BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor,
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:28 PM

Anti Zionist Jews ,both secular and religious met with Muslim academics at a conference in London last week called AGAINST ZIONISM :JEWISH PERSPECTIVES CONFERENCE.
The conference roundly condemned Israel's attack on Gaza.Dr Uri Davies an academic called Israel's actions in attacking power supplies a "horrific crime" while Prof Yakov Rabkin said "I am saddened but not surprised by Israel's actions in Gaza.
According to the Jewish socialist John Rose ,author of the Myths of Zionism "The meeting was important because it showed Muslims that there is an anti Zionist perspective inside the Jewish community.
ifor"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:11 PM

Reply to Guest
"not the so called Palestinians" you say....you are refering to the indiginous population of Palestine which had been rooted in that country since biblical and Roman times. Its's not that I call them Palestinians they call themselves Palestinians.
These are the people who lived in that land before it was hijacked by the Zionists .The Zionists who stole their homes and farms ,razed their villages and expelled the Palestinians in droves.
Let it also be noted that politicians like Lord Balfour who proclaimed the necessity for Jewish homeland in Palestine were deeply anti semitic.
The holocaust was commited against the Jewish people by the nazis in Europeand yet it is the Palestinians who right have had to pay for a Zionist homeland with the loss of their land,their cities and their livelihoods.
The Palestinians are mainly muslim but there is a substantial christian Palestinian community that has also suffered at the hands of the Israelis.
It is a bit sickening reading these posts from the Zionists who cannot even bring themselves to call the Palestinians by that name.The Zionists have done their utmost to drive them out of existence but the Palestinians refuse to go gently.
Zionism has poisoned the Middle East ....during the Middle Ages and up to quite recent pre Zionist times there have been lengthy periods when Jews and Palestinians and Arabs have lived alongside each other in peace. While the Zionists keep bombing and shelling, stealing land and humiliating the Palestinian people there will be resistance and struggle.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 04:11 PM

And the UN partition, which the Arabs REFUSAED to accept.

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/part.html

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 04:07 PM

ifor,

"The one million Palestinians in Gaza came from the cities and towns and villages to the north in what is now Israel.They have no right of return"

And if you bothered reading anything that did not apriori match your opinion, you might have noted that, while about 640,000 Moslem Palestinians were displaced by the creation of Isreal in 1948, over 820,000 Jews were driven out of Arab nations. Will you give them back their lands, or do you insist that Jews are not as worthy as Moslems?

The Nation of Israel was mandated by the League of Nations post WW 1 in the same treaties that formed Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Saudi Arabia. Originally, the "Jewish Homeland" was to be the ENTIRE reagion of Tranwsjordan- Present day Jordan, West Bank , and Israel.


Look at what the Jews were given , and THEN tell me about the stealing of land from a peop[le.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp

http://focusonjerusalem.com/maproom.html

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_ww1_british_mandate.php

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:55 PM

ifor, who claims not to be anti-Semitic, only anti-Zionist, also invokes the name of Martin Luther King.

I guess ifor is unaware of Dr. King's support for Zionism and the fact that Dr. King was among the first to equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. In 1968, speaking at Harvard University, Dr. King stated:

"When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews, You are talking anti-Semitism."

Source: "The Socialism of Fools: The Left, the Jews and Israel" by Seymour Martin Lipset; in Encounter magazine, December 1969, p. 24.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:32 PM

I agree with that, ifor. There are aspirations, hopes and dreams worthy of support. However, I do not see those ideals being 'held to' by suicide bombers who kill kids in busses. I also do not see those ideals being put forth by anyone in the mid-East. Not Israel, not the Arab countries, not Iran, not the USA, not the so-called Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:25 PM

There is a USA I thoroughly support...it is the USA that has a long and honourable democratic and radical tradition.

The USA of those like Harriet Tubman and John Brown who opposed slavery. Those in the USA who fought for racial justice like Paul Robeson, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X and James Baldwin.
The USA of the anti Vietnam war campaigners who opposed the war from inside the military in some cases and in civilian life in many instances. The USA of migrant workers, radical New York ,the labour unions and the workers for native American rights.

I certainly don't support Bush and the neo cons,the chickenhawks,the arms dealers and Big Oil.Do you?
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:52 PM

If you mean that, then work for the overthrow of the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:49 PM

Accusations of anti semitism are false.I have been opposed to racism and anti semitism all my life .
However, Zionists and their supporters are unable to face the truth of the history of Zionism, Israel and the Palestinian people.
When they are reminded about the terror tactics used by Zionists and the Israeli state itself they are often quick to respond with wild accusations of anti semitisms despite many of their most trenchant critics being Jewish radicals like Noam Chomsky,Tony Cliff and Abram Leon.
Take Tony Cliff for example, he was born in in Palestine in 1917 into a staunchly zionist family.As a teenager he became an opponent of Zionism after seeing the thuggery dished out by Zionist squads against Palestinian workers.At a subsequent Zionist meeting the teenage Cliff [ or Yigael Gluckstein as he was then known ] was beaten up and threatened with his life for opposing these thugs.

Zionism began in Europe in the 1880s because of the anti semitism faced by the Jewish people in the developing capitalist countries.

However, as Jewish socialist writer John Rose explains in his book THE MYTHS OF ZIONISM there is an older Jewish political tradition than Zionism that drew its strength and inspiration from a sense of universality and respect for learning.From their history as a persecuted people it drew an internationalist perspective and outlook with a respect and sensitivity for all persecuted people.That tradition survives despite Zionism's attempt to suffocate it.

Think back to Apartheid South Africa....one of the biggest supporters of that evil regime was Israel.
My beliefs have nothing to do with living in a black and white world but have everything to do with supporting the oppressed against the oppressor...the victim against the bully.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:43 PM

Maybe this will shed a little light on the subject. Why don't we all read about what is being argued over and then come back to discuss what's happening.


A little lengthy but a good, balanced read.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:54 AM

It must be comforting to live in a black and white world like Ifor does.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:12 AM

eventually only a socialist Palestine will be able to offer any sense of security to all the people of Palestine

So IFOR, if I'm reading your post right, Israel will be a legitimate state when it becomes a socialist paradise, treating those of all faiths and backgrounds equally, and they all live happily side by side, forgetting that they've been killing each other for the last 60 years.


Some might consider this a little optimistic....

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:36 AM

I understand it to have been rather a military wing of Hamas (as distinct from the government as the IRA or "Real IRA" are from Sinn Fein or the government of the Republic of Ireland) that did the deed.

It is possible to view the armed wing of the Governing party as either completely unconnected to the state at all, or for all intents and purposes, another branch of the armed forces, as they are a milliatry force under the control of the governing party, and so under the same control as the regular armed forces.

In my opinion, the truth in this case lies somewhere between the two extremes


If I am right in that then the destruction by Israel of the Gaza civil infrastructure and the seizure by Israel of members of the Hamas government are without justification and are acts of international aggression and acts of war.

They are, regardless of the exact status of the hamas armed wings.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:40 AM

I was looking at a small part of the sequence of events. I may be wrong but I do not think it has been shown that the government of Gaza or the people in general of Gaza were involved in the killing of Israeli soldiers or the kidnapping of an Isreli soldier. I understand it to have been rather a military wing of Hamas (as distinct from the government as the IRA or "Real IRA" are from Sinn Fein or the government of the Republic of Ireland) that did the deed.

If I am right in that then the destruction by Israel of the Gaza civil infrastructure and the seizure by Israel of members of the Hamas government are without justification and are acts of international aggression and acts of war.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:25 AM

But feel free to prove me wrong. Let's hear some condemnation of Palestinian terror attacks against Israeli civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:23 AM

Your post is bullshit, ifor.

Zionism stems from the late 1800s. I think you dislike Jews. Based on what you write, it looks like that. Covering it with a load of crap still leaves it being hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:57 AM

Reply to Bunnahabhain
What a question!You ask if I can accept the state of Israel in any way shape or form?A little recap for you.
Israel was proclaimed in 1948 on land stolen from the Palestinians.The Palestinians were expelled in huge numbers as the Zionist terror gangs and paramilataries were unleashed at places like Deir Yassin where hundreds of them, men women and infants were butchered with knives and guns.
The UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte who was sent in to enforce the partition plan was murdered by the Stern Gang [Yithak Shamir was a member ].
Since 1948 the Palestinians have been hounded,terrorised and slaughtered by one of the most sophisticated military machines in the world.
They have been penned in,denied basic civil or human rights and pauperised.
They have even been murdered in their refugee camps by the thousand.The Israeli general who organised the slaughter of the women and children and old people in the Sabra and Shatilla camps was Arial Sharon [ a man steeped in blood if ever there was one ].

The state of Israel was founded on Palestinian land .The one million Palestinians in Gaza came from the cities and towns and villages to the north in what is now Israel.They have no right of return. It is only through their bitter struggle that they have been recognised across the world as a people...Golda Meir even denied the existence of the Palestinians.
Zionism has poisoned the Middle East.It is a tool of US imperialism.
There is a Jewish tradition in the Middle East which owes nothing to Zionism and eventually only a socialist Palestine will be able to offer any sense of security to all the people of Palestine .Zionism ,by contrast, is sectarian ,militaristic expansionist and hurtling down a deadend to more wars,more conflicts and more disasters.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 09:28 PM

884 people have been murdered and 5932 have been injured in Israel as a result of Palestinian violence and terror attacks between September 2000 and October 2003, according to the Israel Defense Forces.

Lwet's talk about the peaceful Allah.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 09:05 PM

Eliahu Asheri--he wasn't a soldier.

The various organizations don't give a shit who they kill. I am so fucking sick of hearing about Islam and its putrid justifications for crimes against humanity. It is a sick religion used by sick people. You people want the Israelis to sit back and what? Wait for some UN to enforce a peace? The Palestinians have waged a great propaganda war. The end result will be the use of nuclear weapons. Then NO one will have a fucking homeland.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 08:22 PM

Ifor, can you accept the existance of the State of Isreal in any way shape or form? Not asking you to accept its right to occupy land up to this specific boundary or that, or to undertake any particular action, just if you can accept it at all...

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 07:20 PM

GUEST: 02:05 PM

I did it myself, said the little red hen.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 05:49 PM

Israel is determined to take more and more land from the Palestinians -but in the West Bank to the north of Gaza.This is in line with Zionist expansionist policies and it has the military might to achieve its aim of a greater Israel.
However, that depends on cowing the Palestinians and crushing their willingness to fight back.Around a million live in concentrated numbers in Gaza which makes it difficult to invade, subdue and hold.The West Bank with its more scattered and less concentrated population is much easier to invade and intimidate hence the capture of Palestinian representatives in the camps and towns of the West Bank.
But let us alays remember that Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land and illegally oppressing its people with the bulldozing of thousands of houses,the stealing of land, the use of tanks,armoured bulldozers and snipers against civilians and the use of checkpoints to daily humiliate and control the Palestinian people.......But it will ultimately fail. The Palestinians will not live like slaves to the Zionists ...and there will one day be a free Palestine.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 02:05 PM

Hey Freda Underhill, who writes your material? Is it CarolC or Dianavan?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 10:59 PM

"But Mum! He hit me back first!"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 10:05 PM

what kind of a solution is tunneling into Israeli territory, killing two soldiers, kidnapping the third?

Not to carp about it, it is a sad situation, just don't keep blaming the one side that voluntarilly already got out.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 08:25 PM

"the Israelis formally vacated the Gaza territory. "

Does withdrawal mean flying Israeli jets fly low over the land at night, causing sonic booms, sealing off the Gaza Strip so no food, bottled water or fuel supplies are coming in, destroying the power station, destroying the office of the Palestinian prime minister by air strike?

By ignoring offers to negotiate on the return of that Israeli soldier, the Israeli government shows that the only solution acceptable it is a military solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 08:24 PM

If you're implying that Sonny beat Cher or his second wife........???

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 08:20 PM

"He beat her in her own kitchen, but where else was he going to live?"

So who was in the kitchen first? Que Bono?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 05:49 PM

We have much more reason to expect that it is Israel who is lying in this case rather than the Palestinians. And the other cases that I "lumped" together with this one support my contention. That is why I mentioned them in the last post, but not in the previous one. They are in support of my contention that it is most likely the government of Israel that is lying, but not in support of my previous point, which is why I didn't use them previously.

So in other words, you will utilize only factoids that support your contention at any one time, and you will not hesitate to pull in any other factoids (interpreted by those who are biased in the same way as yourself) to support your contention, whatever that may be. In this case you are using your own bias as 'evidence'!


A convenient excuse, but if you look at the timing of the attacks against the background of the peace initiatives that are in play at the time, there is a very clear pattern of the government of Israel using violence against Palestinians as a way to sabotage any peaceful solution to the problem of Israel's occupation and/or blockade of Palestinian territory.

The timing you wish to blame on the Israelis can be blamed just as equally on the Hamas faction which does not wish to be caught in a compromising situation, and has used terror in the past in exactly that manner. Leave us not forget that Abu Abbas was holding the Hamas government's feet to the fire in order to have them adopt the existing Fatah position on the recognition of Israel. This state of affairs suits Hamas most of all.

What a ridiculous thing to say. Where the hell are they going to live? They are living in the area that they have available to them. They belong there. Israel does not have any business concerning themselves with where these people live. If Israel wants to end the violence that is being directed against it by others, all it needs to do is end its far more numerous and far more devastating acts of aggression against others.

You are continuing the broadbrush. If by 'they' you mean terrorists, you are simply utilizing the point I made, that 'they' are making victims of the non-terrorists they live amongst, but you are holding it not against the terrorists, but against the Israelis. That's like defending the wife beater who blames his wife for making him angry. "He beat her in her own kitchen, but where else was he going to live?"

Hardly. The patterns quite evident. They don't require me to point them out. My motivation is the promotion of human rights for eveyone.

Quite laudable. Now if you can only include the legitimate rights of the bulk of Israelis and Palestinians who seek a peaceful solution within your purview....

The motivation of the government of Israel, and apparently your motivation as well, is to clear all of the Palestinians off of the tiny bit of land they have remaining to them.

There y'go again. At least you said 'apparently'. My reference to the "Jewish occupation of Arab lands" drawing above was precisely to remind you who is occupying a tiny bit of land remaining to them, and it has just got smaller as the Israelis formally vacated the Gaza territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 08:22 PM

"Gaza is what, half the width of of a Modern Artillery piece's range?"

But when your opponent is basically reduced to what is similar to throwing stones - the range of those little rockets is very small - the more distance, the better.

When technology is limited (especially due to lack of financial resources), height and distance are still big military advantages.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Ifor
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 02:51 PM

World wide disapproval of Israel? Come off it.It is armed and funded by the greatest superpower _the USA. It was made a regional heavyweight power because of the huge amounts of arms and sophisticated equipment delivered by America.

Then there is the backing of Israel by Europe and the EU nations, another massively important economic and trading block.

What is different is that the image of plucky litttle Israel has been tarnished over the past few decades with, for example ,its invasion of the Lebanon and the deruction by Israel's fascist allies of the Sabra and Shatilla Palestinian refugee camps in the early 1980's. A massacre for which the Israeli man o war Arial Sharon was directly responsible for. The Palestinian uprisings of the late 1980's pitted unarmed civilians fighting with stones against a vicious and extremely well armed Israeli military and as the pictures were flahed around the world support for the Palestinians grew and drained away for Israel.

The liberation of the Palestinian people will arrive one day and will do so when the peoples of the Middle East give practical support to the Palestinian struggle.The road to freedom goes through Cairo. But the Egyptian support will not come from the brutal Mubharak govt.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 10:12 AM

The distruction of the civilian infrastructure of Gaza is a collective punishement, no doubt about it. Israel has gone far too far. But when you think about from the Israeli point of view, what have they go to lose?

Just about anything the Israelis do seems to result in more violence, and worldwide disapproval. If you're damned anyway, you're free to do almost anything, and the desire for retribution must be enormous.

To cease reacting to violence and provocation would take far more trust and patience than either side have, and I cannot see how this cycle will ever end.


I'd not though of that Foolestroupe. After All, Gaza is what, half the width of of a Modern Artillery piece's range?

BTW: Yasser Arafat International Airport has been wrecked and shut for four years. Old news maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 08:08 AM

Makes lots of sense, if you really intend to take it ALL - just gives you room for a defensive fall back position, like the Russians, but shorter... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 08:05 AM

Reply to Bunnahabhain,
To deal with the question of Gaza first. The Israeli simply could not sustain its occupation of Gaza which has a population of over a million Palestinians most of whose families fled there ,or were pushed out,from the towns and cities which are now part of Israel.

Some 8000 right wing armed zionist settlers built fortified enclaves in Gaza protected by the Israeli army. These paramilitaries and the Israeli state controlled the water supplies,the checkpoints and most of the sea front.Gaza was chopped up into zones and to go from one area to another was extremely difficult and time consuming for the Palestinians who were humiliated on a daily basis .An Israeli pullout was inevitable and it duly came last year.

Now Israel seeks to control Gaza at arms length. It still controls the border with Egypt and the air space and coastal waters.Gaza's international airport is now wrecked and closed down.Gaza is shelled on a daily basis and dozens of its people including women and infants have ben killed or wounde since the official withdrawal.Last week the Israeli destroyed its power plant leaving Gaza sweltering without electricity.

The apartheid wall is massive and cuts in to the illegally occupied West Bank.It is another massive land grab by the Zionists.It divides Palestinian farmers from their lands and villages from their hinterland.It again makes life intolerable for the Palestinian peoplewho are effectively penned in like cattle by soldiers with tanks and machine guns.Israel is making facts on the ground and seeks to reduce the Palestinian areas to "bantustan" enclaves with all entry and exit points controlled by the state of Israel.

When the Palestinian West Bank was invaded in 1967 there were no Israeli settlers, now there are hundreds of thousands od Zionists in the occupied territories stealing and occuping land and terrorizing the Palestinians with their armoured bulldozers and tanks and heavily armed paramilitaries.
But the Palestinians are stubborn and have nowhere to go .The occupation of Palestine by Zionists has poisoned relationsships in the region and has poisoned Israeli society itself.It is now the most militarised society in the world .
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 05:22 AM

The motivation of the government of Israel, and apparently your motivation as well, is to clear all of the Palestinians off of the tiny bit of land they have remaining to them.

So the State of Israel is trying to take back Gaza? This is clearly best achived by pulling the settlers off the land, in the face of some determined opposition, and withdrawing the army? And building this massive great wall to divide up two bits of land that you're intending to keep( The exact line of the wall is not relevant )

A wall to divide 'them' and 'us' makes some sense. Please explain how a wall to divide 'us' and 'us' does? Anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 12:06 AM

So, Turkey, Iran, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, and, uh, fucking Armenia are "Arab lands," now? And how short was your bus, robomatic?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 10:35 PM

Yeah, Right

End The Unjust Jewish Occupation Of Arab Lands

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 09:54 PM

"clear all of the Palestinians off of the tiny bit of land they have remaining to them"

Yeah, so they bloody should too - that big old hairy guy up in the clouds SAID it was their's, didn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:57 PM

CarolC you are lumping many different events together in this post, whereas earlier you referred to the single attack, if that is what it was, on the beach. If you stick to that issue, I repeat that Israel denied her forces were behind that attack.

We have much more reason to expect that it is Israel who is lying in this case rather than the Palestinians. And the other cases that I "lumped" together with this one support my contention. That is why I mentioned them in the last post, but not in the previous one. They are in support of my contention that it is most likely the government of Israel that is lying, but not in support of my previous point, which is why I didn't use them previously.

Many attacks made by Israel on Palestinian targets are admitted by Israel, typically in trying to hit a known terrorist figure.

A convenient excuse, but if you look at the timing of the attacks against the background of the peace initiatives that are in play at the time, there is a very clear pattern of the government of Israel using violence against Palestinians as a way to sabotage any peaceful solution to the problem of Israel's occupation and/or blockade of Palestinian territory.

You are attempting to broadbrush a very nasty issue, that of terrorists hiding "in plain site" among their own civilian population.

What a ridiculous thing to say. Where the hell are they going to live? They are living in the area that they have available to them. They belong there. Israel does not have any business concerning themselves with where these people live. If Israel wants to end the violence that is being directed against it by others, all it needs to do is end its far more numerous and far more devastating acts of aggression against others.

You are casting the government of Israel as a character in your own play by seeking to state their motivation

Hardly. The patterns quite evident. They don't require me to point them out. My motivation is the promotion of human rights for eveyone.

The motivation of the government of Israel, and apparently your motivation as well, is to clear all of the Palestinians off of the tiny bit of land they have remaining to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:24 PM

The Israeli army has been pounding the Palestinian people for decades from Gaza to the West Bank,from Beirut to Jenin. The Israeli army has bombed and shelled civilians, demolished thousands of homes and cut down orchards, built an apartheid wall ,set up dozens of checkpoints to keep the Palestinians under its armed fist.
It has shelled and ransacked refugee camps and built illegal Israeli settlements in hundreds of locations on stolen land. The Israeli have stolen water and the children of Palestine are suffering appalling malnutrition while ambulances have been shot up and their clinics and health centres have been wrecked.
Thousands of Palestinians have been imprisoned . During the intifada the Israeli military specialised in breaking the limbs of Palestinian teenagers.
But still the Palestinians refuse to give up!Free Palestine!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:01 PM

Except for the IDF's whitewash of the incident, all of the evidence points to the IDF as the responsible party. And it wasn't just the civilians on the beach. It was also the civilians killed in the air raid on a civilian neighborhood, and the ongoing bombing in civilian areas of Gaza that Israel has been engaging in since its withdrawal from there. If it was just the one incidednt, you and the IDF might be believable, robomatic, but in the context of the many, many bombings of civilians by the IDF in Gaza, you (and they) just aren't.

CarolC you are lumping many different events together in this post, whereas earlier you referred to the single attack, if that is what it was, on the beach. If you stick to that issue, I repeat that Israel denied her forces were behind that attack. You apparently do not accept that denial. I believe when I state the facts I maintain my believability, since I did not actually witness the events and am not a direct witness, (and I suspect you are similar to me in that respect).

And attacking Palestinians on their own territory by a well planned and executed attack is also an act of war. Unless you don't consider Palestinians to be human beings, in which case, you might just see it as the equivalent of squashing a bug. Clearly, that's how the government of Israel sees it.

You are confusing quite a lot of issues here. Many attacks made by Israel on Palestinian targets are admitted by Israel, typically in trying to hit a known terrorist figure. You are attempting to broadbrush a very nasty issue, that of terrorists hiding "in plain site" among their own civilian population. Does this make the Israelis terrorists also, or does it make the Palestinian militants victimizers of their own people like bank robbers who hide behind hostages? As for considering people to be bugs, that is a creation of your own imagination in an attempt to gain forum debate points.

It was a step in the right direction. Obviously, the government of Israel thinks it's a step toward peace. If they didn't, they wouldn't be working so hard to stop it.

You are casting the government of Israel as a character in your own play by seeking to state their motivation. This says more about your motivation than Israel's. I heard the news of the 'implicit' recognition of Israel and had one main reaction: "Here we go again, more of the non-denial denial" The new Palestinian rulers are once again trying to wheedle material support from all sides by letting the world hear what it wishes to hear. This is very well worn step in an old direction trod many years by Arafat.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 11:05 AM

I believe Israel denied responsibility for the beach bombing. Wouldn't be the first time Arabs blew up their own either by mistake, duplicity, or poor aim.

Except for the IDF's whitewash of the incident, all of the evidence points to the IDF as the responsible party. And it wasn't just the civilians on the beach. It was also the civilians killed in the air raid on a civilian neighborhood, and the ongoing bombing in civilian areas of Gaza that Israel has been engaging in since its withdrawal from there. If it was just the one incidednt, you and the IDF might be believable, robomatic, but in the context of the many, many bombings of civilians by the IDF in Gaza, you (and they) just aren't.

Attacking Israelis on their own territory by a well planned and executed attack is an act of war.

And attacking Palestinians on their own territory by a well planned and executed attack is also an act of war. Unless you don't consider Palestinians to be human beings, in which case, you might just see it as the equivalent of squashing a bug. Clearly, that's how the government of Israel sees it.

The story that Fatah and Hamas have contrived an 'implicit' recognition of Israel (within pre-1967 borders) is leaning over so far backwards to find 'recognition' that you are facing your butt.

It was a step in the right direction. Obviously, the government of Israel thinks it's a step toward peace. If they didn't, they wouldn't be working so hard to stop it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 07:02 AM

As I said - from what I once heard in a public place from a couple of little kids...

"So WHO started it!"
"He did!"
"He did!"
"But he hit me back first, Mum!"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:47 AM

The people of Gaza have been held hostage by Israel for many years.Gaza is surrounded by the might of Israeli forces who control its entry points,its air space,the coastal waters and its land borders.
For over three decades the Israeli military illegally and brutally occupied Gaza.Many of the Palestinian Gazans were refugees from the land which is now Israel.
Gaza has been bombed or shelled on an almost daily basis since Israel evacuated illegal settlers in 2005.
Palestinian civilians have been killed,the border with Egypt has been closed down and Palestinian militants have been assassinated.
The Palestinians are demanding the freeing of women and children held prisoner Israeli jails .
Israel intends to inflict a bitter revenge on Gaza ...and the killing and retribution will continue until Palestine is free.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:46 AM

and now there's a catch 22 situation:

Three sides hostage to soldier's abduction
Ed O'Loughlin, smh, June 30, 2006 (excerpts)

PALESTINIAN militants, having achieved their dream of capturing an Israeli soldier alive, cannot now release with him without getting something substantial from Israel in return. Otherwise they will lose face. The Israeli Government, which, like every other government in the world, likes to say it will never negotiate with terrorists, cannot give in to demands for it to free some or all of at least 8000 Palestinian prisoners in return for Corporal Gilad Shalit. Otherwise it will lose face.

The Palestinian Authority's moderate chairman, Mahmoud Abbas, cannot use his supposed control over the Palestinian security forces to have them find and free the captured tank gunner from his hiding place in Gaza. To do so would be to confirm the accusation often levelled at the Fatah party by rival groups during the 12 years that it controlled the authority: that it works for Israel, not for the Palestinians. And then Mr Abbas would probably lose more than his face.

As for the authority's new ruling party, Hamas, nearly all of its ministers and parliamentarians from the West Bank and East Jerusalem are in Israeli prisons, having been rounded up on Wednesday night in what Israel claimed was not a hostage-taking exercise but an investigation into terrorist offences.

But having abducted most of the authority's political leaders, the shaky new government of the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, will find it difficult to release them, or to pull its tanks out of Rafah - or to halt its bombing of civilian infrastructure in Gaza - without being able to show its people that it got something in return. Otherwise it will lose face.

And so on and dismally on...

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:43 AM

this comment from today's Sydney morning herald -

June 30, 2006 - 10:07AM

Palestinian militants had agreed to a conditional release of the kidnapped Israeli soldier, but Israel had not yet accepted their terms, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said in remarks published today. In an interview with Egypt's leading pro-government newspaper, Al-Ahram, Mubarak said "Egyptian contacts with several Hamas leaders resulted in preliminary, positive results in the shape of a conditional agreement to hand over the Israeli soldier as soon as possible to avoid an escalation".

"But agreement on this has not yet been reached with the Israeli side," Mubarak said.

The president said he had asked Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert "not to hurry" the military offensive in Gaza, but to "give additional time to find a peaceful solution to the problem of the kidnapped soldier".

....

I put up a thread for an obituary of an Israeli politican who died earlier in the month. He was a left winger who had instituted the kibbutzim movement, and who was opposed to the occupation of Gaza. How different things could be if people like that had achieved leadership in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 09:49 PM

I believe Israel denied responsibility for the beach bombing. Wouldn't be the first time Arabs blew up their own either by mistake, duplicity, or poor aim.

Attacking Israelis on their own territory by a well planned and executed attack is an act of war. The Israelis want their captured soldier back.

The story that Fatah and Hamas have contrived an 'implicit' recognition of Israel (within pre-1967 borders) is leaning over so far backwards to find 'recognition' that you are facing your butt.

And we ain't in pre-1967 conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 07:45 PM

"But Mum! He hit me back first!"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 07:08 PM

Israel had bombed several civilians (a whole family) on a beach in Gaza during the days just before the Israeli soldier and settler were kidnapped by Palestinians. That was what the Palestinians who kidnapped them were responding to, and why they kidnapped them. Israel's timing is impeccable. Always has been.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:21 PM

Yeah, and Isreal kidnapped and killed their own citizens. Cut me a break here.