Labour - the party of Remain

Subject: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:36 AM

breathtaking....still its going to please some

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:36 AM

sorry should be in BS

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:46 AM

I will await it's repositioning before commenting.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:00 AM

Labour - the party of trying to get the tories out of power,
even if difficult political decisions and compromises must be reluctantly made along the way
in order to prioritise achieving that primary objective...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:15 AM

to be continued in a BS/General Discussion Thread...

In the meantime, anyone else dealing with an infestation of flying ants inside their home..
Those annoying little buggers have got no respect for any of us,
leavers or remainers..
It's difficult working out what exactly are the politics of an ant colony..
Are they predominantly leftwing or rightwing - they've got both...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 11:11 AM

My lad had an infestation in his bathroom a couple of weeks back. Ants that is. Not politicians.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 11:33 AM

Yeah.. it's our bathroom too.
Weird thing is this year "flying ant day" for us has been going on for over a week so far.
Every afternoon they start crawling out from somewhere behind the bath...

Which means I can pick them up and build a raft of floating ants in the bog to use for target practise...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 11:43 AM

It's horseflies here. Bad year for 'em. But we're having phenomenal weather. Sunny every day in July, bone dry so far and just 5mm rain in the last three weeks. Cutting the grass is a thing of the past. Still, this time next year we'll be a third world basket case, so I'm making the most of it.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:31 PM

Why the distraction lads? I guess Corbyn must have an arse fullof splinters by now he has spun so much on that fence. His heartlands are all off to join the brexit party shortly. Panorama is about to give him a roasting tonight. The Labour whistleblowers are accusing two of Corbyn’s closest allies of interfering in Labour’s disciplinary processes around anti-Semitism – Labour General Secretary Jennie Formby and Corbyn’s right-hand man Seumas Milne. The Leader’s Office is accused of being “angry and obstructive” over anti-Semitism amidst numerous other allegations including Formby bringing in officials who “overruled” and “downgraded” disciplinary decisions, while deleting emails and using external email addresses to try to cover her tracks, and Corbyn’s office taking in various cases for his own aides to process them directly. Labour are sticking to the line that these are false allegations from “disaffected” former members of staff. Now it’s Momentum founder Jon Lansman who’s been wheeled out to make an extraordinary allegation against the whistleblowers, suggesting that they deliberately sabotaged Labour’s attempts to tackle anti-Semitism in order to make Corbyn look bad. Looks pretty defamatory if he doesn’t have any proof:
Fresh from threatening their whistleblowers over the weekend with heavy-handed legal letters from the attack dogs at Carter Ruck, Labour have responded in a similarly measured fashion to their three peers who resigned in protest at Labour’s “institutional anti-Semitism”. Labour have opted to go strongly on the attack, saying “we completely reject these false and offensive claims”.
Some suspect that going aggressively after two Jewish peers who’ve just resigned from the party over it no longer being “a safe political environment for Jewish people or other opponents of anti-Semitism” is probably not going to down as well as Labour think it is.
Looks a real dog and pony show I wonder what labour intend to spin tomorrow to draw some of the heat?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:54 PM

Well on the surface at least - it looks like game set and match to the remainers.


Let's hope what happens next is to their entire satisfaction.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:00 PM

Well, if it results in us remaining, it will be entirely to my satisfaction.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:17 PM

There are too many fanatical political and religious factions who are desperate prevent a labour govt
by any dirty tricks they can...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 04:39 PM

'There are too many fanatical political and religious factions who are desperate prevent a labour govt
by any dirty tricks they can...'

which does savour of getting in the excuses early. what about all the huge swathes of population who have seen the light - now that they are fully informed, rather than being cruelly misled?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 05:20 PM

Well the biggest dirty trick of all time has just been perpetrated by the BBC in tonight's Panorama. An anti-Corbynista third-rate reporter "interviews" (aka does his nodding-dog act) in front of a litany of disaffected ex-Blairites. Not a single one was asked to substantiate a single accusation or give any details of their supposed abuse. Not ONE. And we were treated at the end to tear-jerking accounts of "breakdowns," "didn't know what to do with myself" and threatened suicide attempts. Not one question asked of any of these accusers. Not a single challenge. And we had repeated dark footage of sinister-looking Labour HQs and deliberately grainy and greyed-out footage of Corbyn. It was the Sun Page Three but without the tits. Yeah, knob-ends a-plenty but without the tits. A disgrace, and the lowest of low ebbs of the Beeb. What a shocker.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 06:10 PM

yes and it was done on a day ending with a 'y', a typical shabby nazi trick perpetrated by the traditional enemies of upright decent Jeremy, who always plays a straight bat...

infamy! infamy!


Just to re-cap for those of you with a slim purchase on reality.

Jeremy Corbyn has abadoned representing the millions of people who voted leave, The majority of these live in northern English constituencies where English manufacturing was based. In a way this is a re-allignment of the Labour Party - an admission that Thatcher and her monetarist policies were in essence correct - and (as BWM) and others on mudcat have intimated English manufacturing was not worth preserving. If England can afford to go on paying itself and anyone else who fancies living here - for producing nothing very much - real estate and finiancial services, you will now have the opportunity to prove.

Simultaneously with this Blairite members of the party and MP's ( the last Labour MP's to win an election) are being edged out of the party.

This is the biggest and most decisive move, I can recall in this political party's history.

I think maybe those who have promoted and argued for this should take ownership, and stop casting themselves as victims.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 07:01 PM

So we now have one party for Brexit and four against. So if there is a general election the remain vote is split four ways.

Robin

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 07:05 PM

You didn't watch it, did you, Al.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 07:32 PM

Al - as long as you'll be happier coping to live your last years under a perpetual tory,
or perhaps even Farage/Robinson, government..

Yeah, it'll be a terrific lifestyle of luxury for the Great British elderly and disabled...

whoopee.. bring it on...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 07:39 PM

watch what...the John Major thing. No I didn't see it. Find me a link that works and I will. Though how the bugger who took us into the ERM can claim to have superior insight, I just don't see why you would trust him.

If you made that dimension of mistake , costing the country that much...you'd be damn lucky to escape without a prison sentence in any other walk of life.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 07:42 PM

Al - Major, boris, Chunt, they are all tories...

But Major is now older and wiser, and possibly the lesser of those 3 evils...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 07:49 PM

"Al - as long as you'll be happier coping to live your last years under a perpetual tory,
or perhaps even Farage/Robinson, government..

Yeah, it'll be a terrific lifestyle of luxury for the Great British elderly and disabled...

whoopee.. bring it on...'

that's my point - Good old Jeremy has just discarded the traditional Labour vote, and the party mre-election machinery. Presumably to keep in with the five quid trots and the Have I Got News For You gang. Get down with the kids etc., but don't ask us to vote while GFlastpbury is on, or the college bar open.

You have just made one of those moves (like electing Michael Foot and unilateralist Neil KInnock as party leaders) that will ensure tory victory. And yes it will be the poor and disabled who pick up the bill.

whoopee indeed

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 07:49 PM

"Al - as long as you'll be happier coping to live your last years under a perpetual tory,
or perhaps even Farage/Robinson, government..

Yeah, it'll be a terrific lifestyle of luxury for the Great British elderly and disabled...

whoopee.. bring it on...'

that's my point - Good old Jeremy has just discarded the traditional Labour vote, and the party mre-election machinery. Presumably to keep in with the five quid trots and the Have I Got News For You gang. Get down with the kids etc., but don't ask us to vote while GFlastpbury is on, or the college bar open.

You have just made one of those moves (like electing Michael Foot and unilateralist Neil KInnock as party leaders) that will ensure tory victory. And yes it will be the poor and disabled who pick up the bill.

whoopee indeed

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 08:02 PM

Al - just a reminder.. I've never been a member of the labour party,
and I'm not a corbanite..

AS far as I'm concerned, he's just an older bloke keeping the seat warm for a younger more acceptable successor..

Hopefully, a leader with less historic baggage the hard right and their media channels can demonise..

But even if Christ himself came back and lead the labour party,
the tories, and even harder right, would dig up/make up dirt to discredit him..

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 08:06 PM

Oops.. I shouldn't presume christ comes back as a fella..

just in case the 2nd coming is as a lady next time..

like Dr Who...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 08:11 PM

Al - btw.. you seem to have in recent months, increasingly gone all ukip in your ideas and the way you express them...???

I'm concerned all the ex labour voting working class who'll actively vote for brexit party or ukip,
have a consideration for the potential reality under a govt lead by one of 'em,
or both in coalition...

.. and folks used to say that the liberals mean well, but would be inexperienced and clueless how to run the country..

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 12:25 AM

I'd never vote UKIP or tory or NF, or whatever the buggers are calling themselves this week.

Why concern yourself with whom they might vote for.

THe whole bloody point is that the smartarses have been abusing and insulting the point of view held earnestly and seriously by traditional Labour voters for months. THat it is a serious point of view is just beyond the imagining of the parlour leftists, here on mudcat.

THere can be few more vociferous supporters of REmain than Tony Blair - but see all the abuse heaped on 'the Blairite faction'. Basically the faction you guys have been supporting just hate the idea of Labour in office because of the responsibilities it will bring. Its more fun to dick around.

Here in the southwest - I notice that the latest consignment of police cars are Skoda. The company that dropped bombs on all those northern cities where the Leave Labour vote was concentrated. Do you really think we voted for Skoda police cars back in 1974.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 02:16 AM

”...and (as BWM) and others on mudcat have intimated English manufacturing was not worth preserving. If England can afford to go on paying itself and anyone else who fancies living here - for producing nothing very much - real estate and finiancial services, you will now have the opportunity to prove.”

Al, I’m very happy for you to disagree with my opinions, that’s what a forum like this is for, but I will not accept you telling bare-faced lies about me. I have never, at any time said that ‘English (sic) manufacturing was not worth preserving’. As someone who worked in ‘English (sic) manufacturing’ and a union-member all that time, the idea is complete anathema to me.

I have said, on a number of occasions, that the demise of UK manufacturing was the result of a combination of bad management, complacency - the idea that ‘everybody on earth wants our stuff at any price’, under-investment, poor industrial relations, and the ideology of the Thatcherite Tories who wanted to weaken the power of the unions by increasing unemployment. How you got from that to your claim that I said that ‘English (sic) manufacturing was not worth saving’ is beyond me.

So, if you wish to continue with your assertion that I’ve said that ‘English (sic) manufacturing was not worth saving’, let’s see your evidence.

Put up or shut up.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 02:34 AM

Good old Jeremy has just discarded the traditional Labour vote

As I have pointed out elsewhere, Al, Labour voters were 65% remain. How can saying that you will give them a say in what the Tory party have inflicted on them be discarding their vote?

Steve was talking about the Panorama documentary BTW. That chip on your shoulder seems to be affecting your powers of reason.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 02:46 AM

Traditional Labour voters and the working class are not the same thing. Never have been, though in recent years, certainly since the 80s, that divide has increased. Labour voters, as has been repeated over and over again, are overwhelmingly pro remain. You seem to be confusing them with Tory and UKIP voters in traditional Labour areas. Such people have always existed, they backed Mosley, they backed Powell.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 04:31 AM

Well sorry BWM - no dishonety was intended.

if ' bad management, complacency - the idea that ‘everybody on earth wants our stuff at any price’, under-investment, poor industrial relations,' was the whole story then I think it was a fair assessment on your part that it wasn't worth saving. I assumed (obviously wrongly) that this is what you thought.

I apologise unreservedly.

Perhaps I owe an apology to Corbyn as well. I assumed this was what he was thinking.

I presumed he was thinking - Northern working men, what a gang of losers. Might as well kick them to the kerb, and get on with my new mates...yippeee!! goverment grants for all bhangra lesbian morris dancers!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:26 AM

I guess Corbyn must have an arse fullof splinters by now he has spun so much on that fence.

cf Turncoats in blue?

Let's face it. Modern politicians will tell people anything they think will get them the top job. And changing ones mind start very, very close at home! Though mind is a little exaggeration, ne c'est pas?

Come back Disraeli - all is forgiven.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:32 AM

As I have pointed out elsewhere, Al, Labour voters were 65% remain.
Another sweeping statement- with no supporting link.
However the reality is that this is a meaningless figure. Let us look at it in a rational manner and rephrase the results to a meaningful statement. i.e. bums on seats!
406 constituencies voted to leave, 242 voted to remain in the EU referendum.
Around 75% of constituencies that were won by the Conservatives in the 2017 general election voted to Leave, while around 61% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave.
You may wish to play games by including the babes in arms or recently departed but the only meaningful figures are those that won the seat in the various constituencies. Using your arguments UKIP would have won many Parliamentary seats in the not so distant past.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:48 AM

Big Al, if you want to determine whether it was worth saving, ultimately it is whether the product is worth having. In many cases the product was poor and uncompetitive. You can analyse why, but by the time it had deteriorated to the extent it had, it was a bit late.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 07:11 AM

"if ' bad management, complacency - the idea that 'everybody on earth wants our stuff at any price', under-investment, poor industrial relations,' was the whole story then I think it was a fair assessment on your part that it wasn't worth saving."

What don't you understand about "I will not tolerate you telling bare-faced lies about me"?

I never, at any point suggested it 'wasn't worth saving' - that's a concept introduced by you and whilst it may be a part of your views on the demise of UK manufacturing, it's not mine.

The point I've made all along is that UK manufacturing's downfall was due to a complicated mix of factors, mostly of our own making, and that your seeking to dump the blame on the EU is a gross over-simplification of a very complex problem.

Now, stop telling lies about me, and GTFU.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 10:47 AM

For many years the only working class tory I'd ever heard of by name was Alf Garnett...

Most of my friends and family are Labour voters.. and as far as I know not one of 'em voted leave...

My old mates over in Bridgwater, an oasis of Labour activism in the tory desert of Somerset..
they are extremely proud of their continuing historic cultural and business twinning links
with Europe...

https://www.bridgwatermercury.co.uk/news/17763484.week-events-celebrate-twinning-bridgwater/

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 12:37 PM

'In many cases the product was poor and uncompetitive. You can analyse why, but by the time it had deteriorated to the extent it had, it was a bit late.'

whereas Skoda, Renault, Fiat were making real quality products . ho hum. THe difference is that the EEC has squeezed our businesses out of existence. They continue to thrive.

Your recollection of the British industrial scene are so much at variance with the facts BWM, that I assumed it was merely your biassed point of view. And I don't see much to change my opinion.

Most factories in the Notts Derby - hosiery, textile, engineering - had a well motivated workforce that did their damndest to support their managements. And their products like Charnos tights and Viyella shirts were market leaders.

Why you guys hate the English working class so much, I don't know. Obviously you think the economy of the country will be fine without them. Lets hope you're right.

It looks as though we are about to find out.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:07 PM

Skoda, Renault and Fiat for all their faults were competitive. Something that British Leyland or whatever it was called at the time never were. And I am English working class. Have worked for the last 49.5 years without a break and retired last Friday. Can you tell me where to collect my rose coloured glasses or are those reserved for "performers, songwriters and teachers of guitar". Hardly a working class CV.

Iains. I have had enough of addressing numpties for one day. I think I will do something more productive like counting clouds or pushing sand up my nose. But as a final act of care in the community I will point out that
1) The thread was started on the premise that the Labour party is letting down its voters. They are doing no such thing as the survey points out.
2) If you believe the survey is inaccurate, point us to a better indicator and
3) There is no such thing as a naughty step. Posts deemed inappropriate are deleted. But you know that don't you.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:08 PM

"Why you guys hate the English working class so much, "

Al - mate, I can't let that go unchallenged..

You are now tipping over the edge into talking inflammatory bollocks

[maybe it's the july heat and excess perspiration - baggy cotton boxers will help prevent bollock inflammations...]

I grew up on a west country council estate,
my dad was a factory shop steward until thatcher,
and the sudden closure of that factory which was the main employer for our estate..

I'm constantly arguing that the next labour leader needs to be real grass roots,
not another smarmy ex public school & oxbridge posh rich boy/girl...

Labour needs to address why traditional working class voters can no longer identify with their own historic party...
But of course they are tied up in other more pressing problems
imposed on the party leadership by external and internal enemies...


The tories/farrage/brexit/ukip are are only beneficiaries...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:25 PM

Al - you seem to see brexit as some kind of panacea.
A lot of us aren't so convinced..

If it happens I hope you are right...

But however it works out, such talk as yours,
prioritising that one issue over all others,
will do irreparable harm to the only party committed to genuinely improving life
for whatever is now defined as the 'working classes'...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:32 PM

Spot on PFR. I was born in Salford in a 2 up 2 down with no bathroom. When they pulled it down they moved us into a council house and there I stayed until I got married and was lucky enough to buy another 2 up 2 down in Salford. But this one had a bathroom. My Dad, a Polish immigrant, was a painter and decorator and at the times there was no work went labouring. My Mum was a shop girl when they married but gave it up when I was born. I have been lucky enough to do office work all my life, but it always was just paid work and I have therefore always been working class. I have never had any pretentions to be an artist or performer. Just a drone! I have no idea where Al has got the idea that we are all middle class when he is the one who has his own website to sell his services as a musician. What, with that chip on his shoulder and those rose coloured specs it is a wonder he ever gets to any gigs.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:38 PM

Iains - why do you bother...???

your sort of contributions will go down much better
preaching to the converted on far right youtube channels, etc..
But most of us just laugh you off as a ludicrous stereotype...

I acknowledge that occasionally you can talk sense,
and present uncomfortable truths
for some of the most stubborn labour supporters..

But, most of the time you're like listening to someone with chronic flatulence sat on a squeaky chair...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:44 PM

Around 75% of constituencies that were won by the Conservatives in the 2017 general election voted to Leave, while around 61% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave.

and what percentage, pray, understand statistics?

On a simplistic calculation from those figures somewhere like 68% voted "Leave". Even allowing for the stupid way of telling it, is a BIG discrepancy. But then ----------- Statistics tell you what you want to believe. Providing you cherry-pick the data.

I don't remember being taken to task for describing politics as a belief system. And as such is 100% a religion. Evidenced based of course.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 02:16 PM

”Your recollection of the British industrial scene are so much at variance with the facts BWM, that I assumed it was merely your biassed point of view.”

Ever heard the one about ‘pot’ and ‘kettle’? My recollections are the facts, they’re just not your ‘facts’ because they don’t support your illogical hatred of the EU.

”And I don't see much to change my opinion”

That’s because your view is blocked by the chip(s) on your shoulder(s).

”.Most factories in the Notts Derby - hosiery, textile, engineering - had a well motivated workforce that did their damndest to support their managements..”

Where have I said otherwise? Links please.

”Why you guys hate the English working class so much, I don't know. Obviously you think the economy of the country will be fine without them. Lets hope you're right.”

I haven’t a clue where that came from, but you really are just making stuff up. It’s quite galling that I’m accused of ‘hating the English (sic) working class’ by someone sitting comfortably in his leafy Dorset Idyll, while I’m living where I’ve always lived - in a former industrialised Midlands market town where that industry was destroyed back in the ‘70s, and which has one of the lowest per capita income-levels in the UK.

I am ‘Working Class’ - you barely know me, and you certainly don’t know me well enough to make that kind of judgment. If you did know me, and my life-history, well enough your judgment of me would be very different.

Once again - stop making stuff up - it’s extremely offensive, and it’s making you look very foolish indeed.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 02:19 PM

Pfr - three excellent posts. Respect, man! ;-)

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 04:32 AM

Seems labour is intent on tearing its self apart. "More than 30 whistleblowers including current members of staff will submit evidence to the equalities watchdog’s examination of Labour antisemitism, amid warnings that the party had failed to grasp the seriousness of the investigation.

The revelation comes after eight former members of staff went public in a BBC Panorama programme alleging consistent interference in the disputes process by senior Labour aides."

The above from the Gruniard so it must be true?
Meanwhile: A fresh video has been unearthed of Jeremy Corbyn apparently speaking at a Labour event last October. Corbyn gives his response to “some criticisms made of us in the right-wing media over the last Summer”. As in, the massive anti-Semitism and IHRA storm that raged around him all of last summer and has not gone away:

    “It doesn’t bother me. Nothing keeps me awake at night anyway, I frankly don’t care.”

Compo is in his twilight period as leader I suspect. Corbyn may not care but it is now in the hands of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC)

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 06:41 AM

A Jewish member of the house of lords - a Rabbi..

was interviewed on BBC news yesterday and said something along the kines of..

"..it does seem more than a coincidence that eight people come forward with the same complaint..??"


yes it does.. doesn't it...??

..imagine that, eight folks rehearsed and perfected on the same pre-agreed & colluded script...????

See, without evidence to the contrary, there is more than one way of interpreting the words of a group of complainants...

genuine or malicious... will we ever know the truth...!!???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 07:10 AM

By the sound of it. Labour has achieved perfection.

1) On the right side of the Brexit problem
2) No antisemitism
3) A wise and decent man as leader.

Even with those pesky right wing media types and eight right wing stinkers in a conspiracy against Labour, I reckon you must be pretty confident of a landslide victory - what with them being so right about everything.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 07:32 AM

Al - now is not a time for absolutist certainty...


Minds that are made up and closed may be comforting,
blinkers may shield the eyes,
but they don't immunise from the realities of political skulduggery...

The labour party may be in a dire condition,
but abject negativity like yours won't help heal it for us and the next generation...

Tell us, do you relish the prospect of permanent tory govt until your final days...???

Tommy Robinson will be out in less than three months and back on the campaign
to push our political 'norms' even further right...

Disaffected working class folks love him...

How do you fancy that as a new order...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 07:35 AM

From the last post, you will gather that I'm not really expecting the party I have voted for all my life to score a famous victory. However - who knows - perhaps you are right in every particular.

My Father once explained something to me. In the second world war - the two gambling games most favoured by his regiment were brag (three card and nine card a Napoloeon (sometimes called Nap - occasionally pontoon - but the brag and nap were the favourites.

Dad said to me, Alan - these are games of chance, Very little skill involved. Its just the run of the cards. Now- if you find yourself in a game where you don't win a hand all night - the chances are that you are being cheated. Two nights and its definite - just walk away from the table.

Later in life we had a member of our family who found himself unable to walk away. He was suffering from a masochistic mental illness. He involved the family in many thousands of pounds worth of debt. Although finally you will be pleased to hear - he was cured - but it lasted maybe six years. All that time - never having any money - very lucky not to lose his wife and family.

Now if that was a a mental disease - just having to be part of the only game in town

In forty years we have been sat at the table - we have lost the fishing industry, the textile industry, the car industry, the steel industry, the ship building and repair industry, the motor bike industry, the dumper truck industry, the hosiery industry and so on.

No its not a panacea. We should have been much richer if we had not sat down at the table.

And if I have a chip on my shoulder - Ithink some people have a block of wood more centrally located.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 07:48 AM

It never bodes well for a political party when it is taken over by extremists.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 08:01 AM

Err... like Boris Johnson you mean? I agree.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 08:03 AM

We should have been much richer if we had not sat down at the table.

Pure speculation Al. The only known fact is that we, as individuals and as a country, are far richer now than we were when we joined. Yes, some people lost their jobs. Some industry was lost. Many got new jobs. We got new industries. Overall we are better off now than we ever were and had it not been for unregulated banks, austerity and Tory mismanagement, it would be even better.

But let's suppose for a minute that you are right and, had we have not joined the EU, we would have been not just richer but absolutely rolling in it. Would we have had the cultural links we now have with Europe? The scientific cooperation? The combined security? I am not even going to try a guess. We have what we have. It has faults but is good. Rather than throw it away, why not fix it?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 08:21 AM

"In forty years we have been sat at the table - we have lost the fishing industry, the textile industry, the car industry, the steel industry, the ship building and repair industry, the motor bike industry, the dumper truck industry, the hosiery industry and so on."

But to what extent have those old industries and technologies also been in decline
around the rest of the world...???

Now in 2019, in a world facing imminent ecological crisis,
the writing should be on the wall for most if not all of them...

Clinging onto the ancient belief in "our nationhood" is a damaging impediment
to peoples of all the world co-operating and coordinating the continued survival of both our species and planet...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 08:48 AM

But to what extent have those old industries and technologies also been in decline
around the rest of the world...???


I bet Max could tell us how buoyant, or to put is more accurately, non-existent the steel industry of Allegheny, Pittsburgh is. And Detroit residents could tell you something too. The only thing keeping the car industry solvent is the Chelsea Tractor (or should that be Manhattan Tractor?)

We are a nation much like Texas regards itself, maybe moreso. Outside of Europe we will be ................. YEA, watch this space, but don those rose coloured specs - I have countless pairs of them you can borrow - but not the 4 prescription ones - I want to see clearly with a hint of optimism.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 08:57 AM

A statement by Momentum, endorsed by Jewish Voice For Labour.

As a public broadcaster the BBC has a duty to be impartial. Yet it has employed the former Sun journalist and Corbyn critic John Ware to direct tonight’s documentary. His greatest hits include:

The widely criticised 2015 Panorama documentary that made false claims about Jeremy Corbyn.
A documentary described by the Muslim Council of Britain as “an anti-muslim witch hunt” and in the Guardian as “McCarthyite”.
Another documentary about British muslims that the BBC had to apologise for and pay compensation.
A film about the ‘hard left’ running local schools which was criticised in the BBCs own magazine for abandoning “any attempt at a reasoned, detached, analytic or investigative programme”.
It’s clear John Ware has an anti-Labour agenda and he should not have been employed to direct a ‘fair and impartial’ documentary about Labour."

I'd also reiterate that Ware sat quietly nodding his head at each "whistleblower," failing to make a single challenge or ask for relevant details of any of the accusations. Whatever kind of journalism it was, the word "investigative" would be the least appropriate description.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 09:17 AM

”And if I have a chip on my shoulder - Ithink some people have a block of wood more centrally located.”

I won’t dignify that little gem with a response, other than to say I hope it’s made you feel better.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 09:23 AM

Is this what happens when the beeb is forced to sub-contact program making
to independent production companies...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 09:42 AM

More likely part of a campaign to bring about a one-party State.

Presumably the BBC don’t have to show any programme they’re not happy with. One can only assume they were happy with a one-sided programme in which accusations against the party of Her Majesty’s Opposition went unchallenged.

Strange thing is, it seems to be an issue almost completely confined to the Westminster Bubble - people I’ve discussed ‘Labour Anti-Semitism’ with, of all political persuasions, don’t seem to care a jot, other than as a means to unseat Corbyn. No real sympathy for the complainants, most see it as just an anti-Corbyn, anti-Labour Point-scoring opportunity.

It really is time for the LP to man-up and do whatever’s necessary to put this issue to bed. Then they can get on with their day-job of opposing and challenging the worst government I can remember since I achieved voting age - including The Beast of Grantham’s bunch.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 10:21 AM

BBC have put Fiona Bruce in charge of question time, of course they are happy with a one-sided programme.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 11:10 AM

And that’s the main reason I never watch it nowadays.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 11:18 AM

What's so confusing is why the far out far right are so entrenched in their hatred for the beeb,
which they accuse of being so PC/SJW/marxist
that it must be run by Lenin and Stalin from the grave...!!!???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 11:29 AM

'The labour party may be in a dire condition,
but abject negativity like yours won't help heal it for us and the next generation...'

well we can agree about that.
But I really don't know what the answer is...   They're chucking out and de-selecting anyone who won't toe this latest party line. I think to be honest - We just have to let Corbyn take the party to the iceberg and down to the seabed. Perhaps theres a John Smith character hidden somewhere in the wings.

As for Tommy Robinson being beloved of working classes - I think its a bit like football hooliganism. I think you might be surprised how many posh boys like that sort of rumble.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 12:05 PM

Al - I'm just an outsider with opinions on the Labour party..
..besides, my vote for 'em is always futile in Scrumpyshire...

I'd suggest the Labour broad church has become far too broad,
and needs reigning in a fair bit..

There are too many factions of single issue pressure groups cluttering up and festering inside the party.
They need pruning back, or told to shut up...

Labour needs to concentrate again on it's roots and essential reasons for being...

Folks who become members of the Labour party should be only that,
not a member of a group within a group, etc, within the party,
prioritising their obsessive single issue over the well being and success of the Labour party acheiving government...

If I joined Labour to become an activist for 'fat balding scrumpy drinker friends of Labour',
and spent all my time moaning to the press that Corbyn
is biased and hostile to my special needs group.
That the more I make myself a pain in the arse disrupting the party and creating division,
the more nasty tweets I unfairly get.
Then demand everyone in the party who don't like scrumpy should be expelled..
That don't really make for a healthy electable opposition party...

They should join to be Labour members first and foremost,
and leave their extra curricular obsessive side issues outside in the bike shed...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 12:17 PM

Absolutely spot on, pfr.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 12:18 PM

ooh.. I just remembered some words.. "unity" and "solidarity"..

There were other words a bit like that, also forgotten and lost in the mist of time....

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 12:25 PM

I'll add "self discipline" and "self restraint"...

No individual's obsessions should be imposed on the smooth running and order of Labour
as a mass collective striving for a better life for all us ordinary folks...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 01:07 PM

Well the problem with your anaysis - so sycophantically endorsed, is that one of the reasons we have a stable society in England is that both major parties are broad churchches.

General elections are decided by the winning or losing of forty three marginal constituencies.

Pruning away your support ....well its a policy that could only recommend itself to the wood burning brain cells of the middle classes.

However nothing succeeds like success. If Corbyn is successful having pruned away his support, I will be intrigued.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 01:29 PM

Al - you seem too keen to find fault and sneer at other people's ideas,
if they don't correspond to your distorted perspective of how things are and should be..

I'd have thought you'd be happier if fewer middle class academic fanatics
were holding back labour by the short and curlies...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 01:44 PM

and now Diane Abbot is calling for the resignation of Mr Watson. This would suggesr that both she and compo are in complete denial of the allegations of antisemitism. Thus would seem an exceedingly bizarre attitude in light of the fact the party is under investigation by the EHCR. £ Labour peers have resigned the whip, panorama has 30 whistleblowers and the official line of the party would seem t obe a rerun of Canute!
As an opposition party they are more suited to a circus.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 01:47 PM

Iains - thanks for another list of 'breaking news' to regard with cautious suspicion,
until more evidence comes to light...

you are an invaluable resource...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 02:13 PM

By no means. Possibly I am totally wrong - a Brexshitter with a chip on my shoulder.

I loved that bit in wolf Hall

Thomas More: Are you threatening me....?
Thomas Cromwell: My turn...don't you think?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 02:22 PM

...eh...???

If I may call you Al.. I'll call you Al...

We can leave the playground insults to to other folk's who enjoy them...
Nothing to be gained from bitter internecine disputes with other Labour voters,
current or former...

I'll reserve my fullest sarcasm for tories...
a more deserving target...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 02:33 PM

Pfr you know I only post facts,
You will find the proof on guido as video and retweeted tweets.

As a special bonus you will find that Mr Banks is going ahead and taking action against the Gruniard hack.
"Last month Arron Banks warned Carole Cadwalladr that he was initiating libel action against her over her claims that he had a “covert relationship” with and had been offered money by the Russian Government. Over 14 days have passed and Carole has failed to respond – Banks has now formally initiated proceedings in the High Court. Banks insists that there is no truth to her claims whatsoever, and he’s had enough…

Banks is suing Carole on two grounds over two separate speeches she made, Carole’s claims are expected to be giving another airing in an upcoming Netflix documentary called The Great Hack. If Netflix repeat the claim Banks will, according to Andy Wigmore, be suing them too…"

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 02:42 PM

Iains - I regard you as two entities..

the upstairs Iains who sounds like an interesting bloke,
a mine of information..

and the BS Iains who is a blatant propagandist and unintentional source of chuckles..

I'll even give you, some of your sarcasm, your intentional humour, gains a smile sometimes...

Facts/guido...??????????????????? cue audience hysterics..

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 02:56 PM

Al, you’re wasting your time - you won’t provoke me with your nasty, spiteful little schoolgirl jibes and judgmental attitude, because you know very little about me to judge me by, and anyway I don’t give a FF what you think of me. Your extremely wide-of-the-mark judgments say far more about you than they do about me.

Now, you keep rattling on about ‘the middle classes’, and you’ve accused me and others of beng ‘middle-class’ and ‘hating the working class’ - hilarious in view of my identifying as ‘working class’ having been born to parents who were engineering shop-floor workers, growing up and living the first thirty years of my life in a council house, a house which my parents lived in the whole of their married life, being a trade-union member for many years and still supporting the trade-union movement,

You have a habit of judging others based on very little knowledge of them, other than the fact that they disagree with you, and classifying them, presumably, according to a set of arbitrary ‘rules’ known only to you and completely unknown to those whom you set yourself in judgment over.

So let’s knock this jusdgmental bullshit off - let’s have your definition of ‘the middle classes’, Tell us what are the attributes you believe makes an individual ‘middle class’, and I’ll tell you whether I qualify in each case.

I’ll start you off - I don’t have, nor have I a desire for, a wood-burner.....

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 03:18 PM

When I was a kid, my mum used to take the piss out of pretentious neighbours down the road,
who boasted about their fitted carpets, and telly that could pick up BBC2...

I now have fitted carpets.. and a big color telly with gazillions of channels..

.. oh dear...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 03:27 PM

A sign of the changing times, pfr, and an indication that, despite the efforts of those nasty foreign johnnies in the EU to do us down, as a nation we’re far better off than we were back in the ‘good old days’ of the ‘50s and ‘60s.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 03:45 PM

I forgot to mention.. our aspirational lifestyle neighbours
had the house at the end of the terrace..
A semi detached council house, with a far bigger garden than all the others...

Well, at least I still live in the middle of a terrace,
with no gardens at all...

You won't find me out mowing a lawn, washing the company car,
and moaning about immigrants buying the house next door, lowering property values.........

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 03:45 PM

Of course we are BWM. I am truly gobsmacked by the claims that the "working class" have lost out over the last 50 years. Everybody is much better off. The argument that is that others have gained more than you.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 04:35 PM

'Al, you’re wasting your time - you won’t provoke me with your nasty, spiteful little schoolgirl jibes and judgmental attitude'

Says the man who drops Brexshitter into the conversation at every opportunity.

I can see that a lot of you aren't aware of are the fact, but there is a lot of profound poverty in our society. The poverty traps are deeper the distances you and your children fall are probably the worst in a hundred years, All of it due to the hard drugs industry that has taken root because jobs for the uneducated are not so plentiful.

I can see why you feel the way you do - how can someone with access a colour television be poor?

All I can say is I don't think its me who is being judgemental and failing to see why we need to face up to our problems and do something about them.

Is Boris the answer. Of course not. But sadly neither is Corbyn.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 05:09 PM

”I can see that a lot of you aren't aware of are the fact, but there is a lot of profound poverty in our society. The poverty traps are deeper the distances you and your children fall are probably the worst in a hundred years, All of it due to the hard drugs industry that has taken root because jobs for the uneducated are not so plentiful.”

I’m not going into the reasons why, I’ll just tell you - do NOT lecture me, from your cosy Dorset Idyll, about the hard drugs industry - I have more experience of it, at very close quarters, and the devastation it causes than a know-it-all, know-fuck-all like you, and this is another perfect example of your utterly misplaced judgmentalism about people you don’t even know. If you did actually know me, and what my life experiences have been, you wouldn’t make up unfounded lies about me, you wouldn’t make these outrageous, unjustified judgments, and you wouldn’t stoop so low as to use the subject of hard drugs to try to provoke me.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 05:33 PM

I have two wood burners and a half-acre garden. I am a socialist. I drink prosecco and Nero d'Avola. I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 06:18 PM

I just had a sausage sarnie, and reheated chips leftover from last night...

My Grammar school headmaster would despair how I turned out..

You can take the boy out of the council estate, but...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 07:36 PM

Aye, well we 'ad it tough...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 08:09 PM

I don'tr know much about the actual details of your life. I know you've had some experience - but that doesn't mean you have more than me.

I lived the majority of my life in the midlands. I've retired to Dorset, which strangely enough hasn't as yet become a separate part of the UK and shares many of its problems. The back streets and Park area of Weymouth ;;;

oh why the fuck should I lower myself to argue with such a closed bloody minded insulting high horse riding tripehound.

You see no connection with people not having employment with the drugs trade, Every sociologist since the first world war would disagree with you.

Go ahead vote for the dissolution of of our society. I'm allowed to disagree with you. I'm allowed to be better informed than you. I shouldn't have put up with your your abuse and non arguments. Perhaps we'd be better off eschewing contact with each other

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 09:26 PM

"You see no connection with people not having employment with the drugs trade"

errrr.. who doesn't...???

Heroin was unknown amongst our young provincial social circle before thatcher...

Up until her we were so relaxed and innocent we'd leave our guitars and amps,
and personal bags unattended everywhere.

Within a couple of years of thatcher, nothing was safe from being nicked..

Heroin made life very dark..

Even our in our small town we soon enough had friends/musicians/band members who were using...

Al - you aint got a monopoly on post thatcher misery and squalor...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 04:50 AM

And that's why I've objected so strongly to the stuff Al's thrown around here - his belief that he's the only open-minded one who recognises facts, and that everyone else, especially me, is closed-minded and living in a dream world. Whereas the overwhelming evidence is quite the reverse.

For the record, my eldest son has been a heroin-addict for over twenty years and is still on methadone. His own life has been wrecked by it, and the lives of his mother, brother, and I have been a living hell.

In addition, I worked with young people from a 'tough' estate and wider for twelve years, including a significant number of substance-abusers, sexual-abuse victims, you name it, providing distraction, counselling, and friendship in a 'safe' environment.

I believe I'm as qualified as anyone here to understand the nature and causes of drug-addiction.

"Perhaps we'd be better off eschewing contact with each other"

No 'perhaps' about it - for once, I completely agree.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 10:40 AM

Iains - I voted Labour, I voted Remain.
I am not member of the Labour Party, I do not follow their position

There is no way you can possibly accuse me of supporting leave...
There is no way you can accuse any Labour voter who also voted Remain, who is not a member of the labour Party,
of supporting Leave..

Ergo, you are talking out of your arse when you infer that every Labour voter supports leave...

WE non members vote in the vain hope of kicking the tories out,
we do not necessarily support all Labour positions and directives advised to their members...!!!

You can split hairs in your realm of abstract statistical theorising,
but in the real world you are simply wrong...

But we understand how much your ilk depend on the fantasy demon of a Stalinistic Labour Party...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 10:47 AM

.. and I daresay a significant number of Labour members will not take too kindly
to their party insisting that they support Leave when they decry the very idea of it..

Oh.. they didn't.. and they still don't.. and now apparently they won't have to for the next election...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 07:02 AM

Iains - what I hinted at before I went to bed, I will now make more explicit...

YOU are a good 30 to 40 years behind the times...
Your use by date has expired.
Educated people have been well aware of your propaganda methods
since they were closely studied by young students
way back in the early 1980s.
Since then such studies filtered down from higher education into schools.

You ae so blatant and identifiable in your motives, methodology, and objectives
that you cancel yourself out.
What's most comical is how ineffectual you are by choosing mudcat
as your soapbox.
Whatever you think you are achieving with your anti-left propaganda
is wasted here.
We are not thick enough to fall for it.

You insult our intelligence, but make up for it by being a daily source of chuckles...

If you were a Russian backed 'bot', as some here seem to believe,
you're not very good at it.
If you are, as seems just as likely, an 'influencer' mouthpiece of the internaionally organized campaign
for spreading of right wing ideology
on the internet.
Then by all means carry on wasting your efforts here...
At least you are not abusing vulnerable young minds elsewhere...
..well.. I hope you are not...???

If given a choice between keeping you or Jim [for all his faults..] it's an easy choice to make...
..and that is not just about politics.
Jim is a valuable expert on the primary subject matter of mudcat - folk music -
You are only here to spread negativity and hostility...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 07:46 AM

Jim - here's an interesting news item, fairly local to where I live...

targeted by a suspected pro-Brexit troll farm

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 08:20 AM

I realise full how the press has taken sides in all this and, as most of them are of the right persuasion, it's pretty easy ot sort out what's what
I get the Times (for Codeword) and I have never seen a once reliable source of news plummmet into an openly extremist hate=-rag the way it has.

Nie bit of 'fake news' this morning
Theresa May has accsed Donald Trump of open racism for telling the black women Democrats that they should "go back and help fix" their own "broken and crime infested countries"." - I wonder which side our resident Trumpeter will take on this one (I don't really)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 08:20 AM

I don't know if you remember, PFR, but a while back right wing trolls got hold of many people's profiles from Mudcat and elsewhere and created false Facebook profiles in a feeble attempt to fight back against the "Folk against Fascism" movement. The whole thing backfired. Nick Griffin, who instigated it, crawled back into the cesspit he came from. His attack dog, a folk musician known to some on here, got caught and I believe did some time for it. He occasionally still comes on here and uses other people's names to try and shitstir but everyone is wise to it now. It seems that right wing extremism is on the rise everywhere and its fanboys on here try to join in with the big lads but fail miserably. You have the right idea. Just point and laugh :-)

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 08:43 AM

DtG - vaguely remember all that.
It was around the same time one of the B'n'P fancied himself as a wannabe folk singer.
British folk as they saw it being the true music of nationalists.
They organized at least one 'family friendly' nationalist music festival
to try to win over hearts and minds...

When I first joined mudcat, I also tended to associate factions of folk music with the reactionary right..

But I'd hope that any still breathing have grown too old and feeble to any longer be such a real problem...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 08:45 AM

whoops.. accidently presssed enter before finishing off that scrappy 1st draft...
but it'll have to do...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 08:51 AM

Aye, that was the one. Chumbawamba did a brilliant song about when Griffin tried to dance Morris.

Dance, Idiot, Dance

Enjoy :-)

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 10:31 AM

There's an intersting online review of the new documentary movie "The Brink"...

I'd suggest watching the relevant part of this first..

[because if I remember correctly the clip is a bit diffeent and includes extra footage...???]

Then the more in depth review ...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 10:39 AM

"Over 200 current and former Labour staff and supporters write to condemn Labour’s handling of the Panorama documentary"

out of a very approximate total of over half a million... approx 0.04%...

So even if we gave the 200 benefit of the doubt about their motives,
there are far worse problems's for Labour to prioritise
in the real world outside of media outrage,
and far right cynical opportunism.....

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 10:44 AM

Lots of chumming the waters with weasel words and trumped up "facts." Stop feeding trolls and the thread may last.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 12:19 PM

Change hands...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 12:37 PM

101... or 100... or 99.. etc.. if this thread gets any more deIainsified...

well it now smells a lot fresher in here...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 12:45 PM

DtG - I was saying before the purge, that song is now nearly 10 years old...

wow.. time fly's eh...???

It only seems like yesterday I was a mere fresh faced young 50 year old, optimistically looking forward to 2010,
and a new decade of fun and frolics...

Never mind... 2020 soon..

We can have another fresh start at looking forward to the future...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 01:23 PM

Blimey. Doesn't time fly when you're enjoying yourself :-)

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 01:31 PM

As I am not a supporter of Labour it is of no interest to me if the party wants to continue to self destruct by not addressing the accusations it faces, or managing some sort of coherence on it's Brexit policy. It is patently obvious that unity is not a goal that Labour aims for. It is a self evident fact that it will cost them votes. Denying these problems does not diminish them or make them go away.
As I do not support any political party I can take a dispassionate view. Labour to my mind is doing all in its power to aid its opposition. This is not a winning tactic!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 01:49 PM

Labour has to deal with both sides of its leadership and membership otherwise it will end up as fragmented and impotent as the Tory Part which is now on the point of self-destruct
Even the Tory leadership issue is threatened by a revolt which intends to bring down whoever is elected if they don't toe the line - whichever line that is
It little behooves a Tory supporter to advise Labour on its future in those circumstances
Are you serious !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 01:57 PM

"...it is of no interest to me if the party wants to continue to self destruct..."

Who are you kidding? "Of no interest"? You're completely obsessed!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 03:11 PM

"You're completely obsessed!"
His hatred of Labour (and anything to the left of Attila the Hun challenges that of obsessive Rupert Murdoch
im Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 03:18 PM

'i do not support a political party's

Perhaps because there is not one quite right wing enough?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 03:39 PM

...it is of no interest to me if the party wants to continue to self destruct..."

...he gasped, as he approached orgasm....

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 11:27 AM

...he gasped, as he approached orgasm....

What a sad fellow, but you doappear tobe slowly losing your anal fixation. Presumably the new medication is working.

An interesting snippet:
"Labour and Lib Dem parties will only be able to enact their policy of slapping VAT on independent schools if the UK leaves the EU. Article 132 of EU Directive 2006/112/EC compels member states to exempt a number of areas from Value Added Tax being levied on them, including “the provision of children’s or young people’s education, school or university education”. Controlling your own tax policy or being a member of the EU, you can’t have both…" What a shower!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 04:19 AM

A surprising add in the Guardian today, without precedent I would think! Talk about washing dirty laundry in public!

More than sixty Labour peers have taken out an advertisement accusing Jeremy Corbyn of having “failed the test of leadership” over his handling of antisemitism complaints within the party.

The peers, including more than a dozen former ministers such as Peter Hain, Beverley Hughes and John Reid, have addressed the advert in the Guardian to Corbyn directly, saying: “The Labour party welcomes everyone* irrespective of race, creed, age, gender identity, or sexual orientation. (*except, it seems, Jews). This is your legacy, Mr Corbyn.”

Representing about a third of Labour’s members in the House of Lords, the signatories told Corbyn the party was “no longer a safe place for all members” and claimed that thousands have resigned their membership “because of the toxic culture you have allowed to divide our movement”.

The advert has been taken out amid a backlash within the party about the leadership’s response to a BBC Panorama documentary that aired last week, in which eight former staff members accused the Labour of failing to tackle complaints about antisemitism properly and allowing Corbyn’s office to get involved in disputes.

Wkth divisions on this and brexit, Labour is a spent force!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 04:49 AM

No attacks on Jews - no antiemitism
Never gets more difficult than that

"Labour is a spent force!"
In your dreams
Corbyn has more support from the rank and file membership than any other political leader
Your party can't even drum up support among its own MPs without giving a Party with terrorist connections a £1 billion bung
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 05:31 AM

support-for-jeremy-corbyn-labour-plummets-to-lowest-level-in-polling-history-2019-7

https://www.businessinsider.com/support-for-jeremy-corbyn-labour-plummets-to-lowest-level-in-polling-history-2019-7?r=US&IR=T

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 05:44 AM

An interesting view on what’s actually going on here...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 05:52 AM

Pointing to the problems of one party in the face of what's happened to Parliamentary politics is simply propagandizing nonsense
The Tories have no support within or without Westminster and they are now poised between appointing one of to clowns as Prime Minister
The governing party has now lost two Prime Ministers because of Brexit and the next one is facing threats of a vote of no confidence if he doesn't pleasee all sides in a seriously divided Perty
The campaign to dislodge Corbyn on a trumped up antisemitism charge has fallen flat as it was bound to as, rather being about the Jewish people, is in fact an attempt of the Labour Parliamentary right to rid itself of Socialist policies - the death throes of Blair's New Labour
THIS IS WHAT THE DISPUTE IN THE LABOUR PARTY IS ABOUT

Gavin Shuker is a right winger who opposes Socialist Policies, opposed gay marriage and equality for homosexuals and supports religious fundamentalism in his Bristol constituency
He represents New Lanbour's good old days of Right wing Labour and career politics
Jim Caarrol

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 07:21 AM

Do you think the Guardian lost it's moral scruples and has sold out to Mammon by taking a full page ad on Labour antisemitism?

Or could it be the Guardian finds the allegations undeniable?

Either choice unpalatable for some here.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 11:04 AM

Iains - Obviously you are very selective about what you ignore in our threads...

Wasn't it only a day or two ago I evaluated and dismissed the guardian as a paper
for smug middle class liberals...

Though to maximise sales, it also tries to appeal to the periphery of it's core liberal readership
aiming at a secondary target market of tory wets and blairites..

So.... THE GUARDIAN IS NOT A LABOUR PAPER...

repeat until this is lodged in your narrow mind...

If the guardian does ever publish an actively pro Corbyn opinion piece
it is only to attract further additional occasionl sales to lefties who can afford to buy it...

Therefore, I couldn't give a shit about what the guardian prints about Corbyn as leader of the labour party...
The editorial bias of the guardian does not particularly like Corbyn..

The only significant positive thing to say about the guardian, is at least it's not a completely blatant hard right propaganda bumrag
like the obvious usual suspects...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 11:08 AM

Unlike the sewer press, The Guardian opens its columns to all views and certainly does not censor its adverts politically
It carries regular articles by right wing Labour supporters,
Unike the accusation by Muslims against the tories, The Labour Party has acted on the accusations publicly - nothing to hide so far
Now anti Jewish attacks, no Antisemitism (though it is antisemitic to suggest that accusing critics of Israel is anti-semitic, as you have done

Wonder if your friend, Donald the Don's Party will treat the findings of te House of Representitives findings that Donald the Degenerate has made racist statements against black congresswomen as seriously
Waddya think !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 11:10 AM

Iains - Btw.. try to smarm your way out of it, but BWM summed you up good and proper..

errrmmm.. this is not an image I want for long in my head,
but you very well could be sat there typing one handed
as you fantasise about the labour party on it's hands and knees bare-arsed,
whilst you, clad head to toe in rubber and PVC, administer it a jolly good caning...

.. typical public school & tory S&M wet dreams...


PS.. Predictable complaints and backlash*
[* pun unintended, but an understandable subconcious association of ideas and words...]

about Labour's hope of making school education a fairer playing field..

Now imagine the outcry from old etonian tories if Corbyn were to propose a higher rate of tax
on birch canes, studded leather paddles, and dominatrix & gimp outfits...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 11:14 AM

From the Guardian:

The Guardian’s election editorial has come out in strong support of Labour. The editorial welcomes the enthusiasm of Jeremy Corbyn on the campaign trail so far, contrasting the Labour leader’s energy with the lacklustre performance of Theresa May.

Now you was sayin like?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 11:18 AM

Iains - don't always believe what you read in the papers...

It's not like we've never encountered two faced liberals
trying to sit on the fence keeping their selfish options open...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 11:20 AM

.. but at least liberals and labour would both prefer to see the tories out of govt...

Unless a tory govt buys them off with a nominal share of power...

..just saying like...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 11:50 AM

I do just love the way you check your facts before posting and your sheer arrogance.

I am a leftie therefore what I think is correct.
Any link that contradicts my leftie position I will have deleted.
Those that have the temerity to argue the leftist position will be bullied into submission, extensively insulted and/or banned.

and yet you wonder why below the line is toxic!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 12:15 PM

Iains - do what...!!!???

In over a decade and a half of mudcat membership I have made it very clear
I am firmly opposed to censorship and deletions...

I am also an objective rational kind of chap
who believes skepticsm and doubt gets closer to understanding the nature of 'facts'
than any amount of dogmatic absolute certainty..

So, I will now state as personal opinion rather than fact,
that you are squirming and deflecting with your usual old bollocks again..
Though I don't hide that I honestly think mine is a well considered and educated opinion...

Also, I don't need to wonder why it's toxic down here.
It's obvious why.. you are proof enough...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 12:44 PM

The advert was paid for. It was not news or editorial. It did not say Corbyn was antisemitic. Just that he was failing in his leadership, which is entirely a matter of opinion. The fact that it was written and paid for by a group of parliamentary peers who could afford a full page advert in a national paper speaks volumes about their motives. Just consider who will benefit and who will lose most in a Corbyn led Labour administration. I am pretty sure that rich career politicians are worried. Hence the barely concealed hatchet job.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 02:26 PM

Just remind me, is this thread about Labour the party of remain or not?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 02:39 PM

"I am a leftie therefore what I think is correct."
As distinct from your total contempt for anything left you mean
Whence the difference ?
"Any link that contradicts my leftie position I will have deleted."
As you do constantly, you mean ?
"and yet you wonder why below the line is toxic!"
Said the feller who has personally abused everybody who disagrees with him from the day he joined the forum
Bit late to make accusations like that I would have thought
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 03:15 PM

Hang about! Some of you good people are doing the mods a great disservice. By reacting in the same manner as the troll you are allowing him to continue in the same on obnoxious way. If YOU stop posting like that it will undermine his entire presence.

It's not that difficult to comprehend.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 11:07 AM

Next week an emergency meeting of Labour peers will be held in response to Baroness Hayter's dismissal as a shadow Brexit minister, after she reportedly compared the approach of Mr Corbyn's staff to that of "the bunker" in Downfall, a 2004 film depicting Adolf Hitler's final days.

They will consider a motion calling for a no confidence vote in Mr Corbyn.

If passed, a ballot would then be held of all Labour peers.

I think I prefer to keep Compo Corbyn as the cabbage patch king a while longer yet. He admirably plays the role of useful idiot.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 11:12 AM

Iain's - Funny how you suddenly turn up
within minutes of not so favourable posts regarding your obsessions being deleted...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 11:35 AM

btw.. is it just me who finds titles such as 'Baroness' anathema for a Labour party...???

I'd dread to think such self important pretensions go to their heads...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 02:01 PM

Iain's - Funny how you suddenly turn up
within minutes of not so favourable posts regarding your obsessions being deleted...???

Another one for the mods to deal with please. I could make a detailed response but prefer not to.

The cabal's sexual and anal obsessions are best left alone.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 02:43 PM

Big bully kid writing complaints to teacher when his victims fight back...

Did you take the coloured crayons off a smaller kid...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 04:48 PM

Comment in green is unfunny, inappropriate and uncalled for, as well as anonymous. And giving succour to a troll.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 05:57 PM

aha.. I've just twigged...

green = mod...

The green words fit in so well in context,
it read as if Iains was still burbling away on his own trajectory to nowhere relevant.....


"cabal" - a secret political clique or faction.

So secret in fact, I don't even know if I'm a member of it...!!!???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 06:22 PM

You're not. None of us are. Someone is negatively and seriously obsessed. But anonymity is a useful defence against the naming of names. As if I don't know.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 02:08 AM

"The cabal's sexual and anal obsessions are best left alone."
Fat safer to plouter through the "Bogs" eh ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 03:59 AM

I'm not a mod!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 04:52 AM

Thank God!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 04:58 AM

For once, Ians, :-D

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 10:17 AM

"The cabal's sexual and anal obsessions are best left alone."

or the now deleted and paraphrased from memory..

" we mustn't put up with their filth.."

What I find amusing/uncomfortable/disconcerting/odd/unacceptable/etc
is that in a folk music forum celebrating the earthy music of the common working folks;
that such middle class prissy prim and proper pruderery should raise it's ugly head...

Whether it be from members or mods, it is out of place and unwanted.
This dreadful urge to impose self-rightious puritanical personal moralising on the mudcat community.
It goes way back to the supercillious paternalistic upper class Victorian christian interference and bowlderising
of the rambunctious and cheerfully vulgar songs of the greater common people...

Please remember, mudcat is a folk music forum in 2019,
not a Salvation Army hut in 1919..

Now to come back up to date right now and relate this to our concerns with the Labour Party.
Similar puritanical urges from various diverse zealots within the party to control and chastise members,
and all other ordinaray folks outside in wider society,
are ripping the party apart..
It has been taken over by middle class academics and careerist student politicians,
too obsessed with book learnt ideologies...
Forcing working class folks to abandon their own traditional party which they can no longer identify with.
Pushing them out into the direction of more relatable down to earth alternatives like Tommy Robinson and his thuggish kind...

Moralising puritanical control freaks are the bane of ordinary folks...
The modern left's obsession with strict unforgiving 'PC' is self defeating,
and effectively making the far right look a much more appealing prospect
for ex Labour voters fed up with how the party has been hijacked by uptight ideological puritans...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 10:48 AM

Cont... [well I thought I'd posted the finished version I'd just proofread...????]...



The far right are exploiting and capitalising on Labour's internal rifts and media exagerated strife.

But they are also providing a more welcoming home
for woking class folks who are being abandoned and excluded by the modern increasingly middle class [oxbridge] Labour party..

Corbyn's successor needs to be one of 'us',
not yet another one of 'them'..
Labour needs a younger leader who has worked up from ordinary roots via the world of work and self education / adult education..
not exclusively student union politics...
A new leader with less baggage of the past for the right wing media to exploit,
and portray as another terrorist loving 'marxist bogeyman/woman'...

This does not rquire the sheding of core Labour principles.
But presentaion and image of a new leader matters in this dumbed down age of the cult of personality...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 01:11 PM

Away from the fancy theorising, the Washington Post had this to say a few months ago:
"While a no-deal Brexit is a clear worry given the potential for economic carnage, the prospects of a hard-left Labour government under Corbyn is arguably even more troubling for financial markets."
    This is the same Corbyn that Bloomberg quotes thus:
"... agrees with finance spokesman, John McDonnell: The main opposition party should prepare for a run on the pound and capital flight from Britain should it take power.“
      Yet the left is obsessed with Brexit. Perhaps a future under Corbyn is simply so awful they refuse to countenance it?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 01:32 PM

I wouldn't trust American perspectives,
or self-centred motivations behind their analysis of our domestic politics...

Likewise as much, they couldn't give a monkeys what we think of theirs...

However, in reality, I do see our far right taking their inspiration and ideas
from contentious American alt right polemicists...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 02:26 AM

"I wouldn't trust American perspectives, "
Typicaly unopenable unless you pay for the privilege of doing so (maybe that's because of my Ad-blocker)
McDonnell is a staunch supporteer of staying in Europe and also a staunch left winger, so while Iains is happy to use a vague reference to how people view the left, he totally ignores tha fact that he is one of those he pours contempt on each time he posts

It seems somewhat mindless to scour the web looking for out-of-context quotes from people who are consistently arguing the opposite to whay you are - as Iains has now reduced his level of posts to - simple, manipulated propaganda
It seems equally mindless to respond to that propaganda
Iains is stonewalling away from the damage that is bing done on a daily basis by Brexit and those who respond to him are allowing him to

It is noticeable that even his running-mates have done a runner - this has become an extremely boring dialogue, not dissimilar to bouncing a ball against a wall - as far from intelligent debate as you can get
Bo-ring..... (as the youth are fond of saying
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 03:36 AM

I wouldn't trust American perspectives,
Try the original UK ones then

Money is already draining from Britain but because of Corbyn, not ...
https://www.spectator.co.uk › Features Dec 1, 2018

A Labour government is unambiguously bad for markets': Experts ...
https://www.investmentweek.co.uk/...week/.../fund-buyers-corbyn-next-election-labou...Jan 3, 2018

The economic consequences of Jeremy Corbyn | Financial Times
https://www.ft.com/content/0e956c1e-a8e5-11e7-93c5-648314d2c72c
Oct 5, 2017

How might Jeremy Corbyn and a Labour government affect ...
https://www.marketviews.com/.../how-might-jeremy-corbyn-and-a-labour-government...Jan 9, 2018

I can understand your reluctance to accept the above unanimous conclusions PM Corbyn would be a tragedy and a disaster of epic proportions. SCARY!
The more "challenged may see it all as propaganda but I suspect that respected publications such as the Financial Times have a wee bit more nous about such things than contributors here.
Labour of course is but a byword for fiscal irresponsibility.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 03:54 AM

Funny how when the media say anything negative about Corbyn it must be true yet when they say anything negative about brexit it is just project fear. How come the dire consequences that everyone predicts about leaving the EU are dismissed as just predictions but a few pundits predicting the end of the world as we know it if Labour get to power are believed and repeated?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 04:16 AM

Money is already draining from Britain but because of Corbyn, not ...https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-damaged-city-of-london-2018-11?r=US&IR=T

A Labour government is unambiguously bad for markets': Experts ...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/no-deal-brexit-crisis-banks-economic-social-uk-finance-theresa-may-eu-a8727901.html

Brexit has turned Britain's business community into refugees fleeing a dying economy - even the Brexit financeers have run for safety
It has undermined the political system, jettisoned twp prime minister and put a rcist clown in Downing Street
Corbyn will have to work ***** hard to match that

How stupid is this mindless flow of propaganda going to get ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 04:31 AM

Corbyn is a mainstream European social democrat, funny how Iains resorts to Trump type language to make his slurs. Corbyn would not be my first choice Labour Prime Minister (at the moment Keir Starmer would) but every Labour MP, with the possible of Kate Hoey, would make a better Prime Minister than the two candidates for leadership of the Tory party.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 04:40 AM

Propagandists and their propaganda are very, very simple to deal with - ignore them! Propaganda has got us into the disastrous, self-harming debacle of BrexShit - if dopey, feeble-minded people had ignored the propagandists, we wouldn’t be in this ridiculous mess, we wouldn’t be getting the Blond Buffoon for PM, and the rest of the world wouldn’t be pissing their pants laughing at us.

How many times does it need to be said - don’t feed the troll!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 05:11 AM

I am glad you see the FT as a propaganda mouthpiece. This may in part explain Labour's consistent financial ineptitude, if it is a party wide view .

Jeremy Corbyn YouGov poll
Sample Size: 1749 GB Adults Fieldwork: 16th - 17th July 2019

I would want him managing the Brexit process and to run the country afterwards 10%
I would want him managing the Brexit process, but not to run the country afterwards 3%
I would not want him managing the Brexit process, but I would want him to run the country afterwards 7%

Fairly dire results by anyone's standards! T'would appear Compo is best off among his cabbages on the allotment.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 05:13 AM

I don't agree BWM, the far right were ignores for far too long, instead of being taken down at the start. The dirt on Banks was dished up far too late, and there is plenty on Johnson and Farage that we don't make nearly enough of. Darius Guppy for example. The characters of these charlatans should be ruthlessly exposed.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 05:26 AM

"don’t feed the troll!"
Totally agree
Our homegrown one exposes his vacuuity with his mindless stream of propaganda -
Anybody who suggests a Labour leader would destroy a long-destroyed economy makes a far better job of it than we could
Plenty moe to discuss without Iaian's light relief
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 05:30 AM

The ‘propagandist’ I was referring to is our Resident Right-Wing Extremist Troll.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 05:35 AM

The ‘propagandist’ I was referring to is our Resident Right-Wing Extremist Troll, who seems to have his tongue firmly planted in the arse-crack of at least one of the Mods.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 05:55 AM

With respect, I'm increasingly of the opinion that we take a pot at the mods way too often. Iains does it all the time in his uniquely-lamentable fashion and when we join in it puts us in his camp. I only know of three mods and I doubt whether any of them spend that much time reading all our frequently-aimless input. They don't always do what some might want them to (eg, get rid of him) and they may miss things and even put their foot in it. But they don't get paid. And Iains does get deleted a lot.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 06:06 AM

I didn’t appreciate the green comment, Steve. Completely uncalled for.

If the Mods want to be respected and taken seriously, they won’t achieve that by snarky, anonymous stuff like that little gem.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 06:17 AM

As I said, they can put their foot in it. The "green" comment should have been posted as a non-mod comment (or preferably not at all). Comments made with mod hat on should be, er, moderate...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 06:22 AM

The thread title is Labour the party of remain. The same party that got elected on a leave ticket, just like the Tories.
Leave won the referendum. A fact the left refuses to acknowledge!
When this is pointed out by the few supporting Brexit the immediate response of the remainers is continuous insults:

Our homegrown one exposes his vacuuity with his mindless stream of propaganda -

Resident Right-Wing Extremist Troll, who seems to have his tongue firmly planted in the arse-crack of at least one of the Mods.

...it is of no interest to me if the party wants to continue to self destruct..."
...he gasped, as he approached orgasm....

Not forgetting of course any counter view to that of the cabal is immediately labelled trolling.
However the counter view had the majority vote in the referendum.
Another undeniable fact!
The vast majority of insults come from the lefties.Yet another undeniable fact.
Now the common definition of trolling is:In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages.
There are three examples above and how many aimless witterings come from the left about recipes, food, wine and ramblings when the unpalatable truths are presented to them?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 07:13 AM

I am not worried about Iains. It is the likes of Farage, Johnson, Banks, Yaxley-Lennon whom we need to take down. And to use whatever non-violent means we have to do it. Why has Johnson's bust up with his latest piece of fluff gone silent for instance. Johnson has a squalid private life, which should be all over social media and billboards all over the country. Why is someone found to have committed electoral fraud allowed to use his ill-gotten wealth to intimidate journalists, without any retribution? The juxtaposition of Farage and his mob turning their backs on the European Parliament with the Nazis doing the same in 1930, that should be on billboards everywhere. Civilized people are being too damn civilized, and allowing the extremists to roll over them.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 07:36 AM

I completely agree David. But here, on this forum, we are all just nobodies expressing our displeasure, and we have one troll deliberately posting very selective, highly spun posts with no purpose other than to antagonise the majority. When they fail to achieve his purpose, he resorts to insult and abuse. And, of course, he plays the old barrack-room-bully’s game of running to Sir(s) playing the victim.

He’s not a politician, he has no influence, he’s an ex-squaddie barrack-room-bully-boy nonce who gets his sorry-ass kicks from sowing dissent and causing argument on the Internet by posting inflammatory stuff, and he’s best ignored.

Save your argument and outrage for those who can actually influence the outcome of issues that affect our lives. Ignore the troll.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 08:18 AM

He’s not a politician, he has no influence, he’s an ex-squaddie barrack-room-bully-boy nonce who gets his sorry-ass kicks from sowing dissent and causing argument on the Internet by posting inflammatory stuff, and he’s best ignored.

As was said to one of your acolytes some years back:
Your attempts to elevate are very childish. Read the rules, follow them, everything is great. They apply to everyone.
Debate issues, leave personal attacks home.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 08:41 AM

nonce - Wiktionary
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nonce

Noun. nonce (plural nonces) (Britain, slang, derogatory) A sex offender, especially one who is guilty of sexual offences against children.

Will the mods please delete the slur above.It goes well beyond what is reasonable.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 09:00 AM

"Debate issues, leave personal attacks home."

I will if you will...


"Noun. Nonce (plural nonces)(Britain, slang, derogatory) A sex offender, especially one who is guilty of sexual offences against children

Will the Mods please delete the slur above. It goes well beyond what is reasonable."

Another selective quote from the R-WE troll. Here's the full definition, including the piece you carefully chose not to include...

"Noun. nonce (plural nonces) (Britain, slang, derogatory) A sex offender, especially one who is guilty of sexual offences against children. That bloke who lives at number 53 is a nonce! (Britain, slang) A stupid or worthless person.
https://en.wiktionary.org › wiki"

As my post made no reference to 'sexual offences', in fact no mention of sex was made in my post, but my post did refer to your stupid, objectionable behaviour on this forum, there is no reason that anyone would assume that I was accusing you of being a sex-offender (and of course I wasn't) - it's perfectly obvious to the unbiased observer that the emboldened part of the definition was the sense in which the word was used.

So, squeal away to the Mods as much as you like, you stupid, worthless person - I really care not one jot.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 09:39 AM

so... a day considering the contentious green comment later...

Are we any clearer in determining if "The cabal's sexual and anal obsessions are best left alone."

was actually posted by a real mod..

or Iains himself impersonating a mod in order to pretend he has a one on his side,
for whatever nefarious reason he has...???

If he is guilty of resorting to such low tricks of maquerading as a mod,
then the real mods should act swiftly to penalise him for such sly tactics...

At the very least, confiscate his coloured crayons and suspend him...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 09:46 AM

Or maybe, if it was written by a mod, that mod might like to clarify why that comment was posted...
and in future communicate in a less confusing manner...

Iains - help the mods out, and show some respect for mudcat...

did you or did you not select a green crayon to write that comment yourself...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 10:37 AM

Why has Johnson's bust up with his latest piece of fluff gone silent for instance. Johnson has a squalid private life, which should be all over social media and billboards all over the country

Which part of "private life" is so difficult to understand?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 10:38 AM

Interesting, Iains, that you took exception to "nonce," which can and does have non-sexual connotations, but not to the reference in your post to your adversaries' "sexual and anal obsessions" (which are unknown to the person who came up with that expression, of course), which can't. Care to explain what looks a bit like a double standard?

Thought not...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 10:42 AM

Nigel, these guys exploit to the full the very public social media and gutter press to further their personal and political agendas. It's time-honoured that such people risk having their dirty linen aired in return. I don't care for that myself, but that's the real world which they help to forge.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 10:58 AM

I don't care who is elected as primus minister, but for me is FOREVER THERESA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 10:59 AM

Iains - stop whining about ad hominem..

It is more than justifiable to not only refute what you write,
but to also identify and expose the malign motivations of the person writing them...

If in the course of robust debate there are exchanges of matey banter insults,
.. well.. that's what grown up blokes do, and have done since cavemen first uttered
"mate, stop being such a whiny **** !!!"...


Of course, we all know that whining about ad hominem is what right wing zealots do as a last resort
when they know they are being beaten in rational informed debate..
That and the associated evasive tactic of accusing their winning opponents of being too vulgar
using coarse language,
so that you can then act all superior and escape from debate with your tail between your legs...

We know those are two mostly used smarmy right wing parachutes out of trouble...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 11:00 AM

. Care to explain what looks a bit like a double standard?
A few offerings one recent others not so recent but from one thread
"The cabal's sexual and anal obsessions are best left alone."but you insisted

Date: 15 Jul 19 - 03:39 PM
...he gasped, as he approached orgasm....
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 06:36 PM
You really are a tosser aren't you.
From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 01:30 AM
- i asure you my insults are very well reasoned and deserved...
my mudcat persona is usually more moderate than this..
that arse brings all this upon himself...
From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 12:39 AM
..but I'm only human.. I should have called him a fukwitted life draining right wing c@nt...
theleveller - PM
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 07:34 AM
Iains is a complete and utter wanker
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 06:48 AM Could we not even say 'He is a right arsehole' or 'a right wanker' PFR? who is this inane iain character - he seems a right poisonous little shit?
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 06:55 AM
Young Iain decides to try to wind up the old folks on there using decidedly poor manners combined with youthful arrogance.
Most of the posts come across as those of a stroppy teenager so it makes sense. Picture Harry Enfield's 'Kevin' beavering away on here in between masturbating over his latest unreachable fantasy.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 11:08 AM

Iains - yes, those seem fair enough objective evaluations of you...

Thanks for the reminder... btw, how many months or years have you gone back searching 'em...???

Seeing as you have gone to the trouble, any chance of a fuller list,
these 'greatest hits' have whetted the appetite for more such amusements...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 11:10 AM

Nope, Iains. That won't do. I asked you a pretty specific question. You whinged like mad about being called a nonce (which has now been explained to you) but let pass without comment a remark in your very own post about your adversaries' sexual and anal obsessions, about which neither you nor the writer of that expression, if it wasn't you, know anything. You accept both or you accept neither, otherwise you are indulging in double standards. Which is it to be?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 11:10 AM

oh yes, and now that you have gone all rainbow colours so soon after the UK Pride festivals,
is there something you are working up the confidence to tell us...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 11:34 AM

Iains - yes, those seem fair enough objective evaluations of you...

Thanks for the reminder... btw, how many months or years have you gone back searching 'em...???
A maximum of 2 years one month, every one of the quotes is dated, and the maths is not really that difficult.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 11:44 AM

Nigel - thanks for that informative put down.
But it really is that difficult for some of us mudcatters with poor eyesight
to cope with such gratuitous abuse of coloured text..

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 11:45 AM

He might have gone back much further, finding nothing before two years and one month ago, so the question was fair. And it didn't require an answer, what's more. It was rhetorical, like.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 11:51 AM

Nigel - besides which, if pointing that out to me gave you a sense of triumph..

Don't be so bloody literally minded and pedantic...

It is blatantly obvious I wasn't making a serious request for hard facts and figures...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 12:04 PM

So.. who else has noticed in the years since joining mudcat,
that so many of the more actively antagonistic mudcatter 'conservatives'
seem to behave as though they are somewhere on the spectrum...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 12:12 PM

If Johnson doesn't like the heat, he can keep well away from the kitchen.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 12:13 PM

It has crossed my mind, pfr (Mrs Steve used to be the school SENCO...), but I'd no sooner try to pin that on anyone than I'd accuse anyone of having unusual sexual or anal predilections...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 12:17 PM

Steve - I agree it would be ungentlemanly to make direct accusations naming names..

But considering the possibility does help us understand better to put them in perspective...

Same as the extent to which successful business leaders and politicians are diagnosable sociopaths...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 12:28 PM

Yep. I've certainly considered a number of possibilities here...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 12:40 PM

It's possible that Hilary Benn may join conservatives in which case he may become prime minister at some point in time!!!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 12:48 PM

Bonz - whoever we tend to habitually vote for,
it has become apparent that we are now in a political era
requiring some realignment...

There are other labour MPs who I would be happier
if they would do the decent thing and cross the floor
to where they most at heart belong...

Margaret Hodge is top of my mind right now...

Though maybe she thinks she can achieve more for the tories from staying within the Labour party...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 04:25 PM

Though maybe she thinks she can achieve more for the tories from staying within the Labour party...???
Quite possibly, but when it comes to helping the tories poor old compo leaves everyone else in the shade! and now this:

Jeremy Corbyn's top aide instructed party officials to compile a dossier setting out how Labour's highest disciplinary body could be challenged, leaked emails have revealed.

Mr Corbyn's chief of staff, Karie Murphy, said it was "absurd"
the National Constitutional Committee (NCC) - which operates independently of the party's governing body - was able to "overrule" concerns raised by the leadership.

The time has come,' old compo said,
      To talk of many things:
False News — and slips — and sealing-wax —
      Of cabbages — and things
And why my party is going to pot —
      And whether pigs have wings.'

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 04:26 PM

I think Margaret Hodge is fixated on a single issue, and this has blinded her to the reasons that she was in Labour in the first place, which was to get rid of the tories. I don't think she actually agrees with the tories, but is blind to the fact that she is doing their work. I don't think that Hilary Benn would join the tories. He has opposed the current Labour leader, but I am sure that with his background he appreciates that the tories are far, far worse.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 04:52 PM

Iains seems to have forgot how many times I've explained,
I've never been a member of the Labour party, probably never will be,
and am not a Corbynite..

[I have never cared much for the cult of personality...
That's something us old punkrockers hold fast on..
"No more heroes..."]

Iains - pin back your ears again and try to listen one more time..

What I actually am, is an anti tory who sees voting for the Labour party
as the only serious way of banishing the tories from power every now and then..
I myself have plenty I can carp on about criticizing
the currently terminally self destructive Labour party..

As such, all Iains efforts to 'upset' me when he so childishly insults Corbyn are wasted...
I've been looking forward to Jezza's successor ever since he was surprisingly appointed
as the best of a mediocre at best, and treacherous at worst, bunch...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 05:28 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Margaret Hodge is a disreputable woman who has failed in every role given to her, and who has done damage, especially to vulnerable children at the hands of paedophiles, and her complacent and careless handlings of such issues was far from being a one-off. At last count she has been obliged to issue at least four abject apologies for her mishandlings. You can all google. She is an anti-Corbyn obsessive who has bigged up her rather tenuous links to Judaism (her parents were refugees but she herself can hardly claim, as she often does, to be a victim of antisemitism) in order to attack him. Go on, have a look at her record. And that's how we judge people, not by their come-froms. The woman is a disgrace.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 04:09 AM

The most obvious description of a wanker is someone who gives pleasure to no one but himself. If the cap fits...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 04:26 AM

Remember this little gem addressed to the gnome? It portrays you more accurately as a spiteful little goblin:
Why do you have such a craving for causing trouble? You sound so much like a church lady I once knew - very pious on the outside, but just itching to cause a fight wherever she was. She was the most hateful person in the congregation, but she tried so hard to maintain a pious facade. Sounds just like you.

Don't you have anything better to do with your time?

Nothing to add to the discussion? so back to the insults?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 04:38 AM

See what I mean?

I wonder who found that 6 and 7/8ths was indeed the perfect size?

I did try reason for a while. It obviously didn't work. Back to totally ignoring I think.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 07:45 AM

Iains - can you please stop being such an inconsiderate show off prick
with your self-indulgent coloured text wankery.

It shows no respect for mudcaters with eyesight problems..

Instead of wasting your useless life digging up your usual crap off the internet,
do some actually useful reseach on google regarding text colour
and viual impairment.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 07:53 AM

..or maybe you already have..

and you are doing it deliberately out of spite
to cause inconvenience and discomfort to other mudcatters..

Who knows, anything is possible with you and your warped malicious motives...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 08:14 AM

”I did try reason for a while. It obviously didn't work. Back to totally ignoring I think.”

You know it makes sense...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 08:36 AM

Iains - can you please stop being such an inconsiderate show off prick
with your self-indulgent coloured text wankery.

You leftards seem have a compulsion on wanking. Have you thought of trying therapy? Does it make you go blind?

Are you a morning ,noon and night person like the gnome or are you a binge masturbator that can lock themself in their home or a motel room for days on end, losing all track of time and life in the real world.
Allow me to point you in the right direction with your disorder. There would seem to be a number of you suffering.
My commiserations. I have no such disorder.
https://blogs.psychcentral.com/sex/2012/05/compulsive-masturbation-the-secret-sexual-disorder/

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 08:48 AM

Mods - please can you have a firm word with Iains and take his crayon box off him...

Ignore any further petulance and tantrums if he refuses to hand them over...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 09:10 AM

Iains - your selfish arrogant contempt for mudcatters with failing eyesight is clear enough for all to see
and take note of...

What other disabilities do you mock with such relish and spite...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 09:33 AM

"You leftards seem have a compulsion on wanking. Have you thought of trying therapy? Does it make you go blind?

Are you a morning ,noon and night person like the gnome or are you a binge masturbator that can lock themself in their home or a motel room for days on end, losing all track of time and life in the real world.
Allow me to point you in the right direction with your disorder. There would seem to be a number of you suffering.
My commiserations. I have no such disorder.
https://blogs.psychcentral.com/sex/2012/05/compulsive-masturbation-the-secret-sexual-disorder/"

From the member who goes squealing like a big girl to the Mods that, "Thothe naughty boyth over there have been thaying nathty thingth to me!"

Now everybody, repeat after me..."IGNORE THE TROLL".

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 10:30 AM

201... on the presumtion that it could soon be 200 for a few minutes..

before becoming at best guess probably 185 or thereabouts...

So... Chaps 200 could be up for grabs again some time very soon...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 10:55 AM

If everybody ignored the ignorant, deranged twerp, the mods wouldn't need to delete posts, pfr.

IGNORE THE BLOODY TROLL!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 11:13 AM

BWM - hah.. you got 200 without realising and claiming it...

Now you'll have to live with the shame..
Wait till DtG finds out...

This is a serious matter...!!!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 11:23 AM

I've abandoned all hope on this one PFR!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 11:33 AM

So.. are we awaiting announcement of the new liberal leader with bated breath...???

..thought not...

OH wait.. breaking news.. it's.. ah who cares...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 01:56 PM

"ah who cares..."
Never thought I'd regard the Lib Dems as having any uses but the more Boris and the Braindeads are shown to be in a class of their own, the better
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 02:24 PM

The leftards do not like a dose of their own medicine judging by the anguished squeals. How sad!

Meanwhile buried in among the Guardian's numerous appeals, for fools to part with their dosh to fund their rants, there is an article highlighting:
Labour still doesn’t take the threat of Boris Johnson seriously
I can well understand how this arises with compo corbyn at the helm.
I would give better odds on the Titanic having a successful outcome!! (and we all know how that ended up)

Among the membership 43% say he’s doing a bad job; more than 70% see antisemitism as a genuine problem; and 27% want the leader to stand down immediately. Hardly a ringing endorsement.
Corbyn and his allies made it a point of honour to ignore not just the mainstream media but also the opinion polls. This made sense when the polls were (with a few honourable exceptions) wildly unenlightening and the media (again, with exceptions) indefensibly credulous. Yet the leadership remains wedded to the idea that negative polling can be dismissed as an establishment plot, and stolidly resists any data that goes against a precast narrative.

That latter point seems very reminiscent of much posting on here. Obviously analysis of lessons learnt is a lost art here.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 04:31 PM

Among the membership 43% say he’s doing a bad job

So 57% think he is doing a good job. Better majority than the brexit vote then.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 07:50 AM

BoJo scares the living shit out of everyone but the few thousand old, rich, white men who voted him to lead the country into the abyss while they get richer. Normal people are either shaking their heads in disbelief, laughing their socks off or battening down the hatches.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 09:46 AM

"He's like an attention seeking toddler who won't go to sleep..
The more he argues, sqwarks, and whines, the longer he might extend his bedtime
and gain attention from the grown ups..."

Absolutely correct, pfr. In a different life he'd be one of the morons going round spraying graffiti on shop-windows and public buildings. And every time his crap was cleaned off, he'd be back spraying more.

SO IGNORE THE DAFT BUGGER!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 11:26 AM

From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:00 AM
Labour - the party of trying to get the tories out of power,
even if difficult political decisions and compromises must be reluctantly made along the way
in order to prioritise achieving that primary objective...


So the primary purpose of Labour is to depose the Conservatives?

Will they be happy to do this and let the Brexit party in, or the Lib Dems?

Surely the Labour party should have something positive which they aim to achieve, even if they are telling neither the general public nor their members.


I think that, for once, you've summed up the situation perfectly.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 12:03 PM

It's at times like this I miss Keith - as difficult and obsessed an opponent as he was,
at least he did have some humanity and concern for other people...

I doubt there's a cell in Nigel's and Iain's bodies
that isn't spiteful and loathesome...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 12:10 PM

I'm buggred if I can be bothered replying to nigel again, if it just gets deleted within minutes...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 12:23 PM

I do like all the unpalatable truths being deleted. It merely highlights the fact that the left inhabits a bubble of delusion and cannot live with reality.

Hilarious !!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 12:37 PM

Iains - no.. it's more likely a stressed and fed up mod thinks we're all a bunch of tiresome c@nts...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 12:48 PM

"Surely the Labour party should have something positive which they aim to achieve, even if they are telling neither the general public nor their members."

The Labour Party (the opposition, remember, Nigel, not the executive) has a firm policy of putting any deal to a public vote. That seems clear enough to me as a member. Personally, I should like the stance to be anti-brexit. But the current position is clear. I should also like to remind you that, just over two short years ago, Labour concentrated in the election campaign on putting forward the costed policies in their manifesto, whether you thought they were realistic or not, whereas your party concentrated on obsessively trying to demonise Jeremy Corbyn. The manifesto didn't get much of a look in. See where that got you.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 04:32 AM

"SO IGNORE THE DAFT BUGGER!"
Sorry Baccky - couldn't resist the self-humiliating clown
Won't happen again
Jim

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 09:34 AM

TOO GOOD NOT TO SHARE _ BORIS TAKES OFFICE

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 10:18 AM

The Labour Party (the opposition, remember, Nigel, not the executive) has a firm policy of putting any deal to a public vote. That seems clear enough to me as a member. Personally, I should like the stance to be anti-brexit. But the current position is clear.
That does seem clear, if it is the whole policy of the Labour Party with regard to Brexit.
Just to be totally clear, they want any deal put to public vote.
If it looks like there will be no-deal then they have no policy?

Even when you try to make things explicit and clear about where the party stands there are still gaping holes.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 10:26 AM

"explicit and clear about where the party stands there are still gaping holes."
Says a supporter of the party that has been at each others throats for three years and is still unable to agree on the most important decision Britain has ever had to make
The problem is that the Government should never have allowed such a divisive referendum presented to the people in the terms that it was
When Enoch Powel expressed the same policies his Party was too decent to have anything to do with it
No longer the same party, it seems
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 10:30 AM

So Nigel, can you tell us unequivocally that the Conservative party is ALL agreed on a one way forward ......... or are there perhaps "gaping" differences in the numerous factions amongst their ranks.

Could you tell us if their leader (god help us) has a certain policy to put in place that will remin the same until after the process has finished.

And, please bear in mind that the Conservatives not Labour has brought about the present situation all on their own and that they are charged with dealing with it.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 10:50 AM

I see The Praying Mantis, in her 'Order of The Boot Acceptance Speech' has suggested that Jeremy Corbyn should follow her example and resign. One small point of order - She may have been allowed to 'resign' but she was effectively kicked out of office.

They're terrified - scared absolutely shitless - of him, aren't they?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 11:07 AM

Oh yes, the clown in charge of the circus, thats going to work out well isn't it!!

Custard pie anyone ?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 11:08 AM

Have bookies started taking bets on the duration of Boris as PM...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 01:25 PM

If it looks like there will be no-deal then they [the Labour Party] have no policy?

No, there is a policy that there should be a referendum in the case of no-deal.

Or was that response nothing more than a criticism that Steve hadn't listed all the possibilities? Why should he? Those truly interested in the policy can find it.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 01:57 PM

The trouble with tories is they are so convinced it's the natural order of existence
that they should forever dominate everything...

Hence the likes of Nigel presuming he can dictate the terms of engagement in this thead...
Demanding we respond in ways that confirm his agenda...

We don't dance to your tune - we have our own much better, more imaginative
and creative composers and players...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 09:04 AM

Hence the likes of Nigel presuming he can dictate the terms of engagement in this thead...
Demanding we respond in ways that confirm his agenda...

I don't 'demand'. I merely ask that those who post are consistent in writing what they mean (preferably in language which makes their meaning clear), rather than something which they later repudiate.
It would also be nice (but again not a requirement) if those who post 'known facts' show where that 'knowledge' comes from, in order to differentiate it from opinion, and to enable 'fact checking'.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 09:57 AM

"preferably in language which makes their meaning clear"
As you are your two friends seldom respond to what others have posted, it's a little difficult to know what is clear and what isn't
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 10:34 AM

Nigel - it's probably too late in your life,
but you could try to understand the concepts of imagination, irony,
and figurative speaking...
That intelligent highly educated folks can and do engage in loose informal sloppy banter in forum chats..

Not every word in an internet forum must be held to account as though
it is a fact or figure from a PhD thesis, or a Government Report...

If that's what you expect here to meet your pedantic standards,
then you are in the wrong place...!!!

.. and I have always been consistent..
consistent in refraining from absolutist dogma.
I am a skeptic through and through.
When I do make outlandish statements of opinion as fact.
It is intended sascasm / satire..

Taking the piss out of habitually dogmatic zealots,
by aping their favoured form of opinionated biased communication......

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 11:03 AM

Far too sensible, PFR. You need to get back to your usual bollocks :-D

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 03:13 AM

A LABOUR MP has admitted in an astonishing act of candour that it is “too late” for the Labour Party to win the next general election because of its “wishy-washy” and “ill-defined” Brexit policy.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1158508/labour-party-news-brexit-latest-jeremy-corbyn-boris-johnson-election-lbc-owen-smith-vi
Labour backbencher Owen Smith, who is a fierce critic of leader Jeremy Corbyn, told LBC radio the party has already “blown it” if there is an Autumn general election. He explained to host Shelagh Fogarty: “To be honest, Shelagh, if there was an election in the Autumn as you were describing, it’s too late. We’ve already blown it because we prevaricated for so long now that we’ve even got to the stage that I’m not sure people care what our Brexit position is.
“They’re so used to it being wishy-washy and ill-defined and it seems to be getting more so.
“I’m a backbench Labour MP and I don’t know what our position is going to be in our manifesto.
“I think it’s going to be, from what I understand, that if the Tories are in power we’re in favour of a second referendum and Remain.

Lots of finking but sadly no hard facts. "quelle surprise"

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 03:39 AM

Owen Smith is as entitled to his opinion as anyone else, but it is worth remembering he stood in the Labour leadership elections against Corbyn; he had a substantially different view of where Labour should be going, which again he is entitled to, but he lost.

So he has been consistent in his opposition to Corbyn's plans, before, during and after the leadership election.

His view need to be understood in this context.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 04:04 AM

And again it's worth remembering that in a Party still recovering to a nasty dose of wat was nearly terminal New labourism, grabbing odd comments from a tiny handful of Parliamentarians is totally meaningless grabbing at straws from people who have nothing else to offer other than criminal bloggers
Corby still has the overwhelming support of the Labour memebers - even on the mythisac; antisemitism issue
Even the Tory set up YouGov has reported that fact
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 04:10 AM

Even a backnencher should be able to conjure up a document outlining the party's stance on Brexit. That he cannot speaks volumes!
It can be demonstrated with no effort at all that compo Corbyn changes his brexit position more often than his socks. Today is Monday. How many convolutions of his policy may we expect by Friday?
How can his hapless acolytes be expected to keep up?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 05:06 AM

"Corbyn changes his brexit position more often than his socks. "
Corbyn listens to what people say and takes it into consideration when forming policies - unlike the Tories who can't even agree on crucial votes in parliament
Remind us of how many prominent Tories Johnson has ditched or driven away
Just the way to get a balanced representative party - I don't ***** think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 05:58 AM

BrexShit is the Tories’ project, brought into being by a flawed, badly structured Referendum, called by an out-of-touch Old Etonian Tory PM who was soiling his boxers at the possibility of UKIP stealing votes from Tory supporters.

The next Tory PM - The Praying Mantis - refused steadfastly to allow anyone from any other party to be involved in the Tories’ Brexit Project, until it became clear that her plans had gone completely tits-up and she was on the verge of losing her job.

She then paid lip-service to the other parties by pretending to hold ‘discussions’ with them, which were nothing more than her telling them what she wanted, and refusing to take any notice whatsoever of anything they had to say.

BrexShit is the Tories’ project. It’s got Sweet Fuck All to do with Labour.

Everybody seems to understand that, except our Right-Wing-Extremist Tommy Robinson-Fan-Boy Thicktard.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 06:36 AM

Nice description of Johnson's cabinet in this morning's Irish Times
"The third-rate, the lightweight and the schoolmate"
The Irish always did have a way with words

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 07:13 AM

I assume you disagree with me then? Never mind! Let us see how Radnor turns out, though I must admit selecting the deselected MP as your candidate is a cunning plan more suitable for compo than the clever Eton boys. Perhaps Baldrick is involved!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 07:25 AM

Perhaps all this is easier to understand if some people get their minds around the fact that some socialists understand the EU as palliative care for a dying system, others just mistrust an organisation made up of Capitalist States working together (I tend to go for the former at present)
No genuine Socialist would dream of taking the 'Spic, 'Frog' and 'Kraut' approach that Farage and his soundalikes in the Tory Party have adopted - Socialism doesn't work like that - that's the domain of those at the other side of the Ballot Box (and humanity)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 01:45 PM

These are the same socialists that select candidates such as Ali Milani to stand as MP in Bojo's constituency.

https://thetab.com/uk/2017/04/10/nus-candidate-offensive-antisemitic-tweets-jews-stingy-36914


https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/revealed-ali-milani-labour-candidate-for-boris-johnson-s-seat-in-2015-press-tv-appearance-1.4

This sends a rather strong message to the antisemitic enquiry teama, the equivalwnt of two fingers in fact.
and you still claim Labour does not have a problem

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 02:01 PM

Iains - Yawnnnnnzzzz...

Long ago tweets by a stupid teenager,
who's had time to become better educated and more mature in his opinions...

Apart from that, I think young student politicians tend to be ideological pillocks,
too inexperienced in the real outside world to be taken too seriously...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 02:20 PM

"This sends a rather strong message to the antisemitic enquiry teama,"
Your Prime Minister is an open racist who talks about musilm women "looking like letterboxes" or "like bank robbers", "piccaninnies", "watermelon smiles" -ad a dozen other insults...
The Tory party is still riddle with anti semites, and has totally failed to respond to accusations of Islamophobie ansd is refuses to condemn openly racist statements by the US President - and you come up with one obscure pary member
What kind odf messsage to that convey - not just about the Tory Party but about Britain
You have waded the slike of the web - you continue to make racist statements about other nations - and wou have come up with precisely nothing
Whoever pays you too post here should really demand his money back
You really aren't very good at this
Take your racist filth elsewhere - you are polluting a good forum with your "bogtrotter" and your "Irish teapots" and your support for the misunderstood Tommy Robinsons of this world
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 03:57 AM

Cannot understand what is waycist about pointing out the obvious. Labour has a problem with antisemitism: It has made headlines for years. It is undeniable.
Your silly games of denial, whataboutism and then hurling insults do not make the issue go away.
The Irish Times has the following to say:
The party has not disclosed how many complaints are pending against members but the Sunday Times reported recently that it was more than 800. Some surround the language used to criticise Israel, including assertions that the state of Israel has no right to exist.
But others involve the sharing of images and memes on social media which feature anti-Jewish tropes that long predate Israel’s founding in 1948. They include the characterisation of Jews as parasitic international financiers and conspiracy theories alleging Jewish manipulation of global politics and media.

The focus of most recent criticism of the Labour leadership is on its handling of complaints, and claims that some of those around Corbyn have sought to interfere with the complaints process to protect left-wing allies.

Looks a pretty damming condemnation to me. Perhaps you need to go to specsavers?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 04:54 AM

"Labour has a problem with antisemitism: 2
Mudcat has a problem with antisemitism
Accuseing those who criticise Irrael of being antisemitic by definition (It is antisemitic to identify the Jewish people as a whole with the actions of Israel - Labour is guilty only of criticising Israel and these lying accusations only emerged after Corbyn made his statement on Palestine
The make what ids happening in Palestine "Jewish" is top paint a target on every Jew on the planet - it doesn't come more antisemitic than that
You want to show a problem of antisemitism, produce your attacks on the Jewish People - so far you have dredged up on slp of the tongue by one student nearly a decade ago - that's how valid your accusations are

It is of little surprise that this poster, who also has a thing for "bogtrotters" is also a raving homophobe
The mask seems to be off completely now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 04:58 AM

Jim, how many times have people asked you to ignore him? How many times have you said it yourself?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 05:22 AM

"Jim, how many times have people asked you to ignore him?"
He is now dominating this forum with his racist and homophobic filth
Time he was kicked off - Mudcat does not need an ultra propagandist who continues to attack other members racially and now on the basis of their gender inclinations
Several members of Mudcat have declared themselves to be homosexual
WE really don't need shit like this fouling up discussions (even if he only lets the mask slip after the pub closes)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 05:22 AM

It has come to a pretty pass when the former Labour spinmeister tells compo he will not continue with his appeal against expulsion from Labour because, as a political force, he thinks they are finished


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/alastair-campbell-corbyn-labour-brexit-tony-blair-lib-dems-eu-election-a9026311.h

For as long as compo remains, Bojo can say in all honesty:

Everyday in every way I’m getting better and better.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 05:37 AM

Yes Jim. Trouble is, by responding, you are encouraging him. If you want to get the "racist and homophobic filth" cleaned up you need to leave it to the moderation team. Contact Joe Offer, Jeri or Stilly River Sage with your concerns. By trying to clean it up yourself your are just smearing it.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 05:37 AM

"The party has not disclosed how many complaints are pending against members but the Sunday Times reported recently that it was more than 800. Some surround the language used to criticise Israel, including assertions that the state of Israel has no right to exist.
But others involve the sharing of images and memes on social media which feature anti-Jewish tropes that long predate Israel’s founding in 1948. They include the characterisation of Jews as parasitic international financiers and conspiracy theories alleging Jewish manipulation of global politics and media."

So the Sunday Times sez that, eh, and we take the weaselly unsupported comments as facts? If I ever heard a bona fide Labour Party member saying that Israel has no right to exist I'd be out of there like a shot. The quoted piece, innocent of detail or corroboration of course, is nothing more than a part of the concerted attempt to undermine the current party leadership. And whataboutery in this case is not about exonerating wrongdoing: it's about exposing the sheer hypocrisy of some of Corbyn's enemies who have far worse personal defects, such as openly racist, homophobic and misogynistic instincts. Let's take your party leader as a prime example, eh?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 06:09 AM

"Yes Jim. Trouble is, by responding, you are encouraging him. "
Not responding to him would allow him continue to use this forum for his megaphone extremism
As far as I'm concerned, now he has been dragged from the privacy of his bunker, the war is over - as far as I'm concerned, it's enough to have exposed what he is publicly in the hope nobody will now take hime seriously
Done and dusted.

Labou's so-called Antisemitism is just that and will continue to be so until it is proven without doubt.
The Labour Party was partially set up by Jewish refugees fleeing persecution
The left led the fight against Mosely and have always opposed bigotry and racism, while the right have overwhelmingly taken a racist stance - Brexit being a typical example
Now the right are using the Jewish people as a political weapon - a refined form of antisemitism
THIS IS WORTH READING IN FULL-AND NOT TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 09:18 AM

"Not responding to him would allow him continue to use this forum for his megaphone extremism"

And responding has achieved what exactly? Let him know he has scored a direct hit. Given him an excuse to continue posting. Striker his ego. You cannot win. Please read the Mudcat guidlines. Don't respond. Leave it to the mods.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 09:29 AM

I've finished Dave - so should you.
He's a creepy twatt not worth falling out over
Jim

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 09:35 AM

Labour party members support a number of solutions to the Israel - Palestine conflict, including a single secular state with guarantee of religious freedom for all, and a a two state solution within either the 1967 or 1948 borders. None of these positions are antisemitic. Nevertheless, I suspect that a number of these complaints are against exactly those positions.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 10:18 AM

This whole issue has nothing to do with thee Jewish People - everything to do with BDS
Some of the fiercest critics of the Israeli regime are Jews (go see The Gatekeepers' documentary to witness a ex-Mossad director comparing some aspects of modern Israel with Nazism)
Rather than describe them as anti-semitic the regime has labelled them "self loathing Jews"
There's a dictionary term for politicians who place themselves above te people they represent
A FRIEND OF ISRAEL
AN ENEMY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 10:23 AM

It would be very interesting to hear the details of some of these accusations. So far, all we’ve heard is that some people’s feelings have been hurt - no details of precisely how they were hurt, just wish-washy, broad-brush , “Oh, I’ve been subject to antisemitism dozens of times every day” kind of stuff, but with no substance whatsoever to support the claims.

And anybody who was taken in by those two shifty-eyed, ‘Friends of Israel’ characters in the piece with Victoria Derbyshire must surely believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden. No substance, no explanations, no detail to what they were claiming - just airy-fairy generalisations from two very sheepish-looking accusers.

If Jewish members of the LP are being subjected to anti-semitism by other members, let’s hear the details, and get the offenders weeded out. But without the kind of detailed explanations that would support a case were it to be reported to the police, it’s very difficult to believe it’s anything more than mischief-making by enemies of the current leadership.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 10:25 AM

Now if somebody were to say to a Jewish MP, "go back to the shithole country you come from", that would be antisemitic. But I havn't heard it.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 11:06 AM

That despicable bitter vengeful Margaret Hodge makes me seethe whenever I see her on TV...

So... my problem as a part-jewish labour voter,
who is angered and not afraid to speak out
against all the relentless malicious false accusations against Corbyn and the party,
is that it makes me both an antisemite and a self loathing jew at the same time..

I'm not sure my body and mind can cope with that much strange contradictory inner conflict and tension...!!!???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:04 PM

Not only antisemitic but also racist against people of colour. It never ends:
The Labour Lord Mayor of Liverpool has resigned after sharing a racist video comparing a black person to a monkey.

Absolutely disgusting behaviour! Who on earth would vote for such a party?


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-49162644

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:07 PM

Presumably the same kind of person who would vote for someone who describes black people as ‘piccaninnies with watermelon smiles’, and Muslim women wearing the Burqa as ‘letterboxes’.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:15 PM

I did not realise Labour had an Islamic problem as well. You must enlighten me! Does that make it full house?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:29 PM

HOW THE TORIES HANDLE RACISM AND BIGOTRY
AND AGAIN
TORY COUNCIL, TRAGEDY AND RACISM
"GO BACK TO WHERE YOU CAME FROM" TORYISM

Who'd vote for a bunch of Klansmen like this squalid lot
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:31 PM

Iains is a plant. There is nothing independent about his formulaic approach on this forum. I'm a member of the Labour Party and a trade union. Y'all know that, y'all know where I live, what music I like to play and listen to and even what I like to eat and drink, etc., and my postings here are made in that open and honest context. Most of the decent people here, including those who choose to post under a soubriquet, have given the rest of us some context as to who they are and where they're coming from. Not him. We don't know where Iains is coming from, but the pattern in his posts confirms that he is part of some grouping whose primary objective is to undermine Jeremy Corbyn via propaganda and unsupported accusations, not to speak of sneery personal remarks, completely uncalled for, about who is actually a dignified man, far more so than Iains, that's clear enough. I suspect that, in spite of his alleged great age (even though he posts like a brainless and immature yah-boo teenager in a hoodie), he is a junior member of his cabal who is told what to post. At least his mentor Staines manages to stay focussed for a minute or two He never directly responds to challenges to his points, merely moving on to his next mini-obsession and next tirade of insults. That's because he can't respond. He's not programmed to do that. He's a typical propagandist-only. It would be all very sinister if he wasn't so daft.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:34 PM

And that’s as good a summary as any of the reasons to ignore the Cupid Stunt.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:36 PM

"LETTERBOX" and "BANK ROBBER" PRIME MINISTER

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:44 PM

"And that’s as good a summary as any of the reasons to ignore "
About right I think, especially just after the pubs stop serving
It's noticeable that even his Tory friends don't even wish to have anything to do with him - who's to blame them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 01:05 PM

The only value I could see Iains having to his propaganda unit masters,
is by allowing them to harvest our responses to his blatant nonsense...???

Maybe by testing and trying to provoke us here in insignificant little mudcat,
they are working out counter tactics
that can be deployed in far more important social media sites...???

Like I said, the only conceivable value he might have to them is as far fetched a conspiracy plot
as that...

Or he's just so useless he's been banished here to keep him out their way until he retires from active service...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 01:31 PM

Maybe we can give him a medal for his services to racism and homophobia now he has declared himself exponents of both
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: peteglasgow
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 03:47 PM

i was at a constituency labour party meeting last week (about 50 people there) i mentioned that in a lifetime in the union and maybe 25 years in the labour party, i had never encountered any anti-semitism, though plenty of opposition to the israeli government and support for the palestinians. however, recently i have seen a lot of anti-labour behaviour by supposed labour party members. i was wondering what action would be taken against these members. our mp explained that there are 2 reasons - 1. jeremy corbyn can be too much of a nice guy and 2. these people would be likely to resort to appeals and court action to defend their membership of a party that they they feel they have the right to criticise whenever possible. our meeting agreed - there was no debate about these points just anger at the prominent labour mps who are more interested in attacking labour rather than the tories. can we use the word b..tards on here?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 03:15 AM

A very good piece from Opendemocracy.net here about the accusations of antisemitism being levelled against the LP. It’s a long read, but it raises some very important points.

I would recommend our Right-Wing Extremist Tommy Robinson Fanboy (who seems to have gone walkabout) to read it - assuming he has the attention-span, which is by no means a certainty.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 04:35 AM

Interesting report in The Times this morning
Nigel Farage has said that Johnson’s right-hand man on Brexit is not to be trusted as he “is not a true believer”
Hallelujah !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:30 PM

And that same right-hand man confirmed in a speech a couple of years ago that it's true that Tories don't care about ordinary people.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:39 PM

"....Tories don't care about ordinary people."
https://www.politicshome.coSO HE DID
Jim

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 11:49 AM

Iains - "wot a terrifficllly wity cartune pictcher.. the funnieest ever I seen...
thats Corbin laber that is haha lol"

That's me mimicking the average right wing response your hilarious post would get on the sort of forums you'd feel more at home in..

However, here's a random news headline.. and it's even from a prominent tory bumrag..

"Sheep are far smarter than previously thought - Telegraph"

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 12:08 PM

btw.. there's internet chatter about the safety of the site that image is posted on..

It doesn't seem the sort of place or discussion groups yer average old silver surfer British bloke would
even knew existed...



But Iains does...?????

funny that...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 04:05 PM

As I said, chaps, Iains doesn't ever respond to any challenges put to him. That isn't what he's programmed to do. He's an apparatchik of some far-right group. He'll insult back all right, but his direction of travel, his raison d'être, is perfectly transparent. He isn't here to debate. He's here to to further a far-right agenda. Unfortunately for him, he is by turns ridiculous and totally inconsistent. See him for what he is and let's call him out.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 11:12 PM

Morning after Brecon.. tory majority down to 1...

Predictably tory propagandists will be ramping up the attack on Labour in response...

But, will do or die Boris be reading up on harakiri...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 01:56 AM

Reducing the Tory majority - and of course it is really further reducing the Tory minority - is the big story, without a doubt, but if they were convinced they would lose it anyway, putting up the guy who was forced to step down was quite a good way of confusing the story. The seat has been LibDem or Tory for a long time, so a Libdem win can be presented as unexceptional. Figuring out the blend of a normal change, local issues, Brexit, Boris, Labour losses (as opposed to votes loaned to LibDem), assertion that the guy who was rejected had to go ... Very hard to isolate how much is due to what.

I am slightly disappointed in the Monster Raving Loony Party - they were not quite Raving and Loony enough, so let UKIP get the most loony position.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 11:00 AM

An unpublished Government document has revealed that within 24 hours of Britain crashing out of Europe all agricultural trade across the border will cease, causing food shortages, businesses to crash and a security threat within two weeks.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/no-deal-brexit-could-virtually-stop-some-trade-in-north-within-24-hours-leaked-memo-says-1.3974666

Special measures are being put into plce to prevent civil disorder.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 11:07 AM

Nigel will undoubtedly be along to say that says it COULD happen, not that it WiLL happen in the event of a no-deal.

As if that is enough to say it won't, or is very unlikely. It is likely enough the government us preparing for it, it seems, though I expect that to be ignored.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 12:18 PM

More project fear on steroids. Government plans for all kinds of contingencies. It is only in the good book that it shall come to pass.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 12:27 PM

"Government plans for all kinds of contingencies"

= BILLIONS of taxpayers cash wasted ending up in the pockets of tory supporting parasitic businesses...

"Hey chaps, let's create a massive potential problem,
so we can syphon off vast amounts of public money while we give the impresssion
we are fixing it...
Yes.. of course we'll blame Labour for causing this problem...!!!"...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 12:51 PM

TORY PANIC_MONGERS
More good news - gets better and better
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 02:10 PM

I see he has managed to get the brexit thread closed. Which I suspect was part of his instructions. If only people would stop dancing to his tune life on mudcat would be much sweeter.

---

One can hold one's nose and wade into that quagmire only so many times.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 02:16 PM

We can discuss brexit here. Why not.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 02:49 PM

"We can discuss brexit here. Why not."
Probably - if we take the advice of the Mods and "ignore the troll"
If they recognise him for what he is we damn well should be able to
Onwards and upwards
Jim

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 03:05 PM

The Irish commentariat are increasingly questioning Varadkar’s approach. Over the weekend Business Post columnist Colin Murphy argued the backstop has “been a disaster for Ireland”, Dan O’Brien, Chief Economist at the Institute of International and European Affairs, warns that the “first duty of those who oppose tribalism is to acknowledge the tribalism of one’s own side”, while Eoghan Harris blasts:

    “Unless we bin out fraudulent backstop, Boris Johnson will crash out of the EU, leaving our economy in ruins and our relations with England, our nearest neighbour, in rag order”.

Leo the lion is fast becoming a liability.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 03:18 PM

Funny how everbody not on the tory hard right are 'liabilities'.. and 'traitors'...???

funny that...????

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 03:50 PM

Probably - if we take the advice of the Mods and "ignore the troll"

I shall remind you of that when you next respond to him (or them), Jim :-)

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 04:56 PM

Totally off-topic, inexcusably so, but I'm posting this anyway. The England captain Joe Root was bowled out today in the first Ashes test by the Aussie bowler James Pattinson. Unfortunately for the latter, the bails didn't fall off and Root survived. This has caused nothing less than an international incident. But I'll tell you summat. While this particular fury rages, there'll be no brexit, no world wars, no Boris and no Trump. Treat yourself to a laugh-out-loud few minutes and read the comments after the Guardian report, "Joe Root’s lucky escape was far from freakish – bails law needs a rethink." I've been sitting here reading them for the last half hour and all my troubles have drifted away...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 06:01 PM

"Colin Murphy argued the backstop has 'been a disaster for Ireland'"

Did he really. Perhaps someone should tell him that we haven't had a backstop. What a daft thing to post here.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 06:55 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: "Colin Murphy argued the backstop has 'been a disaster for Ireland'"

Did he really. Perhaps someone should tell him that we haven't had a backstop. What a daft thing to post here.

You can't argue that the backstop does not exist because the legislation has not been passed. The legislation has not been passed because of the Backstop. The Leave Agreement has failed in Parliament, three times, because the backstop is there. Without the Backstop we could have ratified the agreement.

It's a bit like dark energy. You can't actually see it but it's effects are obvious for those wise enough to see it..

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 07:10 PM

Your understanding is hazy (as ever). The backstop is no more than a proposal at the moment and is not in any way in force. It's to do with our leaving with a deal, nothing else. The backstop keeps Northern Ireland in the customs union in the event of the lack of a trade agreement with the EU. It comes into force only if we can't strike a trade deal at the end of the transition period. We get a transition period only if we leave with a deal, not otherwise. Do feel free to ask any of us, bar Iains, for further explanation.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 07:45 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: Your understanding is hazy (as ever). The backstop is no more than a proposal at the moment and is not in any way in force. It's to do with our leaving with a deal, nothing else. The backstop keeps Northern Ireland in the customs union in the event of the lack of a trade agreement with the EU. It comes into force only if we can't strike a trade deal at the end of the transition period. We get a transition period only if we leave with a deal, not otherwise. Do feel free to ask any of us, bar Iains, for further explanation.

What a stupid answer. Because of the backstop, admittedly a concept rather than ratified law, the UK is set on a path of leaving the EU without a deal. Without the Backstop we could leave the EU with a deal. The difference is considerable. How can something that can result in a considerable difference not exist?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 07:56 PM

Don't call me stupid. There is no backstop. In words of one syllable (here we go,..), there will be a back stop if we leave WITH a deal but not hav ing ach ieved a trade deal at the end of a trans it ion per i od. We can leave the EU, with a trans it ion per i od, with a deal, with no back stop. No deal? No back stop. Are you there on this yet?

Anything else you'd like explaining, give me a shout. I do find this one-syllable stuff somewhat vexatious though. Some of us passed an exam or two...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 07:57 PM

And for a man of your age you go to bed far too late. I'm off. Nighty night.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 08:00 PM

The backstop exists in the Leave agreement. I wish it didn't. Martin said to his man ....

Nighty night.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 08:21 PM

As good a time as any to get rid of the nuisance of N. Ireland...

Disproportionately far more trouble than it's worth...

Let's put that to referendum...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 01:40 AM

Very shortly after the referendum I said we should allow a referendum in Northern Ireland on the question of reunification. They might - in fact at the time they probably would - have voted to stay as they are, so we would not have resolved anything. But had they voted for reunification many of the more troublesome parts of the negotiations would have been resolved. At the time, the Leavers were believed to be strongly in support of the preservation of the U.K. as is: after all, that seemed to be what the referendum was about, in many respects. It was literally years later that polls of the leavers indicated many would be prepared to lose the Union of the UK as long as they left from the EU.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 01:56 AM

I am aware, by the way, that the phrase "we should allow a referendum" sounds horribly colonial. However, that is the way the Good Friday Agreement says a referendum is initiated: the UK Secretary of State formally calls for one.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 03:29 AM

300

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 03:55 AM

'Northern' Ireland is a hangover of colonial times and has continued to exist only because of the deliberate creation of an imbalanced sectarian state.
It was not created in order to keep peace between the two communities; on the contrary, it was structured for Britain's benefit to keep the two sides at each other's throat and leave the state in 'safe' the hands of a dominant Protestant majority
The North's history is one of sectarian conflict - inor for re-unification, which was long put on the back-burner, but for Civil Rights - that never changed and it burst into flames in the late 1960s with the Civil Rights Marches being broken up by stone-throwing Unionists assisted by the RUC and eventually, the British Army.

That Northern Ireland should be "given a Referendum' is horribly colonial and patronising, I'm afraid
Ireland should never have been divided in the first place - even the 'Free Staters' agreed to it happening only on the basis that it was a temporary measure - the only reason it remained divided is that Britain backed an aggressively sectarian section of the Northern Ireland Establishment to keep it so.
The 'ordinary' people would almost certainly have been happy to see re-unification long ago - it would have been far more convenient for their daily lives to have done so.

Dividing Ireland has always been a perfect example of the old tactic of divide and rule - the secret lies in the name - Northern IRELAND. - the people of the North are as Irish as those of the South
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 08:23 AM

"The backstop exists in the Leave agreement. I wish it didn't."

Your wish is my command. There is no leave agreement. It has fallen off its perch and gone to join the choir invisible. It is an ex-leave agreement. In fact, it was never an agreement at all. An agreement needs both sides to sit down and sign on the dotted line. It never happened. So if the leave agreement doesn't exist, and the backstop "existed in it", the backstop doesn't exist either. And the groovy thing about the backstop is that it probably would never come into play even if we did leave with a deal. We'd have time to settle our trading arrangements with the EU without the need for it. But you lot don't want that. The Tory hardliners have even said that they won't vote for a deal even without a backstop in it. As for me, I want revocation. That's the only thing that can ever be of any use to this country, to Ireland and to the EU. You lot, by saying you won't accept a backstop, are in effect saying that you don't want a deal. No backstop means, one hundred percent, no deal, a dead cert. But you're not honest enough to come out and say it.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 09:04 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: So if the leave agreement doesn't exist, and the backstop "existed in it", the backstop doesn't exist either.

In the same paragraph;

Steve Shaw wrote: You lot, by saying you won't accept a backstop, are in effect saying that you don't want a deal. No backstop means, one hundred percent, no deal, a dead cert.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 09:07 AM

If the first of your two statements is correct, surely your second is nonsense.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 09:34 AM

The nutcase tory hard right are dreaming that Ireland will kick out Leo
and decide to leave the EU
to solve their probelm...


Evidence for their cunning stupidity..


Tory & aligned international right wing internet propagandists
have started attacking Leo and pushing for Ireland to leave the EU...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 10:02 AM

Don't be so incredibly obtuse, Stanron, even for you. The backstop was a proposal that was in May's deal, which is now dead. Your man swears he wants a deal (he's a liar, but hey), but insists that a backstop can't be part of it. Now if there's anything there you still don't get, don't bother letting me know.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 10:41 AM

BRITAIN'S PROFOUND KNOWLEGE OF IRELAND
THe "utter nonsense" comes from those who promise there will be no border while at the same time demand that the backstop must go - perhaps Stanton can square that particular circle - or not !!


All this is a severe case of Britain's history of reneging on promises coming back to bite their bum - the Irish are in the forefront of understanding that Britain is not to be trusted
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 11:08 AM

We definitely have a case of different language being used here. I can fully understand what Steve is saying. There is no backstop. This is a fact. The hard line brexiteers don't want a backstop. This is also a fact. The two things are completely compatible. It is simply like saying there are no flying purple people eaters and most of us don't want them to exist.

I cannot understand what problem you have with that, Stanron. Quite possibly my fault. Would you care to explain how the first statement makes a nonsense of the second.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 11:28 AM

..and also why should the fate of the rest of the entire UK
depend on such utterly absurd self indulgent petty politics
of a few stubborn obsessed fanatics...

N. Ireland - most* of us don't care,
and are sick of the decades of problems it's caused and perpetuated...


[* note to Nigel and other narrow minded statistics pedants..
'most'.. that's my personal opinion based on my own edumacated guess...]

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 11:29 AM

Well I care about all the people there.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 11:47 AM

Steve - that's nice of you..

But surely as humanists and internationalists,
our default setting is to care about all the people all over the planet...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 03:23 PM

Some complete fruitcake on radio 4, could have been John Humphries, asked some Irish representative why Ireland didn't leave the EU and unite with the UK!!! Talk about deranged. Why would they shackle themselves to a country about to jump off a cliff???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 03:34 PM

David - I refuse to give links or name a prime tory arsehole propagandist on youtube,
but can't stop anyone searching for yesterday's video,
and the viewer's comments,
on why Ireland must leave the EU to help out Boris...

His videos usually appeal to the most hostile right wing nutters...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 03:51 PM

ps.. my guess is yesterday was organised for various right wing 'influencers'
to hit the internet with co-ordinated propaganda
re: Leo must go / Ireland must leave...

Hands up who thinks some American money might be backing them...???

Hands up for Putin...???

Hands and feet up for both, and a variety of other global anti EU agencies...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 02:56 AM

David C - I didn't listen to the radio over the last few days, so can't say who made the remark. But I can confirm John Humphries asked exactly that question around two years ago.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 03:51 AM

Yes it wasn't recent DMcG, so its the same incident I am remembering. Could have been two years ago, time flies.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 04:15 AM

a href="https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jun/30/nazanin-zaghari-ratcliffe-richard-ratcliffe-boris-johnson-gaffes">A FORGOTTEN VICTIM OF OUR PRIME MINISTER'S STUPIDITY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 04:44 AM

Why anyone would quote the opinion of a verified liar and racist, let alone hero worship him, is beyond me. That they are allowed to get away with it over and over again is ridiculous. That people react to it rather than let the moderation team deal with it is what gets the threads closed.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 04:56 AM

Hansard records what is said in Parliament. No more, no less. So if the person speaking is biased - which of course they all are, all the time - it records that biased statement.

I frequently recommend referencing Hansard, but not because any individual passage is unbiased, but because that eliminates additional biases introduced during reporting.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 05:25 AM

VERIFIED RECORD RATHER THAN UNPROVEN ACCUSATION
RACISM ON A GRAND SCALE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 05:38 AM

Johnson's infamous lies

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 05:58 AM

HOW BRITAIN'S ALLIES SEE OUR PRIME MINISTER

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 08:09 AM

This gets more and more mindless and less and less like a discussion as he drags it on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 09:22 AM

Iains - gotcha...!!!!!

Me.. 3 days ago...

"punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 11:12 PM

Morning after Brecon.. tory majority down to 1...

Predictably tory propagandists will be ramping up the attack on Labour in response...

But, will do or die Boris be reading up on harakiri...???"

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Mossback
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 09:34 AM

The cabinet minister in charge of negotiating a new US trade deal met with a series of rightwing American thinktanks to discuss deregulation and the benefits of “Reaganomics”, new documents have revealed.

Liz Truss, the international trade secretary, had a number of meetings with libertarian groups that have championed parts of Donald Trump’s deregulatory agenda and tax cuts.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/04/liz-truss-trade-deal-food-safety-deregulation

REAGANOMICS??? Guess she's unaware that Reaganomics was a complete bogus cluster-fuck, eh?

Good to know ALL the idiots aren't in the U.S.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 09:39 AM

"Good to know ALL the idiots aren't in the U.S."
As we can see from our own resident Tommy Robinson/Trumpite - they tend to take their inspiration from across the pond
There's little sign of our great and good condemning Trupmp's open racism or his degeneracy, or his warmongering
Their heads are too far up The Don's arse to get around to such trivial issues as that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 09:56 AM

Bristol UK...

A city with a vibrant sense of political humour expressed in street art...


kiss



double kiss

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 10:32 AM

Thatcher's legacy
"Unsurprisingly, when Pinochet's most prominent defender, Margaret Thatcher came to office in 1979, diplomatic relations were soon restored and arms sales resumed. Declassified papers reveal that, by June 1982, her government had sold the dictatorship: two warships, 60 blowpipe missiles, 10 Hunter Hawker bomber planes, naval pyrotechnics, communications equipment, gun sights, machine guns and ammunition. A unique attempt at a British "ethical foreign policy" had ended."
IN FULL
THATCHER'S TAKE ON DEMOCRACY

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 10:42 AM

The way I look at it...

Life for me and mine should be a fair bit less shit under a Labour Govt...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 12:26 PM

I don't think bozza would be sticking his tongue in Trump's mouth, PFR. It is too firmly up his arse.

I like the second one though. What is there not to like about naked painted ladies snogging? :-)

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 12:37 PM

"It is too firmly up his arse."
Maabe they're both into Coprophilia
WOULDN'T SURPRISE ME IN THE SLIGHTEST
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 12:59 PM

THIS JUST ABOUT TICKS ALL THE BOXES
Never doubted it fo a minute
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 01:46 PM

From: Mossback
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 09:34 AM
. . . large snip removed . . .
Good to know ALL the idiots aren't in the U.S.


Not true. There are clearly some idiots in the United States, but it would be true to say that "not all the idiots are in the US".

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 01:50 PM

On FFS..

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 03:14 PM

Un autocorrect version...

...Oh, FFS

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 09:41 PM

A mod with an OCD tidying urge...!!!???

WE also lost intelligent [if I dare say so myself...] posts very pertinent to the subject matter...

It appears even part Jews aren't allowed to mention the word "Jew"..
Perhaps I'm not sufficiently Jewish for my views on Antisemitism & the Labour Party to qualify as acceptable...???

So either banish Iains, or at least stop deleting his posts that elicit
serious well considered responses;
which then also get deleted as collateral damage...

This is a crucially British intererst thread which does not require or benefit from
too heavy-handed interference by American mods...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 02:41 AM

" but it would be true to say that "not all the idiots are in the US"."
Nah - but most of our worst ones are safely tucked away in Westminster and won't mix with the likes of us
Much of the sickness of our society emanates from their desire to keep things like that - they're the bastards who set people against each other
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 04:58 AM

Talking of idiots in Westminster - and I definitely reject the 'safely' comment - here is the latest demonstration they haven't a clue that I have come across:

Most firms that export only to the EU do not have the paperwork they need to carry on their business after a no-deal Brexit, government figures suggest.

The Liberal Democrats said the statistics showed that no deal, which increasingly seems to be the outcome ministers think is most likely, would be a “wholly irresponsible political choice”.

But their analysis was disputed by the government, which claimed that, even though only a minority of firms have already acquired the right documentation, these are the firms responsible for the bulk of exports to the EU.
It is hard to know where to start with that government response. So I will just stick to pointing out that bulk of exports and significance of an export are different things. Being unable to import or export a key security item may have effects well beyond a shortage of Mars bars (to use Boris's example.)

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 10:20 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 02:49 PM

...
Probably - if we take the advice of the Mods and "ignore the troll"
...


I said I would remind you, Jim

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 10:40 AM

Trying to get back to topic, or at Brexit: I have been reading the fixed term Parliamenr Act (gripping stuff, I assure you) and while after a no confidence vote 14 days must elapse before a general election is automatically triggered, there seems no reason why Corbyn couldn't call a no-confidence vote in the morning, then toddle off to the palace in the afternoon with pockets stuffed with letters from the SNP, LibDem, Plaid Cymrun and others saying they have agreed to form an interim national unity government to address Brexit then hold a general election. There is no need for 14 days to elapse and I am sure the Speaker would not allow Boris to hold that up by preventing a vote of confidence in the unity government.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 11:03 AM

WE Brits need this discussion right now

True. What we do not need is incessant right-wing propaganda that has no purpose but to destabilise the discussion. This will, quite rightly, get removed. If comments pertaining to the right-wing propaganda is also removed then that is simply collateral damage. You cannot expect the moderators to differentiate between good and bad responses to trolling. Their job is unpaid, unappreciated and hard enough as it is. To help them to clean up the shit, we should not be smearing it about first.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 11:35 AM

DtG - I don't want to argue with you, you're one of the good guys..
But you're repeating something I politely disagreed with every other time...

I don't expect anything of mods,
but am at liberty to request they consider circumstances of a specific thread,
and that they delete sparingly with due consideration and respect
for the time and effort wasted by Jim and others
in their fight back against the bad guys...

I don't accept that collateral damage is justified as an automatic first response
in dealing with Iains...
It should be a more considered last last resort.

Mods can be more reasonable and restrained if they want to...

Ocassionally critisising their more zero tolerance methods, is by no means an attack on our hard worked mods...

Mods aren't infallible, and there was a time a decade ago during the 'rogue mod war'
when at least one of them seemed to be abusing the power...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 11:37 AM

Trying to get back to topic, or at Brexit: I have been reading the fixed term Parliament Act (gripping stuff, I assure you) and while after a no confidence vote 14 days must elapse before a general election is automatically triggered, there seems no reason why Corbyn couldn't call a no-confidence vote in the morning, then toddle off to the palace in the afternoon with pockets stuffed with letters from the SNP
The only thing stopping that would be that Boris would still be the Queen's Prime Minister. The automatic election is only triggered after 14 days as the existing Prime Minister (still Boris) has 14 days to try to bring together a government in which Parliament can have confidence.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 12:05 PM

The automatic election is only triggered after 14 days as the existing Prime Minister (still Boris) has 14 days to try to bring together a government in which Parliament can have confidence.

Not quite. The act very clearly says he has up to 14 days, not that he has 14 days. In the meantime others groups can propose new governments. It is not solely in the remit of the Prime Minister. As I read it.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 12:51 PM

Let me clarify the position. Iains's propaganda is being removed as it should be. If no one responds to it, nothing else will get deleted. I am more than happy for him to continue posting as long as the posts are his own work, are civil and are not just repititions of a mindless right-wing propaganda machine. By all means respond to messages that are his rather than those of the criminal blogger or the fascist ministry of misinformation. Just don't respond to the mindless tripe that 95% of his posts comprise of.

Surely it must be worth a try?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 12:53 PM

DtG - uncanny... you got your answer in a minute before I posted the question...!!!!!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 12:55 PM

My ESP kicked in :-)

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 01:06 PM

" I'm not a fan of 'safe spaces' by banning members, "
And I'm not a fab of people using this forum as a platform for extremism
It might be different if he engaged in discussion but he ignores what is being said and just posts blogs, mainly by a neo Nazi
Whenever he is seriously challenged he resorts to racist insulting as he just has
I wouldn't be unhappy to allow him to stay as an example of what he represents - he is a destructive troll who refuses to participate in this forum other than to use it
I only wish someone like Nigel would take part - he is far more intelligent and ready to argue - when he hangs around long enough
What Iains is doing is just downright effortless, thoughtless and destructive
Any moron can find a reliable blogger to mindlessly cut 'n paste from
Is that really why we're here ?
"Iains's propaganda is being removed"
Only when it is responded to - if nobody responded to it it would remain as a permanent extremist platform
Jim

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 01:11 PM

Only when it is responded to

Not true, Jim. It is being deleted full stop. Don't respond in the thread. If you wish to lodge a complaint, send one of the mods a PM.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 01:13 PM

"If you wish to lodge a complaint, send one of the mods a PM."
Last time I did I got a mouthful of abuse and was told we were all as bad as one another
Jim

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 01:38 PM

Not fully familiar with the jargon but as far as I can see all Iains is doing is tweeting this forum
Jim

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 01:46 PM

Jim - I can't be sure if you had chance to read my earlier post before it was deleted.
It refered to your now deleted post outing the history of a particular blogger...

here's a brief extract...

"Jim's response is a great example of vital evidence being brought into this thread,
that many would have otherwise been completely unaware of...

Sadly, that is the kind of positve material and links that also get deleted,
along with all the noxious propaganda that Jim is exposing
and resisting..."

Just a reminder, we are working independantly in the same direction...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 02:26 PM

Let's see
Below is an article linking Britain's Prime Minister's long term promoter with with one of Britain's most notorious ultra-right groups
Is this really the level the UK has sunk to in order to leave Europe ?
Jim Carroll


Tory student leader in 'racist’ party link: David Rose reports on a...
Rose, David
The Guardian (1959-2003): May 31. 1986:
ProQuesl Historical Newspapers: The Guardian and The Observer
A leader erf the Federation of Conservative Students wrote to an organiser of. the British National Party proposing Joint "dlrect action " to disrupt the meetings of leftwing subjects.
Secrecy, he emphasised, essential: “The Reds would simply go wild if they got to hear of a BNF-FCS link. I would personally be in danger of being expelled from the Conservative party"
The author of the letter is Mr Paul Delarte-Staines, the chairman of the federation’s 50-strong branch at the Humberside college of Higher Education. Mr Delarte-Staines. who is in his first year of a degree course- in business information studies, wrote on May 22 to Mr lan Walker, a BNT organiser in Hull.
David Rose reports on a secret attempt to form a pact with the British National Party
He was, he said, against several of the aims of the BNP, which campaigns for the repa¬triation of black citizens. Several of rta members have been convicted of offences under the Race Sections Act, and others for crimes of violence against ethnic minorities. Its leader, Mr John Tyndall, Is a former chairman of the National Front Mr Delarie-Staines' said he did not share the BNP view on. immigration: as a member of the Hanitarian " faction of the PCS he advocated the free movement of labour, albeit with the caveat that “you come here to work — or starve. ”
He went on: "I share a lot of your objectives. '* These In¬cluded a return to leadership, and statesmanahip, the aboli¬tion of the welfare state, and '"the elimination of Communism in Britain in the mass media, the trade unions, and the schoolroom.”
Mr Delaire-Staines continued:         
" Nevertheless, even though we have our differ¬ences, I know a lot of BNP people at college do support the FCS (some are members of the FCS). I can certainly envisage some degree of cooperation.
" For instance, we are moving away, from just the normal political debate and towards more direct action — anti-Communist slogans on bridges, disrupting the leftist meetings by posing as leftists and then causing trouble, ‘and also convincing individual leftists of the error of their ways.
“Perhaps members of the BNP would care to join us in our anti-leftist activities. We can arrange a meeting to dis¬cuss possible joint future activities. ’

Other examples of Mr Delaire Staines work reached the Guardian, including a number of songs'.
One entitled FCS Bootboys, reads:

"Gas them all, gas them all, the Tribune group trendies’ and all.
Crush Wedgwood Benn and make glue from his bones.
Burn the broad left in their middle class drone,
“Yes-we’re saying goodbye to the Left, as safe in their graveyards they rest.
'Cos we they’ll get no farther. We'll stop with murder, the bootboys of-FCS

In a letter to a friend, Mr Delairé'Staines said that he had been on a "community arts course — well, not exactly community arts, more spray- painting a. bridge at 3am. ' Quite Good fun really, ducking out of sight of passing police cars'.
Mr Delaire-Staines told, the Guardian that. he had not meant violence by direct action at leftist meetings, only "causing as much noise as possible”.
He said that he had tried to forge a link with the BNP because "to; share their anti-Communist view," He added: “'They're not. far- right They're Just racists/ they believe in one colour"
Mr John Barcow. the nations! chairman of FCS and a Lambeth councillor, said that Mr Delaire-Staines was “a bit silly. I wouldn’t hold it against him. I'm sure he'll grow out of it.
After hearing extracts from the letter to the BNP he added, "He's absolutely right that he’s in danger of being thrown out of the Conservative Party. ”
Mr James Goodman, the Conservative Central Office of' offcial responsibility for the FCS, said: "The evidence comes my way I will certainly look into it.”

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 19 - 10:19 AM

Harland and Woolf about to go into receivership - another British Industry
JOINS THE TITANIC with STILL MORE TO COME
Bet those about to be redunded are really looking forward to Brave New Brexit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Aug 19 - 10:29 AM

Interestingly enough, even The Guardian: Here does not appear to be blaming this on Brexit. The only mention of Brexit comes at the end of the article:
This latest shipyard closure underscores a wider British failure from the 1980s on. End of empire need not have meant an end of British shipbuilding. But it was allowed to happen. Tough, government-led decisions to target new commercial shipping markets for fishing vessels, ferries and cruise ships were never taken. Governments focused instead on naval needs alone; R&D defaulted to the defence agenda. The result is that a post-Brexit Britain would have no shipbuilding sector adapted to 21st-century markets. Instead, it would be closed for business.


And the comment in the last post: Harland and Woolf about to go into receivership - another British Industry It is not a "British industry" the Guardian makes it clear that the business is Norwegian owned.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 19 - 10:52 AM

So the shipyard is populated by hordes of Norwegians then, is it? I think we all know the sense in which that comment was made, Nigel. An industry that employs British workers. Anything else you need explaining, Nigel, you know where I am.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 19 - 11:04 AM

Norway...!!!???

Bloody Vikings... don't they ever stop invading and conquering our coastal towns...

But if we leave the EU, it'll be just us on our own against the Vikings again...!!!!!!!!

Who'll protect our monastries and women folks, if all we have in reserve is a tory Dad's Army...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 19 - 11:05 AM

"Here does not appear to be blaming this on Brexit. "
I'm not sure anybody is Nigel - but that doesn't alter the fact that a Britain "standing on it's own feet" is about to lose one of it major (and one of the last) British shipyards
Added to this, of course, is the overhanging threat to the Irish Peace agreement which is already being undermined by the effects and threatened effects that Brexit has already been responsible for.
I worked in the shipping industry for a time in Liverpool and was very quickly made aware of how shortage of work adversely affected the otherwse good relationship of the different religious communities - and that was way-way back before the troubles
You really can't keep dodging this issue and blaming others for the problems being caused
A decision by a minority of the British people as a whole is the sole have severely jeopardised the futures of both Britain and its neighbours
This needs to be discussed in those terms
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 19 - 01:14 PM

Off topic in the main, but my Irish passport arrived today!

Does anyone know whether the systems cope if I go into Ireland on my Irish passport (and so go in the faster queue) but return into the UK on my UK passport (and so go in the faster queue?)

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 06 Aug 19 - 04:18 PM

You have to enter and leave Ireland with your Irish passport and enter and leave the UK with your UK passport. Thats how it works with dual UK/Australian nationality anyway.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 19 - 04:24 PM

Thanks, David C. I don't think I would risk such an experiment anyway. Too much scope for   problems with enthusiastic border staff.

Although it is an Irish passport, I think of it more as a European passport: I am European as well as British, and am happy to do whatever is my power to stay both

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Aug 19 - 04:24 PM

"Here does not appear to be blaming this on Brexit. "
I'm not sure anybody is Nigel - but that doesn't alter the fact that a Britain "standing on it's own feet" is about to lose one of it major (and one of the last) British shipyards
Then why bring it up here in a discussion about "Labour - the party of Remain", although this seems to have become the default Brexit thread.


And it was you, and the Guardian, who described this as a British industry. I thought you knew better exactly what the difference is between Britain and UK.
Steve Shaw seems to be suffering from the same misunderstanding, while offering to explain it: So the shipyard is populated by hordes of Norwegians then, is it? I think we all know the sense in which that comment was made, Nigel. An industry that employs British workers. Anything else you need explaining, Nigel, you know where I am.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 19 - 06:07 PM

That particular piece of nitpicking was vexatious. A British industry can mean either a British-owned industry or an industry in the UK which overwhelmingly employs British citizens irrespective of who owns it. You are not interested in normal debate, Nigel, and contributors here are not bound to type nothing but legalese. You yourself are pretty easy to catch out, Nigel, as I've occasionally shown, but, quite frankly, the approach is infra dig for me. I have better things to do, but I do sometimes look out for mild entertainment here...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 06 Aug 19 - 06:40 PM

Anyway back to brexit and compo's machinations:
One line Labour are particularly trying to sell is on Boris’s background and supposedly ‘wealthy friends’, with Corbyn putting a post out on Saturday claiming “Boris Johnson and his millionaire friends won’t be affected by rising food prices in a No Deal Brexit“.

It does need pointing out of course that Jeremy Bernard Corbyn’s own personal net worth is reportedly a very tidy £3 million.
Thus continuing the proud tradition of revolutionary leaders being much wealthier than their loyal proletariat followers'
Others include: Ed Miliband with a £2.5m house in Dartford Park, London and his ex-deputy Harriet Harman who owns a £2.3m house in Dulwich.
Wealthy Labour members of Mr Corbyn’s inner circle include his chief aide Seumas Milne who has a £1.5m house in Richmond, shadow foreign secretary Hilary Benn with a £3m house in Chiswick and shadow justice secretary Lord Faulkner with a £17.5m mansion in Westminster. While shadow international development secretary Diane Abbott owns a £1m pad in Hackney and shadow defence secretary Emily Thornberry has a £3m home in Islington and Kier Starmer with a £1.4m home in Kentish Town.
I wonder how many Labour supporters realise how many Labour MPs are millionaires?

More unpalatable facts.
I wonder how long this post lasts before the snowflakes insist on its deletion with the aid of their tame mod?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 19 - 06:50 PM

A £1.5 million house in Richmond can be two-bedroom, Lord Haw-Haw. :-)

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 03:08 AM

Does it need pointing out that no MPs are likely to be affected by a no deal brexit yet those who care about their constituents more than themselves are still fighting it? Or that Corbyn, who is described as useless by his detractors, has managed to make more more money than his Tory counterparts? As wealth seems to be the measure of success amongst capitalists I guess this means that Corbyn is better than both May and Johnson?

Does it also need pointing out that, yet again, our resident propagandist has cut and pasted a large chunk of an article from the Daily Express rather than post anything original? Without even crediting his source?

Best just to ignore it but it is worth pointing out the obvious until such a time as the propaganda is deleted. I am happy for the responses to go as well.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 03:45 AM

”Does it also need pointing out that, yet again, our resident propagandist has cut and pasted a large chunk of an article from the Daily Express rather than post anything original? Without even crediting his source?”

It’s a perfect illustration of the depths he’s prepared to plumb in his deceit. Why anyone wastes their time and bandwidth responding is beyond my comprehension.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 04:19 AM

The argument that anything the cabal disagrees with is propaganda is getting rather old. It is time to change the record. And of course if people did not quote directly, or paraphrase material from the media, this thread could not exist.
The real argument here is the referendum result where leave won.
Where article 50 was voted for by 420 votes to 110
In the last election both labour and tory stood on leave tickets.
Time you all accepted you lost.(and Trump will win a second term)

Interesting news off the FT: McDonnell ruled out Labour supporting any sort of ‘national unity’ Government to try to stop No Deal that wasn’t led by Jeremy Corbyn.
That is one in the eye for grieve and co. Back to the blasted heath for them I am afraid. They may well betray everyone and vote for compo, but how many others would follow? In the ensuing election their careers would be dust.
Tic toc, on the home straight now!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 04:30 AM

"I am happy for the responses to go as well."
Totally agree (sez one of the worst offenders) "Loose lips sink ships" to borrow a wartime slogan
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 04:37 AM

but that doesn't alter the fact that a Britain "standing on it's own feet" is about to lose one of it major (and one of the last) British shipyards.
That is because it is cheaper to buy them overseas and EU regulations insist such contracts are put out to international tender, apart from warships

https://fullfact.org/economy/did-conservatives-refuse-support-6500-british-shipbuilding-jobs/

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 05:07 AM

If there was ever a time for parliament to be recalled this is surely it. If it could be done for the trivial matter of paying tribute to Thatcher it should be done now without delay. Johnson is all too aware that the timetable as it stands is on his side, even if an election has to be called. Arguably, we are in a far more dire situation for the country that we were for any other recent recall. Allowing four more weeks to tick away in a state of stasis may not be unconstitutional but it's bloody undemocratic. Of course, the Speaker can recall parliament only if the government asks him to. No need to ask why that won't happen.

Failing that, I wonder if the EU can insist unilaterally that we have another extension, perhaps if they're bombarded by petitioning from an ad hoc "progressive alliance" of MPs. It would be claimed by the Daily Mail as being undemocratic, of course, but Johnson being forced to go along with that would be evidence that he's serious about not leaving with no deal. Haven't looked into that...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 05:20 AM

”I wonder if the EU can insist unilaterally that we have another extension, perhaps if they're bombarded by petitioning from an ad hoc "progressive alliance" of MPs. It would be claimed by the Daily Mail as being undemocratic, of course, but Johnson being forced to go along with that would be evidence that he's serious about not leaving with no deal.”

That question was asked a few minutes ago on BBC News. According to a lady from the Institute of Government, they can’t - neither side can act unilaterally, there has to be an approach from one side, and agreement by the other.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 05:28 AM

Main backer of "Full Eact"
Omidyar Network is a self-styled "Propaganda investment firm," composed of a foundation and an impact investment firm. Established in 2004 by eBay founder Pierre Omidyarand his wife Pam
Just thought I'd mention it in passing, apropo of nothing
Jim

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 05:51 AM

Only buffoons try to discredit the message by attacking the messenger.
This has been pointed out innumerable times. but the same buffoon predictably always takes the bait

As Michelle would say: "Listen very carefully, I shall say zis only once"

https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/public-contracts/public-tendering-rules/index_en.htm

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 05:57 AM

Sky News were out with the cameras to doorstep Dominic Cummings this morning. Boris’s top adviser sportingly gave a brief but polite interview – considerably more so than many elected politicians. “Mr Grieve will see what he is right about…”

This is close on the heels of McDonnell rubbishing any idea of a National unity government.
Seems the wheels are coming off the bus containing Grieve's cunning plan. DEMOCRACY RULES!!!! Toc tic!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 06:13 AM

Some interesting comments from Murdoch's Times bumwipe on Johnson's take on democracy
A wonderful pictire is conjured up of Johnson being led into The Guildhall for a terminal haircut
Jim Carroll


JOHNSON’S THREAT TO DEFY A NO-CONFIDENCE VOTE
Sir, Further to your report “Johnson to defy any vote of no confidence”
Aug 6), if most MPs do not want a No-deal Brexit, or an election after October 31 that might produce it, they could resort to the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011. A vote of no confidence would give 14 days for an alternative government to be constructed; a separate resolution opposing prorogation would also be needed. If the Commons passed a motion of confidence in the new team within those two weeks Mr Johnson would have to resign. If, incredibly, he refused the Queen could dismiss him using her reserve prerogative power. She would want a prior Commons resolution, passed by a clear majority of MPs, nominating a new prime minister and cabinet, and stating the Brexit policy. The Queen could then install that administration.
Rodney Brazier
Emeritus professor of constitutional law, University of Manchester

Sir, It is a convention, and not part of any act, that the government has to resign if defeated in a confidence vote, and that a general election is the ultimate way in which a constitutional crisis can be resolved. It is also the case that the Supreme Court cannot enforce respect for conventions that are not incorporated in an act of parliament.
It is, however, also “only” a convention, not a law, that the Queen can act only on the advice of her ministers. It is “only” a convention that the Queen cannot dismiss her prime minister even if he is flouting the constitution. If the prime minister refused to respect the normal consequence of losing a confidence vote and if he sought to prevent both parliament and the electorate having a final say on no deal, he would create the gravest constitutional crisis since the actions of Charles 1 led to the Civil War.
I have great confidence that the prime minister will ignore the advice of Dominic Cummings. King Charles lost his head by flouting the constitution. Mr Johnson will wish to keep his, while some around him are, clearly, losing theirs.
Sir Malcolm Rifkind Former foreign secretary

Sir, You report that “constitutional experts” are warning that a refusal by the prime minister to resign should he lose a vote of confidence would risk the Queen being “dragged into politics”. These experts need to remind themselves that the Queen, though neutral in politics, has never in fact been “above” politics, as the dismissal of the Australian prime minister Gough Whitlam in 1975 demonstrated only too clearly. The UK is a constitutional monarchy rather than a parliamentary democracy. As such it is the Queen alone who appoints prime ministers and has the authority to dismiss them.
Professor Geoffrey Alderman University of Buckingham

Sir, Until the 17th century it was not unusual for people in positions of power to claim to be above the law. It was the temptation of kings. We have centuries of experience of telling kings, and their successors, that the law always has the last word, and finally controls the legality of all government acts through the courts. That is the meaning of the Rule of Law in liberal democratic societies. The Queen in parliament can change the law, and the courts can re-interpret the law but, until then, the law is the law.
Philip Allott
Trinity College, Cambridge

Sir, In suggesting that he would not respect a parliamentary vote of no confidence, Boris Johnson is acting like a dictator. Were we not told that the purpose of Brexit was to uphold the sovereignty of parliament? Whatever else inspired Leave voters, it was not an undemocratic and tyrannical destruction of British parliamentary power, as is now proposed.
Cynthia Hall Oxford

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 06:34 AM

Should the Queen be dragged in who is she most likely to support?
A democratic majority who voted for leaving the EU?
or a bunch of treasonous rebel MPs?

It really is a no brainer!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 07:27 AM

For what it is worth, I think it crazy for Labour to decline to take part in a unity government. It need only be one lasting a few days, sufficient to put legislation in place for an extension, and then to call a general election. Refusing to do so does, in the words of Rebecca Long-Bailey "give Boris some sort of get out of jail free card."

Reading more closely, though, the argument is not as much about whether there could be a unity government as about who leads it. Again, that would be a stupid thing over which to wreck the idea.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 07:36 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 06 Aug 19 - 06:07 PM

That particular piece of nitpicking was vexatious. A British industry can mean either a British-owned industry or an industry in the UK which overwhelmingly employs British citizens irrespective of who owns it. You are not interested in normal debate, Nigel, and contributors here are not bound to type nothing but legalese. You yourself are pretty easy to catch out, Nigel, as I've occasionally shown, but, quite frankly, the approach is infra dig for me. I have better things to do, but I do sometimes look out for mild entertainment here...

What part of 'British' do you not understand?
By your definition: A British industry can mean either a British-owned industry or an industry in the UK which overwhelmingly employs British citizens irrespective of who owns it.
Harland & Woolf is Norwegian owned
Its employees are predominantly from Northern Ireland (so not British)
So by your definition Harland & Woolf is not a British Industry.


contributors here are not bound to type nothing but legalese
No, but you don't have to continually type crap either.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 08:21 AM

And the inanity rolls on. Don't talk to me, Nige.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 09:05 AM

Everyone but the most vociferous pedant understands that a company with such a long track record in the UK as Harland and Woolf can and will be referred to as British. You are now nitpicking the difference between Britain, Great Britain, the British Isles and the United kingdom of Britain and northern Ireland. Look up the definition of "British Isles" then tell us that Harland and Woolf is not located there and is not a major employer in these isles. If all you can pick holes is is nomenclature then you must be short of decent arguments.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 11:48 AM

To have a unity government requires that the existing government is replaced. Could present a problem if they do not wish to go. Meanwhile tickety tock.
This is of rather more concern than the closure of an uncompetitive shipyard. After all closure is hardly a new event.Harland & Wolff established shipyards at Bootle in Liverpool, North Woolwich in London and Southampton. However, these shipyards were all eventually closed from the early 1960s when the company opted to consolidate its operations in Belfast.
The joint administrators of Harland and Wolff.had this to say:

"Founded in 1861, the Belfast-based company has in recent years specialised in wind energy and marine engineering projects.

"After a long sales process, in which a buyer could not be found, the business has been unable to continue trading due to having insufficient funds following the recent insolvency of its ultimate parent. This was Norway's Dolphin Drilling that according to the Financial Times filed for bankruptcy back in Jun 26, 2019.
No widgets and no cash = no company. The unions can sit in as much as they like, it will change nowt.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 01:20 PM

Vast empty ship yard buildings and yards
repurpose well as movie studio sound stages and back lots...

That's a positive for N.Ireland,
but only as long as they can attract more big productions now that G.O.T has finished...

How does the uncertainty of brexit help that venture flourish...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 01:37 PM

"Its employees are predominantly from Northern Ireland (so not British)"
I'm afraid if you said that in parts of Northern Ireland you'd find yourself kneecapped by the majority who regard themselves British
"The Northern Irish are British, both politically and geographically. Politically, because they are citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, for whom the generalised ethnonym is British.Jun 25, 2018"
I suggest you (do not) visit there
What on earth do you think a century of conflict has been about ?

The International nature of business has long removed the antiquated view you seem to hold
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 01:56 PM

A majority, Iains, is a majority in Parliament. In a parliamentary democracy, that is the only majority which matters.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 02:00 PM

"In a parliamentary democracy, that is the only majority which matters."
Now when worker band together to give their vies on something like workers rights or unemployment or Nuclear weapons or Apartheid they becme "rentamob scum" to people like our incumbent
He said it himself - those who aren't "successful" are to be pitied
The people's voice is only important whan it makes the RIGHT noises
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 02:00 PM

brexit might be a bit difficult for the Queen..

She'd have to be cautious about falling out with her German relatives...

We wouldn't want a repeat of last time...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 02:09 PM

"Its employees are predominantly from Northern Ireland (so not British)"

Harland and Wolff once employed more than 30,000 people and led the world in the production of cruise liners.

But it now employs just over 120, so it's demise is unfortunate for the remaining employees but hardly a major catastrophe that some would like to paint it. It also needs to be said that the The 22,000-tonne Anvil Point was the last vessel launched from the shipyard 16 years agoCanberra the last cruise liner was launched in 1960

"The Northern Irish are British, both politically and geographically.
This if true would suggest reunification is unlikely in the immediate future.

As for the assertion the company is/was British Mt Wolfe was a German!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 02:18 PM

A majority, Iains, is a majority in Parliament. In a parliamentary democracy, that is the only majority which matters.

That may well be put to the test. When parliament willfully defies the clearly stated wishes of the people wherein lies the democracy? With the people or a bunch of lowlife turncoat MPs?
A majority voted for brexit
A majority of MPs voted for article 50
Both parties entered a general election on a leave ticket.


Yet another no brainer and of course removing the incumbent PM could be a problem.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 02:29 PM

If we were still tied to every word [ no matter how narowly ] agreed by politicians
at a particular moment in time,
I could nip up to Bristol tomorrow to buy a slave...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 02:31 PM

Bit more time now
Mad Maggie coined the perfect phrase to sum up the people's voice when is sang off its own hymn sheet "The Enemy Within" -
She much preferred 'The Pinochette answer and was not afraid to say so - gawl luv 'er

It seems we can't remove the PM but he has the right to silence the voice of Parliament by suppressing it's vote - doesn't that perfectly sum up a dictatorship
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 02:32 PM

Even some politicians can over time and further developments
come to their senses and change their minds...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 02:59 PM

I would have expected better constructed arguments than I am seeing here. Leave won the referendum. The only reason it has not yet occurred is because of MPs who put their sinecure above honesty and loyalty.
Where was their honesty and integrity when they signed up for Brexit?
Where was their honesty when the stood for re-election?
where was their honesty to their electorate? They are all conniving shysters putting their security of income above all else.
Those fighting brexit need to understand the majority will not take further frustration of the implementation of brexit lying down.

Just remember you lost. If you wish to post on the subject of frustrating brexit do not come up with tripe about a dictatorship. It portrays you as fresh out of the kindergarten or like one of my kids at two and a half having a screaming tantrum in a supermarket. You cannot get your own way so throw a paddy
The enemy of democracy is the majority posting here that simply refuse to accept that they lost. Constantly deleting my posts does not alter that fact one iota.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 03:10 PM

I have no more certainty about what will happen between now and the end of Octber than anyone else (and definitely less than some.)

But it is possible that Brexit is stopped or delayed further. If so, then Those fighting brexit need to understand the majority will not take further frustration of the implementation of brexit lying down sounds very threatening. Especially remembering what happened to Jo Cox.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 03:46 PM

Let's hope any brexit fanatics making threats now are being monitored by security services...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 03:46 PM

It isn't a question of who won or lost. It is a question of what is best for the country and its people. And those like me who believe that this is to remain in the EU have a duty to fight for such an outcome.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 04:08 PM

I've had the exact same thoughts, DMcG.

David, please don't respond to Iains. A few of us here are guilty of keeping him going by rising to his bait. Several of us have been informed that the mods are seriously on his case, but they tell us that we weaken the case by responding. Not just you I'm addressing here. Anyone who feels the ire when you see his stupid postings, just remember that it's only us select few that are reading them...He really doesn't matter...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 04:36 PM

It is only a select few on this forum that think they have a godgiven right to dictate what arguments may be presented. You just cannot accept that democracy voted to leave the EU. That it sticks in your craw and you refuse to accept it is not my problem. Patting yourselves on the back by conspiring to have a mod delete most of my posts merely demonstrates you cannot accept that my view is that of the majority that voted for brexit. You merely demonstrate your own insecurities by insisting my posts are deleted, simply because you cannot even convince yourselves of the validity of your counter arguments.
To label my links as propaganda is really quite asinine. The facts can be checked from multiple sources.
It would be more accurate to call your arguments propaganda because they are indefensible and are proposed as an attempt to thwart democracy. Again the majority share my viewpoint. You should know by now that being a leftard does not confer either credibility or validity to your arguments. The more you squawk the more you corroborate my observations. Forming a little like minded gang to bully your way to dominance on this forum actually means jackshit in the big wide world. Prepare for disappointment.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 05:10 PM

Iains, I completely disagree with your views, but what I believe is

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine in First Principles of Government (1795)

If this continues to happen - deletions based only on disagreement with you - send a PM or an email to Max. He doesn't approve. Personally, it would just be easier to close threads where it continues, but then, I find the fighting (will not deign to call it "debate") a complete and disagreeable use of Mudcat's bandwidth.

Thank you. My involvement related to biased deletions ends here.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Mossback
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 05:23 PM

I have a better quote for you, Jeri, re: Iains:

'How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of Negroes?'

          -- Samuel Johnson

Think on it.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 05:41 PM

mod fight...!!!

So.. Iains is now causing splits between mods...

I'll just be a bit of a dick and remind every one I've always been consistently against deleting...

I've never agreed with it... [except in extreme cases...]

Let folks be forever accountable and judged by the words they post...
no brushing it under the carpets...

Safe spaces are detached from reality...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 05:58 PM

Thank you for your response Jeri.
I have just read an article in the spectator on Labour's second in command. It is in a somewhat similar vein but sadly deadly serious. .It goes far beyond muting vocal opposition


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/will-john-mcdonnell-lock-tories-up-if-labour-wins-the-next-election/

Scary stuff indeed

“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”
? John Milton

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Mossback
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 06:11 PM

Ya know, Jeri, if you read a little more deeply into Thomas Paine's writings - age of enlightenment & rationality & all that - you'll discover that he never equated fact with fiction or reality with arrant bullshit.

Nor did he apologize for or excuse those who disseminated either of the latter.

Get a grip, girl.