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Origins: What is this MacColl coal mining song?

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(origins) Lyr req: The War Game (MacColl) (6)
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GUEST,Brian_M 08 Sep 23 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,RJM 08 Sep 23 - 12:52 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Sep 23 - 02:19 PM
Reinhard 08 Sep 23 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,Brian_M 08 Sep 23 - 03:12 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Sep 23 - 05:30 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Sep 23 - 05:32 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Sep 23 - 05:44 PM
r.padgett 09 Sep 23 - 02:09 AM
Steve Gardham 09 Sep 23 - 10:11 AM
Steve Gardham 09 Sep 23 - 10:15 AM
Steve Gardham 09 Sep 23 - 10:17 AM
GUEST 10 Sep 23 - 03:47 PM
GUEST 11 Sep 23 - 07:16 AM
GUEST,RJM 12 Sep 23 - 04:16 AM
GUEST,Brian_M 15 Sep 23 - 03:34 PM
GUEST 15 Sep 23 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,Sandra Kerr 19 Sep 23 - 01:59 PM
cnd 19 Sep 23 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,maeve 19 Sep 23 - 03:16 PM
Helen 19 Sep 23 - 04:38 PM
Robert B. Waltz 19 Sep 23 - 08:12 PM
Steve Gardham 20 Sep 23 - 07:33 AM
GUEST 20 Sep 23 - 01:17 PM
Dave Sutherland 20 Sep 23 - 01:33 PM
Steve Gardham 20 Sep 23 - 03:05 PM
GUEST,Brian_M 20 Sep 23 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,RJM 21 Sep 23 - 01:29 AM
GUEST,RJM 21 Sep 23 - 02:00 AM
GUEST,Brian_M 21 Sep 23 - 04:45 PM
GUEST,Brian_M 21 Sep 23 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,RJM 22 Sep 23 - 01:48 AM
Tattie Bogle 23 Sep 23 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,RJM 23 Sep 23 - 12:44 PM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 24 Sep 23 - 04:54 AM
Tattie Bogle 29 Sep 23 - 07:21 PM
Dave Sutherland 11 Oct 23 - 07:20 AM
Joe Offer 07 Nov 23 - 04:58 PM
GUEST,RJM 08 Nov 23 - 02:17 AM
GUEST,RJM 08 Nov 23 - 10:47 AM
Helen 08 Nov 23 - 03:05 PM
Helen 08 Nov 23 - 03:27 PM
Helen 09 Nov 23 - 03:24 AM
GUEST,RJM 09 Nov 23 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,RJM 08 Sep 23 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,Brian_M 08 Sep 23 - 03:12 PM
GUEST 10 Sep 23 - 03:47 PM
GUEST 11 Sep 23 - 07:16 AM
GUEST,RJM 12 Sep 23 - 04:16 AM
GUEST,Brian_M 15 Sep 23 - 03:34 PM
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Subject: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST,Brian_M
Date: 08 Sep 23 - 12:32 PM

I was watching the documentary "The Coal War" from BBC Panorama on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m3Cvw5Ybmg

At 4:40 and 5:30, snippets of a song are heard. The lyrics are as follows:
    ""I'm going down, although I am a Durham lad brought up in busty coal.

    I'm going down 'cause here the seams are all worked out and I don't want the dole.

    I'm going down to Nottingham good prospects are my goal.

    I'm going down although it grieves me sore to leave the town and folk I know.

    I'm going down because I am a miner born, I'll stay a miner still."

Comments on the video suggest that it is Ewan McColl singing, but I've not been able to get a title. It's a beautiful song, and I'd love to be able to hear the full version if such a thing exists, but maybe it was something that the singer just improv'd or something, as the lyrics sound like they're contemporary to the events shown in the documentary. But if anyone has any info, it would be most appreciated.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 08 Sep 23 - 12:52 PM

it is Ewan, alright. i will contact jim carroll to see if he knows


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Sep 23 - 02:19 PM

Very likely from The Radio Ballads series, 'The Big Hewer' available on CD. I have some of the Radio Ballads but not this one. As Dick says Jim will know and you can get him yourself on Facebook.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: Reinhard
Date: 08 Sep 23 - 02:56 PM

I thought so at first too, Steve, but I can't find these words in the Big Hewer transcript.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST,Brian_M
Date: 08 Sep 23 - 03:12 PM

Also had a quick scan through that album and couldn't find the song in question. Each of the Radio Ballads volumes are on the Internet Archive, in case that's not already known.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Sep 23 - 05:30 PM

Reinhard, I don't have your email address. Can you PM me it please.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Sep 23 - 05:32 PM

I'll have a quick check in Lloyd.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Sep 23 - 05:44 PM

Not in 'Come all ye bold miners'. Probably too recent. Are you sure it's Ewan singing? Gez Lowe wrote quite a few good mining songs.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: r.padgett
Date: 09 Sep 23 - 02:09 AM

Certainly sounds like Ewan singing and a long time ago ~ so unlikely to be Jez Lowe ~ very likely written by Ewan

Ray


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Sep 23 - 10:11 AM

Not in MacColl's 'Shuttle and Cage' either.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Sep 23 - 10:15 AM

Not in his 'Personal Choice' which is mostly Sc Trad.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Sep 23 - 10:17 AM

Not in the MacColl & Seeger Songbook either.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 03:47 PM

I'm guessing it was recorded some time around the late 50s, given the circumstances that are being sung about.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 07:16 AM

If it was on 'Panorama' they would have had to obtain clearance, so they will know (unless the BBC have wiped the tapes:)).


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 04:16 AM

contact Peggy Seeger


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST,Brian_M
Date: 15 Sep 23 - 03:34 PM

I've contacted Ewan McColl's website. Maybe they'll have further information on the song.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 23 - 04:43 PM

GOOD IDEA


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Subject: Origins: Request for information re: miner's song
From: GUEST,Sandra Kerr
Date: 19 Sep 23 - 01:59 PM

I've been asked by Peggy Seeger if I could find any information about a song which Ewan MacColl sang on a Panorama documentary called The Coal War, some time in the 80's. We don't have a proper title but I do have the lyrics:
    "I'm going down, although I am a Durham lad brought up in busty coal.
    I'm going down 'cause here the seams are all worked out and I don't want the dole.
    I'm going down to Nottingham good prospects are my goal.
    I'm going down although it grieves me sore to leave the town and folk I know.
    I'm going down because I am a miner born, I'll stay a miner still."

I know there had been some discussion about this piece before on Mudcat, but am unable to find it, so apologies for this request. I'd be very grateful if any one has anything to contribute. I have already been in touch with Jez Lowe and Ed Pickford who have made useful contributions to the search, but nothing concrete yet.
Many thanks and kind regards, Sandra


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Subject: RE: Origins: Request for information re: miner's song
From: cnd
Date: 19 Sep 23 - 02:03 PM

Previous thread - https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=172680&messages=17

Ironically, this forum was the one that suggested contacting Peggy!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Request for information re: miner's song
From: GUEST,maeve
Date: 19 Sep 23 - 03:16 PM

Sandra Kerr, it is a pleasure to see you here on Mudcat. I am sure someone will come through eventually!


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: Helen
Date: 19 Sep 23 - 04:38 PM

A new thread opened on same topic:

Origins: Request for information re: miner's song
    Threads combined. -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 19 Sep 23 - 08:12 PM

I no more know what this song is than anyone else here, but I have a suggestion for where to look if someone can find the book: The Thomas Armstrong songbook ("25 Popular Songs"). Armstrong (1848-1920) was a labour poet with a strong interest in mining, author e.g. of "The Durham Strike." He was a miner who was born in Durham. There is a short biography here: http://www.pitmanpoet.org.uk/TommyArmstrong/TommyArmstrong.htm.

That's not a guarantee, but he seems a reasonable candidate for the author.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 07:33 AM

I used to have Tommy's book and indeed sang some of the songs. Unfortunately I lent it out long ago and never got it back. From what I can remember most of Tommy's songs concerned the social side of the miners. There is also an album to look out for which I think is simply titled 'Tommy Armstrong of Tyneside' and features The High-Level Ranters.

Use of the word 'busty' might be relevant here as I'm sure Tommy used the word in his songs 'gannin doon the Busty pit'.

Surely there must be some Durham lads on here can give us chapter & voss.

Another writer more recently on the Durham pits is Gez Lowe.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 01:17 PM

Morrison Busty was a colliery in NW Durham- the Busty seam was a very prolific coal seam which ran through the Durham strata & was a major coal source for many of the local collieries


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 01:33 PM

It could be worth checking out the songs of Jock Purdom as he had written about North East miners having to move to Nottingham in Farewell to the Cotia. This was set in the early to mid sixties long after Tommy Armstrong.
Also try some of Johnny Handle's lesser known songs if they are available.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 03:05 PM

I think all of Johnny's pitman songs are about the North Tyne pits. Benny Graham would be a good source too.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST,Brian_M
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 04:53 PM

As mentioned, I've written to Ewan McColl's website, and I've been told that the song has been passed to Ewan's son, Callum, for an ID. Hopefully will hear back in the coming days.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 01:29 AM

Jez Lowe is the correct spelling of his name.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 02:00 AM

how about contacting Johnny Handle


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Subject: RE: Origins: Request for information re: miner's song
From: GUEST,Brian_M
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 04:45 PM

Who contacted Peggy about the song? I got in touch with Ewan McColl's website, run by Calum McColl and his wife Kerry about the song. I'm just wondering if they also asked Peggy, because if they did, and she, or someone acting on her behalf, is pinging the search back to this site, then this thing is sort of turning into a bit of an Ouroboros.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST,Brian_M
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 05:24 PM

I have also contacted BBC Panorama.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Request for information re: miner's song
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 22 Sep 23 - 01:48 AM

could it be a song by johnny handle?


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Sep 23 - 12:12 PM

We’ve got Jez Lowe coming to our folk club as guest next Tuesday: will try to remember to ask him if he can shed any light on it.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 23 Sep 23 - 12:44 PM

Mick Jones? composer of all along the Rossendale


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 04:54 AM

Just to point out that the wording in "All along the Rossendale" really annoys the residents of Rossendale. There is no valley called "Rossendale". The area is Rossendale which is composed of 5 valleys. "All throughout all Rossendale" would be acceptable.

Perhaps I'll start a thread on mislabled geography in folksong.

Robin


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 Sep 23 - 07:21 PM

Well, I asked Jez: definitely not one of his, and he didn’t know whose it was, although I think he had heard of it. I tried!


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 11 Oct 23 - 07:20 AM

I saw Benny Graham last night and mentioned this to him but the song didn't ring any bells with him. However he did suggest that the songs or repertoire of Roger Watson could be explored especially regarding the Nottingham/Mining connection.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this MacColl coal mining song?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 04:58 PM

I combined the two threads on this song, and cleaned things up a bit. Still no answer. Anybody have ideas?
Am I safe adding MacColl's name to the thread title? It's certainly his voice, isn't it?
https://youtu.be/7m3Cvw5Ybmg?t=272
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this MacColl coal mining song?
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 08 Nov 23 - 02:17 AM

yes, it is his voice


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this MacColl coal mining song?
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 08 Nov 23 - 10:47 AM

Roger Watson told me he did NOT write it


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this MacColl coal mining song?
From: Helen
Date: 08 Nov 23 - 03:05 PM

GUEST,Brian_M Date: 21 Sep 23 - 05:24 PM said: "I have also contacted BBC Panorama. "

Was there any reply or useful info from BBC?


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this MacColl coal mining song?
From: Helen
Date: 08 Nov 23 - 03:27 PM

I just watched the credits at the end of the Panorama show (which was linked in the original post by GUEST,Brian_M) but found no info on the music credits, but I think I found a slight lead at 4.04 mins. The part in which the song is used is in an old piece of footage with the title The Mining Review with an RCA Sound Recording brand below the title.

This is a page from The National Library of Scotland archives (may all the gods, Celtic and others, bless archivists and librarians including retired ex-librarians like me! Sorry! Couldn't stop myself!):

The Mining Review

That link refers to a specific episode but a search of their film archive may reveal the correct footage and if you are really lucky the credits will give the answer to our mystery. If it is not in the Scottish archive it may be in another one.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this MacColl coal mining song?
From: Helen
Date: 09 Nov 23 - 03:24 AM

This song just popped into my head, and although the melody is not the same as the mystery song in this thread the chord progression seems similar, and this page states that Ewan MacColl wrote it:

School days over

I might be barking up the wrong tree, but is it possible that Mr MacColl rewrote the lyrics to fit the topic of the documentary? It might also explain why it is so difficult to track down. It could be a one-off, project-related song.

(And just as an aside, I did an internet search for the phrase "down to Nottingham good prospects are my goal" and found the same request for info on Reddit, also posted by our GUEST,Brian_M, and the two AI/ChatBots said they could find nothing on the song and that ended the discussion, so we humans can pat ourselves on the back for caring enough to search for the answer to the mystery, even if we don't solve it. :-D )


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this MacColl coal mining song?
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 09 Nov 23 - 02:22 PM

i would agree with you


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 08 Sep 23 - 12:52 PM

it is Ewan, alright. i will contact jim carroll to see if he knows


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST,Brian_M
Date: 08 Sep 23 - 03:12 PM

Also had a quick scan through that album and couldn't find the song in question. Each of the Radio Ballads volumes are on the Internet Archive, in case that's not already known.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 03:47 PM

I'm guessing it was recorded some time around the late 50s, given the circumstances that are being sung about.


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 07:16 AM

If it was on 'Panorama' they would have had to obtain clearance, so they will know (unless the BBC have wiped the tapes:)).


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 04:16 AM

contact Peggy Seeger


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Subject: RE: Origins: What is this coal mining song?
From: GUEST,Brian_M
Date: 15 Sep 23 - 03:34 PM

I've contacted Ewan McColl's website. Maybe they'll have further information on the song.


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