Patriotism

Subject: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 10:36 PM

This is from a comment on Quora.

Nobody in Germany (except Neo-Nazis) will say "I am proud to be German". That is a big no-no and has cost several public figures their jobs.

Many Germans will also argue that it is illogical to be proud of the accident of birth that could have just as easily placed you in Rwanda, or to be proud of your nation's achievements when you haven't done anything to create them.

That being said, you can sometimes find people who are paradoxically "proud of not being proud". They (and I myself am tending more and more towards that view) are proud of Germany for being basically the only nation that has identified patriotism as the root of much evil and done away with it.

Caused me to think. Some of the people I consider most dangerous in America call themselves patriots.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: frogprince
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 11:29 PM

If there were on definition of patriotism in the minds of all who speak of it, it would be much easier to respect or to condemn "patriotism" Certainly there are massive numbers who effectively exalt and proclaim that "we are the greatest nation, composed of the greatest people, and God has ordained and empowered us to mold the world to his ends". One step removed, there are the "patriots" who consider themselves to be the only true Americans, entitled to do anything to their fellow citizens in the pursuit of their just cause. There remain those who may consider themselves patriots because they love their country, but would hope to see it as an area occupied by one fraction of the human race. And I just struggled with how to define that last faction, and whether I've defined it at all well.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Janie
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 11:54 PM

Appreciate you trying to put into words what I struggle with myself, Dean. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 01:41 AM

I like my country well enough, and I served in the army and pay my taxes and work as a volunteer in my community. But the people who call themselves patriotic never seem to think I'm good enough to be an American. Oftentimes, their idea of patriotism has something to do with having guns to protect themselves from their government, and to preserve their freedom to misuse and deface our national resources.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 02:40 AM

I like two quotes from Bertrand Russell and George Bernard Shaw:-

Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.
Bertrand Russell

You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.
George Bernard Shaw,

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 02:40 AM

Don't conflate "patriotism" with "nationalism".

Being "proud" of whatever country you happen to have been born in, has got nothing to do with being a "patriot" - being a "patriot" and being "patriotic" has got a great deal more to do with what you as an individual can do to making your country a better place.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 02:48 AM

In Juneau's local paper several commenters disagreed on America's "exceptionalism". I and at least one other person contended that even though we love our country just as most people love the place where they were born, the very concept exceptionalism is naive and disingenuous, that this country, like most other countries, has done good things but equally bad things to its people and to the world, things in the past and the present that will impact the future for all. I said that the thing I am proud of America for is the willingness many of its people have to acknowledge its shortcomings and to seek to improve it. I love the humility of this line in 'America, the Beautiful': God mend thine every flaw and crown thy good with brotherhood and liberty in law.

One person took great umbrage at our position and has since in other threads claimed that we are people who hate our country, that "real" patriots would never think such a thing.

Yep. I'm afraid of 'real patriots'.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:01 AM

Teribus says: Don't conflate "patriotism" with "nationalism."

Where do the "Tea Party Patriots" fit into that equation? I'm surrounded by 'em in this county.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:21 AM

It is telling that the word "Patriot" is used as a name for a type of missile......

Some people see patriotism as a duty. So we return to Mr Bernard Shaw...

"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."

Patriotism seems a bigger deal in The USA. The idea of making children stand and put their hand on their heart, swearing to the flag and all that.. I always thought overt rituals were a sign of lack of confidence in the first place.

The Tea Party angle is similar to our UKIP angle but with guns rather than pints of beer. Make Britain great! Stop immigration from being a drain! the government, running scared of the closet racists calling themselves UKIP are getting that way themselves, even to the point of trying to hide a report last week showing that immigration has had a net contribution to the economy rather than a drain on benefits.

I mention this because the latest idea by raving bigots is to appeal to patriotism and christianity. (Note the large Muslim, Hindu, Sikh etc population of The UK, let alone the fact that less than 1% of the population go to church....)

Interesting times, especially as big business has shown that the world is a smaller place now and patriotism is becoming a more parochial irrelevance all the time. Presumably hence the backlash?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:12 AM

Not certain - I don't believe in the label on the tin, it's what's inside which counts.
One of the biggest areas is competitive sports - from the Olympics downwards. We seek to be the best we can, as individuals, and sometimes as teams, and it can be useful support for that search for excellence. But at the same time, I'm not buying into the my country right or wrong side of it, the political paranoia. We are not islands alone, we are part of a world, and that tawdry currency has been debased further by the hard history of abuse from all sides. Let us be humans first.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:12 AM

Just as a matter of information, UKIP state that their opposition to unregulated immigration from the EU ("free movement of labour"),is not chiefly on economic grounds...though they DO dispute the latest set of economic figures, but on societal and infrastructure grounds.

"Team Musket" have a very bad habit of misrepresenting every view which threatens their pet myth.

Love of ones country is a positive emotion, blind acceptance of the system which rules it, robs it, and grinds its people into the dust, is stupid and negative....much more of a danger to society than a few flag wavers or gun toters.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:36 AM

Teribus' distinction between "patriotism" and nationalism" is correct.

I would go further in saying that "jingoism" is the particularly bellicose form of nationalism.

As Samuel Johnson famously said, "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." (He was referring to insincere appeals to patriotism, not the actual sense of patriotism.)

That doesn't logically entail that all or even most patriots are scoundrels, but it may have helped tarnish the very concept of patriotism, especially since the 1960s.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:42 AM

"Patriot missile" - says it all, really.

Regards

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:43 AM

Ruling, robing and grinding ones own people into the dust is one thing. Doing it to others to benefit your tribe, through historic and current forms of economic and political colonionsm is another.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:49 AM

I give it four more posts before Akhenaton manages to somehow talk about his favourite subject again, anal sex.

For someone to say love of one's country is a positive emotion seems to contradict his hatred of his country in every other thread about The United Kingdom. ZZZZZ

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 07:12 AM

Funny that its always a spokesman for "team Musket" who introduces the subject of AI in every thread. This particular thread does not concern AI.

My country is Scotland, born and bred, a Fergusson by my great grandmother and a MacDonald by my grandmother.
I grew up in a partially Gaelic speaking community....the Lords of the Isles are in my heart, I know my history and how the Union has almost exterminated the Scottish, Irish, Welsh and English cultures.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 07:52 AM

You are a citizen of The UK. All parishes are in The UK. You are British.

Whether that makes me feel proud to be British is another thing entirely...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:28 AM

To all those who supported the ACA, Obamacare...was this bill passed out of 'patriotism'???

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 09:26 AM

"Patriot missile" - says it all, really." - MartinRyan

As the missile is purely a defensive weapon I would say that it would fit my distinction although in the case of this inanimate object it could be easily demonstrated that it makes the country a safer place - and safe is good isn't it?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 10:07 AM

It seems that the conservatives in America have laid claim to the term "patriot". So now to be a patriot in their eyes translates to "You agree with me".

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 11:43 AM

"Defensive missile"

Ha Ha Ha HA!!!!!!




Really, you ought to go on the stage.


Freak.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 11:50 AM

"Whether that makes me feel proud to be British is another thing entirely... "

Embrace it "team Musket".....you have so very little to feel proud about!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: olddude
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 12:08 PM

Teribus got it right

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 01:10 PM

"


         The Wild Geese
'Oh, tell me what was on yer road, ye roarin' norlan
   As ye cam' blawin' frae the land that's niver frae my mind?
My feet they trayvel England, but I'm deein' for the north—'
   'My man, I heard the siller tides rin up the Firth o' Forth.'
'Aye, Wind, I ken them well eneuch, and fine they fa' and rise,
   And fain I'd feel the creepin' mist on yonder shore that lies,
But tell me, ere ye passed them by, what saw ye on the way ?'
   'My man, I rocked the rovin' gulls that sail abune the Tay.'

'But saw ye naethin', leein' Wind, afore ye cam' to Fife?
   There's muckle lyin' yont the Tay that's mair to me nor life.'
'My man, I swept the Angus braes ye haena trod for years—'
   'O Wind, forgie a hameless loon that canna see for tears!—'

'And far abune the Angus straths I saw the wild geese flee,
   A lang, lang skein o' beatin' wings wi' their heids towards the sea,
And aye their cryin' voices trailed ahint them on the air—'
   'O Wind, hae maircy, haud yer whisht, for I daurna listen mair!' "

This fine poem by Violet Jacob gives a flavour of what Scotland, East or West, means to a native Scot.
I watch and listen to the wild geese travel over every spring and autumn....never fails to touch my heart.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 01:17 PM

from Bob Beers "The Seasons of Peace"

"False are the bickering reigns
Of honor, of homeland, of war
That nourish the torrents of hate,
and flow through the valleys of death,

Cold are the patriot winds
That scatter the bittering weed,
Strong are the seedlings of truth
That grow in the seasons of peace."

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM

""Lisa says that it's all right
When she meets me at midnight
Lisa says that she has her fun
And she'll do it with just about anyone""

Velvet Underground

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 01:58 PM

I suppose patriotism does come into being in a small way for us all. I am proud of being a UK citizen in that we started the whole international sign up to human rights, including the international courts that all but a few less advanced countries are signed up to.

UK citizens enjoy equality of opportunity, enshrined in law. You can go about your life without discrimination based on race, gender, disability or sexual orientation. If you are discriminated against or come up against published bigotry, you can call criminals to account.

Yes, I can be proud to be British. Despite everything, most of us are. When a part of The Uk had the choice of leaving the other month, they emphatically voted to remain British. The politicans wanting to leave wished to take the equality their party had put into legislation with them. The Scottish National Party, despite being rather incompetent and wooly headed, are at the forefront of equal rights and opportunity for all. The Scottish National Party will go down in history as the government that made gay marriage a fact in a part of The UK known for religious intolerance and low intelligence bigotry in some people, and they have every right to be proud of themselves, every last single member.

Oh aye, our past may have been one of discriminating against people, same as any other country, but apart from a few criminals and people with disturbed minds, we do have something to be patriotic about, despite our international reputation for self loathing...

That said, I am not a patriot. That has connotations of "holier than thou" about it, and just like in The States, tends to be put forward as an asset by the wrong people....

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 02:06 PM

Patriot missile?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Patriot missile is designed, not to kill people at all, but to bring down missiles fired by people trying to kill us.

That's why most of Saddam Hussein's "SCUDS" didn't reach their targets, ian't it?

Sounds defensive from where I'm standing!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 03:16 PM

hello musket - i agree with you on that one! i always consider myself very patriotic, largely through some of the things you mention. i love the countryside, the wildlife, the taking the piss, the pubs, the radical tradition, the music, the literature, the eccentrics and all that. i have no time for the establishment or the monarchy - but can easily pretend they have no place in my country.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 03:18 PM

Oh, and the USA Patriot Act is one of the more oppressive pieces of legislation to come from the U.S. Congress in recent years...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 03:26 PM

Oh, and I'd like to post a little tribute to Musket's last post:

He is an Englishman!
For he himself has said it,
And it's greatly to his credit,
That he is an Englishman!
That he is an Englishman!
For he might have been a Roosian,
A French, or Turk, or Proosian,
Or perhaps Itali-an!
Or perhaps Itali-an!
But in spite of all temptations
To belong to other nations,
He remains an Englishman!
For in spite of all temptations, etc.

...the Devil made me do it...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 03:48 PM

Joe Offer: "Oh, and the USA Patriot Act is one of the more oppressive pieces of legislation to come from the U.S. Congress in recent years..."


Yes!..and who was the author, or one of the principle authors of the 'Patriot Act'?....

...none other than Joe Biden, in the mid nineties!


Now, that being said, Was the passage and support of the ACA, aka Obamacare, passed and supported out of patriotism??

Simple question...simple answer...


GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 04:39 PM

No, not when you throw shit against the wall to see who salutes, Gust. Mixed metaphors are here simply to illustrate your brand of discourse. Slippery and inconclusive, always good for an argument.

Bill Summary & Status, 109th Congress (2005 - 2006) H.R.3199

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Jim McLean
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 04:49 PM

Dominic Behan's song The Patriot Game says it all. Conned by "patriotism" but still believing in an independent, republican Ireland, and opposed to John Bull's other island, English hegemony. The song shows one can believe in independence from Britain, actually die for it, but ignore the flag waving "patriotism" be it the Saltire or the Union flag of team GB.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:29 PM

Perhaps GfS can explain what is so terribly wrong with the availability of affordable health care.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:40 PM

""Patriotism, when it wants to make itself felt in the domain of learning, is a dirty fellow who should be thrown out of doors.""

Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860) German philosopher.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:45 PM

"UK citizens enjoy equality of opportunity, enshrined in law."

But never in practice!......and the "law" has been proved to be an ass!
In the good old UK, you are as equal as your bank balance dictates, or your value to the economic system.
Todays scandal of bank rate rigging is a powerful example, a law for the rich and a law for the poor......the love of ones native land is beyond their reach, nurture it.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:48 PM

Stilly River Sage: "No, not when you throw shit against the wall to see who salutes, Gust. Mixed metaphors are here simply to illustrate your brand of discourse. Slippery and inconclusive, always good for an argument.

Arkie: "Perhaps GfS can explain what is so terribly wrong with the availability of affordable health care."

Well, either you felt it was coming, or tried to avoid the obvious....

Check out THIS 'patriotism'!!

I gather 'so-called liberals' either hate patriotism....or think it's stupid.....along with the stupid people they intentionally deceive..

...is being arrogant, patriotic??

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:57 PM

well i'm a patriot. i like the place. i love every place i ever lived.

i love the flat parts of lincolnshire where i was born. i loved Brum where i worked as a teacher. all the kids i taught in erdington, handsworth, perry barr. i grew to love all the places where i gigged from |Mancheter to lincoln. York to Northampton. they're all fucking beautiful. plus a lot of other places.

how could you not love your country?

where i live now, near Dorchester is incredibly beautiful.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:58 PM

""I guess the definition of a lunatic is a man surrounded by them.""

Ezra Pound (1885-1972)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:01 PM

the trouble with Schopenhauer, he never bought chips down chip alley in Skegness....


if he had, he would know what it is to fall in love unconditionally with a place.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 07:30 PM

Unclear on the distinction: Don't conflate "patriotism" with "nationalism". Being "proud" of whatever country you happen to have been born in, has got nothing to do with being a "patriot" - being a "patriot" and being "patriotic" has got a great deal more to do with what you as an individual can do to making your country a better place. "

I think being "proud" of something you didn't accomplish makes no sense. You can't be proud to be black, or gay, or American, if you were born that way. Mom, who survived WWII to emigrate and change nationalities, now she could be proud to be American, whether you call it Patriotism or Nationalism or Jingoism. I can't, I lucked into it.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:05 PM

""the trouble with Schopenhauer, he never bought chips down chip alley in Skegness....
if he had, he would know what it is to fall in love unconditionally with a place.""


I suspect Schopenhauer watched his calorie count closely,   most likely only going to the frituur about twice a month-thus avoiding unecessary lard and duck fat intake.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:11 PM

Every nation has its adherents who point with equal justification to their best bits. For example, a long sojourn in Brussels has taught me just how appalling UK chips are: they're a studied science in Belgium. Yet Al loves them. Perhaps both are right. Chips aren't fritjes, and they aren't frites, and frites aren't French Fries, let alone matchstick Freedom Fries.
There are parts of Breughel's Pajottenland which entirely rival Constable's Flatford, and...well, my point is that the list is long, and all it means is we're parochial and should find companionship with the others who find the same elsewhere. Which is rather an argument against this kind of Flanders and Swann Patriotism: to claim otherwise is simply a sign you've not looked elsewhere to find the same.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 10:36 PM

Big Al Whittle, to my mind, loving each place you have lived and being in awe of their beauty is not patriotism. There are many, many beautiful things and places. Where I live now and have for the last 26+ years is the most gorgeous, geographically speaking, of any place I have seen - it is green and mountainous, it has the ocean at its front door, the air is sweet and clear, the water sweet and chill- but I recognize the beauty of deserts in which I have spent time and I have been in awe of beautiful old buildings and even the sweep of the roadways emanating from them.

Patriotism, I think, refers to political matters.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: olddude
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 11:42 PM

Patriotism hurts a lot, you end up with scars and steel and stuff like that and a tad crazy

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: olddude
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 11:51 PM

Did I mention you don't sleep much either

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 03:26 AM

Hey Joe!

Too bloody true mate. I have right of residency in your esteemed country and if I took it up I could apply to go through that little ceremony with the flag and ironically less IRS hassle than I get as an "alien with assets."

But as you quoted, I remain an Englishman. To be pedantic, I remain British, because the former legally distinct countries that make up The UK are one sovereign country. I insist on the distinction on the basis that some people claim to be patriotic yet don't wish to be British. I can't speak for their sanity mind....

Al! The Lingalonga between Skeggy and Ingoldmells. Now you're talking when it comes to chippies. Did you know I once got kicked out of The Coral Beach clubhouse for singing? Takes some doing to be barred from there but I managed it.

Mind you, I'd had a sniff of the barmaid's apron so calling me up to the karaoke wasn't a wise move on their part. Threatening me not to sing the parody version of Green Green Grass of Home was hopeful on their part. Quite a few no necks in the room that night.

When you're tired of Skeggy you are tired of life.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 12:54 PM

I really don't see the distiction between nationalism, patriotism, and jingoism. I like the third word best, it seems to indicate the right amount of "and you aren't" that appears missing in the first two "we are great" attitudes. They are all divisive and harmful.

That said, I think the USA has the best idea for how to run a country. Too bad we're making such a horrible hash out of the actual execution of the great idea of E Pluribus Unum and Government Of The People. But that doensn't make *Americans* better than anybody else. Especially those making the horrible hash.

And I'm awfully glad to have been born with American citizenship.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 01:25 PM

Well, is this a mondegreen or what?

I thought the last line of Phil Och's Power and Glory was "glory shall rest on a song, on a song" - but it is apparently "glory shall rest on us all, on us all" - I have to say I like mine better!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 02:15 PM

"" I think the USA has the best idea for how to run a country. ""

Curious, outside of being on the US of A team, what specifically leads you to this type of broad conclusion, versus the various ideas among the many different forms of democratic governments in the world? Is it based on a detailed analysis, with a specific criteria? I ask this because patriotism often leads to a variety of poorly reasoned beliefs/thoughts?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 02:29 PM

"" I think the USA has the best idea for how to run a country""

Beyond patriotism associated with being on team USA, I am curious on what reasoning/criteria and comparisons (among world democratic governments) brought you to this belief/conclusion? Forming a free and democratic country was hardly a unique idea hatched in the USA a few hundred years ago?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 02:42 PM

Oops, double post-first one seemed notto take. Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 02:59 PM

"I really don't see the distiction between nationalism, patriotism, and jingoism."

The distinction was made by George Orwell in his essay Notes on Nationalism in 1945 (reprinted in England Your England)

He summarises his arguement:

""Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By 'patriotism' I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 03:17 PM

Jingoism - the feelings and beliefs of people who think that their country is always right and who are in favor of aggressive acts against other countries.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 03:40 PM

posted on a previous thread on patriotism. Settle in. It's fairly long.

=====

Patriotism. Tricky subject. I can understand it in a sense—a sort of affinity with the area in which random chance determined that one would be born, especially if one lived in that location for a time. But I have never understood the fanatical adherence some people have to a plot of land.

I have lived in Seattle off and on almost all my life, but I spent my first nine years in Southern California—Pasadena, to be exact. In the mid-1980s, my wife and I flew to Long Beach (which, like Pasadena, could be regarded as a suburb of the sprawling Los Angeles megalopolis) to visit friends for a week or two. When we stepped off the plane at the Long Beach airport, suddenly the feel of the air, the temperature, the smells, the sight of tall palm trees—I had this strange feeling that I had "returned home." My reaction when I got off the plane was immediate and visceral. Yet, during the many decades that I have lived in the Pacific Northwest, I can't say that I really missed Southern California. And when I got off the plane a week or so later at the Seattle-Tacoma airport, I had that same feeling I'd felt in Long Beach. I had "returned home."

During my grade school years in California, along with the usual curriculum (readin', writin', 'rithmetic), I was also instructed in a number of patriotic practices, such as the flag code (proper and respectful handling of the flag, when to display it, etc.), and was required to memorize such things as the Pledge of Allegiance and the words to "The Star-Spangled Banner." I received an extra credit gold star for drawing the American flag with colored pencils, with the Pledge of Allegiance carefully printed beneath it.

The flag, the Pledge of Allegiance, the national anthem, are the external trappings—the ritual—of what we refer to as patriotism. Some folks regard these ritualistic aspects as sacrosanct and never seem to get beyond them to what those ritual practices are supposed to represent (a not uncommon in other areas as well). I began to learn what these things meant some years later in high school. My American history teacher was excellent. Along with the usual high points, he did not shy away from such things as slavery and what led up to the Civil War, and treatment of Native Americans. He also taught civics classes, in which we studied the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. One important lesson that came across was that when the country went wrong, it was generally because it failed to observe the principles stated in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

If one is well-acquainted with the Constitution, a little gimlet-eyed observation reveals that some of our elected national leaders, despite taking an oath to preserve and protect the Constitution upon entering office, did not and do not always abide by that oath. This was (is) generally in order to benefit some private interests with which they were associated or to which they felt some obligation. In fact, it often appears to be something of a game. How far can they depart from the Constitution and the Bill of Rights before the citizens noticed and protested?

Well—quite a distance, it appears. Lobbying has become a commonly accepted practice in American politics. For "lobbying," read "bribery." Why is this tolerated?

I kept hearing that "America is the greatest country in the world." And, indeed, it has some fine achievements in its history. The stated principles on which the country was founded are admirable—and were indeed ground-breaking at the time they were adopted. But if one examines aspects of the country's history that most high school teachers are reluctant to talk about, and if one is aware of the continuing revelations from "whistle-blowers" about how some of our elected officials and our government agencies really operate, it more than establishes that "the greatest country in the world" has a very dark side. That dark side, motivated by greed and power-lust, callously disregards the plight of the country's weakest and neediest citizens in order to pander to the richest and most powerful. And it engages in bullying and exploitive behavior toward other countries around the world, and then either conceals it or wraps it in the flag in order to hoodwink American citizens into accepting it, usually in the name of "national security."

This emotional mantra, "America is the greatest country in the world," blinds many people to the fact that there are older and wiser countries from whom we could learn much. For example, a comparison of the allocation of tax revenues that the United States government spends on such things as education, health, the military, etc., with what other countries spend is very revealing, especially if one also compares rates of infant mortality, longevity, the availability of quality health care to all citizens, quality of education, standard of living—and satisfaction with life in general (last I heard, Denmark leads here), reveals the uncomfortable fact that, by almost every index, America can hardly be considered as "the greatest country in the world."

If we feel that other countries should embrace the "American way of life," trying to cram it down their throats with the butt of a rifle is not the way to go about it. First of all, we need to abandon that jingoistic mantra and do an agonizing reappraisal of just what our "American way of life" amounts to, and see how it compares with that in the U. K., in France, in Germany, Norway, Sweden, the rest of Europe, in other parts of the world such as Japan, Australia. . . .

There is a simple principle:   if we think other countries should embrace our way of life, then our way of life needs to be admirable and desirable enough so they want to embrace it. We should lead, not by force, not by admonition, but by example. If our hubris as Americans is so great that we feel like we need to be parents to the rest of the world, then there is a valuable lesson in parenting in a work of fiction:   To Kill a Mockingbird, by Harper Lee. Atticus Finch knew that if his children were to grow up to be moral persons, then he had to be that kind of person himself.

I recently heard of a small Central American country (one of the countries usually characterized as a "banana republic" ruled by a petty military dictator) where the democratically elected president and governing body determined that their relations with both their citizens and their neighbors were sufficiently stable and friendly that they had no need of military forces, so they disbanded their military and applied the money saved to improving their educational system.

"But we need our military!" you say. "Why?" say I. "Because of the terrorists! Because of the people in the world who hate America!" you answer. But I then respond:   "Perhaps we should ask the terrorists, 'Why do you hate us so much?' And then we should listen carefully to their answer."

The true patriot is often labeled by others as being unpatriotic. The true patriot is often confronted by the exasperated remark, "Well, if you don't like it here in America, why don't you go somewhere else?" Well, maybe that's not such a bad question. A lot of Americans are descendants of people who emigrated from countries that were tyrannical or oppressive. Many people emigrated from Germany in the 1930s. So that's always an option. But of course that means there would be one less person who sees what's wrong and can help attempt to set things right.

The true patriot is loyal to the moral principles and the stated ideals upon which the country was founded. Not to the elected officials. Especially when those elected officials stray from those principles and ideals. Elected officials, upon entering office, take an oath to uphold those principles and ideals, and it is the moral obligation of the true patriot to call them on it if they depart from their oath. And to keep calling them on it, in the company of other patriots, until they are either shamed into returning to those principles or are replaced by other elected officials who will.

On a travel program on the radio a few days ago, the interviewer asked a travel writer why it is that a particular European country's government seems to be especially responsive to the needs of its citizens. "Because," said the travel writer, "they have a long history of throwing out corrupt or unresponsive leaders. Elected officials are afraid of what the citizens might do if they don't toe the line."

A true patriot is not someone who is rooted to a particular plot of land. A true patriot is one who adheres to a set of principles and ideals. And when and if the country fails to live up to those principles and ideals, the true patriot takes a stand, cries "foul!" and demands that its elected officials either return to those principles or be replaced.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 03:43 PM

M y Grandma used to sing a Boer war song

we do not want to fight
but by jingo if we do
we've got the might, we've got the men
we've got the money too

I've always suspected that that was the root of jingoism. it springs from a mistaken view that our way of doings is unquestionably the best. its only in retrospect we can see that the England of the 1890's was a stew of exploitation, hypocrisy and snobbery.

no doubt, theres a lot of things wrong with England now - still you like the things you like.

i like that if i am ill, i get help. i like the fact, i can go out with a guitar and entertain most people, most places, most nights of the week. i feel safe here, and the drains work.

if there is something wrong with the place. i must be part of what's wrong. if the IRA and Al Quaeda are right wanting to blow us up - then i am part of the reason.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 03:49 PM

In general, I think of patriotism as a virtue, as concern for the welfare of one's community and pride in the goodness found in that community. I think it's a good thing to appreciate purple mountains and amber waves and (generally) peaceful ethnic diversity as precious gifts, and to revere a flag as a symbol of those blessings. People like the "Tea Party Patriots" redefine the word into something obnoxious, but I think the basic meaning of "patriotism" is still a positive thing.

I see "jingoism" and "nationalism" as the evil counterparts of the virtue of patriotism.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 06:36 PM

We don't mind the bear, but whilst we're British true
The Russians will not have Constantinople!

I forgot all about that song Al. A band I was in, we used to sing it. I think we learned it from Strawhead. It was a Crimea War song, not Boer, hence the words in the rest of the chorus.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 06:44 PM

I'm half wondering whether Gorbachev's analysis might not mean the entire thing's out of date. He postulates that the extremism nowadays is actually coming from the commercial world fighting amongst itself, for example the Russian oligarchs driving Putin and the US - well, it hardly needs saying. The position in the Muslim world's less clear, but it does look very much as though it's the Arab business circle driving the terrorist agenda too. Bin Laden is a major Saudi business, I had a near run-in this summer with one of the Al-Khalifas (Bahrein/Dubai) who's wanted for human rights abuse.
If so, will we end up in the Japanese position of corporate sell-out for simple survival?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:10 PM

Or we could follow Mrzzy and buy them all felines so they can emulate certain James Bond baddies. That way it could become catriotism.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 10:11 PM

I am at a loss (pun intended since my cat just died, sigh) as far as your logic is concerned, where do I advocate multiple cat buying? Aren't too many cats a catastrophe? Or is that what you replace a missing cat with? Castriotism is when they take your balls and you're proud of it? Crastiotism is preferring to live north of the Wall?

The idea to which I refer was no divine right to rule. Gov of the people by the people (pity some of the people are such dicks). Great idea. Would work if everyone were nice like my dad.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 02:55 AM

My alleged greyhound has a catriotism policy but luckily is too lazy (and these days getting too slow) to put it into practice. The ginger Tom who sits outside the french windows preening himself in view of the poor bugger can carry on his taunting with impunity.

A friend sent me a birthday card with a cat pulling faces at a dog through a sliding glass door leading to a garden. The caption was the dog thinking "I'll give him another minute to see if he realises the door is open."

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 03:23 AM

There's two kinds of patriotism: the kind where it's Us and Our Place and Them, and Yeats's kind as he stood in London hearing the water of Inisfree flowing under the concrete: "I hear it in the deep heart's core".

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 06:57 AM

""Gov of the people by the people""

Though the specific words may have a USA source, I suspect the idea/concept is hardly historically unique to the USA . However, words are cheap and the concept is complex to implement, in a pure form, by any government.

Patriotism fuels many myths, as citizens tend to look inward, rather than outward.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 06:58 AM

As Seamus Heaney said about Yeats....you just want to say, come off it mate!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 07:26 AM

Dick Gaughan wrote a song ripping the piss out of The USA idea of "by the people, for the people. "

By the people for the people
That was Lincoln's vow
But what the hell would Abraham Lincoln say
If he could see America now?

The first verse goes-

I heard a lot of talk about the land of the free
So I went to see it for myself
What I found was misery and poverty
In a land of incredible wealth.
They have a thing called a constitution
To defend their civil right
That's provided you have plenty of money
Are protestant, male and white.

Meanwhile, the mid term elections made great TV here. Lots of our comedy shows have been screening Republican elevtion adverts, so we could all laugh at how incredibly stupid American voters must ge. I particularly liked the woman who is now a senator who castrates pigs and can't wait to get to Washington. Oh, and the rednecks saying America was built on the bible and the gun.

Without exception, the only comment afterwards from any of our TV presenters has been "God bless America."

Not a good day for the nice people over there I know well, call friends and frankly, feel sorry for...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 07:27 AM

Someone said, probably a Frenchman, that "Patriotism is nothing more than the memory of good things we ate in childhood."

And the only way to counter catriotism is with dogmatism.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 07:30 AM

""I love a dog. He does nothing for political reasons.""

Will Rogers

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 10:13 AM

Will Rogers clearly hasn't met my alleged greyhound then.

If he shits in the scrub grass rather than the farm track, he gets a gravybone. He has started laying a small shit, getting his treat then hobbling a few yards before evacuating half his bodyweight and looking up expectantly for his second gravybone.

Seems like every politician I have come across....

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 11:23 AM

""Did you hear about the visually impaired man who went bungee jumping? Scared the hell out of the dog.""

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe_F
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 09:08 PM

In principle & for the long run, I am a wishywashy Wellsian one-worlder. For the time being, however, evidence compels me to the conclusion that nations are necessary evils, and that the one I happen to have been born into is one of the most necessary & least evil. To people all over the world, it means wealth & freedom; to me, also, it means home. None of those things is to be despised.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 11:34 PM

I am all for a planetary government of all the people for all the people.
It bugs me when I hear politicians talking about Americans having rights to, say, not be hungry, when that isn't Americans who (ought to) have those rights.

I am all for a lot of stuff.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 01:00 AM

So what if your 'patriotism' is being confused with fervently believing an ideological lie, hook line and sinker?...and then calling people 'haters'(of some sort), who don't buy into your delusion.....you know, sorta like 'so-called liberals conservatives' ....or like what is so often happening on here??

Stick to the music!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 03:53 AM

Hi, GfS -
I would hope that patriotism could cross ideological lines, that people of different political persuasions could put that aside and sing "America the Beautiful" or "God Save the King Queen" without the baggage of ideology - but that seems to happen less and less often nowadays.

I was registered with the Boy Scouts of America for thirty years. Patriotism is an important thing in the Scouts, and I generally felt very comfortable with the attitude toward patriotism in the Scouts. Toward the end, though (about 1990), I became disillusioned. The Scouts became more closely identified with religious and political conservatism, and I began to feel I didn't fit in anymore. The Girl Scouts didn't follow that path in the U.S. - but they still emphasize patriotism.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 04:40 AM

We kick 'em out of scouts at 16 or so.... 😎

I wouldn't expect anything too deep and meaningful from Goofus. I am not joking when I mention how comedy TV programmes over here get plenty of mileage out of the loony right and Jesus & gun brigade over your way.

Reading the likes of Goofus, blaming "liberals" for existing just puts context into our evening entertainment....

Mind you, we too have those who get ideas from the same PR companies and the latest stupidity is an idea by ministers (won't happen) to have children saluting the flag each day at school. The thinking of our conservative idiots being that it is a solution to Islamic radicalisation.

Patriotism to a lump of geography or patriotism to a perceived lifestyle is still patriotism and still there to be exploited by the clever bastards Goofus and his redneck mates follow but don't understand.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Raedwulf
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 07:37 AM

I'm a little late to this thread, being only an occasional visitor these days, so I haven't read more than the first few posts. My apologies if this has already been said, especially if it's been better said than I'm about to attempt, but those first few posts provoke me to offer the following for consideration...

"I am proud of my country because..." That, to me is patriotism, and I see nothing wrong with that. We evolved as a social animal, small groups. Family, which doesn't have to mean blood relation, is what we're wired for. Tribe / clan / folk we can cope with - those we don't know but, given that we naturally label the world around us, those that we can label as "those that are generally like us", whatever the criteria for "like us" may be. Going beyond that is more difficult. In my experience, it's only a small minority of people that can rise above family & folk, and view the whole of humanity more or less without prejudice.

The thing about patriotism for me though, is that it has to be not only "I am proud of my country because...", but also "I am well aware of the shit things we've done as well". It isn't patriotism that is the problem; it's nationalism - "My country is BETTER than every else because..." THAT, I think, is when the sense of "we've done a lot of shit things too" is lost, history gets whitewashed and we can do whatever we want because we're obviously superior...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 08:40 AM

Interesting perspective Rardwulf.

I notice that some feel more patriotic about their heritage (and local culture) than their country. I often detect that this frequently reflects some bitterness for past negative events. However, I also see people whose ancesters were treated very poorly, but can rise above this and remain both proud of their heritage and their nation-while not diminishing the historic wrongs. Native peoples in North Ameria are an example (and, in some cases the wrongs are not entirely in the past).

I am often puzzled by people who hold grudges against other groups for events that occured hundred of years, or more, in the past, such as in the Middle Eas, where some groups seem more patriotic about their religion and "tribe", versus their nation, (whose boundaries were determined by outside forces).

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 09:59 AM

> the one I happen to have been born into is one of the most necessary & least evil. To people all over the world, it means wealth & freedom; to me, also, it means home. None of those things is to be despised.

Hard to dispute, but many will try.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 10:04 AM

""To people all over the world, it means wealth....""

Who once said that economics is behind almost everything in life:)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 10:44 AM

allright we'll pretend we're like everyone else, but actually we're just being modest.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,John P
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 10:45 AM

Nationalism, which many in the power-mad set refer to as patriotism, is inherently uncivilized. The history of civilization is one of smaller groups combining with larger groups for the purpose of public safety. Tribe to village to city to region to state to country. Here is the US, the Constitution requires the states to behave in a civilized manner with each other. We can assume that if there wasn't a federal government to settle the differences, any given state would go to war with any other as soon as they couldn't resolve their differences themselves. But they end up with a ruling from Congress or the Supreme Court and they have to accept it, whether they like it or not.

Until we have a world government that can force the compliance of all nations we will have war. Wouldn't it be nice if Israel and Palestine had to take their differences to the world court and then had to just accept the ruling that came down? Everyone could just get on with their lives even if they disagreed with the decision. People who take up arms because they disagree with a ruling would create a police situation instead of a war, mostly because the entire rest of the world would back the court's decision. It would be sort of like if the city of Detroit decided to declare war on Ann Arbor. They wouldn't get very far. They know that the United States army would land on them so fast and so hard that they don't even think about going to war with each other. They sue each other and accept the final verdict. Much less loss of life.

This would, of course, require that the United States and every other country give up their sovereignty. Until we find a way to do that we will be uncivilized.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Raedwulf
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 01:47 PM

I think, John P, even if we don't say it in quite the same way, yeah, we're very much on the same wavelength. And Ed & probably several others (if I read back through all the posts) are much the same.

I'm sure it's a quote from Mary Poppins, or something similar, but "Wouldn't it be nice if we could all be nice to each other?" ;-) Alas, I certainly don't always rise to such an aspiration!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 01:51 PM

Patriotism is the mistaken notion that the accident of the geopolitical location of one's birth has higher meaning than membership of the human race and citizenship of Planet Earth.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 02:08 PM

Where I said "when that isn't Americans who" above, I meant it isn't JUST Americans who. Sorry.

What michaelr said. That's why I'm all for immigrants being proud of their new nationality, but not anybody who was born anywhere being proud of where they were born.

Glad they were born there, yes. I am certainly lucky to have been born American.

Proud of what my *government* has done? If I were, I hope I'd be proud of the *people* -the ones IN that government, for doing something right.

We are so polarized (now that we are a big group thanks to the media imo) that it's hard to be proud of fellow Americans since half of them are apparently blatant idiots no matter which side of any issue you find yourself!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Thompson
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 05:24 PM

"Come off it, mate" sounds a little too London for Heaney. Did he say that of Yeats? When and where?

As for immigrants being "proud of their new nationality", oh, that's nothing to do with patriotism for me. Happy to live in their new country, yes, fine. But "proud of their new nationality" sounds suspiciously like people on their way to enrol in an army to kill others.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 05:44 PM

i'll look up it what SH said, about Yeats on a dvd i bought from the Irish national library.

but i'm halfway through another dvd. come off it mate was a condensation of what he said

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 11:29 PM

Proud to BE american, given that it was achieved rather than lucked into. Those of us born here can't be proud of it. Is what I meant. Mom would certainly not enrol in any armies despite being proud to have made it out the concentration camps, out from behind the iron curtain, over the ocean before planes were common, and through the red tape of immigration at Ellis Island. That is something to be proud of. My being popped out of her a few years later is not something *I* can claim as an achievement, so I can't be proud of it having happened here.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 12:42 AM

John P., the City of Detroit wouldn't get very far in a war against Ann Arbor, because in this day and age, Ann Arbor has more money.

But I like your idea of a world government that is able to settle disagreements by methods other than warfare. I wonder if it would work. I wonder why it wouldn't work....

-Joe, Detroit Native-

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 02:16 AM

World court eh? What would that do to prevent large countries propping up one side in disputes between two others? I love the simple naivety going on here. Almost cute.

Lobbying and money in Washington, coupled with USA refusal to support UN is keeping the Israel / Palestine problem going.

That's the problem with world courts in any sense. The USA foreign policy is to listen to lobby and self interest whilst claiming to be international arbiters.

You took up the mantle from us. We used to be as bad and many lament our lack of influence even now. Strange old world.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 05:08 PM

Joe Offer: "Hi, GfS -
I would hope that patriotism could cross ideological lines, that people of different political persuasions could put that aside and sing "America the Beautiful" or "God Save the King Queen" without the baggage of ideology - but that seems to happen less and less often nowadays."

Yes I agree!!...I think that when lies, misrepresentations and deceit, are employed by either 'religion' or politics, to achieve the personal goals, for those promoting it, then the subscribing peoples who belong to either group, become spiritually and morally malnourished, and then disillusioned.

We see that in every moment we live these days, and instead of CORRECTING those errors, we 'entrust' our confidence (a.k.a. 'faith'), into the very purveyors of the deceptions, and in our 'pride', we promote fears of 'what if', instead of self examination, admitting that our 'egos' have been misplaced, and making the necessary personal adjustments.
Are we so 'taken in' by our own pride(s) and vanities, that we have rendered ourselves 'too stupid' to find a way to bridge the differences, and find the common ground???...That we, after all, are living organisms, living together, on a ball in space, trying to survive. It is NOT necessary to manipulate each other, either privately, or corporately, on this ball, spinning in space, for the benefit of an elite, primarily, while excluding others, and not hurt the whole, of which we all are a part...but then at that point, the proselytizing of that very truth, would then fall into the category, of 'religion'.....the only thing wrong, is that many 'religions' have turned into 'the blind leading the blind' with 'peace and love at ten dollars a pair...and as in the political world, they too 'sell you a fear'...and then promote themselves as being the 'only remedy'....

That being said, I don't think that people who 'water down the truth', for whatever reason, be it in 'religion' or politics, should be given much credibility....and we are NOT THAT stupid, as not to be able to come to terms with ourselves, and the community we share existence with...on this ball, spinning in space....

The unspoken '800 pound gorilla in the room' is that in the political world, there is a notion that THEY are the ones to reign supreme, and they must 'eradicate' any influence(s), that 'religion' may have to offer....notwithstanding that we have our sense of justice and mercy, from living in a culture, whose basis is rooted in fairness, whose principles were bannered, in those...but the 'source' is now our enemy?????????

As you previously have pointed out, LOVE, IS the mindset, to ANY higher understanding...and along with that, the politicos exploit patriotism, and couple it to their agendas...while 'religions', hide behind 'Love'....and hide what it is and can do.
Politics may TRY and promote fairness....but NOBODY can legislate LOVE......but they can 'pretend'......

John P: "Until we have a world government that can force the compliance of all nations we will have war."

See?? ..." ..force the compliance of all nations.."

OK, you want to 'force compliance'???.....the people to whom you do that to will cry, "Rape"...and accuse each other of abuse.....just take a look around!

Lighter: "... the one I happen to have been born into is one of the most necessary & least evil. To people all over the world, it means wealth & freedom"...

One might examine, 'How we measure 'wealth''...because if it is measured solely with materialism, pursuing it might just cost one their freedom....as an individual, a culture..a society..a nation...
"In America, people have confused the 'pursuit of happiness' with the 'pursuit of material gain'.
(I am not refuting your post)

Musket: "I wouldn't expect anything too deep and meaningful from Goofus. I am not joking when I mention how comedy TV programmes over here get plenty of mileage out of the loony right and Jesus & gun brigade over your way.
Reading the likes of Goofus, blaming "liberals" for existing just puts context into our evening entertainment...."


Self explanatory....

Musket, Have you considered seeking professional help?? Not EVERYTHING is considered through the prism of 'talking points'....

Have a Great Day All!!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 05:11 PM

Joe Offer: "-Joe, Detroit Native-"

Oh, NOW I get it......My condolences!
(Wink while grinning)

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 05:47 PM

Patriotism surely only applies to contries who have a fatherland. However, the US, being based around Columbia, is surely a Motherland, and so should not have a concept of Patriotism, but Maternalism.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 11:17 PM

matriotism....?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 11:58 PM

Yeah, can you be a matriot?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 12:01 AM

(didn't mean to click submit) a filiot? An avunculot? That last one sounds, somehow, lewd and child molesty.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 04:38 AM

A strutalot?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 01:22 PM

Well, judging from the posts, it looks like people don't really know what 'patriotism' is. You'd think from their posts that they confuse 'patriotism' with holding the 'party line'.....even when they are NOT 'patriotic'.....

...sorta like the difference between a 'statesman' and a 'politician'...
....and sorta like a clergyman as opposed to a 'spiritual' man.

Oh well, that's showbiz!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 01:45 PM

See my rather long post above, at 13 Nov 14 - 03:40 PM.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 01:52 PM

I think I do know what it means, an' I'm agin it.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 02:23 PM

I like merlot.
But, there are also some good whites that I also enjoy.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 03:24 PM

Goofus as usual, displaying pratriotism...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,a h melvichou
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 07:31 PM

Surely when you get to your 50s you know exactly what you love about your country.currently late night radio.i have decided to livin my own Country stretches form Fleetwood in the south to Carlisle inthe middle. Embra is admin and government city and Glasgow is party city we will take west
minster in may or have a great time trying
..YES.   we will.look north for inspiration

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 08:02 PM

I seem to recall that God Bless America was the song that so enraged Woody Guthrie that he riposted with This Land Is Your Land, an infinitely superior song.

There is no nation or establishment or monarch or institution or boss that deserves your allegiance as of right. They should have to earn it first, and earning it is the most difficult thing in the world. You were born where you were born by sheer accident. Patriotism is a bit like prayer. If you adhere to your nation, unthinkingly, your thoughts are probably moving in the direction of diminishing nations other than your own. If you pray for some advantage, you are automatically praying for someone else's disadvantage. Hardly surprising, then, that God is so often invoked in patriotic rants (God Bless America, God Save The Queen). Patriotism and God make for good bedfellows. Patriotism leads to xenophobia, sectarianism and racism. Don't love your country above all others until you've sorted it out first!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 10:25 PM

well obviously no one agrees with me. i think a fondness for one country is enough to call yourself a patriot.
if you hate the sodding place and its people and traditions. tp the extent that you're not really bothered if they come to harm.

i guess you're unpatriotic.

where you would put someone like Kim Philby , who professed that he loved the country so much - he wanted it to be a communist state, and went on to betray his country - i don't know.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 04:27 AM

bit like folk music - different people think its different things. there are some people who claim there is a definition - but the blind alley they end up in should tell them that they're talking shit.

but as far as i'm concerned, if you love England - whatever mad conclusion you come to - you are a patriot.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 05:02 AM

The only problem with that is where to put the boundaries.

I love The UK? I love England? I love my county? I love my town or village? I love my street? I love my home? I love my bedroom? I love to bonk?

Thats the problem with love. At the end of the day, it's all about shagging.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 06:14 AM

On a slightly more serious note, I look at it this way.

If I wished people to allow themselves to be shafted by government, the first thing I would do is make them feel a sense of gratitude to their country. It makes ordering them around much easier.

I would give this phenomenon a name.

Patriotism.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw, quasi-patriot of several nations
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 06:55 AM

What does "I love my country" actually mean? My country consists of the north Cornwall coast, Jimmy Savile, the Lake District, Thatcher's legacy, Devon glorious Devon, Nigel Farage, Doom Bar, the BNP, the Yorkshire Dales, the Owls, Liverpool FC, Michael Gove, the Beeb, Keith A. and cricket. My two favourite places to go, Spain and Italy, are basket cases. Bloody Nora. I don't know what to think.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 07:50 AM

Just hang onto that lovely thought about The Owls

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 11:07 AM

well you have to allow that some people, by their definition patriots. may be on the other side of the barricade to you.

people are patriots in their own way. and it may not be yours.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 11:19 AM

""people are patriots in their own way. and it may not be yours.""

And, unfortunately, even those who are seen by many as truly "evil" people throughout history and conflicts.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 10:56 PM

I hasgen to pint out that although many American here are pro world government, the united states remains independent and defiant of the world court and international law in general. this is of course an extension of the long anglo laissez faire capilatist military enterprise that started with monetizing slavery as long as possible, and with multiple genocides in Ireland(and in many imperial conquests), and has come to the American version of this laissez faire capitalism, now monetizing water, and farmers seeds, and eventually all the neccesities of life.

great job for the patriots and nationalists.the well armed partiots and nationalists

this in no way denigrates the struggle of national groups against foreign oppression, but as a rule patriotism and nationalism are a great evil.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 12:49 AM

ollaimh : "I hasgen to pint out that...."

Make mine a double!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 06:08 AM

Bit like being "patriotic" to your religion, forgetting that you only got your religion by sheer accident of birth. Spot the difference.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 10:28 AM

You got your 'religion' by accident..at birth?????????????????

Says who???

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 10:44 AM

"Omissions are not accidents."     
 Marianne Craig Moore

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 12:15 PM

Says me for starters Goofus. Some of us were born to rational parents, some to superstitious parents. Some born in areas where one religion forms the general superstition, some with others.

If you were born in Afghanistan you stand a good chance of Islam being the true path. If you were born in Dumbfuckistan, Christianity is the usual true path.

But some people in either place can be raised to be rational.

The vast majority if you live in Europe.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 05:55 PM

Muskbutt, You forgot to mention those who have found their 'religion' later in life, and 'converted' to something that they were not 'born into'......even, perhaps a 'spiritual revelation', that was NOT influenced by the religion of the family that they were born into.

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 06:31 PM

More fool them.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 06:45 PM

One may adopt or convert to a particular religion later in life. But by the same token, a person can emigrate to another country and feel strongly patriotic toward the new, adopted country.

But for the vast majority of people, patriotism and religion ARE accidents of birth.

Guest from Sanity, do you always have to be an insulting smartass or is that just your nature? Accident of birth? Or did you convert to being a swine?

Gwynplaine (The Man who Laughs)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 07:16 PM

You obviously don't get around here much Guest.
GfS has been subjected to a stream of insults from a gang of trolls who have entertained us under the communal name of "Musket", for years.

Sanity only returns what is served to him.

The "Muskets" specialise in personal abuse, they have no time for reason or debate....read this thread and others to see their M.O.
Anyone who contradicts their mythology is immediately attacked.
Witness the obscenities aimed at Teribus and Keith on this thread.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 07:28 PM

Mystery afraid to post a name, Guest: "Guest from Sanity, do you always have to be an insulting smartass or is that just your nature? Accident of birth? Or did you convert to being a swine?"

Are you so stupid that you haven't noticed that what Akenaton just posted is true?????

..I guest the bullshit that gets flung around here, in the name of 'intelligence' brings it out.

Perhaps you should find some railroad tracks to walk along, till they end.

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 08:21 PM

""Only fools want to travel all the time. Sensible men want to arrive"".
Metternick

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 09:41 PM

Akhenaton, I have lurked on these threads long enough to know quite a bit about a lot of people. Including YOU.

Guest from Sanity has yet to post anything of substance, and he, she, or it dishes out nothing but insults and abuse. And gross misinformation on just about any subject. All one need do is read, (attempt to make sense out of), what he, she, or it posts.

Were it not so pathetic, it would be ample reason for my laughter.

Gwynplaine (The Man who Laughs)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 10:07 PM

Hi Don.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 11:33 PM

I guess when you are as brain-locked, as you appear to be, I don't think you'd recognize 'substance' if it hit you on the head, in broad daylight!

Happy now?

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 03:47 AM

""The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem."" - Captain Jack Sparrow,  Pirates Of The Caribbean

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 03:49 AM

Says Akenaton, possibly the most vile twisted apology for a human being ever to haunt these pages.

Homophobic, misogynist and illiterate all wrapped in one sorry package.

My mythology eh? Would that be the mythology that gay people shouldn't have to register and be subjected to invasive medical procedures against their will? That the marriage between two men or two women is as valid and loving as yours or mine? Could it be that I appear to be under the impression gay people in a loving relationship don't have "multiple partners.?"

Akenaton is a name he gives himself on the basis he cannot spell Akhenaton. Bigotry is a trait he exhibits on the basis he thinks the only people offended by it aren't of interest.

Goofus and he make a nice couple really.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 05:08 AM

And, now for something completely different BS powered cell phones. Plenty of fuel on here:)


Some completely different BS 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 06:57 AM

"The vast majority if you live in Europe."

If you mean atheists, they are still a minority.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 07:38 AM

No they are not Prat.

A couple of dozen people attend church out of a town of ten thousand on average. People are classified Christian based on being used to putting CofE on forms asking for it. Church of England claims numbers based on christenings.

Hardly anybody believes in magic these days. Churches lie and twist statistics according to The Archbishop of Canterbury, who wants, quite understandably, to count real numbers not extrapolations of weird assumptions. According to a vicar relative, I'm classed as Christian in some figures.

Most surveys show less than 1% of the population attend services for other than traditional events such as weddings etc.

You'll be telling us Jesus existed next 😹😹

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 08:17 AM

""You'll be telling us Jesus existed next ""

And, then trying to persuade us what BC really was intended to mean.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 11:50 AM

Ah, then there is the good ol' gawdfearin' murrca!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 06:35 PM

Musket the Silly: "You'll be telling us Jesus existed next"...

1 John 4:12..."No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."

John 13:35
"By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Not sure about any other of those 'religion's' criteria...nor what those who say there is no God mean!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 14 - 08:50 PM

If you really believe that, Guest from Sanity, then why do you spew so much hatred and contempt for others?

Gwynplaine

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 02:58 AM

Don't get the poor simple bugger confused between belief and understanding....

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 04:59 AM

Donald Guest...or Duck...or Firth: "If you really believe that, Guest from Sanity, then why do you spew so much hatred and contempt for others?"

Others??....Odd, that you only perceive 'hatred and contempt'...must be foremost in your head.....Oh, to answer your question..

Because, such rhetorically political correct niceties, don't seem to penetrate the thick skulls of those bent on living under a pile of politically programmed pig-shit...and do so, by deception, to cause divisions among the people, and do it for people who are bold-face lying to them....TOO!!!

....instead of me digging through your dome of pig-shit, why don't you just dig your own way out!.....(It's stink and messy)..I was just pointing the direction to some good clean fresh air, and pointing the way....

Good Luck...

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw, convert
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 05:07 AM

Thus endeth Guffers' first epistle to the Catters....

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 05:41 AM

Any chance of altering the word "first" to something more hopeful?

In he meantime, allow me.. No. Allow my dog, the good professor to explain religion to Goofus in a way he might understand.

"Woof! Woof! Grrrrrr. Woof!"*






* (Translation notes for everybody else.). A vet took my nuts away but that doesn't stop me trying to lick them. I think you will find in that everything you ever need to know about religion.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 05:49 AM

Musket, I have showed you the survey results to back up my stating the FACT that atheists are still a minority in Europe.
As ever, you just make baseless, unsupported assertions and demand to be believed, insulting anyone who questions you.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 05:53 AM

Musket: ""Woof! Woof! Grrrrrr. Woof!"*

* (Translation notes for everybody else.). A vet took my nuts away but that doesn't stop me trying to lick them. I think you will find in that everything you ever need to know about religion.""


I'm sure you fully understand.


GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 07:09 AM

A can't put my finger on the exact wording- but, I seem to recall that *God did say " be kind to others on the internet" .

(*note, I am not really sure which historic god it was)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw puzzled
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 07:48 AM

Huh? I don't recall Bill Shankly ever saying anything like that....

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 07:53 AM

The ultimate socialized country in the world is ???
Where is there is no excetionalism?
Would you like to live there?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:47 PM

There is nothing about living in a socialist country that prevents a person from being exceptional. Unless by "exceptional" you mean wealthy enough to exert undue influence on the government for your own advantage.

Sawzaw, that question smacks of Ayn Rand. Is that where you're coming from?

Gwynplaine

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guerst from Sanity
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 02:13 PM

No Don, unlike you, some people have sources that didn't come from fictional novels!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 02:28 PM

So you get your stuff from non-fictional novels, eh?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 03:11 PM

Goofball, if you don't think that Ayn Rand wields a hell of a lot of influence in politics today, you just haven't been paying attention.

In addition to her fiction (The Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged, and an early first novel, We, the Living) she wrote a lot of non-fiction, such as The Virtue of Selfishness and Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal, not to mention the lecture series her disciples, Nathaniel and Barbara Brandon delivered all over the country--and a magazine called "The Objectivist Newsletter" that was published for many years and may still be out there.

At least one national politician I know of insists that his staff read her works, and rumor has it that Rand Paul was named after her.

Ronald Reagan was powerfully influenced by the writings of Ayn Rand and that explains many of his policies, such as trying to privatize Social Security—and appointing Alan Greenspan as the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank. Alan Greenspan was a member of Ayn Rand's inner circle, which included the Brandons and a number of other prominent people, many of them politicians or who became politicians.

I am sufficiently acquainted with the influence Ayn Rand's writings have had on the current political climate to be apprehensive--and very alert.

You've just given more evidence of how totally clueless you really are.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 03:27 PM

Fucking hell, 51% of our village tried to get in the church last Sunday! Thanks for the heads up Keith! More room at the bar for the rest of us. Still, it would make s change from the 20 or so out of 9,000 or so that really turn up. Mrs Musket said the other week that with some visitors ringing, there were more people in the ringing chamber than the pews that week.

Do you really think the majority of people in The UK are insecure and believe in fairies?

Poor deluded sod. Not even The Archbishop of Canterbury is that delusional.

Considering we have state education and a high educational attainment, added to the fact there is no such thing as God, do you really think the majority are as thick as you?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 07:44 PM

I see no discussion here as in a forum. All i see is personal putdowns like a bunch of highschool kids trying to get one up oneach other.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 08:17 PM

Yeah, well, your one and only other contribution to the thread apart from this was virtually incomprehensible. You have three choices: (a) contribute; (b) whinge; (c) don't read it. Nighty night.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 12:03 AM

Well, Don..after reading your post, it would seem that the bankers are more of a problem than Ayn Rand...As stipulated by the Banking Act of 1935, the President appoints the seven members of the Board of Governors; they must then be confirmed by the Senate and serve for 14 years, and those guys are voted upon....one to be confirmed

So who is serving who? The bankers PRIMARY concern is their banks..Oh yeah, I didn't want it to slip by that the Federal Reserve is NOT a federal entity....it is a consortium, made up from private bankers ...and don't you think that the federal government has to cater to the Fed's policies, who, after all, control the money supply???..and what do they do??... they 'print'(or digitize) more fiat money, while an out of control spending spree has bankrupt the country...and, of course, the Fed CHARGES interest for their 'services' of printing all that fiat (read: worthless, unsecured) money.
So who's hustling who?...and then you want to blame Ayn Rand's novels????.....She's been dead and gone for a long time.

Oh well...

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 01:50 AM

Stilly River Sage: "No, not when you throw shit against the wall to see who salutes, Gust. Mixed metaphors are here simply to illustrate your brand of discourse. Slippery and inconclusive, always good for an argument.
Bill Summary & Status, 109th Congress (2005 - 2006) H.R.3199(Which is a link)..............

However, Joe Biden introduced this, which is the core of the 'Patriot Act"


Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995


Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995, US Senate bills S.390 and S.761.[1] Senator Joe Biden introduced the bill on behalf of the Clinton Administration on Feb. 10, 1995.[2][3] The bill was co sponsored by Senators Alfonse D'Amato, Dianne Feinstein, Robert J. Kerrey, Herb Kohl, Jon Kyl, Barbara A. Mikulski and Arlen Specter.[4] Representative Chuck Schumer sponsored the bill (H.R. 896) in the US House of Representatives.[3] Following closely on the heels of Executive Order 12947, prohibiting transactions with terrorists, President Clinton described the bill as a "comprehensive effort to strengthen the ability of the United States to deter terrorist acts and punish those who aid or abet any international terrorist activity in the United States" and requested "the prompt and favorable consideration of this legislative proposal by the Congress".[5]


It contained the following seven provisions:[6]

Title I: Substantive Criminal Law Enhancements

Title II: Immigration Law Improvements

Title III: Controls Over Terrorist Fund-Raising

Title IV: Convention on the Marking of Plastic Explosives

Title V: Nuclear Materials

Title VI: Procedural and Technical Corrections and Improvements

Title VII: Antiterrorism Assistance

According to the summary by President Clinton, the bill was intended to establish federal criminal jurisdiction over acts of international terrorism.[5] Civil liberty advocacy groups opposed the bill on the grounds that it would violate fundamental civil liberties, including the right to confront one's accuser.[3] Another source of opposition was the Government's ability to use evidence from secret sources in deportation proceedings for suspected terrorists.[3] During the debate over the Patriot Act of 2001 then Senator Joe Biden compared this bill to its 2001 counterpart stating "I drafted a terrorism bill after the Oklahoma City bombing. And the bill John Ashcroft sent up was my bill."[7]

Nice try, Stilly!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 02:15 AM

Goofballupagus doesn't have a clue!

"Who is John Galt?"

If you sort out the verbiage, John Galt (the hero of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, along with his small coterie of disciples) is no less than Nietzsche's Übermensch, the Superman that Adolf Hitler had in mind when he first made his move into politics in Germany and became Chancellor in 1933. And we know well THAT worked out!

The similarities between the views of Ayn Rand and her cast of "heroes" and Nietzche and his hypothetical "Superman" are just too clear to be missed by anyone paying attention.

Ayn Rand is very much the darling of the Libertarian Party (note: not Liberal Party). In fact, the Libertarian Party was initially formed by a group of people who had attended the twenty lecture series of lectures by Nathaniel Brandon on the "Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand."

Along with this, she is pretty much the patron saint of the Tea Party.

Her ideas could become the working plan for this country's future!

That's where we're going if we are not damned careful! Germany—in fact, Europe in general, along with the U. S.—had a few problems with advocates of ideas like those in the Thirties and early Forties….

Here it is in a nutshell:    Clicky.

Note the final sentence: "Unregulated capitalism is a superlatively moral system."

Oh?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 02:35 AM

Let's stop the running battle across threads, folks. The personal insults and mud slinging are what drive people away. Didn't your mothers ever tell you that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all?

SRS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 03:24 AM

She also might have said never keep quiet and not stand up to the sods.

If people didn't say "you are wrong, that is unacceptable," then women wouldn't have the vote, slavery and imperialism would be the norm, gay people would be second class citizens and free speech would be a luxury.

Do you really think it right to turn the other cheek when the most outrageous comments spew from the keyboards of disturbed people? As Steve said, you can ignore it. But for me, there isn't any point in having the BS section if it is just a mouthpiece for cut and paste crap with nobody laughing at it.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 06:14 AM

The thing is, just because you are angry and justifiably so, is no reason to lose your rag. Getting cross just wastes energy that could be used more effectively. In fact it's a way of strengthening your opponent.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 06:47 AM

But on the basis you can't educate pork, so why bother trying, it is also cathartic.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 08:26 AM

The point is Mr McGrath, that personal abuse is becoming acceptable on this forum, multiple personas are being used by trolls to "wind people up"......The people who use these tactics, like Ian and his friends are known to admin yet they are allowed to curse and abuse those with whom they disagree on various issues.

It would be easy for any of us to adopt these tactics, it would save the time and energy spent on researching and presenting verified facts on the issues under discussion......but the purpose of the forum would be defeated.
Ian may get some sort of pleasure from responding in the way that he does, but people who wish to put a serious point are often driven away.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 09:32 AM

But you do adopt those tactics. You called me an idiot a couple of days ago.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 10:28 AM

(a) contribute:

I see no discussion here. Just personal putdowns.
So what is patriotism? is it good or bad and why?

I don't see anything personal about it.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 10:34 AM

He insults and abuses whole sections of society.

I reserve my vitriol for criminal scum like him. He lowers Mudcat to the gutter by his presence. If Mudcat was hosted in The UK or if the moderators here thought that bigotry and homophobia wasn't free speech, his account would have been closed a long time ago. As it is, his incitement to hatred, spreading lies about sections of society and suggesting rounding them up is a crime where he lives. He is a British subject and subject to equality laws designed to prevent people being abused by coming across hatred agaisnt them for no reason whatsoever. I am proud to have alerted Mudcat to my ISP.

Back in your hole, pathetic worm. You were trying to tell us women drinking are asking to be raped in an adjacent thread, so it isn't just homophobia is it? Misogyny too. Do you have anyone at all who loves you? You seem to be missing something, all that twisted hatred.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 11:42 AM

""Anger was washed away in the river along with any obligation.""
― Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 11:54 AM

Don Firth should get a C+ for his book report.

..but don't you think that FIRST you should at least reply to MY comments, that were an answer to your question....that you are trying to dodge???

So let me refresh your question, to me...and you can rebut...fair enough??

Don Firth: "...but it takes a little more effort to explain you opinion of what it is they lied about, why you think it's a lie, and what you believe the real facts are."

So here is a PARTIAL list:

Shovel ready jobs

Benghazi, YouTube video was the cause...blah blah..even in front of the U.N..and two weeks after everyone KNEW better!....and NO mention that the Benghazi office was selling arms to Syria...under the table.

"If you like your health plan...and doctor you can keep them, (shortened version).

Not a tax (Obamacare), so they falsely promoted....until the Supreme Court ruled that it was..

People would save $2500 a year under that 'plan'....their premiums AND deductibles went significantly higher!!

Jeff Immelt, fgormer head of G.E. (MSNBC), job czar, with $500 million to start jobs for the American worker, but somehow he did....in CHINA!..No wonder Bill D watches MSNBC, for his insights!...Ya' think that MSNBC is unbiased??????...

Immigration reform, in his FIRST YEAR....when he could have EASILY done it, with both Houses of Congress, in a 'Democratic' majority..

Fast and Furious...Let's run guns to the cartels....same song and dance as Iran/Contra...

IRS, just like Nixon did..and Obama even joked about it!

Hope and Change????...Hope for WHAT??..and CHANGE to WHAT???..Try 'Bait and Switch'!!

Not that these are particularly SMALL things....and there are a lot more! But that should get you started....but you won't...You'll just come back with some meaningless drivel, slurring and slamming, those who point that out to you..with NO HONEST, or intelligent rebuttal!

Now if you can't reply, WITHOUT your USUAL semi-literate diatribes, name calling attacks, then don't...it is only MORE evidence that you have NOTHING!!...(ever heard THAT before?????)"

...........

I re-iterate, which is absolutely true, and you did it, as per aforementioned:

"You'll just come back with some meaningless drivel, slurring and slamming, those who point that out to you..with NO HONEST, or intelligent rebuttal!"

Give 'er a whirl!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 12:44 PM

Steve, I called you an idiot, not to abuse you. but to explain why you were unable to comprehend what I had stated clearly in a previous post.

Now "Team Musket", of which you may be a member are tacticians of sorts, but they are almost certainly "idiots" in their adherence to a mythological faith position applied to modern civil society, under the control of a corporate capitalist economic system.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 12:57 PM

"" I called you an idiot, not to abuse you. but to explain why you were unable to comprehend what I had stated clearly in a previous post.""

I guess anyone could justify just about any type of "name calling" under that odd, goosey-gander kind of reasoning.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 01:05 PM

The important points made are being obscured by the shit that people throw at each other.

What the hell is the use...?

Don (totally disgusted) Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 01:09 PM

AND--the dung-flinging gets threads with posts containing important information closed. Not good!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 01:16 PM

The law is a mythological faith?

I haven't heard that one outside forensic psychiatry... One way of achieving an equitable equality in society is to stop seeing others as second class. Although of course, I doubt any person, gay or straight could or would look up to akenaton.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 06:49 PM

I called you an idiot, not to abuse you. but to explain why you were unable to comprehend what I had stated clearly in a previous post.

And I called you a homophobe and a misogynist, not to abuse you, but because it's demonstrably true.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 07:31 PM

I see no discussion here. Just personal putdowns.

Then you must be blind. I posted discussion points on the 17th at 8.02pm, on the 18th at 6.55pm, and on the 19th at 6.08am. Many other people have posted discussion points to this thread. Your attitude is offensive and silly (though I never take offence myself). Your only post of substance in this thread was almost incomprehensible. Apart from that you simply whinge. How may we help you?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 08:46 PM

My post above, at 22 Nov 14 - 02:15 AM, (including the link) contains too much important information to be buried in the flurry of manure-slinging going on in this thread. Anybody interested in the future of this country, not to mention the world at large, needs to heed what is said there.

GfS, ever the smart-ass, gives me a C+ for my "book report" on a couple of pieces of fiction, ignoring the fact that I also talked about a couple of nonfiction books by the same author. Novels can promulgate ideas and many do. And these novels are definitely not "light reading." They are written with the idea of getting the author's ideas out there into the real world.

And the fact that she has succeeded in her efforts is demonstrated by the fact that her novels—and her non-fiction—spawned a popular lecture series, several more non-fiction books written by others, and two political parties—one of which has grown into the third largest political party in the United States—the Libertarian Party, and the somewhat looser-knit but more gung-ho "Tea Party."

Under the system advocated in these "novels", subsequent works of non-fiction, and the platforms of the political parties these writings have spawned, government would not have the power to regulate business interests, nor to tax them. And there would be NO Social Security, Medicare, or social "safety net" such as welfare programs, unemployment insurance, none of that.

This is nothing less than Fascism, in which the corporations and the wealthy ARE the government!!

Ignore at your peril! Ignore at everybody's peril!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 12:21 AM

Are you going to respond to the questions I answered you, and offer 'your take'???

..and BTW, your 'biggest problem' is, you THINK Obama is a socialist!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 12:49 AM

Get serious, Goofup, if that's even possible for you. Read what I just wrote, and my other post at 22 Nov 14 - 02:15 AM (complete with the link), and either make a serious response, or don't waste everybody's time and internet bandwidth with snotty remarks and frivolous nit-picking.

I'm not going to waste time and effort responding to your litany of the administration's alleged lies, gleaned from your favorite Right Wing websites. In short, I'm fed up with you!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 04:27 AM

Thats the problem with reading posts across continents. The term "socialist" is seen as a term of abuse in Dumbfuckistan, whilst here it describes everything from left wing to liberal democracy.

And most people would be proud of their socialism...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw completist
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 06:01 AM

You left out akenaton. He's a socialist too.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 06:08 AM

Ok, and national socialists...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 04:00 PM

Researchers find references to Jesus 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 06:16 PM

In the same documents as love spells, I notice.

I refer the honourable gentleman to previous posts.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 06:53 PM

Well, we don't really know where it will lead, now do we -unless we are "crystal ball gazers", that is. You did say something akin to "no" evidence. ;)

Those who go romping and harping about, begging for evidence, without first qualifying it, have earned few credits to be that "fussy" - after the fact. Tisk, tisk¿

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 07:42 PM

SRS gave you lot a warning a week ago and was disregarded.
For many years in the 1960s through 80s, some weirdo used to haunt London's Oxford Street with a sandwich-board protesting about flatulence: less sitting, fewer beans was the gist of it. His spiritual heir similarly haunts the Royal Courts of Justice these days with a poster concerned with a written constitution.
They have much in common with these debates. It's not even worth stopping past as a matter of idle curiosity to see how lunatic the debate has become, because you're neither objectively engaging, humourously entertaining nor yet invectively innovative. You just chase your tails in a pointless circle, as you know certain rednecks will pursue one line and nothing can or will change that.
It leaves me disillusioned, because if we're that poor in communicating here, how much worse must we be in performance? Which is pretty much what SRS was saying - I have a wall which will be more usefully decorated by my bashing my head against it than continuing these debates.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 08:01 PM

""I have a wall which will be more usefully decorated by my bashing my head against it than continuing these debates.""

Surely you must find something more useful and less personally distructive to do. If noy, have you ruled out subconscious death wish?

I suspect few folks take internet interactions quite that seriously (even srs) . It seems important that you either strive to "get a grip", on reality-life beyond some predictable Mudcat BS-bs debates, (aka internet interaction), or disconnect. I submit that all participants dont take it all that seriously, beyond the somewhat- anon posting vaneer.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 08:09 PM

"The personal insults and mud slinging are what drive people away. Didn't your mothers ever tell you that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all?"

Do you really want everybody to be nice to the Neo Nazis and Self obsessed Repugnicans who are trying to destroy the USA?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 08:14 PM

"The point is Mr McGrath, that personal abuse is becoming acceptable on this forum,"

As would the unacceptable views of bigots, racists and homophobes on this forum Mr Pharaoh, were they NOT challenged by those with a greater degree of humanity!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 08:14 PM

My impression of Mudcat bs is reflected in this cartoon.


wolf and sheepdog 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 04:15 AM

First Froth: "I'm not going to waste time and effort responding to your litany of the administration's alleged lies, gleaned from your favorite Right Wing websites. In short, I'm fed up with you!"

First of all, I didn't get them from 'Right Wing websites'...it's all over the spectrum of 'news' sources...AND..what a cowardly and hypocritical way to avoid answering, just because you have NO answer, that couldn't be blown out of the water INSTANTLY!

You're 'fed up'!!..What a joke!
You're busted!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 12:47 PM

Ah, I see "Team Musket" are reforming.......a bit sad really.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 01:40 PM

Goofus, I note that you don't have any kind of intelligent response to my comments about Ayn Rand and the substantial political influence her writings are having on current politics. Never heard of her, right?

You get downright boring as you yap the same old thing over and over again. You'd be better off letting the adults discuss things and turn your attention back to writing and playing elevator music.

So, like with my neighbor's yappy little Yorkshire terrier when he gets really and incoherently obnoxious, I hereby scoop you up and throw you back over the hedge into the rhododendron bush.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 02:08 PM

"We will not tolerate comments from the "lurkers" peanut gallery," chimed a voice of reason.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 02:18 PM

"The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding." Louis D. Brandeis 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 03:46 PM

Dear moderators.

It doesn't count if he is not a person with rights. The fact that Akenaton is allowed to spread homophobic bigotry without being deleted is a stain on the reputation of Mudcat and Max should hang his head in shame for running a hate website.

If he can say gay people should be rounded up and forced to undergo invasive medical procedures, and can say with impunity that my husband and I are promiscuous because we are gay, then there is no moderation.

So no reason to delete my questioning his sexual habits. See how he likes it, the disgusting pervert.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 06:16 PM

This was, and to a lesser extent still is, a very good little forum.
I have always been of the opinion that ALL subjects are up for debate and as most of us are adults we should be able to debate those subjects reasonably.
This section of the forum's purpose is to provide a platform for all views to be heard, but if personal abuse and the use of obscenities, such as we see from "Team Musket", are allowed to continue no one will wish to discuss anything.


Of course this is the tactic, intimidation, just like the bowler who serves up "bouncers".
Fortunately, the mods are beginning to tire of the endless dumbing down and the offensive posts are becoming fewer, but perhaps the damage has been done.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 07:01 PM

   Patriotism, though it is based upon the natural and indeed instinctive love of home, has been elevated in the modern world into an unparalleled congeries of imbecilities. What it demands of the individual citizen, as a practical matter, is that he yield not only his judgement but also his property and even his life to whatever gang of scheming politicians happen to be in power. The essence of his virtue as a patriot is that he ask no questions, once the band is set to playing.

Patriotism: A variety of hallucination which, if it seized a bacteriologist in his laboratory, would cause him to report the streptococus purogenes to be as large as a Newfoundland dog, as intelligent as Socrates, as beautiful as Mont Blanc, and as respectable as a Yale professor.

--- H. L. Mencken

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 03:10 AM

All subjects eh? So let's discuss Seaham Cemetery's allegation that you are cruel to greyhounds. After all, the BBC documentary about the seedy side of greyhound racing seems to condemn most trainers.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 04:20 AM

Doctor Seaham does not know me, or anything about how I treat my dogs.
I live many hundreds of miles from the town of Seaham where the offences occurred a decade ago.

The material which I furnished to my learned friend the QC, contains my request to Doctor Seaham to provide any tiny piece of evidence which could in any way link me to these offences....despite numerous requests, he has never offered up any evidence at all.
According to my friend it is a clear case of libel.

I also passed on your comment that it "seemed very unlikely" that his allegations were true, but it seems you have altered your opinion?
My friend will be made aware of this, unless of course you wish to clarify.

I take these lies with the utmost seriousness as I have numerous contacts in the racing world and propagation of such untruths could have a detrimental effect on my position.

The new internet trolling regulations make provision for this situation.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 04:28 AM

To anyone who may be wondering about this "thread drift", it is simply another example of "Team Musket" intimidation tactics, in the same vein as cursing and insulting, but much more dangerous to the proponents.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 05:35 AM

Musket has tried to make trouble for Mudcat by making a scurrilous complaint to the authorities about the site.
That should have made him unwelcome on the site he so hates, but the tolerance of Max and helpers is greater than Musket deserves.

I believe that Musket himself wrote the disgraceful lying Seaham posts smearing Akenaton.
I also believe that his frequent resort to obscene abuse in place of debate inhibits decent folk from participating.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 10:00 AM

Nobody cares what you "believe". You also believe that the earth is 6000 years old.

Q.E.D.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 10:24 AM

You are wrong about me Greg.
I am quite sure that the Earth is over 4 billion years old.

I am as entitled to express my views as you are Greg.
Anything else?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 10:27 AM

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." 
― George Carlin

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 02:02 PM

But you don't have a view that I wrote posts by others. Mainly because I didn't and as you read this on the internet, where you get all your judgements anyway, you can now stop lying.

My posts are being deleted on this thread whilst posts from bigots, lying about me remain. Comments about the other Muskets are too. To clarify, only Musket Ian tends to write in the music section, the other two of us, we post as guests in our names there. We all post as one below the line because we cannot believe some of the crap on the BS section as being fitting for an excellent music website, so we take the piss.

Pathetic that gay people can have distressing lying hatred written about their sexuality but when they reply, they get deleted. The homophobic bigots can print lies and distortions but then complain about those who stand up to them.

Mudcat? I doubt Max meant it this way. It isn't Max's fault that a criminal posts hatred and a UKIP member defends him, says he is a member, then says he isn't, then supports homophobia on these threads whilst saying he isn't.

Then we are subjected to a concerted effort by them both to let them post their hatred and contempt? If you hadn't noticed, if Musket didn't challenge you, there are plenty others on here who see you both for what you are. And what you are is laid out clearly and precisely in your own posts.

I repeat. None of the three people posting as Musket are the person posting as Seaham Cemetery. That said, I believe Musket Ian knows him, and knows his father very well. I certainly don't. I live in Scotland for starters and have never met him. The other two Muskets were at our wedding a few weeks ago here in Inveraray.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 02:21 PM

(This is where the good idea to share a persona over a pint starts getting a bit daft..)

Fully agree with "me."

Akenaton says the most outrageous things that nobody should be allowed to read on public websites without warnings as you enter. To help,prevent this, Mudcat had moderation. The moderation does not work, hence THIS Musket alerted his ISP to the published hatred, as law abiding citizens who care for the feelings of others can do. As two of the Muskets are often on a public sector VPN, the ISP is NHSNet, as well as BT.

Anyway, leave this to the others. I'm waiting for a 7.15 taxi now. Table booked for 8.

Just to say that wherever I see bigotry, odious views and disgraceful comments, they will never, ever go unchallenged. If that upsets those who think they can get away with behaviour that is downright disgusting, Good.

I refer people to the excellent post by Troubadour above. (Do you think one of us wrote that too Keith?)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 03:08 PM

This is getting intolerably confusing. Is it really permissible for a consortium of three people to post under the same name -- the two of them who are nor members & post under different names, it appears, as 'Guests' in the top section but presumably having access to the BS threads on the coat-tails of the member one in BS --- have lost track now of what point I was going to make.

But are such practices permissible here, Mods? If not, please put a stop to them; if so, then I respectfully submit that it is unacceptably confusing and intrusive.

Confused. Exercised. Mixed up ----

The one and only, unique, inimitable, beware of all fakes and imitations ·········

≈MGM·Lion≈

≈≈Grr·ROARrr·Rrr!≈≈

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 04:16 PM

"If 4 out of 5 people SUFFER from diarrhea…does that mean that 1 enjoys it?" 
― George Carlin

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 04:19 PM

perhaps it might be an idea for ake and musket to set up separate website. somewhere they could tell the dastardly truth about each other. leave no dark muttering unexplained. ,,,,

dogs, ukip, homophobia, multiple personalities...

For as the late Dame Edith Evans said when asked her character's motivation, i'm afraid you are confusing me with someone who gives a shit....

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 04:23 PM

"It's important in life if you don't give a shit. It can help you a lot." 
― George Carlin

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 04:31 PM

...not really recommended as a Christmas gift....

Gwynplaine (The Man who Laughs)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 04:35 PM

""Multiple profile disorder (MPD) is a social networking disorder characterized by having at least one "alter" personality that controls behavior. The "alters" are said to occur spontaneously and involuntarily, and function more or less independently of each other.

They may be evident by posts that are not characteristic of the known person and seem widely out of normal character. Some of the posts may be offensive and unfiltered.

The unity of consciousness, by which we identify our selves, is said to be absent in MPD. Another symptom of MPD is spontaneous posts in conjuction with amnesia, which can't be explained by ordinary forgetfulness.""

Source: the Urban dictionary

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 09:29 PM

""History isn't a story that comes to any kind of conclusion. Human conflict changes its shape along with new technologies and shifts in power, but it doesn't go away. At bottom, this is what so many people find unthinkable - the fact that intractable conflict will continue to shape our lives in future as it has done in the past.""



Does anybody ever 'think the unthinkable'?  

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 03:16 AM

Good idea Al. Ignore the bigotry then scratch your head when racism, homophobia, misogyny and blaming others becomes mainstream.

Who knows, someone might form a political party on the basis if he feels enough people are desensitised and stick their head in the ground.

Ooh, look. Someone already has.

🎁🎋🎉🎊

Let's all fucking celebrate.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 05:19 AM

For the record, I have never claimed any party membership except I was a Green member for a while a long time ago.
Certainly not UKIP.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 11:15 AM

Get the moderators to delete the post where you referred to them as "we" then.

Additionally, get my post immediately after it where I challenged the "we" and your subsequent defence of them.

If I condemn you at all in any way for any subject reason, I condemn the words put by Keith A of Hertford. If you think otherwise, you have delusions of grandeur.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 03:55 PM

You have tried this smear before so you are deliberately lying about it.
To answer a question in a thread, I quoted from their site.
The spokesperson spoke of we.
On at least two previous occasions I showed you that the passage was still on their site.

It is not much of a smear as smears go, but it is a lie.
I do not even support them and I have never posted anything that supports them.
If that is not true, put up an example.

You are a devious and dishonest person to make lying attacks on a member just because we disagree on some issues.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 11:10 PM

i still think a separate website where you resolve your various issues would be the best thing. most of us don't anything about all these arguments and it is a distraction and disruption of our group conversation about patriotism.

granted you have to speak up and save the world from animal cruelty, misogny, homophobia and dying of yellow jack.

but be a good lad and fuck off and do it somewhere else.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 02:31 AM

In the meantime, have a site for whinging about how life can be a shit sandwich. Oh, look. Someone has done it for you. It's called Mudcat BS.

You have to look carefully though, weave your way through the unchallenged bigotry. Still, if bigotry doesn't jar you but someone happy with his lot does, I'm not sure you can be helped.

Keith. 98% (2% to include "you lose" etc) of your posts are cut and paste but you seem quite happy to portray them as your opinion.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 03:42 AM

Keith backs up his views by posting the opinions of experts, he is providing a service to those who are too lazy or incompetent to educate themselves.

You three, or is it four? simply make assertions, personal opinions and outright lies....which of course cannot be supported by any creditable source.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 03:54 AM

Frotho: "Goofus, I note that you don't have any kind of intelligent response to my comments about Ayn Rand and the substantial political influence her writings are having on current politics. Never heard of her, right?"

I DID answer your dumb post...you just bullshitted AGAIN, to keep from answering mine!

Take some Viagra...and get plenty of sleep!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 04:26 AM

...and as long as you're citing FICTIONAL NOVELS as your references, I suggest you read some, Carlo Collodi....in your case, it works better than Viagra!

GfS

P.S. Carlo Collodi, was the author of 'Pinocchio'....oh, literate one!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 04:47 AM

Lies?

A bit rich if you don't mind me saying so.

Oh, you do mind?

Good

Luckily I live in Scotland, and in an area of Scotland that welcomes all and goes out of its way to welcome me, a gay Englishman.

Now, what were those fantasies you came out with about "people around here?" At bell ringing recently, I mentioned you. The ringing master had me in stitches. Seems everybody laughs at you, not with you. I might even drive a detour to look at that wall...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 05:09 AM

Re. lies, remember your claim of advanced knowledge of HIV trends.
The full report is now out and it was not true.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 10:24 AM

You claimed hetero numbers increasing.
They fell.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 10:24 AM

You claimed hetero numbers increasing.
They fell.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 12:05 PM

Any chance of not deleting my posts?

Keith is rattling on as if I said the opposite of what he is saying. I said what he has been reading, although what he has read isn't quite what he is saying.

As usual.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 12:26 PM

"That said, I think the USA has the best idea for how to run a country."

That, I find kind of odd Mrrzy.

I would suggest that there are few forms of government less democratic than a corporatocracy in which the 40% (minority) TAIL wags the 60% (majority) DOG, while one man carries the authority to VETO any decision which they may, by some mischance, actually arrive at.

I would actually claim that the UK Constitutional Monarchy is significantly more democratic,with its apolitical head of state who does not possess any practical power or authority, and a parliament which operates on the basis that the majority rules, a majority being 51%, or failing that a plurality of those voting (i.e. the largest vote carries the day).

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 12:31 PM

"Now, what were those fantasies you came out with about "people around here?" At bell ringing recently, I mentioned you. The ringing master had me in stitches. Seems everybody laughs at you, not with you. I might even drive a detour to look at that wall... "

What on earth are you on about Musket 1 2 or 3?

You are homosexuals? why didn't you mention that before...could have explained a lot.

Moderators, how can anyone hold a discussion with multiple personas?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 12:38 PM

Just in case anyone is sad enough to recall when Keith was interpreting HIV data in a way to substantiate Akenaton's desire to force gay people but nobody else to be registered and undergo invasive medical testing...

I gave an overview of preliminary figures that were not yet in the public domain, although at the time I thought they were. However, they now are and say what I said they say.

Bear in mind the only reason this is being discussed is the wish of Keith and Akenaton to vilify gay men, which is rather sick, but let's carry on. The advent of CCG and consequent public health being local government rathe than PCT reporting means historical figures have to be extrapolated for England rather than compared as boundaries have altered since April 2013. This was something Keith called a smokescreen, but the rest of us call the unnecessary reorganisation of The NHS. in other words, it happened...

There is a decline in MSM diagnosed late. This is good news, and the ongoing early MSM diagnosis is a sign that the stigma Keith and other bigots push is not working, as more people are heeding health advice and coming forward.

Women diagnosed is up 5%, in line with all diagnoses, which is concerning of course, but in line with what I said. More women receive anal sex than men, according to FCE figures.

There is very recent (since the 2013 interim report) evidence to suggest most of the undiagnosed MSM is very recent. This is a concern, but has no bearing on earlier discussion as it is a new dimension.

There is an overall small drop in heterosexual infection, largely due to fewer sub Sahara diagnoses, making Euro heterosexual infections slightly higher overall, and in line with the increase in women.

The other heterosexual infection comment from the report, which should be borne in mind is The number of reports among people who probably acquired HIV in The UK remains high at around 1500 per year."

Not quite Keith's claim of them falling then, as he includes sub Sahara in order to make MSM seem worse than it is. And sadly, while the "vast majority" of gay men do not carry HIV, stigma and hard to reach and engage means they are still, by demographic, the highest number.

But not worth hating them for eh?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 12:56 PM

Out of interest worm (and this is Ian typing) why should the sexual orientation of one of the components of Musket make any difference and why would it explain anything?

Despite your insignificance in all areas, we had a little laugh about you on the stag night a few weeks ago. Stood with a drink looking at the moonlight over Loch Fyne, the groom to be noted that when the wind is in the wrong direction, a certain unpleasant odour carries over the loch from the Strathlachlan direction. After a brief chuckle about how some people are too concerned with not liking others to enjoy the world as it is, we reverted to celebrating equality and how it led to this day, and how SNP for all their faults are showing the way forward in equality for all. Scotland is a good place then for gay Englishmen to live. Other than the religious nutters, far more tolerant of others.

Of course, you could never be accused of being a typical Scot eh?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 01:14 PM

I don't give a stuff what you or your partners think of me, but what particular "wall" did you have in mind.
I have built walls all over Argyll, most of which are still standing as firm as they day they were built.
I take a pride in my work, but I wouldn't expect you or anyone associated with you to be able to appreciate it.

Stick to pen pushing, cursing and insulting.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 01:45 PM

Once again Goofball reveals the awesome extent of his ignorance and arrogance (note, the two often go together). Throughout history, certain works of fiction and the themes therein have often had a powerful influence on subsequent historical events.

Ayn Rand is one such author. Her philosophy of selfishness and greed has found a home in the ideas and actions of many in politics today who are eagerly attempting to influence events and create the kind of society that Ayn Rand wrote about--in her fictional novels.

AND in her subsequent works of non-fiction, such as The Virtue of Selfishness and Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal.

Goofus serves the purpose of demonstrating that by shooting off one's mouth, one can wind up with a foot riddled with bullet holes.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 01:59 PM

Hi Ian, Just had a look at the Public Health England annual report 2014.
They estimate that in England 1 in 17 MSM carry the HIV virus, this rises to 1 in 8 in London.
This is a substantial rise since the 2013 report.
They also advise 3 monthly testing for active male homosexuals.

Still think there is "no epidemic" amongst MSM?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 02:07 PM

"You are homosexuals? why didn't you mention that before...could have explained a lot"
And helped your life quest no end
Jim Carroll
Bummer

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 03:34 PM

Musket, you stated," Keith says heterosexual transmission is falling but it isn't."

It was.
It had been for years.
It still is.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 04:22 PM

whats a MSM?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 07:55 PM

Don, I don't give a fuck in a flying rat's ass about Ayn Rand, nor any stupid politician, holding office or not, about what they may embrace about some shit they read in a fictional novel!...Being as you LOVE fiction..how about another one of your dumb posts!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 08:30 PM

Goofus, you're going to love it in the concentration camp....

If not, just remember, it was you who stuck your head up your own butt.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw MSW
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 08:35 PM

whats a MSM?

Well, Al, it's an ugly and dismissive abbreviation used exclusively by homophobes which characterises "men who have sex with men". The people who use this crude term deny the dignity of the men whose private lives they would so like the rest of us, along with them, to condemn.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 08:37 PM

Reminds me of this one:) 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 08:38 PM

Akenaton, I hope you're sitting down......(I may ease your mind).....I want you to think back, on the posts you and 'Musket' have exchanged, through the years, and how he avoids the topic, or yaks disconnected drivel, using multiple identities, with little traces of sarcastic, but childish 'humor'..I think he's even impressed himself....OK, you got that?........

Now think back, all the way back to the 'homosexual' threads...OK?

Do you remember me posting (I could dig it up) but I mentioned repeatedly, that sometimes a couple would come in for counseling, and there was a 'behavior' that, though was NOT sexual in discussions, was a 'tip-off' for a counselor to consider that one of the parties, had homosexual tendencies, and pursue a line of 'discussion' in finding the 'hidden problem'?....do you remember that?.....Do you remember what the 'tip-off' was???

...are you seated?...because you're going to remember this.......


Emotional immaturity.

Regards,


GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 08:41 PM

Don Froth: "Goofus, you're going to love it in the concentration camp...."


Don just loves liberal agendas.....
Folks, get a clue!!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 12:45 AM

To maintain that works of fiction are inconsequential is to display one's ignorance of history and its influence of literature—not to mention, the influence of song.

Uncle Tom's Cabin by Harriet Beecher Stowe, was a novel that whipped up sentiment that led to the Civil War. And several works by Charles Dickens, such as Oliver Twist, depicting the plight of orphaned or homeless children, and Bleak House, detailing the social and legal paralysis that can be caused by brainless and obstructive bureaucracy, and several others by Dickens, led to social change. From an article on Dickens and the social impact of his "fiction:"

At a time when Britain was the major economic and political power of the world, Dickens highlighted the life of the forgotten poor and disadvantaged within society. Through his journalism he campaigned on specific issues—such as sanitation and the workhouse—but his fiction probably demonstrated its greatest power in changing public opinion in regard to class inequalities. He often depicted the exploitation and oppression of the poor and condemned the public officials and institutions that not only allowed such abuses to exist, but who flourished as a result.

His most strident indictment of this condition is in Hard Times (1854), Dickens's only novel-length treatment of the industrial working class. In this work, he uses both vitriol and satire to illustrate how this marginalized social stratum was termed "Hands" by the factory owners; that is, not really "people" but rather only appendages of the machines they operated. His writings inspired others, in particular journalists and political figures, to address such problems of class oppression. For example, the prison scenes in The Pickwick Papers are claimed to have been influential in having the Fleet Prison shut down. Karl Marx asserted that Dickens "…issued to the world more political and social truths than have been uttered by all the professional politicians, publicists and moralists put together."

As to Harriet Beecher Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin, another article excerpt for you enlightenment and edification:

Uncle Tom's Cabin was published in book form on March 20, 1852, by John P. Jewett with an initial print run of 5,000 copies. In less than a year, the book sold an unprecedented three hundred thousand copies.   By December, Jewett issued an inexpensive edition at 37 1/2 cents each to further inspire sales.

The book's emotional portrayal of the impact of slavery captured the nation's attention. It added to the debate about abolition and slavery, and aroused opposition in the South.

After the start of the Civil War, Stowe met President Abraham Lincoln on November 25, 1862. Her son later reported that Lincoln greeted her by saying, "So you are the little woman who wrote the book that started this great war."

Two authors of "fiction," and in Dickens' case, several novels dealing with social and political issues that have had a powerful influence on society.

But the influential ideas in fictional works are not always positive.

As to the influence of Ayn Rand and her fiction, underlined by her works of non-fiction—so far:

1. has resulted in one President (Ronald Reagan) systematically disassembling or emasculating regulatory agencies and social programs initiated by Franklin D. Roosevelt in the 1930s, programs and agencies that reigned in Wall Street and the bankers, put people back to work during the Great Depression, and provided security during old age (Social Security);
2. got a member of her "inner circle," Alan Greenspan, appointed head of the Federal Reserve Bank;
3. inspired a coterie of her fans to form the Libertarian Party (note: Libertarian, NOT Liberal), which reflects Ayn Rand's values, and which, with a very few years, has grown into the third largest political party in the United States;   
4. further inspired another group to form the looser-knit "Tea Party, with essentially the same beliefs and goals;
5. Led Paul Ryan and several other politicians to insist that all members of their staffs read Ayn Rand's works; and
6. Although he denies it, the word is that Rand Paul was named after Ayn Rand (his parents were great admirers of Ayn Rand's writing).

Ideas are not confined to heavy, philosophical tomes. More often than many people suspect, ideas are smuggled—uncritically—into their consciousness because most people read fiction for enjoyment and recreation, and their critical faculties are often not in gear.

Poor ol' Goofup. It doesn't seem to occur to him that one can read BOTH fiction and non-fiction.

But first, Goofball, you have to learn to read....

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 02:47 AM

To be slightly fair Steve, MSM is the accepted technical term these days, as used in medical and social care circles. It does jar slightly but medically, it is a differentiator. It means three things together, male, gay and enjoying a sex life. Remove any one and with regard to STIs, the risk lowers.

A degree of what I reckon is historical political correctness means there is no similar common abbreviation for heterosexual sex with or amongst sub Sahara origin people, the second most vulnerable group.

In fact, as the report demonstrates, and I mentioned above, the sub Sahara demographic is large enough to skew figures. A worrying trend of not presenting early enough within this group leads to a false flag headline indicator of heterosexual infection rates, although the commentary I quoted from the report deals with that to prevent people claiming falling heterosexual rates vis a vis MSM rates.

The stance Keith and Akenaton are taking could lead you into thinking wrongly that if one sector is lowering, the other sector is rising. This is consistent with the many hate and pseudo religious website commentaries that twist these figures to demonise gay people. The increase in early MSM detection and lower late detection is one hell of a success story, and the report acknowledges this. It means an increasingly responsible attitude to screening amongst promiscuous people in gay relationships.

Our two homophobes have history.

Incidentally, at the top of the 2014 report is a list of contributors. One of those is Seaham Cemetary, who had his audit published a few months ago when doing his sexual health attachment as a medical registrar.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 04:25 AM

Anyone notice the post from Goofus about gay people a few posts up?

Fucking fascinating.

A bad experience somewhere down the line Goofus? Something you want to share perhaps? You and your mate seem to share an arse fixation but appear to be in denial. Perhaps you could benefit from group therapy eh?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 04:39 AM

It is excellent that new infections are being recorded earlier.
It is a lie to suggest that infection rates in the MSM demographic are not rising, or that infection rates amongst heteros are not falling.

The really important fact is the massive difference between the two, MSM accounting for 78% of all new infections in the US in the latest CDC report and 70% of all new infections in the UK......MSM make up less than 1% of the population.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 05:00 AM

No, Musket, that's the way it is.....

Don, The Bible is a book that, as far as world influence, whether you subscribe to believing in it or not, has had a far greater influence, amongst the people on the planet....and you don't seem to want to talk about that...you prefer turmoil, and divisiveness, rather than we are all one.....and for those who see us all as one, with the top law of Love, (not the same as lust, in all it's disguises), obsessions with books by Ayn Rand, Hitler, Lenin, Mao (and a plethora of others)are just destructive popcorn farts....but for twisted idiot-logues, who lap up all that shit...they must smell like roses.

How come you CAN'T promote Love?

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 05:47 AM

you see what i mean about a separate website where all these these things are made plain.

when you kept going on about Seaham Cemetary, i thought it was a place. maybe somewhere where Ake exercised his dogs.

1% of the population of where, Ake. you've got that one wrong. have you never gigged a gay pub. there are bloody millions.

lets face it mate - if you choose to live miles from anywhere, you lose touch with reality. this village, i've retired to   - its like Planet Daily Mail.

its only Mrs Thatcher who thought she could solve the global economy by holding up her shopping basket. like Miss Marple who thought she could grapple with the powers of evil at every church fete.

microcosms of the world are misleading. perhaps because in small communities, minorities are cowed into keeping their heads down. try not to be so sure you have a handle on the world's problems.

musket has seen a lot more of the world than either of us, and he comes from a culture where they call a spade a fucking bastard shovel. i don't like the way he talks about you. but i sort of understand it. in large communities, you see the fruits of intolerance. plus he's getting on in years.

like they said about Curly in City Slickers - try not to piss him off!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 06:08 AM

Younger than you, me old coffin dodger. 👴

I don't like how Akenaton speaks of gay people either. I don't make allowances though. Never seen the point.

Note how he is saying I reckon rates are falling when I said otherwise? This is the shit I mean when I dismiss him. You speak of large communities Al, but we are only one set of humans with the intelligence to try to get on together. His attitude precludes acceptance of others and his bigotry is of the lowest order. When McMusket started really having a go at him I decided to look at a few of his posts on various subjects. My fellow log in seems to be on the button.

Musket or even Muskets aren't the most vocal in condemning him, we are merely the latest....

Luv & hugs

Ian

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw holding out
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 06:16 AM

Well, Musket, regardless of its acceptance in certain circles, it is a crude, and, to me, disrespectful characterisation of a certain section of our community. It has discriminatory overtones because we do not (at least not commonly) use primitive initialisms of that sort for women who have sex with men or women who have sex with women or for either who have sex with both. The only one I've seen used here is MSM. It grates because of its crudeness (if you're going to initialise it, why not MWHSWM?) and the lazy way it's used by two of our resident homophobes. "Gay men" will do nicely for me, without the quotes. Being gay is a way of life. Having sex is what you do occasionally. And gay men is only two syllables when you say it. I'm all for economy.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 06:36 AM

HI Al, sorry for not responding to your question regarding MSM, which allowed Steve to dive in with his nonsense.
MSM is a recognised demographic used by all the health agencies and affected massively by HIV and all other male sexually transmitted diseases.
The less than 1% of the population are not my figures but from a recent huge survey done by the UK Office of National Statistics.
They report 1.5% of the population as "homosexual", this includes females in same sex relationships; as these females are not generally affected by HIV, they can be left out of the equation.

Doctor Seaham has not returned with any proof of his allegations...because there is none. It is a disgusting lie and fortunately my contacts in the racing world know me very well and are aware of my history in the treatment of animals in my care.
I don't often get angry Al, but to be accused of ill treatment of animals in any shape or form, makes me prepared to take action against the accuser.....in this case "Doctor" Seaham, ex "Team Musket"
I suppose the lads were "splitting their sides" when they thought up that little jape, but it was a joke in poor taste and could yet prove to be an expensive mistake.

As you probably know, I am opposed to the redefinition of marriage to accommodate a tiny sexual minority and that is really what upsets the Muskets, they are driven by ideology, not common sense.

I wish no harm to homosexuals, but fail to see how concealing the serious health concerns associated with this type of sexual relationship benefits either homosexuals or society....to maintain that it is just another expression of "love" seems ludicrous, given the associated health problems.
We have had some pleasant battles in the past regarding politics and other matters, but I have always found you fair minded and an excellent debater.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 06:56 AM

"a false flag headline indicator of heterosexual infection rates, although the commentary I quoted from the report deals with that to prevent people claiming falling heterosexual rates vis a vis MSM rates"

???
MSM rates are high and rising and have been for years.
Hetero rates are low and falling, and have been for years.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 07:20 AM

Or do you mean WSM/MSW vis a vis MSM?

Good to know were all OK with WSW, though, innit?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw apostrophe vandal
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 07:21 AM

we're

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 08:40 AM

Just as well you jumped in quick with that we're correction Stevie or team Musket might have pounced.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 08:44 AM

"I wish no harm to homosexuals" followed by saying love is ludicrous given certain health problems is perhaps Akenaton's way of hating without realising how awful he sounds.

Don't worry, Keith has found a headline statistic that Akenaton can use though. Perhaps he can find a book about understanding statistics before spouting off?

Oh, just in case Akenaton wriggles, let's just see what Akenaton really says about the subject;

Subject: RE: BS: About Same-Sex Marriage
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 06:10 PM

I must give my support to "cruiser"in this thread. He has had the courage to say what many of us feel about homosexuality, but are too intimidated by the politically correct "Gay"pressure group.
I too think homosexuality is repugnant,against nature and based on psychological problems.
Cruiser says the answer is to turn away and let the homosexuals get on with their lives,but unfortunatly this is getting harder and harder to achieve, as "gay culture " ouzes from every media orifice,
with all its nasty innuendo,like little boys behind the bike shed
and god help anyone who tries to stop them....Ake
PS At least folk music seems to be pretty clear of this scourge.
Just shows what well adjusted ,sensible hetros we are.


Glad I'm not defending him here. It makes bile rise in my mouth just to read it.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 09:03 AM

Just a post for Steve. Nobody calls gay MSM, other than bigots such as Keith and Akenaton. The term I was using, as do medical and social care professions means men having penetrative sex, which is a different thing altogether and is used exclusively when relating to medial issues to indicate a particular demographic of patient. That is what our homophobes were using to demonise people, a report on HIV. HIV knows no difference, hence the predicted 5% increase in women.

If you don't have technical terms and enforce them, you end up with the press officer for a large teaching trust recently referring to medial outliers (older people unstable at home who seem to be admitted regularly due to inadequate home support) as "frequent flyers club.."

I too abhor its use outside of discussing infections where it is important to see where to plan services, and my posts above were to shut the bigots up as they use the latest HIV report as a club to hit sections of society with. The medical profession of course uses technical terms for all sorts of human emotional states, including birth, death and most things in-between. There are clarity reasons for doing so and as an outsider coming in years ago, I needed my Collins NHS / English English / NHS Phrasebook.



Terribulus. No, I only pull up sanctimonious sods whose pedantry looks stupid when they pull you up on a small irrelevant point but then make the same mistakes themselves. Err.. you for instance. (See Akhenaton's view of you, as I pasted in a number of threads yesterday.)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 09:49 AM

"The next time someone asks you, 'Hey, howdja get to be a homosexual anyway?' tell them, 'Homosexuals are chosen first on talent, then interview… then the swimsuit and evening gown competition pretty much gets rid of the rest of them.'"
-Karen Williams

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 09:50 AM

"If You don't like Gay Marriage, Don't Marry a Gay Person."
– Whoopi Goldberg 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 11:28 AM

Not a "headline statistic" Musket, but a clearly explained finding of the report.

"Gay, bisexual men and other men who have sex with men
Since the first reports of HIV in the early 1980s, MSM have remained the group most at risk of acquiring HIV in the UK. In 2013, after adjusting for missing exposure category, there were 3,250 new HIV diagnoses reported among MSM; this compares to 3,230 reported in 2012 and represents the highest number ever reported in the UK. New HIV diagnoses among MSM accounted for 54% of all diagnoses reported in 2013.
Both the proportion and number of new HIV diagnoses among MSM aged 15-24 years have increased over the past decade, from 8.7% (250/2,420) in 2004 to 16% (460/2,950) in 2013. One in ten MSM were diagnosed at the age of 50 years or above, with an overall median age at diagnosis of 33 years (Appendix 7)."

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 11:35 AM

"People who acquired their infection through heterosexual contact (hereafter referred to as "heterosexuals") accounted for 2,490 (45%) of new HIV diagnoses in the UK in 2013 (after adjusting for missing risk information), a decline of 13% compared to 2,780 cases in 2012.
In 2013, 1,070 heterosexual men were newly diagnosed with HIV, 350 fewer than the number of new diagnoses reported among heterosexual women (1,420). However, the decline in heterosexual cases over the past decade was substantially steeper among women than men (3,100 to 1,420 and 1,780 to 1,070 respectively)."

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 12:11 PM

(Globally) ""Most new infections are transmitted heterosexually, although risk factors vary. In some countries, men who have sex with men, injecting drug users, and sex workers are at significant risk. When compared to the general population, HIV prevalence rates are  estimated to be 19 times higher among men who have sex with men, 28 times higher among injecting drug users, and 12 times higher among sex workers."


World AIDS Day information 


Major impacted countries 

Global perspevtives 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 12:12 PM

the thing is Musket, old fruit - do you really think any sort of dialogue, particularly an abusive one is going to be productive with outlandish views like this.

its a bit like arguing with the natives in new guinea about headhunting;

Ake's safe enough up there in Scotland. theres only about four people where he lives. his problem. forget it.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 12:14 PM

""Ake's safe enough up there in Scotland. theres only about four people where he lives. his problem. forget it.""

Now, wouldn't that put a pleat in your skirt;)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 12:22 PM

Ahhh, the feel of the tartans 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 12:30 PM

Two of which are my husband and I, just round the loch. (McMusket, not pit moggy Musket.)

Anyway, who said anything about dialogue? Isnt it better to hound bigotry down so it knows it has no place in society. He isn't in Scotland, he's everywhere. Its called the internet. Read what he puts again, exchange my husband and I for you and your wife and see how long you quietly ignore him.

The Musket you know feels strongly about this too, and has empathy, but tell you what, it is only when you read of how Germans turned the other way in the '30s when Jews were being villified that you feel the need to shout down bigotry.

Not just his honest hatred either. See how hard Keith A of Hertford scours a huge report to draw conclusions that support Akenaton's reasoning, despite both the report and Pit Moggy Musket's post above mentioning the huge under reporting of sub Sahara heterosexual skewing the figures. Every section about gay men in that report begins with pointing out that the vast majority of gay men are not the subject of the report, but read the cherry picking.

Absolutely awful. Luckily, Akenaton is not typical of the people up here and Inverary has a well established mix of people who live side by side in a single community, and I include most of the hamlets around the loch.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 01:09 PM

Stop wriggling, the new infection rates for all sexually transmitted diseases tell the full and incontrovertible story.

Keith is perfectly correct, hetero rates, even for drug injectors are low and falling, while homo rates are at epidemic proportions and rising steadily

Regarding black SSAfricans and IDU's, the majority who test positive from these demographics are also MSM.

Al there are more than 5 people where I live, and my work takes me over a wide area.....I bet I know more people than you and Ian do, put together :0)
I travel around thirty miles every day and know all the old long established families....the carpetbaggers from down south all need their houses maintained and my phone never stops ringing.
My village is the ancestral home of every Maclachlan who ever lived and my lifelong friend, the clan chief can trace his ancestry back to the tenth century. I worked for his father and his grandfather

No problem for me, I enjoy socialising and there is also the racing fraternity hundreds of them.
Some of the loneliest people in the world live in cities.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 01:23 PM

BTW Ian, leave Teribus out of this argument, he has expressed no view.
The post you dug up was an attempt at humour on my part...must be ten years ago now.....you sad person.

Teribus and I disagree amicably on political matters, though I bow to his superior knowledge of all things military.
I have the greatest of respect for Mr T, he is honest and straightforward, and defends his beliefs without resort to obscenity.

He will not stand for any abuse from pygmies like you tho'...as you have already discovered.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 01:25 PM

As far as a thread that started out to be on patriotism is concerned, this thread has gone completely pear-shaped. The arguments about homosexuality rear their rears heads again (with the usual suspects--one wonders why always them...?) and Donald of the Firth tries to warn what's-his-face from the asylum that the barbarians are at the gates and the goofy one gets religion. When he finds himself staring out through the barbed wire, he's still not going to know what happened.

Weird!!

Gwynplaine (The Man who Laughs)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 01:36 PM

Hi Don

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 01:46 PM

Ed...I hope you are happy and comfortable in them, but at your age????

I love tartan high heels, but ONLY on young lassies wi' bonny red hair!!   :0)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 02:02 PM

It is not a huge report and I did not scour it.

I gave you the main chunk of their findings on those two groups.

You do not like it because it shows that you were wrong when you said hetero numbers were not falling, and lying when you said you had figures not in public domain that proved you right.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 02:06 PM

I commend to anyone to read the report themselves. At least someone told Akenaton how to spell epidemic. Pity for him it isnt relevant to gay people.

One day, hopefully soon, the air around the loch will be cleaner. The people coming into the area since we came have certainly made it a nicer place to live.

By the way, people around here do know you, you are right. You are known as "here he comes" and "there he goes." You have spoken to me by the way. I was discussing moog keyboards in a post office when you came in. I genuinely washed my hands afterwards.

I prefer to call you, in your own words, as repugnant, against nature and based on psychological problems.

Knowing people is easy. Retaining friendships without them laughing behind your back? Priceless.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 02:07 PM

Donald the Froth: "...and Donald of the Firth tries to warn what's-his-face from the asylum that the barbarians are at the gates and the goofy one gets religion. When he finds himself staring out through the barbed wire, he's still not going to know what happened."

GfS did NOT get 'religion'....merely pointing out your issue of books and influence. If you could read and comprehend, at the same time you would have got that....but alas, brain-lock has captivated another victim!

As so far as your socialist concentration camps..(some without barbed wire)...well, that's what politics bring.....time and time AGAIN, and AGAIN....and still the crazies don't learn! The mega-lunatics still promote it!

Stand up and take a bow, and be acknowledged!


GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 02:20 PM

well i suppose where patriotism comes in is that England is traditionally a tolerant country.

America has always been a long way in front of us in recognising the rights of the gay population and recognising their great contribution to society.

i think you are wrong to intrude into other peoples lives Ake by mouthing off about the gay right to marriage. let me assure you that many gay people have loving passionate relationships - sometimes lasting a lifetime. and they are deserving of all the dignity that society can confer.

when i gave up smoking, what really did it was that i became aware that society had changed. and ian, that's how it will be for people like Ake. society will change, and just as we see the racist humour of the 70's is wrong - Ake will change, or die an anachronism.

i was on a cruise last year, and there was a comedian in the bar. the elderly audience were doubled over laughing at the racist jokes. thirty years out of date - the act and the audience.

don't descend to the level of abuse. you won't change some people. but society will change, and everyone with the wit to know it has, will move on.

abuse is ugly, and its a bad talent to develop.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 02:24 PM

That report in case anyone is taken in by Musket.
It says what I said it says.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/377194/2014_PHE_HIV_annual_report_19_11_2014.pdf

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 02:24 PM

What's age got to do with it 《~got to do with it~》-save, if you have bunions, of course■

Alternative "skirt-pump" for an "Alpha-Scot" 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 02:29 PM

Wrong again!!

The concentration camps will not be socialist, they will be fascist.

You don't know the difference, do you?

Cthulhu (and I'm not laughing)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 02:47 PM

Good points Big Al. However, my observation is Canada-with a few other progressive nations, is far ahead of the UK and US of A when it comes to accepting gay rights. (However, the acceptance of aboriginal peoples rights in Canadian society is lagging. One rarely hears the thinky disguised and regressive views towards gays, as put forward by some on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 03:03 PM

Hah!!I hope you washed your hands after speaking to the post master Ian :0)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 05:12 PM

The consensus seems to be washing their hands of you.

Ed. The reason Akenaton jars and sounds so awful is merely that it is so odd these days to hear such filth, other than from dubious religious bigots and ignorant chavs, and in a population of 60 million, they are few enough to be irrelevant. The UK is a tolerant and welcoming melting pot. Its whole history is one of embracing and assimilating different people with different heritage.

That said, I guess nobody who isn't gay can understand any more than a gay person can understand being straight. But 99% of us respect the differences. Same as respecting culture, creed, gender and choice.

Al, of course you can't educate pork and as you said, you just have to wait for bigotry to die. It doesn't mean you have to embrace it by indifference in the meantime. Any doubts, just re read his posts, past and present.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 05:46 PM

""Its whole history is one of embracing and assimilating different people with different heritage.""

While the term "embracing" is indeed positive, historically, the term "assimilation" has been far too often used to justify some fairly horrible and unhumaine actions, including hatred, to individuals and specific groups.

As I look back in history, RCs were so "assimilated", in an unfortunate way, as were many of the North American First Nations and Acadian farmers. I will leave the Scottish and Irish examples for others.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 06:11 PM

Assimilation is embracing if it means contributing and developing a culture. Curry is the national dish apparently, and we in The UK seem to like a good cup of tea.

Religions love enclaves and to be frank, sectarian apartheid is the fault of those who listen to their self styled leaders rather than popping next door to say Hi. History is a place of superstition. This is about now.

Keith A of Hertford insists that people read a report that is summarised already on this thread, says what the summary says and in any case is only of interest in his context to cast doubt on the status of gay people. I take it that is what Ed means when he says thinly disguised. It is the stance, almost verbatim to those appearing on some of the more repugnant Christian sites. A rather obvious link, given what we read here on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 08:09 PM

""Assimilation is embracing if it means contributing and developing a culture""

True, but unfortunately, far too often it has involved marginalizing a culture and peoples-to where only "cute customs", art and good food are embraced by the dominant culture. History is rife with such examples, especially from economic colonization. Unfortunately, some of the results remain with evident to today.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 12:02 AM

Don 'Multiple Personalities' Froth: "The concentration camps will not be socialist, they will be fascist.
You don't know the difference, do you?
Cthulhu"

Don't you remember when you were arguing that there was no difference??

At first I thought you were just a rabid, radical liberal wannabe activist....but it appears that behind the disguise, you are really an ultra right wing-nut, posing as a liberal...and doing everything to make all liberals and progressives look like complete raving idiots...
Good job! Keep it up!

GfS

P.S....that's not saying that the rest of the right wing-nuts aren't moronic loons, either....

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 12:45 AM

Boy, are YOU confused!!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 02:05 AM

Let's put it this way, Goofus: I've always believed in generosity. People with multiple personalities should share them with unfortunate people such as yourself, who don't have any.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 02:08 AM

Just admit it. You two need each other.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 04:06 AM

Ed...We do not have to "embrace" every culture or behavioural minority, we look at the evidence and the effects on our society.

We criminalise several forms of sexual conduct for societal or health reasons.....others are discouraged.

We would be unwise to "embrace" the culture of Islamic Extremism for obvious reasons, like ending up without heads on our shoulders.

Male homosexual practice is shown to be extremely dangerous, due in part to the promiscuous nature of men in general and to physical aspects of male to male sex.

When I started writing on this subject years ago I was completely unaware of the facts associated with the practice, but since then the situation has worsened dramatically and continues to worsen steadily year upon year.
Putting our heads in the sand is no longer an option.
When I first mentioned the MSM sexual health figures I was roundly accused of lying, then I produced proof in the form of CDC fact sheets.....the evidence is overwhelming, we should not be promoting this behaviour as safe and healthy by bringing it into mainstream society and redefining marriage to accommodate it.

At the moment the health agencies are "advising" three monthly HIV testing for MSM, but there is little evidence that anyone is listening

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 04:41 AM

What do you mean by practice? Why are men promiscuous? What has Islamic extremism to do with choice of lover? What has CDC to do with The UK? What is unsafe about gay sex as opposed to any other gender arrangements? Where is the evidence that gay men don't attend screening versus any other vulnerable group?

Moreover, why does Mudcat moderation allow this awful hatred when a website hosted in The UK would be obliged to remove it and the police consider taking action against this person for posting hate based on publishing lies designed to upset and malign decent ordinary members of the public?

Is everybody happy to ignore? Is it only gay men such as myself who should shout?

Really?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 04:56 AM

I detect your fixation with homosexuality, Ake, and frequent attempts to spin many thread discussions towards this, and related topics. By doing that, IMO, you do discussion on Mudcat a disservice- by "harping on" to promote your one-dimensional theories on homosexuals and homosexuality.

Why not give other posters a break and broaden your horizons beyond homosexuality? A side benefit would be to minimize your contribution to the frequent "sniping" that, in my observation, you contribute to, and most likely (IMO) knowingly seem to encourage and seek (maybe for some machochistic reason, maybe not-I am not a psychologist).

My comments related to the negative aspects of (historic) assimilation, and are more broad-based than the narrow topic of homosexuality, of course. So, no, I will not bite on the bait and discuss homosexuality with you as related to assimilation. Pick another topic/aspect, and if I see you are not being deceptive-maybe we could have something to discuss with other members on this thread related to patriotism.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 12:14 PM

What does homosexuality have to do with patriotism?

Akenaton is a one-trick pony.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 01:24 PM

Come to think about it, what does "we criminalise certain forms of sexual conduct" have do with loving gay relationships?

You really do need help. Please stop saying it in public. It is distressing for people to read your wicked hate.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 01:33 PM

No, Chongo, I need the Goofed Up One about as much as I need a case of toenail fungus. I have something of import to say to those with intelligence enough to grasp it, and he tries to distract everyone's attention by jumping up on the table and pissing in the punch bowl.

Shows his level of intelligence.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 02:48 PM

Male homosexual practice is shown to be extremely dangerous, due in part to the promiscuous nature of men in general and to physical aspects of male to male sex.

Phew. This is the most ignorant sentence I've ever read on this forum. Shown by who? Extremely dangerous, eh? So I suppose that explains why the vast majority of gay men manage to live long and healthy lives. Men in general are promiscuous, are they? And where did you get that little gem from? What do you mean, physical aspects? Not, by any chance, the same kinds of penetrative sex enjoyed by millions of people, male with male, male with female, female with female, the world over?

You are unhealthily obsessed with this, to the point of needing some help to get you over it. In addition, you are ignorantly opinionated in a manner clearly driven by your bigotry. In a nutshell, you're quite a nasty piece of work, aren't you?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 03:12 PM

Big Al Whittle says we have to sit patiently till time solves the problem. Nice idea, but any chance in the meantime of stopping him publishing distressing hatred on a website where you don't go on to expect to see it?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 07:47 PM

no what i said is, given our history of intolerance of different races and sexual predilections. there are going to be pockets of intolerance in our population.

abusing the intolerant just makes you look like an abusive person.

you have registered your disapproval of Ake - there isn't much more you can do. eventually he will find himself in a lonely place - but not while the Daily Mail is publishing very similar editorials and front pages.

Ake is an individual. a sympton of the disease. almost a victim.   do your best to get your head round that.

What we need to do is bring our media to heel. call them to account. they hanged the editor of der sturmer. every prime minister cosies up to these fuckers.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 07:59 PM

""Ake is an individual. a sympton of the disease. almost a victim""

Possibly "a result", versus "the source", of such skewed attitudes? As such, are some here focusing on the wrong target to garner meaningful change?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 02:08 AM

Frotho the Magnificent: "No, Chongo, I need the Goofed Up One about as much as I need a case of toenail fungus. I have something of import to say to those with intelligence enough to grasp it, and he tries to distract everyone's attention by jumping up on the table and pissing in the punch bowl."

"Import to say"???? ...Important to YOU!....Nonsense to reality, and usually unproven bullshit!..But that's Okay...because as I told you before, Throw it all out there, the best you can...and when it falls down, at least the bullshit gets exposed!..........(Now if only he was able, in his desperate attempts to mislead people, to stop twisting people's posts, and the truth, to suit his dumb agenda....which is, Look at how 'astute' I've convinced myself that I am!).

Sometimes, it's downright hilarious!
Pathetic is one actually 'believes' it.....but we MUST...We're 'liberals'.......cough cough...

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 02:54 AM

I don't often agree with any limitations of opinion and yes, there are many people with opinions we can have a comfortable laugh about when they spout it off in the pub. We can even join in the fun when a TV reporter asks them a question and broadcasts their froth at the mouth reaction for our entrrtainment.

But there has to be a limit.

Shouting "fire" in a cinema or publishing hatred in publicly accessible places where moderators suppress the challenge but leave the crime intact.

Sorry Al, neither I, the Musket in Scotland (presumably the guest, cookie run out?) nor it would seem, some others on these threads feel acceptance of propagation of hate is acceptable, not when it can be removed with no detriment to the hater other than removing the oxygen of publicity.

Yes, there are plenty of people set in their ways and those ways are set in a time when we were younger and beyond. Yes, not everybody has the intelligence to move forward with the times. The comic on your cruise. I bet you might have laughed more thirty years ago? I might have. I once went to see Jim Davidson in Blackpool and couldn't stop laughing. A few years later on a stag night there, I was taken to see Chubby Brown. Despite my beer intake and even saying I ain't no prude, I wandered out to the bar instead and found quite a few disillusioned fellow theatre goers who found out the expensive way that Brown, Manning and that awful lot just aren't even funny, even if you can laugh at outrageous concepts.

We live with and try to accommodate all views.

But it doesn't mean you leave them a billboard, paper, bucket of paste and crayons outside their house.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 05:01 AM

Steve, I am certainly NOT obsessed by homosexuality, in real life I hardly give it a thought, but I am VERY concerned about how "liberal" ideology in general and the media in particular are changing society for the worse.

The homosexual "marriage" debate is a glaring example of intimidation by the media and the "liberal left" to further their ideological agenda. I have yet to see a reasonable case made to explain the epidemic of STD's amongst male homosexuals, I have yet to see a positive case for homosexual "marriage" other than the myth that "it's just not FAIR".....and the we live in a fair society.
If you are REALLY interested in any sort of equality take a look at the system which oppresses the poorest and most vulnerable in our society.....grow up and join the real world.

I am anti capitalist and about as radical a socialist as you will ever meet, but I understand the value of conservative social policies, which are completely separate from conservative political views.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 07:44 AM

Oh, you're radical all right. But you're no socialist. On second thoughts, maybe you're a socialist with an adjective in front of the word.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 07:56 AM

i can't agree with that . akenaton - surely the personal is political. if we tolerate the power of one group over another - as in the male/female thing in many countries of the world, or the lack of equal human rights for anyone- then these are conservative political laws that affect us all at a personal level. if you look at the usually religious based conservatism making life impossible for homosexuals (or christians in some parts)in africa surely we have to be grateful that things are somewhat better in the west and respectful for all of those who have had to fight for their rights against people like yourself. please don't call yourself a socialist if you are really in favour of legislating against any group of people that you don't approve of.
why are you so bothered about this issue? do you enjoy the likes of musket getting on your back about it so often?!
is liberal ideology really changing society for the worse? tell the women in saudi that or the guys building the world cup stadiums in qatar. sounds very conservative thinking for a 'radical socialist'

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 08:25 AM

"If you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between for and against is the mind's worst disease."

Zen master Seng-ts'an 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 08:47 AM

Akenaton seems rather old fashioned. I thought national socialism went out of fashion sixty mine years ago?

Achmelvich. I most certainly don't get on his back. I have the sneaking suspicion he might enjoy it. After all, he has an unhealthy interest in the sex life of those gay men who have a sex life in the first place and fantasies about them all being willing to be unfaithful.

Whatever floats your boat I suppose, but keep it 'up there' Eh Alex? We all have fantasising thoughts from time to time but you are a wee bit transparent..

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 02:18 PM

Achmelvich, I neither approve nor disapprove of homosexuals...I feel rather sorry for them in the way that they are abused by the "liberal" activists and in the way they must live their lives without the pain and joy of procreation and upbringing of their natural children. Homosexuality is a fact, to approve or disapprove of their choice of sexual partner would be ludicrous, like being "against homosexuality"...ludicrous. That does not equate to wishing homosexuality to be brought into the mainstream.
I know three homosexual couples and none of them have an desire to "marry", they are different and proud of their difference.
Homosexual "marriage" is a device to divide and distract from all the real inequalities which are so obvious to socialists....it is a smokescreen, a non issue, which has been built into a monolith by a greedy, immoral media and self serving politicians.

All the human rights are available through Civil Union...in fact in the UK at this juncture, homos have more "rights" that heteros. :0)
A real socialist looks to strengthening the whole community both economically and socially, not through personal rights....Homosexual "marriage" does nothing to strengthen society, it devalues marriage in the eyes of many and is used by "liberal" activists to attack and if possible abolish the Church, to them, a bastion of conservatism.
I myself am an atheist but I understand the strength many of my neighbours derive from a belief in their "god".

Despite the opposition on this forum, the health figures are stark and incontrovertible.
Which other demographic is "advised" to be tested every three months? None. If infection rates continue on their present course, what is to be done?
In London in 2011, 1 in 11 MSM carried the virus, in 2013, it was 1 in 8.
In some American cities it is 1 in 5......is this type of sexual relationship "just the same as a heterosexual one"......I don't think so

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 02:29 PM

I am a homosexual who opposes "gay marriage", am I a bigot?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 02:46 PM

He does go on and on, on his solitary topic, doesn't "he".
As if anyone takes such propaganda seriously.

If one wanted to find close to the same stuff on the internet, a simple Google search under gay hate groups, the literature would uncover material with mostly similar arguments (if not the same).

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw taking non-issue
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 03:38 PM

Its a non-issue sez he, but he don't half go on about it, eh ?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw punctuation hooligan
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 03:40 PM

It's it's

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 03:49 PM

I believe Akenaton says what Akenaton thinks myself. The person who is quoted on this thread as saying it is repugnant and against nature. The post above therefore confuses me.

Nobody wants your pity, although normal people out of the goodness of their heart might pity you.

I don't. I think society will be better when bigotry dies out.



Ed. Take that as read. Reading his posts, he isn't capable of such conclusions without the help of far right hate, nazi and pseudo religious sites.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 03:59 PM

A lesson in logic, to show how reasonable it is to assume you actually can deduce something broad-based by knowing and talking with three people:


I know three "bango playing" couples and none of them have an desire to "play guitar", they are different, "musically" and proud of their difference.

"Guitar playing " is a device to divide "music couples" and distract from all the real inequalities in "music" which are so obvious to "musical" socialists....it is a smokescreen, a non issue, which has been built into a monolith by a greedy, immoral media and self serving "musical" politicians.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 12:49 AM

Huh??...That made no sense....(Ed T), ""Guitar playing " is a device to divide "music couples" and distract from all the real inequalities in "music" which are so obvious to "musical" socialists."

Can you point out the 'evidence'???

GfS

P.S. Being opposed to a re-defining of marriage, to suit a political notion, should not be construed as 'hatred'...but rather a different opinion....which happens to be in the MAJORITY.....
Ake, Though I'm not 'taken in' by the 'religions' mentioned, the link was a good link. Thanks for posting it.....
...I'm sure it makes no sense to some....and common sense to others.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 01:04 AM

If you call a tail a leg, how many legs has a dog? Five? No, calling a tail a leg don't make it a leg.
Abraham Lincoln

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/a/abraham_lincoln_5.html#QBtajZPwcqlGV6aZ.99

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 03:10 AM

So you didn't read your mate's post then Goofus? I think you will find a wee bit more than not liking something that's fuck all to do with him. Scroll up and feel the hate oozing from every sweaty orifice.

By the way, the only people who can oppose a gay marriage are gay people having second thoughts about their upcoming nuptials. An existing wife or husband opposing bigamy can too, I suppose.

I can't answer for Dumbfuckistan but here in civilisation, everybody other than a few loony religious sects misinterpreting their book and a few old bigots welcomed and embraced the changes in law to put all people on an equal footing.

Patriotism? Yeah, proud to be in a country where hate and bigotry are shouted down and pushed to the fringes of society till they wither and disappear naturally.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 03:42 AM

Thank you Sanity.....freethinkers live!

The rest of you, it would be nice if some of you would make an attempt to address some of the points made in my post and the link which I provided.

Abusive messages are so bloody boring. This is a serious subject so please try to treat it seriously.
Ed, Achmelvich and guest seem to be making an effort, but I don't think the rest of you really understand the question, or care enough to find an answer.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 03:44 AM

The question. Can any adult marry the person they are in love with?

The answer. Yes.

Back in yer loch, monster.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 04:00 AM

The answer to YOUR question Ian is of course NO, and you know it very well.

I suppose the real question will never sink in.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw going "huh?"
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 06:02 AM

Yesterday he was telling us it was a non-issue. Today he's telling us it's a serious issue. He seems to think that he's a free-thinker. Random non-thinker would be nearer the mark.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 06:06 AM

Don't worry. Al was right. It might never sink in, but don't use your lack of intellect or low moral stance to excuse your horrible bigotry.

Nobody wants to read it. Some people are saddened and dismayed to read the lies and hate. I do wish you'd stop. Mudcat doesn't deserve to be on a list of websites that encourage homophobia but the way you are carrying on without intervention by moderators, it runs that risk.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 06:23 AM

""Huh??...That made no sense....(Ed T),""

You are finally seeing that your Mudcat team mate Ake makes little sense in his frequent and repeating (aka, one trick) anti homosexual rants, gfs. Both sides of the brain are there to use.
;)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 06:52 AM

"P.S. Being opposed to a re-defining of marriage, to suit a political notion, should not be construed as 'hatred'...but rather a different opinion....which happens to be in the MAJORITY....."

Another logical blooper from him who has departed sanity.

If the majority hold that different opinion, there would be no same sex marriage in any country other than the good ole US of A, where a majority is FORTY percent.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 07:05 AM

People change, but some dont. Over time the majority of people see the light.

The changing climate 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 07:50 AM

In the meantime, turn the torch off and keep the pathetic bigots in the dark where society can ignore them and not be faced with their nasty comments.

He says my husband and I are promiscuous, that we are incapable of a loving relationship, that we carry disease, that we are repugnant and against nature.

Presumably the moderators would be happy with a troll saying that about them and their loved ones?

I don't expect anyone to understand a love that they wouldn't ever experience any more than I could understand why I don't feel that way about women, but I don't think it perverted or unnatural for a man to love a woman.

If I did, I would possibly keep my irrational thought to myself.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 08:44 AM

Well said, Guest. He also thinks that, in spite of gay men being "promiscuous", gay marriage, presumably a really effective step in curbing that alleged promiscuity, should not be permitted. This is a prime example, one assumes, of what he means by "free-thinking". It reminds me of the inconsistent stance of some organised religions which teach not only that sex is a terrible thing designed strictly for procreation only, and that abortion is the greatest evil on the planet, whilst condemning contraception and proper, non-moralising sex education in schools.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 08:47 AM

Cor, sorry, grammar police. I should use my reading specs on the iPad. :-(

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 01:02 PM

iPads can be buggers. Although I doubt a thousand mistakes from my iPad could result in a single sentence from Akenaton or Goofus.

On adjacent threads, some are claiming the world wars were successful but how can they have been when nasty little fascists still lurk and taunt society with their segregation and second class citizen views, built on a tissue of lies?

Patriotism is about pride. I am perhaps proud of government recognition of equality. I am less proud of sharing a country or indeed planet with those who think the Nazis had a point.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 01:24 PM

""which happens to be in the MAJORITY..""

Where are those "facts" from on that one gfs?

Or, did you mean the majority of fellows in houses on your side of your street (odd numbered ones, I suspect), in Putin's Russia, or in your man-cave, church pew, or possibly club-house (I'm not speculating which one)?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 03:17 AM

Oh, go on. Speculation is fun. Ask Goofus and Akenaton. They do it all the time.

I'm sure, considering he doles it out, Goofus will be pleased to have people speculate.

I reckon pew. Although laid on his psychiatrist's couch could be a runner.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 03:36 AM

Steve Pshaw: "Yesterday he was telling us it was a non-issue. Today he's telling us it's a serious issue. He seems to think that he's a free-thinker. Random non-thinker would be nearer the mark."

Thinking is a process above mentally regurgitating propaganda, and exercising grey cells, spinning lame excuses, rationalizing it all away....while battling common sense.

Think about it..............................................if you think you have the ability.

When you begin to ask 'Why?', and not settle for just the 'answers' (Read: 're-assurances to a bias'),...and then ask 'Why?', a few 'layers down', you may find new possibilities, not before considered........


...just a thought.


GfS


P.S.....That's the difference between, learning HOW to think, rather than WHAT to think.
Try it.....it's fun!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 04:32 AM

So when are you booked in for lessons Goofus?

😂😂😂

Anyway, I thought you once admitted you were a Christian? They seem to be told what to think rather than how to think. I know this because strangely we still have a few religious bods over here. Not as many as there used to be mind.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 04:33 AM

Steve , sorry, but perhaps my post was a bit confusing.

Homosexual "marriage" in my opinion is "a non issue", but MSM health rates are obviously a very serious issue indeed.

Unfortunately, in order to obtain the first, we find it necessary to conceal (from most people), the second?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 06:36 AM

So you disagree with what Akenaton says about gay people? Or were you lying when you gave your opinion? Or are you lying now? Why is it a non issue? Have you realised a marriage between two men is as equal and wonderful as yours was?

Not surprising he disagrees with himself given what a disagreeable piece of pond life he is.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 08:44 AM

A hypothetical question for Ake:

If a new STD appeared and spread rapidly, primarily among single heterosexual people...


would you consider it appropriate to discourage heterosexual marriage until the disease is eliminated?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 09:14 AM

Get serious guest, if a new terminal STD appeared amongst heterosexuals at the rates of HIV amongst MSM......we would not have to worry about marriage rights!

Humanity would be five minutes from extinction.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Some bloke in Scotland
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 10:09 AM

So, lets get serious;

In The UK,

33% of people receiving treatment for HIV are women.

The largest percentage of all people living with HIV are heterosexual sex acquired, at 48%

HIV acquired by gay men having sex is 44%

Don't take my word for it.

People living with HIV

If Akenaton's answer was applied to the real picture, black people make up just 1.8% of the population but 36% of people living with HIV.

So, prevent black people from getting married?

Why does he lie to justify his irrational hatred? Only 5% of people in The UK with HIV are in Scotland anyway.

I suggest anybody who wonders if Akenaton or Keith A of Hertford have a point clicks on the link and indeed the links from and around that page.

The truth is, there is no substance for his hatred other than hatred itself. I don't like the idea that someone lives not too far from my home who has such an outlook on life. He is a shame to our wonderful set of communities around the loch.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 11:23 AM

""According to the Centers and Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Hispanics have a disproportionately high HIV infection rate. In fact, the CDC has found that Hispanics living in the United States have an HIV infection rate that is more than three times higher than Caucasians.""

Ban "latino" marriage?


Latinos 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 11:27 AM

From Some Bloke's link: fewer than three people per thousand are living with HIV in the UK. Now that is not good, but it isn't a plague either.

Another thing: 95% of people with HIV acquired it via sex without a condom. Cor. So what can we draw from that? Lessee:

Ban gay marriage? Yes or no? If yes, tell us how that would help.

Herd gay men into clinics for compulsory testing? Yes or no? If yes, what do we then do with the HIV-positive guys? And could the negative guys, a huge majority of those tested, sue us for false arrest or something like that?

Provide freely-available cheap or free condoms along with advice? Yes or no?

Radically improve sex and relationships education in schools (a disgrace at the moment)? Yes or no? (I seem to remember Ake dismissing that as irrelevsnt...)

The facts and figures should be there to inform our next practical moves in order to reduce the incidence of infection, not provide a platform from which homophobes and assorted moralisers can triumphally preach their bigotry. HIV is a primarily a practical issue, as is abortion, not a moral one, and it needs practical solutions. When I was at school, both as a pupil and later as a teacher, the people who, on the whole, were by far the most damaging in terms of relationships education were the people who thought sex was mostly a bad thing most of the time, that is, the nuns and priests. Far from helping, they just got in the way of progress. In the same way, the last people we need to be listening to on the matter of HIV rates are told-you-so homophobes, of whom we have a prime example in our midst, to the eternal shame of this forum.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 11:49 AM

The actual facts and figures are used to plan, commission and fund health, social and educational services. The education side is patchy, especially with faith schools allowed to opt out of sexual health education.

I have been up till recently very involved in this, yet have had to put up with Akenaton and Keith calling me a liar and disgrace to the healthcare service. Then they put their own slant, distortion and porkies forward to question the very existence of gay people. Keith last week started rattling on about me being wrong about a report that I helped quality assure and another (ex) Mudcatter helped write... Then, being Keith, provided a link to the report that said what I said it did anyway! I assume he thinks most people read his bile and take it on the chin without clicking the link. The problem is, some homophobes are more intelligent in their own way and we can see in religious and right wing political circles, they have credibility and influence.

Homophobia is a problem. Waiting for homophobes to die, Al's solution, is all well and good but in the meantime they use every avenue they can to sow the seeds of doubt in people's minds.

It is so sad that a music site with so much to offer is allowing itself to be a tool for incitement to hatred. Hatred of quite a few members of Mudcat for that matter. But moderators don't seem to take that into account.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 11:57 AM

Guest, your figures as presented are invalid as they do not take into account the difference in percentage of the population, between heteros and MSM

There are almost one hundred times more heterosexuals than MSM in our population.
Anyway, argue with CDC and PHE not me, they provide the definitive figures.
Why do you not write and complain about THEIR lies?
CDC say 78% of all new infections are amongst MSM
PHE say 60% of all new infections are amongst MSM

I do NOT! say that all MSM carry the virus, but an unacceptable percentage rate DO.....please understand that something must be done to arrest the rise in infections

In Cuba, the disease was almost completely eliminated by Fidel Castro's regime using regular testing and contact tracing.

Please give us your views on how you would tackle the problem, suggesting that there is no problem will not be acceptable to thinking people.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 12:20 PM

Now he is saying The National AIDS Trust are lying. As they are quoting (and providing a link to) PHE, I think they are telling the truth, don't you?

If you have nothing to justify villifying gay men, and bear in mind there is nothing for you to present anyway, is there any chance whatsoever of you apologising to the gay folk music aficionados on Mudcat for your behaviour?

Alternatively, what are you going to suggest to tackle all the black men and women at risk here, or, as you love to confuse our figures with USA figures, all the Heterosexual Hispanics?

Just out of interest, our screening programme is far more successful than the Cuban one. They class their results on those receiving antiretrovirals, and the majority cannot afford them, the state system has to ration them. Additionally, Cuban health workers insisted on it being voluntary screening so as not to ruin their chances of working abroad. South Africa especially has a reciprocal arrangement and they would strike off doctors and nurses involved in assault, regardless of which country. Just as we recently struck off an American doctor working here who was found to have been involved in executing prisoners in The States.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 12:23 PM

Most of this stuff/opinions (prejudiced, or otherwise) , and local cherry-picked statistics (picked, IMO, to justify broader opinions) have been discussed not that long ago-even by some of the same posters.

So, what's new?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 01:38 PM

Fuck all is new.

HIV rates are constantly shown to be a mixed bag. HIV rates have nothing to do with being gay any more than they have anything to do with being heterosexual.

There are some, two in particular who would have people believe otherwise. Whenever they publish hatred, I shall confront it. So, it seems, will others.

Nothing new to see here.



Actually, there is something new. He rattles on about Cuba, whose health ministry worked with us to introduce screening and did a fairly good job of it. The one problem, as reported in the Lancet, British Medical Journal and elsewhere was that they chose to use numbers of people receiving antiretrovirals, which misses a large part of their population. Still, they mean't well and could speak of success. Sadly, the large rural population, especially young female sex workers slip through the net.

In the UK, the take up of screening is a huge success story, with new infections being caught at an early stage and late diagnosis falling, especially in the vulnerable segment of the gay population. Less so with sub Sahara origin heterosexuals, but working on it.

And as ever, sexual infections absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with being gay, straight or chasing sheep in a field. Anybody is vulnerable in any situation if they don't take precautions, and much safer if they do. The largest rampant sexually transmitted disease is Chlamydia, but despite making young women barren and shattering future family life, the crocodile tears concern for the population from Akenaton doesn't seem to touch it, as it is rarely a gay problem.

Funny that.

Actually, it isn't funny at all. Its sick.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 03:07 PM

From reading over the document below, it seems that Cuba pretty much followed what World HIV health organizations suggests. Because of cuba's small size, social and political structure, relatively isolated nature (while many tourits visit resort areas, opportunities for sexual interaction is limited),and exphasis on health and education, detection, treztment and education initiatives was easier to deliver than in more complex situations.

However, what is interesting is when MSM rates began to rise, efforts werd made to increase social acceptance of gays, including in schools-versus Ake's approach to furtger demonize and stigmatize the gsy community.


""Since the 1990s, when the Cuban HIV epidemic became one characterized as being most prevalent among MSM, the question of public education — in particular dealing with the compound issue of homophobia in a macho Latino culture and of public stigmatization of and discrimination against HIV patients — has required greater focus. Campaigns in support of sexual diversity, considered a part of the "social inclusion" policy, are first introduced to children through the school system, which begins sex education (including sexual diversity education) at grade five. The national program, including a TV soap opera with gay and lesbian individuals as well as characters who are HIV-positive, is led by the National Center for Sex Education (CENESEX). The Federation of Cuban Women (FMC) began sex education programs in the early 1970s and set up CENESEX in 1989. Led by Mariela Castro (daughter of Raul Castro and the late Vilma Espín, a founder of the FMC), CENESEX stresses acceptance of sexual diversity and has attracted international attention in recent years for its campaigns for the rights of transgender persons, including the recognition of an individual's gender identity, regardless of birth sex, and provision of state-funded sexual reassignment surgery.61

Cuba's National Center for the Prevention of STDs and HIV/AIDS, with international support (for example, from the United Nations Development Programme [UNDP]), hosts training programs, assessment, and research in-person and helpline telephone counseling, networking, condom distribution, help for mutual support groups, nutrition education, and support for vulnerable groups. An "Afroache" program trains educators and develops specially focused educational materials for addressing the issues from that religious perspective as it is practiced in Cuba.62 Although churches appear to have no great influence on the educational campaign or the use of condoms, some of the material developed by the National Center includes the basic information that safe sex includes abstinence and that this is the only form of safe sex endorsed by the Catholic Church. Nevertheless, most materials provide an overwhelming emphasis on the use of condoms, which are distributed freely, in the millions, through the National Center.

Education programs must be periodically reviewed. The manual for groups working in HIV/AIDS prevention refers to a method developed by US academic Dr. David Kolb. This method is a teaching and learning process that emphasizes a circular relationship among concrete experience, observation and reflection, conceptualization, and practice.63 Long-term cooperation was also developed with some international agencies, in particular the World Health Organization and the UNDP. The National Center for the Prevention of STDs and HIV/AIDS, for example, was created in 1998 with support from the UNDP and Doctors without Borders (Holland) to help expand HIV education.64

Many of the health promotion pamphlets that this author observed in use during 2005–2006 were aimed at the general population, with some material aimed more directly at men who have sex with men (for example, "Siempre conmigo/Always with me" and "Hablando entre nosotros/Speaking amongst ourselves") or addressing the male responsibility for condom use (for example, "Los hombres marcan la diferencia/Men make the difference"). Another national pamphlet addressed cultural attitudes, urging, "Judge your friends by their qualities, not by their sexual orientation," and stressing acceptance of sexual diversity to counter prejudices and stigmas. This pamphlet states that lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender identities are all valid forms of sexuality and gender identity and that "understanding and accepting people as they are, will make you grow as a better person" (for example, a pamphlet titled, "He is also one of us"). Local music stars have been enlisted to help promote safe sex, for example in the national HIV magazine Lazo Adentro.65

Cuba 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 03:35 PM

Thank you Ed.

Not often someone tries to understand a subject.

You truly are a threat to bigotry at times.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 03:51 PM

You're a good man, Ed. Kudos!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Depressed
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 06:19 PM

Oh dear. The same old same old. Whatever thread is started ends in a political/semantic battle. Isn't it time to pull the plug on this weary old site?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 06:48 PM

No.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 07:54 PM

Cuba's success in fighting the aids epidemic was based on rigorous testing, contact tracing and the use of sanatoria in the 80s and nineties.

"Dr Byron Barksdale, director of the Cuban AIDS Project, an American charity, says "The US can learn a lot of things from Cuba about HIV/AIDS." He told the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science this year that the US too should educate people intensively if they are newly diagnosed with HIV infection. "I don't know if six weeks or eight weeks are the magic numbers," he said referring to the education programme, "but that is certainly a longer time than is given to people in the US who receive such a diagnosis. They may get about five minutes' worth of education."

But he also admits to cultural differences between the two countries that would make it difficult to implement the Cuban model. "In the US, the rights of the individual are foremost, but in Cuba the individual is expected to do what is necessary to protect the collective society." That is why people in high risk categories are willing to roll up their sleeves and not protest HIV tests, he adds. In Havana the law is clear on both the rights and duties of HIV-carriers, and those suspected of being infected. Anyone who is HIV positive, who does not use a condom and does not tell their sexual partner, commits a crime."

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 08:05 PM

So what exactly is your point?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 09:08 PM

""Cuba's success in fighting the aids epidemic was based on rigorous testing, contact tracing and the use of sanatoria in the 80s and nineties.""

The site/source I linked to says that this is not so.

Regardless of the actual reasons, just because measures were successful in Cuba- where the level of government control on society and individuals is comprehensive, does not mean they would be effective or deemed acceptable by societies elsewhere.

However, it is impressive that the Cuban government recognized the importance of reducing the negative stigma that gays faced in that society and actually did something to try and turn it around.

I have been in Cuba very many times and have been impressed that the government puts a big priority on excellent health care for its citizens. I have also noticed that prostitution and intervenous drug use are comparatively low, two major transmission routes in most other nations.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 03:16 AM

Cuba had a good base to begin with. My main concern is that a poor county propping up a decent health service is always exploited.

Cuban medical schools churn out doctors at state expense. They are fully accredited and only need article 14 (an exam) in order to practice on many first world countries. Cuba has a trading deal with South Africa.

What happens is that Cuban doctors emigrate, as the deal allows, to South Africa where they can get more pay and a better quality of life. Their visa however does not allow them to seek employment in other countries without claiming asylum.

South African doctors, being priced out, move to The EU, especially The UK and Germany.

The upshot? The only countries not having the training expense are those that can afford to train!

It's a problem. Not sure what you do about it though.

Anyway, as the myth of Cuba is now put to bed, and I have been there too, both in business many years ago and more recently advising on clinical governance, we can again ask what any of this has to do with Akenaton and his hatred of gay people. If he has a solution for HIV, he should address the issues.

If he has a problem sharing the planet with others, I suggest an easy solution.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Some bloke in Scotland
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 05:36 AM

Patriotism has many faces, and I am proud to live in The UK where tolerance of others and universal healthcare is still a given. Although that said, and mainly due, according to The Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh, the recent independence uncertainty, over 10% of all consultant doctor posts remain vacant in Scotland.

That said, and whilst I could never vote for them anyway, The SNP and their / our first minister have reiterated that two main focuses drive their strategy.

Equality and business.

If they drop this silly independence that was emphatically rejected, the day to day policies could be ones that I could take an interest in. Patriotism goes beyond party politics I suppose, and yes, I can be proud of my adopted region of The Uk, Scotland. My husband and I are pleased that our vote helped thwart a piece of gross stupidity. Most of our neighbours seem to feel the same.

Mind you, the man the SNP sent door knocking here in Inveraray in the run up to the vote seemed a bit disturbed. I couldn't work out whether that was the party line or a personal issue...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 06:36 AM

Well you could make the selection system for training doctors more up to date. A while back there was a documentary about people applying for medical school in this country. it seemed to me that perfectly suitable and qualified candidates were being knocked back on pure grounds of snobbery.

the process was blatantly class based.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 06:52 AM

My point Steve, is that Ian believes that the Cuban strategy is criminal.

He refers to "the rounding up of hiv sufferers and subjecting them to invasive medical procedures"

Which to be "slightly fair", is current "liberal" ideology.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 07:07 AM

"But he also admits to cultural differences between the two countries that would make it difficult to implement the Cuban model. "In the US, the rights of the individual are foremost, but in Cuba the individual is expected to do what is necessary to protect the collective society."

Do you understand what that means when applied to the current hiv epidemic amongst MSM?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Some bloke in Scotland
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 07:41 AM

Al. The system is designed to take the best and only the best. There are never enough places, granted, but having enough A levels and A* GCSE or equivalent isn't the only issue.

We have a system, that doesn't quite work, of planning for twenty years hence. Today's 18 year olds will, in many specialties only become consultants by 36+ and the attrition rate is high, as medicine is by far the most demanding profession in terms of training. I am bemused by how many top barristers turned to law after not getting a training number at some part of their career. Don't forget, over 70% of doctors in your average hospital are junior, meaning they are employed on behalf of the post graduate deanery of a local university. They may yet not make the grade.

Me? I'm a doctor, but failed to get a registrar training number and am now a reader at a medical school at a university.

The documentary rightly points out that the attrition rate is lower with students from public schools. I was taught at a comprehensive and my public school colleagues were, on average, far more prepared for the intensive training. I did my uni' and ten years of junior doctor training before being tempted by academia. The early learning curve was steep and my school qualifications of thirty five years ago wouldn't get me in medical school now, not by a long way.

I don't think we choose on background and although I am not involved in admissions would argue we go out of our way to be inclusive, but yes, class base is a realistic assessment if educational attainment is deemed to be class based as medical schools can, should and will only put the very best through for training, and rightly so. Don't blame the medical schools for choosing the best, blame the education system for where the best are delivered from. We just need to get smarter in specialty training and that doesn't start till seven years after starting 'uni. How many GPs? How many Cardio Thoracic surgeons? Ten years ago, elderly care physicians were deemed to be the wrong way of doing things, now we realise they are a good thing... Advancements and circumstance, crystal ball gazing to give it another title.

Just a point for the criminal from round the loch. Nobody in Cuba, not known for liberalism, has rounded up anybody. The real Musket (I am one of the Muskets but most of the sexual health posts have been dealt with by Ian) may answer himself, but I know the Cuban screening was based on the UK system in place that has resulted in huge success, especially with gay people. Ed has given the facts above. People told they have a duty to attend screening, just as we say.

People who engage in unsafe sex should in both their interest and the interest of others volunteer for screening. Whether they be gay or straight. The latest report clearly shows the huge success in encouraging gay men who are sexually active to come forward. The high early detection and low late detection in that demographic shows the way forward. More people living with HIV got it from heterosexual sex but if you are sexually active and don't use a condom, gay men stand a slightly higher chance of becoming HIV +

I do wish the monster would stop lying all the same. He says he hates gay people, so having said it and never explaining why, not that anybody is interested, perhaps he could stop vilifying us? He is known where I live, and sadly, it isn't just Mudcat that has to put up with him. He is known locally as "here he comes" and "there he goes."

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 09:24 AM

Cuba worked hard to remove stigma, introduce public and school education to recognise gay people as equal members of society and a screening programme for anybody who is sexually active, gay or straight to volunteer for screening.

Other than young girls who are sex workers, the WHO sponsored screening has seen excellent results and as it is based on the UK model in part, comparisons can be made. The only difference is that their results are not taking into account those who test positive but fall through the net result treatment. Sadly.

Why is Akenaton mentioning Cuba? It is an excellent small example of the present UK screening programme and demonstrates how The UK is dealing with this problem.

The main issue for The UK is getting sub Sahara origin men and women to engage. If the rest of the at risk people engaged as well as gay men who happen to be at risk do, we might be able to reduce HIV further. It affects a very small but still significant number of people. More people living with HIV on The UK got it from Heterosexual sex than from gay sex.

Full stop.

Akenaton and his far right websites that he gets his ideas from need to find different lies because these are busted.