BS: Newlywed Advice?

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:46 PM

Hey Hesperis,

    PM me anytime, k?

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 09:37 AM

I know some of you good folks are pretty alarmed. What Hes refers to a couple of times-- starting to work on the real issues-- she's serious.

A couple of us are working together to network our way to good programs and approaches in Hesperis and Steve's area. It's all in PMs so it can avoid all the arguing, but we've been able to communicate some tough realities and, so far, these have been received well.

Some promising leads are coming to light and I think Hesperis is actually following up on them and will continue to do so. She's writing in this thread somewhat in shorthand, so people are not always understanding what she's saying in the way she means it.

I think it makes sense to let the thread drop now and let these kids get down to work on the hard stuff these programs will be asking of them.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: hesperis
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 01:01 AM

He's a black belt and learned how to actually kill people or highly maim them from his particular karate school. Becoming a black belt is the only thing he's ever truly succeeded in doing... Which is why he'd probably be a great stuntman in films. He hasn't killed people but would definitely be dangerous if left to become delinquent, which is what happens when you don't fit and nobody cares that you don't fit.

This discussion has polarized to the point where it's only a bunch of arguing between people who think that people can't possibly have problems like this and people who've had those problems and can therefore understand.

We're doing what we can now. Over and out.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 12:45 AM

Sorry -- I can't get past "...since he's capable of killing people..."! I'm afraid to ask what basis you have for that statement, and how you're able to let it drop so offhandedly.

This is *way* beyond anything I want to remain involved in.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 12:34 AM

She's not full of shit, dianavan. I know hesperis personally. I've spent a fair amount of time with her in person, face to face, and while it may sound a bit difficult to believe, I have all of the same health problems that hesperis has, and some of the same brain wiring problems as Steve. And I know from personal experience that they are very much not full of shit. I've been sick since I was fifteen years old. When I was in my thirties, I was forced to go on a Social Security (SSI) disability pension, and I lived on that for about ten years. During quite a bit of that time I was barely able to get out of bed. It's pretty damned impossible to get an SSI disability pension if you don't have a legitimate ailment. I even had to get thoroughly evaluated by a psychiatrist and a psychologist to determine that I wasn't crazy or malingering.

There really are people in the world who have exactly the kind of problems that hesperis and Steve say they have. I know because I'm one of them. Lucky for you that you aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 12:23 AM

What about working as an instrument man for a surveyor? That can be adventurous depending on what kind of area he would be working in. I worked as a rod man (woman) for a surveyor for a few months a while back. We were working in a gorgeous mountainous part of western Maryland, and we were outside hiking around in scenery people pay money to see, and getting paid to do it. Is he good at math?

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 12:01 AM

hesperis - "I tried to join outward bound in high school because when I was a kid I was ALWAYS up a tree and I loved it the one time we actually went camping. I was sick so often that I couldn't get to enough meetings to be able to go on the trip. I also couldn't afford a sleeping bag. So that never happened which is probably just as well since I'm allergic to the Great Outdoors."

I'm outta here, honey. You are totally full of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 11:59 PM

If Steve gets pushed out now, he'll just end up not caring what happens to him. Since he's capable of killing people he'd easily get into way too much trouble. If he gets vocational counselling and finds something he can do that he's good at, and good company to work with, he'll be ok.

That is an alarming statement, Hesperis, and sounds like a lot more than you should have to deal with. It also sounds almost like a threat to his parents, i.e. they'd be responsible his "killing people!" If he's really in that kind of shape, I'd say he needs a lot more than vocational counselling and a good company to work for.

I hope you can get some good counselling.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: hesperis
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 11:52 PM

I tried to join outward bound in high school because when I was a kid I was ALWAYS up a tree and I loved it the one time we actually went camping. I was sick so often that I couldn't get to enough meetings to be able to go on the trip. I also couldn't afford a sleeping bag. So that never happened which is probably just as well since I'm allergic to the Great Outdoors.

Mary - Yeah. And I almost ruined her frypan because I'd never used non-stick before... *hides* (Her son completely ruined my good cast-iron frypan though!) We're in Indiana now, unfortunately far from Canada. (Although I wouldn't be able to go back to Canada for two years anyway because of immigration, unless I get prior permission from the government, and that's still chancy.) Here I'm allergic to the dog and the cleaning supplies that the cleaners use, but it's much better than anyplace else because everyone else here has allergies too. (Even the dog.) How did you know he needs a haircut?? ;)

dianavan - It's one thing to try to truly prepare your kids and THEN push them out and make them try to fly. My mother pushed me out of the nest at 18, and although I needed to go and had been trying to prepare for it I wasn't ready for being in charge of earning a living. I was sick all the time but it was "just allergies" so I thought there was nothing I could do but go on welfare, try to get by without going outdoors and try to eat right on $20 a month. I also hadn't been to a doctor or a dentist in years because my mother had phobias around men in white coats due to past abuse of authority. But I thought that was normal, didn't know you were supposed to go in for a checkup every year.

If Steve gets pushed out now, he'll just end up not caring what happens to him. Since he's capable of killing people he'd easily get into way too much trouble. If he gets vocational counselling and finds something he can do that he's good at, and good company to work with, he'll be ok.

CarolC - Outdoors something might be good. Instructor of anything, no way. Computer animation is something he's done on a small scale for amateur games but he needs more exercise.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 11:50 PM

Outward bound instructor would be a pretty adventurous career as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 11:38 PM

Read about Outward Bound here

http://www.outwardbound.org/philosophy.html

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 11:33 PM

Life is an adventure if you step out the front door.

I hope when you say adventure, you don't mean fantasy adventures like Dungeons and Dragons or computer games or something. If you mean outdoor adventure, try Outward Bound. Its an excellent program and his parents might even fund it if you do the research and sell your guy on the idea. It will certainly improve his self esteem. You might be interested yourself.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 10:39 PM

JtS suggested computer animation as a possible career path for the adventurous.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: Gypsy
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 09:50 PM

Are you in a big city, or a small town? Since i can only talk about small towns............adventurous jobs would include: newspaper reporter/photographer. EMT. Ambulance driver. Park Ranger (we live on the coast, so rangers get to do a lot of neat stuff) Fire department. Of course, you get REALLY adventurous, and manage a farmers market, like i do! Hope some of these ideas will spark other ideas for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: mg
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 09:42 PM

it would probably help also if you said what town this is in..I seem to remember Redwing Minnesota, but that might have changed or be wrong. Someone here knows about what community colleges might offer for training; someone might have a cousin who works in a nursing home or whatever; someone might know something about employment security issues....you're on the right track. You have a roof over your head and it seems like your allergies are doing OK there. That is huge progress. You don't have to worry about food it seems. You have married a good man. So the only problem that remains is money and taking care of your health. And immigration. Are you close to Canada? If you needed health care can you get to it in Canada?

Check into bartering. You have web skills and your husband has skills in some areas that we don't know for sure yet what they are, and there is a lot you need now, especially naturopathic medical care I would think. What is in your area? But also, your husband needs haircuts, you need dental work, you could both use a weekend or week at a nice winter lodge, etc. etc. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 09:05 PM

You're right about me being a hardass when it comes to kids. My kids starting working when they were 12. My son was on his own by the time he was 18. My daughter, well... at 28 she's finally on her own (I think). Its very difficult for parents when their children leave home. Even more difficult when they move back in. All of the in and out is very hard to adjust to. We do it because we don't want to see our kids suffer but...

There's a reason the mamma bird pushes the babies out of the nest.

Good luck to you Hesperis. I think that you have so many obstacles in your own life it must be very difficult taking on another full set of problems. You must love him very much. I'd give this guy some time but remember, in the end, it is you who have to survive. It may be that you will better off on your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: mg
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 08:12 PM

I know it is frustrating and it must feel like people are dumping on you. But you are in every young married woman's worst nightmare -- living with her mother-in-law. And your m-i-l is living out her worst nightmare as well, having another woman trying to use her kitchen. There is probably no other alternative than to tread on eggshells while you are there. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 06:31 PM

Read it all. Several times. Outa here.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 05:45 PM

Also, the one childhood interest (adventure) doesn't seem to have much of a career possibility. Thoughts on possible adventurous careers would be appreciated.

Photojournalist. High adventure guide and instructor in the recreational industry (there are actully college majors in this subject and it is a valid career path for many people... it includes ski instructor (downhill and/or cross country), whitewater raft guide, climbing instructor, whitewater canoeing instructor, etc.). Ian's an adventure oriented kind of guy as well. He's finding filmmaking to be a pretty adventurous career path.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: hesperis
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 05:28 PM

He took some interest and aptitude tests. Completely inconclusive. He could do anything at all.

As of now, we're looking at what type of working environment might suit his character and beliefs, and reverse-engineering from there into career possibilities, since his interests and abilities are so broad. Also, the one childhood interest (adventure) doesn't seem to have much of a career possibility. Thoughts on possible adventurous careers would be appreciated.

He's really bright but he's scared that people will put even more pressure on him if they knew, as if he should be fully functional just because he has a lot of potential. He doesn't feel he can live up to himself, so he hides. At least he's admitting that now instead of trying to persuade himself that he's just a dumbass.

Susan - Got your PMs. Thank you so much for digging up these resources! We will definitely use what we can.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 04:28 PM

Hesperis, I have sent you the day's research via PM. Suggest you read the PM that arrived LAST, first. More when I hear back from you.

What went well today?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 12:58 PM

Crossposted, hesperis. Yes, I know exactly how he feels. It will take a while for him to heal from that failure mentality, but with help, he can do it. A success mentality needs to be built one little brick at a time, though, so it probably won't happen overnight. Getting him some assistance with learning how to function in a job situation with ADD will probably get him started in a good direction. Then he just has to learn a new way of understanding himself through experiencing one success at a time. The success mentality comes as a result of the cumulative effect of many, many small successes, each leading to a slightly bigger success. Once he understands what that feels like, it will make a lot more sense to him than it probably does right now.

He also needs to learn how to advocate for himself. It sounds like he's been coping by covering up his deficiencies. I definitely know what that's like. He needs to now learn how to accept that he has differences that needs to be navigated around, and he needs to learn how to find the help he needs wherever it can be found. That's probably the second most important thing I taught Ian while he was growing up.

The first, most important thing is that he is perfectly valid and a wonderful human being just as he is, and the second is that sometimes people need help (everyone needs help at one time or another), and that there is absolutely nothing wrong with getting help when you need it, and in fact, knowing when and how to get help when needed is exactly the right thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 12:43 PM

I know from 48 years of living in very similar circumstances as Steve when it comes to this sort of thing, as well as my own experience of raising a child very much like Steve. If Steve has a failure mentality now (and he certainly does appear to have one), it is because he did not receive the help he needed when he was growing up. It was the parent's job to make sure he got what he needed while he was growing up. Since they did not do this (whether or not they were doing "the best they could"), they should do it now.

I notice a lot of people are willing to say about parents "they were doing the best they could", but they are not willing to give the child the same benefit of the doubt. Steve is and has been doing the best he could. He needed help he did not get. It's not time to cut the apron strings. It's time to corrrect past mistakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: hesperis
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 12:39 PM

PoppaGator, you are partially right. The thing is, neither Steve or I are quite adults yet because our parents didn't actually do much parenting for whatever reason. Sometimes it's as much as someone to cope with to get food and shelter for their kid. That's fine. It's called life.

What he needs to do now is to realize that his parents failed him, his schools failed him, his doctors failed him, and that society in general failed him. Not through lack of caring or lack of trying, but because sometimes it just happens that way. It sucks, but it does.

Then, he needs to realize that he does need to grow up and be self-supporting, and with my help he needs to ask his parents for the support he needs in order to do that.

If they take the attitude that since he's physically an adult he's fully grown with no effort on their part to help him gain the survival skills he should have had from them already, then we're both screwed. But again, that's their perogative. And your perogative in your situation with your child.

Anyway, this is what we are currently doing - trying to work out what he needs and how to get it so that he can support himself.

CarolC - he's already experienced a lot of failure, even though he did well in school. He actually didn't do as well as he could have, since he came away from school with a hatred of learning. He already has the attitude that he *is* the problem and it can't be fixed. Just getting through that attitude to realizing that he is valuable and can succeed with the right kind of supportive environment is currently difficult for him. Extra pressure right now to "be an adult" and "just get any job" hasn't helped at all, that's what his parents have tried for years. That's why he already does feel like a failure.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 12:38 PM

There's a lot to be said for keeping our words and thoughts on a positive page, i.e. he can do this, she can do that.

Carol, it seems a bit presumptious to say such things about his parents and the way they raised him unless you know them personally? Perhaps they did the best they knew how at the time? At any rate, I know from my own experiences, there comes a time when the apron strings have to be cut or the child will never be able to function outside the home. It would be best for Steve, from what I can tell, if that happens sooner than later. It took my mom almost 65 yrs to do so with my brother and it did him no favours.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 12:19 PM

As someone who grew up being misunderstood and not knowing why I couldn't function as a "normal" person because of my ADD, no matter how hard I tried, I can assure all of you that if Steve keeps trying to "fit in" in any job situation without getting any counseling or guidance on how to do it, he will continue to fail. He might fail many, many times over a period of a lifetime, but the best he will do is to maybe barely survive but never break out of poverty. And then he will become depressed.

He needs to be given some assistance in how a person functions effectively in a workplace, and he needs to find out what he's good at. If he works in a situation in which his ADD will cause problems for his employer, he's not doing either himself or his employer any favors.

Anyone who approaches giving advice on how to cope with disabilities using a condescending and patronizing tone, clearly has never been faced with the kinds of challenges that come with these kinds of disabilities, and is therefore not in a position to judge the maturity level of the person with the disability.

What Steve needs is an opportunity to develop a success mentality. He does not need more opportunities to reinforce his existing failure mentality.

Had his parents done a proper job of raising him in the first place, he would not currently have a failure mentality. I know this from my own experience of raising a child with ADHD as well as a specific learning disability. His parents now have an opportunity to help him get what he needs for his basic survival, which they did not provide him while he was growing up. They are the ones who chose to bring him into the world. They have a basic responsibility to make sure he has all of the basic survival skills he needs in order to get by in the world. They do owe him this.

Some day, they may need his assistance when they are old and decrepit. When that day comes, it won't serve them very well if he is so dysfunctional he can't even take care of himself. And if they just adopt a "fuck you" we don't owe you anything type of attitude, why shouldn't they expect the same from him when they are too old and feeble to take care of themselves? The answer is, they shouldn't.

What the hell do you people think families are for anyway? They are for nurturing, and helping the people you love. Geez.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: Cool Beans
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 10:49 AM

Never do laundry after 10 p.m. It'll make one or both of you cranky and unpleasant.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 10:44 AM

The longer I follow this discussion, the more sympathy I develop for the parents. We can all understand and sympathize with your special needs and all, but YOU need to look at the situation from their point of view: two supposed-adult freeloaders are camped in their small house, complaining that they're not allowed to sleep til noon. They're supporting the two of you, feeding you and keeping a roof over their head, despite some understandable ambivalence -- you really can't expect more than that, and you need to start making progress -- immediately -- toward making a change.

I was glad to see dianavan "break the ice" and introduce a bit of hardass realism, but have refrained from adding my own comments until now. But I've been on the other (parent's) side of a similar situation, so I have a point of view you may not to want to hear, but that you really need to consider.

First of all, please try to understand how and why offering them money is counterproductive and an insult. The best thing you can do for them from a finanial standpoint is to SAVE your money so that you can move out to a place of your own. Until that happens, every few dollars you throw their way only postpones your independence and your departure.

Also, while your disabilities and your legal situation may be insurmountable for now, you and Steve need to get over the attitude that HE is "unable" to be gainfully employed. Regardless of how "his brain works" and how sensitive he might be, he needs to suck it up and take financial responsibility for himself, at least, if not for the two of you (as he should).

Sure, flex-time self-employment would be better for him -- as it would be for me, too, or for anyone -- but until that happens, he should be flipping burgers, mopping floors, delivering handbills, whatever it takes. It won't last forever, but if he's ever going to grow up, he needs to be a man right now, go out into the cold cruel world, and make something happen. Quitting a job when you're broke and newly married because you're afraid the boss *might* let you go was just plain childish, and he *must* atone for that error.

If for no other reason, he needs to go job hunting just to get out of that tightly-packed household and free up some space for the rest of you. People with all kinds of disabilities function in the marketplace; encourage him and help him realize that he can too. If you don't, you -- with all your problems -- will wind up supporting him for the rest of your lives.

Sorry if this seems mean and unfeeling, but I'm only voicing *my* genuine feelings, and I think I speak not only for your in-laws but for any neutral observer who is not already predisposed to cut you an inordinate amount of slack due to your likeable personality, your talent, and your personal and medical history. Listen or not, take it to heart or not, respond or not -- up to you. I tried once before to make a practical suggestion and it was ignored (well, one poster mentioned it), so I have few expectations of making myself understood this time around. But I tried, there it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: hesperis
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 10:07 AM

...Especially when you have already begun to work on the real issues! Thanks to LilyFestre and CarolC especially.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 10:00 AM

Well, sweetie, you've stood a lot of thigs so far that were probably pretty tough to hear-- it took you this long to lash out, and that's pretty good. Now go back and read what pearls you missed when you saw red, OK? :~) You ARE among friends here. Try not to shut off the flow of help by throwing thunderbolts down on us, OK, we're only human! :~)

~Susan (ducking)

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: hesperis
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 09:51 AM

Ok, the advice in here is beginning to get absurd and to ignore everything I've said on the issue. Please read back over it.

I already only listen or compose music with headphones on. The problem is that there is nowhere in the house for QUIET TIME! There is a loud computer in two rooms, there are loud tvs in the other rooms, and the quiet room is one I am not allowed in even if it's ok with his brother. The only other room available is in a musty basement which would make me even more sick. I do not practice actual instruments because my teeth do not allow it anyway. That is not the issue here, please stick to the actual issues without inventing more.

Please READ what I have already posted BEFORE trying to give advice, then it might possibly be RELEVANT!

I'm sorry but it is very frustrating when people ignore everything that you've said and try to tell you what to do based on completely invented and false information.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 09:37 AM

Mary Garvey is right on, all of it.

If you are going to be an ally with anyone in the house, be an ally with Steve, a good one, an encouraging one, more a support than an advocate. Let your maw in law see what you love about her baby. Tell it to her in private, thanking her for borning and raising him, and then let her see it that love in your face and in your actions.

Let her thank God every night that you are in his life, and let her mother you a little too because she is, after all, a mother, and yours is not handy. She won't do it exactly as you long for her to do it, but maybe even better.

You can never go wrong in any endeavor by bringing more love into it and by giving it as a freely-made gift with no strings. You can never go wrong holding the door open so more love can flow in.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 12:13 AM

What do you mean he is non-verbal? Just because he's quiet doesn't mean he's non-verbal. Is he an elective mute? Is he a product of learned helplessness? That occurs when everybody caters to your needs to the degree that you can do nothing for yourself.

You say he isn't hyperactive. Maybe he is attention defecit without the hyperactive component. If he has difficulty attending to tasks and can't seem to concentrate, it may be a result of growing up with an autistic sibling. Families can become dysfunctional when dealing with children who are severely disabled. Perhaps you should learn more about autism. The idea of discussing a room change with the autistic brother is out of the question for many, many reasons.

If his brother has autism, there must have been a large degree of routine in the house to accomodate his needs. This should have helped him as well as his brother. Maybe Steve has aspberger's syndrome. Sounds more probable than ADHD. I think counselling for you and your hubby will help you to get to the bottom of the many problems you have presented.

I am still very curious about your calcium allergy. Ragweed I can understand but how did you manage to grow if you are allergic to calcium? Calcium is needed to build bone. I have difficulty digesting calcium but it isn't an allergy. Can you explain this to me?

I can understand how frustrating this is for you. I get frustrated reading about it! Keep searching for answers and don't expect anyone to change to meet your needs. Sounds to me like you're doing all the work in this relationship. How does hubby spend his liesure time?

d

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: mg
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 11:03 PM

Let's revisit the basement issue. You can move more stuff down there. You might have to get rid of some of the stuff that you are saving for when you move out, but you need sleep and privacy more than you need items for a future apartment. When that happy day comes, there are thrift shops, probably stuff from that basement, freecycle etc. Your first priority has to be your health and your marriage, not stuff. The world is full of stuff. You can get more if you have to jettison some now. When you move out, you will basically need a bed, a card table and two folding chairs, and a couple of comfortable chairs. So get rid of what is not essential if you absolutely can not cram more stuff in the basement and clear out Steve's room of all but your immediate clothing needs.

Go to your computer and make up some fliers for Steve, and you if you are healthy enough, to do yard work for others and odd jobs. Or shovel snow or whatever. Can he paint? Do housework or janitorial work? Wash windows? If he doesn't have a job he should be scrambling for odd jobs. There are probably elderly people nearby who could use help with cleaning, driving, shopping or whatever. If he can not find even odd jobs, with you as his very active agent, then he should do volunteer work or be in a training program. Don't encourage him to wait for the perfect opportunity to present itself Take whatever is available and build from that.   

Since you grew up in perhaps a chaotic environment, you might not understand commonly accepted boundaries...I strongly urge you not to use his parents' bedroom for anything whatsoever. Don't set foot it in it, even if invited. Only listen to music with headphones on. Do not practice any instruments when others are in the house. Get out of the house daily...it sounds like there is a bookstore nearby. that is good How far away is the library? Do not try to gang up with the autistic brother to argue or vote against the parents. Just fix up your little nest to sleep in and do a bit of computing, and use the great wide world to do the rest of stuff in.....Don't rearrange the furniture except in your own room. Load the dishwasher in whatever compulsive way the mother in law has developed. Just try to keep a low profile and get out as soon as you can manage it.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 10:19 PM

You are absolutely correct. A person with ADD or ADHD must have a behavioral strategy in coordination with any other efforts. That's a start. I think it would be wise for him to have a psychological done and a baseline established to help coordinate efforts. What precipitates his reactions, what antecedants are noticed that lead to difficult situations for your husband? (Just questions to ask yourself...I'm not looking for the answers to that!) Once those areas are finely pinpointed, changes are easier to implement and follow for everyone....as this will/does effect everyone who interacts with him on a daily basis.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: hesperis
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 10:07 PM

The thing about ADHD is that a lot of different conditions and causes seem to be lumped into one catchall diagnostic category. Then people are diagnosed with ADD or ADHD and put on medications without other alternatives being put forward. There's a lot more research now, and as usual medication is not enough without behavioural strategies as well. Sometimes only behavioural strategies are required, depending on the type and severity of the ADD.

This site discusses some other causes of attention-deficit and/or hyperactive behaviours, as well as the classic cause. A lot of the books have their own terms for the different so-called types of ADD: "outward" or "classic"; "inward" or "internal"; "hyperfocus" or something else; "ring of fire" for when it seems to be all types of ADD at once. Some of these might be brain defects, but a lot could also just be brain differences that are also contained in the continuum of normal brain functioning. Differences are necessary for diversity, after all.

Previously it was posited in psychology and brain research that any non-normal functioning was aberrant in a BAD way and the functioning must be "restored" to normal. But some differences are positive, and who determines what is actually normal anyway?

Steve is not hyperactive at all and has always been a rather quiet person even as a kid. He is non-verbal, highly intelligent in visual and kinesthetic and idealogical ways, highly creative in the way he processes information and in his ideas, highly scattered and tangential in thought patterns, and extremely sensitive to abuses of authority. He's had some vocational testing but it was inconclusive (basically, "you can do pretty much anything" which doesn't really help much).

I talked to his mother, so there is the beginning of dialogue now.

Apparently his father might be ADD as well, but has built up such a routine for himself that he appears to not be ADD at all - he appears to be merely a fairly strict authoritarian. (That is actually one of the things discussed in the books we read, that people who cope well as adults with ADD often have created routines that allow them to function.) I think he's been putting a lot of pressure on Steve because they're so similar that he thinks what worked for him should work for Steve. Unfortunately it's not that simple, and that attitude makes him difficult to talk to about things.

Steve's mother said that it's been difficult to help him because too much attention caused him to withdraw and not be able to express to them what he needed... and too little made him feel neglected. That's probably a result of his frustration with the non-verbal way that he functions compared to what is expected.

She said that they had tests for him before moving to another city, but that since he was doing well in school they never really did anything with the test results.

He might have been doing well academically but he was frustrated and underachieving, and also internalizing his problems. Of course, with his brother being autistic they also had their hands full with a child who was being a behavioural problem far worse than Steve.

The only things we can do now are to get Steve some vocational testing, perhaps a mentor who's had the same type of ADD and other problems and dealt with those, and some hands-on training (hopefully paid training so that we can stay together).

His sensitivity to the wrong forms of authority makes it difficult for him to even discipline himself. So a lot of the tips for how to deal with ADD won't work in this situation. But we'll start with the strategies we can actually implement, and go from there.

I would not be able to do paid work until 3 months after we get our application together. I'm unsure about volunteer work... Unless he's working at that time they might just throw out the application on grounds of lack of ability to support the spouse through the time required.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: mg
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 09:18 PM

I can't see from anything you have written why you would even want to sleep in a noisy computer room. Sleep in Steve's room. Put mattresses on the floor if you have to and flip them up during the day. How would they know how much you were sleeping unless you were in a public room. Tell them you were having sex for three hours if they should ask. They won't ask again. What are the exact dimensions of Steve's room? It looks from here like you have to sleep there and maybe keep one desk. Put your clothes in duffel bags, use them for bolsters and one person can sit on the bed and use the laptop, or take the laptop into the computer room, using earphones. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: Gypsy
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 09:05 PM

PLEASE don't throw things at me.......but have you considered going to mental health (here i go again, with county agencies. When you do the amount of church work that i do, you utilize EVERY resource) If you and himself are not totally opposed to meds, mental health SHOULD be able to get them to you, free, or at a greatly reduced cost. There is also a way to get meds greatly reduced, directly from the manufacturer, depending on what they are. And as one who suffers from chronic depression, sleeping that much is one of my symptoms. Of course, it is a symptom for alot of other things too.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 08:33 PM

There's a lot to read, but for those who want to know more about Hesperis's health, this old thread is a good place to start: Making Dreams Come True

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 06:17 PM

If Steve is still living with Mom and Dad, is he able to use any of their health insurance benefits? I'm thinking the answer is no because he is married now and likely no longer considered a dependent.

I'm not big on medications, but quite honestly have seen MANY people who have benefited from medications now available for ADD, ADHD. There are several and often they take time to find the right dosage and combination but they do frequently prove to be beneficial. At this point, what could it hurt for him to try something else? Even when you are sponsored here and can work, a diagnosis of ADD or ADHD isn't going to supply you with any huge disability funds. Are there agencies in the area that work with folks with challenges? Have either of you contacted Social Services to find out what kind of assistance they could offer job/training wise? How long will it be before you are allowed to work in this country?

As for your computing, can that be done at a local library or university library? Perhaps that would save on some space. Also, why is it that you require so much sleep and are sick often? I'm pretty sure it's none of my business but I am curious. I think we all require different amounts of sleep. I can function with 6 but require 8 to be feeling well and not half dazed. My husband functions with 4-5 hours of sleep a day...I don't know how he does it, but he does. You are at the other end of the spectrum and I guess my question would have been better stated as do you have a chronic condition that involves so much sleep?

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:56 PM

dianavan, both hesperis and I suffer from allergies to things that "normal" people wouldn't consider possible. I know exactly what she is talking about. She is most definitely not putting you on. I, myself, am highly allergic to vitamin B6. This means that when I consume something with what would be, for other people, a healthy dosage of vitamin B6 in it, I get sick, and the B6 does me more harm than good.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:47 PM

hesperis, could you point me in the direction of the new research you and Steve found about ADHD? (Unless it's the NAET stuff. I already have that.)

It sounds like you and Steve have the beginnings of the solutions to your problems. That's a very good start. I know the getting from here to there part is not always the most pleasant, but it does look like you have something to work with now, and a direction in which to proceed. That's a very good thing to have.

Tell Steve I know exactly how he feels. I was in his same situation when I was his age (except that I didn't know about my ADHD until a more than a decade later).

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 05:00 AM

My stepson was clinically hyperactive - which was or is very similar to what is now called ADD or ADHD. His mother (she is dead now) helped to teach him to make lists so he did not forget things, and to take charge of managing his life so that he could function best within it.

In his mid-teens he discovered that marijuana reduced the tendency towards ricocheting off the walls.

He got a first in philosophy at university.

It's about managing - taking charge in stead of coping. Most people with ADD and ADHD are intelligent but need to structure the way they use the intelligence. For this they need informed support and advice, but they must take (a gradual process) responsibility. Also, most people with it need very little sleep, so you and he could maybe swap beds. Family counselling may help here. Family counselling may be very important, because the walls have gone up and you and his parents are not now working with each other but against each other.

Elevated bed is probably a good start. Share one computer with two ID's on it in the desk area under the bed for "quiet" computing, and there will probably be room also for one small clothesrail in there as well. Another possibility is a flip-up bed.

Shelve and sort the cupboard (if parents will permit). It is quite fantastic how sorting a stuffed space can make more space from nowhere. You will probably be able to get either a small chest of drawers in the bottom, or shelves for your clothes, or even a pull-out or flip-out shelf to use the laptop on. Otherwise set up the laptop with two IDs too and use it in the other computing room when quiet to work is not so absolutely essential.

You may then be able to sleep in his bed (particularly if elevated) when you need extra sleep. You may also be able to go to bed early in it when the other computer room is in use.

Teeth can make you really ill. Make teeth a priority. Maybe even suggest to his parents that it is POSSIBLY (no guarantees) that that is making you ill and if you can raise some money will they match it. If you are regularly ill, something needs treating.

Huge sleep requirement is also often contributed to by depression. I could point you in the right direction for some treatment here in the UK, maybe, but in the USA I have no idea. Support group possibly a good start. WHen I have been very sleep-deprived I have been known to snatch half an hour kip at lunchtime on, say, a park bench near work (sitting up) or even in summer when the grass is dry, lying on the grass.

Shelve and sort the basement too: this is something you can do together for there is probably enough space. You may even be able to involve his parents in it too, to show how you are trying to help. Of course you will need to ask first if you can do it. A very small oil-filled electric radiator with thermostat on "low" will dry most basements in a couple of weeks, and the extra electricity cost not even noticed (particularly if it can be done mostly on night rate electricity - I assume the USA has that). Then you maybe will have a music room so your playing does not impinge his parents space. Or then it might be usable for you and maybi him as well to compute.

Work: I like the idea of him as a telecommuter with you secretly doing the work. Another possible is perhaps to re-approach the job he left, explain why he left, explain his problem, and ask if he can try again. It may well be his boss was not about to be disappointed - that your husband was really doing OK and just doubting himself. In the UK your husband would have rights under the Disability DIscrimination Act (can't say for the USA) and moreover the employer could get brownie points towards any related quotas or quota targets he might be subject to. It is important that your husband manages his life so as to function in the community. Your and his parents support in this is necessary. Then if your husband also owned his telecommuting business and you just told people he was out when they phoned and then sent them emails in his name with the work done (tee-hee) you could be well on the way to paying back the money from his parents towards your teeth.

Change is essential. No change is not an option. It will only lead to adverse change.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 01:37 AM

Are you putting me on? A calcium allergy? Do you mean lactose intolerance?

d

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: hesperis
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:54 AM

I don't have parents. Haven't talked to my mother in months and she's not replied to calls or emails. I don't know if she's alive. She's been poor all her life anyway and wouldn't be able to help practically although it would be nice to talk to her about all this. My dad was an alcoholic and I stopped seeing him by my own choice when I was 9. I have no other family.

The best hope is to let his mother know about the new ADD research that we found. They might react differently after that instead of trying to make him (and me) be something he can't be.

A few friends donated to a fund so that I can get the last root canal needed. I don't yet have money for the crowns that will be needed after that. Once the root canal is done though I can go to community dental services for the other 90+ cavities, and then hopefully I'll have permission to work here and can earn the money for the crowns. (I used to be allergic to calcium and other important nutrients, had malnutrition from that and from being on welfare all my life, the teeth didn't form properly, yadda yadda. Not allergic to calcium anymore though.)

When we got married, he was working a good job, but only working part-time in order to disguise his difficulties with it. He began to get too distracted in it and quit before the boss would get so disappointed that he'd be fired again. I didn't know about the ADD, and he'd pretty much given up on himself when he quit the job very shortly after we were married. He thought he was the problem and only had to try harder, and couldn't try any harder. Now that we know, he can try smarter instead of harder.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:38 AM

heperis - Sorry to have been so harsh.

I don't think you are going to change them. It sounds as if they have been trying to meet their children's needs for a very long time. They probably don't realize that they may be contributing to the problems. Have you tried family counselling?

When you married their son, didn't you consider the fact that there would be financial difficulties? Did you expect the parents to take care of both of you? What about your own parents. Can they help?

Why are you so sick? You need to get your teeth fixed. They could easily be contributing to your poor health.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: hesperis
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:31 AM

Oh, I missed responding to Jerry:

That sounds really cool. We've been trying to support each other as best we can, and make each other happy, or help each other to realize what does make the other happy. There are things we enjoy that we can't share with each other. Some of those we might be able to share later, and some we won't. It's still cool to snuggle up at night, though!

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: hesperis
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:23 AM

The rooms:

Parents' bedroom - we stay out of it unless the tv downstairs is in use and we have permission to watch the tv in it. They have a HUGE room with a walk-in closet and an attached master bathroom. This area alone is 1/3 of the total upstairs. That's quite ok, they deserve it. His dad is very successful and his mother is able to be a housewife because of his success.

Guestroom - Second largest room, about 1/3 of the remainder and rectangular shaped. Where we can sleep as long as it is only 8-9 hours, which is not adequate for me because of health problems. I am not allowed to sleep elsewhere during the day, either, to catch up on the sleep that my body requires. During the hours of 9 am to midnight, that room is *expected* to be the family computer room: lots of battle noises from games, people playing music albums, etc. They won't use headphones on the computer, either, even when we offered to buy a pair. Even when they use the room until very late, we are expected to get up at 10 am at the latest. My body cannot function on that little sleep for long. (It may seem like a lot to you but seriously, I wake up tired unless I've had 12 hours sleep most of the time.) I sleep through alarms, etc. We've taken to locking the door occasionally so that I can function occasionally. I'm also sick very often and need even more sleep, and then they're upset that they can't use that room and that I smell bad when I'm sick... but there is nowhere else to sleep.

Steve's room - too small for a double bed unless we find another room for quiet computing, in which case we can move one of the desks out. It has a nook behind the stairs that has another desk.

Steve's brother's room - empty except for holidays as his brother has a semi-fosterage situation because of autism. I am not allowed by the parents to use this room and haven't had a chance to ask the brother if I could use it when he's away.

Basement - full of parental stuff and has some of our stuff (dishes from the apartment that Steve lost $6000 by living in, etc.) which we will need if we can actually manage to move out. No room for more of our stuff to move out of Steve's room. Too musty and full of stuff for me to use as computer space.

All the rooms on the main floor are open and not suitable for computing, especially since the tv is on a lot.


There are two possible solutions here and his parents don't want either one.

1) Clear out Steve's room into the basement as much as possible and get a double futon in there. I use his brother's room to compute in except during holidays when I'm sure I could use the bed for a few days. If his brother agrees to this then maybe the three of us could overrule their objection to it.

2) Swap Steve's room and the guestroom, which would allow me to sleep and allow computer access for everyone easily in Steve's "old" room. Steve at least uses headphones.

They do not want to set either solution in place, mostly because they are trying to force me to only sleep the "normal" amount of time, ignoring what my body actually needs, and completely ignoring when I am sick. Because according to them, it's excessive.

I appreciate the food, I appreciate having a bed at all. I do not appreciate that I don't actually LIVE here and that my needs except for basic food and basic-according-to-them shelter are completely ignored.

dianavan - I've cooked several times, they like my cooking, and supposedly they like my music. (Although they don't like me actually composing or practising music here, so although they like my music they don't want an actual musician living with them. It's ok because my teeth are too bad for me to play flute now.) Steve does yard work and often gets groceries. We dog-sit when they visit his brother. We've offered to pay rent and they've refused to accept it. Sure, we need the money, but we also need to LIVE not just exist. We are helping out around here. That's not the issue. The sleep/privacy/room usage and the attempts at controlling not just our behaviour but who we are, are the issues.

Gypsy - Thank you!

kat - he has ADD and is very bright but so far has not had adequate treatment, encouragement or support. They've concentrated all efforts on his brother since his brother was an active problem, not just an underachieving problem. They also thought that he had a higher-functioning form of autism so tried to treat him with the same strategies as they treated his brother. He does not have autism, and it only took me half an hour of online research to determine that. (Besides which the doctors he went to earlier in life diagnosed ADD and not Aspergers.)

The medications he was on in high school did not work for him and might have caused even more of a problem. Besides which, if he got disability benefits he would not be able to sponsor me, and he really would prefer to work. He just doesn't know what he's capable of yet. (Also, after seeing me on welfare, he's rather determined to never have to go on it!)

We went to the bookstore today to look up books about the link between ADD and certain MBTI personality types, as I saw some books on amazon that might give him a clue what jobs to go for that he wouldn't get fired from. A lot of interesting information. We'll also be looking for testing and training that he would be suited for. WYSIWYG is helping us to find programs and agencies.

We haven't had a chance to talk to the parents about the ADD issue yet, but will do so. Hopefully they'll be able to listen more to what we actually need from their support once they know that, instead of trying to force us to be normal.

If not, we'll unfortunately continue to be unable to function well enough to... well... function. That's what happens when you get the support that other people think you should get instead of getting what you actually need.

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 11:10 PM

Also, if he is truly unable to work full-time, has he been diagnosed by a doctor, as to some sort of disorder? Something for which he could apply to receive disability benefits?

Has he applied for food stamps, medical healthcare, etc. to help ease the burden of support from his parents?

Subject: RE: BS: Newlywed Advice?
From: Gypsy
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:40 PM

Hesperis, PIC is the Private Industry Council...sounds like you need to be self employed, and they can help. Often times they will help with start up costs, advice, and leads. Might be worth a try. The only way i see you improving your situation is to be able to move out, and the only way to do that is to make$$$$$. EDD is another good source, the people are usually so grateful to hear that someone WANTS to work, they fall all over themselves to help. Or, a county job. One that offers telecommuting. Or, if you can't work full time, how about job sharing? A friend of mine did that as a meter maid, and did very well indeed. think the wage at that time was like 25$ an hour.
Time to think outside of the box. Government agencies are there to HELP you, utilize them.