BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,orif
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:41 PM

Counter Example:

While Syria possessed the Golan Heights, Israel had difficulty controlling, settling, and expanding on its own land. Syrians shelled civilians and attacked across the border. For years.

After 1967 war, Israel took over the Golan Heights. Syrian civilians have not been harmed and Israel started no battles across this line. Syrians tried to invade it in 1973 but fortunately they lost.

There are people here who ignore the facts and blame Israel for fighting back. They are disappointed that Israel casualty figures are low. What kind of fare shake can be obtained from these people. Why should Israel care what they think? Most of these people have not acknowledged that Israel has a right to exist, while they claim there is some Palestinian state that does. There has never been a 'Palestinian' state.

When Allies invaded Normandy these same people would be ahgast at the unprovoked carnage, and they would blame the Americans and English for the French civilian casualties and say that both sides were to blame equally. Too bad there was no United NAtions then to make them all play fair and balance the deaths evenly on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:33 PM

I have received two e-mail from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in the last two days. Nothing is new or earthshaking. However, to respect the sender I will summarize:

1) Hezbollah (which the sender spelled with a Hiz) has to pull back from the border and stop firing missiles at civilian targets in Israel. When that happens there WILL be an immediate cesae fire on the part of Israel.

2) Israel is working as hard as it can to get foreigners out of Lebanon.

#####################################################

FACT: With the firepower Israel has available, if indeed they were targeting civilians, the death toll would be in the thousands if not tens of thousands. Read number 1) above and send messages to Hezbollah. See if they will listen to reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:24 PM

dianavan,

You and CarolC have ignored my comments that the Israelis DO NOT TARGET civilians, and Hezbollah and Hamas DO. Yes, there are CIVILIAN CASUALTIES IN lEBENON- Israel targets the launch SITES of THE UNGUIDED, AREA BOMBARDMENT rockets that Hezbollah, having gotten 10 to 12 THOUSAND from the Iranian army stocks, is using to attack CFIVILIAN -NOT MILITARY- areas of Israel. If Hezbollah launches them from civilian areas, in violation of the Geneva conventions, THEY are to blame- YET YOU BLAME ISRAEL.

If Israel WAS targeting civilians, I think they could do better than 183 dead in a week- Even your friends the insurrectionists in Iraq are doing more than twice that.

So, I expect you to acknowledge the restraint that the Israelis have shown, given the few civilian casualties in Lebenon, IN SPITE of the best efforts of Hezbollah to make this a bloddbath of innocents.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:11 PM

"It should not inflict "collective punishment" on the Palestinians or Lebanese. Yet, when it decides on what might be called "individual punishment" — that is, taking out people who have, and who don't deny holding, significant positions in organisations such as Hamas and Hezbollah — then this is condemned too." From the article linked above.

Hello...?   Since when is collective punishment better than individual punishment? Who has condemned Israel for taking out people of significance in Hamas and Hezbollah? Besides that, whoever said revenge ever solved anything? Everybody knows that punishment does not work.

If this is the best reasoning Israel can come up with, its time to start fearing Israel as much as we fear terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:03 PM

"Why is Israel bombing the barracks of the Lebanese Army if its the Lebanese Army they want on the border?

Why are they bombing Christian sea ports if they're after Hezbollah?

Why are they targetting areas outside traditional Shiite areas?"

Because that is where Hezbollah is.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:54 PM

"Israel has a very big choice to make."

Easy for you to say so dianavan. What stand would you make if you where an Israeli?? It's a lot more complicated ... arm chair critics can draw easy solutions.

I wish .. there where some Israeli Mudcatters here, or Lebanese ... they could post their opinions ... they're input would be the ones I'd listen to.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:39 PM

Yes, there are plenty of deaths on both sides but you have to admit, beardedbruce, that the number of Lebanese civilians killed far exceed the number of Israeli citizens killed.

Will the number of civilians killed pave the way to a peaceful resolution? No. It will only engender more hatred toward Israel and create more terrorists. Regardless of right and wrong, Israel must negotiate a peaceful resolution to end the hostilities. Releasing Arab women and children from prison in exchange for the soldiers would be a good start.

Investigating Israeli soldiers for the unprovoked murder of Arab children would be another. Its one thing to be right but another thing to do what is right. Sometimes that means being compassionate and realizing that we all have the same basic needs. Killing the children of your neighbors does not make for peaceful co-existence.

I see no difference between terrorists and trigger happy Israeli soldiers. At this point, I don't even think its about land. Its about revenge and the Israelis are as vengeful as the Arabs. Maybe its time the Israelis took the moral high ground. If they don't, the rest of the world will be their judge and the Jews of the world will bear the burden. Thats what happens when you choose to be feared and hated rather than admired.

Israel has a very big choice to make. They can lead the way to peace or they can continue to make war.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:25 PM

... The Digitrad of MidEast History.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:21 PM

Someone should dig through all the posts regarding the mideast ... edit them onto one big post and create a new thread ... called the History of the Mideast Then until now according to the Mudcat (not necessarily correct) .... this would eliminate anymore of these long hot aired rants from from those who want to express their knowledge of mid-east history ... all that would be required are daily updates to keep the thread recent and up-to-date.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:14 PM

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_ww1_british_mandate.php

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:13 PM

for those who can't click...

"In 1923 the British "chopped off" 75% of the proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian Nation of "Trans-Jordan," meaning "across the Jordan River." The Palestinian Arabs now had THEIR homeland... the remaining 25% of the original Palestinian territory (west of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland. However, sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then or now and they were determined to get ALL of that remaining 25%. Encouraged and incited by growing Arab nationalism throughout the Middle East, the Arabs of that small remaining Palestinian territory launched never-ending murderous attacks upon the Jewish Palestinians in an effort to drive them out. Most terrifying were the Hebron slaughters of 1929 and later the 1936-39 "Arab Revolt." The British, at first tried to maintain order but soon (due to the large oil deposits being discovered throughout the Arab Middle East) turned a blind eye. It became obvious to the Palestinian Jews that they must fight the Arabs AND drive out the British."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:07 PM

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp


Guest, whoever

There was plenty of attacks on innocents by BOTH sides. As long as you are unwilling to recognize that fact, you have nothing to add to this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 03:59 PM

I seem to remember that the Zionists did lot of terrorising to get its hijack state including hanging British soldiers,blowing up the King David Hotel , slaughtering over a hundred in the process and massacring Palestinians right across the country from Deir Yassin to Tantura........and of course the Israeli state is still murdering,bombing and terrorising.
Thank goodness there are Israelis who do not support the terror strategies of their government because it is becoming clearer with each passing year that its ugly militarism, its thuggish behaviour and its military expansionism is leading Israelis to a dead end.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 03:03 PM

"Jul. 10, 2006
Israel Invades Gaza. That is in response to an attack from Gaza that killed two Israelis and wounded another, who was kidnapped and brought back to Gaza ...which, in turn, was in response to Israel's targeted killing of terrorist leaders in Gaza...which, in turn, was in response to the indiscriminate shelling of Israeli towns by rockets launched from Gaza.

Of all the conflicts in the world, the one that seems the most tediously and hopelessly endless is the Arab-Israeli dispute, which has been going on in much the same way, it seems, for 60 years. Just about every story you'll see will characterize Israel's invasion of Gaza as a continuation of the cycle of violence.

Cycles are circular. They have no end. They have no beginning. That is why, as tempting as that figure of speech is to use, in this case it is false. It is as false as calling American attacks on Taliban remnants in Afghanistan part of a cycle of violence between the U.S. and al-Qaeda or, as Osama bin Laden would have it, between Islam and the Crusaders going back to 1099. Every party has its grievances--even Hitler had his list when he invaded Poland in 1939--but every conflict has its origin.

What is so remarkable about the current wave of violence in Gaza is that the event at the origin of the "cycle" is not at all historical, but very contemporary. The event is not buried in the mists of history. It occurred less than one year ago. Before the eyes of the whole world, Israel left Gaza. Every Jew, every soldier, every military installation, every remnant of Israeli occupation was uprooted and taken away.

How do the Palestinians respond? What have they done with Gaza, the first Palestinian territory in history to be independent, something neither the Ottomans nor the British nor the Egyptians nor the Jordanians, all of whom ruled Palestinians before the Israelis, ever permitted? On the very day of Israel's final pullout, the Palestinians began firing rockets out of Gaza into Israeli towns on the other side of the border. And remember: those are attacks not on settlers but on civilians in Israel proper, the pre-1967 Israel that the international community recognizes as legitimately part of sovereign Israel, a member state of the U.N. A thousand rockets have fallen since.

For what possible reason? Before the withdrawal, attacks across the border could have been rationalized with the usual Palestinian mantra of occupation, settlements and so on. But what can one say after the withdrawal?

The logic for those continued attacks is to be found in the so-called phase plan adopted in 1974 by the Palestine National Council in Cairo. Realizing that they would never be able to destroy Israel in one fell swoop, the Palestinians adopted a graduated plan to wipe out Israel. First, accept any territory given to them in any part of historic Palestine. Then, use that sanctuary to wage war until Israel is destroyed.

So in 2005 the Palestinians are given Gaza, free of any Jews. Do they begin building the state they say they want, constructing schools and roads and hospitals? No. They launch rockets at civilians and dig a 300-yard tunnel under the border to attack Israeli soldiers and bring back a hostage.

And this time the terrorism is carried out not by some shadowy group that the Palestinian leader can disavow, however disingenuously. This is Hamas in action--the group that was recently elected to lead the Palestinians. At least there is now truth in advertising: a Palestinian government openly committed to terrorism and to the destruction of a member state of the U.N. openly uses terrorism to carry on its war.

That is no cycle. That is an arrow. That is action with a purpose. The action began 59 years ago when the U.N. voted to solve the Palestine conundrum then ruled by Britain by creating a Jewish state and a Palestinian state side by side. The Jews accepted the compromise; the Palestinians rejected it and joined five outside Arab countries in a war to destroy the Jewish state and take all the territory for themselves."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,orif
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 03:02 PM

Empty Words. Still the Palestinians inherit the leavings of others and obey the inverse of the meek shall inherit the earth. They are given Gaza and choose to destroy buildings left to them, to mis-use agricultural goods left to them, to construct weapons and fire them into Israeli territory, to invade Israeli territory and kill Israelis.

Lebanon made a pact with the devil, the kind of pact that allows armed men to attack their neighbor unprovoked. The Hez'b'Allah are beholden not to the government of Lebanon but to their idolacized leader Nas'r'ullah and to their Iranian financiers. They have been building a large collection of rockets to hit Israeli cities with.

The Palestinians as the saying goes, never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. If they had made peace before 1967 they would have a wealthy economy now, and there would be no issue about enough water. If they had made peace immediately after the '67 war they would still have had most of these. If they had made peace under Arafat, they would have not so much but more than they have now. They are operating under some long held but erroristic beliefs:

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Rather than me and my opponent feeling better, my opponent must suffer at all costs.

If Israel was gone they would fight each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:39 PM

I write to attempt an answer to dianavan's questions.
Israel's response to the capture of one of its soldiers is to destroy another country-ensuring that another generation will regard Israel as its enemy.In Palestine ,likewise, it has again unleashed terror on a monstrous scale.
The attack on civilians in both Gaza and the Lebanon has been vicious and indiscriminate. Both are in ruins with hundreds dead or wounded.
There is a real possibility of both Iran and Iraq being dragged into the conflict and only last week Israeli warplanes buzzed a palace belonging to the Syrian president Assad.
There are some in the White House who want to use the claim that Iran has supplied missiles to Hezbollah as the red light for an attack on Iran.
There is a real possibilty that the slaughter will spread.This is the most dangerous and bloody development in the region since Bush ordered "Shock and Awe"...the assault on Iraq using hundreds of cruise missiles and thousands of bombs in the first few weeks of the invasion.
dianavan is correct to point out that Israel is attacking the christian areas of The Lebanon in its orgy of desruction. It does not only seek to destroy Hezbollah it seeks to totally dominate the Lebanon itself.The thing the extremist Zionist leadership of Israel believes it can accomplish is the pulverising and humiliation of its neighbours whether in Gaza,on the West Bank or in the Lebanon.

But dont think this is something new.Israel smashed up the Lebanon 18 years ago raining death down on Beirut and the other cities in the country.It has violated Lebanese territory ever since the 1960s with its invasion,mass air raids,car bombs, assassinations ,occupation of Beirut,massacres in the refugee camps,its savage allies in the buffer zone ,laying down of 170000 mines in the country [which are still there ] and its occupation of the south.
In Palestine the story has been a similar one.Palestinian camps have been destroyed, Palestinian leaders arrested or murdered, some 160,000 acts of imprisonment have been inflicted on the Palestinians,9000 are still in jail including women and children and the civilian population of this non Israeli land have been brutalised in a thousand different ways.
But Israel will not get its way and still the Palestinians rise!!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 12:28 PM

Why is Israel bombing the barracks of the Lebanese Army if its the Lebanese Army they want on the border?

Why are they bombing Christian sea ports if they're after Hezbollah?

Why are they targetting areas outside traditional Shiite areas?

Why does Israel think they can accomplish anything by indiscriminate killing?

Looks to me as if Israel is attacking Lebanon rather than seeking out Hezbollah. Seems to me that Israel wants a full scale war.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:55 AM

Israel has not provided them with water. Israel has confiscated their water. It's their water.

Israel is taking the vast majority of the water in the limited aquifer under the West Bank for Israel's use (and for the settlements), and it has forbade the Palestinians even from using wells that existed before the start of the occupation. And it has destroyed many others. It has placed rations on their use of water, while wasting large quantities of it on non-essential uses.

Israel is committing ethnic cleansing by depriving the Palestinians of the basic necessities of life... food, water, and shelter. Do you condemn this practice, Dave?

Nope. Yours is the vitriol. I'm just presenting the FACTS.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:42 AM

No CarolC I do not support expansion or settlements in the West Bank it is an illegal act to begin with. I condem the Palestinians for not spending time effort and money into solving the water supply problem themselves, since Israel has provided them with water despite the fact they wish to destroy Israel. Perhaps if Hamas were to spend a fraction of the money in foreign aid on farming and desalination plants instead of missiles and weapons it might help? I am sure if the Israelis withdrew fron the Golan heights water would be diverted away from them; and they would not only be dehydrated but be bombarded by more missiles into the bargain. Tough call isn't it?

The only vitriol is produced by you CarolC, and I am not interested in debate with someone as childish and unstable as you, get help and chat with someone who cares.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:57 AM

More vitriol from Dave, I see.

CarolC you have gone too far this time. I do not nor have I ever supported any such thing.

Do you support the expansion of settlements in the West Bank, Dave?

Do you condemn the government of Israel for depriving the Palestinians in the West Bank of most of their water resources (forcing them to survive on a mere fraction of the water that is considered necessary for normal living, like, for instance, for washing, bathing, and watering their crops - while Israeli settlers in the West Bank use the Palestinians' precious water to water their lawns and fill their swimming pools)? Do you condemn that practice, Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:38 AM

Where's Walt?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:34 AM

Two American citizens were savagely assaulted by Israeli security officers at the main crossing point from Jordan in to Israel _the Allenby Bridge.
Tina Hannounah a 47 year old American banker of Palestinian origin was badly beaten along with her 17 year old son ,Michael who suffers from chronic heart problems.They were in the country to visit family.
Michael was grabbed at the checkpoint by a security officer who shouted at him in arabic_a language he does not speak.Apparently the officer was after Michael's new ipod.
The officer then savagely beat Tina [her face can be viewed on the Palestine News Network ].
There have been at least 100 similar incidents reported at checkpoints during the past year.Only 10 official replies have been offered.This sort of harassment and beating and humiliation is the regular fare for the Palestinian people who are treated in a callous way by Israeli security and occupation forces.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:25 AM

"In 1989 the Lebanese parliament accepted an Arab-brokered peace accord for national reconciliation, and Syria assisted Lebanon's national army to control the country's various factions. The activities of Hezbollah, which Syria had used as a proxy in its efforts to combat Israel, were momentarily put in check, but the group had built cultural and political institutions that would insure its survival into the post-civil war era."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:21 AM

The rockets used against Israel are fired from trucks who purposely do it from the shelter of Mosques, Hospitals, Appartment buildings and schools. When the plot indicates a target the Israelis fire back or do an air attack and of course the truck is gone and the casualties are classed as non combatants. Rather like the RPG's and snipers, who surround themselves with women and children in the hope the israelis will not shoot back, or that when they do the collateral damage can then be used against them in the international press.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:11 AM

Israel has said they would call a halt to the Lebanon front if the soldiers are returned and Hezbollah withdraws from the border and is replaced by Lebanese army regulars. Please send e-mails to Hezbollah and tell THEM about it, OK, Walt? You'll do some good there. And I'm sure they will listen to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Walt
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:02 AM

A HARD RAIM IS GONNA FALL
Israeli's attack on the Lebanon is codenamed "Summer Rain ".It should have been called Hard Rain.The capture of two soldiers in the north and one in Gaza has been the excuse for the Israeli High Command to unleash death and destruction on an industrial scale mainly against the civilian population of the Lebanon and Gaza.

Apartment blocks,houses ,hospitals and offices have been hit.Bridges,cars,ambulances and power plants have been blown up in an act,an illegal act, of collective punishment.

The slaughter in both Gaza and the Lebanon has been indiscriminate.

It has never been about the capture of the three soldiers.They could have been freed by now along with hundreds ofPalestinian women and children who have been illegally detained by Israel in appalling conditions.One Lebanese man was arrested in 1979 as a 16 year old!


Tens of thousands of Lebanese were killed by the Israeli war machine during the last invasion and destruction of the Lebanon.But the result was the formation of Hezbollah which eventually drove Israel out of the south of the country which it had occupied for 18years.

The result of this bout of mayhem and state murder will also have far reaching consequences that Israel is unlikely to welcome.
The Zionist extremists who are in power in Israel have always wanted a Greater Israel .To achieve it they will have to wade through a river of blood.
Walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 07:03 PM

Carol:

I meant you were a strong contender for your viewpoint, as is Hanan Ashrawi an excellent representative for hers.

Guest, Hugo:

As Abba Eban observed regarding Israelis and Arabs living in peace, it is possible once all other avenues have been tried. It should be observed that house demolition is practised by Palestinian authorities as well on those whom they disfavor. Extrajudicial torture and murder of Palestinians accused of cooperating with Israelis has also been practised (by Palestinians).

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,James
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:57 PM

EMERGENCY DEMONSTRATION
                     IN SUPPORT OF
                  GAZA AND THE LEBANON

       ASSEMBLE 12 NOON    THE EMBANKMENT, LONDON
                     SATURDAY 22 ND JULY

The demonstrators will be demanding an end to the savage attack on Gaza and the Lebanon

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Josh
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:53 PM

Residents in the Rafah and Beit Hanoun area of Gaza are now existing under the direct rule of Israeli occupying troops.Today at least three residents have been killed and eleven injured including two journalists and two paramedics .There has been a forced exodus of the population into other parts of Gaza but some 30 000 are suffering from the attacking Israeli army.
Houses are being bulldozered,detention centres set up in houses and civilians are being used as shields.Dozens have suffered from glass shrapnel An ambulance has been shot up and its crew wounded.
Josh

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:37 PM

SHALL WE DESTROY OR SHALL WE BUILD?
The Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions today posted on its website information about its 4th annual workcampin the Palestinian town of Anata on the West Bank.

Around 30 International volunteers ,Israelis and Palestinians have been working to build a home for the Hamden family.This Palestinian family consists of an elderly couple together with their son,his wife and their four children.Their family home was demolished by Israeli occupation forces in 2004.

Today was spent clearing the site and putting in concrete foundations which was difficult as plastic bullets were being fired by the occupation forces nearby.

Since 1967 12000 Palestinian homes in the illegally occupied West Bank have been demolished by the Israel armed occupying forces.

What is encouraging about the work of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions is that it shows that both Israelis and Palestinians can work together to oppose injustice and brutality.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:15 PM

CarolC you have gone too far this time. I do not nor have I ever supported any such thing. Your post is nasty, childish and very untrue. Your vehement childishness proves you have no regard for fact or real knowledge of the history of the present conflict. It is because you act in such manner you are not worthy of debating with on any subject. The sites I post information are from the web, and as such the only source of information readily available for those who actually want to read about the conflict. Oviously you hate being presented with facts that refute some of your ideas but your manner of argument indicates a rabid personality with obvious mental problems. Tough shit lady

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 05:46 PM

Dave (the ancient mariner) is no more qualified to speak on this subject than any of the rest of us. When he presents his "facts" he is getting them from online sources just like the rest of us. His historical "facts" in his 6 Jul 06 - 10:40 AM post come from this website...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/


But the FACT is that almost all of the fighting leading up to and during Israel's War of Independence, occurrred on land that had been allocated to the "Arabs" by the UN, and from which Israel was in the process of ethnically cleansing all "Arabs".

Also during this time, Israel (through Golda Mier) had struck up an arrangement with the King of Jordan to divvy up the land that had been allocated to the Palestinians and although the King of Jordan did not openly admit to making and adhering to this agreement, he did, nevertheless adhere to it almost to the letter. With the exception of a few parts of old Jerusalem, his forces confined themselves almost entirely to the areas that his agreement with Israel allowed him to take.

Having said that, it goes without saying that Jordan's king was no more entitled to divvy up the Palestinians' land with Israel than Israel was entitled to take land that was given to the Palestinians by the UN.

And Dave is most assuredly not neutral on this subject. He supports continued ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:31 PM

Carol you are the Hanan Ashrawi for the rest of us ;-)

When you say that, robomatic, my hope is that what you mean is this...

"(She) shattered a number of Western stereotypes about Palestinians"

(context here)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:30 PM

This thread reflects the tensions going on over in the middle east (and the tensions, and anger found throughout the world) ... to have peace it must be found within ourselves .... but we are merely humans ... and to me that is not even an excuse.

But .. scoff it off and continue on your angry rants of who is right and who is wrong. It doesn't really matter what you say, it is who you are.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:14 PM

Bill, your accusations against me, when you clearly are not responding to my arguments, but rather to arguments you have invented in your mind and are projecting on to me, hurt my feelings long before I posted my response to you.

Try practicing what you preach for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 02:19 PM

Hezbollah must release soldiers, withdraw to get ceasefire: Israel
Article Tools

Canadian Press

Published: Monday, July 17, 2006

JERUSALEM -- Israel would agree to a ceasefire in its six-day-old offensive against Lebanon if Hezbollah guerrillas agreed to withdraw from border area and release two captured Israeli soldiers, a senior official said Monday.

The official, who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, said Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert had conveyed Israel's position to Italy's prime minister, who is attempting to broker a ceasefire deal.

Israel had previously demanded the full dismantling of Hezbollah as a condition for ending hostilities.

However, the senior official said Israel would agree to Hezbollah merely leaving the border area - with the Lebanese army taking its place.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 02:06 PM

"And by the way, if you (and Israel) insist that killing civilians is justified if a military target is what is being aimed for, then by the same logic, all of Israel's civilian areas are military targets, because members of the IDF (and the proto-Israeli terrorist organizations prior to Israeli statehood) have been cleverly (and insideously) hiding themselves amongst the Israeli civilian population since before Israel declared itself a nation. "


Than you feel that, since the side YOU support DOES hide itself amidst the civilian population, that Israel is JUSTIFIED in killing civilians????? If not, than the Palestinians are wrong in attacking pizza parlors and birthday parties.





"You are, again, placing a much higher value on the lives of Jewish Israelis than on people who are not Jewish Israelis. This is, by the way, racism. "

No, Hamas and Hezbollah are placing that value- re the demands for hundreds to be released for one or two kidnaped Israelis. YOU are supporting the racists, not I.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:57 PM

correction:

"Btw - Both Iran and Syria have said that although they support Hezbollah, they do not supply arms to Hezbollah."

Both Syria and Iran are lying. I cannot hold you responsible for their lies, though your acceptance of them without even looking for any contrary facts does not indicate an interest in finding out the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:43 PM

Dianavan,

Your statment concerning Iran and the Hezbollah rockets is false.

http://www.meib.org/articles/0211_l2.htm

http://www.israpundit.com/2006/?p=1311

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29728

http://www.aijac.org.au/updates/Dec-05/081205.html

"Finally, another strategic expert, this time from the US, Patrick Devenny, looks at the extent of the military and strategic threat posed to Israel by Hezbollah. Devenny particularly highlights the role of the 10,000+ missiles, mostly from Iranian army stocks, which Hezbollah is pointing at Israel. Devenny finds the threat of these missiles quite serious and also a barrier to efforts to deter Iran's nuclear program, and therefore urges an international to remove them."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 12:54 PM

This is hard to do....I am startled by your reply. I tried to say I am upset by BOTH sides actions in this turmoil, but you see only that I am upset by your side's actions. That does NOT equate to defending Israel.


"If you want to engage in reasoned argument, you will take everything that I say that you want to dispute, and you will provide your counter arguments and supporting documentation."

This is precisely the sort of 'list making' I reject. I could never prove a point using this technique, as you would simply provide your lists. I don't know how to respond to arguments which have a great deal of the "When are you going to stop beating your wife?" built into them.

" I can only assume that since you are directing this toward me, you are saying that I have been doing these things. This is not reasoned argument. This is an ad hominem attack. "

..no, I'm sorry...it is not. I explained why I saw certain tendencies in the formyour arguments--I did NOT resort to simply calling you names and denigrating your character to make my point. You seem to have not understood exactly what ad hominem means.


THIS is ad hominem...

"... than you have removed any doubt from my mind about whether or not you are a racist."

"... you don't see the Palestinians as human beings, Bill. It's that simple."

I realize how deeply you hold your views, Carol...but NOTHING I have said above, nor anything I have done in my life deserves that sort of response.

I am sad, hurt, and working hard to avoid simply being offended. I will try to chalk it up to your intense concern.....but I won't debate it with you any more. We have gotten to a point where we can't talk about the same things.

sadly, I am slow to realize that I should just stay away from some issues, as I cannot deal well with the "you are either for us or against us" attitude.

.....(I will NOT reply to further accusations or admonitions in this thread...if that sounds like cowardice or something, so be it...)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 12:47 PM

COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT AND MASS TERROR
Refugees fleeing the Lebanon claim that Israel is indiscriminately bombing civilian targets.One said that he had seen two hospital bombed and the BBC reported today that huge bombs had flattened three apartment blocks in Beirut.
Large fires are raging in Beirut and its port has also been attacked along with power plants,oil depots,houses ,petrol stations ,bridges and motorway flyovers.Hundreds of Lebanese civilians have been reported killed or wounded in the bombing.
The attack on the Lebanon has been marked by this attack on civilians and non military targets. The situation is worsening and some 400000 people are now displaced refugees .Many are sheltering in schools but there is hardly any fuel or electricity. Ambulances have to try to go on missions along roads which are being bombed and strafed and many bridges are destroyed.
Israel's revenge on the people of the Lebanon is taking the form of mass killing,collective punishment and the destruction of the civilian infrastructure.This is a form of state terror with one third of the population of the Lebanon being children. They are being bombed ,strafed and terrorised by one of the technologically advanced armies in the world.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 12:26 PM

NATIONAL EMERGENCY MARCH ON
                WASHINGTON TO DEFEND THE PEOPLE OF
                     PAESTINE AND THE LEBANON

                  12 NOON AT THE WHITE HOUSE
                     12TH AUGUST 2006

                   STOP US AID TO ISRAEL
          SUPPORT THE RIGHT OF RETURN FOR PALESTINIANS
                NO TO WAR AND OCCUPATION

    The march and demonsration is being supported by a wide range of            anti war and Palestinian support groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 10:50 AM

Carol you are the Hanan Ashrawi for the rest of us ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:07 AM

as usual, I am concerned with reasoned argument, even as I am concerned with the rights and suffering of ALL people.

No, I don't think you are, Bill. I don't think your arguments are reasoned at all. You keep saying that people are just making lists of grievances. That is not at all what we are doing. What we are doing is working to help people see why Israel must end the occupation. NOW.

What I see (on both sides of the issue, not just yours, Carol) is a "choosing of sides", then arguments constructed to justify almost anything done by the chosen side. Definitions are streched, comparisons made, questions are mis-represented, unwarrented assumptions are built into statements and conclusions drawn that are ONLY valid IF one accepts those presuppositions, definitions and comparisons.

I can only assume that since you are directing this toward me, you are saying that I have been doing these things. This is not reasoned argument. This is an ad hominem attack. If you want to engage in reasoned argument, you will take everything that I say that you want to dispute, and you will provide your counter arguments and supporting documentation. What you are doing is flinging poo. Poo that you are trying to pass off as reasoned arguments.

Nor do I appreciate having my statement twisted to say that I CALLED your position 'propaganda'. I was referring to the verbal similarities.

I don't see any difference at all between calling what I have said propaganda and comparing what I have said with what you consider to be propaganda. In fact, there is no difference.

I KNOW that the conditions that most Palestinians are forced to live in is unfair and demeaning and does not offer them reasonable opportunities to live meaningful lives....this hurts and saddens me.

Clearly you have no idea of what the conditions are like for the Palestinians or you wouldn't have described their situation in this way.

Neither do I think that Hamas and Hezbolah have reasonable approaches to address those inequities.

Maybe not, but they're the only ones who are fighting for the Palestinians' freedom. Everybody else... including you, are saying that the Palestinians should just suck it all up and not do anything at all to defend themselves.

I simply do not see Jim Crow, Nazis, and Apartheid as examples of what is happening in the Middle East. Nor do I accept at face value that there was any clearly defined "Palestinian lands".

This PROVES that you know nothing at all about their situation. And if you don't see the Palestinians as having any rights to live anywhere at all (which you have just indicated you do not), or any rights to have any rights, than you have removed any doubt from my mind about whether or not you are a racist.

You say that 'occupation IS the provocation'....but IF one accepts that it is clearly 'occupation', why is wanton murder the proper resopnse? Why is not a Martin Luther King or a Mahatma Gandhi non-violent campaign a better idea? Do you just adjust your violence tolerant threshold to define ANYTHING done by the 'oppressed' as justified?

If your view of the Palestinians weren't so colored by your racisim, you would know that there already are Palestinians who have tried that approach. And it has accomplished absolutely nothing. Why are the Palestinians the ONLY people on earth who are not allowed to defend themselves? And if non-violent approaches are the only valid ones, why didn't we just let Gandhi go and stop Hitler from killing Jews?

A number of posts ago, I referred to the Post editorial in which it was claimed that the very existence of Israel was the issue....and as I read your posts, you have come within a whisker of saying just that. "Occupation IS the provocation"

This is a lie, Bill. Israel's survival is in no way dependent upon keeping the Palestinians in the West Bank, and East Jerusalem in bondage. Or the Palestinians in Gaza in permanent lockdown.

What you don't realize, because I am not willing to 'choose sides' and defend either set of arguments, is that I actually SEE the point that it might have been a mistake in 1947 to create Israel at all! At that point the Jews were in 'roughly' the same position that the Palestinians are now, and they had a LOT of sympathy. They clearly needed support and some sort of reparations for centuries of persecution. But why a COUNTRY carved into lands that many people had ethnic & religious claims to?

Well, unlike you, I'm AM NOT arguing that the creation of Israel may have been a mistake. I am arguing that the Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the Israeli stranglehold on Gaza needs to STOP.

Now we have, 60 years later, a practical problem. It is a problem much like many others in the history of the world.....it was DONE...like the 'occupation' of the USA, to the detriment of the Native Americans, the 'occupation' of Mexico by Cortez, to the detriment of the Aztecs, or the creation of Northern Ireland. What do we DO to redress the injuries?

END THE OCCUPATION AND LEAVE THE PALESTINIANS THE FUCK ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hamas, Hezbolah and several countries have stated policies that the situation will not be 'right' until Israel ceases to exist. Therefore, they state that they WILL continue attacks, no matter whether Israel 'withdraws', sits tight or expands. Now, whether they or you) like it or not, Israel IS a country, recognized by the UN, no matter how they got there...and AS a country, one should not be surprised to see them make the case for defending themselves against attack.

If, as you say, the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah will continue even if Israel withdraws, then Israel must withdraw for the simple reason that the occupation is morally reprehensible.

However, you are wrong if you think that withdrawing will not result in a dramatic reduction in violence against Israel. The majority of Palestinians will not allow a minority of extremists to kill their dream of having their own independent nation. They won't be able to guarantee that there will never be any more violence against Israelis, but Israel will be more secure than it has ever been when it ends the occupation. And then Israelis will also have the luxury of not being in the same category of hideousness as all of the other people who slaughter innocent civilians and commit ethnic cleansing.

If you simply, in all cases, define their defense as agression, there is nowhere to go but where it is going....

No, there is somewhere things can go. Israel can END THE OCCUPATION. Why are you not calling for Israel to do that? Because you don't see the Palestinians as human beings, Bill. It's that simple.

I do NOT see Israel saying "sure...we'll just disband as a country"

I am not now, and I NEVER HAVE ARGUED THAT ISRAEL SHOULD DISBAND AS A COUNTRY.

For you to suggest that that is what I have been arguing for is the most blatant of slanders. What I have been arguing for consistantly from the very beginnning is nothing more than for Israel to (I'm putting it in red letters so you can see it this time... you seem to have missed it all of the eleven million times I've said it)

I SUPPORT ISRAEL'S EXISTANCE

WHAT I AM ARGUING FOR IS FOR ISRAEL TO

END THE OCCUPATION


Try paying attention for once, ok, BILL?!?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 02:36 AM

Elliot Bruce has written an important article on the International Solidarity Movement's website showing how Israeli policy is strangling Palestinian life in the Jordan valley.

Palestinian farmers are being squeezed out. They are being separated from their markets, they are being denied water from the river Jordan and Israeli bulldozers trash their fields and orchards.The eastern side of the new apartheid wall is going to surround many of th communities chopping them into little bantustan zones.

If the farmers go to court to try to get justice they have to spend tens of thousands of dollars in order to be lucky enough to win a few thousand dollars compensation.

The Jordan valley is NOT Israeli territory it is illegally occupied and dozens of Zionist farms and settlements are being built there to create "facts on the ground"
Such is the reality ofthe occupation of Palestine by Israel.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:43 AM

The Israelis have the materiel to kill tens of thousands of civilians if that was the intent of the IDF. It isn't their intent. If Hezbollah put down its weapons now, the war would be finished within the time it took to stand down the Israeli forces. The Israelis would stop. But the Israelis will NOT stop as long as they have Hezbollah firing rockets into Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:27 AM

The "Palestinian" supporters are in a self contradictory position. If the Israelis were really as powerful as these pro-terrorists maintain, they could march across borders and institute a pax Israelia". Since they haven't, they are motivated either by the will of Allah, or they are really not that powerful, and are well aware of it. Yet the assuredly wretched and weak Pally's or their surrogates, the terrorist quasi governmental organizations Hamas and Hezbollah are able to penetrate Israeli borders and now send rockets into Israeli cities. So maybe there's a reason for all this Israeli armament, and maybe they need all this armament because they are defenders and typically they don't choose to attack, they must be prepared to defend. If they have the kind of weaponry that everyone claims, why are there not tens of thousands of Arabs being killed? Either they don't have these kinds of weapons, or they are limiting their response.

The Pallys don't need a lot of weapons, they use everything they've got while they've got it, including their bodies. And they are then well recompensed by the Saudis. And get weapons from the Syrians and Iranians and those who can smuggle 'em in.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:16 AM

PS: I too don't think the Lebanese government COULD have forced Hezbollah off the border. It likely would have split the Lebanese troops sent to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:13 AM

Maybe so, D, but the recent Hezbollah attack has had terrible results. I think they pulled the tiger's tail once too often.

However, please understand that I did send that e-mail to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and I will post the reply if I get one. I take no satisfaction at all in kids/civilians from any country or place being killed by anyone's guns, explosives, planes, tanks or rockets.

It would not bother me one iota if every terrorist member of Hezbollah and Hamas were killed right this instant. However, it bothers me greatly that kids are being killed in this bloody war--kids from Israel, Palestine (such as it is), Lebanon, and possibly soon Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:05 AM

My guess is that the reason the Lebanese did not replace Hezbollah with Lebanese soldiers is either they didn't have the capability or perhaps they didn't have the will. Don't forget, Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government and is very popular with the people. What are they supposed to do, go against the will of the people? Even if they did, would they be capable of doing that? I somehow doubt it.

Lets not forget that most Muslims in Lebanon see Hezbollah as their only protection against U.S. and Israeli aggression. If they didn't have Hezbollah and if the Palestinians didn't have Hamas, who would protect the people? Who would stop the aggression? If I were in their shoes, my attitude would be, better the devil you know than the devil you don't.