Definition of folk song

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 08:14 AM

some info and facts on presleys lack of touring outside the us, due to col tom parkers bad management and bad promotion and Lack of touring abroad

Presley fans have speculated that the reason Presley only once performed abroad, which would probably have been a highly lucrative proposition, may have been that Parker was worried that he would not have been able to acquire a U.S. passport and might even have been deported upon filing his application. In addition, applying for the citizenship required for a US passport would probably have exposed his carefully concealed foreign birth, even though as a US Army veteran and spouse of an American citizen, he would have been eligible to apply for US citizenship.

Throughout his entire career, Presley performed in only three venues outside the United States—all of them in Canada: Toronto, Ottawa, and Vancouver, during brief tours there in 1957. However, at the time of these concerts, crossing the US-Canada border did not require a passport. Red Robinson, Vancouver radio icon and MC of the Presley concert in that city, said Parker did not accompany Presley to that show, but instead stayed in Washington. However, it should be noted that it is well-established that Parker did not accompany Presley on every tour and every performance date, even in the US, suggesting this may not have been the only rationale for Presley not performing abroad.

Rumors that he would play overseas for the first time were fueled in 1974 by a million-dollar bid for an Australian tour. Parker was uncharacteristically reluctant, prompting those close to Presley to speculate about the manager's past and the reasons for his apparent unwillingness to apply for a passport. Parker ultimately squelched any notions Presley had of working abroad, although it must also be noted that Presley did not push the issue, either.[51]

Other possible theories for Presley's lack of touring abroad include the following:

    Parker's fear that security overseas was not as good as in the US
    Parker's belief that outside influences (managers, agents etc.) would inform Presley of how unusual his contract with Parker was.
    Parker's claim that there was a lack of venues large enough to accommodate a star of Presley's stature. All of these excuses were given to Presley when he would show an interest in touring abroad. Presley, who was known to avoid confrontation, would never argue against them.
    Some promoters wanted to charge fans the equivalent of $100 per ticket. Parker did not wish the fans to be ripped off, and this was another reason he turned down overseas offers.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 08:19 AM

> You tall me that this is going to happen to the pop-based songs that are passed off as 'folk' nowadays, and you might have made a point.

This is one basis (of several)for maintaining a distinction.

The words and lyrics of most copyrighted songs are jealously guarded. Furthermore, modern society is far more concerned with singing or playing something exactly as it was written than were the rural societies of the nineteenth century earlier.

Variation is key to the 1954 def. But singer-songwriter lyrics rarely vary - largely because we can listen to the recording again and again and correct ourselves.

So except for lesser forms like rugby songs (and now even these!), one key element of "folksong" has largely faded away. The same with "oral tradition."

Is what's left worth calling "folksong"? Obviously it depends on who you ask.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 04:03 PM

A little expansion on my earlier briefer attempts to give some meanings to the word 'folk' as applied to song. It's not exhaustive or definitive and there are obvious overlaps between some of them.

1) 1954
2) Songs written in the 1954 style or influenced by 1954 style.
3) Songs written by folk singers
4) Songs claimed to be folk by Tin Pan Alley and the media.
5) Songs perceived to be folk by 'the folk', i.e., the people who are not part of the sophisticated folk scene.

There is a delicious irony in some people's refusal to accept number 5.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 04:21 PM

Hi Jon,
Yes, a continuous living song tradition that hasn't had to be revived.

Possibles, Nursery songs, terrace chants, rugby songs, playground chants, carols. All of these have been variously influenced by commercial recordings over the last century, but earlier forms of folk song were also heavily influenced by commerce and managed to survive.

I suspect all of these to some extent have been hit by technology, but they are remarkably robust. One area particularly hit by commercial recordings is the nursery song. Too many parents now shove on a CD, which has the effect of standardising around the world, instead of singing the versions they had sung to them. Also those singing plastic books tend to use standard American versions. Another thing I've noticed is that what were mostly chanted rhymes in my day now have a tune, either a new one or one transferred from another song. Lots of new material though which is rapidly absorbed into the repertoire.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 04:30 PM

Load of old bollock Jim.

I doubt that more than 5% of renditions of First Time Ever I Saw Your Face reaches the beneficiaries of MaColl's estate.

Why?

Because folk singers sing it in folk clubs.

I've been playing in folk clubs for more years than a teenager like me cares to recall , but I haven't ever seen organisers pass the PRS forms round....

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 04:52 PM

Steve, I hadn't thought of the nursery songs and several other types you mention.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: frogprince
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 07:55 PM

Did anyone happen to notice that the original poster was just making an offhand joke which had little or nothing to do with the endless and futile arguments about the definition of folk that have been beaten to death here since the inception of the forum?

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 08:57 PM

Jim, so sorry you found my post patronising, but you still seem to have some difficulty in understanding abfairly simple statement that you chose to copy here, and still seem to wish to add a meaning that is clearly not there!

Unlike you, I have not resorted to being insulting, and let's talk about being patronising shall we, and look at your clear assumption that you are the definitive authority on 'folk' music, and the way you try to assume that no-one else knows a thing about the subject, or is entitled to an opinion. PerhapS when you get your dictionary out, you should look un the meaning of patronising, because the attitude you display here is patronising to the extreme!

Now, let's go back to the subject under discussion.

'Folk' music is a style, plain and simple. It describes the music of the indigenous population of a country, region or area. Hence Folk is a term used to describe the musical style of many different countries. As a term to describe a STYLE of music, it is therefore quite possible to have a 'Folk' song that was written yesterday.

I suspect Jim, that the authors and singers of old would be horrified by your attitude, as I'm sure they would wish to encourage others to do the same as they were doing, and create new 'Folk' songs.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 09:17 PM

> 'Folk' music is a style, plain and simple.

Why should we believe that, to the exclusion of other definitions already provided on this thread?

Anyone convinced that their own understanding of "folk music" is obvious and indisputable might try to answer this challenge:

"Prove it."

(This should be good....)

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 03:43 AM

"I have not resorted to being insulting"
I find being patronised as insulting as anything I have siad - especially;y when you have repeated it as much as you have.
I may be wrong in what I say but I do have some experience in the subject.
Steve.
"Songs written by folk singers"
Which "folk singers" - if the term "folk" has lost its meaning on the club scene, then so has the term folk singer.
"the people who are not part of the sophisticated folk scene."
Depends what you mean - if you are talking about the general public who are no way involved in music and no nothing about it, it would be as insane to include their view of it into any definition.
If you are referring to the older generation of singers who are not part of the scene, it is our experience that they regarded folk songs as something apart from other types of songs they were aware of and often sang, though the terms they used were not necessarily those we use.   
Persnally, I find "there is a delicious irony in some people's refusal to accept that one", or even refer to it.
I have no interest in what either the media or Tin Pan Alley has to say about folk song unless it comes with some knowledge and understanding of the subject - ignorance or self-interest should never be a factor in defining something.
I think there is a great deal to be said of your following list, which are largely parodies, but I, like you, wonder if they have survived.
"Folk' music is a style, plain and simple."
No it isn't, why should it be?
National styles of performance vary wildly, once you start to cross borders they can become totally unrelated to one another.
People here are talking about 'Electric folk' - a thousand miles from the solo, unaccompanied voice that is the norm of folk music of the British Isles - that is the form in which we were introduced to folk song.
If a song is performed on operatic style it remains a folk song performed in operatic style.
George Butterworth's 'Banks of Green Willow', Delius's 'Unto Brig Fair and Vaughan Williams' Sea Symphony No. 4 all use orchestrated folk songs, the styles no way resemble those that introduced us to the songs.
Peter Pears rendition of Britten's 'Lyke Wake Dirge' is a folk ballad sung in operatic style.
You can perform an operatic aria or a Schubert song or a pop song or a Country and Western number or a Lieder composition in a recognised folk style without any of them becoming folk songs.
The researched and well-established definitions you have been given all refer to the origins and transmission of folk songs - you want proof - call round sometime and I'll pull down a hundred or so books and journals dating from over a century ago to the present day - you have yet to provide one.
You talk about "experts" yet refer to non-involved people in the street.   
Sorry, not convinced in the slightest.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 03:59 AM

Lighter, I think we've been here before!

Now if I said to to you Rock is a musical style, Jazz is a musical style, Classical is a musical style, would you disagree? No, of course you would not.

Folk was the word coined to describe a musical style as 'Rap' has been more recently. Now I personally have no issue with the word 'Folk' being used to describe the style of a song written 300 years ago, or yesterday!

I note MGM Lion's comments above about the trades descriptions act, well, that's pretty well every folk club and festival countrywide, perhaps you and he might like to fund the test case?

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 05:42 AM

"I have not resorted to being insulting" jim carroll, hilarious.
are we to assume jim that you consider calling the snail an arrogant little twat complimentary, jim stop wasting everyones time go off and collect butterflies.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 06:00 AM

"Rock is a musical style, Jazz is a musical style, Classical is a musical style,"
Er no - none of them are - they each come with a myriad variety of styles, but each of them carry different connotations which reach far beyond those styles.
"jim stop wasting everyone's time go off and collect butterflies."
Stop behaving like a fascist and telling people what they should and should not do.
Stop interfering with the discussion, if you have anything to say of worth, say it and astound us with your knowledge and erudition!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 06:37 AM

Jim, er, yes, all of them are musical styles,and I was assuming that most readers of my post would be bright enough to realise that these words are 'catch all' terms and there are sub groups within those terms, as indeed is 'Folk'

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 06:58 AM

Dick was not 'fascistically telling anyone what to do', in fairness, Jim; merely pointing out quite accurately a mismatch between a declaration of your intent and your actual practice in one particular instance. Don't get into one of those sarcastic hysterical states over a trifle that so often mar some of your better arguments, now...

Best wishes

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 08:06 AM

"all of them are musical styles"
Then you must know that "style" does not define, only help identify.
The list below list from Wiki is is a fairly handy guide to what constitutes folk song types - for a fairly comprehensive referenced list of folk song titles, Roud pretty well has them covered.
"Don't get into one of those sarcastic hysterical states"
Thanks for the advice Mike - I'm afraid that Dick's behaviour is too much a part of an ongoing vendetta to be totally ignored - which is usually my first instinct
Must try harder.
Jim Carroll

War song
Anti-war song
Sea songs, including sea shanties
Drinking song
Work song
Love song
Child Ballads (tragic ballads)
Protest song
Murder ballad
Sporting song
Other folk music relates to social events:
Christmas carol
Pub session

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 09:10 AM

jim, there is no vendetta, i have respect for your collecting activities, i am trying to point out the foolishness of insulting other members and how it undermines the occasions when you have something of value to say.
in my opinion, folk song can be defined when new songs get taken up by the public who are outside of the uk folk revival,and assumed to be trad, examples in ireland are dirty old town, caledonia, song for ireland, fiddlers green, these songs have been taken up by members of the public who are not aware of folk clubs , or the 1954 definition, this does not mean that these songs are not also sung in folk clubs, but in my opinion it is when they capture the minds of the "folk", who are not folk song afficianados

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 09:18 AM

Say what you have to say on the subject - stop adressing me - leave me alone
I am not the slightest bit interested in whether or not you respect me
Back off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 09:31 AM

Really no need to be so ungracious, Jim. Unworthy of you.

May I, rather than repeat it here, draw attention to a post touching on this 'definition' topic which I have just posted on the simultaneously ongoing "What makes a new song a folksong?" thread.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 12:57 PM

'if you are talking about the general public who are no way involved in music and know nothing about it, it would be as insane to include their view of it into any definition.'

You obviously have no knowledge of lexicography, Jim. Lexicographers only go to experts for definitions of academic and technical words. The vast majority of definitions are drawn from trawling through the media to ascertain what common usage is, and this is largely governed by the man in the street's usage (the Folk)!

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 02:45 PM

"Really no need to be so ungracious, Jim. Unworthy of you."
Wasn't addressing you Mike
Trying to get the Old Man of The Sea off my back - he's been there for over a year
Jim Varroll

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 03:41 PM

Some damn song I heard in the cantina and can't quite remember.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: GUEST,You English
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 06:03 PM

Up north of Watford Gap, 'folk' is a commonly used term for 'people'. A people's song, I'd surmise, is one that people care to hear without having to buy anything, or can play effectively on the cheapest of instruments, if not just the voice. Great skill is not necessary, alcohol often is.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Musket
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 06:13 PM

Music of the people?

That's the argument we gave when for young people, we young people played punk in the late '70s.

You could argue that when half a dozen guitars at a folk night represent £20k of value, said values are skewed from the original.

Which is fine. Because music is an abstract. You don't have to test lyrics against your more political and social values. If you do, you bastardise the genre. I once told Roy Bailey he was a stupid armchair socialist but I still liked the noise he made.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 12:07 PM

I detect a lot of bitterness in Jim's unshakable and seemingly solo stance. Just about everyone here has rightly (IMO) expressed their admiration for Jim's work in folk song. I find the situation somewhat sad so I'm dropping out.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 12:54 PM

very sad.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 06:06 AM

So what have we learned from this debate?
Prior to 1954 there was much discussion and argument about what folk song means.
A group of enthusiasts decided what they thought were the qualifcations which a song needed to have to be a boni fide folk song.
The argument ever since has been did they pick the right qualifications,and did they have right to set those qualifications.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 06:16 AM

"Prior to 1954 there was much discussion and argument about what folk song means."
Not really - It was more or less a recognised genre from the beginning of the 20th centry - '54 attempted to put it into a recognisable form.
"A group of enthusiasts decided what they thought were the qualifcations which a song needed to have to be a boni fide folk song"
Again - not really - "bona-fide" was never an issue because the matter wansn't really disputed.
Much of '54 and what came before it was confirmed as having validity by the B.B.C. project in Britain, The Work carried out by th Irish Folk Department in rural Ireland and The Library of Congress work in the U.S.
"I find the situation somewhat sad so I'm dropping out."
I'd much rather you stayed here and actually responded to some of the points I am making.
Refusing to do so tends to confirm them as far as I'm concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 06:30 AM

"It was more or less a recognised genre"
So there wasn't total agreement?
That it needed to put in a recognisable form implies that there was debate and it needed clarification.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 06:37 AM

Steve
"seemingly solo stance"
Please do not feel sad on my behalf because I can't convince a number of folkies of something far to well researched, established and documented (particularly Steve Roud) that it is what it is and needs no justification.
As for my 'bitterness' - if it exists at all it is in the fact that folk song has lost a strong ally in the shape of the clubs that first opened the door to a wonderful new world, do different from the music I was listing to which is now being passed off as folk.
Describing my stance as "solo" says little of your knowledge of the research work that has gone into and continues into folk song as I understand it, unless, of course, you are saying that the research side of folk songs in Britain has abandoned all efforts of defining it, as have the clubs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 06:52 AM

"As for my 'bitterness' - if it exists at all it is in the fact that folk song has lost a strong ally in the shape of the clubs that first opened the door to a wonderful new world, do different from the music I was listing to which is now being passed off as folk."
you are unqualified to talk about the music in folk clubs because by your own ad mission you rarely visit them.
"Not really - It was more or less a recognised genre from the beginning of the 20th centry - '54 attempted to put it into a recognisable form." no it wasnt, by whom was it a recognised genre, stop making up things and passing them off as truth.
it was either a recognised genre or it wasnt[ it cant be more or less] and you have not provided any evidence it was a recognised genre.
furthermore the 1954 definition is not recognised world wide, you r statement in a previous post is just another peice of fiction you are attempting to pass of as truth, please desist.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Musket
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 08:13 AM

So I said to him, I said "1954 my lad!" He said "I think Martin Carthy was too young to be a performer back then?"

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 08:23 AM

Doesn't answer a thing Muskie and your contempt for the elderly remains just that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 08:58 AM

Jim,You undoubtedly have a deep love of folk song,I respect and recognise
that.
Therein lies the problem,you have formed your views on what it means to you.Those views and opinions are very important to you.
You are very protective of them,which can make your counter replies to those who challenge them aggressive and often insulting,sadly a tit for tat quarrel then breaks out.
Neither party wins an argument on those lines and loses dignity and respect.
Swallow pride and agree to differ,the next time someone pokes the fire, ignore them.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 11:09 AM

Jim,
I'm dropping out simply because we are discussing separate things as if they were the same. I am very happy with the 54 definition as it now stands and I use it in much of my work, even though there are some grey areas. As I suspect do most of the contributors here who are not being frivolous.

The problem is you don't seem able to accept that the English language is evolving all the time and words can have new meanings. That doesn't mean we have to drop the old meanings.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Musket
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 11:11 AM

Contempt? Naw, we young 'uns have a duty to humour them....

The real young 'uns don't have a duty to wear their trousers up to their tits though in order put a name to the music many of them are producing.

Derrick. He loves it really. He and I agree on some things and get together to shout down fascists and bigots. He shouts me down for calling my songs "folk" and I shout him down for assuming librarians understand the contents of text books.

Me & my big mouth.. That slipped out so easily.....

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 11:17 AM

"Neither party wins an argument on those lines and loses dignity and respect."
Derrick - if I'd formed my views of what makes a folk song purely on my love for them, you might have a point.
I haven't - I have attempted to back up my conclusions with a great deal of research, the most important being the thirty odd years we spent recording and interviewing traditional singing and documenting what they had to say anout the song I regard as 'folk'
It's all up for grabs in the National Library in London and at least two archives in Dublin.
As far as I'm concerned, by just "agreeing to differ" I would be selling out the people who took the time and effort to pass on their songs and what they thought of, besides making us no different than coin or beer-mat collectors.
What opinions a small grou of folkies hold of what I do and think really doesn't interest me in the long run.
This is a forum on which we should be able to discuss our ideas of folk song, lore and music freely - that fact that some people find the expression of views contrary to their own unacceptable and find it necessary to shout be down and "stick to collecting butterfies" disturbs me far more than anybody's opinion of me.
It indicates a suppression of freedom of speech and thought on what I believe to be a valuable open forum.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Musket
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 11:49 AM

WELL STOP SUPPRESSING ANY VIEW YOU EITHER DISAGREE WITH OR PLAIN DON'T UNDERSTAND THEN!

Sorry, you've got me shouting now.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 12:18 PM

a misquote from jim again i said
"jim stop wasting everyones time go off and collect butterflies"
you are wasting everyones time when you attempt to deny that you insulted anyone, when in one of your posts you call the snail an arrogant little prat.
my quote is not attempting to stop you speaking freely if you are prepared to be civil, it is saying learn some manners or go somewhere else.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 12:21 PM

I'm taking the same route as Steve for much the same reasons as he is.
Jim has decided what he he believes words to mean, backed up by many years of research, and is immovable on the subject and seemingly impervious to evolution to change in the use of language.
He says he doesn't really care what other people think and seems to think respecting that someone has a different opinion is selling out.
Keep up the good work Jim,even if I don't agree with all of your views

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 01:34 PM

One sung by the Full English.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 02:40 PM

"He says he doesn't really care what other people think "
No such thing - I said "What opinions a small group of folkies hold of what I do and think really doesn't interest me in the long run" - Anybody willing to criticise my woek with a view to improving it iterests me very much - that is not happening here - your suggestion that I should agree to differ and by implication, go away, doesn't interest me in the slightest other than to disturb me on a forum where we are supposed to be able to discuss these things.
"think respecting that someone has a different opinion is selling out."
Please don't misrepresent what I said, accidentally or otherwise.
I undertook to record songs from source singers using the argument that if they weren't recorded they would die out when the singers died.
That has nothing whatever to do with my shutting up for the sake of peace and quiet, which is what I would be doing and is what you suggested I do.
"my quote is not attempting to stop you speaking freely"
"evolution to change in the use of language"
Such cange needs far more than a small pressure group attempting to bring about a chand in order to take over a seat already occupied.
"go off and collect butterflies"
You are probably the most arrogant, ill mannered and self-promoting individual on this forum - you have no compunction in insulting people and have on many occasions
Kindly mind your own business and do not to tell me how to talk to people - especially somebody who has no compunction in insulting me, and has done in the past.
I don't agree with Brian, sometimes over-enthusiastically, but I respect both his work for folk music and his opinions, otherwise I would ignore him as I am trying to do you, who has none of those qualities.   
Mind your own business - unless Bryan has P.Md you asking you to stick up on his behalf - mind your own business - we really do have nothing to say to each other.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 03:26 AM

jim, the fact that you continually insult other members when they disagree with you is every members business, apart from Bryan you regularly insult KEITH A.
"Mind your own business - unless Bryan has P.Md you asking you to stick up on his behalf - mind your own business - we really do have nothing to say to each other.
Jim Carroll"
The quote from your post illustrates that it is you that is attempting to tell me what to do"mind your own business".
next,you insult me and my work here
"I don't agree with Brian, sometimes over-enthusiastically, but I respect both his work for folk music and his opinions, otherwise I would ignore him as I am trying to do you, who has none of those qualities."
so the fact that i have organised a folk festival for 3 years, organised folk clubs, performed and been booked regularly at folk clubs[ in the case of Stockton Folk club 25 times in 50 years] and folk festivals is not deserving of respect and means I do not have similiar qualities as BRYAN who organises a folk club in Lewes, all i can say is this is yet another illogical and rude statement from your good self?.
Jim, please l

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 03:49 AM

herE you are insulting Keith A,[ for my part whether i agree with Keith or not i do noty respons with childish unpleasant insults.Jim Carroll, I meant you,and here is the evidence, to the Snail, "you arrogant little prat". and another
Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 04:57 AM

"I ignore nothing as you know, Jim, & deplore Israel's actions as much as you."
Yes - we know you don't like olive trees being cut down - which is about as serious an accusation as you have ever made of Israel.
You have allowed Keith the moron to make your case for you and leapt to his defence whenever he got into trouble
On occasion you have resorted suggesting that those of us who feel strongly about Israel's behaviour as anti-Semites and "Jew-baiters"
You are as sad a case as he is a disgusting one
Jim Carroll Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 07:47 AM

The Jerusalem Post - my apologies?
The film must have been a load of shit in that case.
All the points in the German paper were fully covered by the film itself
The film was not about Palestine - it was about the effects of an apartheid ethnic cleansing policy has on ordinary human beings.
One of the most telling moments was the mistrust shown towards Palestinian politicians who muscled in on the press interviews.
You can dredge up any dissenting reviews you wish - the film said it all
It is a superbly honest film and has been recognised as such with world-wide acclaim

"5 Broken Cameras" has been screened at a number of film festivals and won the award for best Israeli documentary at the 2012 Jerusalem Film Festival. It also took the prize for best documentary directing in the World Cinema category at the Sundance Film Festival.
It was nominated for an Academy Award in the documentary feature category this year, but lost to "Searching for Sugarman.""
Take your ethnic cleansing apologisms elsewhere you deplorable toe-rag.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 04:02 AM

I have had enough of this
Every posting you have made to this thread has been aimed directly at me and most of them have been a personal attack, personally insulting - exactly what you accuse me of doing.
You have contributed noting to the topic under this discussion, but have made this and the other one a part of your obsessive vendetta.
It will stop now - if it doesn't I will ask one of the adjudicators to order you to stop.
I'm far too old to cope with a cyber-stalker.
You have been far nastier on one thread than mot people could possibly have been in a whole lifetime.
Take you unpleasantness and peronal attacks elsewhere - if you have anything to say on the subject, please do so, but do not address them to me
I'll post this up on both threads
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: frogprince
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 09:55 AM

Y'know...
Long ago I knew two preacher who argued for years over whether Jesus was not able to sin, or able to not sin.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 10:05 AM

I've just come back from a weekend at Swanage FOLK festival, where I've observed a large number of people enjoying 'folk' music of a wide variety of styles, from bluegrass and Americana, traditional song, new songs written in a traditional style, folk/rock etc etc.

Disappointed to find that neither Lighter or MGM Lion have responded to my challenge to fund a test case with trading standards!

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 01:56 PM

the facts are there, for everyone to see, Jim Carroll continually insults people who disagree with him.
here is an example of a contribution to this thread that is not apersonal attack or personally insulting.Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 09:10 AM

jim, there is no vendetta, i have respect for your collecting activities, i am trying to point out the foolishness of insulting other members and how it undermines the occasions when you have something of value to say.
in my opinion, folk song can be defined when new songs get taken up by the public who are outside of the uk folk revival,and assumed to be trad, examples in ireland are dirty old town, caledonia, song for ireland, fiddlers green, these songs have been taken up by members of the public who are not aware of folk clubs , or the 1954 definition, this does not mean that these songs are not also sung in folk clubs, but in my opinion it is when they capture the minds of the "folk", who are not folk song afficianados

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 02:23 PM

Interestingly, I find the definition of 'folk song' a lot more clear than the definition of most musical 'genres' such as jazz, rock, 'world music', and even classical. Of course there is always overlap.

I think that Jim Carroll has done a lot on this thread to throw clarity on the term and I value that.

I don't really put incredible energy into defining musical 'genres' (although I do think it's important to be clear about the folk process that makes a song into a folk song).

My dilemma (I once started a thread on this but it didn't go anywhere---maybe I should bring it back) is more of a practical one.

I'm involved in trying to set up a radio station in Canada. And one of the requirements of the CRTC (Canadian Radio and Television Commission) is to have a certain %age of songs that are Canadian content.   For what they call "Category 2"...which is pop, rock, C&W, easy listening, etc. it has to be 35%. For category 3 it is only 12%.   Category 3 includes something called "Folk or Folk Oriented".   A lot of what I play spans the line between pop/rock, country, and 'folk oriented'. I'd like to be able to claim it's 'folk oriented' so I only need 12% Canadian content.

Are you with me?

So my question than becomes, what is 'folk oriented'. The only assistance I can get is that if the majority of people think of it as folk or folk oriented, then I can get away with calling it that.

So I'd love to hear what people in Mudcat classify as folk oriented.

I have no problem defining what I would definitely call 'folk'.

If I started a new thread and say, listed about 100 songs that span that boundary between pop and so-called 'folk', how many of you who have contributed to this thread would feel any energy in checking off which ones you would place in the category of 'folk oriented'.....again, knowing that CRTC is NOT providing any kind of definition.

Subject: RE: Definition of folk song
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 03:50 PM

,larry.
scarborough fair, dirty old town,the town i loved so well, wild rover,coalminers daughter,dark as the dungeon,kilgarry mountains, all around my hat, first time ever i saw your face,good night irene,all of jez lowes songs..fiddlers green,little red rooster,yesterday,wild mountain thyme , rare ould times,fields of athenry,barbara allen, caledonia