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Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)

DigiTrad:
CLAUDE DALLAS
FOUR RODE BY
FOUR STRONG WINDS
RED VELVET
SOMEDAY SOON
SONG FOR CANADA
SPRINGTIME IN ALBERTA
SUMMER WAGES


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Lyr Req: Ghost Lover (from Ian & Sylvia) (7)
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chords/Lyr Req: Stories He'd Tell (Ian Tyson) (13)
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Chord Req: love without end (Ian Tyson) (4)
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Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson) (11)
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Chord Req: Short Grass (Ian Tyson) (43)
Lyr/Chords Req: Some Kind of Fool (Ian Tyson) (17)
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Lyr Req: Tomorrow Is a Long Time (Ian & Sylvia) (5)
Lyr Req: Springtime in Alberta (Ian Tyson) (4)
Lyr Req: Ian Tyson Lovin Sound (4)
Lyr Req: Brave Wolfe (Ian & Sylvia version) (9)
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GUEST,genie 12 Aug 01 - 09:12 AM
Midchuck 12 Aug 01 - 09:28 AM
Sorcha 12 Aug 01 - 12:43 PM
GUEST,genie 13 Aug 01 - 03:21 AM
Sorcha 13 Aug 01 - 11:04 AM
katlaughing 13 Aug 01 - 11:30 AM
katlaughing 13 Aug 01 - 12:20 PM
Sorcha 13 Aug 01 - 12:30 PM
katlaughing 13 Aug 01 - 12:54 PM
Sorcha 13 Aug 01 - 01:03 PM
katlaughing 13 Aug 01 - 01:19 PM
Sorcha 13 Aug 01 - 01:21 PM
Melani 13 Aug 01 - 01:40 PM
katlaughing 13 Aug 01 - 03:10 PM
Sorcha 13 Aug 01 - 03:19 PM
Sorcha 13 Aug 01 - 03:57 PM
Sorcha 14 Aug 01 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,Melani 14 Aug 01 - 02:50 PM
Sorcha 14 Aug 01 - 04:47 PM
Midchuck 14 Aug 01 - 06:15 PM
enkd 15 Aug 01 - 02:13 PM
Genie 19 Aug 01 - 01:36 AM
Art Thieme 20 Aug 01 - 01:17 AM
Art Thieme 20 Aug 01 - 01:24 AM
Melani 20 Aug 01 - 10:27 PM
GUEST,Michael Weinman 28 May 07 - 12:07 AM
GUEST 28 May 07 - 09:04 PM
Big Jim from Jackson 29 May 07 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,Michael Weinman 21 Jun 07 - 11:25 PM
GUEST,Michael Weinman 22 Jul 07 - 01:52 AM
SouthernCelt 22 Jul 07 - 10:59 AM
Franz S. 22 Jul 07 - 08:40 PM
SouthernCelt 23 Jul 07 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,John Kidder 03 Mar 08 - 09:52 PM
GUEST,JohnKidder 03 Mar 08 - 10:03 PM
GUEST,dok124 20 Mar 09 - 05:22 PM
Genie 20 Mar 09 - 09:18 PM
Art Thieme 21 Mar 09 - 07:45 PM
GUEST 04 Oct 10 - 03:31 PM
GUEST,Charles Adler 29 Nov 11 - 02:19 AM
GUEST,John e 04 Jan 17 - 05:55 PM
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Subject: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: GUEST,genie
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 09:12 AM

I couldn't find Ian Tyson's song "The Renegade" in the DT. I have it on an old tape, which I can't find, but there's no lyric sheet, in any event, and the song has some Native American words in it which I am not sure how to pronounce. Can someone post the lyrics?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 09:28 AM

I'd like that also.

Peter.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE RENEGADE (Ian Tyson)
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:43 PM

Took a bit of effort, but I found the lyrics here:Click!

Ian Tyson wrote the lyrics and Sylvia Fricker (Tyson) wrote the music to a tune called The Renegade for their NASHVILLE album. See below:

THE RENEGADE

Up on the hillside, policemen were climbing
The ghosts of the night wind, their fantasies ceased to tell
Dark on the snow were the blood drops a-dryin';
Slipped through cold fingers whiskey bottle fell.

CHORUS

Kla-how-ya mother, I leave you with your white man;
I curse their church that tells us that our fathers were wrong
And I'll hunt my own mowich and I'll drink my own whiskey
And I'll sing until morning the old fashioned songs

Fires of the potlatch are all scattered in their ashes
Ma-sat-chie-ta-ma-now-wits the evil ones remain.
And our children cannot follow the old nor the new ways
And the poles of their fathers are rotting in the rain

CHORUS

Kla-how-ya mother, I leave you with your white man;
I curse their church that tells us that our fathers were wrong
And I'll hunt my own mowich and I'll drink my own whiskey
And I'll sing until morning the old fashioned songs

Daylight came late over high coastal mountains.
The renegade stood watching with his rifle by his side
Then he emptied his gun up into the pale yellow sunrise
And he ran down the hillside the to place where he died.

CHORUS

Kla-how-ya mother, I leave you with your white man;
I curse their church that tells us that our fathers were wrong
And I'll hunt my own mowich and I'll drink my own whiskey
And I'll sing until morning the old fashioned songs

At the site linked above the person who posted these left an e mail address and offered to send music if contacted.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: GUEST,genie
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:21 AM

Thanks for the lyrics, Sorcha.

I understand that "mowich" is deer, and I guess "Ma-sat-chie-ta-ma-now-wits" is the name of "the evil one," but do you know what "Kla-how-ya" means?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 11:04 AM

I have no clue, but kat might. I'll ask her to look in here.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 11:30 AM

I will probably be able to figure it out from my resources, but it would be helpful if you knew which specific language it is. It looks and sounds a little bit like Cherokee. Anybody know?

There are a bunch of links to hundreds of languages HERE including many Native American, but, again, it helps to know which one.

Let me know and I'll help you find out.

Thanks for the heads-up, Sorcha!

kat


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:20 PM

According to what I found on google it is Chinook for "how are you" or "how do you do." If you type it in google, there are several things which come up, all of them up in BC and around the Klamath region.

Hope this helps.

Mitakuye Oyasin (We are all related.)

kay


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:30 PM

Ah, ya beat me kat! The language family is Salish (I rather suspected it might be--the clue is the word "potlatch") and yes, according to this page it is a greeting. Still haven't found the other two for sure. Mowich might be food or meat but I don't think it's deer.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:54 PM

According to this site: Chinook Jargon Guide it is Chinook and mowitsh does mean deer. Slightly spelling difference. It says Chinook is the oldest trading language in America. As it is listed as "jargon" I wonder if that means it is a polyglot of several dialects, including Talish? Sounds likely, doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:03 PM

Ah, ok. Your dictionary site above sent me to Creole when I asked for Chinook. All the other NW Coast languages go to the same page--the Salish page and deer was something entirely different.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:19 PM

It sent me to Creole, too, buut if you follow that a bit more, it comes to that Chinook site.:-) Here's a little humour I found which seems to fit in here, regarding NA language translations:

About 1966 or so, a NASA team doing work for the Apollo moon mission took the astronauts near Tuba City. There the terrain of the Navajo Reservation looks very much like the lunar surface. Among all the trucks and large vehicles were two large figures that were dressed in full lunar spacesuits.

Nearby a Navajo sheep herder and his son were watching the strange creatures walk about, occasionally being tended by other NASA personnel. The two Navajo people were noticed and approached by the NASA personnel.

Since the man did not know English, his son asked for him who the strange creatures were. The NASA people told them that they were just men that were getting ready to go to the moon. The man became very excited and asked if he could send a message to the moon with the astronauts.

The NASA personnel thought this was a great idea so they rustled up a tape recorder. After the man gave them his message, they asked his son to translate. His son would not.

Later, they tried a few more people on the reservation to translate and every person they asked would chuckle and then refuse to translate.

Finally, with cash in hand someone translated the message, "Watch out for these guys, they come to take your land."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:21 PM

Chuckle, yea, I saw that somewhere else recently too.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Melani
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:40 PM

I seem to recall hearing that the story in the song was based on a true incident involving an Ojibway. Don't know what the language connection might be.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:10 PM

Hi, Melani. It might have involved an Ojibway/Anishinaabe, but I don't think there is a language connection there. At least not from what I can gather. In Anishinaabe the same greeting is this:

How are you? = Gminoomaadis na?* (guh-min-oo-mah-dis nah) (this literally translates to "Are you living well?")

Sure wish we could find out the story behind it, though. Do you remember where you might have heard it. Does anyone have liner notes for this song?

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:19 PM

We could e mail his agent, Paul Mascoli and ask him...

mascioli@talentagency.com


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:57 PM

OK, I just did that. We'll see if we get a reply.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 12:26 PM

This just in my e mail from Ian's agent, Paul Mascioli:

"Sorry, Ian doesn't recall this song"........oh well.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 02:50 PM

I do have the liner notes and even know where they are. I was just too lazy yesterday to walk into the next room. I'll find it when I get home today, but I'm not sure if that's where my info came from. It was a really long time ago. Though one WOULD expect the guy who wrote the song to at least remember it vaguely. Wonder what he's been doing all these years?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 04:47 PM

Well, he and Sylvia are divorced. Ian is re married and living on a ranch (near Calgary?). His style has changed completely and he is doing Cowboy Songs now. I too though it a bit odd that he didn't remember his own song. But hey, at least we heard back from the agent.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Midchuck
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 06:15 PM

And I'll hunt my own mowich
And I'll drink my own whiskey
And I'll sing until morning the old fashioned songs

I had thought "mowich" was "knowledge."

Either way, that's a pretty good lifestyle definition to my way of thinking.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: enkd
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 02:13 PM

Chinook Jargon seems like a good match... from here:
mowitschdeer
potlatchgift; to give
klahowyacommon salutation
(could be) klahowyumpoor; wretched
mesachiebad
tamanhousmagic; the spirits


enkd


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Genie
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 01:36 AM

"klahowym" makes more sense than "klahowya," in this song. He seems to be saying, "Goodbye, mother," or "Poor mother," since the next line is "I leave you with your white man. ... ." Does it make as much sense to say something like, "Hello, Mom. [or "How's it going, Mom?] followed by " I leave you with your white man; I curse that church ... "?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 01:17 AM

I read a book about 25 years ago called TRASK. (don't recall the author.)It was set on the coast of Oregon---near Tillamook Head. If I'm remembering right, "mowich" meant something like good medicine based on a combination of things---hunting skills, having the proper medicine bundle, having mastered the tribes wisdom and lore etc. These combine to make a sort of gestalt where the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. Sort of like karma and good preparation make for powerful warriors. Mowich, therefore, had to be searched for and found---hunted and won.

Kla-how-ya was a greeting.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 01:24 AM

masache-tamanawis was the spelling I remember.

tamanawits (with a "t") sounds like a Jewish Indian ;-)

Art


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Melani
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 10:27 PM

Just found the album--"Nashville". No notes. Maybe the story was in "SingOut!" or somewhere else. I know I read it somewhere.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: GUEST,Michael Weinman
Date: 28 May 07 - 12:07 AM

Like most Ian and Sylvia songs, it is haunting and meaingful as well as beautiful. Gives one a respect for Canada and its peoples.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 07 - 09:04 PM

On occasion, Ian and Sylvia's son posts on the 'cat. I had hopes that he might break in here and share his knowledge, or get with Ian and let us know. I wonder if the agent didn't just brush off the question because he just didn't want to be bothered. I don't know him---he could be the most honest man in the world, and maybe he's relaying the truth.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Big Jim from Jackson
Date: 29 May 07 - 11:15 AM

That last comment was from me---I guess I lost my cookies. I hope I didn't splash any one!!!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: GUEST,Michael Weinman
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 11:25 PM

Interesting how the questions about this song were dormant from 2001 to 2007 and seem to have been revived - or were never really answered. One wonders if Beautiful BC Magazine might be able to shed some light on it or its references and language.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: GUEST,Michael Weinman
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 01:52 AM

On July 19, Beautiful British Columbia replied that they had no knowledge of the song or the legend behind it.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: SouthernCelt
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 10:59 AM

Since I'm a card-carrying member of Ian's fan club, I'll send a message to the club coordinator (who's one of the few people that have a way to get a question to Ian) and see if she can ask the man himself. I'll get back to this same thread if I get an answer.

SC


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Franz S.
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 08:40 PM

As for "Klahowya/ klahowyum", an all-purpose salutation can easily be both "hello' and "goodbye", as well as "live well" and many other things. When I was a Peace Corps Volunteer in Colombia I was often saluted in the street with "Goodbye, mister! How are you?" "Adios" was used to mean both "hello' and "goodbye", but the high school English text allowed only "goodbye". My recollection of Chinook jargon from Portland, OR, 50 years ago is that "klahowya" was like that: "salutations" or "good to see you" or "honor and respect to you", either at meeting or at parting.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: SouthernCelt
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 01:20 PM

UPDATE: I've e-mailed the fan club administrator with the question and a brief explanation of how it came to be discussed. She's already forwarded the message to Ian and if he doesn't respond, she'll ask him face-to-face the next time she goes up to the Longview, Alberta area.

SC


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: GUEST,John Kidder
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 09:52 PM

Klahowya is hello-goodbye-nice to see you-see you later, etc.

Mowitch is deer.

Chinook was a trading jargon used throughout the northwest from fur trade days to the 1940s and 50s. Still survives in bits here and there.

Tons of Chinook dictionaries at http://www.multilingualbooks.com/onlinedicts-nativeamerican.html


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: GUEST,JohnKidder
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 10:03 PM

masachi tamanêwês is witchcraft, necromancy


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: GUEST,dok124
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 05:22 PM

Very interesting info; glad I found this website. Does anyone know how, where or from whom I can purchase "Shades Of Time" by the Pozo Seco Singers? I've got their previous two albums but am desperately seeking the third and, in particular, the song, "The Renegade", one of the finest songs ever written/performed.
   Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Daniel.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Genie
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 09:18 PM

So I take it "klahowya(um)" is Chinook for "ciao," right? ; )

I hope when someone gets to ask Ian about this song, this time he remembers writing it! LOL


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 07:45 PM

I sang it for several years. I felt the story of it strongly. Sad irony and great drama in concise poetic terms; just like great poetry ought---plus obscure cultural language references to grab any romantic historian that happens by. It has everything that any great folk song should exhibit.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 03:31 PM

Intrestingly on the subject of what Mowich means, I've always heard it on the recording as "I'll hut my own knowlege.." so I will kind of think that the indian word being used means that.

I'm on board with the "Goodbye Mother" inerpretation too.

The fact that Ian doesn't remember this song is indicitavie of the old saying "If you can remember the 60's, you weren't there!" LOL.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: GUEST,Charles Adler
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 02:19 AM

cspencera@me.com    955 Eudora St., #1607, Denver, CO 80220
This is such a beautiful song, which I recorded and memorized from Radio Canada in Quebec
in l978, and have been searching for since. I, too, thought he'd said "Knowledge", thought
Klahowyeh was a particular tribe, and presumed the long name was some type of demon
or demonic Kachina. The thing is that I, and from my reading here, others, deeply felt what the song was saying, and understood it emotionally, whatever particular meaning or
misunderstanding we gave to the words. The whole here is so much more than the sum
of its parts. Maybe Ian Tyson was, for whatever reason, feeling a bit of personal despair
here, as conveyed in the song, and for that reason either can't or won't remember the time.
I realize that this is pure idle speculation, without a shred of evidence, and I apologize in advance for that to Ian. Yet all of us have at one time or another probably felt similar
emotions, and my guess is that this is part of what so draws us, over so many years, to
understand this song. So thank you for this gift anyway, Ian. And thanks to Sylvia Fricker also, for music that can carry these words and move us further towards feeling them.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Renegade (Ian Tyson)
From: GUEST,John e
Date: 04 Jan 17 - 05:55 PM

First heard this song in the early 70's and have had it running through my mind ever since. This is a sone that Pozo Seco recorded and they seemed to add that little something to it that never dies. I bumped my head the other day and let out a "mowich" and so hummed the song again.
Very much appreciate all your effort above to sort out the ünknown"lyrics.

This is a song that should be kept alive

John


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