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singaround etiquette

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Dave the Gnome 31 Dec 18 - 03:06 AM
GUEST,Observer 31 Dec 18 - 02:07 AM
Big Al Whittle 30 Dec 18 - 08:21 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 30 Dec 18 - 07:14 PM
GUEST,Observer 30 Dec 18 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 29 Dec 18 - 07:15 PM
Tattie Bogle 29 Dec 18 - 12:37 PM
Jack Campin 29 Dec 18 - 07:23 AM
G-Force 29 Dec 18 - 06:09 AM
GUEST,ST 29 Dec 18 - 04:25 AM
Andy7 28 Dec 18 - 06:42 PM
GUEST 28 Dec 18 - 05:52 PM
Acorn4 28 Dec 18 - 04:48 PM
Jack Campin 28 Dec 18 - 02:37 PM
beachcomber 28 Dec 18 - 02:19 PM
Andy7 28 Dec 18 - 01:33 PM
GUEST 28 Dec 18 - 11:32 AM
Jack Campin 27 Dec 18 - 02:37 PM
Andy7 27 Dec 18 - 02:24 PM
leeneia 27 Dec 18 - 02:19 PM
Jack Campin 27 Dec 18 - 06:49 AM
Sandra in Sydney 27 Dec 18 - 06:41 AM
Big Al Whittle 27 Dec 18 - 04:00 AM
Joe Offer 26 Dec 18 - 10:44 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 07 Sep 16 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,Desi C 07 Sep 16 - 11:42 AM
ollaimh 06 Sep 16 - 09:33 PM
Uncle Tone 06 Sep 16 - 03:27 PM
BrooklynJay 06 Sep 16 - 03:16 PM
Uncle Tone 06 Sep 16 - 12:07 PM
mg 13 Mar 16 - 07:08 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 16 - 02:42 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Mar 16 - 02:16 PM
Bat Goddess 13 Mar 16 - 02:02 PM
JHW 12 Mar 16 - 04:12 PM
Tattie Bogle 12 Mar 16 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Raggytash 12 Mar 16 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Musket 12 Mar 16 - 04:41 AM
Will Fly 12 Mar 16 - 04:14 AM
GUEST,Musket 12 Mar 16 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,Rachel 11 Mar 16 - 06:17 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Mar 16 - 05:51 PM
CupOfTea 11 Mar 16 - 05:38 PM
Steve Gardham 11 Mar 16 - 05:25 PM
mg 11 Mar 16 - 05:06 PM
Thompson 11 Mar 16 - 02:50 PM
Steve Gardham 11 Mar 16 - 01:52 PM
matt milton 11 Mar 16 - 12:21 PM
matt milton 11 Mar 16 - 12:10 PM
Acorn4 11 Mar 16 - 11:34 AM
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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 03:06 AM

I am pretty sure by the writing style and belligerent attitude that the "observer" is an ex member who has been banned from posting below the line for just such nonsense, Nick. Just not worth even responding too.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 02:07 AM

Delighted Nick, now that I know that your little tale was basically a crock and should not have been taken seriously, which begs the question why you felt compelled to mention it - it has nothing whatsoever to do with the thread.

By the way as to who thought they were being intimidated:

1. Who ended up "effing" and "blinding"? - You by your own telling of the story.

2. In describing the end of the exchange it was you yourself who wrote this - "Landlord looks like a mongoose viewing a snake but decides he had better back down on the grounds that he is about 5ft 6' and I am 6ft 2' and from South London." - It is perfectly clear who you thought was doing the intimidating.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 08:21 PM

I don't think you can legislate folk clubs. either they're all right or not. Some work in shitty places with awful residents and horrendous landlords. Some of the dearest sweetest people have failed to get an audience, and the landlord has been the soul of generosity. free food. free raffle prizes.

theres no working it out,   or calling it. in my experience.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 07:14 PM

The landlord was 'retired' having abused a woman of pensionable age in the car park. He was so objectionable he had numerous bad reviews on line and the brewery took a dim view. He was replaced by a very nice younger couple who incidentally had no problem in serving me a pint of tap water. I came back into the pub to buy a meal with my wife on the strength of it. The landlord was attempting to intimidate ME you muffin, and if you don't know what coming from South London has to do with being intimidated soft lad I suggest you lie down and take a reality pill. Meanwhile try and put your brain in gear before posting. The story was not exactly supposed to be taken that seriously. This should now be an end to the matter on this thread, and all pigs are fuelled up and ready to fly. It's not fair for the other contributors of this thread if it goes off into a slanging match. So here you are my myopic observer you've got the last word. Happy now?


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 06:52 PM

Re: Nick Dow's story.

My sympathy is entirely with the Landlord (Now an ex-Landlord we are told, who by inference, lost his livelihood because Nick's warm and welcoming crowd moved to another Pub - My guess is if all they are drinking is tap water they'll have to move on from there as well in the not too distant future) - The man has a living to make FFS, any decent human being who knows anything about "pub culture" should know that and appreciate the problem from the Landlords perspective. He is the one doing you a favour for letting you play/sing in HIS Pub.

Liked this though (which, to me, speaks volumes about our story teller):

"Landlord looks like a mongoose viewing a snake but decides he had better back down on the grounds that he is about 5ft 6' and I am 6ft 2' and from South London."

You have probably only ever seen a mongoose fight a snake on telly Nick - Out in the Far East they used to put such contests on as a bar sport with bets on the outcome. The mongoose's contestant was normally a Cobra - The snake NEVER WON.

Don't know what coming from South London has got to do with anything. Always a bad move to attempt to intimidate a Landlord (irrespective of relative heights involved) on his own premises - there are stories of people who have been banned from entering licensed premises in entire towns for doing just that.

Care to tell us when your next free concert is on? Will the tap water be free?


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 29 Dec 18 - 07:15 PM

Got to tell you this story. The singaround was friendly and welcoming, the Landlord of the pub was a different matter. He is now an Ex Landlord.

Nick...(entering the pub) 'Can I have a pint of Water please.'

Landlord....'I'm not letting you sit here just drinking water.'

Nick …. 'Well I was going to offer to put some money in the charity box.'

Landlord...(aggressively) 'Well that doesn't put money in our till.'

Nick... 'Fair enough, I don't mind paying for it.'

Landlord...'You can buy bottles of water.'

Nick... 'I would prefer tap water.'

Landlord.... 'I told you...

Nick....'Alright alright, a bottle of water then.'

Landlord.. (Accusingly and with a sneer) You (pointing) do concerts don't you.

Nick...'Yes.'

Landlord 'Do you do them for nothing?'

Nick (getting pissed off) 'Yes I do as it happens.'

Landlord (Taken aback) 'Well...er...We do a lot for charity too.'

Nick...'It f***ing sounds like it.'

Landlord looks like a mongoose viewing a snake but decides he had better back down on the grounds that he is about 5ft 6' and I am 6ft 2' and from South London.
I took my bottle of water joined the singaround, and made it last all night. The singaround moved pub. I can't think why!


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 Dec 18 - 12:37 PM

Newcomer to our session, though already known by some from elsewhere: argumentative and disruptive, after another singer introduces a song with a couple of words re the origin of the song.
New man shouts, "Where's your evidence?" not once but several times.
Towards the end (no, he hadn't been thrown out yet!) we chose an "all join in" song as a finisher.
"It's in D" says new man.
"Too high for the ladies" sez I.
"No, it's in D".
I played the first 3 notes in C on my button accordion.
"You're playing it in D" sez he.
"No I'm not" sez I.
"Yes you are" sez he.
"No I'm not"............... (FFS, I DO know what notes I'm playing, thinks I!)
Sorry, you're not welcome back new man!


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Dec 18 - 07:23 AM

Use of aide-memoires is intended to satisfy another requirement of etiquette: don't be repetitive. People who perform only from memory often have tiny repertoires and run out of willing listeners VERY fast. If you use a memory aid can keep it fresh, even playing weekly in the same venue.

This is largely a consequence of the mass media. The recording industry and its successors like Internet broadcasting can keep a supply of new material flowing far faster than anyone can listen to it, even within a single narrow genre. So if you're trying to do the same sort of thing in live performance, you have massive competition that wasn't there a lifetime ago. Nobody could memorize enough songs to compete with Tobar an Dualchais, let alone Sony or Spotify. To have even a shred of credibility as an entertainer, particularly when you also have a day job, you need that iPhone or you'll be boring.

I thought Walter Benjamin might have had something to say about this, so I just flipped through "The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction". He doesn't - he seems to assume that mass-produced art will just supersede the hand-made kind wherever they come in contact. Folkies just assume he was wrong without thinking about it. It might be helpful if they thought a bit more carefully about what our enterprise is trying to do in the present age.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: G-Force
Date: 29 Dec 18 - 06:09 AM

I've just opened this thread (I know it's been going a long time) but please may I repeat the fact that older people, and that includes me, have a lot more trouble remembering the words than years ago. I hope I am still a good singer, and I do make large efforts to learn words, but I simply cannot rely entirely on memory, even for songs I know well.   Far better to have that sheet of paper handy and produce a good performance. I'm not suggesting for one minute that you rely on it entirely and certainly no mobiles (ghastly). One tip I've found useful is to keep a finger on the verse you're singing so you've got instant access to the next line if needed without slavishly reading the words. After all, you need to keep an eye on the audience to make sure they're listening! So guys, please, let's have a little tolerance for us old folkies!


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,ST
Date: 29 Dec 18 - 04:25 AM

"it took me quite some time - then, and afterwards at other events - of staying quiet, observing, listening, and watching for hints." (Andy7)

What's wrong with that? That's always been my preferred practice. A bit like the sheets of paper (and now electronics), it seems that everyone today wants a shortcut instead of being prepared to take the time to learn something properly.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Andy7
Date: 28 Dec 18 - 06:42 PM

I really don't this to become any kind of argument between me and thee, 'Guest'; I have no particular axe to grind here!

But my point is valid. Yes, courtesy and common sense are important, as I've already said. And I have plenty of both.

But they were not enough, at my first ever weekend folk event, for me to understand exactly how things were, and what I should or shouldn't do/say/sing.

I'd never experienced such an occasion before; and it took me quite some time - then, and afterwards at other events - of staying quiet, observing, listening, and watching for hints.

In those days, I'd have so welcomed some detailed guidance such as that offered by Joe! (No pun intended just there!)


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 18 - 05:52 PM

Andy 7- am not convinced about there being ANY more to it than courtesy & common sense- if you don't have those in any context, never mind justsingarounds, you won't get far!


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Acorn4
Date: 28 Dec 18 - 04:48 PM

A few years back I witnessed someone doing a sea shanty from a mobile phone down load.

They lost the signal half way through the second verse.

"Ang on lads, can't haul away for the moment - no signal!"


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Dec 18 - 02:37 PM

Let's not go there. There are reasons, and not all of them are bad ones.

One thing that is fortunately rather rare in sessions and singarounds, virtually unknown in Scotland: racist putdowns of other people's musical cultures. Doesn't often need pointing out, but it looks like the message hasn't got through quite loudly enough in Canada, to judge by Olive's message a couple of years upthread.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: beachcomber
Date: 28 Dec 18 - 02:19 PM

But how should one react to (Happening more and more frequently in "Sing song sessions" in my rural area of West Waterford, Ireland)the phenomenon of singers who refer during their performance to their iphones, for Lyrics and , in many cases, for just chords or even musical notation ???
It was the newer, younger, participants who introduced this a few years back but now, it has become the norm for even older people who "should know better !" (or should they ?)


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Andy7
Date: 28 Dec 18 - 01:33 PM

Well no, it's not sad at all!

A lot of people are newcomers to such events - we all were, once! And there's a lot more to the etiquette than courtesy and common sense, helpful though those attributes are!

I really wish I'd been given such helpful guidance, when I first started going away to folk music weekends.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 18 - 11:32 AM

do they ask questions at the end of all this perfectly valid advice document & issue grades & certificates?
It just boils down to courtesy and common sense to me & rather sad it had to be put together at all.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Dec 18 - 02:37 PM

I imagine the chicken wing method is to flap your elbows like a cockerel crowing before projecting a glob of mucus straight up to stick on the ceiling.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Andy7
Date: 27 Dec 18 - 02:24 PM

Yes, it's a great document, Joe! It covers so many different aspects that will help a camp - or any event - to run smoothly.

Obviously the lion's share of the responsibility lies with the organisers of an event, who so often give freely of their time, their hearts and their souls (not just during the event but for weeks and months beforehand) to make it a success, and to ensure that participants have a great experience.

But all of us who take part can do a great deal to help those organisers, and to help each other. And actually, it makes the experience a lot more fun, sharing the commitment (and the chores!), and thus feeling fully involved!


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: leeneia
Date: 27 Dec 18 - 02:19 PM

what is the chicken wing method? Coughing into the sleeve on your forearm? What if I have on short sleeves?


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Dec 18 - 06:49 AM

Joe's document reminds me of someone I heard of who went to US folk festivals in the 1970s. He always took two toothbrushes because anybody who'd ask to borrow yours would never understand why you'd say no.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 27 Dec 18 - 06:41 AM

Joe, it an amazing document, I'm planning to pass it on to friends

sandra


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Dec 18 - 04:00 AM

If any of you know this song, and feel they'd to join in the chorus....just BELT UP!

You're rubbish, and I'm great.
In fact, I'm so good. Just listen, and be lost in wonder at my general magnificence.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Dec 18 - 10:44 PM

The San Francisco Folk Music Club's Camp Harmony just came out with its annual list of reminders. Excuse the formatting errors, but I think this is pretty good stuff:


    We're very excited to welcome you to our new location! Please read these important reminders:
    ? On the first day you are registered, arrive AFTER 2:00pm.
    ? Check your housing assignment email. If you are registered Economy, you need to bring linens and towels with you. If you are registered semi-private, linens and towels are included. Your housing assignment email also has many helpful hints about what to bring. And speaking of what you bring...
    ? Every year at Camp Harmony, our clean-up crew brings home a phenomenal quantity of left-behind objects. Be mindful while you are at camp, and check before you leave that you have all your belongings.
    ? Please read the below information on etiquette at Camp, even if you have attended in the past:

    Etiquette at Camp Harmony (and other SFFMC Events)
    Thank you for registering for Camp Harmony! You may be an old hand at San Francisco Folk Music Club camps, or you this might be your first time coming to the New Year?s Camp. Either way, we?d like to remind you of some of the ways we all get along together. These basic rules of etiquette are some general guidelines to make sure that everyone has the best experience of camp possible.

    Workshops
    ? Workshops are focused on a single subject, and generally have a facilitator who would like to present or share some material. Often, but not always, there is an intention for other participants to share what they have as well.
    ? Workshop leaders should arrive on time and let the other participants know what is expected of them.
    ? Workshop leaders should also be aware of the time and end on time so the next workshop can start on time.
    ? Workshop leaders have final say in the format of their workshop. It?s their show, please let them host it the way they wish. If there is general sharing of material, they may choose to go around the room in a circle, where everyone gets a turn (time permitting), or they may choose to go popcorn-style, where people go in a more organic order.
    ? Participants may pass when it comes to their turn; it is also common for them to make a request for a song or other piece that they would like to hear but don?t know (or aren?t confident about). This is fine, with the understanding that not every request needs to be fulfilled.
    ? Singing along with the choruses is generally encouraged; a person leading a song should indicate and possibly rehearse the chorus if its not a well-known song. That said, bear in mind that a person may be singing a different version of the song than you know, so listen carefully the first time through just to be sure. Even if they get the song wrong, that?s how the folk music process works, so bear with it and if you have questions about a version, ask after the song or after the workshop is over.
    ? If someone stumbles over the words, ask before helping. They may need their memory jogged in a different way or be working on a different version.
    ? If you?re stumbling over the words, ask for help. There?s no shame in a mental lapse.
    ? Let the song leader be the song leader. Don?t take over a song that someone else is leading simply because they?re not as strong a singer or as familiar with the song as you are. Similarly, don?t play an instrument on a song someone else is leading unless you have been asked.

    Jam Sessions
    ? Jam sessions are made up of a group of musicians, often with many different instruments, all playing the same song. They can be happen in the regular workshop spaces, or in one of several jam-friendly areas around the camp, or even in private rooms. They may or may not be planned.
    ? Listen before you start playing, especially if you?re not familiar with the other performers.
    ? If you come upon a public jam session already in progress, it?s still polite to ask if you can join. This is doubly true if you play percussion, brass, or battlefield instruments (drums, horns, or bagpipes).
    ? Be respectful of private spaces. If you hear great music coming from a camper?s residence and there?s no sign welcoming you in, knock or just listen. Please be considerate of nappers and sleepers who share your lodgings.

    Dances
    ? Anyone may ask anyone to dance. The tradition at camp is to change partners for each dance. We especially encourage folks to ask dancers who have been sitting out, and experienced dancers to ask new dancers, so that everyone gets a chance to dance.
    ? People of any gender may dance either role, or both. If you know how to dance one role and want to learn the other, plenty of folks in the hall will be happy to partner with you and help you out. Dance with whoever comes at you. Don?t assume that the role someone is dancing is based on their gender presentation.
    ? You are always free to say no when someone asks you to dance. You don?t have to give a reason you can just say No, thank you. If you ask someone to dance and they say No, take it gracefully and move on.
    ? Communicate your needs to your partner so they know how to give you the most comfortable dance. You can always speak up if a dancer is doing anything that makes you uncomfortable: for example, Please swing slower, or, I?d like your hand a little higher.
    ? Be sensitive to the safety of your fellow dancers. Never force a partner to twirl or jerk a partner?s hand, arm or shoulder. Always ask your partner if it is ok, before doing your own special swing move, twirl or dip.
    ? Dance conservatively with anyone you don't know well. Remember that your partners comfort zone may be different than yours. Respect others personal dance space, do not dance too close or insist on eye contact.
    ? Please be thoughtful in your hygiene and do not wear scented products. Some dancers are hypersensitive or allergic to highly scented products such as perfume, aftershave, etc,. and others react to odors such as spices, onions, garlic or body odor.
    ? Respect our dance halls. Wear shoes with clean, soft soles. No drinks or food are allowed on the dance floor.
    ? Pay attention to the caller during a walk though. Even if you do not need to hear the walk through, allow others to learn.
    ? Please thank the band and caller. They are all volunteers and fellow campers!

    Concerts
    ? Concerts are performances by one person or a small group. There is a general concert every night after dinner that anyone can sign up for or attend. Also, there may be concerts listed in the general schedule in various event spaces. Attendance is open to everyone.
    ? Performers should arrive on time and be prepared for any setup they need to do. Please also be aware that it takes a few minutes for people to make their way to a location, so giving the audience a few minutes to arrive is a good idea.
    ? Performers should also leave time at the end of their show for announcements, and make space for the next workshop. Consider moving elsewhere if you have time-consuming business-like mailing lists or CD sales.
    ? Please hold questions and comments until the end of the performance unless invited otherwise.
    ? Unless invited to sing along, please let the performer do the performance. Be respectful of the performer?s effort and training, and of the audience?s desire to hear the performer and not you.
    ? If you arrive late, please wait on the edge of the performance space until the performer is between songs. That minimizes disruption to the audience?s enjoyment. If you have to leave early, please wait until between songs for the same reason.

    General Camp Etiquette
    ? We are counting on you to do your chores. You are asked to do a number of chores depending on your age and the amount of time you stay at camp, and these tasks are important to the smooth functioning of the camp. Please do your share!
    ? Also note that leading a workshop is not a chore. Leading a workshop is something you offer to the rest of camp, and is entirely optional. Doing chores is part of the cost of your stay at camp, and is NOT an option.
    ? Cover your cough. Especially in the dining hall. Use the chicken wing method.

    Ralph

    Ralph is the name of a hypothetical camper who also answers to the pronoun they. Ralph gets many things done around camp, from cleaning up messes to arranging chairs to organizing a call to the person who?s missing camp this year. The camp runs better with Ralph doing the things that need doing, that are within their capacity and authority to do.

    WE ARE ALL RALPH.

    So when you think to yourself, Hey, they should do this thing to make everyone?s experience of camp better, remember that Ralph answers to they, and that you?re Ralph, and see if maybe you should be the one to do that thing.

    Thank you for being considerate and welcoming of our fellow campers, and making Camp Harmony the best experience it can be for all the diverse people who attend. We hope you have a great time this year, and for many years to come!

    Yours in Harmony,
    The Camp Harmony Committee


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 01:30 PM

Because I write my own material,I take it as a compliment when others join in on the chorus. If I see people looking unsure , mouthing the words I generally give an encouraging nod. On the issue of other musos talking over a performance , I am in agreement with uncle tone, though have never downed tools and left. I have often found that sometimes the offenders do respect what you do, despite the bad manners, and if that is the ethos of the club I am inclined to go with it if at least some are trying to listen !


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 11:42 AM

I think generally the best way is to join in only when invited to


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: ollaimh
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 09:33 PM

etiqutte questions usually are what english bigots harp on to enforce their privledge and entitlements. scotts and irish singers usually want to sing freely without interuption from the critics. anglo singers have the tradition of sing along, which is just a reflection of the militarization of their society--MARCH IN STEP JUST LIKE THE ARMY, EVEN WHEN YOU SING. and thus repress any individuality or any opportuinty for questioning the established

ve have ways of maing you sing!


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 03:27 PM

I walked out of a folk singaround.

The pub serves up free food for the club in exchange for donations to their bar charity box. After an interval where we all fed our faces, it was my turn to perform. While I was singing one of the organisers started going round asking folks for money for said charity. This provoked several conversations that I found very distracting. When I opened my eyes during verse three I found the organiser's arse in my face as he bent over to collect money opposite me. It is a small room. That was enough. I left mid-song.

In an acoustic folk club you don't go round collecting money or holding conversations while folks are singing. That is disrespectful to the local artist doing her/his best. Do it during the interval. Mind you it probably wouldn't bother those organisers if somebody else did it to them. They all read the words of every song anyway. One regular reckons he knows hundreds of songs. No he doesn't. He doesn't 'know' any of them. He just performs them. He reads the words and chord-shapes.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: BrooklynJay
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 03:16 PM

There are lots of nuggets of wisdom in the previous posts.

Sometimes, though, telling the group that you're going to do a slightly different version of a song can fall on deaf ears. "Follow the singer" goes right out the window!

I remember particularly one time, about three years ago, when I did the song "Windmills" at a local singaround and announced it would be in 3/4 time. Fine, except when the chorus came around, suddenly nearly everyone (except me) slowed the tempo down to that of a funeral dirge. When it happened a second time, I couldn't take any more and stopped playing. "What's wrong with you?!" I screamed, "It's a f*****g waltz!!"

There were no further problems.


Jay


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 12:07 PM

It obviously depends (not deep ends) on the club. I get around quite a few singers clubs in North/East Yorkshire. They all have their ways. n one it is hazardous to try to sing unaccompanied as the musicians will tend to join in, and when they are trying to find the key it can be very off-putting.

In our own Vale Radio Folk and Blues Club we are often recording for the show, so joining in the verses would be severely jumped on from a great height. But the choruses? Fine. In fact most of our singers encourage it.

the FAB Club


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: mg
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 07:08 PM

I think people need to speak up and not silently ....have a shet of paper and give to new people saying this is what we prefer...if you prefer something else say so. If you do nt want someone to play or sing along, say so. And don't say we welcome everything and then cringe when they sing today while the blossoms still cling to the vine. Be honest. So f you are trying to preserve a tradition say so. Newcomers will not know unless you tell them. If you love the blue books and started he group to use them as so. People can decide from there..


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 02:42 PM

When I lived in Manchester, a group of enthusiasts used to gather in the side room of my local pub, 'Lloyd's', in Chorlton-Cum-Hardy,to listen to Irish music, including the renowned Traveller piper, Felix Doran.
I wasn't there on this particular occasion, but years later we recorded a story from Wexford Traveller, 'Pop's' Johnny Connors, who told of the time Doran was playing his heart out at the session when a drunk staggered in from the other bar, sat down at the upright piano in the corner and began to accompany him loudly (and in a different key and tempo) - somebody walked over and slammed the lid down on his hand.
We've archived the story as 'The Piano-driver's Broken Finger'.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 02:16 PM

We once had a bloke who thought that he could "improve" any singer by accompanying with his clumsy guitar playing. His most buttock-clenching trait was to drag the singer to his own preferred pitch with his "persuasive'" strumming. It got even worse when he resorted to his D/G box...

Don't worry if you're coming to Cornwall. He's, er, "no longer active!"


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 13 Mar 16 - 02:02 PM

The primary thing is, FOLLOW THE SINGER. Especially important if someone is singing a different version from the one usually sung at a particular session.

The Friday Press Room session (which Curmudgeon -- Tom Hall -- started over 33 years ago) has been both vocal and instrumental right from its inception. I have always tried to sing songs that either have a good chorus to join in on or a good instrumental back up and break to keep the tunifiers happy. Where I have the most problem (both when I was just a regular and now that I'm leading the session) is when instrumentalists attempt to accompany an a capella song. That can REALLY throw a singer off as English (in particular) a capella songs can't really be forced into a time measure straight jacket.

I've been known to throw things at the offender. (When I'm the singer. If I'm not the singer, I try to get the offender's attention somehow -- yeah, usually by throwing something.)

I DO have the gavel in the car, but I seldom have it at the table when I need it. Sigh. Guess I COULD fix that...

Linn


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: JHW
Date: 12 Mar 16 - 04:12 PM

The second Sunday Folk(ish)Club I'm aiming for tomorrow usually has an MC announcement 'Please don't add instruments unless asked' (Some do ask)

There are some well known songs where it is not unusual for the audience to join in the last line of the verse plus the chorus or even to sing a part of the verse as though it were a chorus e.g. She's o'er the border and awa with Jock O' Hazeldene.

Singing a slightly different version of a well known song does need you to announce that. There are clubs where the audience take a delight in silent attention then joining in correctly.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 12 Mar 16 - 12:42 PM

I'll be librarian, riffling noisily through my massive folder while everyone else is singing, taking not a blind bit of notice of them.
THAT drives me bonkers, as does the self-appointed "everyone's accompanist" who tries to drag the singer into the key he prefers, and put a square "4 on the floor" beat on to a song where the singer wants to pull the timing about in his own way.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Mar 16 - 05:22 AM

Can I have free membership and a gold badge cos I've been singing for over 50 years?


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Mar 16 - 04:41 AM

Your fault for going to the toilet at the wrong time. You are Chairman, like it or lump it. Missing the vote is no excuse.

We are..

Wait for it..

It's crap really..

Choir ate



I'll stick to embezzling the funds.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Mar 16 - 04:14 AM

I could never be a member of a committee that would have me as a member.
(With apologies to Groucho).


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Mar 16 - 04:10 AM

I know what! Set up a committee and we can have a 2016 definition of singaround etiquette that our grandkids can quote at each other in years to come.

Will Fly can chair it (too sensible to fall for wind ups)
Jim can be secretary and spokesman.
I'll be treasurer. (Straight in, like.)
Bridge can be quasi legal advisor.

Then we can set up a critics club. Again, I'll be treasurer and wear my trousers up to my tits and we can set precedents by which to interpret the definition.

It'll be minutes of fun!


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: GUEST,Rachel
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 06:17 PM

I really love the rich, ringing harmonies we have at one of the folk clubs I attend and the way an end note sustains while the person singing the verse jumps in...love it. That collective singing of the chorus means I have become familiar with many songs; not by just listening but by being part of something and I'm comparatively new to the folk scene compared to others on here...and I still have a lot of new songs to learn!
Singing along to the verse? I wouldn't presume..not only does it seem presumptuous and discourteous to the singer, but it destroys the interplay of a single voice and multi-layered chorus. Doesn't have to sound like a choir..I rather like the more drunken raucous renditions at the end of a night.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 05:51 PM

Doesn't it all sound such fun? I remember Marilyn Middleton-Pollock telling us at our folk club about her experiences of audiences at some folk clubs, "C'mon, this is a folk club and you're a folk singer. Depress us!"


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: CupOfTea
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 05:38 PM

So, logically, if the repeated parts aren't a CHORUS but a REFRAIN, everyone else should refrain from singing?







Sorry, I couldn't help myself.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 05:25 PM

The very word 'chorus' means everybody join in. That's what it's there for. What other function could it possibly have?


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: mg
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 05:06 PM

That is great for Ireland and if people like that system, and see it as a system and not a virtue of some kind, have at it. I am still only talking about song circle arrangements, not concerts...and I think noisy pubs where the singer is way amplified and couldn't hear you and the people next to you couldn't hear you but perhaps read your lips...I say decide for yourselves. Would the Germans do Octoberfest that way? Maybe they do. Would the Cornish and Welsh sing that way? Maybe they do too...but in America, as in the portion of NA that they call USA, not to be confused with Greenland, Central or South America or other countries in NA, which would be Canada and Mexico and various territorial islands...we have lots of people from different heritages...German, Scandinavian, Welsh, Eastern European, African. All contributed something and they had different ways of doing things. Anything is fine as long as people agree on it. Just sit in a circle and sing solos...that is not something I would enjoy because I think I have musical ADD. I still want to hear everyone all together all the time. And often you will never see that particular constellation of singers again...why would anyone want to miss hearing them altogether? But to each her own.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 02:50 PM

Autres pays, autres moeurs: in Ireland it's considered deeply rude and attention-seeking to join in with a singer, except *in certain songs* with the chorus; it's not even considered polite to join in the chorus in many songs. Mostly the singer will call out "Sing up" after a line or two of the chorus, if she or he wishes others to join in that chorus, and then and only then will listeners join, falling silent again to allow the singer room for the verses as a solo.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 01:52 PM

Surely, Matt, if you're singing a lesser-known version of a song where most of the people there are likely to know a well-known version, you simply tell them what you're doing before you sing it.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: matt milton
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 12:21 PM

On a related note... I recently came unstuck singing the version of 'Twankydillo' that I learned from the New Penguin Book of English Folk Songs. The chorus in that book has a slightly different melody to the one everyone seems to know.

It's not radically different, but it's different enough for it to cause a bit of a car-crash: everybody in the room tried to join in, everyone got confused! I adapted and sang all the other choruses the way everyone else wanted to sing them. On the one hand, I felt people should have listened to what I was singing; on the other hand, it's a big anthemic chorus song, it's a singaround, so it's kind of anti-social not to sing it the way the Coppers did, the way everyone knows!

When I've sung that song at subsequent singarounds, I've given up on the New Penguin chorus and stuck to the Copper Family chorus.


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: matt milton
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 12:10 PM

I do sing along with some verses but I'm aware that I probably shouldn't be so I tend to sing them quietly. I can imagine it might be off-putting. Plus it sort of feels like showing-off!


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Subject: RE: singaround etiquette
From: Acorn4
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 11:34 AM

Agree with the post two above.

The key is to listen. A lot of people don't actually listen to what the singer is doing when they join in.


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