. Well done, conc, I didn't that anyone of even your amazing intelligence would admit to being a resident of that fabled domain. I am pretty sure you denied being a (K)nobhead some time back. What has brought on this change of heart.

And if it is so boring, why do you keep coming back for more?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 12:15 PM

Haven't noticed you adding anything meaningful to the debate'concerened' - except, perhaps, a lot of insults and poor spelling.

Mind you, I can sympathise - I used to be dyslexic ... but now I'm not so shore ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 12:22 PM

Just noticed my lysdexia too - Missed out 'think' from 'didn't think that anyone...' That was a bit thoughtless :-)

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 01:54 PM

Few of us are as clever as we think we are.

But, I have to agree with GUEST about the pseudo-intellectual posturing, and the smug in-jokes.
I haven't been involved here....looks like a bad amateur attempt at Monty Python.....are you aware of how very silly you all look?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 02:07 PM

musket-the former archbishop was indeed on your side as far as origins were concerned. and maybe other things as well. when I saw him and dawkins in a so called debate on tv ,it was more like an agreefest!
seems fitting for one residing over a declining c of e.

of course all of modern science is not wrong, shimrod. but interpretations about the past can not all be correct. and where scientists interpret diverse conclusions from the same evidence , that is pretty obvious . not only does the researcher not come to the evidence with a totally open mind, but diverse conclusions are possible.
neither do you have any grounds for asserting that creationists ignore counter evidence. on the contrary it is evolutionism that evades the evidence ,as is evident when you don't address what we do know about things like bi-oogenesis and probability. appeals to authority does not answer it.
still asking for proof? I never said I can prove God or 6 day creation, and neither can you prove evolutionism ,but in light of what we do know from science, a creator is more consistent with the evidence IMO. Until such time as you grant that it is perhaps pointless trying to convince you who that creator is.
stu- you are quite right that I only gave part of the quote ,but you only gave part also. I believe the complete quote is rather confirming my point.
I suggest you read the evidence that counters yours.i regard it as self evident that soft tissue perishes long before millions of years. if you can cite otherwise lets have it, preferably in laymans terms.
and I don't recall you offering any evidence that soft tissue can last 70 million yr other that [begging the question] dinos are that old.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 03:12 PM

Well, what a shock! Ake and Conc are blood brothers! Tell you what, Ake. I doubt very much if he will have you. Out of interest though, if they are 'in jokes' how do you know what they are about and how have you measured their smugness?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 03:28 PM

Akenton..I do not know you but I applaud your comments.I thought I was plowing a lone furrow with the self deluded great and the good.
Point is old chap they genuinly cant see how stupid they do look.
Maybe I am a little lacking in the spelling and grammer skills but I recognise that and do not need these big swinging dicks to point it out to me.I have been accused of insulting them.
.what in I ask?nothing I have said about these puffed up self important self elected post policemen and grammer inspectors are untruthfull..thank goodness some one else has pointed this out.
Untill the likes of shaw, wizzjet and the other psueds and soot juggling cake eaters get on board for the big humillity and compassion game, I will continue to chastise them..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:15 PM

You have been ploughing a lone furrow for a long time, conc pal. It's pretty obvious. Nothing you have ever said has insulted anyone I suspect, because you have never said anything of any consequence. You call that chastising? Our cat could do better. Come on, surely you have more that soot juggling, cake eating and other obscure references in that mighty brain.

You can master managing a top French restaurant, rise to the ranks of Vice-Admiral and yet cannot grasp the simple concepts of your own language. No wonder your furrow remains lonely. Keep 'em coming. I have not laughed at with someone so much for so long for ages.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:23 PM

" ... but interpretations about the past can not all be correct. and where scientists interpret diverse conclusions from the same evidence , that is pretty obvious ..."

True! That's how science works. Nevertheless, as I've written before (many, many, many times) if all interpretations are wrong (which I doubt - by the way) then that DOES NOT imply that the biblical story of creation is true!

"I never said I can prove God or 6 day creation,..."

No, you didn't - I agree! But you have said, in the past, that the true nature of God is unknowable.

And changing the subject (as it were):

"Untill the likes of shaw, wizzjet and the other psueds and soot juggling cake eaters get on board for the big humillity and compassion game, I will continue to chastise them."

Oooohhh! Beat me beat me!! ... Or should that be, beet me, beet me!?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:25 PM

Guest....Intelligence has nothing to do with spelling or grammar.

I have only a basic education, left school at fifteen to be a builder, but I see and understand, and am ruled by no ideology.

You appear to have things pretty well worked out concerning some of those who contribute to these threads.
Don't let them stop you putting in your "tuppence worth", they try to use their "education" to bully and insult.
Not a sure sign of intelligence in my eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:37 PM

Good grief. This gets better and better. The unimaginable encouraging the unintelligible. Cary on guys, you are doing a grand job :-)

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:47 PM

Eeeeeee. Sorry about the spulling mostike. The tears were streaming down and I couldn't type properly for the uncontrollable shaking...

What strange bedfellows. If it wasn't so bleedin' obvious it would make an excellent farce at any theatre. I am just wondering what will happen next. Are you sure you really are a woman, conc? Ake will never love you if you are a bloke you know.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 07:33 PM

""repeatable science - we know soft tissues decay, and I should think the rate of decay in even the most favourable scenarios point to a much shorter timeframe.""

So Pete, explain why those bodies recovered from peat bogs which predate the stone age and still have skin, flesh, hair and some internal organs perfectly preserved should or would have suddenly lost their preserved condition, had we not discovered them for another thousand, or million, or ten million years?

The problem with your "Creation Scientists" (so called) , is that they start with the answer ""God did it"", and make the facts supply the proper ""proof"".

The scientist starts with the question ""What did it"", and honestly seeks a truthful answer, and whatever that answer may be, he accepts it, because he hasn't a preferred outcome in mind. Further to that, as more evidence emerges he changes his conclusions to accommodate it.

When did a Creationist treat any new evidence in that way?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 08:29 PM

Well. I know I am looking silly. What's everybody else's excuse?

I suppose my fellow co Messiah and associated gnome also share my excuse, that of trying to be silly in order to note the absurdity of religious paranoia when it comes to people not wanting to belong.

In the meantime, we attract a few moths to our light. Inadvertent but everyone tries to make an angle. Even former rear end admirals and those who have a complex about rear ending each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 03:09 AM

"Guest....Intelligence has nothing to do with spelling or grammar."

Perhaps not. But poor spelling and grammar do nothing to help the writer's case if he/she is trying to suggest that he/she is more intelligent than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 03:59 AM

Yeah. But too much information my little Scottish reactionary idiot.

We know you didn't have much education. Far better that your odious outlook is based on ignorance than considered opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 04:19 AM

"I suggest you read the evidence that counters yours.i regard it as self evident that soft tissue perishes long before millions of years. if you can cite otherwise lets have it, preferably in laymans terms.
and I don't recall you offering any evidence that soft tissue can last 70 million yr other that [begging the question] dinos are that old."

My mistake, and I apologise. Looking back I haven't mentioned Schweitzer, so here's a good layman's explanation on the Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Higby_Schweitzer

The links at the bottom have the main papers discussing the issue.

"I suggest you read the evidence that counters yours"

I've read the scientific evidence, and seen both sides discussed at conferences, if you mean creationist evidence, I'll leave you to supply that as I'm no expert.

"Few of us are as clever as we think we are.

First thing you learn as a scientist is you're full of shit. Goes for everyone else too.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 04:54 AM

Now then. .. by weird coincidence one of the bloody temples Mrs Musket has dragged me round today has a dead monk in a glass case. He died in 1967 and hasn't started decomposing yet.

Ok. Somewhere between a miracle and a hoax with all points in between but just goes to show. You can even combat pete's soft tissue assertion using religion.

As opposed to fact, granted. But nobody accused me of being serious. (Slightly impressive. They put sunglasses on him and Mrs Musket said he would look too harrowing with his eye sockets. He didn't look terribly healthy as it was.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 03:56 PM

thanks stu,- I read the wiki article but not the links. I figured that if any of them offered any evidence of soft tissue remaining after 68 million yr that it would be cited in main article.
I noted one scientist reflecting that they would have to re-evaluate what they know from experimental lab work in light of these discoveries [ not exact wording but the gist of it ,I think].
experimental science trumped by deep time belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:05 PM

The link at the bottom mentioned by Stu does not discuss scientific theory, but tells the story of Schweitzer's discoveries and her conflict with creationists. It makes good reading for everybody.

Mudcat is not a place where scientific contents can reasonably be taught or discussed. The Internet offers ample reading for those who are genuinely interested. Really understanding things is hard work, in terms of quantity of reading and intensity of thinking.—

To move somewhat back to the thread topic, it must once more be emphasized that the number of creationists is only a small fraction of the number of believers, even of those believers who have any opinion about science at all.

All this I write only for casual readers. The kernel posters to this thread have their agendas and are happy to fling them at each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:14 PM

Semantics as ever. Differentiating between believers and those who believe is stretching debate somewhat?

Already on another thread we have one guy who is so ashamed to be lumped with creationism by association he reckons Church of England believers don't believe.

All rather confusing when rational people try to understand how hypocrisy works.

For all my pointing and laughing, pete is in danger of being the only honest Christian posting here. He may try to twist science to his cause but his motives are transparent and for all to see.   Granted, that makes them worthy of dismissal but you can't fault his refusal to pick and choose.

What's worse. A heathen bugger like me or a Christian who picks and chooses in order to not look silly?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 05:07 AM

All rather confusing when rational people try to understand how hypocrisy works.

Indeed, Musket, your confusion about how life works is quite outstanding. Even when we subtract your willful polemics and trolling, the result is that you know just about nothing about human mind, religion, meaningful traditions, history, philosophy, etc. You take pride in not caring, so you should not be surprised to stay confused. You write that in your professional life, you have to deal with real human beings, so you should not be surprised to stay frustrated either. You claim a moral compass and a friendly attitude in principle, which I would not want to dispute, but you should not be surprised that the image you convey is the very opposite.

The Internet offers us the chance to learn about other people from a safe distance, for a start, but it will not work for those who do not really wish to learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 08:24 AM

Already on another thread we have one guy who is so ashamed to be lumped with creationism by association he reckons Church of England believers don't believe.

We do believe and we are believers.
That does not require a belief in the literal truth of Adam and Eve, Jonah and the whale, or them dry bones walking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 09:24 AM

"experimental science trumped by deep time belief."

*rolls eyes*

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 10:57 AM

Yeah. Thick as pigshit that's me.

I don't have any issue with grown people by choice deciding they believe, have belief but don't really believe it happened.

Just keep the mind fuck away from children and vulnerable adults that's all.

If I'm a troll for pointing it out, then Christians must be kiddie fiddlers by definition. You can't have it all ways.

Except it seems you can. Amazing the perspective delusion gives you. It allows you to cherry pick comment and dismiss detractors as trolling idiots.

So.    What do believers actually believe then? Before answering ensure that you speak for everybody who reads your big book of tales.

I know what pete believes. Whatever it takes. I may smile, I may feel teaching creationism wrong but his honesty and refreshing use of the word belief is one you can understand and almost, not quite but almost respect.

I don't want to learn. I don't want to understand. I know how to cherry pick. I know how to justify pompous sanctimonious positions. I know how to promise jam tomorrow in return for fucking people up.

I don't need an imaginary friend to do it. I don't need to read pathetic threads pointing out one cult is persecuted more than another in order to get sympathy. I don't need to see the difference between religious equality and religious privilege.

I just know that we don't need it for society to work so I get fed up of it being forced down the throat of legislation.

Disestablishmentarianism. There's a word. Longoverbleedingdue is another.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 11:05 AM

There is no one more deluded than you Ian.

You believe that "equality is the reality"
Even Dave doesn't believe THAT.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 01:44 PM

I am pretty sure that Messiah M can speak for himself but telling someone what they do and don't believe when you have only ever met them on a web forum is pretty akin to religious faith. I don't know if he believes that 'equality is the reality' because I don't have a bleedin' clue what that is supposed to mean.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 04:34 PM

well thanks , musket , for the [qualified] compliment. I will leave other believers to explain their reasons for not believing that Jonah was swallowed by a large sea creature which God [the text tells us] had prepared for that purpose ,and which account was evidently believed by Christ - if they believe the gospels that is!.
do such believers believe that the Lord bodily rose from the dead, as those same gospels tell us. or like one [in]famous Anglican said "..a trick with bones"
and btw musket, pointing and laughing is no problem aimed at me , but it hardly constitutes creationist interpretation as being a twisting of science.
grishka- I hear what you are saying about science content, but my point is that even with basic concepts that a layman as myself, not extensively educated, can grasp the particles to people story is full of holes, not to say illogical.
the stock answer that more study and hard work will resolve this sounds like an admission that it cannot be demonstrated to be established fact. I have before quoted evolutionists admitting as much.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 06:40 PM

" ... the particles to people story is full of holes, not to say illogical."

No more illogical than believing that some superbeing made everything ... out of what? And where did He come from and what is He made of?

Also, pete, I think that you ought to think more deeply about the differences between "unbelievable", "improbable" and "impossible".

You find "particles to people" unbelievable - others don't; you assign it a low probability - others assign it a higher probability. I, and others involved in this discussion, assign a low probability to the existence of God - you, on the other hand, assign to His existence a probability of 1.0 or 100% - even though you have no proof of His existence (now THAT'S illogical!).

" ... this sounds like an admission that it cannot be demonstrated to be established fact. I have before quoted evolutionists admitting as much."

No, evolutionary scientists, like all true scientists, assign probabilities to their conclusions - and rarely, if ever, do they assign a probability of 100%. This is NOT an admission that they have reached the wrong conclusion. And, for the umpty-millionth time, YOU CANNOT INSERT THE BIBLICAL CREATION STORY INTO THE GAPS!!!!