Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jan 24 - 04:51 AM

THANKYOU for drawing attention to the interviews

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Jon Bartlett
Date: 30 Jan 24 - 04:50 AM

The tune for "Dirty Old Town" was drawn from "The Wife of Usher's Well", and a damn fine tune it is!
Jon in Kerala

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 30 Jan 24 - 04:11 AM

Yes, his birth place is a matter of record. Unfortunately, there is a significant gap in his autobiography. He once told me that he used to live on Werneth Low in Stockport and, on checking exactly where, he describes his occupation as a “balloon rigger”.

The Special Branch files, investigating his activities during this period, make interesting reading.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jan 24 - 03:58 AM

MacColl was born as James Henry Miller at 4 Andrew Street, in Broughton, Salford, England.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jan 24 - 03:55 AM

He was born in England and had a Scottish mother.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Ballyholme
Date: 29 Jan 24 - 08:16 PM

MacColl seemed to be contradict the usual assumption that he was born in Salford when he was interviewed by Studs Tekel in 1960. He clearly stated that he was born in Scotland!

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 29 Jan 24 - 10:05 AM

Ewan MacColl only wrote the words to “The Joy of Living”The tune is traditional Sicilian.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jan 24 - 04:52 AM

Dirty old town... original tune
First time ever ....original tune
Joy of living....original tune
"The Manchester Rambler", original Tune

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jan 24 - 02:17 AM

I did not start this thread.
Ewan used, the tune tramps and hawkers, for one of his songs. the majority of his songs had original tunes

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jan 24 - 11:24 PM

You've waded through a twelve-year-old thread - and I'm sure Dick has started (or reopened) many more since then. It's an old topic that many know the answer to but still want to haggle over.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Douglas McColl
Date: 28 Jan 24 - 10:41 PM

I have a headache now from reading all the posts. Why? I guess it got a discussion going! Its like stroop effect psychology experiment. Whatever he identified with, who cares. For Gods sake, people are self-identifying as cats and shit these days. Ewan's nationality was English and maybe he took the name because he was a fan of Robbie Burns and knew of Evan's work and thought the name sounded cool in which case he should have used MacCool. And yes we "McColls, MacColls and a couple other spellings are part of clan MacDonald. If any of you know Julie Fowlis, please mention that perhaps she should cover one of Evan's songs. Does anyone know any of the traditional music for the songs he wrote?

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 11:53 AM

Aye weel, Jim; I reckon ye're gey hard tae please fan it comes to the Scots, the noo!

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 10:42 AM

That Guest posting was from me, I was using another computer and hadn't signed in. The effect MacColl's 'Scottish' voice has on me is of course entirely personal but I'm afraid I don't know what a General Purpose Scots' accent is. The heavy burr used by Harry Lauder and Matt McGinn also 'gars me grue'.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 06:22 AM

Can't see where your 'grue' comes from, Guest. Perfectly serviceable General Purpose Scots accent IMO. The vocal mannerisms inherent in MacColl's singing, to be sure, do not appeal to everyone, tho didn't worry me; but they were present whatever accent he adopted. I suspect they, rather than the accent itself, are what you are reacting so negatively & 'gruesomely' to.

~M~

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 06:07 AM

"I grue slightly"
Horses for courses I suppose - and I will be eternally grateful for having been introduced to the hundreds of ballads in a form that would ensure they remained with me throughout my life.
As many ballad singers as I have istened to, I can't think of a single one who did that to the extent he did.
Jm Carroll

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 05:55 AM

Yes, Jim, but this would have an effect on his singing/acting voice. I have said many times before I have the greatest regard for MacColl as a writer but I grue slightly when I hear him singing with a Scottish accent.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 02:04 AM

He was a Scotsman with Scottish ancestory, born in England. My mother was born in Egypt (true) - suffice to say she is not Egyptian in anyway.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 07:41 PM

"so I really don't know what else is to be said. "
You might add that MacColl was raised in a Scots household and to her death in the seventies his mother Betsy had an accent you couldn't cut with a sharp knife.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 03:45 PM

I have met and talked with both McColl and Donegan. Both Donegan's and McColl's natural spoken voices were in what I would call English, McColl more northern English than Donegan. McColl's singing voice varied, choosing either Scottish or English (being an actor) whereas Donegan stuck to his English accent even when singing 'Rock Island Line'.. We know where they were both born and raised, McColl born in England and raised in England and Donegan born in Scotland and raised in England so I really don't know what else is to be said.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:40 PM

Don't people get tired of winding up Jim Carroll in Ewan MacColl threads? Yes, I've done it myself - but it palls after a while.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:36 PM

go on Jim! Chuck a brick at him anyway!

Fight! Fight!

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:23 PM

it must be a full moon.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: goatfell
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:14 PM

English

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 01:59 PM

Re Lonnie Donegan's accent - I stand corrected. Apologies.

In my defence, M'lud - I have heard him talk in a broad Glasgow accent while discussing the "Denny Palais" with Lulu on the telly.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 09:24 AM

MtheGM.

1. It's pretty clear from my posting where I come from.

2. I don't claim any authority on Scottish accents despite having    worked alongside/among and for Scottish people for a considerable period of my working life both in Dundee and down here. I was once accused of being Scottish not for my accent but for some of my phraseology which I had inadvertently picked up. I think Jim clarifies Ewan's problem with the song to which I referred.

Jim. I did put that comment about bricks in with my tongue in my cheek. I didn't believe that we would be at odds on this.

Whatever accents MacColl and Donegan used they both seem to have made a comfortable living from Music which is to be admired and both share the responsibility for creating a wider audience for real "folk related" music in the UK.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 09:23 AM

playing the gatekeeper in MacBeath

We all blunder on Mudcat, but as typos go that's a classic. All hail MacBeath that shall be king hereafter!

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 07:50 AM

"Cue one ton of bricks from Jim"
Nope - quite agree with you on some of his earliest recordings.
The song you are referring to is Jock Hawk's Adventures in Glasgow, and there, it is not so much the accent that he has difficulty with but a rather heavy-handed attempt to imitate the 'plooman's' style of singing.
Having listened my way through the recordings of the Critics Group meetings recently, I came to the conclusion that he made a god-awful job of a Liverpool accent (my own).
MacColl's approach to accents was never, in my opinion, accuracy, but an actors one of producing a generally neutral Scots accent in order to keep the songs accessible but to leave them as Scots songs.
I remember seeing Matt McGinn at the Edinburgh Festival in the sixties playing the gatekeeper in MacBeath - didn't understand a word (and my dad was born in Glasgow).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 07:43 AM

Where are you from, Hoot? What makes you an authority on the authentic sound of Scottish of all dialects. Ewan, on his records with his mother Betsy from Auchterarder, sounds pretty much the same as her, accent-wise, to my ear.

~M~

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 07:33 AM

Having grown up only slightly west of Donegan I would say that his natural accent was more accurately suited to "Dustman" than to "Rock Island Line". I was recently watching an old programme "Folk Britannia" where Lonnie sang "Rock Island" on a tv show and the cod american accent (sorry McGrath you are wrong)really was somewhat toe curling but what was even more so was in the same programme Ewan attempted a scottish accent on a song of which I can only recall the chorus "Tum a Hi Dum Doo, Tum a Hi Dum Day". It was obvious that Ewan never conquered the accent despite his heritage. (Cue one ton of bricks from Jim).Thinking about it I guess that Donegan was more Scottish than Ewan. Glasgow as opposed to Salford.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 04:57 AM

According to wiki the family moved from Scotland to East Ham when he was two years old. It says he attended St Ambrose but only during the war as he was an evacuee

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Brakn
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 07:13 PM

I know that he(Lonnie) went to school in Altrincham(St Ambrose) for a bit. That's not London - is it?

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 06:26 PM

"is definitely not sung in a Glesga accent.:-)" Mind he moved to London when he was a toddler. London accent would be his natural accent.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 05:24 PM

"That was the great thing with Lonnie Donnegan, he never put on a foreign accent to sing a foreign song" Quote from Mr McGrath of Harlow

I'm not sure if his comment is tongue in cheek however, if no....
"My Old man's A Dustman" is definitely not sung in a Glesga accent.:-)

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 04:39 PM

four years ago

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 06:44 AM

Yes it was Jim Carroll, I was alluding to.

Little Englander - I wish! i could do with losing a few pounds, or even stones.....

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Musket
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 05:38 AM

If my Aunty had balls, she'd be my Uncle.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 03:20 PM

"As for Jim, well he's not even in this country any more. "
Do I spy the 'Little Englander" raising its head.
I'll show you what we've got if you show me yours.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 02:51 PM

Of course, Big Al, you could have been talking about Jim Carroll, whom I consider a perfect gentleman with considerable knowledge and insight concerning our Ewan. Be kind and you may even get his vote ... or maybe not.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 02:28 PM

I suspect the reason "oollaimh" was not welcome at the Singer's Club 40 years ago is that he was a hostile paranoid git with a delusional chip on his shoulder back then just as he is now.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 02:23 PM

Aw Big Al, I'm assuming I am the Jim you're referring to. I don't know where you think I live but listening to your song I think you're from somewhere in North America. Never mind I voted for you out of solidarity.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 02:08 PM

"the lowland scots have borrowed almost all their cultural icons from highlanders and then bretayed their highland countrymen to the tender mercies of the imperial ethnic cleansing."

More often than not the clearing of Highlanders was done by other Highlnders. The Highland Chiefs may have been anglicised but they were still Highlanders for the most part. Not Lowland Scots and not English. Though of course there were some exceptions. As for icons etc. MacColl was immersed in what were probably mostly Lowland ballads. I don't think he put kilts on and played the Highland pipes that much or sang much in Gaelic etc.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 01:33 PM

By the way, have you lot voted for me yet?   I promise you if i go mainstream like val Doonican, I'll pretend I never was a real folksinger, I was just waiting for a break in showbusiness.

I'll stop bothering you all.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 01:30 PM

I had a folksinger friend who called himself Gordon Cameron after reading The Flight of the Heron. I remember Ian Campbell said to him when he came off the stage one night at The Jug of Punch, well its a great name...!

ollaimh.....lighten up mate, for your own sake. Whenever these slights occurred at The Singers Club - well it must have been a while back.

As for Jim, well he's not even in this country any more. His cyber rebukes are as the gentle rain from heaven. Be nice to the old chap. he's getting on.

where's the Balkan's. I used used to smoke Balkan Sobranie, way back. I'm sure the people who make such nice fags wouldn't want you upsetting yourself.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: ollaimh
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:32 AM

singer club always polite, well the "nice anglos" always say thAt when they are giving you the bums rush.

the insults jim carrol sent my way are the kind of politness i am used to from his sort. thanks. i know where not to go.

ewan was pretending to be a highlander with the name mccoll. well he wasn't . he was a lowlander. the the lowland scots have borrowed almost all their cultural icons from highlanders and then bretayed their highland countrymen to the tender mercies of the imperial ethnic cleansing. and i see notheing short og cultural ethnic cleansing in the ideology of groups like the singers club. they want our culture but we cab take a hike.

it's show biz. nothing wrong with show biz, but that's what it is. you make up a personality and go on stage are get an audience by haveing folk cred. all the while the actual gaels are not welcome.i had the exact same experience at the vancouver folk ss. who were ewan mccoll ideology followers--at least many of tem quoted his ideas. he had good deas but they get applied by bigoted and ignorant anglos and become just another way for the "nice anglos" to posture righteous and superior. it becoms a church.

ewan was a great song writer but he was deluded in his ideological thinking. he came out of the rediscovery of folk music first by nationalists and then by leftists to prove their link to the masses. those ideologs were entirely self serving.

i still occasionally go to anglo folk scenes. i don't expect to be treated well. they don't like any differences. however occasionally it's fun. if its not i just don't go. however the french and celtic folk scene is always fun and full of traditional music. so that's where i usually go.

i few years ago i sang at the cecil sharpe house . they were a very welcoming crowd. and i didn't even have an instrument so i sand acapella.i did meet a few great celtic musicians. they agreed with me thast you just have to agree with the anglos to get along. they won't listen to outsiders and will attack vehemently if you back sass the empire(in their minds). youse guys should ocassionally think about what you've created where no ethnically diverses can go about openly. itws justbthe empire and it;s just show biz.

i used to think carrol was a decent person--oh well. maybe there really aren't any in folk.i don't call myself folf anymore. i'm a celtic nusician with an interest in balkan tunes and a few native amerindian songs and acadien music.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 01:50 PM

I think tis comparison between MacColl and De Valera is like comparing apples with pearls. De Valera was involved In a political movement which established a (semi) free Ireland from British rule .. his singing was immaterial. MacColl wanted to keep the British union at least between Scotland, England and Wales and sang to that effect.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 01:22 PM

give us a clue, what about him Dick?deVelera?
well he was crap compared to MacColl, he didnt write any good songs,he rewrote the irish constitution to suck up to the catholic church, his general effect was divisive politically.
THE only thing they have in common is that they both changed their name, i believe Dev was a crap singer, Ewan was good.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 08:40 AM

Thank you Al. Never too inward with either George Moore or George Meredith, but do like their contemporary George Gissing. Did you have to be called George to find a publisher for your novel in those days, I ask myself?...

~M~

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 08:32 AM

Has everyone seen the fine tribute to Ewan MacColl is the first part of this Youtube video?

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 04:17 AM

My apologies I should have known a gentleman like yourself would be in capable of discourtesy.

I suppose you're right. Bad analogy - if Thatcher was Barabas that makes Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock into Jesus. I suppose they both had something of the same self righteous style.

I believe it was George Moore who called Christ 'the pale socialist of Galilee'. Are you into George Moore at all? My lecturer at college (later the best man at my wedding) was doing a PhD on Moore that never got done. he settled for an MPhil in the end, but he introduced me to a lot of those circa 1890 writers. fascinating period! Particularly the Irish of course like moore, Wilde and Yeats, Shaw, and of course up and coming Joyce.

last time i was in Dublin I passed by the National Library and there was a Yeats exhibition on. Spent ages there!

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 05:33 PM

No ~ I didn't say he was one: I said "your bumhole", in the way that Ricky Tomlinson as Mr Royle used to say "my arse!" i.e = 'your statement was erroneous'. Sorry if that was not clear.

The choice of Barrabas over Jesus was, nevertheless, a democratic choice. It is an matter of much theological dispute as to whether this was the 'right' or 'wrong' choice anyhow; no Crucifixion of Jesus, no Christianity! No doubt such as Duns Scotus & Aquinas will have had much to say of this. A poor analogy IMO, in any event.

~M~