Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 08:35 AM

"Jim Carroll just has to disagree with anything anyone who can occasionally"
Rather that tsay why I agree why not concentrate on what I say Muskett ?
"He wasn't ever pitch perfect and could never have been a classical singer"
We have a very early recording of Ewan singing classically - a piece called, 'The Death of Hector' made for the BBC shortly after he joined them in the late thirties
He was good enough for it to have been broadcast
His vocal range was not limited - he made a great ob of 'The Flying Cloud' and 'The Sheffield Apprentice' without effort - both among the rangiest in the folk repertoire
I've never had a problem handling most songs I've tried (I have 300 songs on my list) - - I can no longer manage Ewan's version of 'Sheffield' so I've had to find another one
Flying Cloud was among my first big songs - five years ago I found I'd lost it so I worked on it using MacColl's voice exercises and got it back

If we ever get around to to discussing his work fully you might realise that rather than 'learning anything as a playwrite", he and Litlewood and later Newlove evolved their own technique based on Laban (sound production) and Stanislavski (a theatre technique where actors took their own experiences and emotions to inform the parts they performed rather than evolving a performance technique, which is the standard approach of formal acting
The technique can be found in an excellent little book by Stanislavsi, 'An Actor Prepares'

You're just snatching statements that you have no evidence for out of the air and getting things wuildly wrong - that's what makes arguing with you useful
Jim

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,some bloke
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 05:27 AM

That bloke meant what he put. Jim Carroll just has to disagree with anything anyone who can occasionally be critical of MacColl puts out, even if said critic is pointing out an actual positive.

I say it again. His voice exuded the emotion of the sentence he was phrasing in song. He learned it as a playwright for voicing his actors and put it in his songs, even when he tried to be deadpan in delivery, his crafting of the words betrayed the emotion.

It's one of the nice things about his singing. He wasn't ever pitch perfect and could never have been a classical singer. His vocal range was limited. He was louder when singing low and quieter when singing high. (and yes, I have been sound engineer at two concerts of theirs,) but and this is a big but. I admire the passion and display of emotion in his voice.

It's a pity that Jim Carroll can't hear music. Saying it's just about the words is like admiring Constable for the grade of sable in his brushes.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Phillip
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 03:46 AM

Perhaps that bloke meant figuratively?

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 03:27 AM

I agree with SOME BLOKE

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 02:58 AM

"You can tell from his voice whether he is smiling, frowning or in anger"
No you can't - Ewan developed a technique to produce tones internally - part of what the Critics Group was about
Bert's 'smile' was a lazy short-cut of the type used by traditional singers in various parts of the world - immediately effective, but limited
Externally Ewan used the cupped hand to keep in tune and the back-to-front sitting position for relaxation - all these are variations of other techniques used elsewhere
Jim

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 11:57 AM

I'll say one thing about his actual singing.

You can tell from his voice whether he is smiling, frowning or in anger. He can sound kind, passionate or in narration. It's a skill worth having and he had it.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 04:45 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHPYnRT61ds ewan joined by bert

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 20 - 02:55 AM

He was a bit - didn't detract from his work on sea songs though - Shanties from the Seven Seas remains the most important descriptive work on the subject in my opinion and the much neglected 'Sailortown' carries a great deal of background information which I still find helpful for both singing and understanding them
The best of these people had weaknesses which some people use to undermine the important things they had to say - Ewan, Bert and 'Dear Cecil' are prime examples
Jim

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 May 20 - 01:29 AM

that is interesting,Hugill sounds like a reactionary.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 03:54 AM

"excellent song"
It is Dick, and it's no surprise that it's among the most popular of MacColls songs among The Travellers - we heard it sung in a few sessions we were in with them
The way it was used on the Radio Ballad, alternating the verses with talk by The Travellers, illustrates the point I has making of how Ewan used the speech of the people he wrote about to make his best songs
THIS IS AMONG MY FAVOURITES - I sing it whenever I get the opportunity now
The subject, Ben Bright, was a retired (sort of) Merchant seaman who was 'discovered' working as an escapologist's assistant on London Bridge
He had sailed under sail and worked as a 'Shellback' (a sailor who has no home ashore) for most of his working life
He was also a 'class conscious' humanitarian who jumped ship in the 'Hungry Thirties' and joined the 'Wobblies', (International Workers of the World') in California, working as a Trades Union Militant, along with T. Bone Slim and Elizabth Gurley Flynn, with the fruit pickers
How unusual this was among sailors at the time was illustrated by the somewhat cp-doffing Stan Hugill who described the I.W,W, as "The I won't workers"   
Hugill knew Ben and didn't think much of his activities
James Madison Carpenter recorded songs from Ben when he was in Swansea
Ewan and Peg had been recording songs from him for a month or so in North London, when they turned up at his 'digs' to find that he had taken a job as a deckhand on a ship bound for Australia - he was nearly 80 then
They got a last card from him a few months later - he was working on a coaster 'Down Under'   
The found out later that what had inspired Ben to go back to sea was when, he got into a blazing row with two 'City Gents' on a London bus, who were declaring loudly that the striking binmen should be "thrown in jail"
Someone well worth a song
Jim

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 20 - 03:24 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLnvwPk7-u0
excellent song

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 20 - 03:28 AM

That's one of Ewan's few tunes that was used unchanged - he heard it sung by elderly women on a holiday in Sicily (we have the recording)

In my opinion, Ewan's best songs were those he made using recorded actuality taken from the people who were recorded for the radio ballads and media programmes
A batch of them from the unbroadcast film, 'The Irishmen', Peggy gave us when he died remain under-sung - all based on talking to Irish Navvies - the only one that made it out of the lot of them was 'Tunnel Tigers'
I began to learn them when I realised how they related to the stories my father used to tell about his life on the rods - a great way to relate to your songs
Jim

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 20 - 03:16 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sseyUtOvetA very appropriate and touching

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 20 - 05:56 AM

Back now after 24 hours of no Internet - one of the wonders of rural life in the West of Ireland
Keep up the good work Dick
Jim

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 May 20 - 03:58 AM

As regards his own songs, I have yet to hear them sung better than by the man himself.
when he sang narrative ballads he rarely let instrumental flights of fancy interrupt the flow and story of the song.
Bert understood this about accompaniment too

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 20 - 02:57 PM

north sea holes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7wJxRl2n0s
Ewan MacColl
Come all you gallant fishermen that plough the stormy sea,
The whole year round on the fishing grounds
On the Northern Minch and the Norway Deeps,
On the banks and knolls of the North Sea Holes
Where the herring shoals are found

It's there you'll find the Norfolk boys and the lads from Peterhead,
There's Buckie chiels and men from Shields,
On the Northern Minch and the Norway Deeps,
On the banks and knolls of the North Sea Holes
Where the herring shoals are found

From Fraserborough and Aberdeen, from Whitby, Yarmouth Town,
The fleet's away at the break of day
To the Northern Minch and the Norway Deeps,
To the banks and knolls of the North Sea Holes
Where the herring shoals are found

It's off with a boiler full of steam and your engine spic and span
To fish the grounds the North Sea round
And fish and knolls and the North Sea Holes
And try your luck at the North Shields Gut
With a catch of a hundred cran

No need to wait for the wind and tide, you're the master of the sea,
Come calm or squall, just shoot and haul
And fill the hold with the fish to be sold
And steam ahead for the curing shed
And the buyers on the Yarmouth quay

Come all you gallant fishermen that plough the stormy sea,
The whole year round on the fishing grounds
On the Northern Minch and the Norway Deeps,
On the banks and knolls of the North Sea Holes
Where the herring shoals are found

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 20 - 11:44 AM

A bit of a diversion but are people awate of THIS
I have the hardback but am always happy to have a digitied copy
Jim

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 20 - 06:14 AM

i think he sings the ballad of accounting   very well. i think he sings his own songs extrenely well

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 20 - 05:48 AM

A Ewan translation
We used to do this along with The adult version of 'The Cruel Mother, the kids version, 'Weela, Weela. Walya - used to bring the house down
Jim

CONCERNING THE INFANTICIDE, MARIE FARRER by Bertolt Brecht
Marie Farrer, born in April,
No marks, a minor, rachitic, both parents dead,
Allegedly up to now without police record,
Committed infanticide, it is said,
As follows: in her second month, she says,
With the aid of a barmaid, she did her best
To get rid of her child with two douches,
Allegedly painful but without success.
But you, I beg you, check your wrath and scorn,
For man needs help from every creature born.

She then paid out, she says, what was agreed
And continued to lace herself up tight.
She also drank liquor with pepper mixed in it
Which purged her but did not cure her plight.
Her body distressed her as she washed the dishes,
It was swollen now quite visibly.
She herself says, for she was still a child,
She prayed to Mary most earnestly.
But you, I beg you, check your wrath and scorn,
For man needs help from every creature born.

Her prayers, it seemed, helped her not at all.
She longed for help.
Her trouble made her falter and faint at early Mass.
Often drops of sweat
Broke out in anguish as she knelt at the altar.
Yet until her time came upon her
She still kept secret her condition.
For no one would believe such a thing could happen,
That she, so unenticing, had yielded to temptation.
But you, I beg you, check your wrath and scorn,
For man needs help from every creature born.

And, on that day, she says, when it was dawn,
As she washed the stairs, it seemed a nail
Was driven into her belly.
She was wrung with pain.
But still she secretly endured her travail.
All day long while hanging out the laundry,
She wracked her brains until she got it through her head
She had to bear the child, and her heart was heavy.
But you, I beg you, check your wrath and scorn,
It was very late when she went to bed.
She was sent for again as soon as she lay down.
Snow had fallen and she had to go downstairs.
It went on till eleven. It was a long day.
Only at night did she have time to bear.
And so, she says, she gave birth to a son.
The son she bore was just like all the others.
She was unlike the others but for this
There is no reason to despise this mother,
You to, I beg you, check your wrath and scorn,
For man needs help from every creature born.

With her last strength, she says, because
Her room had now grown icy cold, she then
Dragged herself to the latrine and there
Gave birth as best she could (not knowing when)
But toward morning. She says she was already
Quite distracted and could barely hold
The child for snow came into the latrine
And her fingers were half numb with cold.
But you, I beg you, check your wrath and scorn,
For man needs help from every creature born.

Between the latrine and her room, she says,
Not earlier, the child began to cry until
It drove her mad so that, she says,
She did not cease to beat it with her fists
Blindly for some time till it was still.
And then she took the body to her bed
And kept it with her there all through the night.
When morning came she hid it in the shed.
But you, I beg you, check your wrath and scorn,
For man needs help from every creature born.

Marie Farrer, born in April,
An unmarried mother, convicted, died in
The Meissen penitentiary.
She brings home to you all men's sin.
You, who bear pleasantly between clean sheets
And give the name "blessed" to your womb's weight,
Must not damn the weakness of the outcast,
For her sin was black but her pain was great.
Therefore, I beg you, check your wrath and scorn,
For man needs help from every creature born.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 20 - 05:43 AM

Peggy alternated on auto-harp occasionally on Accounting (great song) - in my opinion, more effective
I agree about Brecht Phillip - I saw Arturo Ui performed at the Abbey in Dublin some years ago- still a theatrical fist in the face and still very apposite
Jim

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Phillip
Date: 24 May 20 - 05:32 AM

That youtube posting has a claim that the best version is by Colm Reagan and Kerry Sansom, which I cannot find online. I prefer the version by The Exiles, with its almost stentorian take on the song, which benefits from that lack of subtlety for me. It becomes, the singing that is, the aural equivalent of huge stage posters in a Brecht play.

There was also a contribution in this thread which implied that Brechtian thatre was a thing of the past, and that it was a bad thing. Not for me. I think it's still highly productive today even if its didacticism falls on cloth ears at times. Not is it out of fashion. In the past fice years perhaps I have seen productions of Arturo Ui, Mother Courage, The Threepenny Opera, The Good Person of Sezuan and The Caucasian Chalk Circle. From local thatres to The New Vic and the National Thatre, with no less than Fiona Shaw as Mother Courage.

The Exiles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKVIQ_IXTO0

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 20 - 04:12 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eY0bJzKxA8

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 20 - 01:19 PM

A friend of ours who has just moved back to England (Sussex), has been in contact to ask advice on a book he is working on, 'Jimmy and Joan', an account of the work done by Ewan and Joan Littlewood
Jim

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Phillip
Date: 23 May 20 - 11:49 AM

Dulcimer, I think

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 20 - 11:44 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joNTYxROyGo good singing, diction and all the words clearand level of voice is higher than the accopaniment, as it should be perhaps too much instrumentation there was a high instrumrent i found annoying it was not the concertina

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 20 - 05:43 AM

welocme back. jim

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Phillip
Date: 23 May 20 - 05:04 AM

Tangential to this thread, but some might find it interesting - a lecture by Jean Newlove

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMyqa-TI7I4

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 20 - 04:07 AM

Mornin' all
Jim

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 20 - 03:20 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPaQDjmEwQ0 broomfield hill, i do not like the tone of his voice here.
cyril poacher version here i find reasier to understand possibly because i am used to suffolk accenthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7PSNKX5g9o

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: RTim
Date: 22 May 20 - 11:04 AM

According to Mainly Norfolk - Sweet Kumadie is played by Alf Edwards..
Recording is on - English and Scottish Folk Ballads
A.L. Lloyd, Ewan MacColl

Topic Records 12T103 (LP, UK, 1964)

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 20 - 01:14 AM

it is peggy her touch is lighter but influenced by alf

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 20 - 01:11 AM

this is good not sure if the concertina player is alf or peggyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxFiN30OI9Q ifind it intersting to compare it to this an example of songs evolving https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQLLRQNaVxg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQLLRQNaVxg

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 20 - 07:43 PM

Under the circumstances I've been apprised of, and which I thoroughly disapprove of, it could be a good idea not to address Jim just now. Cheers.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 21 May 20 - 07:03 PM

well, i for one, feel very sorry you feel like that Jim. You obviously know a lot about this subject.

I think we have to make allowances. Some people like these strong and vigorous discussions and say their bit however ignorant they are. i suppose they reason that they've got the vote and their opinion is as much value as anybody else.

What they forget is that they are talking about situations and people that some of us are intimately concerned with. They have no concept of the depth of the hurt they cause, and they will gird their loins in self righteousness to assert their right to insult and abuse.

Because - they are correct. they have a democratic right to make their statements , and the mods must preserve that.

Ewan MacColl made a huge impact on many of us who see ourselves part of the folk music world. Many people (particularly stateside) whom Ewan wouldn't really reckon to be folksingers. What I am saying is, that his legacy affects people who would never be body and soul disciples.

he was influential. he deserves your stewardship of his memory. try to see in context those who have awarded themselves a licence to talk tripe. try not to let it hurt you.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 21 May 20 - 11:20 AM

I thought it was SOP to warm up one's voice before a performance. It seems to be common sense. If stage lights are involved in a performance, the stage area is made somewhat warmer by them, so often people will leave their stringed instruments in the area so as to acclimate the strings. Heat expands things and cold contracts them. Much the same with vocal cords (which are muscle tissue). It also prepares the voice to be agile without straining the cords. If one's cords are still stretching while one is singing, then note control becomes much more difficult and requires more 'push' from the chest area as opposed to the stomach area, so warm ups should be part of the pre-performance ritual. If there is no area/room for the singers to exercise their pipes, then use a bathroom. Besides, bathrooms make us all sound better ;-)

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 20 - 09:44 AM

i understand that some of his ideas included preparing 0neself for performance an idea that other people also took seriously such as prof alexander. Ewan thought it was important to warm ones voice up with vocal exercises similiar to that which opera singers do, in my opinion this is a good idea this is something that i do because i wish to have a pleasant tone to my voice for as long as it is possible., and because i do not wish to damage my vocal chords.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 20 - 08:40 AM

I would dearly loved to take part in discussion on both the Ewan and Bert threads, but as I have just learned that "Lloyd's singing, like MacColl's, is a matter of taste. But idiots like Jim Carroll get all peeved when people criticize them" according to a moderator, I feel that any serious discussion fro me is out of the question
I would like to set the record straight though
I loved Ewan's singing but that is my taste - I have never become "peeved" at criticism of his singing - I have merely stated my own feelings
I have become angry when I felt Ewan's character was being maligned, as all too often happens, and have said so in as many words
Ewan was a dear friend and to some degree a mentor who generously shared his knowledge and experience with me, Pat and many more lesser experienced and lesser talented younger singers

I have desperately been trying to get some of his ideas discussed rather than his politics, his name-change, his accent.... and all the other froth that prevents serious discussion of him as an artist - I was suspended for trying to do so not so long ago - people wanted to talk about his politics again

Ewan has been dead for more than three decades now and is no longer able to answer for himself, it is high time that that was remembered - as Peggy requested in a letter to 'The Living Tradition Magazine, it is time he was "allowed to rest in peace"
I was hoping to try once again to discuss Ewan as a theorist on this forum, but recent events make that unlikely
My feeling towards Bert's singing is mixed, but like Ewan's, I find his contribution to my life as a singer, an audience member, and a researcher immeasurable

Unless we are allowed to discuss singers such as these vigorously and fully without the threat of interventions such as suspensions and deletions hanging over us, I fear that will never be possible
I'll leave you to it for now and see what happens (or if this posting survives long enough for people to read it)
Keep safe all
Jim

---

Keep your personal shit out of the threads and talk about the subject of discussion, Jim. That's all we want you to do. Is that too much to ask? We want to talk about Ewan MacColl in this thread, not about Jim Carroll.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 20 - 04:41 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlJ6P9EkoWw a great song well sung

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 20 - 04:26 PM

she couldn't spell either

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 May 20 - 04:05 PM

My sister knitted me an Arran sweater and she's from St Helens.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 04:05 PM

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 20 May 20 - 12:16 PM

I think folk clubs were primarily an English construct in the 1950/60s, Dick. But I could be wrong. exactly my point where there was no revival it is not needed to use the term revival ,furthermore people judge the singing on their merits just as you do if you do not like a revival singer or a source singer that is your prerogative.
why should source singers be judged differntly.
in ireland people just judge the singer on their merit not on their label. this is a music forum it is good to be able to discuss music during the lockdown here is shoals of herring
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ov81aogaxg

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 20 May 20 - 03:41 PM

Sorry to be pedantic Steve, but "Aran" sweaters, from the Aran islands in Ireland, not Arran, in Scotland. A common mistake.
Carry on.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 20 May 20 - 03:04 PM

what is to be gained by putting Ewan's singing under the microscope.

he did his best to perform and present songs.

I suppose if anything , he sounds very determinedly to be virile - which in totality comes over as a bit butch - but he was a theatrical remember, so that was okay. Its how that generation did Shakespeare.

No Derek Jacobi, or Simon Russell Beale in those days.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:50 PM

do you mean adapting your 'product' to suit the audience- does that include your repertoire?- with all his faults MacColl would never have done that.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:27 PM

Hi Brian
Sounds like an interesting project. I think just about everyone who has ever performed in front of an audience has consciously or in some cases unconsciously changed their persona in some way. It almost goes with the job as it were, wearing of seamen's caps, Arran sweaters, old-fashioned waistcoats, adopting a different accent, changing your voice in some way, playing up to audience perception, altering your chorus or speed of singing to accord with audience, the list is endless. Other genres perhaps even moreso, cowboy hats, dress suits, gypsy costume, gaiters, garish t-shirts, Hawaiian shirts etc. The dancers and mummers have always done it, so why not the singers?

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 12:51 PM

exactly, it did not have to be revived the music in the uk in england inparticular accoringto maccoll and lloyd and others needed revivng. most of the singers clubs are unaccompanied singing and they are few and far between one in cork city two in dublin, maybe one or two others

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 12:27 PM

"nobody in ireland refers to source singers or revival singers t"
No theey don't - they refer to them as Sean Nós (old sty;e) singers
It used to refer to Irish language singers - nowadays its all the source singers
"there is no folk club circuit in ireland "
I thought that was true but it's not strictly accurate
There were clubs - years ago we went (with Bob Blair) to see Peggy Seeger in one of the older ones in Athlone
Dublin had a magnificent one in Caple Street - 'The Tradition Club'
I now know there were others
The Goílin in Dublin says it isn't restricted ut it is overwhelmingly folk and the newest 'The Night Before Larry Got Stretched', in The Cobblestone is almost exclusively folk
The Singing Circles have taken the place of the old clubs - most 'anything goes' but some heavily folk oriented - depends on who turns up.
I know there are several in the N.E. Counties
The reson you haven't heard the tem revival is probably because there's a finer distinction between the two here largely because of the continuation of the music
Jim

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 12:16 PM

I think folk clubs were primarily an English construct in the 1950/60s, Dick. But I could be wrong.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 12:08 PM

there is no folk club circuit in ireland i have never heard anyone use the term revival singers for singers in ireland

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 12:02 PM

nobody in ireland refers to source singers or revival singers that i have ever heard of or differentioated between them the term has never been used in my presence sorry jim, furthermore unlike the uk folk revival there is no circuit of folk clubs