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BS: What did Jesus look like?

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Subject: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:29 PM

I got the idea to ask this because of something Martin said on that other thread...

So, what did Jesus look like? Well, he is usually seen depicted in the art of a European-based culture, which naturally co-opts him and makes him look European...often with blue eyes even! That seems unlikely to me.

My guess is that he looked like most other Judeans in that part of the Middle East at that time, meaning...he was probably dark-eyed, with dark hair, and a brown skin tone. That's my guess. He probably looked like an Arab, a Lebanese, or a Sephardic Jew. A semite, in other words.

What do you think?

As for you who don't believe he even existed...just sod off and start your own thread about whatever subject you like to talk about! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: jaze
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:39 PM

I would imagine your're probably right, Little Hawk


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:13 AM

My brother.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:19 AM

He looked a bit Jew-ish, as Beyond the Fringe would say.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:54 AM

Yes, but all Jews don't look alike.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: LadyJean
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:59 AM

I would suspect that he looked like Rembrandt's paintings of him. The Dutch painter lived in a Jewish area, and, apparently, used his neighbors for models.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:09 AM

I think he looked just like any guy you might run into in the marketplace, or maybe down at the seaside fishing. Anyone you might expect to find throwing the money-changers out of the temple, or chatting about his spiritual beliefs.
Come to think of it, he probably looked quite a bit like you, Little Hawke.
Not that I expect you to die for my sins of course...


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:21 AM

The Bible gives no specific description of what Jesus Christ
looked like, and there are no known images of Him in existence,
such as there are, for example, for Roman emperors (e.g. Emperor
Nero), or actual "faces from the past" that can be seen with the
Egyptian Mummies.

There are however some very good indications of what He did,
and did not, look like -

There was nothing unusual about His appearance. Throughout the
Gospel books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, people made no
mention of something different about how He looked.

If anything, people wondered how such an ordinary-looking man
could be The Savior. John The Baptist would not have known that
his cousin was The Savior (their mothers, Mary and Elizabeth
were related) unless an angel had told him just before Jesus'
baptism at age 30 (John 1:33).

The mob that came to arrest Him The Fateful Night could not
tell Him apart from Peter or John or any of the others - Judas
Iscariot had to actually point Him out (Matthew 26:47-49)
and even then Jesus had to identify Himself, twice, to those
who demanded Him by Name as He stood right in front of them
in the bright light of their torches (John 18:3-9).

Jesus had a natural, rugged appearance. He did hard outside
physical labor, with Joseph in Nazareth, until He was about
30 years old. Back then, the building trade involved very
strenuous physical labor with heavy stone and lumber, without
any sort of power tools or mechanical digging equipment that
are in use today.

Unlike many religious pictures that portray Jesus as a pale,
skinny, effeminate man with long hair and wearing a flowing
white or pink robe, Christ could have looked nothing like that.

His appearance would definitely have been that of a tanned,
muscular, physically-fit young man dressed in durable and
practical clothing - which made Him indistinguishable from
the "blue-collar" Fishermen who were with Him when He was
arrested. The prophet Isaiah confirms His ordinary appearance -

"He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to Him, nothing in
His appearance that we should desire Him. He was despised and
rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces He was despised, and
we esteemed Him not.

Many portray Jesus Christ as having long hair. Hair styles
and socially-acceptable length have varied tremendously over
the ages, sometimes very short, sometimes very long.

Most religious artists portray Christ with long hair. The man
in the Shroud of Turin also has long hair. But did Jesus have
long hair?

The apostle Paul (see On The Road To Damascus) actually saw
Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 9:1). Paul, a trustworthy man
who wrote a large part of the New Testament, knew exactly what
The Lord looked like.

In 1 Corinthians 11:14, Paul wrote, "if a man has long hair,
it is a disgrace to him." It's quite unthinkable that Paul
would have made such a statement if Jesus Christ had long hair.
How could anything about The Lord be called disgraceful?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:35 AM

"The Famous and most Memorable Works of Josephus" describes his mental greatness and his ability to "capture" with words. No physical description is given of Him so he must not have stood out from the average man of that area in those days. Human nature dictates that if he had looked different, it would have been documented. So your description, LH would seem to be accurate...Maybe we will find out one day eh??
Best wishes, Mike.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 05:31 AM

I've always thought of him looking a bit like Steve Guttenberg, only taller.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Cluin
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:36 AM

Norm Abram of the "New Yankee Workshop".


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:15 AM

Why his father of course!
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:30 AM

The African American church that I attended in my chidhood & youth always portrayed Jesus as a white man with long flowing brown hair..

The fact that there were/are no photos of God didn't stop me from visualizing Him as this statesman looking White man with long staight white hair & beard who sat on a throne upon the clouds with a huge book in his hands. I believed that in this book God wrote down the actions of every individual each moment of every day...

But when I was approaching college age I became more of a free thinker. One Sunday it was my turn to make a presentation on the Bible for the combined Sunday School classes. I decided to talk about "How we think of Jesus". I'm sure folks-including my mother who was then the Superintendent of our church's Sunday School thought that I was going to talk about the positive character traits of Jesus and exhort children & adults in attendance to model themselves after him...But instead

I said that there are no records of Jesus' appearance [now I know that may not be true] and there are certainly no records of what God looks like [true]. I then asked the question why do we as African Americans always picture Jesus and God as White? Why don't we think of Jesus as looking like this- At that point I asked I held up a phototograph of a handsome middle aged Black man that was taken from the cover of an Ebony magazine.

Needless to say the disapproval was so strong you would have thought I had held up a pornographic phototograph...

Years passed ..Years passed..and I find myself here on Mudcat making similar observations about what Jesus looked like..

See this excerpt about Jesus and others from

www.faem.com/books/blaksec1.htm


"[Jesus] according to the Bible, called the "Lamb" of God, with kinky hair compared with lamb's wool, feet the color of burnt brass (Rev. 1:14,15) and a likeness resembling jasper and sardine stone (sard/sardonyx), which are commonly "brownish" stones. (Rev. 4:3). ALL the earliest pictures and statues of Christ depict him as Black. In the catacombs of Rome where images of Jesus appear for the first time, black paintings and statues of Christ, the Madonna, Apostles and Biblical characters still survive from early Christian worship. The most sacred icons of the Catholic Church and also, prominent cathedrals in Europe are the Black Madonna and Christ child. In the British Museum, a gold coin struck in the time of the Roman emperor Justinian II, shows Christ with tightly curled, wooly hair. J.A. Rogers reports in Sex and Race Vol.1, p.292 that the Cambridge Encyclopedia Co. says that this coin places beyond doubt "the fact that Jesus Christ was a Negro."

Like Christ, ALL founders of world religions on ALL continents were BLACK and "woolly" haired, including the earliest gods.
Buddha was Black, that's why his woolly hair is always shown in small tight curls, pepper corn style or corn rows. Early sculptures of him clearly reveal his Aficoid features ...wide nose and full lips. So was Zaha of Japan, Fu-Hsi of China, Tyr of Scandinavia, Quetzalcoatl of Mexico, Sommonacom of Siam and Isis of Egypt and Rome. Krishna of India was "blue-black," in fact his means black, or the Black One! (see dictionary). He is always portrayed with blue or blue-black skin. Mohammed, founder of Islam was also 'bluish' in color with 'frizzy' hair. His grandfather was "black as the night." Moses was Black according to Mohammedan tradition and early portraits. His hand would turn white, then back to his "other flesh" when God wished to give him a sign. (Ex. 4:6,7). Lao Tse of Taosim was "a divine incarnation ...born of a virgin black in complexion and as beautiful as jasper." (Thorton: History of China Vol.1) The chief title of Osiris, the greatest of Egyptian gods means "Lord of the Perfect Black." He was also called "The Great Black," similar to Krishna. The chief title of Zeus, greatest of the Greek gods was "Ethiops" which means "burnt faced." Early statues of gods in India have Africoid features and woolly or locked hair. The name of the Mexican god Ixtliton means "blacked faced." In fact, many ancient Mexican gods are portrayed jet black with Africoid features. Once banned, The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors, by Kersey Graves reveals remarkable knowledge on this subject, along with Anacalypis by Godfrey Higgins and African Origins of the Major World Religions by Amon Saakana, ed. Many Bible stories are borrowed from ancient Egypt, Sumer and India, as documented in John Jackson's Christianity Before Christ."

end of quote

It is now not uncommon in certain African American circles to folks say that Jesus was Black and had hair like lamb's wool. This descriptor even shows up in literary works such as Alice Walker's "The Color Purple'.

Though I detest the N-word, I'll retain it this quote:

"Somewhere in the bible it say Jesus hair was like lamb's wool, I say. Well, say Shug, if he came to any of these churches we talking bout he'd have to have it conked before anybody paid him any attention. The last thing niggers want to think about they God is that his hair kinky..."
end of quote...ALice Walker, The Color Purple


Hopefully Mudcat responses to these 'theories' will be a bit better than it was to my 1963 Sunday School presentation at Union Babtist Temple Church, Atlantic City, New Jersey.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:34 AM

During his "earth-walk" 2000 years ago, I bet Jesus looked like any other Semitic man.

BUt today, Jesus appears however one expects him to appear. He's absolutely Perfect and Beautiful and just RADIANT with Joy and Love and Light!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,sandra in sydney
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:57 AM

Some years ago I was told by a man who who had studied theology at a Catholic college that in the 17th & 18th century females of negotiable virture modelled for Jesus in religious pictures.

I'm not sure where he found this, but he said it took him back to his schooldays when the Brothers pointed to images of Jesus to inspire the boys into living holy lives like the long haired sweet faced "boy" in the picture.

sandra


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:59 AM

Hey, ain't he the black guy with the W (with diagonal line thru it) button?...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:12 AM

The natural thing to do is to paint Jesus looking like someone from your part of the world. That means in Ethiopian icons (here or here) he'd look Ethiopian, in Italy he'd look Italian, in Germany, German, and so forth.

That got distorted the last few centuries by the fact that White Europeans have been swanning around pushing people around, and that included imposing a totally inappropriate kind of iconography.

It'd be a pity, now that that kind of rubbish is started to be shucked off, and churches in Africa and India are using images of Jesus looking African or Indian or whatever, if instead some kind of antiquarian imagery, trying to look historically accurate, were to be imposed on people instead.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:50 AM

He looked like a big girls blouse with his long hippy hair.

At least thats what my old dad used to say every saturday morning
he dragged me to the barbers for a short back and sides.

hmmm.. perhaps it would be fun to see 21st cent. revisionist right wing christian paintings of a new cleaner cut Jesus
in smart well pressed and starched robes
and a precisely cropped military marine style haircut.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:57 AM

There is a fine but meanignful distinction between Azizi's post and MofH's.

In Azizi's (one might presume) that he starts from the premise that Jesus actually did look like something, maybe not what has been traditionally assumed, but something. And, starting with that presupposition, Azizi's post begins to "sus out" what Jesus may have looked like -- attempting to deduce from legend and historical record.

In Mof H's condescending (to Christians) post, he starts with the presuppositional that Jesus is but myth, therefore it doesn't matter how one might portray him. If Jesus was not, in fact, an historical human being, then what's the harm in charcteriziing him however you want to? -- as long as it isn't Westerners doing the (mis)characterization *wink-and-a-grin*.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:59 AM

*daylia* your observation of how He looks now is both accurate and beautifully described. Thank you.
Best wishes, Mike.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:40 AM

In Mof H's condescending (to Christians) post, he starts with the presuppositional that Jesus is but myth, therefore it doesn't matter how one might portray him. If Jesus was not, in fact, an historical human being, then what's the harm in charcteriziing him however you want to?

You mistake my point-of view rather radically, I'm afraid. I think anyone seeking advice about what kind of church art to have in a new Catholic church in Africa, for example,would get advice in keeping with what I wrote there.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:49 AM

Jim,

Thanks for being able to see that difference in approaches...

However, if I may take a friendly exception to one thing you said:

You wrote that I had started from the premise that "Jesus actually did look like something, maybe not what has been traditionally assumed"...

I would suggest that the key word here is "traditionally".

What is traditional for one people may not traditional for other people. If we replaced the word 'traditional' with 'customary' which I believe it often means, I would agree that it has long been customary in the United States to portray Jesus as a White man with long brown hair...

However,just because this is the customary practice [in the United States] does not mean that this how the historical Jesus actually looked.

Also, [and this is a far less important point], maybe because 'male'is the default gender on Internet discussion forums, probably because Westerners are unfamiliar with my name {though this Swahili name is rather well known elsewhere as it is Arabic version Aziza"}, and certainly because there aren't any visuals of posters as blogging, I would like to note that I am a "she" and not a "he".

therefore I signing this as
Ms. Azizi

:O))


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:05 AM

I also agree with Daylia's notion of how Jesus (as a spiritual beging, that is...) looks now, given that the spirit of a great being has an altogether more shining and beautiful appearance than a physical embodiment does. Having actually seen such a being, I can testify to that. However, I was speculating as to what Jesus looked like as a physical being back then, which is a different matter.

Lots of interesting comments here, and a few funny ones too. :-)

Regarding Guest's opinion about the "long hair" issue...and yes, I have heard that particular quote from Paul in Corinthians any number of times: "if a man has long hair,
it is a disgrace to him."

It was routinely used by various fundamentalist assholes back in the 60's and 70's to harass and criticize young men with "long hair".

Well, here's my take on it. Number 1, Paul said a whole bunch of weird stuff, and I don't take it all as gospel by any means. Number 2, how "long" is "long" in a given culture? Most human cultures (but not all) have customarily tended toward women having longer hair than men for some reason. So, in medieval times, a man might have had hair that was shoulder length or just past the shoulders, while a woman might have had hair that was all the way down to her belt. In that case, the man would be seen to have "short" hair, and the woman "long" hair.

But to a 20th century Christian North American dressed in a suit and a red tie, a man's hair is "long" if it's more than 2 inches long!

I think that Paul was probably stating that a man's hair should be shorter than a woman's. A woman's hair, in Paul's time was probably typically waist-length, having never been cut at all or just the ends trimmed. A man's hair was probably shoulder lenght or thereabouts.

They would both have "long hair" by 1955 North American terms, but NOT by their own terms. Only the woman would have long hair by their cultural terms.

Got it?

So take your "long hair" BS and buzz off, anonymous one. There is no dishonor in a man having hair longer than what you happen to be culturally accustomed to, and if Jesus' hair wasn't all the way down to his waist, then I propose that it wasn't "long" in the terms of his day and age.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:12 AM

You can find a somewhat cartoony but responsible picture at this site.
Press "gallery" and then "Jesus." The artist's description is well worth reading.

http://www.reportret.info/


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:22 AM

HA HA! Azizi!! I am officially due one "Jimminina" from you! Sorry I didn't note the sari!

(and I don't disagree with your "traditional"/"customary" point.)

MofH,

With all the commas removed thus...

"It'd be a pity, now that that kind of rubbish is started to be shucked off, if using images of Jesus looking African or Indian or whatever, were to be imposed on people instead."

...the meaning is opposite of the way I took it. If that's the case, I agree with you and apologize for the mis-characterization I put to your post!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:30 AM

I am really amazed by that quote from the book which proposes to prove that ALL the great religious founders in ancient history were black!!!! LOL! That has got to be the most ethnocentric viewpoint I've seen in print since maybe...Mein Kampf??? Or is it a joke?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:34 AM

Azizi quoted, with evident approval:


Like Christ, ALL founders of world religions on ALL continents were BLACK and "woolly" haired, including the earliest gods.


You mean like Mary Baker Eddy, or Joseph Smith, or L. Ron Hubbard?

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:44 AM

How about the Bab and Baha'Ullah? (they were the founders of the Bahai religion in the 1800's, and they were Persians) Then there's Joseph Smith (Mormon). Was he black too? LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:16 PM

About fifteen years ago one of my freshman English students turned in a theme arguing that Jesus was Black. Her evidence was much like the above. It was a bad theme, unsystematically argued and full of poor diction, bad grammar, the usual for poorly prepared college kids.

When I failed the paper, the presentational errors corrected and explained, and with as encouraging a comment as I could think of, the student insisted the real problem was that I didn't believe Jesus was Black, so I was too bigoted to grade her fairly. But she did offer to "turn the other cheek" and not complain to my chairman. I urged her to do whatever she thought was right.

The point is that one shouldn't discuss religion unless one is prepared for some genuine give and take.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:21 PM

To all who might wonder,

My post wasn't a joke..

The quote was given to provide a different perspective than the Euro-centric statements about Jesus' looks that dominate most discussions on this subject [and they are legion].

You notice that I did refer to the excerpted quote as theories and not as actual facts.

I certainly don't agree with the person writing that essay that EVERY religious leader who ever lived was considered Black or would have been considered Black by the USA's extremely wide criteria..

In sharing that quote, I wanted to broaden the discussion by pointing out that there are some historical indicators that suggest that Jesus was certainly far from White.

And especially given the wide definition of who is considered to be 'Black' in the United States if Jesus looked like those in his area, I do believe that most people in the USA would consider him to be part of the 'Black race'...

And not so far way back when, he wouldn't have been allowed to sit in the front of the bus.

Also, I must apologize for not including the Biblical chapter and verse for the 'hair like lamb's wool' quote. If someone has the exact quote, I'd appreciate it being posted.

Also, I agree with the position that how Jesus looked is of FAR less importance than the beauty of his spirit.. I feel that anyone's physical appearance is far less important than the quality of her or his soul, personality, and mind.

Also Jim:
LOL!
not a sari...rather on days when I want to dress ethnic, a Senegalese dress or Nigerian loose blouse, long skirt, sash, and head wrap...Yes I know that I said my name is Swahili and that KiSwahili isn't 'traditionally' spoken in those nations...

but-besides creating our own things, us African Americans have a way of taking what we want from different cultures, mixing it up, and making it our own.

Ms. Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:42 PM

all one needs to do is ask Google

But face it...anyone wandering around what is now Israel or Jordan 2000 years ago would have certain features...ask the anthropologists what the basic characteristics were.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:50 PM

Yes, I realize that you were simply presenting a different perspective. No problem.

I thought, though, that it was a truly spectacular example of where enthnocentric thinking can lead! Ethnocentricity is often based on a sense of having been unfairly treated or victimized in the past.

Thus, I have seen quite notable ethnocentricity displayed by some Afro-Americans, some White supremacists, some Nazis, some Jews, some Native Americans, some Muslims, and so on...there are always certain individuals whose extreme sense of grievance leads them to become fanatical proponents of their particular tribe, nation, group, or race...at the expense of other people's rights and dignity.

It's not a pretty thing to see, and it leads to trouble.

Guest, Guy Who Thinks - it was your black student who was the bigoted one, and severely so! As someone who wholeheartedly supported integration and the achievement of racial equality in the 60's, I am very saddened to see what extremely negative attitudes some misguided members of the black community have adopted as a result of their own sense of having been victimized by society. They became the very thing they claimed to be against in the process of resisting it...racists.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,I'm a believer
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:30 PM

..did Jesus wear his sandals with or without socks ?
did he ever wear a hat ?
and what would he have put on if it was raining or snowing ?

my mum says I should always follow Jesus's example..
so what ought I to wear in winter if he wore sandals all year round ???


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:33 PM

prudent footwear. Your mother was oh so wise. You seem to be a wise guy yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:34 PM

I prayed on this last night, and had a dream. It was Kramer!
Wearing shoes with no socks in cold weather.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Weasel Books
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:46 PM

It doesn't really matter, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but just look at the facts we have. (also excuse the use of Negroid, if anyone can suggest a better term I will gladly use it)
He was definitely not black. Not northern European or Mongoloid either. A Semite. Like the basic protoype seen in Israel/Palestine, and Syria (ommiting the features that come from later people's, like the Arabian, yes use of the word is intentional, Sudanese, Greek, Circassian and Turkic), and from an old Jewish family. One of the family traits was red, curly hair, and ruddy skin (see David) which came from Moab. Never a mention of Negroid anywhere.
Working outside for most of his life, he was probably browned and weathered. Presumabely bearded, as any respectable and observant Jew would be (there had begun to be lapses, but the Galilee was more conservative). Skullcap too (even the Greeks tended to wear felt headcovers)
Hair would cover the nape for the most part, and there would be long side-locks.
You can say he was Negroid all you like, but it's as preposterous as saying he was Nordic. Just look at where he came from.
Nowadays there are plenty of Arabs with Negroid characteristics, but these are mostly descendants of 17/18/19/20th c. Sudanese slaves in the Bedouin society.
The common depiction of Christ in Western art, is actualy based on the face of Zeus (from the statue that was one of the 7 wonders).
I just hope nobody takes offence from anything written here, as none was intended.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:59 PM

Back in the old days the Kootenai Indians would cut their hair short as a sign of mourning. "Short" was shoulder length, or for deep mourning, earlobe length; both pretty long for the modern suit-wearinng man.

Back in the hippie days I remember reading that Jesus didn't have long hair, and I thought "But he has long hair _now_ -- look at the pictures." The exception was in Billy James Hargis' publications, where Jesus had a white-sidewall cut.

Would it make a difference to any of y'all if He looked like a darker Bill Clinton? What if He loked like Osama, who is from the same neck of the woods? Or the Pope? Or Tommy Franks or Tom Hanks?

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:14 PM

Discover magazine did a short piece on this a couple of years ago. The average male of that place and time was short, stocky, and had curly reddish black hair; probably cut at earlobe length. The only surprises were a broad short nose and thick lips.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:17 PM

Charlton Heston? No, that was Moses.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,punfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:40 PM

this site possibly covers most options;

http://www.jesusoftheweek.com/?city_id=phx


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Megan L
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:59 PM

Azizi tried to find the bible verse for you but these were the only three refering to hair colour i could find othere than looking for disease in leviticus :)


Song of Solomon 5:11
His head is purest gold; his hair is wavy and black as a raven.

Revelation 1:14
His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.

Daniel 7:9
"As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Megan L
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 03:04 PM

Meant to include this in last post
Man walks among us


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 03:10 PM

Eric


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:06 PM

Thank you Megan L., I appreciate your help.

It may be the verse from the book of Daniel that Alice Walker and others based the belief on that Jesus had hair like lamb's wool.

Not being a Biblical scholar, I can't speak further about the origin of this belief. But I can say that it is definitely part of African American folk culture as witnessed by Guest, Guy who thinks' African American student who fifteen years ago wrote a poorly prepared paper on the subject. it's too bad that student was so poorly prepared and then blamed her teacher and racism...I don't condone that. But I'd love to read a paper on this subject that wasn't poorly prepared-or one that didn't exaggerate to make its points.

In hindsight, if I hadn't been so eager to jump into this discussion because of my memories of introducing this topic to my church as a youth, I probably would have chosen an Internet source that wasn't absolutist in its assertions that all founders of religions were Black.

Certainly all founders of religions weren't Black. Yet the exaggerations of this particular article that I quoted above can't negate ALL the points that its makes.

However, in my opinion, it would be outside the scope of this particular thread to debate or discuss those points.

Ms. Azizi
[who lives & learns and is not afraid to admit a mistake]


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:13 PM

The Jesus who appears in Spirit...in a vision...could very well look quite different from the physical man, Jesus, who was crucified in Judea 2,000 years ago. I think that point is well worth considering when discussing such a passage from Revelations...or the one from Daniel. Those are spirit beings that are being described, not the physical man, Jesus.

And the one in the Song of Solomon, again, is a spirit being, I'd say.

One would not expect a spirit being to look just the same as a physical being. At least, I wouldn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Bert
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:16 PM

He was from the Middle East. Probaly looked something like an Iraqi.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:28 PM

You did a bit more than "take the commas out", Jim...

The point is, there's a historical Jesus, and obviously enough, as a Palestinian Jew, he'd have looked like a Palestinian Jew.

But when it comes to religious images , the relevant thing isn't givinh a picture of what he actually looked like, but providing a way of bringing him home to worshippers as someone who is close to them, a brother, a son. That's what the Incarnation is about, when you get down to it. So the best way to paint him is portray him is like that, not as someone who looks like they belong in a distant country, some kind of tourist.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:28 PM

There ya go. :-) Somebody tell George Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:33 PM

well then, MofH, I again disagree. Christianity, at its best, is not a construct of human imagination. If I thought that it was I would not include myself as a Christian.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 05:02 PM

Did I say anything like that? We use our imagination, along with all our other facilities to try to help us appeciate and make sense of of the things that aren't in front of our eyes, but that's something else completely.

You really think that religious painters through all those centuries, painting pictures of nativities in Flemish cowsheds and Italian barns and all that, with everyone wearing contemporary local costumes, thought that they were showing things the way they actually were back in First Century Palestine? (For example.) Except that, getting down to what matters, and leaving aside the superficial stuff, that is precisely what they were doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Weasel Books
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 05:15 PM

McGrath, I think you made a great point. Artisitc licence is just that. If it helps you get the message across, thats fine. I think El Greco has painted some of the most beautiful images spiritualy, but they are definitely not historical represantations.

Azizi, the verse from Daniel (and Revelation) says his hair was white AS wool. You could easily have substituted snow or something else for the wool. This was a pastoral society. Images were used that they could most easily relate to.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 05:17 PM

I was flyin' back from Lubbock
I saw Jesus on the plane
... Or maybe it was Elvis
You know, they kind of look the same...

     -Don Henley [or maybe it was Geo. Dubya]


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 05:22 PM

It's interesting to look at the very earliest pictorial representations of Jesus, among the early Christians. If anyone would, they would know. They show a fairly short-haired, clean-shaven Jesus.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 05:30 PM

I think Jesus did exist but from a non-Christian point of view, I have always thought of him as a black African. Early Christianity seems to have started in North Africa and spread to Ethiopia long before Europe was converted. There seems to be plenty of evidence that the mothers of St. Augustine and St. Thomas of Aquinas were black.

Perhaps we are imposing on the religions (Jewish and Christian) a racial way of thinking that wasn't as prevalent in those days.

Jews and Christians alike were probably of many colours.

Jesus could easily have been black, white, or all the shades in between. As far as the white hair goes, maybe he was prematurely white. In any event, Christianity gained its momentum because it opposed Roman (white) rule. Of course Rome eventually assimilated the Christians by giving them central authority in Rome but thats another story.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 05:34 PM

I guess that we're obviously talking about two different things, MofH.

If you're saying that it doesn't matter how Jesus is portrayed because, after all, he wasn't a real, historical person, rather just a figment of religious imagination -- then I would take exception with you.

If, on the other hand, you are merely saying that it is a reasonable exercise to use the arts in a manner to better help us understand the historical person, Jesus, or aspects about him that are not as easily conveyed in concrete terms as they might be through the arts -- then I wouldn't disagree. In fact...

..one of my favorite artist renditions of the incarnation is the movie "Phenomenon" (with John Traovolta). A movie that never made any claims to be portraying Jesus -- but did none-the-less.

The confusion -- and the line I think you seem willing to cross, but that makes me uneasy -- is that you seem to be saying that it is okay to portray Jesus in whatever manner makes you happy, still claim that it is an accurate portrayal (in historical, anthropological, biophysical terms) of the actual man, Jesus, who walked the earth some 2000 years ago, and that's okay...

...And I'm saying that that is the exact kind of thinking that led to the blue-eyed blonde Jesus.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Weasel Books
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 05:46 PM

Uncle Dave,

Where are these coins from? It's interesting to note that by the 2nd c. beards had gone out of favour with most of the Jews, especially the fashionable ones. See the paintings at Dura Europas synagogue.
A lot of time had passed since Christ and fashions changed. Growing up in the conservative Galilee in a fairly observant background, Christ would definitely have had a beard.

Dianavan,
Umm, Armenia was actualy Christian long before Ethiopia I think.
And if someone was black, a colour that was unusual in the area at the time, you can be sure the Scriptures would note it. Have a look at Acts 8:27, for example.
The verses with the hair are in a spiritual context, white being the colour of purity and righteousness.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:01 PM

I suppose this (click) will forever be my visual image of Jesus, though I may hate myself for that at times. It's the picture my parents had hanging in the living room, so it's the one that stuck. I suppose I shouldn't complain. There are many that are far worse. The Divine Mercy image of Jesus is taking the Catholic Church by storm, complete with its "Jesus I Trust In You" inscription computer-pasted over the original Polish inscription. We nearly had a palace coup in our parish when the new pastor too down our larger-than-life Divine Mercy posters from the sanctuary.

Still, I think I'd rather have no visual image at all, or maybe something impressionistic or an icon - an image that leaves a lot to the imagination.
The National Catholic Reporter is THE periodical for us liberal Catholics in the U.S. A few years back, the newspaper asked for submissions of images of Jesus, and you can find a few of them here (click) I have to say I'm more comfortable with the image we had in the living room. They're all interesting, but the winner and some of the others seem to have an "agenda" attached. This page (click) says the winning picture is sure proof that Roman Catholicism is witchcraft.

Hmmmm. Maybe they don't realize that many right-wing Catholics consider National Catholic Reporter to be heresy....

-Joe Offer-

This page (click) has some interesting modern images of Jesus.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:04 PM

Minsunderstanding cleared up, I think Jim. Basically, I think it's better to read the Gospels in the language we speak rather than in Aramaic, which doesn't mean the Aramaic version isn't the basic one. And the same thinking applies to pictures.

Nothing wrong with a blue eyes blond Jesus as a way of helping Swedes recognise Jesus as someone whoi belongs in Sweden - but everything wrong when that image gets presented to black Africans with the message that Jesus isn't like them, but is like the settlers who've been pushing them around.

And nothing wrong with trying to get an image of him that reflects how he would have been, back in First Century Palestine, especially since that can be a way of reminding people that being any kind of a Christian isn't compatible with being a racist or an anti-semite.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:12 PM

Yes Yes I know.
"Hair as white as lambs' wool" and "hair like lambs" wool does not mean the same things as 'wooly hair'

This verse may or may not be the verse that some African Americans base the belief that Jesus was Black with wooly hair.

If I knew Alice Walker I would ask her where she got this saying from and what made her make her character say it..{I believe it was Nettie in "Color Purple".

Upthread mack/misophist wrote this about Discover magazine's piece of what the average man looked like in Jesus' time and geographic area:

"The average male of that place and time was short, stocky, and had curly reddish black hair; probably cut at earlobe length. The only surprises were a broad short nose and thick lips."

All I can say to that is there's a bunch of African Americans that would fit that description-and quite a lot more who look as White as- well- most of you Mudcat posters.

The only reason why this matters so much is that Western society has put 'white people' on such a pedestal that many Black people-in particular-but also many other people of color need to search so hard for people who look like them to look up to...

Frankly it doesn't matter to me WHAT the historical Jesus looked {looks} like. But for some it matters.

And to them I say if it helps you emulate Jesus to say he looks like you {or like some people in your race} more power to you.

Ms. Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Weasel Books
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:32 PM

But aren't most of the lighter African Americans a result of interbreeding (not always marriage)?

Not all broad noses and fleshy lips are African, nor do all Africans fit that description either. Many Jews and Arabs still have fleshy lips. Curly hair too, WITHOUT looking African at all (not that all Africans are Negroids).

McGrath, if you could read Aramaic then it would be better to read the New Testament in that tongue. Why rely on translations if you don't have to?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:54 PM

Weasel-

We (and I mean all people) are so inbred that to ask if African Americans are lighter or darker, depending on interbreeding is a moot point. White people aren't actually white, either. Unless you happen to be Albino. Fact is, people come in all shades.

Jesus was probably closer to the black end of the spectrum than the white end.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:01 PM

He definitely looks like Eric


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:22 PM

My mother-in-law gave me a picture of Jesus with a bleeding heart. I guess that means he was a liberal. What do liberals look like?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Weasel Books
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:23 PM

Well I had ment 'black' interbreeding with 'white'.
And when I used those terms I ment the general, unscientific meaning.
Towards the dark end of the spectrum, I agree, but much lighter than the average African. More an 'olive' tone. Just as the Semitic type isn't exactly European, it isn't African either. If we accept he came from Palestine/Israel then we should accept he wasn't African either (or European or Mongoloid or anything else). Blacks are as native here as whites are in Sub-Saharan Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:43 PM

did anyone READ that page that Joe Offer noted? They have such a narrow image in their heads that they use terms like "complete abomination" and "occultist" and "Satanic" to describe someone's attempt to paint an inclusive picture!

No matter what the 'truth' is, it is a fact that none of the biblical quotes or descriptions were written by anyone who met the historical character. Every important aspect of every major religion has been tweaked and glossed and embroidered by the faithful for centuries until you can find someone willing to kill for any specific interpretation...

*sigh*...and they wonder why atheists don't fall into line....


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:01 PM

As for you who don't believe he even existed...just sod off and start your own thread about whatever subject you like to talk about! :-) Typical LH ploy to silence the Brights by disallowing their opinion before the thread even begins.

Few of you fools have read Augustine, obviously, a man who encouraged deceit in order to further the interests of Christianity at all cost. Let's have a shred of evidence JC existed before you attribute physical features. Looks like a myth to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:22 PM

Guest; the great thing about America is that you can believe what you want.
Little Hawk; My guess is that he would pass unnoticed if you put him on the streets of Jerusalem, Damascus, Amman or even Bagdad. The truth of the matter in my opinion is that what he looked like isn't important. It's his message that we need to focus on. Respectfully, Neil


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:29 PM

Bill D - I read that page. It's horrifying. It sums up the worst in unholy religious fanaticism and intolerance.

Note, Bill: Some atheists DO fall into line! Chairman Mao's Red Guards certainly did, and so did Joe Stalin's commissars and his armoured divisions. Atheists are just as easy to regiment as religious people are. You just provide them with a cause, a chain of command, and a rigid authoritarian structure at the top to tell them exactly who to go out and kill.

******

Guest - You clearly have little appreciation of my sense of humour. I knew that it was inevitable that certain people who don't believe Jesus ever existed would see this thread as a golden opportunity to beat their particular drum on that yet again. We all love to beat our favourite drums. :-) That amuses me. I am even amused at my own tendency to do just that, and I certainly do it. With gusto.    When I use the phrase "sod off", I am joshing with people, because I am not British. It's a phrase I never use except in fun.

And...who are "the Brights", a New Age group of some kind? Please expand on that, if you would, because I love hearing about all the new spiritual and philosophical ideas that are out there...most of them have at least some merit.

********

Somebody pointed out that the white hair was a symbol of spiritual purity. No doubt. It also could be that a vision of a spirit being would shine shimmery sort of white all over. I saw one that did. I kid you not. It was silvery white in appearance, uncannilly like the image described of Jesus in Revelation in some ways. It was not Jesus, though, it was an Angel. That is the only such vision I have ever had in my life, and it was not due to the influence of any drug or anything like that. It was real. I have never doubted the existence of Angels since, and knowing they are there is a tremendous comfort.

I did not have the impression that the Angel was representing ANY organized religion, by the way. :-) It told me not to be afraid. That was the whole message. "Why do you fear? You are completely indestructible." That is exactly what the Angel said to me, and it clearly was not speaking about my physical body. It was speaking about my Spirit. My Spirit is the same as your Spirit, whoever you might think you are at the moment. You are probably much more than you think you are, because you too are indestructible, and valuable beyond measure.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Cobble
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:02 PM

Jesus is all things to all that believe, it is his spirit that counts not the colour of his skin. Im not a christian or moslem, but it's what he said that is the point. And looking at some of your feedback I see a lot of racism, the nazis thought the same way, the same old banter over again. I thought we were past all that, there are as many ways to God, as stars in the heavens, live together it's much better.

No one is wrong, they have there own way to the truth.

             Blessings be. Cobble.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:13 PM

Agreed on every count, Cobble. It doesn't matter in the least what Jesus looked like. I raised the question, because I thought it would stimulate some interesting discussion, and it has.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: LadyJean
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:21 PM

My friend Meg, who lives on Michigan's Upper Peninsula worked her first summer there in a guest house. It had originally been a convent, and the owner just left the religious statuary in place for decoration. Which is how Meg wound up dusting a large, pink sentimental, statue of Jesus.
Her fellow maid, Debbie, saw her at work, and explained that she was going about it all wrong. Debbie took the dust rag, and started walloping the dust off the statue with it, saying, as she did so, "There's three things wrong with this statue. First, Jesus wasn't pink. Second, he wasn't effeminate. And third, he didn't have to be dusted three times a week!"


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Pogo
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:25 PM

I can't remember who posted that bit from Isaiah but thanks...that passage is a deeply moving one for me. I adore it.

Yeah...truth of the matter is no it doesn't matter what Jesus looked like...it's what he taught and ultimately what he did. Still it is interesting to speculate what he looked like in his earthly form.

Jesus was referred to as the Nazerene (and am I right in thinking the Nazerenes were a particular religious group who didn't believe in cutting their hair among other things?), he was supposed to have been born in Bethlehem, he traveled through Galilee and Jerusalem. I take the side of the group that says he looked like the folk from that area, it makes sense to me on a lot of levels that he'd look no different from anyone else from there.

The thing about Paul and the long hair...that may have been related to the fact that he wrote for a primarily Gentile/Greek?/Roman?(not sure...having a brain fart) audience and he may have been addressing specific manners of dress and so forth that would have related to their particular tastes


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:25 PM

More importantly, what did Mithras look like?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:41 PM

You are absolutely right Greg! Anyone who thinks that Jesus was the one and only son of God should realize by now that the myths that grew up around Jesus being the Christ were originally the Zoroastrian and Hindu stories of Mithras.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:52 PM

Absolutely correct! The "virgin birth" was also an old idea that considerably predated Christianity, and was found in a number of earlier religions. In all probability, it was intended as a metaphor for spiritual purity, rather than the literal notion that the mother never had physical sex.

This was a subtlety which would entirely escape most believers, however, because they tend to be literal thinkers.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:28 PM

5 foot 2, eyes of blue, has anybody seen my God?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:08 AM

Some commentators describe Jesus as a Nazirite, but it's hard to tell from the New Testament wheter the term means he came from Nazareth, or if he was a true Nazirite, a person specially dedicated to God as described in the sixth chapter of the Book of Numbers. Part of the Nazirite vow involved not cutting one's hair. The best-known Nazirite was Samson. You know - the guy they named the luggage after.
But yeah, I don't think Jesus went for short hair, or that he shaved his head or anything like that. Maybe he looked like the guy on the Zig-Zag cigarette papers. That was another early image of Jesus I had.


-Joe Offer-

Has Anybody Seen J.C.? in the Digital Tradition.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: mg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:20 AM

Short, muscular, short hair, no beard, dark-skinned Palestinian but not African features. Next time you see a crowd of young Palestinian men find one with a roundish face and on the short side and there you go. He looks friendly, capable, strong but not God-like. That is my vision of him anyway. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: number 6
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:03 AM

'The guy on zig zag papers" Good one Joe ..... how about the sailor guy on the Players Cigerrette pack?

And jesus was a sailor
When he walked upon the water
And he spent a long time watching
From his lonely wooden tower
And when he knew for certain
Only drowning men could see him
He said 'all men will be sailors then
Until the sea shall free them'
But he himself was broken
Long before the sky would open
Forsaken, almost human
He sank beneath your wisdom like a stone
And you want to travel with him
And you want to travel blind
And you think maybe you'll trust him
For he's touched your perfect body with his mind.
.... lyrics by Leonard Cohen


sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:05 AM

After reading this thread I left mudcat to do a search on something else and I went into a site that had this page. So I went to check it out and found it to be pretty interesting and connecting with the thought of the black Jesus. It is an interesting read. Actually the entire site is interesting and I'm going back after I share this with you all.

PS. I still believe Jesus was part alien though.(smile)


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:43 AM

when i was about 17 and going through an experimental phase
of smoking too much dope and eating too many 'mushrooms',
my overactive immagination would scare me with thoughts

of "what if i was to discover i was a werewolf"
and
"what would i do if it was revealed to me that i was the
2nd coming of the son of god.."


freaky terrifying thoughts for a drug addled adolescent..
I got very paranoid about looking in mirrors..

though if it had turned out i was the chosen one after all,
i can tell you Jesus would have looked like a skinny spotty white
teenager with a rubbish hairstyle, dunlop tennis shoes
held together with gaffa tape, and a punk rock tee shirt
festooned with rock aginst racism/anti nazi league badges & safety pins..
and a ruck sack permanently ready with a sleeping bag,a bottle of Natural dry cider,digestive biscuits
and tins of heinz baked beans..
I was better prpared than the real one ever was with only loaves of bread and fishes..

thank *** i stopped doing recreational drugs entirely in my early 20's..

its a miracle i never grew up to be a serial killer..!!!
or a messianical cult leader..!!??


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Weasel Books
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 05:53 AM

Jesus was not a Nazir, that group of monks such as Sampson. He was Jesus of Nazareth, his hometown, which in Hebrew comes out as Natzrat. Nazir is spelled differently and has a z sound.
People were generally known by their father, occuptaion, or if venturing further afield, their place of residence.
Hope this clears up any confusion with Nazir/Nazarene.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Weasel Books
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:40 AM

Rustic Rebel,
The Hi-tech Jesus link you posted is fatuous, erroneous, racist and agenda driven. There is nothing to support their ridiculous, unfounded claims and they themselves promulgate crude Nazi and anti-Semetic propoganda.
They are trying to subvert history to their own means, disregarding anything that doesn't fit in, discounting some things that they say there is no evidence for, yet accepting other for which there is less.
Please PM me if you like and I will refute point by point.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Jeanie
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:14 AM

Here is a link to the reconstructed head created by forensic medical artist Richard Neave for the BBC documentary series "Son of God". Lots of interesting information (as well as the facial reconstruction) on that site.

- jeanie


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: *daylia*
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:55 AM

Joe, thanks for the links. The first one will forever be my visual image of Jesus too. It's been hanging in my parent's dining room all my life. I bet you'd find it in 99% of Catholic homes! And I do still love it ...

This is a British medical artist's interpretation of what a 1st Century CE Semitic man living at the time of Jesus would have looked like. Seems like a darker-skinned wooly-haired peasant Jesus is not too far off then, although that image certainly doesn't 'resonate' at all with me!

What a paranoid article at that last link, Joe!   How does the yin-yang symbol (of balance), or a feather hanging from a staff indicate "witchcraft"??? Seems to me it infers a comfortingly "multicultural" Jesus - one who's 'Big Enough' to welcome those who love Eastern philosophy, traditional shamanism, and yes even Wicca or "Witchcraft".

WHy would Jesus have a problem with feathers anyway? "Consider the birds of the field. They do not sew or spin and yet Solomon in all his glory was not bedecked in such finery" (sorry, I'm paraphrasing cuz I'm too lazy to look up the direct quote right now ...)

LH, I love your description of a spiritual Being. Thanks for sharing your awesome experience here. What I said about how Jesus looks now is NOT a 'notion'. I'll tell you about it sometime ok?

Mike, thank you very much for the confirmation and many blessings to you too!

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:58 AM

Weasel Books, on 29 Jan 05 - 05:46 PM said
"Armenia was actualy Christian long before Ethiopia I think"

I'm not sure when any Armenians accepted Christianity, but here's the information about Ethiopia:

The kingdom of Aksum officially adopted Christianity in the 4th century. But it wasn't before the 12th century (and up until the 15th) that Christianity spread, along with the Christian state, to the highlands of central Ethiopia. A remarkable collection of rock-hewn churches dates from this era. They were associated with monks, who were considered on a level with saints and whose lives were often recorded in writing. These monuments and manuscripts are still very important today as the living memory of Ethiopia's Christians.

http://whc.unesco.org/exhibits/afr_rev/africa-l.htm

This is just one of many other websites that provide information about Christianity in Ethiopia & tt has some interesting visuals.

Ms. Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Weasel Books
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:05 AM

The paintings from Dura Europas reflect the fashions of the 3rd cemtury. Beards had become unfashionable (except with the religious or conservative) and even head covers are barely depicted.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Weasel Books
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:10 AM

Christianity in Ethiopia is very old, but it is not the oldest, nor did it originate there.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:18 AM

Should they? dianavan.
Who should do or not do what is surely a matter of choice...I am eating an apple now dianavan..can you taste how beautiful it is?
Best wishes.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:08 AM

It's a bit thread drifty - but I was reading this thread, and somemone used the term "olive-skinned", meaning a kind of light brown, I imagine, and it occurred to me that all the olives I have ever seen have been either green or black. Strange how language goes sometimes.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:29 AM

I'm not sure but what the "olive" in "olive-skinned" doesn't refer to the color of the leaves of the tree rather than the fruit.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:01 AM

We may very well all be part alien, Rustic. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,ME : -)
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:10 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,ME :-) (again)
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:12 AM

Soz, accidently pressed enter. I imagine him looking like santa only not as fat. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:24 AM

By the way....

WHO is "Eric"???? I've been wondering.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:29 AM

Maybe Idle LH...as in Life of Brian.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:27 PM

Eric... Eric Hearble......

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:04 PM

I'm not sure but what the "olive" in "olive-skinned" doesn't refer to the color of the leaves of the tree rather than the fruit.


Like this you mean, Uncle Dave?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:34 PM

Georgian Silver - No offense intended. I know some people might be offended by the word, 'should'. I don't usually use it. Please let me re-phrase the statement.

If you care to learn about early Christianity, you will find that the Zoroastrian myth of Mithras was incorporated into the stories of Jesus. That probably took place in Armenia around 300 A.D. Romans were very good at consolidating local beliefs into a religion which could be governed by a central authority.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:37 PM

100 Amen.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:06 PM

And could you taste the apple I was eating dianavan?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:13 PM

Georgiansilver - I am missing the intent of your question.

I cannot taste the apple you are eating. I know that apples come in all shapes and sizes and that they also taste differently. I also do not know that your taste buds are the same as mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:16 PM

Seems to me that the Nativity story as we have it today is all there within the Gospels, which were written rather a long time before 300AD.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:37 PM

Interesting how I inspired this thread by Little Hawk.

I have to admit that I have not read every one's post in it due to some time contraints this weekend, but what inspired me about Jesus' appearance and throw out the window all of the spiritual mumbo jumbo is that Jesus was a Jewish man who looked like the picture in this article:

http://www.vcmagazine.org/vcm/article.asp?volume=5&issue=10&article=jesuslooklike

This picture and story ran in the newspapers a couple of years ago.

Kind of reminds me of my late Uncle Nate.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:42 PM

You are right, McGrath. The gospels were probably written 2-3 hundred years before 300 AD. Most people agree that the stories that were written were based on the oral tradition of storytelling. The Mithras legend was around long before the stories of Jesus and as I have stated before, the stories of Jesus were embellished with myths and legends of the local people.   

When I said 'around 300 AD' it was a rather arbitrary date based on the conversion of the Armenians to Christianity. It is a fuzzy area of history because the only people who really had access to the mighty pen, were the church fathers.

So - what did Jesus look like?

He probably looked well traveled. One thing for sure, he must have had alot of charisma.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:50 PM

Weasel, No dispute here. It was just a stumbled across link with some nice photos and thoughts about the black Jesus. If you read my whole post it should have been obvious that it wasn't my thoughts on the subject!

I believe you could be right Little Hawk-we could all be part alien!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 05:21 PM

dianavan, you have obviously not tasted my "Jesus" either. Perhaps one day your astute mind will open to the taste.
Best wishes....and Christian love...Mike.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 05:47 PM

In the 1970's, I thought that Cat Stevens looked like Jesus must have - and talked like Him, too.
If fact, I still think so sometimes.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:14 PM

Georgiansilver - Can you believe that my experience of Jesus might be quite different than yours? I haven't tasted him but I have walked with him hand in hand. He is a friend. Not a God and not a silly wafer and some grape juice.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:10 PM

Susan B. Anthony eventually declared in frustration: "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires."

Weasel, I just had to add this as a last statement to you because it seemed appropriate to fit your response of... They are trying to subvert history to their own means, disregarding anything that doesn't fit in, discounting some things that they say there is no evidence for, yet accepting other for which there is less.

Peace, Rustic

I think Jesus had red hair anyway. Oh, and a red beard too.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:20 PM

dianavan...if you had walked hand in hand with Jesus...you would not be the person you appear to be now. Jesus Lives and he leads me. He loves me and leads me. He is love and compassion.......Having a personal relationship with "Jesus" is something special. Not to be diminished by anyone. If you walked hand in hand with Jesus....at any time...you could not turn your back on Him....not once....
Best wishes, Mike.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:52 PM

Jesus sent out for a corned beef on rye.

He likes his with a chocolate phosphate.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:41 PM

Andy walks with me
Andy talks with me
Andy tells me I am his own...

**

Perhaps his names not Jesus, but Andrew?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:35 AM

Maybe, GS, he has a different way of leading you than he does Dianavan. A way best suited to your own temperament, background, and emotional nature. That would be wiser than leading everyone the same way, I would think.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Weasel Books
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:10 AM

Rustic,I know those weren't your thoughts, but I want to warn people who go and read this. The Khazar part is actualy straight out of a Nazi/Aryan site, which just goes to show ya.

I was reffering entirely to what IS known. They blatantly disregard and twist it to fit in with their agenda. I don't know how Jesus looked, but I can make a guess based on what we have available, and I can tell you what he would not have looked like, again, on the evidence available.
He could very well have had red hair, and I pointed out the possibility in one of my previous posts.

Whoever made the comments on Mithras has a very good point. His mythos was grafted on to Christianity, Armenia worshipped him prior to their conversion, and he was the most popular deity among Roman soldiers, who spread his cult throughout the Empire.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Cluin
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:31 AM

Jeanie,

See? I was right, in my first post to this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 09:34 AM

The forensic reconstruction of 1st century skulls from the region in question looks exactly like the insurgent thugs GWB refers to.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:18 PM

So, did anyone look at the web site that says what Jesus really look like?

Sure doesn't look like that lily white gentile hanging around in all of the churches, I'm afraid.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:25 PM

this could be as good a radical 'christ' image as any


http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo.tcl?photo_id=900366


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 01:00 AM

There weren't any Christians around anyway until some considerable time after Jesus' life was over. Jesus and all his immediate disciples who went around with him at that time were Jews, and what they considered themselves to be doing was reforming Judaism, not launching a new religion called "Christianity". On top of that, though, Jesus preached to everyone. He was a true Universalist in nature. There was no particular need to turn his teachings into an official new religion with a new name. Just a need to learn from them and practice them, that's all. That would not require a new religion.

So the fact that he most probably looked like a Jew of the time is totally appropriate in every way.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 07:10 AM

Who are the Brights? (I share the criticism of that stupid choice of a name, BTW, though the definition fits me I shall never use that name)

Olives for those who have not yet seen brown olives.

Most people discussing here seem no to buy the idea of virgin birth. If that idea is true, then Jesus may have looked only half Jewish and the other half...

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:51 PM

By the way, wasn't this topic covered last year?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: number 6
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:55 PM

I have to admit I'm fascinated that this thread has attracted this much attention, even more fascinated that I have found it interesting!

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 12:30 AM

Well, it was just the kickoff to a wide-ranging discussion. That was my intent. I don't really care all that much what Jesus looked like, but I thought it would get things rolling, and it did.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 05:23 PM

While Jesus' teachings are so much more important than what he looked like, I have found it interesting and affirming to find out that science is confirming that Jesus was Black...

[especially if "Black" is defined as it in the United States to refer to people who have 1 drop of 'black blood' and may look as white as a Scandinavian person or as dark as the darkest Sudanese.]


Given that February is considered by some to be "Black History month" in the United States, [though I feel every month is Black history month], I would like to provide some additional information on Ethiopians and Christianity in Ethiopia:

"The Amhara are a Semitic people whose ancestors probably came from what is modern-day Yemen. Addis Abeba, the capital of Ethiopia and of the previous Amhara Abyssinian Empire, is home for many Amhara but actually an enclave within the land of the Oromo peoples.

History: According to their traditions they trace their roots to Menelik I, the child born of the queen of Sheba and King Solomon. It is thought that the Sabaean (Sheban) people began to settle on the west coast of the Red Sea, from their home in southern Arabia, about 1000 BC. Menelik I was the first of the Solomonic line of rulers of Ethiopia that ended only with the deposing of Emperor Haile Selassie in 1974.

By about 1500 BC their civilization became the Axum Empire, based on a mixture of the early Sabaean culture and the prior Cushitic culture. The ruins of the ancient city of Axum can still be seen in Tigray Province. Except for a few notable exceptions, the Amhara have been the dominant people group in Ethiopia history. The strength of their culture is shown in this influence though they number only 15 million of the estimated 53 million population of modern Ethiopia.

Identity:   The Amhara appear to be descended from the same people group as the Tigray-Tigrinya people. Their Sabaean ancestors came to the highlands of what is now Eritrea and Ethiopia from the Arabian peninsula. The two peoples were united over the centuries in the Amhara-Tigray empire, called Abyssinia, from the name for a group of the Tigray people at that time, the Habash. They claim close ties with the Jews, having adopted many cultural values and religious beliefs from them.

The basic ancestry of the Amhara is Semitic, as is their language. But they intermarried and absorbed some of the Cushitic peoples who preceded them in this area. There was a strong Oromo strain in the royal family and nobles. The Amhara features are similar to the southern Arabs, olive to brown skin, with Caucasian features and dark circles around the eyes. The name comes from the word amari, meaning "pleasing, agreeable, beautiful and gracious."

Language: Amharic, the language of the Amhara, shows its Semitic origin both in its alphabet and words shared with Hebrew and Arabic. Amharic is descended from Ge'ez, a language extinct since the middle ages. Ge'ez developed from the original Sabaean language, changing through the influence of the non-Semitic languages of the earlier peoples.   The Bible is still read in Ge'ez in the Coptic Church. A modern translation is available now in Amharic.

Amharic is the language of culture and education, spoken by millions of other Ethiopians and Eritreans as a second language. The fidel alphabet of Ge'ez, used to write Amharic and its sister languages Tigre and Tigrinya, is based on ancient Phoenician, adapted in the form of the Sabaean alphabet...

Religion: The focal point of Amhara culture is the Ethiopian Orthodox Church (EOC). The EOC is an ancient indigenous Christian church which began in the 4th century AD. The EOC was heavily influenced by Syrian Christianity from its earliest times. The initial witness was brought by two shipwrecked boys from Syria. Later, nine monks came from Syria to teach the young church. They established monasteries and translated the Bible into Ge'ez, the ancient language in use at that time.   

click here for more information on the Amharic people of Ethiopia.


PS. Last fall I attended a traditional wedding ceremony in Pittsburgh, Pennsyslvania for a couple who were both born in Ethiopia...The overwhelming majority of the people there were from Ethiopia [I was told that people had traveled from all parts of the eastern, and mideastern part of the United States and elsewhere to attend this wedding]. The men wore Western suits and the women wore traditional Ethiopian dresses and head scarfs such as I associated with Biblical stories. But if these women had worn 'regular' American clothes, I would have automatically thought they were brown skinned, light brown skinned, or fair skinned African Americans...

One difference that I noted, however, was that the vast majority of the Ethiopian women had shoulder length straight [or sraigthened] black hair while in some areas of the USA a number of African American women wear their hair in extention braids, afros, or have their hair cut short and styled.[not to mention that some African American women have dyed their hair blond and I saw not one Ethiopian woman with blond hair]... Yet.

Ms. Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: AggieD
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 05:58 PM

As a Jew who is interested in this discussion, I haven't read closely all the posts, but I have to say 2 Millenia down the line there are still an awful lot of curly haired Jews out there, me being one of them.
In fact my hair is so woolly as to be almost comparable to that of many black people. Many of us have the 'typical' reddish/black hair that still lingers from the thousands of years of marriage with only one racial type.
My husband has the colouring that is thought very typical of the Semitic colouring, he has in various parts of the world been taken from any of the typical Middle Eastern/Mediterranean residents to being Kashmiri when we were in India. In fact his skin colouring is not much lighter than some of our friends from India.
I would think that the many of you who have supposed Jesus would be very much like the modern day residents of the Middle East, wouldn't be far wrong. He would almost certainly have been dark skinned, he would most probably have had a beard, I would say that like other peoples of that era he would have been fairly short, and as a tradesman would have been pretty stocky. There is also the possibilty that the man would have been saddled with the large nose that is still very prominent (oops sorry!!!) in the Middle East of today.
I very much doubt that he would have been as black, as African or Afro/Americans.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 06:30 PM

We all came from Africa anyway. For what that matters.
................................
Maybe it's my computer, but half those olives Wolfgang linked to looked purple, and the other half were chocolate coloured. Maybe it's the colour of olive-oil that is being referred to when people with light brown skin are described as "olive complexioned".


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 06:53 PM

AggieD,

What I have been attempting to share in this thread is that the skin complexion of many Black Americans [aka 'African Americans'] is as you describe your husband's complexion or far far lighter. Also some African Americans [and other peoples of African descent such as in the Caribbean, Latin American, South American, and elsewhere] have either naturally curly hair, or naturally straight hair [that may be reddish brown, brown, black or even naturally blond in color].

Anybody who attended or visted historically Black colleges [particularly in the late 1960s when I did] would attest to the fact that there are lot of African Americans who can 'pass for white' [have the same skin color and other characteristics of Whites]...

This may or may not have anything to do with what Jesus looked like...

Ms. Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 07:12 PM

This is drifting the thread, but my impression is that in America anyway, skin-colour seems to have relatively little relationship to whether people are described as "black" or not. I've seen TV programmes where the person with the lighter skin is the "black" one, and the person with the darker skin is the "white" one. (Perhaps it's my telly, but I don't think so.)


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 10:01 AM

When I got up this morning I noticed a new DVD my son left on the table. For one brief moment there in the early morning light, I thought it was a picture of Jesus on the cover. Well, I almost hit Nirvana! Hey, maybe my son is opening his mind to things spiritual after all ...   

But then I saw the DVD title "Kurt & Courtney - a film by Nick Broomfield".    :-O

Hurt CoPain and Jesus - who'da thought?   Sheesh, are they twins or something???   ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 01:03 PM

Continuing with this bit of thread drift [and bringing it back home]:

McGrath of Harlow,
You said
"I've seen TV programmes where the person with the lighter skin is the "black" one, and the person with the darker skin is the "white" one. (Perhaps it's my telly, but I don't think so.)"

I don't think it's your television either.

It's the crazy racial definition system used in the United States that considers anybody "African American" no matter what they look like if ANY of their ancestors had ANY African ancestry. Not that I like South Africa's system-with it "Black", "Coloured" , and "White" system better.

But, for what it's worth, the catch-all United States definition of who is "Black" certainly increases the numbers of African Americans, because-efforts to legitimize referents such as 'biracial' notwithstanding- everytime in the United States there is a child born who has one Black birth parent, no matter what the race or ethnicity of the other birth parent, at least socially, that child is considered to be African American.

For a number of years I worked with families who transracially adopted [Whites adopting children who are non-White}. IMO it is important for these adoptive parents to work through their own prejudices and have a realistic understanding of racial attitudes and prejudices in their immediate area and in their world. In doing so they will be better able to raise children who have positive self-esteem AND a strong, clear, positive group identity.

All children need positive role models. Given the nature of this world, children of color may have more difficulty finding postive role models in history [since a comprehensive, true history of the cultures and achievements of people of color is rarely provided in public or private schools].

But what better role model of a person of color could these children have but Jesus!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 01:43 PM

But what better role model of a person of color could these children have but Jesus!

A guy that showed his displeasure with money lenders by taking a stick to them?

A guy that withered a fig tree because the fruit wasn't to his liking?

A guy that took family men away from their wives and children?

A guy that burnt Egyptian children for looking cross-eyed at him?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: AggieD
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 06:31 PM

Azizi, whilst I understand your point that children need good role models, I still cannot understand why you press the point that Jesus was black.

The point I was trying to make was that as Jesus was a Jew, he was just as likely to have 'woolly' hair & be dark skinned, but it was very unlikely that he was black. Dark skinned, certainly as he would have spent a good deal of his time in the hot sun.

I also don't deny your point that many Ethiopians are of Semitic origin, or that many Jews have blonde hair & blue eyes, or straight hair, or pale skin, but this is most probably because of intermarriage with other races as they travelled through the diaspora over almost 2,000 years. Which is also why Ethiopians are probably various shades of colour, as you say yourself there have been various peoples who have integrated, which will throw up different colourings down the generations.

However if you push the point that Jesus was definitely black, wouldn't it be just as hard for people of lighter colour to accept him as a role model? Surely the point is that as a Christian you should teach children that they should love Jesus, no matter what his colour??


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 06:36 PM

Define "black". Then we can go from there.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 12:25 AM

Little Hawk - Its easier to define "White". If everyone else was "non-white", hmmm... White would be a tiny minority. A tiny minority that controls the world and the written word.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 12:30 AM

what did Jesus smell like ?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Bill the Collie
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 02:12 AM

Why do we call people white when they demonstrably are pinkish.

And black people are usually a shade of brown.

I've often wondered.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 03:15 AM

It boggles the mind sometimes.

There's a church in Clearwater, Florida where they claim that an image of the Virgin Mary has appeared in the glass by the door. I've seen pictures of the image, and if you squint real hard and use your imagination a lot, you can almost believe it looks like a woman with a scarf over her head. To me, it looks like sunlight glinting on stress lines in the glass. A similar image appeared on a concrete building (I forget where) after a rainstorm. It was a big, wet splotch in the concrete. Once again, nothing more than a silhouette. Both images, the one in Florida and the one on the concrete building have a shape similar to the outline of the Madonna in many Renaissance paintings, but there is no detail. No eyes, no nose, no mouth. Nothing to identify it as a woman. For that matter, it could just as easily be a silhouette of Sir Edmond Hillary with the hood of his parka pulled up over his head. Yet, many people are absolutely sure that this is an image of the Virgin Mary.

And then there is the Shroud of Turin, which many people insist was the shroud that Jesus was wrapped in after the crucifixion. This, despite the fact that the linen cloth has been carbon dated. It's fourteenth century. And the supposed blood turns out to be red ochre pigment. The image is a painting.

It was in the news a week or so ago. A woman bit into a peanut M&M, and, to her, the image her teeth left on what remained of the peanut looked like the face of Jesus. They're so small I usually just pop the whole thing in my mouth and bite down on it there. But that habit has probably cost me a fortune. The woman sold the remains of the chocolate covered peanut on eBay for something like $1,800.

Nobody knows what Jesus looked like. Nobody knows what Mary looked like. I guess speculating on the matter can be fun, but it's ridiculous to get worked up over it.

Now, if somebody turns up with a Polaroid that hasn't faded over the past 2,000 years, that would be something. But even then, I think there would still be questions. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 05:22 AM

The Turin Shroud evidence isn't as clearcut as Don says there - witness this latest turn: Shroud of Turin 'up to 3,000 years old'

Agreed though, it's ridiculous to get worked up about questions about looks. They aren't what matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Tracy aged 14
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 08:10 AM

well if he looked like Brad Pitt.. no problems..

but if it turned out he was an ugly little minger of a fella
I'd search for a different religion with a dishier god
to fan worship ???


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Mandy, Tracy's best friend at school
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 08:26 AM

has any one got a spare autographed photo of Jesus to swap ?

I'll trade 2 Boyzone CDs and signed pair of Ronan Keatings underpants


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 09:32 AM

AggieD, you wrote:

"Azizi whilst I understand your point that children need good role models, I still cannot understand why you press the point that Jesus was black.

The point I was trying to make was that as Jesus was a Jew, he was just as likely to have 'woolly' hair & be dark skinned, but it was very unlikely that he was black. Dark skinned, certainly as he would have spent a good deal of his time in the hot sun."

Here is my response:
AggieD, the main point that I was trying to make was that the racial referent "Black" is [now] mostly a social construct...it may mean [and usually does mean] different things depending on the society, time & place it is used. I particularly limited my comments about who is considered "Black' to historical and contemporary USA. I also briefly mentioned that the nation of South Africa has a different definition of who is considered Black...There are also different criteria for who is "Black" in other nations such as Brazil...

In these nations there were legal determinants of who part of the 'Black race'. But in addition to that people in those societies used [and still use] skin color, facial features, and hair texture [ans sometimes clothing such as a sari] as visual clues to determine a person's racial 'category'.

Given these visual clues, it is my contention that people in the United States would have classified Jesus as black...This does not mean that he had immediate African ancestry [I say immediate for science now says we all descend from Africans...]

I do not pretend to be knowledgeable about genetics..Nor do I know enough about the Bible and the anthropology of peoples back then to say where Jesus' descendants originally came from, or what they physically looked like...I leave that for those who have that expertise..

However, I would doubt that the only reason that Jesus {and others living in his area during his time on earth] was dark skinned was because they worked in the sun. Certainly working in the sun would make their skin get darker-just as I and other African Americans who get tanned in the summer months..However, it is my belief that melanin in Jesus' skin was what caused its probably dark color.

And as to your comment about 'intermarriage' [I suppose that you meant with other light skin Black people and with Whites] being the reason why African Americans are such a mixed race people...I would say yes and no...

Firstly I would add that the reason why we are such as mixed race people [not forgetting the mixture of various African ethnic groups]is because we are the product of marriages but also involuntary and vloluntary sexual relationships between [Black] Africans and and White [European]..In addition, many of us have [and some can trace]Native American and/or Asian ancestry..

Also, AggieD I gathered from your comments that you believed that all continental Africans had dark [black] skin complexion...This is not true...Besides those Africans who are albinos, some African ethnic groups are naturally brown skinned [and not because of their gene pool being mixed with Europeans].

Finally, AggieD, with regard to your last comment, I'll insert my responses:

You-"However if you push the point that Jesus was definitely black, wouldn't it be just as hard for people of lighter colour to accept him as a role model? [Disregarding the fact that I am not 'pushing' this point, my response is "No, why should it be?"]


You-"Surely the point is that as a Christian you should teach children that they should love Jesus, no matter what his colour?? [Me: Yes, and ditto for all people..]


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 09:55 AM

white black red or yellow
we'd love any colour jesus cuz he's a swell fellow


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 11:51 AM

In one of the Simpsons episode, Homer meets God who tells him:

"I don't have a lot of time, I'm due on a tortilla in Mexico."


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 12:06 PM

There was a very good TV show called "Night Gallery" back in the 80's. It was a kind of resurrection of "Twilight Zone", narrated and often written by the great Rod Serling. There was a Christmas episode of an old Jewish guy ill in bed (Edgar G. Robinson) diverting his grandson's worry with tales of the Messiah, and he describes His coming as "looming and black". When the old man lapses into unconsciousness, his grandson runs up and down the streets looking for the Messiah. He settles on a black man (Yaphet Kotto) who asks the kid why he thinks he's the Messiah. The kid looks up at him and says:

"Because you're big, you're black, and you loom."

My brother and I thought that was a great line and we've recycled it for years.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 01:14 PM

True, as Kevin says, the controversy over the age of the Shroud of Turin goes on, but probably largely because the believers don't want to let it go. However, the question remains:   if it actually is Christ's burial sheet, how did it get to Turin, Italy? Did some crusader or pilgrim bring it back? And if so, why didn't we hear about it until just recently?

And here's the killer question: without a mug-shot to compare it with, how do we know that it's Jesus? Maybe it's one of the two thieves. Or Peter, who, as the story goes, was crucified in Italy. Or some unknown person who never made it into print at all.

Once again the disclaimer in small print:   don't anybody assume from what I say about this that you know what my actual religious beliefs are, if any. When I figure it out, I'll let you know.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 03:09 PM

Why do we call people white when they demonstrably are pinkish. (Bill the collie)

For the same reason we call one type of wine white (or 'green' in Portugese) when in fact it isn't: Perception and in consequence language tends to increase (blow up) differences. And that goes back to the wiring of the neurons via lateral inhibition. And that..., maybe you didn't want to know it in such detail.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 03:34 PM

Look round a beach full of scarlet North Europeans on holiday, and why to work out how it was their relatives referred to the people they met in America as "Redskins"...


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 03:37 PM

Why do we call people white when they demonstrably are pinkish. (Bill the collie)

For the same reason we call one type of wine white (or 'green' in Portugese) when in fact it isn't: Perception and in consequence language tends to increase (blow up) differences. And that goes back to the wiring of the neurons via lateral inhibition. And that..., maybe you didn't want to know it in such detail.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Weasel Books
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 06:51 PM

"But what better role model of a person of color could these children have but Jesus!

A guy that showed his displeasure with money lenders by taking a stick to them?

A guy that withered a fig tree because the fruit wasn't to his liking?

A guy that took family men away from their wives and children?

A guy that burnt Egyptian children for looking cross-eyed at him?"

Eh? Where did you get the bit about burning Egyptian children? Whenever Jesus and children are mentioned he is telling people to love and respect them. He also says that anyone who abuses them would be better if they hanged a millstone around their necks.

The fig tree was used to illustrate some points of doctrine and teaching.

When he chased the moneylenders and businessmen out of the Temple, it was not because they were moneylenders, etc., but because they plied their trade inside the most sacred of places, turning it into nothing more than a market. Even when expelling them forcibly, Jesus took great care not to harm the caged birds. Note that these are the only two occasions in which he used force (and mild at that). Indeed, was there any other way to stop it?

He was not gone all the time, they were home enough (and presumably still fished), and in the meantime the community cared for the families of the Apostles, as they would for any in need.

Why is someone who encourages people to be tolerant, obedient, kind, and good a bad example for children to follow?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:08 PM

McGrath, the only time I have run into brown olives rather than the green or black ones I was familiar with was a few years ago when an Italian cooked a 'traditional' Italian dinner for a number of us.

In the middle of the table was a dish of smallish brown olives. They were not as 'meaty' as the black and green kinds, rather like the difference between commercially grown versus roadside fruits. Frankly they didn't look - or for that matter, taste - as good as those I'm used to but Ric gave me the name of the kind (I seem to remember they were regional) and assured me that they were indeed olives.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Weasel Books
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:16 PM

Growing up in Northern Israel (with the very best olives in the world bar none!), I was quite shocked by the small, bland California olives we had at grandmother's house. My brother was so disgusted with them that he refused to admit they were olives.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 11:30 PM

Jesus was black. Hair like wool, feet like burnt brass. we all know that when something is burnt it's BLACK right?
Jesus has black feet Daniel 7
Unless there's a different meaning for BURNT? I rest my case


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:03 AM

What did Jesus look like?

He looked like Robert Powell of course...

*G*


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: John O'L
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 09:21 AM

What Did The Ancient Israelites Look Like?

Guest has been doing some serious research:

Revelation:14-15
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace;

What type of people have feet and skin of burnt brass? The same type of people whose origins are from the continient that is known today as Africa.


Make of it what you will. Dunno how Daniel 7 comes into it.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:25 AM

When something is burnt it isn't always black. The ash left in my fireplace is usualy a sort of pale grey. Maybe he just looked ill:-)

Besides we all know he was blond haired and blue eyed. We have seen the pictures and we know the camera doesn't lie...

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:31 AM

Dave, for a minute I thought you were serious about your second sentence, since your smile icon looks like a "D".

But then I realized they didn't have any cameras way back then.

I wish they did. Oh well, there's always time travel.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Scoville
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 03:26 PM

How dark is "dark"? My mother is very dark for a white woman ("olive" skin, black hair) but not dark in the grand scheme of dark. She's darker than my Latina/white/African-American friend, though, who is also olive-dark but not DARK. Golden? Even I look pretty dark when you park me next to my Scandinavian sister-in-law. Dark seems to be highly relative.

I went to college with a darker-than-some Jewish kid who had the tightly-curled hair mentioned above--we always sort of figured Jesus probably looked a lot like that. He was actually known on campus as the Kid Who Looked Like Jesus. No kidding.


FYI most Native Americans, even if they have very little white ancestry, are also considerably less red when they're not in the sun all the time. Actually, they look just like my mom (who is not Native American, at least that we can find. Go figure).


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 05:05 PM

I've done 6 paintings of Jesus. The next one will bear a striking resemblence to the president of Iran.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 06:27 PM

Jesus obviously looked like John Karr. How long are you going to waste your time arguing this stupid stuff?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 06:52 PM

I picture Jesus as being a lot like Garry Shandling, only younger.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Kaleea
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:01 PM

Some years ago, I was choir director at a church which had some members who were, shall we say, somewhat closed minded. about this subject. Therefore, I chose to sing the following song for the Christmas Eve & Sunday morning on Christmas day services. (The open-minded minister loved it!)


Some Children See Him
By Alfred Burt

Some children see Him lily white
the infant Jesus born this night
Some children see Him lily white
with tresses soft and fair

Some children see Him bronzed and brown
the Lord of heav'n to earth come down
Some children see Him bronzed and brown
with dark and heavy hair (with dark and heavy hair!)

Some children see Him almond-eyed
This Saviour whom we kneel beside
Some children see Him almond-eyed
With skin of yellow hue!

Some children see Him dark as they
Sweet Mary's Son to whom we pray
Some children see Him dark as they
And, ah! they love Him so!

The children in each different place
Will see the Baby Jesus' face
Like theirs but bright with heav'nly grace
And filled with holy light!

O lay aside each earthly thing
and with thy heart as offering
Come worship now the infant King
'tis love that's born tonight!

'tis love that's born tonight!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Thomas Didymus
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:01 PM

He looked much very like Kendall.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Richard Brandenburg
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:47 AM

Interesting thread, all, but count me in with the few who feel that it's of no importance at all what Jesus looked like. And it seems to me that Racialism especially is antithetical to that which is represented by Jesus.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:18 AM

There is plenty of documetary evidence Jesus existed. The Romans felt he was a political agitator, the pharasies though he was blaspheming, as for his appearance - he was from that region. He would look like the Arabic stock we see now. Isreal has had the influx of European migrants so they are more ethnically mixed but something like them too.

Length of hair? Dunno - fashions change - maybe he would not look like his contempories - in order to stand out. Clothes - simple, cheap and practical, coarse weave cloth.

But how would a Devout Atheist like me know?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Grab
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:48 AM

"And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace;"

The phrase is "as if they burned in a furnace". Not "as if they *had been* burned in a furnace". Present tense, not past tense.

It makes a difference. If you put something into a furnace, it's only black afterwards (and then only if it burns). When it's in the furnace, it glows yellow due to the extreme heat. In other words, the colour of fine, polished brass. Gold could have been used as an analogy, but gold doesn't polish up well and doesn't reflect light, whereas brass takes a good shiny surface and so will reflect light back at you.

And the "wool" line is for whiteness, not for wooliness.

Sometimes I wonder whether some people really read, or whether they just pick out every other word... ho hum. Better luck next time, Guest.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Mooh
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 04:56 PM

"If Jesus comes back and this time he's black, what are you gonna do?
If you don't listen to his rap, how's he gonna talk to you?
Everything's gonna be different, when this old world is through
If Jesus comes back and this time he's black, what are you gonna do?"

I forget who wrote this without finding my songbook, but I've been playing this song for years. What will he look like? Will we recognize him? If he's here now (and I could argue that he is) we surely don't recognize him. I would really like to know what he physically looked like, but I'm more interested in how he looks now, or how he will look.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 05:14 PM

If Jesus were to appear today, looking as he looked 2,000 years ago, they probably wouldn't let him on an airplane. Also, if he were to appear today saying the same things he did 2,000 years ago (only in modern language), he'd probably be dismissed by a lot of people (including many Christians) as "just another one of those whiny, bleeding-heart liberals."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 06:45 PM

May I remind Grab and Guest if they {either or both} need such reminding that-particularly in the United States, "black" as a referent for a race includes people who are very very dark skinned through very very light skinned. There certainly are a significant number of people in this racial grouping who look like Semetic Middle Eastern people.

But even if you said that Jesus probably looked like a Middle Eastern person then and now-it seems to me that you have to take into consideration the fact that-at least nowadays- there is also a wide range of skin complexions for Middle Eastern people.

There appears to be some documentation now of what people looked like who lived in the same area Jesus did. Given that documentation and given the wide color continuum of Black Americans, I believe that the statement that Jesus could have been mistaken for a Black man is accurate-as long as we are talking about the definition of "Black man" being the one used for Black Americans.

Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say that Jesus lookes like a certain type of Black man.

And if racial profiling of Middle Eastern looking people officially occurs, and the historical Jesus were to come back and attempt to board a plane, he would be subject to racial profiling just like other non-White men.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 06:46 PM

Don- I didn't see your post until I submitted my own.

What you said....


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 06:58 PM

Great Minds then to think alike.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Mooh
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:07 PM

Don...Valid point, but surely He won't be simply repeating himself, though I wonder how he'll improve upon his prior messages. Yeah, yeah, I know...more of what we fail to comprehend now...

My dogs don't care or even apparently notice my grooming, so what should His matter? More a rhetorical question maybe...Maybe He will have his own fashion line.

Fashions by Jesus.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: John O'L
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:10 PM

If any of that stuff about the second coming, armageddon, the beast etc etc is true, then it is pretty obvious to me that it all happens constantly on a personal level. That the Christ and Antichrist come to each person whenever they are due. Thus Jesus must look like whoever it is who is experienceing their Lo-and-Behold moment at that or any other time.
I mean that's really the only way it can work, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:31 PM

Interesting thread, just read it. well done evrybody.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:38 PM

Question:
Why does what Jesus looked like matter?

One Response:
Because racism against non-White people still exist on personal and institutional levels. Jesus being portrayed as a White man is an expression of that racism.

See these brief vingettes in Teen Voices Online, Loving the Skin I'm In about one teen's personal experiences with skin color prejudice.

Here's one excerpt of that article:

"Hey, Tricia, where are you from?" Josh Evans yells from the back of the bus.
      I feel myself begin to tremble. Josh Evans, the coolest eighth grader in school, normally ignores me, a lowly seventh grader and good student to boot. Today, he is singling me out of the entire bus, because I am different. Different. In middle school, when self-confidence is at an all-time low, individuality scarcely exists, and kids strive to conform, I have to be different. "Different" is such an ugly word.
I keep my calm. "America," I reply defiantly.
"No, no," he says. "Where are you from?"
"I live in Fernbrook," I say. The information that he wants is
obvious; I just cannot bear to acknowledge the external difference between my peers and me.
"What race are you?" he asks.
"I'm part-Indian and part-Greek and part-Spanish," I reply, defeated.
"Indian? Whoa! So like, you have tomahawks at your house?"
The entire bus looks at me with great interest. I feel my cheeks grow warm.
"No," I say. "My parents were born in India."
"Oh," he says. "No wonder you're naturally tan. That's pretty tight."
No. It isn't "tight."
-snip-

Note that the cool eighth grader didn't intend to do anything wrong in asking this girl about her race, and at the end of the encounter complimented her by saying she was naturally tan and that was tight {meaning "cool" ; "great"}. However, reading the article you will see that the girl got her self-consciousness about her skin color from her mother's views that it is better to be light than dark.

Imo, speaking as a person of color, for White folks to say that they are "color blind" or for White folks to pretend that color makes no difference is missing the point.

In my opinion, it is better for folks of good will-of all races and ethnicities-to recognize the need to root out our own color prejudice. And imo, it is better for folks of good will to work toward a time when no value judgements are attached to skin colors and institutional racism which benefits one race over others is completely eradicated.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Grab
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 09:43 AM

Fair comment about mixed-race people today, Azizi. But that quote from Revelations (for what good it is) is pretty clear about the general skin tone being "finest brass", which no-one with mixed African and European blood will ever have.

FWIW, I think it's all crap anyway. Jesus should be a role model, not a race model. If someone needs to imagine him your colour to make him relevant as a "father figure" for them, then that's fine. But saying "he was definitely this skin colour" is bad history, and saying "he was definitely this skin colour so he's not relevant to you" is worse theology.

On that topic, a couple of Xmasses back in the UK there was a series of stamps depicting the Holy Family as being various ethnic groups. The one with the Virgin Mary being Indian with a bindi spot got particular flak from the narrow-minded. Me, I thought it was possibly the best depiction of what religion *should* be that I'd ever seen.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Mooh
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 10:22 AM

Jesus then, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Works for me.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 01:33 PM

Jesus being represented as a white guy is an expression of racism if (and only if) you assume that there was no historical personage behind the mythography. If there was such a person, the probability is overwhelming that he was what would today be considered "white" (i.e. not "of color.") To impute "racism" to such a conclusion is itself racist. IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:02 PM

"If there was such a person [as a historical Jesus], the probability is overwhelming that he was what would today be considered "white" (i.e. not "of color.")"

If you really meant this statement, BuckMulligan, then your definition of a "White" person must differ greatly from the definition most people have been using for centuries.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:16 PM

Hurrah! for an expanded definition of who is part of the White race.

Are people of Black/White ancestry White? Yes, according to this inclusive definition of White. Even if they are dark skinned and look like what people used to say Black people look like, if they have any White ancestry what so ever, they can say they're White and be enthusiatically accepted into that race.

Hurrah for inclusiveness!

Are people of Native American/White ancestry White? Yes, according to this inclusive definition of White. Even if they are brown skinned and look like what people used to say Native Americans look like, if they have any White ancestry what so ever, they can say they're White and be enthusiatically accepted into that race.

Hurrah for inclusiveness!

Are people of Latino/White ancestry White? Yes, according to this inclusive definition of White. Even if they too are brown skinned and look like what people used to say Latinos/Latinas look like, if they have any White ancestry what so ever, they can say they're White and be enthusiatically accepted into that race.

Are people of Asian/White ancestry White? Yes, according to this inclusive definition of White. Even if they look like whatever people used to think Asians looked like {brown skin, yellow skin}, if they have any White ancestry what so ever, they can say they're White and be enthusiatically accepted into that race.

Hip Hip Hurrah for an expanded inclusive definition of who is White!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:30 PM

"Clothes - simple, cheap and practical, coarse weave cloth. " Mr. Red

Eventually, according to the story, Jesus was garbed in finer robes than most people had. See the crucifiction scene inre the soldiers' gambling.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: emjay
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:03 PM

I think the most important thing to realize is that we will describe a person as black or brown, but how seldom we -- any of us -- use white as part of the description.
That says a lot about why it matters what Jesus looked like.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:35 PM

When you say that "we--any of us--use white as part of the description", emjay, I believe that by "we" you mean those who post on Mudcat who are White.

There are times when I {and other people of color I know} describe people as White.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with race being used as a descriptor, as long as there is no positive or negative value given to that descriptor.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: emjay
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:16 PM

Yes, I think it is mostly white people who do not use white as part of the description. I can't say what black people do or do not do because I think I just don't notice. It bothers me when (white) people think it necessary to describe a person as black when no other physical description is given and the color has nothing to do with the subject at hand. If we are giving a physical description, then color is part of it, and white could just as easily be a part of the description as anything else.
That is what is interesting about this thread, that it is so important to know what color Jesus's skin was. And yes, it is important to people who have what is probably the same color skin and have been treated badly because of it. And it's important to those who have treated different people differently because of the color of their skin. It is very important.
In a writing class (all white people) many years ago, the teacher told the whole class that our failure to note the color of skin of white people we described was evidence of racism on our parts. I didn't agree with the teacher then, but I have been very conscious of doing or not doing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:36 PM

The Zebra goes to heaven and approaches God with the question that has been on his mind for years.

"God," he asks, "am I white with black stripes or black with white stripes?"

"You are what you are." Answered God.

Pondering this answer for years the Zebra eventualy approaches St Peter and explains what went on.

"Well, that's easy." Says Peter. "You are white."

"How do you figure that out?" asks the Zebra.

"Well, if you were black he would have said you is what you is..."

No offence intended to anyone but perhaps the issue of race is as ridiculous as the above example?

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:41 PM

"No offence intended to anyone but perhaps the issue of race is as ridiculous as the above example?"

And perhaps not.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:48 PM

Don't understand, Azizi, sorry:-( Am I being slow today?

Did you ever finish the book on the Pace Egg Play btw and did you ever try to re-create it? Or was it any use to anyone else? Not too far from the thread btw as the resuraction of 'Slasher' is supposed to be representative of Jesus. (So I'm told!)

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:34 PM

Dave, yes, I did finish the book, thank you so much for sending it to me. I love learning about different cultures.

With regards to the joke, Dave, I'll pm you.

I'm not going to make any other comment regarding it on this thread.

Positive vibrations,

Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM

I'll look forward to your pm as ever Azizi - your posts and pm's are always wlcome:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: emjay
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:06 PM

If I can't refrain from sounding so pompous, I may never post again!
Sorry -- but maybe nobody read it.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:57 PM

emjay, for some reason, I didn't see your 31 Aug 06 - 05:16 PM
post when I responded to Dave's post earlier this evening.

I have read that post and I don't think it was pompous at all.

I'm not sure I understood what your teacher was trying to convey with her statement. Maybe describing the people's race wasn't pertinent to the conversations and ,therefore, why do it?

While I believe that Jesus' teachings transcends race,in my opinion, the fact that some White people and some Black people and others would be upset if Jesus was depicted as a person who looked like a Middle Eastern man {i.e. brown skinned} is just more evidence of the fact that we {people of the world} have not moved far from an
Euro-centric approach to the world that judges White people as the gold standard and every other people as less than. Using such a standard, Jesus {and God}have to be pictured as White.

It is easy to see how this Eurocentric approach is detrimental to the self esteem and the group esteem of non-European people. But I also think that {perhaps in more subtle ways} it is also detrimental to White people.

****

Emjay, I look forward to reading more of your posts.

Best wishes, and see you around the 'Cat,

Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Ian P
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 11:47 AM

Have you considered? ... The Gospel writers thought JC's teachings were significant enough to record. They didn't think his appearance was.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 12:54 AM

I don't know what he looked like but he definitely had a bleeding heart.

From common dreams:

Jesus was the ultimate liberal progressive revolutionary of all history. The conservative religious and social structure that He defied hated and crucified Him. They examined His life and did not like what they saw. He aligned Himself with the poor and the oppressed. He challenged the religious orthodoxy of His day. He advocated pacifism and loving our enemies. He liberated women and minorities from oppression. He healed on the Sabbath and forgave adulterers and prostitutes. He associated with drunks and other social outcasts. He rebuked the religious right of His day because they embraced the letter of the law instead of the Spirit. He loved sinners and called them to Himself. Jesus was the original Liberal. He was a progressive, and He was judged and hated for it. It was the self-righteous religionists that He rebuked and He called them hypocrites."

The White people of the time were living far to the north and were still worshipping their pagan Gods. The chances of Jesus being White were very, very slim. Jewish, Arab or African possibly but White, like most of the pictures - very doubtful.

He was most likely brownish with an additonal tan from all those days of wandering.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Robot From Space
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 01:44 PM

Why does everybody assume that Jesus looked like a fucking arab? His father was GOD not an arab. He had fair skin, blue eyes and a lovely mane of golden/brown hair. Mohammed now he was an ugly geezer.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Robot From Space
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 01:47 PM

Dianavan - The inhabitants of the area were WHITE. Jews are predominately a white race.Romans are also white.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 01:53 PM

Hurrah! for an expanded definition of who is part of the White race.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 04:32 PM

Oh, goody. We finally know what God looks like. Since Mary, mother of Jesus, was a Jew and presumably shared Semitic charactics, it follows that if Jesus was blue eyed, fairskinned and had golden hair, those characteristics had to come from his father.

At long last.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 05:21 PM

He was actualy 18" tall, had a long gray beard, wore bright coloured clothes and liked to fish in garden ponds.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 05:44 PM

Come on, Dave- you're describing your own ancestor.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 06:39 PM

God? Well... she's Asian.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: woodsie
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 09:13 AM

Son of god, so he must have looked liked Eric Clapton.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: JennyO
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 10:19 AM

Well when I was a kid, I always pictured God as looking something like a cross between Gandalf and Slartibartfast, so I guess Jesus would have to be a sorta younger version.

Hell I don't know. Why does it matter?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 11:54 AM

What always makes me grin is the religious nutters who, when they have a biscuit, a cow turd, or whatever, that seems to have an image of a face on, if it looks female they say it MUST be the Virgin Mary and if it is male it MUST be Jesus. Why for X sake? I'm as likely as the next man to try to identify images in clouds or flames etc., but why such accidental images would be thought to be supernatural or religious I can't imagine.
RtS
(end of rant, grumpy old bugger signing off)


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 05:03 PM

I agree, Roger. I've never understood the compulsion to 'identify' an image as being someone specific and most especially someone so significant to so many people.

If those images appear in response to some mysterious event why could not that event have been the death of someone close to someone who somehow effected the image? In other words, if a human mind or psyche is capable of conjuring up an image of any sort, isn't it more likely that the image would have significance only to the person who possesses that mind?

If my husband had just died and I was grieving and my grief somehow imprinted an image onto a stone wall or a cowpie or a potato it certainly would have as much or more validity as an image that someone else comes along and identifies as Jesus or the Virgin Mary.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 06:12 PM

Boy. The stuff you people go on about. It's a wonder you ever came down out of the trees! ;-) Ook! Ook!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 09:03 PM

>>Are people of Asian/White ancestry White? Yes, according to this inclusive definition of White. Even if they look like whatever people used to think Asians looked like {brown skin, yellow skin}, if they have any White ancestry what so ever, they can say they're White and be enthusiatically accepted into that race.<<

From personal experience, it's quite the other way around. Legally, hapa people in America are Asian-American and not white:

See, e.g., In re Ah Yup (1878) (Chinese are not White); In re Camille 1880) (persons half white and Native American are not White); In re Kanaka Nian (1889) (Hawaiians are not White); In re Hong Yen Chang (1890) (Chinese are not White); In re Po (1894) (Burmese are not White); In re Saito (1894) (Japanese are not White); In re Burton (1900) (Native Americans are not White); In re Knight (1909) (persons half White, one-quarter Japanese, and one-quarter Chinese are not White); In re Balsara (1909) (Asian Indians are not White); In re Najour (1909) (Syrians are White); In re Halladjian (1909) (Armenians are White); Bessho v. United States (1910) (Japanese are not White); In re Alverto (1912) (persons three-quarters Filipino and one-quarter White are not White); In re Young (1912) (persons half German and half Japanese are not White); In re Akhay Kumar Mozumdar (1913) (Asian Indians are White); Ex parte Dow (1914) (Syrians are not White); Petition of Easurk Emsen Charr (1921) (Koreans are not White); Ozawa v. United States (1922) (Japanese are not White); United States v. Thind (1923) (Asian Indians are not White); United States v. Ali (1925) (Punjabis are not White); In re Feroz Din (1928) (Afghanis are not White); United States v. Gokhale (1928) (Asian Indians are not White); De La Ysla v. United States (1935) (Filipinos are not White); De Cano v. State (1941) (Filipinos are not White); Kharaiti Ram Samras v. United States (1942) (Asian Indians are not White); In re Ahmed Hassan (1942) (Arabians are not White); Ex parte Mohriez (1944) (Arabians are White).


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,FUNNY
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 02:16 PM

WHITEYS ARE ALWAYS CHANGING SCRIPTURES IN THE BIBLE..ONE TIME THE BIBLE SAID HIS HAIR WAS LIKE WOOL...NOW THEY CHANGED IT TOO "HIS HAIR WAS WHITE LIKE SHEEPS WOOL"...WHITEYS ALWAYS HAVE A AGENDY AND THE AGENDY IS WHITE SUPERMACY


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 02:45 PM

Aggressive people, whether they are white, black, yellow, brown, or red, always have an agenda, and their agenda is to be top dog and to dominate and control others whatever way they can. The top dog is the one who does the loudest and the most barking...specially WHEN IT'S ALL IN CAPITALS!

The top dog can't understand why the other dogs don't like being under his "thumb", but he doesn't really give a damn. The top dog has no idea that he is totally obnoxious and that the world would be better off without him.

And the same is true of you, GUEST, FUNNY. You're not funny, but you are a joke nevertheless.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,bones
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 12:39 PM

what does it matter ,he died for the whole world that is the greatest gift anyone can give.here is a point how many black serial killer r in prison? not many witch realy has nothing to do with anything.there r good people and thee r bad people just treat people the way u your self would like 2 b treated.from where jesus is from i would like 2 think he would have olive skin ,hair of wool.short hair.this has allways caused problems,just remember opinoins r like a butt hole we all have one.i respect yours if u respect mine ,fine now let go have a beer an talk about something else.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: mg
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 01:00 PM

Controlling people always sooner or later come back to that all caps things, which one of them made up. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 01:42 PM

Some folks say he looks a lot like me.



No, wait - that's Ol' Slewfoot ...


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 11:01 AM

no one's ever done him as a bald bloke.

So here's a good ecumenical point we can all agree on. he wasn't a baldy head.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Cassy
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 11:43 AM

When I was a kid I was told he looked like this
... but then I never exactly looked like one of those kids either :)


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM

"What did Jesus look like?"


                He looked like he was trying to find the answers in all the wrong places.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Al no cookie
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 04:25 PM

Oi vey.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 04:53 PM

A tad pissed off in the end, I would think.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 05:58 PM

There's a traditional catholic churcr in Leicester that I have been to that has various images of Jesus on the cross, they are all different, and all but one are white.

The last is a crucifix with a black man on it, with African features, hair and eyes.

The priests are your typical old Irish (stereotype would extend this to reactionary, racist etc) parish priests.

here is no issue about it, it is just there, above an altar, beside the door out of which the priests and altar boys process into and out of the Mass.



Seperately, I seem to remember something from RE in school where we read from a document in which an eye witness refers to getting a glimpse of Jesus over the heads of a throng of people, in which he is described as being dark with thin frizzy hair.

Hardly the most reliable or otherwise helpful historical source for you to digest, however meriting at least a brief mention in my view.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 06:32 PM

Jesus comes in many ways. How he comes to you is what is important.

He came to me one Sunday morn, at about 4AM. Enough said.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 08:25 PM

With regard to GUEST,FUNNY's comment of 07 Sep 06 - 02:16 PM {which I've just read}, the fact that that poster may or may not be funny {as in "ha ha" funny} or the fact that that poster writes in caps, does not negate the point that he or she made.

While I vehemently "reject and denouce" Guest Funny's use of the word racially offensive referent "Whitey", and his {or her} lumping all White people together as promoters of a White supremacy agenda, I believe that Funny's larger point may be valid.

Although I've no documentation to prove or disprove it, I've read that some Biblical scholars or some church congregations changed the Biblical verse which described Jesus' hair as being like lamb's wool to a translation that refers to Jesus' hair being the color of lamb's wool. If this was indeed done, the reason for this change in translation seems clear to me-hair like lamb's wool also can be a description of the hair texture of many people of African descent.
And those pastors/theologians-who may have had some overt or covert racism they had not acknowledged {or maybe they knew they were racist and that was a-okay with them}, wanted to remove that particular lamb's wool Biblical reference and any other Biblical reference that might confirm Jesus' physical appearance as being the same as or similar to the phsyical appearance of a Black or a Brown person.

Again, though I don't agree with the way Funny made his point, he did make a possible valid point.

**

just remember opinoins r like a butt hole we all have one.i respect yours if u respect mine ,fine now let go have a beer an talk about something else
-bones 15 Mar 08 - 12:39 PM]

Guest Bones, that's an interesting way of saying "different strokes for different folks" or "YMMV"-Your mileage may vary" and even if it does, people may or may not still be able to get along {with each other}, but they should at least try.

I say Amen! and I "second that emotion".

I hope that you continue expressing yourself on Mudcat. Or maybe you are doing so but I've just not recognized the name.

Be that as it may, let me say to you Bones, "Write On!"

:o)


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 04:46 AM

Which verse is that Azizi?

Of course, having been brought up a Catholic, I KNOW what Jesus looked like. He was really scary, he had his heart on the outside.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 07:02 AM

A programme a couple of years ago investigated this question, and tracked down a family who were apparently direct descendants of the people who lived in the area when Jesus lived there.

They were blue- and green-eyed, fair-skinned and brown-haired; the programme-makers then proceeded to show black-eyed, dark-skinned, black-haired people, voiceovering breathily: "So this is how Mary might have looked..."

In fact, since the Bible doesn't mention much about how he looked, he probably looked deeply ordinary.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 07:06 AM

Indeed,

It would seem in keeping with the character described in the Gospels and other associated texts that he wasn't glamorous.

We would probably describe his appearance as ugly by todays advertising industry standards.

And he certainly wouldn't have been bothered.

He never intended to appeal to vain people, being preoccupied with a more enduring beauty.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: skarpi
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 07:41 AM

!!!!!!!!(((((((( LOVE )))))))!!!!!!!! he was a man kind with a lot of love and care .


that is who he looked like a BIG LOVE , but some mankind full of greedy
and power blinded of that they they took it away from those who would follow hill , be able to give away from your self to help others
that is a gift we all have.

But Sadly in this world of man kind not everyone things like that.

atb Skarpi


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 04:26 PM

As a T-shirt I once saw said " Jesus had long hair (and look what happened to him)"

But seriously, we have nothing to go on, other than the reasonable assumption that he (sorry, He) was a Jew. Most of what we "know" about Jesus is faith and interpretation rather than verifiable historical fact, so what He actually looked like is really irrelevant.

How people represent Jesus is a different matter..


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:50 PM

How 'bout this representation of Jesus?

http://www.joyfulnoiseletter.com/risen_Christ.asp

Yes, he still looks more European than he should, but other than that, this piece of artwork shows a fairly radical new take on his spirituality and, well, attitude. I kinda like it.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 03:54 PM

Looks like he's got a Bud in the other hand ...


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 05:25 PM

Of course there are two Jesuses - the young radical rabbi with his message of peace, intransigence and stringent Judaism, and Paul's reworking of his message as a messianic cult.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 02:45 PM

"What did Jesus look like?"


                He might have looked like he was confused!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:14 PM

I think he looked like every mother's son.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: MaineDog
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:15 PM

It's clear that His appearance was quite unremarkable. Eealy in his career he was able to pass through a crowd and escape, when they were attempting to throw him over a cliff.
Later on, the Romans had to get Judas to betray him, because, again, He looked like any other Jew, He didn't stand out at all, even from the company of eleven disciples.
MD


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:41 PM

Interesting...no stage outfit for the gigs then?

Most priests and preachers do something to draw the attention. I mean he wasn't a fool - he would have done what was necessary.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:02 PM

Yeah, look what Jeramiah Wright does to draw attention to himself!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Bee
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:36 PM

I noticed the Shroud of Turin came up.

http://www.sillybeliefs.com/shroud.html

Quote: "There are serious anatomical problems with the image. Jesus' face, body, arms, and fingers were unnaturally thin and elongated (like figures in Gothic art), his left forearm was longer than his right, and his right hand is too long. The man is impossibly tall, being 6ft 8in (2.03m). The head is disproportionately small for the body, the face unnaturally narrow and the forehead foreshortened, and ears lost. The front and back images, in particular of the head, do not match up precisely, and the back image is around 2 inches (5cm) longer than the front. The back of the head is wider than the front of the head. The Shroud image is, in fact, so unusually very long and narrow that one pro-Shroud pathologist suggested that Jesus must have had Marfan's syndrome!"

So, if the Shroud is authentic, then Jesus was a skinny giant with a small, misshapen head, and one short arm, who appeared to have a serious genetic disorder. You'd think one of the Apostles might have mentioned that in passing...


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,sinky
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:03 PM

like that hairy guy who plays rugby for france


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:06 PM

"...the face unnaturally narrow and the forehead foreshortened, and ears lost."


                         You gotta wonder how he lost his ears, huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:05 PM

There is a beautiful 2 part documentary on PBS titled the face of Jesus. The art alone is worth a viewing.

Semetic people are certainly bronze in color.

Don't believe a word Jorn said. He was the original sexist and racist "Republican" of the bunch. He sold out Mary in a heartbeat.
He may have been a closet gay jealous SOB for all I know.


White people are merely a recent adaptation to living in sunless/low sun level enviorments. The advantage is in being able to synthesize vitamin D in low light conditions by allowing more light to reach receptors in the skin. or so I've been told.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Slag
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:46 PM

Well, you knew I'd chime in at some point, didn't you? First let me say that some of you are never going to get it that Little Hawk is nothing but a figment of that crazy simian, Chongo. He baits you and you all go for it every time!

So, what did the Apostle Paul really look like? How about Saint John the Divine? Andy Devine? Zachariah? Daniel? Who really cares?

The Isaiah prophecy say that he (the Messiah) would be very ordinary in appearance. In the negative, he wouldn't be head and shoulders above the rest (contrast with the image of King Saul), he wouldn't be handsome and when the mobs were through with him, he wouldn't be recognizable at any rate (Isaiah 53)! If you think about it theologically, you would see that if it was the physical appearance of him that drew the crowds it would be a thing of the flesh, not of the spirit. It was the words of Jesus that both attracted and repelled people.

But! There is some internal evidence of his appearance. When he was seen in public the people hailed him as "Rabbi" that is, as a Jewish religious teacher and as such he must have worn the traditional garb and his hair and facial hair would have looked very much like the Hasidim of today, the orthodox Jews. If you don't want to view him as divine consider the accounts of how he escaped the Pharisees on several occasions. He just turned into the crowd and was lost from view. The perfect spy who looks like everybody and nobody at all.

I'm really tempted to sermonize but I will spare you. Just think about what the ones who nailed him to the cross looked like? I think they looked a lot like you and me.

Lastly for you who don't believe that Jesus was a historical reality; isn't it then all the more amazing how much this one non-existent person change the entire world? It also strikes me as to how the followers of this non-existent person were willing and able to face the most grim and torturous deaths rather than deny him. And among those who laid down their lives were those who claimed to have known him during his time upon the Earth.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:19 PM

I have it on good authority that Jesus looked a lot like Weelittledrummer...to begin with. And he sounded a fair bit like Rinslinger too.

But he realized that that just wouldn't do!

So when he went to the Mystery Schools in Egypt, he got a complete makeover and training in posture, elocution, and presentation that radically altered his appearance into one far more suitable for his public role.

The rest is history. ;-)

Damn good thing about those fashion and posture consultants at the Mystery Schools. Without them, you'd all still be worshipping Baal!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:19 PM

You just can't argue with success!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:21 PM

So true.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Slag
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:29 AM

So Chongo! You're a mystery to me!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:30 AM

Why else d'you think Andrew Lloyd Webber wrote a musical about him - he recognised a kindred spirit. The Showbiz zeitgeist!


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:58 AM

I don't kno nuffink about scheitgeist WLD, but I knew Jesus and you ain't no Jesus. First, those two fingers are supposed to be together and the other way round. Second, you not got no stingmata. Fourth, your heart aint on the outside. And tenth and lastly, you can't turn water into wine.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:04 AM

Ossama Bin Laden released an audio tape yesterday vowing that recent European cartoons showing the face of Mohammed will not go unavenged.

The 13th century of the war between inconoclasts and anti-iconoclasts is still hanging on with the help of the some ol religion of peace Islam.

Religious nuts of Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths have at one time or another decreed that picturing the face of dieties is a sin.

Eastern faiths have not run into this kind of intolerent idiocy to my knowledge. In fact they have always relied on the artful hand of man to demonstrate the various aspects of God. They have even depicted the aspect of the unknowable.
Of course to the muslim Taliban the 3,000 year old statues of Budda must be destroyed.

By the Way... the nose of the Great Sphinx was defaced by a muslim fundamentalist and not Napolean cannon fire as historic rumor implied.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:19 AM

picturing the face of dieties is a sin... and rightly too!.

By the way, the Bamyan Buddhas were "only" about 1500 years old, not 3000- that would put them 500 years older than Buddha himself. And what would Gautama have said about them I wonder? Statues are objects, material possessions, and what goes up must come down?


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:26 AM

I think he was probably fat, bald, and with buck teeth.

I defy anyone to show that I'm wrong.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:56 AM

Good editorial correction PMB


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:57 AM

Uncle Dave, you have described Budda. you might be on to something.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:13 AM

I dunno if this has been pointed out yet, but the accepted gospels are only a fraction of the earliest writings about Christ. The Gnostic Gospels, or Apocrypha, comprise another 20-odd "books" of writings. The 4 recognised gospels which comprise the New Testament were legitimised by the early church, but that doesn't make them any "truer" than the Gnostic Gopels, which hold a wealth of information about Jesus and his times. But the early Christian Spin Doctors threw out the bits they didn't like.

The idea that we have a prescribed set text of "facts" about Jesus in the New Testament is flawed, and without the Gnostic Gospels there can only ever be a fragment of the informaton and ideas which comprised the original Christian faith(s).


I was taught by nuns from southern Italy who used to tell us great stories about Christ's childhood that were drawn from the Apocrypha; I've been told since that they could have ben excommunicated for this. I remember the story in the English folk song The Bitter Withy being told to us, about Jesus drowning the princes who wouldn't let him play with them; and another about how Jesus used to carve birds in Joseph's workshop and breathe life into them, so that they flew around.

Of course, according to the accepted gospels, his frst miracle wasn't till Caana.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:19 PM

Yes, there is an absolute wealth of information to be found in writings about Jesus that were NOT included in the officially sanctioned Bible as we know it. That is a fact that seems to escape most people, both Christians and non-Christians. They spend their whole lives either using the Bible as the one and only true source about Jesus...or attacking it as the one and only false source about Jesus.

In either case they are missing the forest over one particular small grove of trees.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Slag
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 12:08 AM

Ruth, et al, It is called hermeneutics: an internal logical agreement which unites certain writings and excludes others. A lot of the "infancy gospels" were like the Superman funny books of their day. They were not taken seriously. Others, such as the Book of Enoch are a little more problematic. Some of the writers of both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament clearly believed that they were inspired by God to write what they wrote, as this is what they tell us from their writings! Other writers may not have felt they were divinely inspired but enlightened readers have believed they were. The Council of Nicaea sought God's leading as they began to put together the various letters and writings which circulated through the Christian community of that time. Their "inspiration" is taken on faith as well as the coherent hermeneutic of the final compilation.

This does not mean that there is not a debate that still goes on today and the schools of higher criticism have done much to reconstruct the processes which brought about the New Testament as well as the Torah. That it was humans and the language of humans which inked this "Word of God" is undeniable and undenied! And yet it IS the Word of God to those who believe. Why couldn't God, being God, use the voice and the writings of men He inspired to deliver His word?

The topic was the appearance of Jesus which is undeclared in the Bible. If you want to write a book which asserts something different, write your own book and see how it fairs the test of time.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 05:49 AM

I realise that this was the topic - my point is simply that it's not even worth speculating about, when the available information that exists about Jesus is limited by the exclusion of a number of texts.

Not sure about the "Superman comic books" gospels, but there were certainly some gospels which challenged the supremacy of St Peter as Christ's choice for the first pope, proposing Mary Magdalene instead. These were taken sufficiently seriously to spawn Magdalene cults in the first centuries after Christ's death.

BTW, I'm not going all Da Vinci Code here - I've never even read it, though I remember thinking that the book that spawned it, The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, was a thouroughly entertaining (though completely preposterous) read.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Slag
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 07:26 AM

And point well taken. The mystery cults and various cults of Jesus all vied for supremacy. I remember seeing a photograph of an early depiction of Jesus on a catacomb wall in which he carried a wand! Whether it was a symbol or an agency of magic, only that early cult knew but the message for us today is that there was really no uniformity in the early years of the Christian Church.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 09:06 AM

I sawed some iron stone in half and Behold

the face of Christ emerged.

alert the mudia !!!!!!!!!

I will show it only to those who believe

The face of Christ, with a rather long beard, is looking at Mary who appears wistful.

I could seriously make a big ebay bruhaha









why didn't he get a close shave every morning like we do?????


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 10:10 AM

Jesus in a rock:

http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don1/jfc1.jpg


http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don1/jfc3.jpg


http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don1/jfc4.jpg


http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don1/jfc6.jpg


Sepia tones only
http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don1/jfc.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 10:40 AM

Jesus, Donuel!! Your pattern recognition circuits have been fried by that vegetation you've been smoking. I just see a sawed rock!

There is a reasonable school of thought would argue that Jesus didn't "look like" anything, because he is a composite fictional amalgamation of bits and pieces of ancient mythologies and legends put together. OF course, this would be an unacceptable concept to even think about if you had invested emotion and spiritual energy and sweat and adulation into forwarding the legend. But the possibility needs to be faced that what we have been worshipping, lo, these many centuries is actually, strictly speaking, a figment.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 10:55 AM

My son sees moldy bread.


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Subject: RE: BS: What did Jesus look like?
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 09:08 AM

I have done about 6 portraits of Jesus. some were the day before Easter, a month before and the night before.
Many people have depicted the baby Jesus but I have never ever seen the teenage Jesus done in asny format.


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