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UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Mar 19 - 07:39 AM The Albert Chevalier song was about a couple who were being separated after a lifetime together, because poverty was forcing them into the workhouse. Perhaps they would from now on only be allowed to visit each other under supervision for maybe an hour a week. Albert Chevalier used to perform it in front of a painted backdrop of the workhouse. I'm not sure why you think its not worth a slot in the pantheon of folk music, but to me it speaks more eloquently about the England my family grew up in than any of the stuff you've cited as shining examples. The workhouses under thin disguise were in operation right into the 1950's. When I was a small child, I was taken to see my Grandma's sister who lived in one one of these places. As for my hatred of traditional song. That is so offensive. I have run folk clubs for much of my life booking many singers specialising in traditional song. This truculence of character isn't a testimony to vitality. Its craziness. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Mar 19 - 07:44 AM You make the accusation Vic, your job to do the work to prove it - that's the way justice works You mentioned Brian Creer, I think - Brian has not posted to this thread and I haven't crossed swords for him for several years I have gone out of my way to be as polite as possible on these threads - all the personal abuse has come from elsewhere - you have remained as silent on the as you have on Al's attack on the folk song we have both been involved in for decades I have not been intolerant - I have responded to each point firmly but politely - if I have not changed my mind, neither has anybody else Where have I expressed intolerance - or do I have to go to Joe offer to find that out as well If you really missed '"sepia rural" you can search it out on this thread THe "£unsuitable ballads came from Jim Bainbridge who complained of arranging a tour for a singer of folk songs who had the temerity to sung 'unsuitable long ballads' Hope it wasd't Jeannie Robertson or Sheila Stewart "I don't mean just the grammatical error; " Tsk-tsk - sorry - will try to do better next time Tried to avoid typos, but I'm sure you'll find a fewl lapses in grammar if you try hard enough And I'm the intolerant one !!! I think we're finished here Vic - I've become vvery tired of your one sided condemnatory behaviour In case you missed it - a guest has just written of the replacement folk songs as futting the folk scene in "a more positive light - something else for you all to ignore Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Mar 19 - 08:19 AM "I'm not sure why you think its not worth a slot in the pantheon of folk music" Having made you position clear on folk song and old people, I'm not sire why you care Al We havn't discussed music hall songs here - what I have been arguing against is the pop and pop sounding songs Music hall songs have always been dismissed as not being folk songs because they are not - nothing to do with me I am perfectly aware of what workhouses are - I have predecessors who were in them I find many music hall songs mawkinsh, patronising and over-sentimantal - the opposite of folk song, as I have experienced it As far as my truculence is concerned - I have put may case strongly and politely - you continue to abuse as have others here Dismissing folk songs as "sepia rural" is as offensive as it gets - that is exactly what they are not - I have posted my analysis of them - respond to that if you want to Unfortunately calling yourself a folk club is pretty meaningless nowadays, as has been proven adequately here As I have said often, thousands of us walked away from them when we stopped hearing them sung there Jim |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Mar 19 - 08:44 AM 'thousands of us walked away from them' because they were deprived of your vision of folksong. Face facts members of the general public wouldn't sit through one of your songs. The folk clubs would still be available to you, they're the only place where you would get a listen. If you think my behaviour is as offensive as it gets. Take a straw poll - ask the folk music community of mudcat who is far and away the most uncaring of peoples feelings, routinely saying hurtful and negative comments. What can't you understand about this:- We disagree about the nature of folksong. It doesn't mean that my view is right and yours is wrong. We just disagree. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Mar 19 - 08:46 AM Finished here Al No interest in talking to someone who expressed his dislike of folk song as you have Pointless Jim |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Vic Smith Date: 22 Mar 19 - 08:57 AM You make the accusation Vic, your job to do the work to prove it - that's the way justice works I have no intention of perpetrating your insults here or giving the names of the victim. They have already be removed by the moderators and I do not wish to give them the need to do this twice. Can we now assume that you do not remember who, why or how you insulted? Think back; the post in question was on February 27th - not such a long time ago. You mentioned Brian Creer, I think - Brian has not posted to this thread This in response to my "I also remember insults in previous threads against myself and against Bryan Creer (both also removed by the moderators)." Once again could I ask you to read posts before responding. Oh! and please note the spelling of his name. He once (rightly) took me to task for misspelling it on Mudcat. I have gone out of my way to be as polite as possible on these threads - all the personal abuse has come from elsewhere Sorry, but this is simply not the case and poor memory is no excuse. you have remained as silent on the as you have on Al's attack on the folk song we have both been involved in for decades. Would this be the same Al who has just posted As for my hatred of traditional song. That is so offensive. I have run folk clubs for much of my life booking many singers specialising in traditional song? You seem to want to oppose even the people who have promoted the singers of the songs that you and I love. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Mar 19 - 09:24 AM "I have no intention of perpetrating your insults here or giving the names of the victim." Then please take your unqualified accusations elsewhere Vic Digging up ancient history is pointless - we have all behaved badly on occasion - as I said, I haven't mentioned Bryan for several years More mis-spelling - desperate as that More unsubstantiated accusations Yess - that would be the same Al who wrote of folk songsI love as "rural sepia" I find this behaviour as insulting as it gets - if you wwant to make a point bring your evidence otherwise there's little more to be said, I think Jim |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: GUEST,Brimbacombe Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:13 AM "Digging up ancient history is pointless" Does this include traditional folk songs? I'm getting a bit confused to be honest. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:27 AM "Does this include traditional folk songs? I'm getting a bit confused to be honest." Don't be - folk songs and traditional ballads are no more "ancient history than are Homer, Shakespeare and Dickens THere are enough of them available not to have to "dig them up" TRY HERE Jim |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:29 AM Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 22 Mar 19 - 07:06 AM "UK folk scene in a much more positive light, Jim. " There you go again Bet this one is met with acquiescent silence too Keep 'em comin' Jim I have not the slightest inkling of what this is supposed to mean or how to respond. Sorry, Jim, but if you are not clear in what you say, as often happens, how do you expect people to respond? Dave the |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:14 PM Wasn't addressed to you Dave Jim |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:20 PM But it was me That said it, Jim. I was cookieless at the time but made it clear it was me. Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: GUEST,DtG sans biscuit - PM Date: 22 Mar 19 - 06:35 AM I'd say it's much more likely to be because everyone but you sees the UK folk scene in a much more positive light, Jim. How could it not be addressed to me and, even if it wasn't, I can still not make head nor tale of it. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:30 PM Sorry Didn't recognise the posting name - thought it was a stranger Perhaps you might explain what you meant by "more positive light" implying that my appeal for having folk clubs were you could hear folk songs wa a 'negative one' Jim |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Vic Smith Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:32 PM Thanks for that, Dave. I thought that I was seriously misunderstanding what was going on. I think that it was someone being guilty of misreading posts again which add to the confusion - but it can't be that, I thought, because I posted a reminder about reading posts carefully before replying four hours ago. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Steve Gardham Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:47 PM 'More positive light', Clear as a bell in my book so NOTHING IMPLIED. WE are all to a man far more positive about UK folk clubs than you are. Add to that festivals, sessions, singarounds, concerts, workshops, seminars, TSF meetings etc., etc. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:08 PM Absolutely, Steve. I thought it was clear. Jim, in response to your statement "We protest about only the things we care about, it seems" I replied "I'd say it's much more likely to be because everyone but you sees the UK folk scene in a much more positive light, Jim." I can still make no sense of your response. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:14 PM But if the clubs only number 186 (whether that is accurate or not - You put it up as healthy( how van a scene once numbered in the thousands be claimed as "healthy) If people who know what folks songs are (no problem there) walked away in their thosands and if what you put up as 'folk' is what people are likely to find, it doesn't matter how 'positive people claim it to be, as far as folk songs is concerned it's a dead duck I believe you are fully aware how far away from folk song has moved - hence your refusal to respond to my analysis - so until you do, any attempts to continue this spiral can only destroy what remains of our respect for each other I've done my best - your turn now Jim |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Steve Gardham Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:22 PM AS for those non-existent English youngsters, try looking up Cohen Braithwaite-Kilcoyne, a superb youngster singing all traditional material, and learning very fast, in fact he's providing the music notation in our current book in the Marrow Bones series, all traditional songs. But he's just one of the best of many more, some professionals, some happy to contribute to the local folk scene, just like we were in the 60s. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jack Campin Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:28 PM Many years ago, I got into a protracted and rather heated argument with Bryan Creer on a forum for the ABC notation. But no personal insults or denigrations were exchanged and the upshot was that I've made an effort to attend any session he's at in Whitby and would very much like to visit the places he plays at in his home turf in Sussex (this might happen with some effort and luck). He's a fine player and his tunebooks are great. But given Jim's sheer nastiness on this forum, I'm not sure Ireland is wide enough to steer clear of any event he might be part of. There have been other people who've single-handedly put me off the events they patronize, but Jim takes the biscuit. Traditoonal music does not need defenders like that. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:36 PM "But given Jim's sheer nastiness on this forum" Perhaps you might point some of this out Jack - nobody has so far Jim |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Will Fly Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:42 PM Bryan - alias "The Snail" on this forum - is indeed an excellent concertina player. He and his colleague from the Lewes Saturday Club, Valmai Goodyear, have done a mighty job of keeping traditional music alive in Sussex, with a packed programme of performers and workshops at their club. The club's seven "Lewes Favourites" tunebooks, plus supplements are a superb compilation of traditional tunes and a testament to the dedication and hard work of these local organisers and performers. And, while I'm on the subject, how could I forget the years of the running of the Royal Oak club in Lewes by Vic and Tina Smith. Another great club - alas no longer with us, but not because of lack of interest, but because Vic and Tina are enjoying a well-earned retirement from running it. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:43 PM A reminder what seer nastiness looks like"COME ON JACK - HE'S AN OLD GUY GOING ON THE WAY OLD GUYS DO ON A VERY MINORITY WEBSITE." I don't think you missed it - it was addresed to you and it didn't elicit a comment then Jim |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:06 PM No it wasn't addressed to anyone who wasn't conducting themselves like the Old Man of the Mountains. Your belief that it was your right to trample over people's feelings occasioned the comment. It is a minority website. One cannot help thinking that every time you get into splenetic fury mode, it gets more minority than necessary. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: GUEST,Nemesis Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:15 PM Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:36 PM "But given Jim's sheer nastiness on this forum" Perhaps you might point some of this out Jack - nobody has so far Jim Either 1 you memory is very short 2 You are lying and trolling becauses u have nothing else to do 3 you do not realise when you are being nasty Take your pick |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Steve Gardham Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:20 PM To be honest, Nem, I genuinely think it's number 3. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:45 PM Take your pick No guest - You produce sone examples to back up your accusations - noobody has so far While you're at it, you might look out something that equals this piece of personal nastiness BECAUSE THE WAY HE COMES ACROSS MAKES PEOPLE WHO LOVE TRADITIONAL MUSIC LOOK LIKE HATE-CRAZED BIGOTS. AND HARDLY ANY OF US ARE LIKE THAT. HE'S CONDUCTING BLACK PROPAGANDA AGAINST THE WHOLE TRAD SCENE AND REPELLING PEOPLE WHO MIGHT OTHERWISE BE DRAWN TO IT. WE CAN'T TOLERATE THAT BEHAVIOUR. Isn't it always the case that the nastiest of people are always the first in line to complain anout being insulted ? I have insulted no-one here, but plenty have made personal attacks on me ober three threads There - your starter for ten - back up your claims The nearedst I have ever come to it is when used the term "balls" instead of courage - but I amended that when it was pointed out Your turn now fellers Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Vic Smith Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:50 PM A big thank you to Mike for his comments about the way our club was run in Lewes. By the end of 2014, I (Tina a couple of years less) had been running a weekly folk club with a very few short breaks for 50 years. We had done our share! We could have gone on, but frankly, it was no longer our turn. We gave a year's notice to local activists that we wanted to call it a day and we did have two groups of people approach us to take over but when we listed everything we did and explained the hours that it took each week to make sure that we had a good or a full house every week, they both found the hours daunting. One of the reasons was that Steve Gardham's list above of festivals, sessions, singarounds, concerts, workshops, seminars, TSF meetings etc., etc. were actually starting to show more vitality, more entertainment and better musicianship than many folk clubs - including the regular session that you are involved with in Ditchling, Mike - were showing. It's all very well to obsess that there are only 186 folk clubs or whatever in the country but what if they are not where it is at any more. I can still see the top performers that I want to see in concert locally and I seem to be hearing better things elsewhere than clubs from people who were regular floor singers at our club. I still go to paying folk clubs but as an ex-organiser it pains me to sit through a sub-standard floor spot having paid £7 - 10 to get in. An 'all-inclusive' policy is admirable in some ways but when I am listening to something I consider turgid when I have paid to come in is irksome. There is also one club in Sussex that, like Jim Carroll says, seems to have turned its back on folk song. All the photos on their website show guitarists sitting hunched over their music stands. No thank you. I don't go there any more. Another reason that we left off running clubs was because of our increasing involvement on the management team of the Sussex Traditions Database and website. When the folk club closed, the several thousand pounds that we haa accumulated in the club's bank account was gifted to Sussex Traditions. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Howard Jones Date: 22 Mar 19 - 03:44 PM Jim, you keep calling for evidence but you ignore it when we give it to you. No one is denying that the number of folk clubs has fallen, although I seriously question the figure of 186 which has appeared with nothing to substantiate it. A look at the number of venues putting on folk in my own area Pyramid Folk or the London area London folk clubs suggests to me that this considerably underestimates the number. Some of those listed are tune sessions (which are usually strongly traditional), some are concert venues which put on folk as part of a wider programme, but there are plenty of folk clubs in the familiar sense. Some are no doubt not putting on "folk" in the sense that you would like it to be, but that was always the case and I don't seem much here which is very different from when the clubs were in their heyday. There is also the point that clubs are no longer the be all and end all, there are other opportunities and venues to hear folk music of all kinds. You would have us believe that traditional music in particular is declining, when the evidence of my own ears is that is not the case, at least at the folk clubs, festivals and other events I attend. I have no difficulty in finding traditional songs being performed, but like Vic the standard of performance I can expect to find often keeps me away; however that is a different problem to what you are alleging. You would also have us believe that folk clubs have been infiltrated by other forms of music, without apparently acknowledging that the folk clubs, taken as a whole, have always embraced the widest meaning of folk. Worse, you claim that folk in its wider sense is damaging traditional music, without a shred of evidence to show that (a) damage is taking place and (b) this is the cause. Worst of all, you accuse those who do not accept your analysis, and who see nothing wrong with clubs presenting a full spectrum of folk, as being hostile to traditional music. Frankly, that is insulting to people who in their own ways have been deeply involved with traditional folk all their lives. You complain about closed minds, but your own mind is closed to the possibility that other people's experience of the folk scene is more positive than yours. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:15 PM "But given Jim's sheer nastiness on this forum" Perhaps you might point some of this out Jack - nobody has so far Jim well lets see..... 1) you accuse me of hating traditional music, because I don't share your enthusiasms 2)Dave caused the downfall of the folk revival - because he ran a club not in line with your tastes. And has no balls. 3) Nasty comments about Coope Boyes and Simpson. Lester Simpson has had a long career in folk music and his BBC Derby show, Folkweave that he did with Mick Peat was one of the best outlets for traddy musicians. I didnn't get invited more than the once. Its a long thread - no doubt a folk revival researcher in a hundred years time will catalogue all the people you have decried. You have insulted many people. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Vic Smith Date: 22 Mar 19 - 05:51 PM Firstly I'd like to give the details of Al's no. 3) above -" Not really interested in the firm of solicitors" Then to add to it. - This is just a random selection of his unpleasant comments, you understand - and we will pass over deletions of his posts by moderators:- 4) Aimed at all contributors - "Please try to behave like adults". 5) EFDSS - "has walked away from the real thing." 6) Me - "It's about time the folk scene embraced adulthood." 7) Steve Gardham "Is there any need fro this nastiness" 8) EFDSS again - "Christ only knows what motivates the present lot - it most certainly ain't folk song" 9) Recent Folk Song researchers - "The behaviour of the New Age Researchers seems to have signed the demolition order" 10) Steve Gardham again "How arrogant can you get" 11) The folk scene generally -"No wonder folk song is in the state it is in The UK" (This was an unsupported comment) 12) Researchers again - "the research side, we have ivory tower researchers who respond to criticism with patronising and insulting and seem to have dedicated themselves to tearing down all past work to make room for their own " 13) R, Badgett - "Please don't be silly" 14) The Watersons - "You could march to what they did but that's about all - totally devoid of interpretation." 15) Me again "Vic whatever I said I said, it's no excuse for your behavior here" 16) Jim Bainbridge - "What world do yuo occupy Jim" 17) Dick Miles - "Stop trying to score points if you haven't done the backup work - it always ends in tears" 18) General - "Carry on knocking lads" |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Steve Gardham Date: 22 Mar 19 - 05:52 PM Jim, a lot of people here and even more not party to Mudcat, put a great slice of their lives into researching, performing and organising what you accept as folk music. From your remote position in exile you come on here and grossly insult our work on a regular basis. That is the biggest insult of all and we will not stand for it! |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Mar 19 - 06:39 PM I think , people may disagree, that one of the best things I've done in my folk clubs, is nurture and help people to become singers. Just telling people that what like is rubbish (which when you've been playing getting on 60 years most things sound like!) is not nice, its not encouraging. If you help people to make a start - you have to allow them their head. What they do with their talent is not really your call. I think the first step is to transform people from being passive consumers of music. I think then maybe its the job of people , other than me to get people interested in their particular kind of music to interest new recruits and convince them of the particular strengths. I admit I've been a jobbing musician most of my life. Its a trade, I've loved. I don't pretend I have the insight to appreciate the artists that Jim likes. I know they'd get a fair listen in any club I ran. And who knows perhaps they can present their music in a way that is accessible. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: r.padgett Date: 23 Mar 19 - 03:18 AM "Folk ~ are people ~ people who make and craft songs & poems" Meaningless Ray" I said this and mean it ~ I am sorry you are unable to to see this ~ what is it that offends you ~ as you have offended me, please? Ray |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 23 Mar 19 - 03:23 AM looking for a home..... why not store on soundcloud, like everyone else |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Mar 19 - 03:57 AM While were talking about insulting This is how Jack described how my criticism would be received if I made it publicly - which I wouldn't anyway All you will do is come across as a grumpy old fool who can't appreciate something obviously gorgeous and whose opinion is utterly worthless. I could take that personally, if I wished - this sort of thing has become par for the course during these discussions Some of us have duck's because we need them There have been numerous references to my age and possibility of senility during the course of these conversations I will be 78 later this year - I still have my faculties (I'm getting more than a little deaf, I tend to go to bed to sleep, and I can't run as fast as I once did), but it appears I am capable of reducing a forum of adults to having to resort to personal insulting rather than deal with my arguments head on I put up a quote by Martin Carthy which sums up my own opinions perfectly about folk song - the silence that it received is still ringing in my failing ears It appears that my opinion is not alone in being dismissed without discussion on this forum Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 23 Mar 19 - 06:31 AM far from denigrating folksongs, I believe the folk ballads (and I admit to not knowing all that much) are of great substance - like Shakespeare's sonnets. However, I think you are unfair putting the onus on the folk clubs, which are a public facility for people to use as they wish. Its a bit like storming into the newspaper room in library and shouting , 'why aren't all you people reading Dickens!' Some of the reason stuff in middle English like Chaucer, or even Anglo Saxon stuff like Beowulf enjoys a healthy profile is that - people have popularised it, translated. re-interpreted it. To proclaim the worthiness of a poem or work of art, is probably the best way to alienate and lose the interest of your class - as any teacher will tell you. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Mar 19 - 06:41 AM Whatever happened to rural sepia Al ? You said it - take responsibility for it - or was someone posting in your name ? Folk clubs are there to present folk songs - if they are not, they need to call themselves something else I would relish waling into a folk club and shouting "Where have all the folksongs gone" - lead me to it The best way to promote a song (as Martin Carthy said, is to sing it To take over a folk song club and use it to promote pop-like songs is an act of cultural vandalism Jim |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 23 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM folk clubs, which are a public facility for people to use as they wish. WRONG. Are Jazz clubs a public facility for people to use as they wish? Or are they gatherings organised by people with a common interest for the pursuit of that common interest? |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 23 Mar 19 - 07:17 AM well yes...actually i think you'll find that jazz clubs are pretty much followers of public taste - rather than arbiters of it. many young jazz players find themselves playing new orleans or slightly later 1930's jazz. that's what the public wants - what there is of it , that wants jazz at all. I know that amy Roberts, young jazz musician of the year performs mainstream stuff. years ago Heanor Conservative Club hosted the town's jazz club. The Secretary proudly told me - I said Humphrey Lyttleton, just play play trad Humph! None of that bebop rubbish tonight! And he did! |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jack Campin Date: 23 Mar 19 - 07:37 AM I think I have already made this point at least twice in this thread and others have said similar things: if you are trying to get someone else to take an interest in the music you like, you have to start by respecting them personally and by respecting their tastes. And even better by attempting to understand what they appreciate. If you know what they get out of what they're listening to, you may be able to show them how what you listen to might be rewarding. And you might find something new to appreciate yourself. Dismissing somebody else's listening as "pap" is disrespectful and totally counterproductive. People who come across that way are asking to be dismissed as grumpy old fools, and the best they can hope for is to be ignored. At worst they will send out a message that what they're recommending is grumpy old fools' music. Is that what you want to achieve? |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Vic Smith Date: 23 Mar 19 - 08:15 AM I would like, if possible, to move this thread away from the narrow unproductive focus on the unpleasantness of the way one of its contributors conducts himself and bring it back to something that might be of broader interest. The recently issued Spring edition of English Dance & Song, the quarterly magazine circulated to members of the EFDSS, brings us the results of a survey conducted jointly by the EFDSS and Folk 21. The opening paragraph describes its ambit:- In November 2018, EFDSS undertook a survey of young performers under the age of 30, prompted by concerns from the Folk 21 folk club network that younger musicians are less interested in folk clubs. Those surveyed included artists, students, youth groups and many more; 120 people, from every region, replied. This is what they had to say: I will only give the main outline findings here :- 82% of them are interested in performing in folk clubs or do perform in folk clubs. 60% of them attend folk clubs as an audience member. 53% of them would be interested in running or programming a folk club. Very encouraging! There's a lot more important stuff in the survey results as well as all members of the EFDSS will be able to see in the magazine. In my opinion, if you are not a member of EFDSS and cannot effect change from the inside then your criticism of the organisation loses its validity and certainly its effectiveness. Katy Spicer, the chief executive and artistic director has brought great changes to the organisation in her decade in charge. Not everyone, inculding myself, agrees with everything that she has done but her efforts have been transformative. She is a life-long Arts professional with decades of experience outside folk music. The national profile is now much higher and the funding is huge compared with what it once was and in my most recent visits to C. Sharp House, I have been encouraged by the number of lively young people buzzing about the place. Katy brings a note of caution in her regular column in the magazine and it reflects her wide experience. She starts off telling us how much she enjoyed the huge Celtic Connections Festival in Glasgow during January at the beginning of the year but says comments that she sees "20- and 30-something year old musicians performing to older generations and rarely to their peers" before continuing:- So why does this mismatch continue? Why are young people keen to play but not to watch? Before we get too exercised about an inability of the the folk sector to develop younger audiences, we must put this into the context of audiences and participants for other art forms. With the obvious exception of pop music (I use the term widely), audiences for dance, music, theatre and visual arts are, and have been for several decades, if not longer, predominantly over 50 years of age. Speaking as someone of that age bracket (I know, hard to believe!), that isn't necessarily a big issue. And as marketeers have been worrying about this older audience for at least 30 years, one could ask 'what is the problem'? There is clearly a natural cycle that sees teenagers engage with the arts through school or parents, continuing their engagement until work and/or families take up too much time and income, and then returning when children fly the nest and they become more time-rich. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Vic Smith Date: 23 Mar 19 - 08:22 AM (continuing the above post) I think this show us that the concerns about the future of folk clubs needs to be places in a wider perspective that the one that we have taken so far in this post. In the latest rounds of local authority budget cuts, my local authority East Sussex County Council announces that it was planning to cut all musical instrument teaching to schools. The outrage and anger was huge and well-supported by the folk music community - but it was reinstated only at the cost of other services that people regard as vital and leaves the worry of what will happen next year. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jack Campin Date: 23 Mar 19 - 08:46 AM Re Spicer's comment on Celtic Connections: the reason few young people go is the same as why I don't go - it's way too expensive. They use expensive venues and put on expensive acts. Probably more extreme than any folk club in the UK and no example to follow if you're trying to build up a younger audience with less accumulated wealth. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Mar 19 - 09:28 AM As usual, please restrict yourselves to the topic at hand, and refrain from personal quibbling. In other words, don't be tedious. Thank you. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Vic Smith Date: 23 Mar 19 - 10:07 AM Thank you, Joe, for your timely intervention. I was about respond to an unkind and insulting post about me but instead I decided to try and bring the focus back to something that might bring minds back to the matter in hand with my posts about Katy Spicer and the English Dance & Song. I am really glad that I stayed my hand because the moderators have seen fit to remove the offensive post. Finally, on this matter, may it be allowed to remain that two posts by Jim Carroll have been removed today and that I have details of their content. This because I fear their content (or existence) may be disputed in future. With that I give a loud sigh of relief and hope that this thread had now been rescued and that something like a civilised exchange of views can be resumed. I'd like to start this by supporting Jack Campin's statements about admission prices at Celtic Connections. He is right to say that they are way beyond the means of younger people. Pensioners as well, I might add. The same, at a lower financial level, goes for folk clubs. A couple living on a pension is not always going to be able to afford 2 x £10 admission plus 4 x £4 drinks from their pensions which as we all know are not keeping pace with inflation. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Mar 19 - 10:15 AM "With that I give a loud sigh of relief and hope that this thread had now been rescued and that something like a civilised exchange of views can be resumed. " Amen to that Jim |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Vic Smith Date: 23 Mar 19 - 12:55 PM Since I have been using the text scanner already today, let me use it again to scan another editor's article, this time from the from Ian Anderson the editor of fRoots and part of his piece in the Spring 2019 edition refers to an aspect of what we are calling here UK 60s Folk Club Boom He refers to the fact that quite a number of us who were totally involved in those years are now..... (how can I put this without being accused of ageism?)... getting on in years.... (Is that acceptable?) .... should be being recorded (or recording ourselves) as part of a sort of folk music oral history project. He writes:- We're also at a crucial point in the history of the folk community. It's now 50-heading-towards-60 years since the fabled 1960s 'folk boom', when every town, many villages and most colleges had a folk club and the modern folk festival movement kicked off. But age and the reaper are starting to be unkind to the participants. I mentioned this briefly in our Summer issue last year, when we shone a tail light on the 1965 Keele Folk Festival: that it's important to pass on the experiences of that generation - if only so as to prevent people wastefully re-inventing the wheel. It is a subject that has come up in Sussex Traditions management meetings in a slightly different context. Every time I meet Steve Roud these days he says something like, "Have you started writing down or recording all the details of your encounters with traditional singers and musicians yet? You must! A lot of what you can tell is vital evidence." So far I haven't. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Steve Gardham Date: 23 Mar 19 - 02:37 PM Well done, Vic! Jim himself has a lot of very useful information of this sort, particularly concerning Walter Pardon. In my own area a number of us have set up the Hull Folk Archive and it is deposited in our state of the art History Centre. It comprises all of the hard copy records/ photos etc of Folk Union One, Green Ginger Morris and much more. The recordings are being digitised currently. All of the guests at the club are listed (early 60s onward) and the local Folk magazine for the region 'Folk News' is there with every issue, all indexed. My own recordings from tradition will be deposited once I have shuffled off, but they're all online in the BLSA anyway. Once all the digitisation is complete we have enough cash left in the pot to set up a website. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 23 Mar 19 - 04:14 PM rural sepia...yeh! le mot juste! Its not that I don't feel sorry for past generations being flogged, forced marriages, transported, hanged in chains, etc. i just feel more empathy with the people I live among. people for the most part with tough unfulfilled lives. The folk club offers an exit from society where everyone has expectations to Who was it said....lives of quiet desperation.live up to. The folk club for me as a young man, was an escape into anarchy, self-expression -and others seeking refuge from ghastly values of the beeb. AS I grew up it was my privilege to show others the escape route. I had three ( My Mum said) great uncles who died in 1914-18 conflict. But my Mum was born in 1919. I didn't any of these blokes, and if I knew the relatives who grieved for them, they never mentioned their tragedies. So I don't write songs about my depth of feeling for people I never knew. Even though since the success of Eric bogle -its been regarded as a favourite 'folk' subject. Sepia tint and all. And if that's all it is to you, and the people who come to folk clubs hoping for something the TV won't supply, mean nothing. Folk music is as good as dead. Folk music is about living sentient people. Not just old songs. And if it hasn't. It has no relevance and will deserve its death. But you and I know - that will not happen. These old songs contain magic. Some of the people who turn up wanting to sing Ed Sheeran ( and anyone else that's had a hit since Leapy Lee - when I last looked) will find their way to the real stuff. |
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Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom? From: Vic Smith Date: 23 Mar 19 - 06:55 PM These old songs contain magic They certainly do and I love them and cannot really live without them. At the same time some of the modern songwriters ring the bell for me so clearly that sometimes I feel that they are speaking directly to me. There is a lot of disagreement about who first said There are two Kinds of Fools: One says "This Is Old, Therefore It Is Good." The other says, "This Is New, Therefore It Is Better." J-J Rousseau? William Ralph Inge? John Brunner? Bishop of Ripon? It doesn't really matter who said it. All that matters is that we don't end up looking foolish and we let both live side by side. |
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